1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: This is Bloombird Law with June Brasso from Bloomberg Radio. 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: In two thousand and six, Happy was the first elephant 3 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,919 Speaker 1: to pass a mirror recognition test, which indicates self awareness 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: like humans, and animal rights advocates wanted Happy to make 5 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: history again as the first elephant to be recognized as 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: a legal person entitled to protection against unlawful imprisonment. Happy's attorney, 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: Monica Miller, argued in New York's highest court that Happy 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: is extraordinarily intelligent and autonomous and should be able to 9 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 1: challenge her confinement at the Bronx Zoo through Habeas corpus. 10 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: The scientists are unanimous that elephants aren't just autonomous, but 11 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 1: they're also cognitively complex, emotionally intelligent, altruistic, highly communicative. But 12 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: Chief Judge Janet Di Fiori and Judge Anthony Kanataro expressed 13 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: concern about the reaper cautions of ruling for Happy. So 14 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: does that mean that I couldn't keep a dog? I 15 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: mean dogs can memorize words, and I think most people 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 1: who have dogs or any kind of domesticated pet that 17 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: way would say that they feel there's a special connection 18 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: in a bond. They're like their family. As I think 19 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: you pointed out in the brief, if I had a dog, 20 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: I could leave property to them. Is this case about 21 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: Happy one exceptionally autonomous and intelligent creature, or is this 22 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: about all Asian elephants or all elephants. What's the scope 23 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: of the population we're talking about here, Well, it would 24 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: be disingenuous to not think that this would you know, 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: be precedent for another elephant, And by a vote of 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: five to two, the court rule the Happy is not 27 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: a person and cannot get habeas corpus relief to be 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: moved to an elephant sanctuary, the result being that she'll 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: continue to live alone in a one acre exhibit at 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 1: the Bronx Zoo, where she's been kept for the last 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: forty five years. Joining me is Elizabeth Stein of the 32 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: Non Human Rights Project Happy is New York Council. What 33 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: do you say to the people who think this legal 34 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: fight is absurd because an animal is not a human being. Well, 35 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: if the argument is that an animal is not a human, 36 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: that is absolutely true. We are not arguing that an 37 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: animal is a human. What we are arguing is that 38 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: human beings have certain rights, such as the fundamental right 39 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:34,800 Speaker 1: to bodily liberty protected by habeas corpus, which we believe 40 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: is not limited to human beings, and based on the 41 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: extraordinary intrinsic nature of elephants, their autonomy, their extraordinary cognitive complexity, 42 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,720 Speaker 1: we believe that Happy, as an elephant, is entitled to 43 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: the recognition of that same right that a human being has. 44 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: The fact that a human being has this right should 45 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: never preclude a non human animal such as Happy the elephant, 46 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: from having that same right. And I think what also 47 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: happens is that you know, the term person is thrown 48 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: around so much, and when someone hears the term person, 49 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: they think of human being. But in the eyes of 50 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: the law, a person is not the same thing as 51 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 1: the human beings. They're not synonymous terms. A person is 52 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: merely anything, whether it be an individual or an entity, 53 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: that has the capacity for a right. Happy is a 54 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: special elephant from what I understand. Did you choose her 55 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: for that reason? Well, Happy is a very special elephant 56 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: because she was the first elephant very self recognition test, 57 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: so you know that does make her very special. But 58 00:03:54,600 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: all elephants are extremely special in their intrinsic cognitive abilities, 59 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: their intrinsic autonomy, their intrinsic nous as elephants. So we 60 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: also chose Happy because of the fact that she is 61 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: in this very very very small prison at Bronx Doo, 62 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: because she is alone. There were really many reasons for 63 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: choosing Happy. Explain the basic issue here, the habeas corpus issue, Well, 64 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: habeas corpus is really a mechanism by which an individual 65 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: and I'm not going to say human being because you know, 66 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: while historically it has only been used by human beings, 67 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: there's no reason why it couldn't be used by an 68 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: individual with its same right to bodily liberty. Because habeas 69 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: corpus protects bodily liberty. It's the mechanism by which someone 70 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: who is imprisoned can challenge the legality of the imprisonment. 71 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: And that's precisely what we were doing in our petition 72 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,799 Speaker 1: on Happiest. We have what we've done in our chimpanzee petitions, 73 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: what we're doing in the petition that we filed in 74 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: California for the three elephants in Fresno. It's a challenge 75 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 1: to the lawfulness of the imprisonment based on a violation 76 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: of the non human animals bodily liberty. You were asking 77 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: the court to make a novel ruling here, what was 78 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: your argument? Our argument was based on the evolution of 79 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: the common law, and we put forward the evidence, the undisputed, 80 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: unrebutted scientific evidence presented by five of the most renowned 81 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: elephant scientists based on decades of their research and studying elephants, 82 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: and it was through their affidavits that we presented the 83 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: factual basis for happy autonomy. For the fact that she 84 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: is this autonomoust extraordinarily contentively complex x non human animals 85 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: who suffers the same way that a human being would 86 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: suffer in this imprisonment, that she should be out traveling 87 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: miles a day as elephants do foraging planning. Elephants have 88 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: a true sense of self. They remember the past, they 89 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: know the present, and can plan for the future. The 90 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,280 Speaker 1: females such as Happy are matriarchs for life. They are 91 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 1: in heard, they mourn the dead, They play, they frolic, 92 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 1: they roam. So what we were saying to the court 93 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: is based on common law principles of science and fairness 94 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: and equity and justice. More than anything, the court needed 95 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: to evolve the common law to be able to recognize happiest. 96 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: Common law right to bodily liberty based on very found 97 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: established principles of liberty and equality that are cherished by 98 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: the courts in New York. And once recognizing this right, 99 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: her imprisonment is unlawful and the remedy for habeas corpus 100 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: is released from the unlawful imprisonment. The zoo's lawyer, Kenneth Manning, 101 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 1: basically argued that Happy was not being mistreated and the 102 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: zoo was in compliance with all the animal welfare laws. 103 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: There's been no harm to the animal, and you have 104 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: three f A davits from the people of the zoo 105 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: attusting to that the animals treated well. She's adapted well 106 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: for her surroundings. Their basic legal argument was based on 107 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: these other cases that you know, we believe we're wrongly 108 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: decided that essentially Happy, as an elephant and non human 109 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: animal cannot have this right, that unless you're human, you 110 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: cannot have this right. And yes, they were saying she's happy, 111 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: she has her trainers, she can't be moved, but we 112 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: had the experts who said, no, she's not happy. No 113 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: elephants in captivity, if you're going to use the term 114 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: happy is happy, and that human beings are no substitute 115 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: for an elephant being with other elephants, and we cited 116 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: numerous examples of elephant who had been deemed unfriendly and 117 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: aggressive and too old to be moved. They were moved 118 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: to sanctuaries and they thrived because bottom line is, as 119 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 1: our experts said, you cannot really analyze an elephant in 120 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: captivity because they're not being an elephant, really describe an 121 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: elephant in captivity because they're not being an elephant. Still, 122 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: the court wrote that no chord has held the habeas 123 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: corpus writ applicable to a non human animal, and there's 124 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: no precedent to support the suggestion it should be applicable. 125 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 1: What's your reaction to the ruling. Well, first, I'm going 126 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: to say, yes, five judges turn this down. But and 127 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: it's not even you know, kind of turning lemons into 128 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: lemonade or glass half full type of things. The two 129 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 1: dissenting judges in this case, their dissents are absolutely remarkable. 130 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: And you know, June I really can impress upon anybody 131 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: enough that this is the first time in history that 132 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: the highest court of an English speaking jurisdiction heard a 133 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: case such as this on behalf of a non human animal. 134 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: So to have gotten to judges to dissent and say no, 135 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: happy is entitled to this right and her freedom is 136 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: absolutely remarkable. And what I would say about the other 137 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: five judges is that they are wrong on the law. 138 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: They are basically saying that if you are not a 139 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: human being, you're not an titled to this right or 140 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: to habeas corpus, which defies justice. It defies what this 141 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: court should be doing as a common law court. When 142 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: you know, I think about the anarchist breeds that were 143 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: submitted in this case from the most renowned scholars in law, 144 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: constitutional law, habeas corpus, law, theology, philosophy, science, the court 145 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: of public opinion, I can't, for the life of me 146 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: understand how those five judges. So, Mr Mark here Bid, 147 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: I will say that this is very early after the 148 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: decision was handed down. We are reading it over and 149 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: over and over again, and we still have not decided 150 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: what our next legal challenge will be in this case. 151 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: Do you have any recourse above the highest court in 152 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: New York? Well, one thing I will say to about 153 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: our work as lawyers from the Non Human Rights Project 154 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: were persistent and it takes a lot for us to 155 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: give up and say, Okay, we have dotted every eye 156 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: and crossed every tape. So we are examining other legal 157 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: options with this case, whether we can go back to 158 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: the Court of Appeals. And what I would like to 159 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: really impress is that these descents will be used when 160 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: we go into other states. Were in California right now, 161 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: we will be citing to these descents. Judges in the 162 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: other states can look to these descents from the Highest 163 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: Court in New York and use them and rely on 164 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: them and kind of see them maybe as a structural 165 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:50,720 Speaker 1: framework for their own decisions. And again, to have gotten 166 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: these two descents so quickly, I mean knowing how slowly 167 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: when you have a social justice movement or a civil 168 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: rights movement, how lonely these things evolved. And ultimately, if 169 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: it's not for Happy, it will be for another elephant, 170 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: or a chimpanzee or an orca. It is going to happen. 171 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: That's what these two descents proved to me. I know 172 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:21,559 Speaker 1: your goal is to get Happy moved to an elephant sanctuary. 173 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: Is there anything else you can do if you have 174 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: no legal recourse left? Well, if we can come up 175 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: with another legal route for her, we are hoping that, 176 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, because the public is so strongly behind us June. 177 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: After the decision, people are emailing us and sending messages 178 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram in support of not 179 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: only our work but in continuing the effort to get 180 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: Happy out. So if we don't have other legal effort, 181 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: then we are going to ask the public to continue 182 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: to at pressure on the Wildlife Conservation Society to do 183 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: the right thing for Happy, because she has a life 184 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: yet that she should be spending in a sanctuary, and 185 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: if they really cared about her, they would do it, 186 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: because they have no legitimate reason to keep her there none. 187 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Elizabeth. That's Elizabeth Stein of the Non 188 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: Human Rights Project. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg.