Speaker 1: I've never been to trouble in my life. I didn't
Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, and you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: I was brought up like cops are the good guys.
Speaker 1: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I
Speaker 1: do know that everything was stacked against me. Everything like
Speaker 1: everything this isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent.
Speaker 1: I know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with this. How is this possible? I grew up
Speaker 1: trusting the systems. I grew up believing that every human
Speaker 1: thing should do the right thing. And that's why, even
Speaker 1: though I was dealing with corrupt people, I wasn't going
Speaker 1: to brave anyone to get me out of prison because
Speaker 1: I wouldn't live with the fact that I braved my
Speaker 1: way out of my wife's death. I'm not innocent to
Speaker 1: proven guilty. I'm guilty until I proved my innocence. And
Speaker 1: that's absolutely what happened to me. Our system. Since I've
Speaker 1: been out ten years, it's come a little ways, but
Speaker 1: it's still broken, a totally little trust in humanity after
Speaker 1: what happened to me. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam Today, I have a
Speaker 1: very special guest, someone who is a change maker in
Speaker 1: the criminal justice reform movement who I'm absolutely delighted to
Speaker 1: have in the studio. So Kim Kardashian. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, so Kim, I'm really amazed
Speaker 1: at what you've been able to accomplish in a short time,
Speaker 1: and I'm thrilled to have you as a public such
Speaker 1: a public voice and face for the criminal justice reform movement.
Speaker 1: And I'm I'm really interested to find out how you
Speaker 1: got started on this mission and what you plan to
Speaker 1: do going forward, because um, I think the you know,
Speaker 1: the possibilities are limitless. So what got what got your intention?
Speaker 1: I know there was an article or a video you
Speaker 1: saw a Twitter like sort of serendipitous. Yeah, that's how
Speaker 1: I think. Just because I'm not on my phone all
Speaker 1: the time, I'm not on Twitter all the time, it
Speaker 1: happened to be that exact moment that I saw a
Speaker 1: video of Alice Johnson pop up on my feed. That's
Speaker 1: someone that I followed, retweeted, and I just my heart
Speaker 1: broke for her and her story just I connected with
Speaker 1: it for whatever reason. I just felt like it was
Speaker 1: so wrong and that if I could do anything, then
Speaker 1: I wanted to try. I truthfully didn't know I was
Speaker 1: going to get that far. I was about to ask
Speaker 1: you that, like, what did I mean, because it's such
Speaker 1: a crazy thing, like the idea that you like, getting
Speaker 1: someone out of prison is you know, I mean, like
Speaker 1: it's like trying to catch lightning in a bottle, right,
Speaker 1: So you were like, I got you, just you you
Speaker 1: had to do it, and I had that to do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it was just a feeling that I was like,
Speaker 1: I have to do it. And so you know, she's
Speaker 1: she's a woman. I figured Ivanka I would totally understand
Speaker 1: and feel the same thing that I felt. So my
Speaker 1: first call was to Ivanka, well wait, let's go back.
Speaker 1: A second came because can you explain the circumstances of
Speaker 1: this case, because it is maddening when you know what
Speaker 1: happened to Alice, and but at the same time, it's
Speaker 1: really scarily typical. I mean, she is not a unique case,
Speaker 1: but you know, she probably about three thousand analysis. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: there's so many people that are in her situation. It's
Speaker 1: just in her situation. So yeah, so she was a
Speaker 1: part of a drug conspiracy. She had a great job,
Speaker 1: worked at FedEx for ten years. Um lost her job,
Speaker 1: had five kids, her youngest son died. I'd um had
Speaker 1: to make money, had to feed her kids. Somebody told her, Hey,
Speaker 1: if you're the phone mule, and if you answer the
Speaker 1: phone and be that you know connection, you can make
Speaker 1: a thousand dollars every time you entered the phone. So
Speaker 1: she didn't do it often, but did it um enough.
Speaker 1: She didn't know who the people were, she didn't know
Speaker 1: the quantities, she wasn't never touched the drugs Tennessee. Right, So,
Speaker 1: and there's a I have a lot of experience in Tennessee.
Speaker 1: But so let's just think with this because there's almost
Speaker 1: an element of My favorite book I've ever read was
Speaker 1: Lame Aser Rob and it's sort of informed, and I
Speaker 1: think it influenced me to get started on this life,
Speaker 1: this mission of criminal justice reform, because there's an element
Speaker 1: of that. Right here. You have a mom who had
Speaker 1: a choice, like she was having trouble feeding her family,
Speaker 1: and that's so powerful, right, I mean, there's not probably
Speaker 1: nothing more powerful than a mother's love. And I'm not
Speaker 1: excusing her behavior because it was technically illegal, but put
Speaker 1: let's put ourselves in her shoes for a second. Right,
Speaker 1: there's an interesting choice. So you're faced with she wasn't
Speaker 1: a career criminal, never had any nothing in her history
Speaker 1: of anything criminal. Her whole family, no one had a
Speaker 1: criminal record, really good support system, really good team, made
Speaker 1: some bad choices, um everyone else because it was this
Speaker 1: big conspiracy. Everyone got caught, everyone got in trouble. Everyone
Speaker 1: I think pled guilty in and out of jail. She
Speaker 1: I don't know what their exact sentences were, but she
Speaker 1: pled not guilty, went to trial because she was like
Speaker 1: I just I was just answering the phones. I didn't
Speaker 1: even touch the drugs, see the drugs, know the quantity.
Speaker 1: She knew it was drugs, but didn't ask any questions.
Speaker 1: And she got life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Speaker 1: And it was so crazy. And that's an amazing thing too.
Speaker 1: And we there's so many um interesting parallels right in
Speaker 1: the way that you and I got started on this,
Speaker 1: And I want to go back for a second. We'll
Speaker 1: come back to Alice. But you wouldn't necessarily know this,
Speaker 1: but both of us have famous fathers who were lawyers.
Speaker 1: Both of us did some crazy stuff when we were
Speaker 1: kids that we know, and I've seen you talk about this,
Speaker 1: which is why I'm referencing it. Both of us are
Speaker 1: aware that we could have gotten in real trouble for
Speaker 1: things that we did when we were kids, but they weren't.
Speaker 1: We weren't in that situation, right, and we were able
Speaker 1: to you know, we had good guardian angels or whatever
Speaker 1: it was, right. So there's you know, there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of it there. But for the grace of God,
Speaker 1: go I right type of situation when you see somebody
Speaker 1: like Alice. And both of us got involved in this
Speaker 1: because of cases that we learned about in the media.
Speaker 1: Because the first time I got involved in the case
Speaker 1: was a guy I read about in the newspaper. And
Speaker 1: this is where the media can play such an important role.
Speaker 1: Who was serving in fifteen years of life for a
Speaker 1: non violent first offense cocaine possession charge. And once again,
Speaker 1: that's fifteen years the life for a non violent first
Speaker 1: offense cocaine possession charge, right, And so um I ended
Speaker 1: up a long story short sitting in the courtroom holding
Speaker 1: his mother's hand when we got the judge to reverse
Speaker 1: the charges or to to reduce the charges, I should say,
Speaker 1: And he was freed after nine years of a mandatory fifteen.
Speaker 1: But in her case, it's so important what you're saying
Speaker 1: and what you're doing with Alice, and it's so important
Speaker 1: that she's such a wonderful spokesperson because of the fact
Speaker 1: that people need to understand that in these cases, the
Speaker 1: least culpable person, which in this case was her, ends
Speaker 1: up with the longest sentence. Why because a they don't
Speaker 1: have information to trade. They probably went to her and said, Alice,
Speaker 1: tell us who the kingpin is. She had no way
Speaker 1: of knowing. And they also went to her and said,
Speaker 1: plead guilty. Now. Then then she's sitting there going, well,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, I plead guilty. They probably offered ten
Speaker 1: years or something, right, and she and who wants to
Speaker 1: make that choice? You're seeing there? But I just answered
Speaker 1: the phone and I have a family to take care
Speaker 1: of and whatever, and so you plead innes and then
Speaker 1: they throw the book at you. And that's exactly what happened.
Speaker 1: So this the case that I've looked at from like
Speaker 1: a case about Centoia Brown, like so many people that
Speaker 1: I have looked at that have gotten life It's all
Speaker 1: been in Tennessee. Everything that I've gravitated towards has all
Speaker 1: been in Tennessee. And the story I was just telling
Speaker 1: you about Nora Jackson, my U you know, who's become
Speaker 1: family to me in a very real way, that was
Speaker 1: a Tennessee case. She was actually in the same prison
Speaker 1: with Centoia for a period of time. Um so, Um, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Tennessee is, but it's not the worst state, believe it
Speaker 1: or not. Oklahoma recently passed Louisiana as the state that
Speaker 1: incarce rates the highest number of people per capita. And
Speaker 1: and let's talk about that for a second. Came as
Speaker 1: we were talking the studio earlier. Right, America incarceerates five
Speaker 1: times as many people per capita as the rest of
Speaker 1: the Western world, So that means we have of the
Speaker 1: world's prison population, but we only have four point four
Speaker 1: percent of the world's population. So that can only mean
Speaker 1: one of two things. Either Americans are the most evil
Speaker 1: people in the world, or we're doing something really wrong
Speaker 1: because these other countries don't have problems with crime rates
Speaker 1: or anything else. It's not it's just not a deterrent.
Speaker 1: It's not. It's just they have a more humane policy
Speaker 1: towards their own people, and we are the incarceration nation.
Speaker 1: And then the numbers get even worse when you get
Speaker 1: inside of him. And now that you've had this experience,
Speaker 1: I know you went to a woman's prison and spent
Speaker 1: and then you didn't go there and wave and leave.
Speaker 1: There wasn't a photo op, right you were there. I
Speaker 1: heard the story, so it was it was fascinating. Honestly.
Speaker 1: I after after Alice, I thought to myself, well, if
Speaker 1: someone murdered someone, what I fight hard to get them out?
Speaker 1: Thinking that, you know, to myself and having those conversations
Speaker 1: with my family members and my husband and right violent
Speaker 1: versus non violence. Yeah, and I thought, you know what,
Speaker 1: probably not at first first thought. After going there and
Speaker 1: hearing these women's stories, I was like, you know what,
Speaker 1: I absolutely would. And I know, you know to some
Speaker 1: people that might that might sound crazy, but hearing the
Speaker 1: circumstances that these women have been in that have led
Speaker 1: them to the journey of where they ended up for
Speaker 1: so many people, um just self defense and being getting
Speaker 1: life and it was so like heartbreaking. I never thought,
Speaker 1: you know, And I'm so glad I went, and I
Speaker 1: can't wait to go back. Wow, what a thing is
Speaker 1: to think about that for a second. Here's Kim Kardashian going,
Speaker 1: I can't wait, and you say I can't wait to go,
Speaker 1: And if most people feel that and then go to me,
Speaker 1: I guess, let's guess the top ten guests win whatever. Right,
Speaker 1: prison wouldn't be most people's guests. You would want to go.
Speaker 1: You can go anywhere, you can be anywhere. You're Kim Kardashian.
Speaker 1: But I thought, I mean, I text my whole family
Speaker 1: on my way saying, you know, hey, guys, I won't
Speaker 1: have my phone for a few hours, so you know,
Speaker 1: the kids, if anything, if anyone needs anything, you know,
Speaker 1: just whatever, I'll be back in a few hours. And
Speaker 1: they were like, well, where are you going? And I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'm going into prison. And they were like,
Speaker 1: what where are you going? And I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry. I forgot to tell you guys. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm just going to check it out. I want to
Speaker 1: hear these women's stories and I just I'm just going,
Speaker 1: you know. And um, they were, you know, fascinated, and
Speaker 1: Chloe had said, wow, I wish you told me. I
Speaker 1: would have gone with you. And my mom is traveling
Speaker 1: and she was like, you have to fill me in
Speaker 1: and tell me everything. And it was just it was
Speaker 1: a moment when I walked in. I mean to see
Speaker 1: when I would walk down the halls and the women
Speaker 1: were banging on the windows and sticking their heads out
Speaker 1: of the windows, like the place was practically shaking, and
Speaker 1: everyone was screaming, Kim's here, Kim Gardashians here, are you
Speaker 1: going to get us out? Get us out? You know,
Speaker 1: because after Alice and and it was it was a crazy,
Speaker 1: crazy experience, and but so it so normalized it for
Speaker 1: me just sitting and talking to these women that I
Speaker 1: totally understood them. You know, Kim. Bryan Stevenson, who's a
Speaker 1: hero or a great hero of mine, um has a
Speaker 1: saying he says, and he said this so powerfully and
Speaker 1: his Ted Talk, which I recommend everybody watch. He said,
Speaker 1: I believe everyone's better than the worst thing they've ever done. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm not somebody who believes we should just open the
Speaker 1: doors and everybody should go free. And we're national laws.
Speaker 1: I think we have to enforce laws, but we have
Speaker 1: to make the laws humane, we have to make them sensible,
Speaker 1: and we have to reverse this mass incarceration. We had
Speaker 1: three hundred thousand people in prison thirty something years ago. No,
Speaker 1: we have two point two million, like we have. And
Speaker 1: inside the number right you have and you touched on this, right,
Speaker 1: there's so many women in prison. We have tcent on
Speaker 1: the world's prison population. Were thirty three percent of the
Speaker 1: world's female prison population. And going back to Oklahoma, they
Speaker 1: have double that per capita, right they have. They over
Speaker 1: index the rest of the country by double in Oklahoma.
Speaker 1: And your head's gonna explode. But I tell you this
Speaker 1: right in Oklahoma, and we're working on this now, trying
Speaker 1: to make a big change. But in Oklahoma, if you're
Speaker 1: pregnant and the baby daddy beats you up, whether it's
Speaker 1: a boyfriend, husband, lover, whatever it is, you are guilty
Speaker 1: of endangering the welfare of a child and you can
Speaker 1: go to prison for life. So it's crazy for being
Speaker 1: beat up. And you don't have to have instigated it,
Speaker 1: you don't have to do it. You could be stuck
Speaker 1: in a room, doesn't matter. Like that's how crazy the
Speaker 1: laws are. And then there's all these women who were
Speaker 1: in prison because they were like Alex Johnson, they were
Speaker 1: the low level person on the team on in some
Speaker 1: sort of quote unquote conspiracy. Right. These are not big
Speaker 1: drug dealers or kingpins. These are girlfriends who answered the
Speaker 1: phone like she did, or who were in a car
Speaker 1: when their boyfriend, their dealer boyfriend got pulled over, like
Speaker 1: Kembas Smith, who I got President Clinton to grant clemency
Speaker 1: to all those years ago. Um who just showed there
Speaker 1: was a woman that was not even in the same
Speaker 1: county when a murder happened and the boyfriend blamed it
Speaker 1: on her. And I don't know her exact story, but
Speaker 1: she got life because he probably rated her out and
Speaker 1: it was you know, there was no physical connection to
Speaker 1: her being there, and she was pregnant and had the
Speaker 1: baby in prisons, never seen her baby was thirty years ago.
Speaker 1: She wasn't even there in the same county. And I've
Speaker 1: heard those stories before too, and it's it's so strange
Speaker 1: to me why we treat our women this way. And
Speaker 1: then there's there's I mean, we could talk about this
Speaker 1: literally for days. There's there's shaking baby syndrome, right, which
Speaker 1: is there's hundreds and hundreds of people, maybe thousands, in
Speaker 1: prison for shaking. Maybe if a lot of them or
Speaker 1: women care takers, they're even babysitters whatever. And these babies
Speaker 1: died of natural causes. It's crib death. There's no such
Speaker 1: thing as shaking baby syndrome. It's a made up thing.
Speaker 1: You cannot shake a baby, and almost every top neurologis
Speaker 1: agrees on this. You can't shake a baby hard enough
Speaker 1: to kill it, to rattle its brain without breaking its neck.
Speaker 1: And then these babies that broken necks. Think about it,
Speaker 1: it's ridiculous. Your brain is not that soft. I mean babies,
Speaker 1: you know they didn't. It's crazy, right, So there's there's
Speaker 1: a whole group of women who people would say, well,
Speaker 1: she's a murderer. No, actually she's a woman who lost
Speaker 1: her child and now she's in prison for life because
Speaker 1: some over zealous prosecutor or some other thing went wrong
Speaker 1: in the system, and now they're stuck in there forever.
Speaker 1: And it's like and Michelle Murphy, who's who I'm extremely connected.
Speaker 1: I call her my knee. She calls me uncle. It's
Speaker 1: an Oklahoma case who was convicted of She's been on
Speaker 1: my podcast, on the same podcast that you are sitting
Speaker 1: here like you are now, um, And we were on
Speaker 1: the Doctors together, and Michelle was convicted of murdering her
Speaker 1: fifteen week old baby um and she was green usually framed,
Speaker 1: so but she served twenty years of a life sentence,
Speaker 1: and she before her conviction was overturned with prejudice, which
Speaker 1: is like the strongest that a court can say this
Speaker 1: was wrong. And the judge after she was exonerated said
Speaker 1: that in his four decades on the bench it was
Speaker 1: the worst miscarriage of justice he'd ever seen. So, you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's a huge number of people, and then they're
Speaker 1: even the ones, like you said, who were self defense
Speaker 1: cases right where most of what I said, like I understand,
Speaker 1: I obviously don't understand the act of you know, killing someone,
Speaker 1: and but the act of if you are getting abused
Speaker 1: and you have children and you're protecting them and you
Speaker 1: fight back and the person dies and you're you have
Speaker 1: life because you've been beaten for so many years. And
Speaker 1: I mean so many of these cases that of these
Speaker 1: women that were sharing their stories with me, just I
Speaker 1: I felt them, and that just you know, I feel
Speaker 1: like even just hearing about all the programs in prison
Speaker 1: and really how to get people back on their feet
Speaker 1: for when they get out, there's so many flaws, Like
Speaker 1: I was like overwhelmed leaving, thinking like, well, I don't
Speaker 1: even know where to start, Like there's so much wrong
Speaker 1: with the system. I don't even know where to start.
Speaker 1: But you did start, and you are starting, and you're
Speaker 1: here now, and that is making a huge difference, just
Speaker 1: the fact that you're here and that you're able to
Speaker 1: use your voice and learning. That's why I wanted to go,
Speaker 1: because I was like, I don't have any connection to prison.
Speaker 1: I've never been to prison. I don't I want to go,
Speaker 1: and I want to see what it's like, and I
Speaker 1: want to hear from people that are living it, what
Speaker 1: their experiences like and what could change what you know,
Speaker 1: just I'm learning, I'm learning as I go. I think
Speaker 1: it's so important, you know, to highlight the idea that
Speaker 1: you know, both of us got involved in this stuff
Speaker 1: because of stories we you heard about it on social media.
Speaker 1: I heard about it in old media. Right, it was
Speaker 1: just a newspaper article. Right, I was holding into my hands. Right.
Speaker 1: Some people are there like, wait, what's that? But you know,
Speaker 1: it's so important if you know someone who was wrongfully
Speaker 1: convicted or who is serving an unjust sentence, you must
Speaker 1: talk about it. You must call reporters, you must reach
Speaker 1: out to whoever you can think of, because you never know,
Speaker 1: talk about it to your friends, and at dining there
Speaker 1: might be someone at the next table who knows someone
Speaker 1: who knows someone. The world is actually small that way,
Speaker 1: and everybody has the ability to make a difference, and
Speaker 1: you know, and it needs to be done. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's so easy for me to empathize with the people
Speaker 1: who are serving these sentences and to just sit there
Speaker 1: and go I can't I literally can't think of anything
Speaker 1: worse than it's the it's the worst when I mean,
Speaker 1: yesterday I had a call with UM, a gentleman that's
Speaker 1: in prison for um a drug case, got life. It's
Speaker 1: so unfair. He's thirty years old, he's been in for
Speaker 1: almost ten years. Was a marijuana case, right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he had UM his prior conviction for it to get
Speaker 1: him to his three strikes was marijuana and then marijuana
Speaker 1: with less than half a graham of cocaine possession. That's
Speaker 1: like a Sweden low package for people who aren't familiar.
Speaker 1: That's like, that's literally like how much is in a
Speaker 1: Sweden love? Like less? Maybe a little lesson that got
Speaker 1: life and I was on the phone with the judge
Speaker 1: that sentenced him to life, who resigned because he had
Speaker 1: never been on the side of having to do something
Speaker 1: so unfair, and now he is fighting with us to
Speaker 1: get him out. And it's just, I mean, when you
Speaker 1: see it, at least it gave me such hope that
Speaker 1: the jet like you think, it was a mandatory sentence
Speaker 1: that he had to deliver, and he knew it was
Speaker 1: so wrong, and he was like, I'm going to make
Speaker 1: this right. I'm gonna step down and I'm going to
Speaker 1: help to fight to get him out. And I spoke
Speaker 1: to him on the phone from prison and it was,
Speaker 1: you know, just a really crazy. It's just there's so
Speaker 1: many people like him, and it's so important what you're saying.
Speaker 1: And because of the fact that these mandatory sentencing laws.
Speaker 1: And I got involved the first organization I ever got
Speaker 1: involved with his Families against Mandatory minimums. After I got
Speaker 1: that first guy, Stephen Lennon out, I was hooked, like
Speaker 1: your hooked now. And I love seeing it in you
Speaker 1: because you're young enough to be my own daughter. And
Speaker 1: so it's so exciting to see another generation um and
Speaker 1: and it's this movement is growing so fast, and we're
Speaker 1: going to turn it upside down. We're going to there's
Speaker 1: no stopping. And so the first thing I did, after
Speaker 1: having that cathartic experience of sitting there holding Mrs Lennon's
Speaker 1: hand as her son was as a judge, you know,
Speaker 1: slammed the gabble down and ruled that she was going
Speaker 1: to be free. He was he was to be freed.
Speaker 1: I did some research and I found out about this
Speaker 1: organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, and they are a
Speaker 1: wonderful organization that has done fantastic things. I've been on
Speaker 1: their board now for twenty five years, so I'm like
Speaker 1: a true believer. But they've been we've been reversing these
Speaker 1: mandatory sentencing laws, state by state, federally um as you know,
Speaker 1: as much as we can, as many as we can,
Speaker 1: and we're never going to stop until there's fairness. And
Speaker 1: it's interesting because, you know, it really struck home to
Speaker 1: me what you said about this judge saying I couldn't
Speaker 1: believe I had to send like that doesn't make any Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so you know, it's interesting because the history of
Speaker 1: mandatory sentencing laws is that originally they were my understanding
Speaker 1: as they were passed because Congress thought, well, it's not
Speaker 1: right that in some cases a different judge for the
Speaker 1: same crime might send somebody more harshly or or leniently. Um,
Speaker 1: And so they were trying to make it, you know,
Speaker 1: more of an even playing field. But then they just
Speaker 1: started going, well, had the tough on crime here, Let's
Speaker 1: just make tougher and tougher sentences, show how tough we
Speaker 1: are on crime. They started passing mandatory sentences for everything,
Speaker 1: and they made them tougher and tougher without any regard
Speaker 1: for what they were doing to society. And so you
Speaker 1: end up with a situation where in two thousand I
Speaker 1: went to the Senate and I did a presentation for
Speaker 1: the Democratic Policy Committee in the Senate. Twenty four senators there,
Speaker 1: and I went. One of the people I went with
Speaker 1: was I went with Amy foul Full. It was a
Speaker 1: woman who I convinced President Clinton to grand prommency too
Speaker 1: um and Julie Stewart who runs Families Against Mandatory me
Speaker 1: and it was the founder of Families Against Pantory. And
Speaker 1: federal Judge Castillo came with us, and he was the
Speaker 1: vice chair of the U S Sentence in Commission. Big,
Speaker 1: powerful guy, a guy you really think like looks and
Speaker 1: act like you would you'd cast him as a judge.
Speaker 1: And he said, you guys confirmed me unanimously to do
Speaker 1: the most difficult job that anyone can have, which is
Speaker 1: to sentence another human being to prison, and then you
Speaker 1: took away my ability to do it. He goes, I
Speaker 1: just sit there and look at a chart, and then
Speaker 1: I just have to sense people to these crazy sences,
Speaker 1: regardless of I think it exists. If you that's what
Speaker 1: it is. You see, if I I got a list
Speaker 1: of some people that I was going to meet with
Speaker 1: and I just read their sentences, and I would have thought, no,
Speaker 1: there's not a chance, I, you know, would ever think
Speaker 1: that this, you know, like not even knowing their circumstances.
Speaker 1: Then you come and you meet these people. What's on
Speaker 1: paper and what's in person is so different, and that
Speaker 1: is the hard part is just I mean, you obviously
Speaker 1: can't get to know everyone and and go around to
Speaker 1: every prison and meet people and help everyone. I mean,
Speaker 1: but like the the laws really just have to change.
Speaker 1: And I do know that. I do talk to the
Speaker 1: White House um often on this subject, um with Jared Kushner,
Speaker 1: and he is really passionate about change some of these
Speaker 1: laws and getting a lot of bills passed, and hopefully
Speaker 1: some thing's will get past. I'm just I'm hopeful. Well,
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of movement in the States,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna say I think that if we could
Speaker 1: get too involved in isolated cases with state laws, no
Speaker 1: people in prison America and state prison right, so the
Speaker 1: you know, the federal Uh, it's going to move much
Speaker 1: slower in the federal level for the time being. And
Speaker 1: it's very important to work on the micro and the macro. Right.
Speaker 1: The micro is its the Alice Johnson's of the world,
Speaker 1: the Stephen Lennons of the world, the Lenny Singleton who
Speaker 1: I was had the thrilling experience of walking out of
Speaker 1: prison in Virginia a few weeks ago. Um. But the
Speaker 1: macro is changing these laws so it doesn't happen to
Speaker 1: other people. Because if you're listening out there and you
Speaker 1: don't think it can happen to you, it can happen
Speaker 1: to you. And by the way, be aware, like if
Speaker 1: you're riding in a car and someone else has drugs
Speaker 1: and you get pulled over and nobody takes responsibility for
Speaker 1: it, it it belongs to everybody. If it's in the glove
Speaker 1: compartment and or the or the trunk or under the seat,
Speaker 1: absolutely you can be just so you can get caught up.
Speaker 1: If you think this can happen to you, it can happen.
Speaker 1: I was when I was talking to Chris Young, who's
Speaker 1: who's in prison. He has um sickle cell anemia, so
Speaker 1: he's had to have a few surgeries. So he's been
Speaker 1: in a medical facility for a few years. And he
Speaker 1: goes back into um the maximum security prison where lifers
Speaker 1: have to go, and he's so like he's had a
Speaker 1: perfect record, and he was saying, like, I can stay
Speaker 1: out of trouble in here, but going in there, I'm
Speaker 1: you know, they're stabbing, there's this, and if you're near that,
Speaker 1: you can get in trouble so easily. And I you know,
Speaker 1: he was just didn't want to get caught up in
Speaker 1: a situation that had nothing to do with him, but
Speaker 1: could very much have by you know, the close proximity
Speaker 1: have so much to do with him, and it's just,
Speaker 1: you know, it's scary when you, you know, have a
Speaker 1: minor drug charge, but then you get life and you're
Speaker 1: stuck in this crazy maximum security prison with murderers and
Speaker 1: and people that you know, just it's a completely different
Speaker 1: environment than the environment that he's so used to. Life
Speaker 1: in prison for a non violent offense. And there's no
Speaker 1: other country that does that. I mean, it's so nuts
Speaker 1: the way we treat our own people, you know. And
Speaker 1: I talked to politicians and I'll be like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: if another country treated our people the way we do,
Speaker 1: we'd invade. Like, you're not getting away with that. You
Speaker 1: can't do that to our citizens, are you nuts? Put
Speaker 1: him in these gulags, these violent places where they were
Speaker 1: that breed disease and and and you know, abuse, all
Speaker 1: kinds of abuse, physical, sexual where there's stabbings and you
Speaker 1: you're to basically just try to stay alive. And some
Speaker 1: of them are privatized on't even get me started on that.
Speaker 1: No other country would do this, but we do it
Speaker 1: to our own citizens, who are just regular people until
Speaker 1: one day they're caught up in and the next thing
Speaker 1: you know, there they are, and it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: people just sort of forget about them. We can't forget
Speaker 1: about them. Okay, let me ask you something, So can
Speaker 1: you describe that feeling like when you found out that
Speaker 1: Alice was going to go home, and you knew that
Speaker 1: you had a lot to do with it, right, that
Speaker 1: you were really the driving force behind giving this woman,
Speaker 1: this lovely woman by all accounts everything I've heard about
Speaker 1: her her life back like, I mean, that's not exaggeration.
Speaker 1: She was going to die in prison? What was that?
Speaker 1: How did you find out about it? Number one? Where
Speaker 1: were you? What were you doing? Was it hot? Was
Speaker 1: it cold? What were you sitting down? Did you scream?
Speaker 1: And how did it feel? Can you explain that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was on a photo shoot with Stephen Klein and
Speaker 1: it was a very racy photo shoot. I'm like practically
Speaker 1: naked and my phone rings, and I knew that I
Speaker 1: should be. I mean, it would have been this really
Speaker 1: long roller coaster of is this going to happen? Is
Speaker 1: it not going to happen? You know, after I had
Speaker 1: gone to the White White House. So we're definitely against you.
Speaker 1: Let's just say that, yes, um, and then get a phone.
Speaker 1: My phone rings and it says unknown and so I'm like,
Speaker 1: give me a you know, get me a robe, hold on, stop,
Speaker 1: you know, And I've run over and I answer the
Speaker 1: phone and it is the President and Um, he let
Speaker 1: me know himself that he was going to release Alice
Speaker 1: and he was signing the paper right then and there,
Speaker 1: and UM, I just was like in shock. I was
Speaker 1: just so happy. Scream Did you cry? Um? I didn't
Speaker 1: cry until I called Alice to tell her myself, And UM,
Speaker 1: you got to bake the news to her. Yes, I
Speaker 1: got to break the news to her, and UM, it
Speaker 1: was just it was crazy because so I spoke, you know,
Speaker 1: to the president. He let me know, um that that
Speaker 1: was what was going to happen, and he was going
Speaker 1: to sign the papers right then and there and she
Speaker 1: could be released that day. And you know, I didn't know,
Speaker 1: does it happen right away? Is there a process? Is it?
Speaker 1: You know? What is it? So he was gonna let
Speaker 1: her go, you know, he told me she can leave today.
Speaker 1: So I called the attorneys. Um. A woman named Brittany
Speaker 1: was really heading it from Buried Alive, the organization Buried Alive.
Speaker 1: So her and I have been in contact of how
Speaker 1: you know, with Chris Young, who I'm you know, working
Speaker 1: with now and all these other people. She really brings
Speaker 1: me people that you know, she really was backing Alice
Speaker 1: for you know, years and helping Alice. So Brittany, M
Speaker 1: Brittany Barnett and what's the organization? Because I want to
Speaker 1: be buried alive. Yeah, buried alive. So, um, she's been
Speaker 1: amazing and so so great and has brought me people
Speaker 1: that she thinks that I would really connect with, like
Speaker 1: Chris and um, she's been great to work with. So
Speaker 1: she I call um my attorney Sean, who connects me
Speaker 1: with Brittany, and they call Alice, and so Alice says
Speaker 1: that she got, you know, uh on the loudspeaker, like Alice,
Speaker 1: come to hear you know, phone call. So she gets
Speaker 1: on the phone and she assumes that it's a regular
Speaker 1: attorney's call. I mean, she obviously knows that I went
Speaker 1: to the White House and we're just waiting. And I
Speaker 1: filled her in right after I was done with the
Speaker 1: White House on how the conversation went. And I said
Speaker 1: to her, you know, it couldn't have gone any better.
Speaker 1: I know, I gave it my all. I feel like
Speaker 1: we gave an amazing pitch and I feel like the
Speaker 1: President hurt us and did feel like she had spent
Speaker 1: her time and I felt that and so I felt
Speaker 1: really confident. And I'm the type of person, where like
Speaker 1: I don't like to get excited. I don't overspeak until
Speaker 1: something is done and ready and you know, finished, So
Speaker 1: I didn't want to get her too excited. But I
Speaker 1: knew it went well. So then, um, I didn't know
Speaker 1: what happened this quick and um, because it had been
Speaker 1: about six months of me talking to Jared Kushner and
Speaker 1: and getting this all happening. It wasn't a quick overnight thing.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like Kim called, she got a meeting, did
Speaker 1: this happened? Did not happen like that. It was a
Speaker 1: long time getting her file together and a lot of
Speaker 1: fighting for her. So, um, Alice gets on the phone
Speaker 1: and I thought that the attorneys had told her already
Speaker 1: because I was just jumping in the call and I
Speaker 1: thought we were just going to have the celebrate, celebratory call.
Speaker 1: I had no idea. She didn't know, so she wasn't
Speaker 1: like screamed. She wasn't and I know her, I feel
Speaker 1: like she'd cry and be screaming and thanking me. And
Speaker 1: she just was kind of like, Hey, what's going on?
Speaker 1: What's up? And I was like, oh, it's Kim. I'm
Speaker 1: on the phone, And she was like, Hey, how are you?
Speaker 1: And then I said, oh, wait, you don't know, because
Speaker 1: I was so shocked that she was so calm, and
Speaker 1: she said no, no, what And I said, Alice, You're
Speaker 1: going home, and the screams and the cries and that's
Speaker 1: when I cried. It was like three minutes on the
Speaker 1: phone of like tears, no one can speak. And then
Speaker 1: finally she was like, Okay, well what do I do?
Speaker 1: Where do I go? Like, and I was like the
Speaker 1: attorneys jumped in to tell her the protocol, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it was just it was such a cool thing, such
Speaker 1: a cool moment. I was like, Okay, this feeling. If
Speaker 1: I used my resources to make this happen for her,
Speaker 1: what else can we do? Was that one of the
Speaker 1: happiest moments in your life? It really was? It really
Speaker 1: really was. Meeting her was was another one. Just just
Speaker 1: seeing her family, seeing because you can hear about it
Speaker 1: and like, like I was talking about on paper and
Speaker 1: in person. I when I saw the video of Alice,
Speaker 1: that's what changed me. If I were to just hear
Speaker 1: the story, I would definitely feel something. But when I
Speaker 1: saw her, heard her talk, saw her eyes, felt her
Speaker 1: soul and what her family was missing out on, and
Speaker 1: her missing out on her grand babies and her parents
Speaker 1: dying and all this stuff. Yeah, her great grandchildren. I
Speaker 1: felt like a connection, like, well, I have all you know,
Speaker 1: I have a big family, and I would be devastated
Speaker 1: if something like that happened in my family. So meeting
Speaker 1: her family and seeing that all come to life and
Speaker 1: and like what you were saying in the studio earlier,
Speaker 1: she didn't even know have a cell phone before seeing
Speaker 1: her figure out an iPhone and how to you know
Speaker 1: what an emoji was, and like the simple things that
Speaker 1: was really crazy to just she just wanted to do
Speaker 1: the simplest things. So you know, it's interesting too. It's
Speaker 1: another parallel because UM many years ago, in two thousand, UM,
Speaker 1: I was fortunate to get to have dinner with President Clinton.
Speaker 1: UM in a group, but I was at his table
Speaker 1: and I got him to talk to me about the
Speaker 1: drug laws, and you know, he admitted they were wrong.
Speaker 1: And he said, you know, I think if someone breaks
Speaker 1: the law, they should, uh, they should go to jail,
Speaker 1: but the shouldn't spend the best years of their life
Speaker 1: there for a non violent fence. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: so we agree on that, and I gave him a letter,
Speaker 1: uh from a woman who he had He had granted
Speaker 1: a few clemencies up to that point, and I gave
Speaker 1: him a letter from one of the women he had
Speaker 1: granted clemency too, who was one of those ones like
Speaker 1: a crow front of a drug dealer and as an
Speaker 1: Arkansas case. And he read it and I said to him,
Speaker 1: Mr President, um, what you did for these five people
Speaker 1: was heroic, wonderful, but I know hundreds of other cases
Speaker 1: just as bad as those. And he said, in front
Speaker 1: of the whole table, he said, you get him to
Speaker 1: me and I'll sign him. And I was like, and
Speaker 1: well then I was like, wait what hold on? Okay,
Speaker 1: I said, okay, let me just get my wits about
Speaker 1: me right. The whole tables like, look like, what did
Speaker 1: you say? And so I said, well, Mr President, when
Speaker 1: you leave here tonight, you're not I never met him before.
Speaker 1: I was like, you're not gonna be the easiest guy
Speaker 1: to me to get on the phone, like how do
Speaker 1: you reckon? And I do that and he told me
Speaker 1: the whole proper channels to go through the Chief Council,
Speaker 1: the Justice part, the whole thing, right, And so then
Speaker 1: I worked with families against mandatory minimums and we found
Speaker 1: cases that fit the criteria that he wanted to see
Speaker 1: non violent first defenders serving these crazy sentences. And um,
Speaker 1: you just brought this memory back from me. So thank
Speaker 1: you for that, because we and and it took. I
Speaker 1: had to push a lot even from that point, like
Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't like the next day, Hey, everything's great,
Speaker 1: you know, but you know, perseverance is an important part
Speaker 1: of my story. And uh, and ultimately, um, that was
Speaker 1: only if that was only I think there was September
Speaker 1: of his last year in office, only had until January.
Speaker 1: And uh, I think my dad helped me with that.
Speaker 1: Funny enough, because we ended up putting together seventeen cases. Um,
Speaker 1: ultimately more we found more. I think it was a
Speaker 1: total of twenty three that we ended up asking for.
Speaker 1: These were all famies against mandatory minimums cases, and he
Speaker 1: granted two in December. And I was with my dad,
Speaker 1: the famous lawyer dad of mine, who really put this justice,
Speaker 1: this this sense of fairness and ethics and morality into me.
Speaker 1: Um and who you know, was my hero growing up
Speaker 1: and he's not around anymore, but I happen to be
Speaker 1: having lunch with him on his birthday, which was December twentieth.
Speaker 1: I said, Dad, this is ridiculous. He told me, who's
Speaker 1: gonna He only gave me two and uh, and my
Speaker 1: dad helped me at that point forward. He said, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I have an idea how to help, and he
Speaker 1: got involved and you know, connected me with someone else
Speaker 1: who you know, connected me with don't And you know,
Speaker 1: it's just like you, like you, you just have to
Speaker 1: keep pushing and ultimately held President clim Grant the Climacy
Speaker 1: the seventeen of those people, and you know many of
Speaker 1: them have gone on to achieve higher degrees of learning. Uh.
Speaker 1: Peter and Im got a master's degree from like Kansas State.
Speaker 1: Kembas Smith is now an attorney in Atlanta. She's a
Speaker 1: public defender. I believe you got a degree from a
Speaker 1: lot of reef University of Michigan. These are all people
Speaker 1: who just needed a second chance, you know, and and
Speaker 1: my and I hope we can really shift the public
Speaker 1: consciousness on this together, Kim, because these people are not dangerous.
Speaker 1: These are people who just want a chance and they'll
Speaker 1: work harder. And if you're an employer, you're somebody has
Speaker 1: a business out there giving somebody like them. A chance
Speaker 1: when they get out is the best decision you're going
Speaker 1: to make, because they will work harder and do better
Speaker 1: because they're so great now. They do not want to
Speaker 1: go back. They don't want to go back. They've learned.
Speaker 1: They didn't need these long sentences to learn. They want
Speaker 1: to have a life and have a chance. And I
Speaker 1: have not. I've been knocked wood. I've been very fortunate
Speaker 1: that of all the people, all the clemency cases I've
Speaker 1: worked on, state and federal, none of them have reoffended. Um,
Speaker 1: not all of them, and not all of them are
Speaker 1: doing fantastic, you know, I mean it doesn't It's still
Speaker 1: very challenging on the outside. It's what I call the
Speaker 1: second punishment, right, the stigma that is associated with you know,
Speaker 1: formerly incarcerated people's system affected people. But so many of
Speaker 1: them are doing wonderful things, raising families. You know. Stephen Lennon,
Speaker 1: the first guy, you know, he ended up having a family. Oh,
Speaker 1: I think you great, right, So Stephen Lennon Um, six
Speaker 1: months after he got out, I said this. I was
Speaker 1: doing a ted X talk from inside a maximum security
Speaker 1: prison in Uganda in March, and I told this story.
Speaker 1: So Stephen got out and um, And that one took
Speaker 1: about six months as well, from the time I first
Speaker 1: read the story in the newspaper. And five months later
Speaker 1: I got a letter in the mail from a woman
Speaker 1: whose name I didn't recognize in Cincinnati, Ohio. So I
Speaker 1: was like, I think her name was joe Ane Paris.
Speaker 1: I don't know anyway, So I opened the letter and
Speaker 1: it started off, dear Jason, you don't know me, but
Speaker 1: you've got me pregnant. And that's what I said. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, wait what, I'm starting to think my
Speaker 1: mind's racing. Did I go to Cincinnati, Like, oh my god, right, no, man,
Speaker 1: I ever wants to hear those words. And I was like,
Speaker 1: wait what And so I read on and it says, um,
Speaker 1: just so you know, my brother Stephen Lennon, and for
Speaker 1: the last five years, my husband and I've been trying
Speaker 1: to conceive, and the and the doctor told me that
Speaker 1: the stress of my brother's incarceration was preventing us from
Speaker 1: getting pregnant. And I'm pregnant. Just thought you wanted to know.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh man, this is the gift
Speaker 1: that just keeps on giving. So it is, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's such a joy. I saw it in the videos,
Speaker 1: and why I really wanted to have you on the
Speaker 1: show is because I saw, you know, I saw an
Speaker 1: interview you did with Mike and I read uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the various stories about your involvement and your um, your
Speaker 1: you know, and your joy just came through uh in
Speaker 1: all of it. And it is it's a it's a
Speaker 1: sense of pure joy and it is it is better
Speaker 1: than anything I know, um in terms of I mean,
Speaker 1: we both are are lucky to be you know, I
Speaker 1: have a family and to have the you know that
Speaker 1: that's a different category, right, I don't think you can compare.
Speaker 1: That's a you know, anyone out there who has kids,
Speaker 1: you know, can relate to that. Um. But if you
Speaker 1: take that aside, it's hard to think of a better feeling.
Speaker 1: I know, for me that day when I got that
Speaker 1: phone call that President Clinton was headmanted those clemencies, it was, um,
Speaker 1: the best feeling in the world, the best someone know
Speaker 1: that you're going to change someone's life forever, and I
Speaker 1: just want to do more that. I'm going to keep
Speaker 1: doing it until I am it's on my last breath.
Speaker 1: I mean, because it's it's a purpose, it's I call
Speaker 1: it selfish altruism. You know, it makes me feel good. Um.
Speaker 1: I love doing it. I love talking about it. I
Speaker 1: love seeing people like you get involved with it. I
Speaker 1: love the movement spreading. I love the laws that were changing.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to you know, look, it's amazing. Thirty
Speaker 1: years ago, if someone said, hey, you know, marijuana is
Speaker 1: going to be legal in most of America, I would
Speaker 1: have said, no, it's not possible. But we fought, like
Speaker 1: so many of us fought for this, you know. And
Speaker 1: there's no reason anyone should go to jail from marijuana.
Speaker 1: And and that's changing. There's still people like Chris who
Speaker 1: are in prison for life for marijuana, a plant that's legal.
Speaker 1: And how'd you like to be him or his family?
Speaker 1: A little cocaine, a little like a half a Graham?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, a half a Graham. Let's think about that.
Speaker 1: Graham is such a small amount. It's like, think about that.
Speaker 1: It's happy. I don't even know, it's like, um, but yeah,
Speaker 1: so look, we've got a ton of work to do.
Speaker 1: Um you you know, we need more of you. I
Speaker 1: think we need to. Really. The last point I want
Speaker 1: to talk about it is clemencies. Um, you have shown
Speaker 1: um in a very public way that this act of mercy,
Speaker 1: this act of uh, it's a responsibility really. I mean,
Speaker 1: the reason governors and presidents are given that power is
Speaker 1: because they're supposed to do things like this, right, it's there,
Speaker 1: it's part of their job. And over the years it's
Speaker 1: declined so much. UM been the post Willie Horton era.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, everyone was scared to give clemencies.
Speaker 1: And that's not right. And I know that for me,
Speaker 1: whether it was working with Governor mccauliffe or other governors
Speaker 1: i've worked with, or during the Obama administration, or with
Speaker 1: President Clinton, UM, every single time I've had the experience
Speaker 1: of working with a political leader who's in a position
Speaker 1: to killos clemencies, in the aftermath, they've come to me
Speaker 1: and said that it was a profound experience for them.
Speaker 1: In many cases they meet the people who they've rantham
Speaker 1: clemency to. President Clinton told me subsequently he wished he
Speaker 1: would have done more, you know. And so for people
Speaker 1: who are out there listening, who may work in the
Speaker 1: offices of these will do more. I think I think
Speaker 1: with your support and other people like you advocating, they
Speaker 1: will and I think we can we can do so
Speaker 1: much better in the States as well. And I'm hoping
Speaker 1: to meet Governor Brown and whoever will be the next governor. Hopefully.
Speaker 1: I'm a Newsom fans. I hope Kavin Newson is the
Speaker 1: next governor. But um, but the yes. Governor Brown has
Speaker 1: express a great deal of interest in this. He's worked,
Speaker 1: He's granted quite a few clemencies already, and I think
Speaker 1: he has his heart in the right place. He wants to.
Speaker 1: You know, he is someone who is on the same
Speaker 1: page as us in terms of life without parole being
Speaker 1: an insane sentence. It's an insane sentence, life without parole,
Speaker 1: and you know, you know, and I will I said
Speaker 1: it was gonna be the last point, but to make
Speaker 1: more point because for people out there listening, you're paying
Speaker 1: for this, right, I mean, you know who's making money
Speaker 1: the prison. This is the prison industrial contex, the private prisons.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people making money on these inmates,
Speaker 1: on these these incarcerated people. But you're paying for it.
Speaker 1: It doesn't come from the air, it doesn't come from
Speaker 1: you know, it's not it's like it. And and in
Speaker 1: some states we spend more money in carswriting Americans and
Speaker 1: we do educating them and so and then of course
Speaker 1: the kids end up with no parents and then they're
Speaker 1: much more likely to get in trouble and so, you know,
Speaker 1: everything from bail reforms. There's just so many important things
Speaker 1: that have to be done. But we have to end
Speaker 1: mass and car serrated. We can do it, UM, and
Speaker 1: we will do it together. So for everybody listening out there,
Speaker 1: you know, get involved UM. Go to Families Against Mandatory
Speaker 1: Minimums f A m M dot org. Go to Buried
Speaker 1: Alive dot org, go to UM Innocence Project dot org.
Speaker 1: Get online, learn about it. The all these websites have
Speaker 1: pages where you can get involved, post an event, raise money,
Speaker 1: write letters to inmates. So important, I mean, give a
Speaker 1: little hope to my reading. Now I don't read books anymore.
Speaker 1: I I read letters. I get stacks of letters daily
Speaker 1: that inmates write me. So I love to read them
Speaker 1: and go through them and hear their stories and I hope.
Speaker 1: But all you know changes, Yeah, Well it's those people
Speaker 1: are you know, those people are smart because they're reaching out.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's a tragically, there's so many people
Speaker 1: inside who have given up hope. UM, and you know,
Speaker 1: and at the same time we've we've both had the
Speaker 1: experience of seeing what it's like when they get out.
Speaker 1: These people are so full of grace and so full
Speaker 1: of you know. The the amazing thing is, for everyone
Speaker 1: I've met whose system effected form and incarcerated, there's not
Speaker 1: one of them who's better. They all have this the
Speaker 1: same thing that I saw with Alice, you know, when
Speaker 1: she was speaking. They're they're just optimistic and they're um.
Speaker 1: They have, like I said, this state of grace, and
Speaker 1: and that puts so much gratitude in my attitude when
Speaker 1: I see these people who are like they've just been
Speaker 1: through this ordeal that no one can even imagine that
Speaker 1: hasn't been through it. I can't um and I've been
Speaker 1: around it for twenty five years, and yet they come
Speaker 1: out like, hey man, let's go. Like you know, I
Speaker 1: was actually talking to my friend, the artist. I was
Speaker 1: talking to my friend, the artist Peter Tuney today about
Speaker 1: a guy named Keith Alan Harvard has been on the
Speaker 1: same podcast, who was in prison for thirty four years
Speaker 1: for crime you didn't commit and uh, he has nothing.
Speaker 1: But I don't know. There's so many cases that I've
Speaker 1: been reading about that lately, just completely innocent and just
Speaker 1: people that have been in for thirty plus years when
Speaker 1: just DNA testing is so different, Like um, Kevin Cooper.
Speaker 1: Kevin Cooper tweeted for Governor Brown, I'm like, please, just
Speaker 1: DNA tests you gotta do. It's like the most just
Speaker 1: find out whether he's guilty or innocent to DNA, he
Speaker 1: doesn't lie, you know, That's what that there should just
Speaker 1: that is what literally kills me. Stories like his that
Speaker 1: it's so simple and he could have been executed too.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many innocent people on death row.
Speaker 1: We know that approximately the best estimates are the four
Speaker 1: percent of people on death row are innocent. So I
Speaker 1: imagine that when I talked to people who are in
Speaker 1: favor of the death penalty, I'm like, well, okay, how
Speaker 1: many innocent people? Is it okay to execute people? Go?
Speaker 1: No, no no, no, But I mean you can't actually, but
Speaker 1: you know the system is like, how can you be
Speaker 1: on death row without DNA evidence, with nothing linking you
Speaker 1: like to It's so crazy to me, that's just crazy.
Speaker 1: There was there have been executions where we've been fighting
Speaker 1: to get the DNA tested and they've refused right up
Speaker 1: until the day of the execution, and Gonda had to
Speaker 1: execute somebody anyway. I mean, it's um, It's just it is.
Speaker 1: There was one in Kansa. There was Kansas last year
Speaker 1: that we were fighting like health and get this DNA tested,
Speaker 1: and they just wouldn't do it. It was a guy
Speaker 1: named adele Um and he's gone now. And it's like
Speaker 1: the Stag should not be in the business of killing
Speaker 1: people because we the system is never going to be perfect,
Speaker 1: even if everybody's well intentioned, it's not going to be perfect.
Speaker 1: And for people listening out there, and they've heard me
Speaker 1: say this on the show before, when we convict an
Speaker 1: innocent person and we keep them in prison even when
Speaker 1: the authorities know they're innocent, that means that the guilty
Speaker 1: person it's free. Just like in Kevin Cooper's case. Everybody
Speaker 1: knows it was the three white guys that did it.
Speaker 1: There's overwhelming evidence of that, and those guys were free
Speaker 1: to go out, and there's like, I mean, the guy's
Speaker 1: girlfriend called and said, I mean everyone that makes no sense, Like,
Speaker 1: wouldn't the community be more scared knowing that there's like
Speaker 1: some multiple people said it was three white guys and
Speaker 1: then just to know that they're not locked up and
Speaker 1: they have a black guy locked up instead, like that
Speaker 1: fear to me would I don't know. It's so so twisted,
Speaker 1: so twisted, and it's and it's not. It's it's very common,
Speaker 1: you know, in so many of the cases the Innocence Project,
Speaker 1: when we exonerate an innocent person with DNA, we then
Speaker 1: put the DNA in the national database and we can
Speaker 1: often get a hit. I don't know if it's business
Speaker 1: presented a time and we were able to show who
Speaker 1: the actual perpetrator was. And in an overwhelming percentage of
Speaker 1: those cases, that person has gone on and raped and
Speaker 1: murdered other people, innocent people because they were free because
Speaker 1: youth alreadies didn't do their job. And and sometimes there's
Speaker 1: a mistake. I understand nobody's prayer think that, you know,
Speaker 1: everyone makes mistakes. That makes mistakes of my job. But
Speaker 1: there's a not a lot of these cases like Kevin Cooper,
Speaker 1: where it was obvious from the beginning that he didn't
Speaker 1: do it, and they had that that that case came
Speaker 1: with instructions, just like the Central Park five did the
Speaker 1: Central Park five And I interviewed ud Souf Salama last
Speaker 1: week in New York on this show. You know, in
Speaker 1: that case, they had every reason to suspect that it
Speaker 1: was this guy, Matthias Rays. They were already watching him.
Speaker 1: He was a suspect in another similar rape and beating
Speaker 1: where the Central Park Jogra was almost you know, beaten
Speaker 1: to death. Blood. They knew it had to be him,
Speaker 1: They knew it was a single perpetrator. And they rested
Speaker 1: these five black kids just because black and hispanic, just
Speaker 1: because they could. And then the testing came back and
Speaker 1: they saw that none of the blood matched the blood
Speaker 1: of the perpetrator was there the seamen. It didn't match
Speaker 1: any of those kids, and they went ahead and prosecuted
Speaker 1: them anyway. And then this Matthias Rays guy went out
Speaker 1: and raped four other women and killed one of them
Speaker 1: in the apartment with her three children there. She was pregnant.
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't get worse, and she said, can
Speaker 1: I please just put my kids in the other room
Speaker 1: before you kill me? And then he did and he
Speaker 1: went ahead and killed her. And like that woman should
Speaker 1: be alive today, and I believe that the authority should
Speaker 1: be held responsible for her death because they knew who
Speaker 1: it was, but they had so much media on that case.
Speaker 1: And that's another thing for people to be aware of
Speaker 1: when you're on a jury, when there's so much media
Speaker 1: around a case, and and making a murderer made this
Speaker 1: point very well too, right, And and you know we
Speaker 1: can have a debate about that all day long. But
Speaker 1: Brendan Dascy is innocent, right, He's totally as he's still
Speaker 1: in prison. But and that that I wanted to jump
Speaker 1: through the screen and that watched that movie and strangle somebody.
Speaker 1: I was like, if I could jump, I mean so,
Speaker 1: but yeah, so in those cases, and Kevin Cooper is
Speaker 1: one of those cases where it's abundant for thirty something
Speaker 1: years and he could have very well been executed, And
Speaker 1: there's so many Kevin Cooper's out there, and it has
Speaker 1: I mean, it has to change where their DNA testing
Speaker 1: it though I think they're going to finally saw online. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's like, it's it's a it's a massive problem. Look,
Speaker 1: I mean we were going to fix it. Um, it's
Speaker 1: a huge challenge. But you know, nothing comes easy. I
Speaker 1: mean here it is, isn't today like Mandela's hundredth birthday
Speaker 1: or something like that. So what a way to celebrate
Speaker 1: by bringing attention to this, this amazing cause. And you
Speaker 1: know came. I could literally sit here and talk to
Speaker 1: you all day. I see your like a sponge. You're
Speaker 1: learning so much and such a I don't know everything,
Speaker 1: and I love to ask questions. I love to listen
Speaker 1: to stories and just soak it all in and see
Speaker 1: what I can do next. Yeah, well we're going to
Speaker 1: We're gonna do big things together. Um, I can see
Speaker 1: it now. I'm I'm just as you can tell, I'm
Speaker 1: so excited that I can't stop talking because I just
Speaker 1: this is what gets me, as you can tell, most excited,
Speaker 1: like the thrill of being able to help you know,
Speaker 1: Noorra Jackson or a Michelle Murphy or and to make
Speaker 1: a difference in the lives of those people who are
Speaker 1: just people like you and me, who one day we're
Speaker 1: just living their life and then the justice system just
Speaker 1: collapsed on them. And well, first of all, my listeners know,
Speaker 1: if you get arrested for something and you didn't do it,
Speaker 1: don't say anything. The cops are not your friends. They're
Speaker 1: going to bring you in. They say, hey, we just
Speaker 1: want to ask a few questions. The only thing you
Speaker 1: say is my name is Kim. I had to ask you,
Speaker 1: here's my address, and I want a lawyer. That's it.
Speaker 1: And then shut up after you say you I want
Speaker 1: a lawyer. They they're not allowed to talk to you anymore,
Speaker 1: but if you start talking, they'll eventually get you to
Speaker 1: say almost anything they'll say. You'll say you can not
Speaker 1: the Lindbergh baby if they keep you no long enough
Speaker 1: and know what I mean. So um, But so for
Speaker 1: people out there listening, um, you know, get involved, be woke, right,
Speaker 1: serve on jury duty because it's so important yours, someone
Speaker 1: else's life will be in your hands. And vote. I
Speaker 1: mean you have to vote. You have to to learn
Speaker 1: about these cases. Look at the d a's races, right,
Speaker 1: there's such low turn out in these races. Get out
Speaker 1: there and vote for the progressive candidates because there are
Speaker 1: people like Larry Krasner who just got elected in Philadelphia,
Speaker 1: who's gonna turn the system upside down on right because
Speaker 1: he comes in and he goes, look, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to tolerate this, like we're not going to lock up
Speaker 1: innocent people. We're not going to prosecute people for these ridiculous,
Speaker 1: low level nonviolent crimes. Pot offenses things like that, like
Speaker 1: we need progressive prosecutors because they hold all the power.
Speaker 1: And that goes back to what I was saying, which
Speaker 1: is that criminal defense attorneys there. It's it's such a
Speaker 1: tilted system, right, you know, the scales of justice are
Speaker 1: supposed to be even. But if you're poor and you
Speaker 1: get caught in the system and you have a public
Speaker 1: defender who's overworked, underpaid, maybe maybe he doesn't even know
Speaker 1: what they're doing. I mean, we've had cases death penalty
Speaker 1: cases where the divorce lawyer did it or something like that,
Speaker 1: or like somebody or people who are drunk, or even
Speaker 1: in Texas, there was a case where the lawyer was
Speaker 1: asleep and the Court of Appeals in Texas. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: lawyers slept and the and the Court of Appeals ruled
Speaker 1: that because the guy appealed and said he was entitled
Speaker 1: to an attorney that was, you know, awake, and they said, no, no,
Speaker 1: you're entitled to attorney, but not necessarily one that's awake.
Speaker 1: So we've seen cases where the attorney was drunk with
Speaker 1: the attorney didn't show up. But even in the best case,
Speaker 1: public defenders are overworked, underpaid. They don't have the resources.
Speaker 1: In some states you have five to defend even a
Speaker 1: capital case. You can't hire investigators. Going back to what
Speaker 1: you said before, whereas the prosecutors, Yeah, and the prosecutors
Speaker 1: of all this power, they're able to decide, they're able
Speaker 1: to go to you and say, listen, nineties six percent
Speaker 1: of all felony convictions of America are the result of
Speaker 1: guilty please, because the prosecutors have so much power, because
Speaker 1: they can go to an Alice Johnson they say, listen,
Speaker 1: we're gonna give you life in prison unless you plead guilty.
Speaker 1: And you may not have even done anything, but you're
Speaker 1: public defender. You're looking, You're going that guy doesn't look
Speaker 1: like that woman doesn't look like they know what they're doing.
Speaker 1: I'm in big trouble here, Like they're stacked against But
Speaker 1: you've got all these you know, and a jury comes
Speaker 1: in with an inherent bias thinking that if you're up
Speaker 1: on the stand, you must have done something. This has
Speaker 1: been proven in the study that was done by my
Speaker 1: friend Josh Dubin. So you have a really like a
Speaker 1: Sophie's choice or Hobson's choice, because you know you're you're
Speaker 1: facing these prosecutors and they have a reverse incentive, which
Speaker 1: is that they want convictions. They don't necessarily want justice
Speaker 1: for them because evictions to right, they'd rather have a
Speaker 1: guilty person out there then and just to get a
Speaker 1: conviction and get it off their desk. And then they
Speaker 1: and then they go home and have a nice dinner
Speaker 1: and go to sleep, watch a little TV. And it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't understand the lack of of of humanity, that
Speaker 1: that's inherit that so, Kim, like I said, I could
Speaker 1: literally talk to you all day. I I really enjoy it,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to keep you here all day.
Speaker 1: And UM, but I do want to. UM. I have
Speaker 1: a tradition here on Rath convictions and listeners know, UM,
Speaker 1: they're used to this, and this is my favorite part
Speaker 1: of the show. UM. Usually it's an ex honoree sitting
Speaker 1: where you are, or someone who is incarcerated. Um. But
Speaker 1: this part of the show is where I shut up
Speaker 1: and I say to you, first of all, Kim, thank
Speaker 1: you for being here and taking your time. I know
Speaker 1: you could be doing a million other things, but for
Speaker 1: having me and lending your voice to the movement. And
Speaker 1: now I just want to say, turn the mic over
Speaker 1: to you and say what if you want to leave
Speaker 1: our audience, it's with any thoughts at all? What would
Speaker 1: they be? Just that I didn't know anything going into
Speaker 1: this and I still don't know everything. I'm learning so
Speaker 1: much as I go, but I know that I have
Speaker 1: a voice and so I am happy to use it.
Speaker 1: So if you feel passionate about this at all, to
Speaker 1: anyone just out there listening, there's so much you can
Speaker 1: do to help, and I just encourage you to do that.
Speaker 1: Wise words, and UM, I want to once again thank you,
Speaker 1: UM if there has been a real pleasure for me today,
Speaker 1: it was nice to meet you. Thank you, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: thanks for being here. And uh, once again, you've been
Speaker 1: listening to a very special episode of Wrongful Conviction UM
Speaker 1: with Kim Kardashian and Jason Flam don't forget to give
Speaker 1: us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts. It
Speaker 1: really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence
Speaker 1: Project and I really hope you'll join me in supporting
Speaker 1: this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions.
Speaker 1: Go to Innocence Project dot org to learn how to
Speaker 1: donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team,
Speaker 1: Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music in the show
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: Flam is a production Lava for Good Podcasts and association
Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one