WEBVTT - #069 Jason Flom with Kim Kardashian West 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.720 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.680 I grew up trusting systems. I grew up believing that 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.280 every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.200 even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.360 I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.080 of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:42.840 I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:46.040 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:49.360 I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. And that's absolutely 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:50.120 what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.400 Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:55.480 a little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.480 I totally lost trusting humanity after what happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:21.160 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. With 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.600 Jason Flam Today, I have a very special guest, someone 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.760 who is a change maker in the criminal justice reform 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.520 movement who I'm absolutely delighted to have in the studio. 0:01:33.040 --> 0:01:35.600 So Kim Kardashian. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:37.200 Thank you for having me. 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:42.040 So Kim. I'm really amazed at what you've been able 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.959 to accomplish in a short time, and I'm thrilled to 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:50.080 have you as a public such a public voice and 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:54.440 face for the criminal justice reform movement. And I'm really 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.240 interested to find out how you got started on this 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:00.480 mission and what you plan to do going forward, because 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:06.440 I think the you know, the possibilities are limitless. So 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.560 what got your intention? I know there was an article 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:15.079 or a video you saw on Twitter, like sort of serendipity, right, Yeah. 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.560 That's how I think. Just because I'm not on my 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.200 phone all the time, I'm not on Twitter all the time. 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:22.960 It happened to be that exact moment that I saw 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:26.400 a video of Alice Johnson pop up on my feed 0:02:26.560 --> 0:02:31.720 that someone that I followed retweeted, and I just my 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.880 heart broke for her and her story just I connected 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.440 with it. For whatever reason, I just felt like it 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.640 was so wrong and that if I could do anything, 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.360 then I wanted to try. I truthfully didn't know I 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:46.280 was going to get that far. 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.079 I was about to ask you that, like, what did 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:50.520 I mean, because it's such a crazy thing, like the 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.800 idea that you like, getting someone out of prison is 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:57.880 you know, I mean, like it's like trying to catch 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:00.840 lightning in a bowl. Right, Yeah, you were like, I 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.120 got you just had to do it, and I had 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:03.920 that feel to do it. 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:06.480 Yeah, I mean, it was just a feeling that I 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.360 was like, I have to do it. And so you know, 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:15.239 she's she's a woman. I figured Evanka would totally understand 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.280 and feel the same thing that I felt. So my 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:20.520 first call was to Evanka, Well. 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.280 Wait a minut. Let's go back a second, Kim, because 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.800 can you explain the circumstances of this case, because it 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.880 is maddening when you know what happened to Alice, But 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:34.040 at the same time, it's really scarily typical. I mean, 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.240 she is not a unique case, but you know. 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:39.960 She wasly about three thousand alices. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.840 Oh yeah, there's so many people that are in her situation. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.760 It's just in her situation. So yeah, so she was 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:50.360 a part of a drug conspiracy. She had a great job, 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:57.800 worked at FedEx for ten years, lost her job, had 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:02.400 five kids, her youngest son died, had to make money, 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.600 had to feed her kids. Somebody told her, Hey, if 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.880 you're the phone mule, and if you answer the phone 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:14.760 and be that you know connection, you can make one 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:18.200 thousand dollars every time you answered the phone. So she 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:23.440 didn't do it often, but did it enough. She didn't 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:26.440 know who the people were, she didn't know the quantities, 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:28.640 she wasn't never touched the drugs. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:32.120 What the state was this Tennessee, right, So, and there's 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.080 a I have a lot of experience in Tennessee. But 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.000 so let's just think about this because there's almost an 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.120 element of My favorite book I've ever read was Lem 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.080 As a Rob and it's sort of informed and I 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.359 think influenced me to get started on this life, this 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.479 mission of criminal justice reform, because there's an element of that. 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:50.120 Right here. You have a mom who had a choice, 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.080 like she was having trouble feeding her family, and that's 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.640 so powerful, right, I mean, there's probably nothing more powerful 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.719 than a mother's love. And I'm not excusing her behavior 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:02.920 because it was technically illegal, but let's put ourselves in 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.839 her shoes for a second. Right, there's an interesting choice. 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.800 So you're faced with she wasn't a career criminal. 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:14.680 Never had any nothing in her history of anything criminal. 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:17.839 Her whole family, no one had a criminal record, really 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:22.440 good support system, really good team, made some bad choices 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.400 everyone else. Because it was this big conspiracy. Everyone got caught, 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:34.040 everyone got in trouble. Everyone I think pled guilty in 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:37.440 and out of jail. She I don't know what their 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:41.640 exact sentences were, but she pled not guilty, went to 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:43.919 trial because she was like I just I was just 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.920 answering the phones. I didn't even touch the drugs, see 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:48.880 the drugs, know the quantity. She knew it was drugs, 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.440 but didn't ask any questions. And she got life in 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:58.240 prison without the possibility of parole. And it was so crazy. 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:03.200 And that's an amazing thing too. And there's so many 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.680 interesting parallels right in the way that you and I 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:09.320 got started on this. And I want to go back 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.400 for a second. We'll come back to Alice. But you 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.560 wouldn't necessarily know this, but both of us have famous 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:18.200 fathers who were lawyers. Both of us did some crazy 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.080 stuff when we were kids that we know, and I've 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.080 seen you talk about this, which is why I'm referencing it. 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:26.080 Both of us are aware that we could have gotten 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:27.960 in real trouble for the things that we did when 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.720 we were kids, but we weren't in that situation, right, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.120 and we were able to know we had good guardian 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.880 angels or whatever it was, right, So there's, you know, 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:38.479 there's a little bit of a there but for the 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:41.320 grace of God go I right type of situation when 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.520 you see somebody like Alice. And both of us got 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:47.000 involved in this because of cases that we learned about 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.320 in the media. Because the first time I got involved 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:50.680 in a case was a guy I read about in 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.360 the newspaper. And this is where the media can play 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.480 such an important role. Who was serving fifteen years to 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.240 life for a non violent first offense cocaine possession charge. 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.320 And once again, that's fifteen years life for a nonviolent 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:07.200 first offense cocaine possession charge, right, And so I ended 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.159 up a long story short sitting in the courtroom holding 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.840 his mother's hand when we got the judge to reverse 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.800 the charges or to reduce the charges, I should say, 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.560 And he was freed after nine years of amandatory fifteen 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.960 but in her case, it's so important what you're saying 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.320 and what you're doing with Alice, and it's so important 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.280 that she's such a wonderful spokesperson because of the fact 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:31.960 that people need to understand that in these cases, the 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:35.360 least culpable person, which in this case was her, ends 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:39.040 up with the longest sentence. Why because a they don't 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.160 have information to trade. They probably went to her and said, Alice, 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.400 tell us who the kingpin is. She had no way 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:47.280 of knowing, no idea. And they also went to her 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.240 and said, plead guilty. Now then she's sitting there going, well, 0:07:50.240 --> 0:07:51.960 wait a minute, I plead guilty. They probably offer her 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.000 ten years or something, right, and who's wants to make 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:56.720 that choice. You're sitting there going, but I just answered 0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:58.040 the phone and I have a family to take care 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:00.600 of it whatever, and so you please, and then they 0:08:00.600 --> 0:08:02.520 throw the book at you. And that's exactly what happened. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.080 So this is a case that I've looked at from 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.960 like a case about Cinoya Brown, Like so many people 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.280 that I have looked at that have gotten life, It's 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:18.000 all been in Tennessee. Everything that I've gravitated towards has all. 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:20.000 Been in Tennessee and the story I was just telling 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:23.320 you about Nora Jackson, my you know who's become family 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:25.840 to me in a very real way. That was a 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:27.720 Tennessee case. She was actually in the same prison with 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:32.120 Cintoya for a period of time. Wow. So yeah, Tennessee is, 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:34.280 but it's not the worst state, believe it or not. Really. 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:38.720 Oklahoma recently passed Louisiana as the state that incarcerates the 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:43.160 highest number of people per capita. And let's talk about 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:44.480 that for a second game. As we were talking in 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:49.920 the studio earlier, right, America incarcerates five times as many 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:53.920 people per capita as the rest of the Western world. 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:57.960 So that means we have twenty five percent of the 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:00.760 world's prison population, but we only have four point four 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.640 percent of the world's population. So that can only mean 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:06.160 one of two things. Either Americans are the most evil 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:09.280 people in the world or we're doing something really wrong 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.199 because these other countries don't have problems with crime rates 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.920 or anything else. It's it's just not a deterrent. It's 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.200 it's just they have a more humane policy towards their 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.960 own people, and we are the incarceration nation. And then 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.199 the numbers get even worse when you get inside of them. 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.320 And now that you've had this experience, I know, we 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:29.599 went to a woman's prison and spent and then you 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.480 didn't go there and wave and leave. It wasn't a 0:09:31.480 --> 0:09:32.559 photo op, right, you were there. 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:33.600 I know it for a few hours. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:34.840 I know I heard. 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:39.040 The story, so it was it was fascinating. Honestly, I 0:09:41.480 --> 0:09:48.400 after Alice, I thought to myself, well, if someone murdered someone, 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:51.720 would I fight hard to get them out? Thinking that, 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.640 you know, to myself and having those conversations with my 0:09:54.720 --> 0:09:57.760 family members and my husband and right violent versus non 0:09:57.800 --> 0:10:00.560 violentce Yeah, and I thought, you know what, probably not 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.800 at first first thought. After going there and hearing these 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:10.880 women's stories, I was like, you know what, I absolutely would. 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:13.160 And I know, you know to some people that might 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:18.040 that might sound crazy, but hearing the circumstances that these 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.800 women have been in that have led them to the 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.680 journey of where they ended up or so many people 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:35.000 just self defense and being getting life and it was 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:40.720 so like heartbreaking. I never thought, you know, and I'm 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:42.640 so glad I went in. I can't wait to go back. 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:44.600 Wow, what a thing that is to say. Let's just 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:47.240 think about that for a second. Yeah, here's Kim Kardashian going, 0:10:47.320 --> 0:10:49.760 I can't wait, and you say I can't wait to go, 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.400 And if most people feel that and then go to 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:55.600 Mikonos to I guess the audience, let's guess the top 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:59.480 ten guesses win whatever. Right, prison wouldn't be most people's 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:01.360 guests of where you would want to go. You can 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.560 go anywhere. Yeah, you can be anywhere. You're Kim Kardashian. 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:08.079 Yeah, but I thought, I mean, I text my whole 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:12.160 family on my way saying, you know, hey, guys, I 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.400 won't have my phone for a few hours, so you know, 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:18.520 the kids, if anything, if anyone needs anything, you know, 0:11:18.800 --> 0:11:20.880 just whatever, I'll be back in a few hours. And 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:22.160 they were like, well, where are you going? And I 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:24.440 was like, oh, I'm going into prison. And they were like, 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.120 what where are you going? And I was like, I'm 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:27.880 so sorry. I forgot to tell you guys. You know, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:29.600 I'm just going to check it out. I want to 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:32.400 hear these women's stories and I just I'm just going, 0:11:32.480 --> 0:11:37.920 you know. And they were, you know, fascinated, and Chloe 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:39.640 had said, well, I wish you told me. I would 0:11:39.640 --> 0:11:43.440 have gone with you. And my mom is traveling and 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:44.840 she was like, you have to fill me in and 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:48.720 tell me everything, And it was just it was a 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:52.400 moment when I walked in. I mean to see when 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.480 I would walk down the halls and the women were 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:57.839 banging on the windows and sticking their heads out of 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.120 the windows, like the place was practically shaking, and everyone 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:06.320 was screaming, Kim's here, Kim Kardashian's here, are you going 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.160 to get us out? Get us out? You know, because 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:13.560 after Alice and it was it was a crazy, crazy experience, 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:19.360 but so it so normalized it for me just sitting 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:24.680 and talking to these women that I totally understood. 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:27.160 Them, you know, Kim. Brian Stevenson, who's a hero, a 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:31.440 great hero of mine, has a saying he says, and 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.440 he said this so powerfully in his Ted talk, which 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:37.400 I recommend everybody watch. He said, I believe everyone's better 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.320 than the worst thing they've ever done. Now, I'm not 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.960 somebody who believes we should just open the doors and 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:45.440 everybody should go free. We're a nation of laws. I 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.520 think we have to enforce laws, but we have to 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.000 make the laws humane, we have to make them sensible, 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:52.679 and we have to reverse this mass incarceration. We had 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.000 three hundred thousand people in prison thirty something years ago. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:57.600 Now we have two point two million, like we have. 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.520 And inside the number right you have and you touched 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:03.720 on this, right, there's so many women in prison. We 0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.959 have twenty five percent of the world's prison population. We 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.680 have thirty three percent of the world's female prison population. 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.280 And going back to Oklahoma, they have double that per capita. 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.959 Right have they over indexed the rest of the country 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:18.320 by double in Oklahoma? And your head's gonna explode when 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.920 I tell you this, right in Oklahoma, And we're working 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.240 on this now, trying to make a big change. But 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.600 in Oklahoma, if you're pregnant and the baby daddy beats 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.040 you up, whether it's a boyfriend, husband, lover, whatever it is, 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:33.400 you are guilty of endangering the welfare of a child 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:34.920 and you can go to prison for life. 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.320 So it's crazy for being beat up. 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:40.280 And you don't have to have instigated it, you don't 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:42.280 have to do it. You could be stuck in a room, 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.840 it doesn't matter. Like that's how crazy the laws are. 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.400 And then there's all these women who were in prison 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:50.400 because they were like Alice Johnson, they were the low 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.800 level person on the team in some sort of quote 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.800 unquote conspiracy. Right. These are not big drug dealers or kingpins. 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.600 These are girlfriends who answered the phone like she did, 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:03.839 or who were in the car when their boyfriend, their 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.800 de other boyfriend got pulled over, like Kembus Smith, who 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:08.920 I got President Clinton to grant clemency to all those 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:10.840 years ago, who. 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:12.800 Just showed it was a woman that was not even 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.320 in the same county when a murder happened and the 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:19.120 boyfriend blamed it on her. And I don't know her 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:23.920 exact story, but she got life because he probably rotted 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.800 her out and it was you know, there was no 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:32.600 physical connection to her being there, and she was pregnant 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:36.240 and had the baby in prisons, never seen her baby 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.680 was thirty years ago. She wasn't even there the same county, right, 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:42.960 heard life. 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.400 I've heard those stories before too, and it's it's so 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.720 strange to me why we treat our women this way. 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:49.800 And there's there's I mean, we could talk about this 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.280 literally for days. Yeah, there's there's shaken baby syndrome, right, 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.280 which is there's hundreds and hundreds of people, maybe thousands, 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.000 in prison for shaking. Maybe a lot of them are 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:03.240 women takers they're even babysitters whatever. And these babies died 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.160 of natural causes. It's crib death. There's no such thing 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:09.120 as shaking baby syndrome. It's a made up thing. You 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.240 cannot shake a baby, and almost every top neurologist agrees 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:14.680 on this. You can't shake a baby hard enough to 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.080 kill it, to rattle its brain without breaking its neck. 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.520 And now these babies have broken necks. Think about it. 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.680 It's ridiculous. Your brain's not that soft. I mean, babies, 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.200 you know they You ever thought about that? It's crazy, right. 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.800 So there's a whole group of women who people say, well, 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.520 she's a murderer. No, actually, she's a woman who lost 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:34.800 her child and now she's in prison for life because 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.000 some overzealous prosecutor or some other thing went wrong in 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:41.200 the system, and now they're stuck in there forever. And 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.920 it's like, and Michelle Murphy, who's who I'm extremely connected to, 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:46.040 I call her my knee. She calls me uncle. It's 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:48.320 an Oklahoma case who was convicted of She's been on 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.640 my podcast, on the same podcast that you are sitting 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:52.960 here like you are now. And we were on the 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:57.040 Doctors together and Michelle was convicted of murdering her fifteen 0:15:57.040 --> 0:16:00.800 week old baby, and she was a gree shesly framed. 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:03.040 So she served twenty years of a life sentence, and 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.520 she before her conviction was overturned with prejudice, which is 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.960 like the strongest that a court can say this was wrong. 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:14.560 And the judge after she was exonerated said that in 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:16.640 his four decades on the bench it was the worst 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:30.360 miscarriage of justice he'd ever seen. So, you know, there's 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.360 a huge number of people, and then they're even the ones, 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.880 like you said, who were self defense cases right. 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.160 Where most of what I said, like I understand, I 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:44.160 obviously don't understand the act of you know, killing someone, 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:50.440 but the act of if you are getting abused and 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.480 you have children and you're protecting them and you fight 0:16:53.560 --> 0:16:58.560 back and the person dies and you have life because 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.360 you've been beaten for so many years. And I mean 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.639 so many of these cases that of these women that 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.800 were sharing their stories with me, just I felt them 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:11.960 and that just you know, I feel like even just 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:15.120 hearing about all the programs in prison and really how 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:17.000 to get people back on their feet for when they 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.080 get out, there's so many flaws. Like I was like overwhelmed, 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.480 leaving thinking like, well, I don't even know where to start, 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:27.639 Like there's so much wrong with the system. I don't 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:28.720 even know where to start. 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:30.840 But you did start, and you are starting, and you're 0:17:30.880 --> 0:17:33.560 here now, and that is making a huge difference, just 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:35.800 the fact that you're here and that you're able to 0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:36.800 use your voice. 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:39.400 I'm learning. That's why I wanted to go, because I 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.160 was like, I don't have any connection to prison. I've 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.800 never been to prison. I don't. I want to go, 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:46.480 and I want to see what it's like, and I 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.800 want to hear from people that are living it, what 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:54.199 their experience is like and what could change what you know, 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:56.800 just I'm learning. I'm learning as I go. 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.119 I think it's so important, you know, to highlight the 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.280 idea that you know, both of us got involved in 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:05.960 this stuff because of stories you heard about it on 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:08.119 social media. I heard about it in old media. Right, 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:10.200 it was just a newspaper article. Right, I was holding 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:12.439 into my hands. Right. Some people are like, wait, what's that? 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:16.600 But you know, it's so important. If you know someone 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.560 who was wrongfully convicted or who is serving an unjust sentence, 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.080 you must talk about it. You must call reporters you 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.760 must reach out to whoever you can think of, because 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:29.680 you never know. Talk about it to your friends and 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:31.480 a diner, there might be someone at the next table 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:34.120 who knows someone who knows someone. The world is actually 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.040 small that way, and everybody has the ability to make 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.160 a difference, and you know, and it needs to be done. 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.720 I mean, it's so easy for me to empathize with 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.159 the people who are serving these sentences and to just 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.480 sit there and go I can't. I literally can't think 0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:49.840 of anything worse. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.240 Than to So it's the worst when I mean, yesterday 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:58.359 I had a call with a gentleman that's in prison 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:04.080 for a drug case. Got life. It's so unfair. He's 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.359 thirty years old, he's been in for almost ten years. 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.480 It was a marijuana case, right, yeah, yeah, he had 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.960 his prior conviction to get him to his three strikes 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:20.480 was marijuana and then marijuana with less than half a 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:22.879 gram of cocaine possession. 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:24.840 Half a gram. That's like a sweetened low package for 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.520 people who aren't familiar. That's like, that's literally like how 0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:29.119 much is in a Sweden love like less maybe a 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:29.720 little less than that? 0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:33.320 Got life. And I was on the phone with the 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:38.760 judge that sentenced him to life, who resigned because he 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:41.919 had never been on the side of having to do 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.680 something so unfair, and now he is fighting with us 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:50.240 to get him out. And it's just, I mean, when 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.160 you see it, at least it gave me like such 0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:58.080 hope that the jet like you think, it was a 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.680 mandatory sentence that he had to deliver, and he knew 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:03.520 it was so wrong, and he was like, I'm going 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.119 to make this right. I'm going to step down and 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.000 I'm going to help to fight to get him out. 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.119 And I spoke to him on the phone from prison 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.200 and it was, you know, just a really crazy. It's 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.680 just there's so many people like. 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:21.360 Him, and it's so important what you're saying, and because 0:20:21.400 --> 0:20:24.159 of the fact that these mandatory sentencing laws and I 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:26.560 got involved. The first organization I ever got involved was 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.320 Families Against Mandatory Minimums. After I got that first guy, 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.040 Stephen Lennon out, I was hooked, like you're hooked now, 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.120 and I love seeing it in you because you're young 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.919 enough to be my own daughter, and so it's so 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.520 exciting to see another generation. And it's this movement is 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.400 growing so fast and we're going to turn it upside down. 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.000 We're going to there's no stopping. And so the first 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:50.400 thing I did, after having that cathartic experience of sitting 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:52.760 there holding missus Lennon's hand as her son was as 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.320 a judge, you know, slammed the gavel down and ruled 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:56.960 that she was going to be free, he was to 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.159 be freed. I did some research and I found out 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:03.160 about this organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, and they 0:21:03.240 --> 0:21:07.040 are a wonderful organization that has done fantastic things. I've 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:08.840 been on their board now for twenty five years, so 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:12.840 I'm like a true believer. But they've been we've been 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:19.000 reversing these mandatory sentencing laws state by state, federally as 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:21.000 you know, as much as we can, as many as 0:21:21.000 --> 0:21:23.720 we can, and we're never going to stop until there's fairness. 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.680