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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. MM

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Speaker 1: hello and welcome to the show. My name is Nolan,

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Speaker 1: the absence of Matt. I go first, then it's correct,

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Speaker 1: they call me Ben. We are joined, of course, with

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Speaker 1: our super producer, Paul Deck. And most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't

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Speaker 1: want you to know. I guess at the top, we

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Speaker 1: would we would have to say that today's episode is

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Speaker 1: about music, and you're hearing it in an audio format,

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Speaker 1: So we want to be we want to be very

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Speaker 1: clear that some of the things you might hear in

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Speaker 1: this episode may well apply two podcasts. But thankfully we're

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Speaker 1: still a little wild West out here. Remember that Aerosmith

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Speaker 1: video game. It was like an arcade game with a gun.

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Speaker 1: It was called Revolution X. I do vaguely remember. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you'd shoot CDs at like weird like mutant, kind of

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Speaker 1: Mad Max type gas mask wearing creepy crawlers, and the

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Speaker 1: tagline for the game was music is the Weapon. That's

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Speaker 1: I do remember that, That's correct, That's all I got.

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Speaker 1: I think that's I think that's a great place to start,

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Speaker 1: because we in the past looked at the use of

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Speaker 1: music as a weapon. No wait, no, we didn't. That

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Speaker 1: was a fake script I wrote for an audio drama,

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Speaker 1: a radio play that we did some number of years ago.

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Speaker 1: What was the one about the cursed record? You talking

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Speaker 1: about the the see you Next time? Yeah, that's the

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Speaker 1: name of it. Yeah, okay, so we didn't actually do

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Speaker 1: an episode on music as a weapon. We have a

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Speaker 1: fake script. We have a fake episode in that show.

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Speaker 1: It was a radio play. Yeah, check that out if

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Speaker 1: I think this is the per time of year to

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Speaker 1: listen to that. We did a fine episode on our

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Speaker 1: other show, Ridiculous History about X rays that were used

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Speaker 1: to pirate music back in the days of Russian hipsters

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Speaker 1: known as the still Yagi. That's true. You can listen

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Speaker 1: to some of that music online, but you can listen

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Speaker 1: to a sample of it on that episode to do

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Speaker 1: check out Ridiculous History and manage your expectations with those records.

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Speaker 1: But that's that just goes to show the idea of

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Speaker 1: music is a weapon, the idea of the desperate lengths

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Speaker 1: to which people will go to to encounter music that

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Speaker 1: they enjoy. That just goes to show how fundamental music

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Speaker 1: is to the human experience. Music is one of the

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Speaker 1: earliest human technologies. Music predates written language and also pre

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Speaker 1: dates most likely spoken language. In two thousand and twelve,

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Speaker 1: there was a high resolution carbon dating examination of some

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Speaker 1: utes from the Gaze Coastal Cave and they found that

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Speaker 1: these flutes were forty two to forty three thousand years old,

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Speaker 1: and the earliest recorded written language dates to at the

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Speaker 1: most generous level, uh Samaria circa thirty BC. And this

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Speaker 1: means that for thousands of years before anyone successfully propagated

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Speaker 1: a written alphabet of any sort, our species played music

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Speaker 1: across the planet. It's likely the first language our species

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Speaker 1: was capable of using. It was able to exhibit complexity, nuance,

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Speaker 1: and universality, which you know is the is one of

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Speaker 1: the current arguments going on with music right now. Why

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Speaker 1: do major tones tend to elicit similar emotions to people

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Speaker 1: across the planet, more positive emotions, while minor tones make

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Speaker 1: people feel a little blue? Yeah, the blue note not

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Speaker 1: to be confused with the brown note, which is a

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Speaker 1: different a different note altogether. Uh, the blue note maybe

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Speaker 1: a little more real hopefully the brown note is a

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theory unto itself. Indeed, now let's fast forward thousands

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Speaker 1: and thousands of years. Here we go until boom, we're

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Speaker 1: here at. Music remains the first spoken language or sung

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Speaker 1: language of Homo sapiens, and it's still so ubiquitous that

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Speaker 1: we can guarantee you you will almost definitely have heard

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Speaker 1: a song in the preceding two hours, or you will

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Speaker 1: hear a song in the next two hours. And it

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Speaker 1: may be a song that you sing to yourself, and

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Speaker 1: maybe a snatch of song on the radio. But it

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Speaker 1: surrounds us. Why here the facts. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: world's oldest industries, right up there with prostitution. But music

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Speaker 1: is also one of the world's most successful industries. By

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Speaker 1: one The music industry revenue in the United States alone

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Speaker 1: will total over twenty two point six billion dollars, and

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Speaker 1: that's just here in Uncle sam Land. How many of

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Speaker 1: that is streams versus actual hard record sales? Ben right,

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Speaker 1: It's tough to tell. Increasingly, of course, streams right obviously,

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Speaker 1: and record sales I believe are in a precipitous decline,

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Speaker 1: except for vinyls doing pretty well. Having a new a

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Speaker 1: New Heyday. But c D s, Oh my gosh, when

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Speaker 1: when's the last time you bought a c D. I

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Speaker 1: I haven't bought a c D and ten years I'll

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Speaker 1: buy a c D and my friends shows that's all

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Speaker 1: they've got. But I would prefer cassette even or vinyl. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course vinyl. And we have we have a lot

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Speaker 1: of friends who are musicians here on the show, and

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Speaker 1: we understand the appeal. It's the business is so huge

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Speaker 1: because it's tapping into a universal human desire and because

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Speaker 1: on some level haven't we all at least once or

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Speaker 1: twice end of being a famous professional musician, being on stage,

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Speaker 1: laying out a song, standing it across the world. And

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Speaker 1: that was my original dream before becoming before my second

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Speaker 1: dream of becoming a podcaster. There you go, there you go. Well,

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Speaker 1: as long as you're in the top three your childhood dreams,

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Speaker 1: you're doing very very well. Well. Podcasting wasn't really around

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Speaker 1: when I was a wee lad, so it was a

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Speaker 1: sort of a new dream. But I'm happy with it.

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Speaker 1: It's similar to becoming an astronaut, you know. And in

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Speaker 1: American music in particular, we have this image of the

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Speaker 1: quintessential singer songwriter moving up the ranks from obscurity to

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Speaker 1: stardom based on maybe a little bit of luck, a

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Speaker 1: tremendous amount of talent, fierce independence, and the ability to

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Speaker 1: make it on their own, on their own merit by

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Speaker 1: themselves at least, that's that's the image that we get

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Speaker 1: sold so often, Like look at American Idol. It still

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Speaker 1: goes on there. Here's my sob story, here's my cover

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Speaker 1: of a Lady Gaga or a Kesha song, and now

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make my own album, at which point

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Speaker 1: you usually never hear of them again. How true was

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Speaker 1: this idea? How how true is our our narrative of

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Speaker 1: a person or a group of people, a band rising

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Speaker 1: through the rinks independently? How how much fact is in

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Speaker 1: that story? Really? Here's where it gets crazy a little

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Speaker 1: bit early. Yeah, it's fine. I knew it's coming, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it's coming quite so soon. Why don't

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Speaker 1: you do the honors? Okay? Sure? Ben? Wow, you bless me.

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Speaker 1: The music that you hear is largely controlled by a vast,

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Speaker 1: powerful set of forces just a stone's throw behind the

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Speaker 1: velvety curtains of the stage, and just in a side

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Speaker 1: here Originally we had that typed out as uh, vast

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Speaker 1: powerful forces just that what a curtains throw behind the stage.

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Speaker 1: Curtains throw behind the stage. I kind of like it now,

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Speaker 1: I kind of like it too. Maybe let us know

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Speaker 1: if you think that will catch on, but it Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're you're absolutely right now. Just off to the side,

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Speaker 1: just barely out of you, in the corner of your eye,

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Speaker 1: you can see these vast forces exercising their control over

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Speaker 1: your ears, your earbuds, your headphones, your speakers, what have you.

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Speaker 1: And how far can you throw a curtain? Well, that's

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Speaker 1: the that's you can throw back a curtain. You can

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Speaker 1: throw back a curtain, throw it open wide, you can

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Speaker 1: cause a revelation. Yeah, we found several platforms, are several

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Speaker 1: spheres or pillars of control through which these various forces

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Speaker 1: control the music that you hear, not just when you

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Speaker 1: turn on the radio, fellow conspiracy realist, but everywhere you go.

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Speaker 1: And we'd like to tell you about a few of these.

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Speaker 1: My my trusty co host, uh Noel, you and Matt

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Speaker 1: have probably at some point experienced one or two of

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Speaker 1: these things. The first one is Paola. Now, I've never

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Speaker 1: been I've never been high enough in the musical ranks

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Speaker 1: to to experience payola. But thank you, Ben for thinking

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Speaker 1: perhaps you have been victimized by it. It's possible, highly unlikely, though.

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Speaker 1: So Paola is the practice of paying a radio station

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Speaker 1: or radio station owners for air time, and it is

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Speaker 1: in that form league illegal. But it's so it's this

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Speaker 1: is the equation, so the X amount of money, the

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Speaker 1: station will play the song y number of times. And

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Speaker 1: it's like I said, it's it's pretty patently illegal, but

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Speaker 1: there's some criteria, right Ben, Yeah, So Paola, despite sounding

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Speaker 1: like a very strange brand name for granola bar, is

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Speaker 1: a very common practice that's technically only illegal according to

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Speaker 1: the f CC, if the transaction is not publicly disclosed

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Speaker 1: to the audience somehow, or if the fees paid go

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Speaker 1: directly to the DJ rather than to the station. So,

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Speaker 1: for instance, let's say that Matt, Paul, Noel and I

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Speaker 1: and you too, if you want to join our band.

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Speaker 1: Let's say that we have a great hit song called

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Speaker 1: All Will Be Revealed, and our song becomes a hit

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Speaker 1: because our we're attached to a powerful label, Illumination Global Unlimited,

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Speaker 1: and they pay radio stations across the country. Let's say

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Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars a pop two play this song three

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Speaker 1: times so once an hour during their like three hour

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Speaker 1: prime time radio block, then all of a sudden, all

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Speaker 1: all will be revealed. Becomes a fantastic hit. But if

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Speaker 1: no one knows that the only reason it's becoming a

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Speaker 1: hit or getting that air time is because we're giving

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Speaker 1: ten to twenty dollars directly to DJs across the country.

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Speaker 1: We've broken the law. Here's the other thing. Paola is very,

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Speaker 1: very difficult to enforce. It's a standard, if often occluded

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Speaker 1: or hidden practice in the music industry. And you can

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Speaker 1: tell just how old it is because of the name.

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Speaker 1: It's a portmanteau. So no, what what do we know

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Speaker 1: about the name Paola? That's right, Ben, it's a combination.

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Speaker 1: It's old, old combination of pay and ola. Imagine that

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Speaker 1: what's your common suffix is used for product names in

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Speaker 1: the early twentieth century, Like you got Pianola, Victrola, Ambarola, Crayola, Rockola, Shinola.

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Speaker 1: I love that one, um and yeah, it reached it's heyday.

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Speaker 1: Payola did even have motorola, for example, and victor Rola

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Speaker 1: in particular. That's a it's an audio device. That's right.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And UM also Motorola, which was a radio

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Speaker 1: equipment manufacturing company. So Paola reached its heyday when the

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Speaker 1: music industry was literally run by the mob. That's true.

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Speaker 1: So have you ever seen that episode of Sopranos that

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Speaker 1: involves uh, one of the characters like great Uncle or

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Speaker 1: something like that, like works used to work for the

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Speaker 1: record industry and he likes stole songs from like, you know,

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Speaker 1: young black artists and lowtown. I haven't seen that episode.

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Speaker 1: It was interesting. So the way this would work in

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Speaker 1: a hypothetical example would be that uh, super producer Paul

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Speaker 1: Dekins most popular radio show in Atlanta, the Young Kids

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Speaker 1: Hop and Bop Poodle Skirt Our, gets shaken down by

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Speaker 1: various enforcers like UM, the legendary Maddie two Hands Frederick,

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Speaker 1: who offers him money but makes him an offer he

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Speaker 1: can't refuse, and so in a way, the DJ is

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Speaker 1: sort of forced to play this record, whatever this record

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Speaker 1: may be. This caused a huge scandal, especially in the

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Speaker 1: fifties through the seventies. In the late nineteen fifties, there

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Speaker 1: was a congressional investigation into the practice of payola. But

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Speaker 1: despite that investigation. This practice continues today and it most

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Speaker 1: definitely affects the music that you will hear, at least

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Speaker 1: when you're casually tuning in to um many radio stations.

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Speaker 1: The Federal Communications Commission and the Communications Act of ninety

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Speaker 1: four both try to fix the situation. They have strict

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Speaker 1: requirements and rules regarding the issue of payola. They demand

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Speaker 1: the following that employees of broadcast stations, program producers, program suppliers,

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Speaker 1: and others who, in exchange for airing material, have accepted

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Speaker 1: or agreed to receive payment, services, or other valuable consideration

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Speaker 1: must disclose this fact. Disclosure of compensation provides broadcasters the

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Speaker 1: information they need to let their audiences know if material

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Speaker 1: was paid for and by whom. So it's pretty clear

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Speaker 1: they're just saying be transparent totally despite that requirement, which

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Speaker 1: really isn't that big of a requirement. I guess they

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Speaker 1: just want the music to seem genuine and not purchase.

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Speaker 1: But despite that requirement, many very successful record companies and

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Speaker 1: labels have found tons of loopholes to continue the practice legally.

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Speaker 1: And this goes back to our earlier example. This is

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Speaker 1: how it affects independent artists. So you remember um, you

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Speaker 1: were in that group Macklemore and Ryan Lewis the thrift

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Speaker 1: shop guy. Yet so these guys were on an independent

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Speaker 1: label and they were concerned that they wouldn't get airtime

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Speaker 1: because they didn't have the infrastructure or the label support

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Speaker 1: to pay radio stations to play their songs. So the

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Speaker 1: Macamore team, and this is according to their manager at

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Speaker 1: the time, Zach Quillan, they hired an independent arm of

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Speaker 1: Warner Music Group called the Alternative Distribution Alliance, and they

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Speaker 1: paid the Alliance a flat fee every month to mote

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Speaker 1: the album. And so this money went to the Alliance,

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Speaker 1: and part of that money went surely to radio stations.

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Speaker 1: So despite functioning on an independent label, they were forced

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Speaker 1: Because these large labels, outside of maybe college radio, tend

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Speaker 1: to control what people here on the airwaves. So that's it.

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Speaker 1: That's the first way that external forces control what you

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Speaker 1: hear it. In the heyday of payola, it didn't particularly

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Speaker 1: matter what radio station you decided to tune into, whatever

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Speaker 1: genre you found, there would be something like this in

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Speaker 1: the mix at play. But that alone is not enough

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Speaker 1: to entirely tip the scales because you could just say, well,

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Speaker 1: what if I just don't listen to the radio. What

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Speaker 1: if I only buy records, I only listened to things,

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Speaker 1: or I only buy phonographs of what ever, and I

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Speaker 1: only listen to music that I find in stores that

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Speaker 1: I buy. I just listen to music that personally calls

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Speaker 1: to me. Because I am the master of my fate,

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Speaker 1: I am the captain of my soul. I'm gonna go invictus.

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Speaker 1: I know what I like, and that's what's going to

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Speaker 1: steer me, uh steer me through all this hoopla and

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Speaker 1: all these big time record companies trying to brainwash me

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Speaker 1: into liking something I wouln't ordinarily like. Why would they

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Speaker 1: do that, though, ben to what end? I'm glad I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you asked. I'm glad you asked because it turns

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Speaker 1: out that the decisions we make about the music we

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Speaker 1: like may not be as independent as we would we

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Speaker 1: would prefer to think. Will delve into the science after

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Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, and we're back and we're

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Speaker 1: talking about the science of the song. So um, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't stop there. If you're listening to this podcast, scientists

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Speaker 1: around the world are working on ever more efficient ways

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Speaker 1: to hack into your brain place and get you hooked

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Speaker 1: on certain songs, melodies, lyrics, combinations of those things. What's

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Speaker 1: that millennial? Uh? The yelp? Yeah, it's sort of like

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Speaker 1: that song, that Tarzan song. Oh, but it's more it's like,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, exact millennial yell um, and that is hot.

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Speaker 1: It's in all the tracks. It's it may have waned

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but now you still hear it pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty frequently. Have you ever asked yourself want to so much? Mules?

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Speaker 1: Look Solomo sam nowadays? Uh, guess what, You're right, it's

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Speaker 1: not a coincidence. You're not going crazy. You may be

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Speaker 1: getting old, but that happens to everyone. We've found that

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Speaker 1: there's a reason a lot of popular music sounds and

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Speaker 1: re seeingly similar. Let's let's just dive into the science.

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Speaker 1: So there was an f r M I study in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven, and it proved to us that

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Speaker 1: the emotional centers of our brains, including the reward centers,

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Speaker 1: are more active when we hear songs that have been

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Speaker 1: played for us before. In fact, these areas are more

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Speaker 1: active even than when people hear unfamiliar songs that fit

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Speaker 1: better with their musical taste. So what this means is like,

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Speaker 1: what's an obnoxious pop song? You mean, what's not an

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Speaker 1: obnoxious pop all right? Macarina? Macarina is pretty bad, Okay,

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Speaker 1: so let's let's go with that. So I take that back.

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Speaker 1: There's some pop songs like quite enjoy. There are quite

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Speaker 1: a few. Yeah, so Macarina though, you know it, it's

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Speaker 1: not everybody's cup of tea. But for a time, people

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Speaker 1: heard it constantly, and after a certain amount of listens,

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Speaker 1: a certain number of iterations of hearing this song, then

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Speaker 1: the emotional centers, the reward centers included, would ping. For

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Speaker 1: anyone who heard the macarena. Even if their favorite music

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Speaker 1: was say heavy metal or gospel, and they heard they

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Speaker 1: heard another new gospel song or new heavy metal song,

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Speaker 1: their brain would not be as rewarded as it would

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Speaker 1: be hearing macarena just one more time. Isn't that crazy?

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Speaker 1: So in short, this this is a fundamental switch. Okay.

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Speaker 1: In short, this proves that while we often assume a

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Speaker 1: song is played a lot because it's popular, the opposite

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Speaker 1: is true. The song is popular because it's played so often,

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Speaker 1: and we all fall into this trap of loving familiar

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Speaker 1: things you like this. Know. It's sometimes been referred to

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Speaker 1: as a musical Stockholm syndrome, and Stockholm syndrome, of course,

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Speaker 1: is the phenomenon on in which victims of a of

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Speaker 1: a kidnapping or some other crime where they're held with

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Speaker 1: their captors for a long time will begin to sympathize

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Speaker 1: with them and say, you know what, they're not that bad.

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Speaker 1: I kind of get where they're coming from. Interesting, but

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Speaker 1: we're we're familiar with Stockholm syndrome. It gets it gets

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Speaker 1: mentioned in all types of crime fiction. It occurs in

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Speaker 1: real life, but this Stockholm effect seems to happen with

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Speaker 1: culture as well. It's not just kidnapping, Yeah, it's true.

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Speaker 1: The scientific term for this phenomenon is the mere exposure effect,

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Speaker 1: uh and that was discovered in the sixties by a

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Speaker 1: guy with a delightful name. First name is pretty standard Robert.

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Speaker 1: Last name like that maybe he's uh maybe. As a

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Speaker 1: Polish it's Z A J O N c um And

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Speaker 1: it can apply to anything images, shapes, songs, or even people.

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Speaker 1: So that means that if check this out, that means

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Speaker 1: that the more often you're exposed to a certain image

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Speaker 1: or even just the shape, like maybe someone decides to

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Speaker 1: hack your brain by changing your workplace and putting just

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Speaker 1: a bunch of inverted triangles in kind of inconspicuous places.

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Speaker 1: You're going to begin to notice those shapes and you'll

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Speaker 1: probably the argument goes eventually as you become more familiar

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Speaker 1: with them, enjoy them more, or associate them with reward

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Speaker 1: and comfort. In Roberton study, participants reported liking songs more

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Speaker 1: the second and third time they were exposed to them,

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Speaker 1: and this same response occurred even when the participants weren't

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Speaker 1: aware that they have been exposed to the song. So

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Speaker 1: they walk in maybe uh to sign up for the study,

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Speaker 1: and softly in the background, you know, Explosions in the

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Speaker 1: Sky or God Speed Your Black Emperor or um Katie

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Speaker 1: Perry song or something that's playing. The point is, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter what the song is if people if people's

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Speaker 1: brains are registering it, even if they're not consciously aware

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Speaker 1: of it, that's when the familiarity begins to build. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've talked about this lot off air and

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Speaker 1: on air. There are a lot of albums or songs

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Speaker 1: they come out that we say, well, at first I

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Speaker 1: wasn't feeling it, but then I had to let it

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Speaker 1: grow on me, and I listened to it some more times,

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Speaker 1: and then I began to realize I really liked it,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: actually I think a lot of high schoolers went through

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Speaker 1: that with Radiohead. Yeah that's true. I mean the you know,

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Speaker 1: they're not the most well, especially their Ladder records. You know,

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Speaker 1: the first ones are a little bit easier to stomach

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Speaker 1: right away, and then you know, a little kid, a

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Speaker 1: littlemn easac it takes a little bit more um taste

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Speaker 1: kind of you know, you gotta kind of like work

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Speaker 1: your way up to it. Yeah, it's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: It's a good thing. It's good for you. And that's

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Speaker 1: those are active listening tracks. And I also say yes,

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Speaker 1: active listening versus like the the hooks are much more

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Speaker 1: apparent on the first two Radiohead records, and the song

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Speaker 1: structures are much more traditional, whereas when they started kind

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Speaker 1: of switching things up and getting more experimental, it's a

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Speaker 1: little bit it takes a little bit more of an

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Speaker 1: effort to kind of like see what they're going for,

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Speaker 1: or a little bit more familiarity with the kinds of

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Speaker 1: influences that they're harnessing. Or kind of summoning. I guess yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a good way to look at it,

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Speaker 1: and I think those are valid points. What the science

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Speaker 1: shows us is that the human species can easily mistake

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Speaker 1: the fluidity of our ability to identify and fully comprehend

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Speaker 1: a song with us actually liking it. So we seem

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Speaker 1: to say, oh, I know this song and make this

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Speaker 1: implicit jump that means oh, I also like this song.

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Speaker 1: So once a song gets stuck in your head, once

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Speaker 1: you get an earworm, it might quickly transition from being

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Speaker 1: irritating to being one of your jams, one of your

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Speaker 1: hot summer jams. We have a video that super producer

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Speaker 1: Paul Deckan and I did on the science of earworms,

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Speaker 1: so please check that out. Maybe we can post it

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Speaker 1: when this episode goes live. Good idea if you want

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Speaker 1: to learn more about this. Yeah, thank you and this.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to drag you too hard on this, No,

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Speaker 1: but when I was looking at the signs of this,

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Speaker 1: I thought, how many times does Nolan need to hear

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Speaker 1: Hobo Johnson? Is that his name Johnson? How many times

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Speaker 1: is Nol need to hear Hobo Johnson before it becomes

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Speaker 1: his his hot summer jam. Well, here's the problem with

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Speaker 1: Hobo Johnson Ben. One of many is that that son

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Speaker 1: doesn't really have a hook, because the guy's just kind

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Speaker 1: of wine wrapping And I'm not saying like wine like

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Speaker 1: what a wino would wrap wine like w h I

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Speaker 1: n E right, It's sort of like emo rap and

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really have a hook. There's no melody, so

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Speaker 1: it's hard to like latch onto something to make it

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Speaker 1: your summer jam. But but the kids seem to like it.

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Speaker 1: Who am I to say, I'm just an old man.

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Speaker 1: Just I hope this wasn't got you got you podcasting

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Speaker 1: because I find it so endearing the how upset you

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Speaker 1: are about that guy. Not sure why I feel so

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Speaker 1: strongly about it. I don't. You made us stop everything,

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Speaker 1: and we're very busy here, and you made us stop

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Speaker 1: everything so you could play this song while you told

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Speaker 1: us how much you hated it, which was very strange.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, man, I'm I'm a strange one. I'm not

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Speaker 1: I'm not a guest. Look, I have a spoken word background,

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Speaker 1: so I have no room to talk get it, no

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Speaker 1: room to talk word. And I think about that's like

404
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Speaker 1: an unintentional joke. It's a happy accident. It's a Bob

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Speaker 1: Ross happy accident. But this is this is approvable neurological phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: This is what your this is your brain on songs.

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Speaker 1: The twist is that the music industry is very, very

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Speaker 1: very much aware of this, and that's why Paola at

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Speaker 1: Deals promoted videos and all that, all that jazz matters

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Speaker 1: so much because they know if they can get the

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Speaker 1: song in front of you, if they can control your

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Speaker 1: environment such that they can make you hear the same

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Speaker 1: songs repeatedly, you will increasingly like them. Other scientific factors

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Speaker 1: also play a role. The context in which you hear

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Speaker 1: a song is incredibly important, just as if not more

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Speaker 1: important than the qualities of the song itself. This means

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Speaker 1: that more time, the more times a song is forced

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Speaker 1: upon you, the more opportunities the powers that be have

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Speaker 1: to make your brain have positive associations with it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There's a great article on mike dot com that has

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Speaker 1: a fantastic example of this. Okay, here's a quote from

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Speaker 1: this article. Uh. Quote. If someone here's ariana Grande smash

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Speaker 1: hit problem every time they're out with their friends, they

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Speaker 1: will likely start to associate it with good times. And

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Speaker 1: good feelings, regardless of the song's actual lyrics. Songs that

426
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: the industry foists upon us constantly then have a far

427
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: better shot at becoming popular than ones without the machine

428
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 1: behind them. Ben This is true. You know what's funny too,

429
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: It actually works both ways to make you real sad,

430
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: because it depends if you associate like a particular song

431
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: with like something like a breakup or like a death

432
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:20,959
Speaker 1: in the family or something. If the song is very

433
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: popular and you're hearing it all the time as you're

434
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: feeling these emotions, you're going to associate that song with

435
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 1: that set of emotions. I remember when the song dark

436
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: Horse by Katie Perry was really big. I was in

437
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: San Francisco for the first time, um in many many years,

438
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: and I had a really great time, and it was

439
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: also kind of an emotional time in my life. It

440
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: was at the kind of the end of my marriage.

441
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 1: I was with my ex wife and it was still

442
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 1: the last kind of hurrah that we had, like as

443
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: a married couple. So forever, I will associate that song

444
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,160
Speaker 1: with very complex emotions, both happy ones and sad ones.

445
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: But that song definitely makes me feel stuff every time

446
00:27:54,760 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: it comes on. Right and it's interesting because that connection,

447
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: of course, is specific to individuals or groups of individuals.

448
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 1: It's not universal, which has put me in you know,

449
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,879
Speaker 1: I don't I don't have a ton of feelings, so

450
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: it's awkward for me sometimes to be in situations where

451
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: someone's like, let me play this song that's very important

452
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: to me, and it's you know, it's it's something that

453
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: they have very somber, deep emotions about, but it's kind

454
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: of a you know, it's like a pop pop song

455
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: from their childhood, or it's like a it's like an

456
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: old timing, grand old opery song, you know. And what

457
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: they're really doing is they're they're telling you about their

458
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: lives through music. But it can be weird if you

459
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: don't have the same associations, which why it becomes even

460
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: more important to n in date the the environment with

461
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: that song so that people make the same associations. Also,

462
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: San Francisco is a beautiful town. It is a beautiful plad.

463
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: You got to go there. I did. I've been a

464
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: couple of times since, but I always think whenever I

465
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: hear dark Horse to that one particular trip and we

466
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: can't stop here, as they say in inception, we have

467
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: to go deeper. This sort of psychological manipulation is not

468
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: limited to the radio, as you said, It occurs in

469
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: bars and clubs, in public centers, and especially in retail situations,

470
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: where professional playlist makers work to make unobtrusive, comforting groups

471
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: of tracks, selections of songs that will ultimately hopefully make

472
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: you more likely to purchase things even if you don't

473
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: need them. And this is a two way street. It

474
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,479
Speaker 1: helps the artist or their owners as well as MPR

475
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: put it, a good retail playlist can bring home the

476
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: culture of a business and psychologically affect a customer in

477
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: a way that doesn't feel pushy, and it's a positive

478
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: for the featured artist. In today's flooded musical climate where

479
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: new songs are published at a crazy rate on the internet,

480
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: having your song play in a Victoria's Secret the store,

481
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: for instance, can help cut through the noise and no

482
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: I will I will share anything with you because I

483
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: don't want to leave you out there by yourself with

484
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: a With a personal anecdote, I went through something similar

485
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: when I was in London with a song by Arctic Monkeys.

486
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: And I'm not the biggest Arctic Monkeys fan, but that

487
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: song happened to be playing while I was on a

488
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: tragic and doomed adventure abroad. Was that you looked good

489
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: on the dance floor? No, it was the wouldn't that

490
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: be funny? If that was it? It wasn't that, Yeah,

491
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: I would think you're right. It was the song when

492
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: the Sun Goes Down, and I realized that that is

493
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: not that song itself. The lyrics have nothing to do

494
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: with what was happening to me at the time, but

495
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: because I was exposed to that song in that period

496
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: of my life, they are inextricably intertwined. And there you

497
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: have it. Most of the music you specifically you here,

498
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: is likely controlled by teams of experts in multiple fields,

499
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: working assiduously behind the scenes for large brands and labels,

500
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: many of whom have significant financial ties with each other,

501
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: to continually play the same songs or similar songs over

502
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: and over and over and over again until they feel

503
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: familiar and comforting, and most importantly, until you feel that

504
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: you have decided that you chose to listen to it.

505
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: Isn't that amazing. It's like a gas This is like

506
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: macro level gas lighting. It's like an industry designed around Yeah,

507
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: now has the prevalence of this industry lessened with the

508
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: rise of more arguably democratic media platforms like YouTube, SoundCloud, Spotify.

509
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: So I'm sure, sure, yes, okay, of course, But that's

510
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: very similar to saying, oh, look that redwood is ten

511
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: feet shorter than it was ten years ago. It's still gigantic.

512
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: The effect is still there. But this still doesn't entirely

513
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: answer the question. We've only answered part of the question

514
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: who controls the music that you hear? Because it starts,

515
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: of course, with the people who make that music, And

516
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: the problem is there are far fewer of them than

517
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: you may have initially thought. We'll be back after a

518
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back. Um So. According

519
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: to article from The Atlantic, the biggest pop star in

520
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: the United States is a guy named Carl Martin Sandberg.

521
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: Who's that. Yeah, So, unless you're into obscure eighties hair metal,

522
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: you probably have never heard of him, um or seen

523
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: any of his performances. Yet this guy, this single man,

524
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: is responsible for more hits than Phil Specter, Michael Jackson

525
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: or the Beatles. It's insane proteges too, who are in

526
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: their own right intensely successful. Uh. Guys by the name

527
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: of Michael Ricksson. These are Norwegian guys, by the way,

528
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: and tore Hermansen in addition to Lucas gott Vaults and uh.

529
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: And then you get Ester Dean tacked on the end

530
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: there from Halen from Oklahoma. Um. So professionally they use pseudonyms,

531
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,080
Speaker 1: but you probably aren't particularly familiar with Max Martin, Stargate,

532
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: Dr Luke, and Esther Dean either. Now Esther Dean, let's

533
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: be fair, really put in the minimal amount of effort

534
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: with the pseudonym. Her real name is Esther with an H,

535
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: and in the pseudonym she just took out the H.

536
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: That's right. You've probably heard of Dr Luke was embroiled

537
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: in a very high profile lawsuit with with Kesha I believe. Yeah,

538
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,719
Speaker 1: that's probably how most people don't well. But these these

539
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: these are folks that don't make their own records. They

540
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: don't really they're not front people there behind the scenes

541
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: for sure. And here are some of the hits that

542
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 1: you that these folks are responsible for. Max Martin, that's

543
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 1: Sandberg wrote many of these, among others, Bad Blood by

544
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift and Kendrick Lamar were featuring Kendrick Lamar can't

545
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,919
Speaker 1: feel my face by the weekend, I kissed a girl

546
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: that's Katie Perry one more night. Not sure who that is.

547
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: At least twenty two other Billboard Hot one number one

548
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: hits um and that makes him the songwriter with the

549
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 1: third most number one singles on the chart, trailing only

550
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,760
Speaker 1: Mr Paul McCartney Sir Paul McCartney excuse me at thirty

551
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 1: two and John Lennon who had twenty six. And Max

552
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: Brton is still in the swing of his career, so

553
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: he may well transcend that he may well have since

554
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 1: this article was originally written, it seems likely. So that's

555
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: that's stunning. What does this mean. This means that a

556
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: handful of people, mostly oddly enough middle aged Scandinavian guys,

557
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: have been writing the majority of America's pop hits. It's

558
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: an open secret, but it's closely guarded, and it's protected

559
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: by labels and the performers them elves because we all

560
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: want to have that vision of the single, strong, independent

561
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: person or the group of incredibly talented people banding together

562
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: literally and rising through the ranks. But the performers themselves

563
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 1: have identities that are brands that are as carefully constructed

564
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: as their songs and their dance routines, and as we

565
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: said here, it's stuff they don't want you to know.

566
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: We're friends with tons of talented musicians, and within the industry,

567
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 1: most people are aware of this. Let's call it consolidation

568
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: to a degree. However, for the casual audience member, it

569
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:42,280
Speaker 1: can be incredibly disheartening to realize that this is similar

570
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 1: to the banking industry, the health care industry, mining industries,

571
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: and other businesses. Music is increasingly consolidated and monopolized, and

572
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: they're using the same practices. We're talking about, outsourcing, focus grouping, gargantelin, marketing,

573
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: pushes and more. I learned that it's um. Some pop

574
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: stars have writing camps where they send teams of people

575
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,239
Speaker 1: to spend the summer writing their next hit totally and um.

576
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: There's a label representative that kind of like shepherds the

577
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: whole thing around, and they refer to this person as

578
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 1: the camp counselor UM. And then there's a term that

579
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: I just learned, actually, what a top liner is. What's

580
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: the top liner is someone who's their particular skill is

581
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: writing vocal melodies exclusively. And that's the thing about these teams, right,

582
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,839
Speaker 1: you got like specialization. It's like a heist. You got

583
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: like the beat guy, you got the guy, you got

584
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 1: the top liner doing the vocal melody, you know. And

585
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: it's all based around the same kind of psychology and

586
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: mental manipulation that goes into like marketing for example. So

587
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about like ear earworm worthiness or earworm ability.

588
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm making these words up, you know.

589
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: It's like it's all about what's the shortest, possible, most

590
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: catchy thing that can be written into a song. And

591
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 1: that's what they're gonna do. And they're gonna like focus

592
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: group that they're gonna like workshop it, right, yeah, And

593
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: this is there's the other thing there's in addition of

594
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 1: focusing and workshopping, they have metrics that they already build

595
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: into songs touch points. Jay Brown, who co founded the

596
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: record label with Jay Z, put the number at seven seconds.

597
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: He said, you need a hook of some sort every

598
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: seven seconds because that's the average amount of time someone

599
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: will listen to a new song before turning it and

600
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: listening to something else. So he's like, you have to

601
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: have a hook in the in the beginning, you have

602
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: to have a hook in the pre course, hook in

603
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: the chorus, hook somewhere in the verse, hook back in

604
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: the chorus, hook at the break, every seven seconds. And

605
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: there's also a technique that was invented by reggae artists

606
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: in Jamaica called the track and hook method, where you

607
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: compose the track like the the instrumentation, the instrumental of

608
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: a of a piece of music, separately from the melodies

609
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: in the hooks. So that's why you can have like

610
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: a producer deliver a track and then have like a

611
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: hook writer write something on top of it, and they

612
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: can be working like independently and sometimes use the same

613
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: beats for different the same beats for different songs. And

614
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: that's also why so much of the of the music

615
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: we hear in pop sounds the same, because it's it's

616
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: meant to be as interchangeable as possible. I think that's

617
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: I think that's the best way of putting it. When

618
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: you say yeah, yeah, I think that's I think that's

619
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: a great way to put it. We're getting some of

620
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: this information from a fantastic and sobering book by an

621
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:41,240
Speaker 1: author named John Seabrook. This book is called The Song Machine,

622
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: and it features these interviews with the powers behind the

623
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: throne and one thing that really struck me about the

624
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: book is that there's there's a point where he discovers

625
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 1: the formula, the formula that tons and tons of pop

626
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 1: songs are written to, and he describes it thus Lee

627
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: abbas popcords and textures, Dennis pops song structure and dynamics,

628
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:10,719
Speaker 1: Dennis Pop is the mentor of Max Martin or Samberg.

629
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: And then combine that with eighties Arena Rocks, big choruses

630
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,480
Speaker 1: and early nineties American R and B groups and songs

631
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: are written by committee, often as we said, just skirting

632
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 1: the edge of plagiarism, all operating under the same proven

633
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: assumption that sameness sells, and that that is where we

634
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: are at with the music industry. It's it's interesting. We

635
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: were in a conversation just briefly off air, uh that

636
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 1: relates to this, to this episode in today's story. It's

637
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: interesting because in other countries this sort of industry is

638
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: much more prominent, much more visible, and you can see

639
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,760
Speaker 1: the nuts and bolts, Like in K pop, for instance,

640
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: there's not really a pretensed organic growth or individual independent

641
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: meritocracy and k pop. In the K pop industry, children

642
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: go to K pop academies and they're they're the boy

643
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: band model, only even more militaristic and like intense. Yeah,

644
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: that's groomed for it, almost right, and it's super competitive.

645
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: They don't really have a lot of agency in their

646
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: own lives, and they're very much seen as the as

647
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,720
Speaker 1: the tip of this entertainment iceberg and the real power,

648
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: the money, the influence, the people who make connections and

649
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: determine which band rises and falls. Those forces are rarely

650
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 1: are rarely going to be seen here in the US,

651
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,759
Speaker 1: but they're widely acknowledged to exist in K pop. I

652
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: don't know if J pop Japanese pop music is the same,

653
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't be surprised. So where does this Where

654
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: does this leave us? What's the future? Have any guesses?

655
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, do you think it's gonna

656
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: get more like this? Because I actually feel that like

657
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: pop music has gotten a little less predictable in certain ways.

658
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: There's certain artists that are like pushing the boundaries a

659
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,359
Speaker 1: little more, But at the same time, they are still

660
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 1: artists that work with some of these hit factories, like Rihanna.

661
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: Like I think Rihanna's music is pretty pretty interesting and

662
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: unusual and incorporates a lot more like dance hall kind

663
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 1: of beats, And I feel like the the whole job

664
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: of these guys and these hit factories is to figure

665
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: out what the times crave and then kind of adjust accordingly.

666
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:35,279
Speaker 1: And it's sort of like you know, you you. In

667
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 1: the past, you have an artist like David Bowie who

668
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: would do that, But now we have these kind of

669
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,919
Speaker 1: committees that figure it out and constantly have their finger

670
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 1: on the pulse of the zeitgeist. So I don't know.

671
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 1: I don't think it's always bad what's produced by this

672
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 1: kind of system, but it can be. It certainly can

673
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: be homogeneous. But I feel like if it's too homogeneous,

674
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: then it's gonna bore people. That's a good point. Let

675
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: me let me a strange analogy here. So for very

676
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 1: wealthy Western European nobility in the Middle Ages, it was

677
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: considered the height of luxury or a huge status symbol

678
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: to have a cook or a chef who could make

679
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: food taste or look like something other than what it was,

680
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,320
Speaker 1: so to somehow flavor venison or something so that it

681
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: appears to be a duck. It's still venice in though,

682
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: And I wonder if there's some similarity here between saying Okay,

683
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: this song still a pop song, is going to feel

684
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 1: more reggae influenced, but the science there is probably still

685
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: the same. Roughly, there's probably still um an increment of

686
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: seven to ten seconds of something changing. Let me keep

687
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 1: your attention. You know this is we live in the

688
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: short attention span theater, right, um. But yeah, I wonder

689
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: how much it's act really changing. I agree with you

690
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: that there's a ton more stuff that appears to be different,

691
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: breaking out of the mold, getting past this strange um

692
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:16,279
Speaker 1: hierarchy of structure and sound. But ultimately, the industry is

693
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 1: not going to stop. It is simply going to evolve.

694
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 1: And luckily we all of us as individual listeners, can

695
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: still find and enjoy local music or independent stuff. We

696
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: can search forums, we can find Spotify playlists that we like,

697
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 1: and other listening platforms. But that leads us to the

698
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:40,959
Speaker 1: question about how those songs on Spotify or Pandora get recommended,

699
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: just like videos get recommended on YouTube, which we did

700
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: an episode on earlier. So how does that all happen? Well,

701
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: that's a story for another day. And No, I was

702
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: wondering how we would how would we close this, what's

703
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: a good question we could end on for all our

704
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists out there. Here there we go, M

705
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: how about send us some like pop songs that you

706
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: find interesting and some that you find pedantic and repetitive

707
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: and tell us why and what what makes the difference

708
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 1: for you? There we go. That sounds fantastic. Oh, I

709
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: have so many ideas, you might be saying, But how

710
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 1: can I tell you? Well, Luckily we are all over

711
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 1: the internet. You can find us on Instagram, you can

712
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter. You can find us on Facebook,

713
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: especially our community page. Here's where it gets crazy, where

714
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,240
Speaker 1: you can talk with your fellow conspiracy realists about pop

715
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: music for as long as you can stand to talk

716
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: about pop music. You can also call us if you'd

717
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 1: like to leave a voicemail. We are one eight three

718
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: three st d w y t K. And if none

719
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: of that quite tracks and loops for you never fear,

720
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: you can email us directly. We are conspiracy at how

721
00:44:53,640 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com. M