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Speaker 1: I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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Speaker 1: even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: I was brought up with cops are the good guys.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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Speaker 2: do know that everything was stacked against me.

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Speaker 3: Everything like everything.

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Speaker 2: This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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Speaker 2: know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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Speaker 2: with this. How is this possible?

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Speaker 3: I grew up trusting systems. I grew up believing that

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Speaker 3: every human being should do the right thing. And that's why,

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Speaker 3: even though I knew I was dealing with corerough people,

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Speaker 3: I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out

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Speaker 3: of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that

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Speaker 3: I break my way out of my wife's death.

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Speaker 1: I'm not innocent, too proven guilty.

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Speaker 3: I'm guilty until I prove my innocence. And that's absolutely

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Speaker 3: what happened to me.

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Speaker 1: Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it's come

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Speaker 1: a little ways, but it's still broken.

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Speaker 3: I totally lost trusting humanity after what happened to me.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. With

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Speaker 4: Jason Flam Today, I have a very special guest, someone

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Speaker 4: who is a change maker in the criminal justice reform

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Speaker 4: movement who I'm absolutely delighted to have in the studio.

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Speaker 4: So Kim Kardashian. Welcome to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: So Kim. I'm really amazed at what you've been able

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Speaker 4: to accomplish in a short time, and I'm thrilled to

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Speaker 4: have you as a public such a public voice and

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Speaker 4: face for the criminal justice reform movement. And I'm really

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Speaker 4: interested to find out how you got started on this

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Speaker 4: mission and what you plan to do going forward, because

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Speaker 4: I think the you know, the possibilities are limitless. So

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Speaker 4: what got your intention? I know there was an article

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Speaker 4: or a video you saw on Twitter, like sort of serendipity, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That's how I think. Just because I'm not on my

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Speaker 1: phone all the time, I'm not on Twitter all the time.

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Speaker 1: It happened to be that exact moment that I saw

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Speaker 1: a video of Alice Johnson pop up on my feed

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Speaker 1: that someone that I followed retweeted, and I just my

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Speaker 1: heart broke for her and her story just I connected

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Speaker 1: with it. For whatever reason, I just felt like it

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Speaker 1: was so wrong and that if I could do anything,

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Speaker 1: then I wanted to try. I truthfully didn't know I

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Speaker 1: was going to get that far.

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Speaker 4: I was about to ask you that, like, what did

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Speaker 4: I mean, because it's such a crazy thing, like the

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Speaker 4: idea that you like, getting someone out of prison is

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Speaker 4: you know, I mean, like it's like trying to catch

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Speaker 4: lightning in a bowl. Right, Yeah, you were like, I

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Speaker 4: got you just had to do it, and I had

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Speaker 4: that feel to do it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it was just a feeling that I

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Speaker 1: was like, I have to do it. And so you know,

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Speaker 1: she's she's a woman. I figured Evanka would totally understand

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Speaker 1: and feel the same thing that I felt. So my

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Speaker 1: first call was to Evanka, Well.

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Speaker 4: Wait a minut. Let's go back a second, Kim, because

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Speaker 4: can you explain the circumstances of this case, because it

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Speaker 4: is maddening when you know what happened to Alice, But

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Speaker 4: at the same time, it's really scarily typical. I mean,

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Speaker 4: she is not a unique case, but you know.

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Speaker 1: She wasly about three thousand alices.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, there's so many people that are in her situation.

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Speaker 1: It's just in her situation. So yeah, so she was

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Speaker 1: a part of a drug conspiracy. She had a great job,

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Speaker 1: worked at FedEx for ten years, lost her job, had

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Speaker 1: five kids, her youngest son died, had to make money,

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Speaker 1: had to feed her kids. Somebody told her, Hey, if

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Speaker 1: you're the phone mule, and if you answer the phone

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Speaker 1: and be that you know connection, you can make one

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars every time you answered the phone. So she

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Speaker 1: didn't do it often, but did it enough. She didn't

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Speaker 1: know who the people were, she didn't know the quantities,

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Speaker 1: she wasn't never touched the drugs.

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Speaker 4: What the state was this Tennessee, right, So, and there's

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Speaker 4: a I have a lot of experience in Tennessee. But

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Speaker 4: so let's just think about this because there's almost an

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Speaker 4: element of My favorite book I've ever read was Lem

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Speaker 4: As a Rob and it's sort of informed and I

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Speaker 4: think influenced me to get started on this life, this

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Speaker 4: mission of criminal justice reform, because there's an element of that.

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Speaker 4: Right here. You have a mom who had a choice,

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Speaker 4: like she was having trouble feeding her family, and that's

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Speaker 4: so powerful, right, I mean, there's probably nothing more powerful

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Speaker 4: than a mother's love. And I'm not excusing her behavior

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Speaker 4: because it was technically illegal, but let's put ourselves in

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Speaker 4: her shoes for a second. Right, there's an interesting choice.

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Speaker 4: So you're faced with she wasn't a career criminal.

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Speaker 1: Never had any nothing in her history of anything criminal.

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Speaker 1: Her whole family, no one had a criminal record, really

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Speaker 1: good support system, really good team, made some bad choices

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Speaker 1: everyone else. Because it was this big conspiracy. Everyone got caught,

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Speaker 1: everyone got in trouble. Everyone I think pled guilty in

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Speaker 1: and out of jail. She I don't know what their

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Speaker 1: exact sentences were, but she pled not guilty, went to

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Speaker 1: trial because she was like I just I was just

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Speaker 1: answering the phones. I didn't even touch the drugs, see

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Speaker 1: the drugs, know the quantity. She knew it was drugs,

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Speaker 1: but didn't ask any questions. And she got life in

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Speaker 1: prison without the possibility of parole. And it was so crazy.

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Speaker 4: And that's an amazing thing too. And there's so many

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Speaker 4: interesting parallels right in the way that you and I

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Speaker 4: got started on this. And I want to go back

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Speaker 4: for a second. We'll come back to Alice. But you

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Speaker 4: wouldn't necessarily know this, but both of us have famous

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Speaker 4: fathers who were lawyers. Both of us did some crazy

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Speaker 4: stuff when we were kids that we know, and I've

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Speaker 4: seen you talk about this, which is why I'm referencing it.

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Speaker 4: Both of us are aware that we could have gotten

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Speaker 4: in real trouble for the things that we did when

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Speaker 4: we were kids, but we weren't in that situation, right,

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Speaker 4: and we were able to know we had good guardian

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Speaker 4: angels or whatever it was, right, So there's, you know,

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Speaker 4: there's a little bit of a there but for the

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Speaker 4: grace of God go I right type of situation when

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Speaker 4: you see somebody like Alice. And both of us got

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Speaker 4: involved in this because of cases that we learned about

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Speaker 4: in the media. Because the first time I got involved

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Speaker 4: in a case was a guy I read about in

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Speaker 4: the newspaper. And this is where the media can play

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Speaker 4: such an important role. Who was serving fifteen years to

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Speaker 4: life for a non violent first offense cocaine possession charge.

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Speaker 4: And once again, that's fifteen years life for a nonviolent

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Speaker 4: first offense cocaine possession charge, right, And so I ended

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Speaker 4: up a long story short sitting in the courtroom holding

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Speaker 4: his mother's hand when we got the judge to reverse

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Speaker 4: the charges or to reduce the charges, I should say,

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Speaker 4: And he was freed after nine years of amandatory fifteen

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Speaker 4: but in her case, it's so important what you're saying

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Speaker 4: and what you're doing with Alice, and it's so important

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Speaker 4: that she's such a wonderful spokesperson because of the fact

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Speaker 4: that people need to understand that in these cases, the

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Speaker 4: least culpable person, which in this case was her, ends

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Speaker 4: up with the longest sentence. Why because a they don't

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Speaker 4: have information to trade. They probably went to her and said, Alice,

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Speaker 4: tell us who the kingpin is. She had no way

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Speaker 4: of knowing, no idea. And they also went to her

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Speaker 4: and said, plead guilty. Now then she's sitting there going, well,

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Speaker 4: wait a minute, I plead guilty. They probably offer her

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Speaker 4: ten years or something, right, and who's wants to make

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Speaker 4: that choice. You're sitting there going, but I just answered

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Speaker 4: the phone and I have a family to take care

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Speaker 4: of it whatever, and so you please, and then they

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Speaker 4: throw the book at you. And that's exactly what happened.

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Speaker 1: So this is a case that I've looked at from

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Speaker 1: like a case about Cinoya Brown, Like so many people

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Speaker 1: that I have looked at that have gotten life, It's

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Speaker 1: all been in Tennessee. Everything that I've gravitated towards has all.

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Speaker 4: Been in Tennessee and the story I was just telling

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Speaker 4: you about Nora Jackson, my you know who's become family

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Speaker 4: to me in a very real way. That was a

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Speaker 4: Tennessee case. She was actually in the same prison with

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Speaker 4: Cintoya for a period of time. Wow. So yeah, Tennessee is,

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Speaker 4: but it's not the worst state, believe it or not. Really.

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Speaker 4: Oklahoma recently passed Louisiana as the state that incarcerates the

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Speaker 4: highest number of people per capita. And let's talk about

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Speaker 4: that for a second game. As we were talking in

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Speaker 4: the studio earlier, right, America incarcerates five times as many

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Speaker 4: people per capita as the rest of the Western world.

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Speaker 4: So that means we have twenty five percent of the

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Speaker 4: world's prison population, but we only have four point four

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Speaker 4: percent of the world's population. So that can only mean

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Speaker 4: one of two things. Either Americans are the most evil

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Speaker 4: people in the world or we're doing something really wrong

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Speaker 4: because these other countries don't have problems with crime rates

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Speaker 4: or anything else. It's it's just not a deterrent. It's

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Speaker 4: it's just they have a more humane policy towards their

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Speaker 4: own people, and we are the incarceration nation. And then

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Speaker 4: the numbers get even worse when you get inside of them.

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Speaker 4: And now that you've had this experience, I know, we

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Speaker 4: went to a woman's prison and spent and then you

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Speaker 4: didn't go there and wave and leave. It wasn't a

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Speaker 4: photo op, right, you were there.

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Speaker 1: I know it for a few hours.

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Speaker 4: I know I heard.

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Speaker 1: The story, so it was it was fascinating. Honestly, I

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Speaker 1: after Alice, I thought to myself, well, if someone murdered someone,

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Speaker 1: would I fight hard to get them out? Thinking that,

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Speaker 1: you know, to myself and having those conversations with my

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Speaker 1: family members and my husband and right violent versus non

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Speaker 1: violentce Yeah, and I thought, you know what, probably not

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Speaker 1: at first first thought. After going there and hearing these

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Speaker 1: women's stories, I was like, you know what, I absolutely would.

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Speaker 1: And I know, you know to some people that might

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Speaker 1: that might sound crazy, but hearing the circumstances that these

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Speaker 1: women have been in that have led them to the

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Speaker 1: journey of where they ended up or so many people

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Speaker 1: just self defense and being getting life and it was

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Speaker 1: so like heartbreaking. I never thought, you know, and I'm

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Speaker 1: so glad I went in. I can't wait to go back.

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Speaker 4: Wow, what a thing that is to say. Let's just

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Speaker 4: think about that for a second. Yeah, here's Kim Kardashian going,

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Speaker 4: I can't wait, and you say I can't wait to go,

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Speaker 4: And if most people feel that and then go to

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Speaker 4: Mikonos to I guess the audience, let's guess the top

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Speaker 4: ten guesses win whatever. Right, prison wouldn't be most people's

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Speaker 4: guests of where you would want to go. You can

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Speaker 4: go anywhere. Yeah, you can be anywhere. You're Kim Kardashian.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but I thought, I mean, I text my whole

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Speaker 1: family on my way saying, you know, hey, guys, I

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Speaker 1: won't have my phone for a few hours, so you know,

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Speaker 1: the kids, if anything, if anyone needs anything, you know,

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Speaker 1: just whatever, I'll be back in a few hours. And

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Speaker 1: they were like, well, where are you going? And I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh, I'm going into prison. And they were like,

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Speaker 1: what where are you going? And I was like, I'm

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Speaker 1: so sorry. I forgot to tell you guys. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to check it out. I want to

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Speaker 1: hear these women's stories and I just I'm just going,

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Speaker 1: you know. And they were, you know, fascinated, and Chloe

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Speaker 1: had said, well, I wish you told me. I would

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Speaker 1: have gone with you. And my mom is traveling and

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Speaker 1: she was like, you have to fill me in and

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Speaker 1: tell me everything, And it was just it was a

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Speaker 1: moment when I walked in. I mean to see when

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Speaker 1: I would walk down the halls and the women were

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Speaker 1: banging on the windows and sticking their heads out of

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Speaker 1: the windows, like the place was practically shaking, and everyone

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Speaker 1: was screaming, Kim's here, Kim Kardashian's here, are you going

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Speaker 1: to get us out? Get us out? You know, because

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Speaker 1: after Alice and it was it was a crazy, crazy experience,

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Speaker 1: but so it so normalized it for me just sitting

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Speaker 1: and talking to these women that I totally understood.

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Speaker 4: Them, you know, Kim. Brian Stevenson, who's a hero, a

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Speaker 4: great hero of mine, has a saying he says, and

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Speaker 4: he said this so powerfully in his Ted talk, which

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Speaker 4: I recommend everybody watch. He said, I believe everyone's better

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Speaker 4: than the worst thing they've ever done. Now, I'm not

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Speaker 4: somebody who believes we should just open the doors and

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Speaker 4: everybody should go free. We're a nation of laws. I

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Speaker 4: think we have to enforce laws, but we have to

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Speaker 4: make the laws humane, we have to make them sensible,

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Speaker 4: and we have to reverse this mass incarceration. We had

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Speaker 4: three hundred thousand people in prison thirty something years ago.

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Speaker 4: Now we have two point two million, like we have.

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Speaker 4: And inside the number right you have and you touched

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Speaker 4: on this, right, there's so many women in prison. We

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Speaker 4: have twenty five percent of the world's prison population. We

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Speaker 4: have thirty three percent of the world's female prison population.

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Speaker 4: And going back to Oklahoma, they have double that per capita.

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Speaker 4: Right have they over indexed the rest of the country

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Speaker 4: by double in Oklahoma? And your head's gonna explode when

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Speaker 4: I tell you this, right in Oklahoma, And we're working

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Speaker 4: on this now, trying to make a big change. But

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Speaker 4: in Oklahoma, if you're pregnant and the baby daddy beats

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Speaker 4: you up, whether it's a boyfriend, husband, lover, whatever it is,

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Speaker 4: you are guilty of endangering the welfare of a child

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Speaker 4: and you can go to prison for life.

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Speaker 1: So it's crazy for being beat up.

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Speaker 4: And you don't have to have instigated it, you don't

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Speaker 4: have to do it. You could be stuck in a room,

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Speaker 4: it doesn't matter. Like that's how crazy the laws are.

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Speaker 4: And then there's all these women who were in prison

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Speaker 4: because they were like Alice Johnson, they were the low

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Speaker 4: level person on the team in some sort of quote

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Speaker 4: unquote conspiracy. Right. These are not big drug dealers or kingpins.

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Speaker 4: These are girlfriends who answered the phone like she did,

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Speaker 4: or who were in the car when their boyfriend, their

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Speaker 4: de other boyfriend got pulled over, like Kembus Smith, who

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Speaker 4: I got President Clinton to grant clemency to all those

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Speaker 4: years ago, who.

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Speaker 1: Just showed it was a woman that was not even

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Speaker 1: in the same county when a murder happened and the

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Speaker 1: boyfriend blamed it on her. And I don't know her

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Speaker 1: exact story, but she got life because he probably rotted

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Speaker 1: her out and it was you know, there was no

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Speaker 1: physical connection to her being there, and she was pregnant

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Speaker 1: and had the baby in prisons, never seen her baby

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Speaker 1: was thirty years ago. She wasn't even there the same county, right,

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Speaker 1: heard life.

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Speaker 4: I've heard those stories before too, and it's it's so

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Speaker 4: strange to me why we treat our women this way.

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Speaker 4: And there's there's I mean, we could talk about this

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Speaker 4: literally for days. Yeah, there's there's shaken baby syndrome, right,

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Speaker 4: which is there's hundreds and hundreds of people, maybe thousands,

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Speaker 4: in prison for shaking. Maybe a lot of them are

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Speaker 4: women takers they're even babysitters whatever. And these babies died

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Speaker 4: of natural causes. It's crib death. There's no such thing

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Speaker 4: as shaking baby syndrome. It's a made up thing. You

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Speaker 4: cannot shake a baby, and almost every top neurologist agrees

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Speaker 4: on this. You can't shake a baby hard enough to

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Speaker 4: kill it, to rattle its brain without breaking its neck.

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Speaker 4: And now these babies have broken necks. Think about it.

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Speaker 4: It's ridiculous. Your brain's not that soft. I mean, babies,

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Speaker 4: you know they You ever thought about that? It's crazy, right.

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Speaker 4: So there's a whole group of women who people say, well,

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Speaker 4: she's a murderer. No, actually, she's a woman who lost

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Speaker 4: her child and now she's in prison for life because

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Speaker 4: some overzealous prosecutor or some other thing went wrong in

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Speaker 4: the system, and now they're stuck in there forever. And

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Speaker 4: it's like, and Michelle Murphy, who's who I'm extremely connected to,

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Speaker 4: I call her my knee. She calls me uncle. It's

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Speaker 4: an Oklahoma case who was convicted of She's been on

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Speaker 4: my podcast, on the same podcast that you are sitting

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Speaker 4: here like you are now. And we were on the

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Speaker 4: Doctors together and Michelle was convicted of murdering her fifteen

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Speaker 4: week old baby, and she was a gree shesly framed.

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Speaker 4: So she served twenty years of a life sentence, and

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Speaker 4: she before her conviction was overturned with prejudice, which is

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Speaker 4: like the strongest that a court can say this was wrong.

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Speaker 4: And the judge after she was exonerated said that in

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Speaker 4: his four decades on the bench it was the worst

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Speaker 4: miscarriage of justice he'd ever seen. So, you know, there's

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Speaker 4: a huge number of people, and then they're even the ones,

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Speaker 4: like you said, who were self defense cases right.

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Speaker 1: Where most of what I said, like I understand, I

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Speaker 1: obviously don't understand the act of you know, killing someone,

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Speaker 1: but the act of if you are getting abused and

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Speaker 1: you have children and you're protecting them and you fight

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Speaker 1: back and the person dies and you have life because

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Speaker 1: you've been beaten for so many years. And I mean

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Speaker 1: so many of these cases that of these women that

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Speaker 1: were sharing their stories with me, just I felt them

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Speaker 1: and that just you know, I feel like even just

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Speaker 1: hearing about all the programs in prison and really how

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Speaker 1: to get people back on their feet for when they

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Speaker 1: get out, there's so many flaws. Like I was like overwhelmed,

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Speaker 1: leaving thinking like, well, I don't even know where to start,

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Speaker 1: Like there's so much wrong with the system. I don't

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Speaker 1: even know where to start.

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Speaker 4: But you did start, and you are starting, and you're

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Speaker 4: here now, and that is making a huge difference, just

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Speaker 4: the fact that you're here and that you're able to

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Speaker 4: use your voice.

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Speaker 1: I'm learning. That's why I wanted to go, because I

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Speaker 1: was like, I don't have any connection to prison. I've

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Speaker 1: never been to prison. I don't. I want to go,

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Speaker 1: and I want to see what it's like, and I

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Speaker 1: want to hear from people that are living it, what

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Speaker 1: their experience is like and what could change what you know,

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Speaker 1: just I'm learning. I'm learning as I go.

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Speaker 4: I think it's so important, you know, to highlight the

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Speaker 4: idea that you know, both of us got involved in

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Speaker 4: this stuff because of stories you heard about it on

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Speaker 4: social media. I heard about it in old media. Right,

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Speaker 4: it was just a newspaper article. Right, I was holding

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Speaker 4: into my hands. Right. Some people are like, wait, what's that?

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Speaker 4: But you know, it's so important. If you know someone

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Speaker 4: who was wrongfully convicted or who is serving an unjust sentence,

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Speaker 4: you must talk about it. You must call reporters you

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Speaker 4: must reach out to whoever you can think of, because

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Speaker 4: you never know. Talk about it to your friends and

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Speaker 4: a diner, there might be someone at the next table

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Speaker 4: who knows someone who knows someone. The world is actually

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Speaker 4: small that way, and everybody has the ability to make

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Speaker 4: a difference, and you know, and it needs to be done.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's so easy for me to empathize with

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Speaker 4: the people who are serving these sentences and to just

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Speaker 4: sit there and go I can't. I literally can't think

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Speaker 4: of anything worse.

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Speaker 1: Than to So it's the worst when I mean, yesterday

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Speaker 1: I had a call with a gentleman that's in prison

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Speaker 1: for a drug case. Got life. It's so unfair. He's

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Speaker 1: thirty years old, he's been in for almost ten years.

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Speaker 1: It was a marijuana case, right, yeah, yeah, he had

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Speaker 1: his prior conviction to get him to his three strikes

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Speaker 1: was marijuana and then marijuana with less than half a

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Speaker 1: gram of cocaine possession.

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Speaker 4: Half a gram. That's like a sweetened low package for

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Speaker 4: people who aren't familiar. That's like, that's literally like how

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Speaker 4: much is in a Sweden love like less maybe a

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Speaker 4: little less than that?

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Speaker 1: Got life. And I was on the phone with the

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Speaker 1: judge that sentenced him to life, who resigned because he

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Speaker 1: had never been on the side of having to do

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Speaker 1: something so unfair, and now he is fighting with us

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Speaker 1: to get him out. And it's just, I mean, when

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Speaker 1: you see it, at least it gave me like such

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Speaker 1: hope that the jet like you think, it was a

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Speaker 1: mandatory sentence that he had to deliver, and he knew

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Speaker 1: it was so wrong, and he was like, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to make this right. I'm going to step down and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to help to fight to get him out.

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Speaker 1: And I spoke to him on the phone from prison

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Speaker 1: and it was, you know, just a really crazy. It's

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Speaker 1: just there's so many people like.

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Speaker 4: Him, and it's so important what you're saying, and because

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Speaker 4: of the fact that these mandatory sentencing laws and I

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Speaker 4: got involved. The first organization I ever got involved was

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Speaker 4: Families Against Mandatory Minimums. After I got that first guy,

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Speaker 4: Stephen Lennon out, I was hooked, like you're hooked now,

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Speaker 4: and I love seeing it in you because you're young

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Speaker 4: enough to be my own daughter, and so it's so

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Speaker 4: exciting to see another generation. And it's this movement is

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Speaker 4: growing so fast and we're going to turn it upside down.

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Speaker 4: We're going to there's no stopping. And so the first

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Speaker 4: thing I did, after having that cathartic experience of sitting

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Speaker 4: there holding missus Lennon's hand as her son was as

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Speaker 4: a judge, you know, slammed the gavel down and ruled

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Speaker 4: that she was going to be free, he was to

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Speaker 4: be freed. I did some research and I found out

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Speaker 4: about this organization called Families Against Mandatory Minimums, and they

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Speaker 4: are a wonderful organization that has done fantastic things. I've

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Speaker 4: been on their board now for twenty five years, so

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Speaker 4: I'm like a true believer. But they've been we've been

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Speaker 4: reversing these mandatory sentencing laws state by state, federally as

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Speaker 4: you know, as much as we can, as many as

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Speaker 4: we can, and we're never going to stop until there's fairness.

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Speaker 4: And it's interesting because, you know, it really struck home

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Speaker 4: to me what you said about this judge saying I

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Speaker 4: couldn't believe I had to send like that doesn't make

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Speaker 4: any you and judge, And so, you know, it's interesting

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Speaker 4: because the history of mandatory sensing laws is that originally

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Speaker 4: they were minor saying as they were passed because Congress thought, well,

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Speaker 4: it's not right that in some cases a different judge

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Speaker 4: for the same crime might send somebody more harshly or

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Speaker 4: or leniently. And so they were trying to make it,

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Speaker 4: you know, more of an even playing field. But then

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Speaker 4: they just started going, well, the tough on crime hera,

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Speaker 4: let's just make tougher and tougher senses, show how tough

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Speaker 4: we are on crime. They started passing mandatory sentences for everything,

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Speaker 4: and they made them tougher and tough for without any

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Speaker 4: regard for what they were doing to society. And so

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Speaker 4: you end up with a situation where in two thousand

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Speaker 4: I went to the Senate and I did a presentation

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Speaker 4: for the Democratic Policy Committee in the Senate. Twenty four

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Speaker 4: senators there, and I went. One of the people I

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Speaker 4: went with was I went with Amy Fofolo, was a

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Speaker 4: woman who I convinced President Clinton to Grand cromeincy too.

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Speaker 4: And Julie Stewart, who runs Families Against Mandatory Men, was

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Speaker 4: a founder of Family Against Panetry. Minis and federal Judge

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Speaker 4: Castillo came with us and he was the vice chair

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Speaker 4: of the US Sentencing Commission. Big powerful guy, a guy

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Speaker 4: you really think like, looks an act like you'd cast

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Speaker 4: him as a judge. And he said, you guys confirmed

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Speaker 4: me unanimously to do the most difficult job that anyone

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Speaker 4: can have, which is to sentence another human being to prison,

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Speaker 4: and then you took away my ability to do it.

431
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 4: He goes, I just sit there and look at a chart,

432
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 4: and then I just have to send people to these

433
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 4: crazy sentences, regardless of I think it exists.

434
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: Guess what it is. You see, if I got a

435
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 1: list of some people that I was going to meet

436
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 1: with and I just read their sentences and would have

437
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 1: thought that there's not a chance, I, you know, would

438
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:24,200
Speaker 1: ever think that this in like, not even knowing their circumstances.

439
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 1: Then you come and you meet these people. What's on

440
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: paper and what's in person is so different, and that

441
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 1: is the hard part is just I mean, you obviously

442
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: can't get to know everyone and go around to every

443
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,719
Speaker 1: prison and meet people and help everyone. I mean, but like,

444
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: the laws really just have to change. And I do

445
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,640
Speaker 1: know that. I do talk to the White House often

446
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 1: on this subject with Jared Kushner, and he is really

447
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: passionate about changing some of these laws and getting a

448
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: lot of bills passed and hopefully some things will get past.

449
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm hopeful.

450
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 4: Well, I think there's a lot of movement in the States,

451
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 4: and I was going to say, I think that if

452
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 4: we could get you involved in isolated cases with state laws, no.

453
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 4: Ninety percent of people in prison in America and state prisons. Yeah, right,

454
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 4: So the you know, the federal it's going to move

455
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 4: much slower in the federal level for the time being.

456
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,640
Speaker 4: And it's very important to work on the micro and

457
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 4: the macro. Right the micro is is the Alice Johnsons

458
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 4: of the world, the Stephen Lennon's of the world, the

459
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 4: Lenny Singleton who I was had the thrilling experience of

460
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 4: walking out of prison in Virginia a few weeks ago.

461
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 4: But the macro is changing these laws so it doesn't

462
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,439
Speaker 4: happen to other people. Because if you're listening out there

463
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 4: and you don't think it can happen to you, it

464
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 4: can happen to you. And by the way, be aware,

465
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 4: like if you're riding in a car and someone else

466
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 4: has drugs and you get pulled over and nobody takes

467
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 4: responsibility for it, it belongs to everybody. If it's in

468
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 4: the glove compartment or the trunk or under the seat.

469
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,959
Speaker 4: Absolutely you can be just so you can get caught up.

470
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 4: If you think this can't happen to you, it can happen.

471
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: I was when I was talking to Chris Young, who's

472
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: who's in prison. He has sickle selenemia, so he's had

473
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: to have a few surgeries, so he's been in a

474
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: medical facility for a few years and he goes back

475
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: into the maximum security prison where lifers have to go,

476
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:31,959
Speaker 1: and he's so like he's had a perfect record, and

477
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 1: he was saying, like, I can stay out of trouble

478
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: in here, but going in there, I'm you know, there's stabbings,

479
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: there's this, and if you're near that, you can get

480
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: in trouble so easily. And I you know, he was

481
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: just didn't want to get caught up in a situation

482
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: that had nothing to do with him, but could very

483
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: much have by you know, the close proximity have so

484
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: much to do with him. And it's just, you know,

485
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: it's scary when you, you know, have a minor drug charge,

486
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: but then you get life and you're stuck in this

487
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 1: crazy maximum security prison with murderers and people that you know,

488
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: just it's a completely different environment than the environment that

489
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: he's so used to.

490
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 4: Life in prison for a non violent offense. There's no

491
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 4: other country that does that. I mean, it's so nuts

492
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 4: the way we treat our own people, you know. And

493
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 4: I talked to politicians and I'll be like, well, you know,

494
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 4: if another country treated our people the way we do,

495
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 4: we'd invade. We'd be like, you're not getting away with that.

496
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 4: You can't do that to our citizens, are you nuts?

497
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,719
Speaker 4: Put him in these gulags, these violent places where they

498
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 4: that breed disease, and you know, abuse, all kinds of abuse, physical, sexual,

499
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 4: where there's stabbings and you you're to basically just try

500
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 4: to stay alive. And some of them are privatized. Only

501
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 4: even get me started on that. No other country would

502
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 4: do this, but we do it to our own citizens,

503
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 4: who are just regular people until one day they're caught

504
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 4: up and the next thing you know, there they are,

505
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 4: and it's like, uh, you know, people just sort of

506
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 4: forget about them. We can't forget about them. Kim Let

507
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 4: me ask you something, So, can you describe that feeling

508
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 4: like when you found out that Alice was going to

509
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 4: go home and you knew that you had a lot

510
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 4: to do with it, right that you were really the

511
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 4: driving force behind giving this woman, this lovely woman by

512
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: all accounts of everything I've heard about her her life back, Like,

513
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 4: I mean, that's not exaggeration. She was going to die

514
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 4: in prison? What was that? How'd you find out about it?

515
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 4: At number one? Where were you? What were you doing?

516
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 4: Was it hot? Was it cold? What were you sitting down?

517
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 4: Did you scream? And how did it feel? Can you

518
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:42,879
Speaker 4: explain that?

519
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: Yeah? I was on a photo shoot with Stephen Klein

520
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 1: and it was a very racy photo shoot.

521
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 4: This perfect.

522
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 1: I'm like practically naked and my phone rings, and I

523
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 1: knew that I should be. I mean, it would been

524
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 1: this really long roller coaster of is this going to happen?

525
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: Is it not going to happen? You know, after I'd

526
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 1: gone to the White House, White House.

527
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 4: So you let's just say that.

528
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 1: Yes, and then get a phone. My phone rings and

529
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,119
Speaker 1: it says unknown, and so I'm like, give me a

530
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,320
Speaker 1: you know, get me a robe hold on, stop, you know,

531
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 1: And I run over and I answer the phone and

532
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 1: it is the President and he let me know himself

533
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 1: that he was going to release Alice, and he was

534
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: signing the paper right then and there, and I just

535
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: was like in shock. I was just so happy cry.

536
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: I didn't cry until I called Alice to tell her myself.

537
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 4: And so you got the news to her.

538
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: Yes, I got to break the news to her, and

539
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,440
Speaker 1: it was just it was crazy because so I spoke,

540
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: you know to the president. He let me know that

541
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: that was what was going to happen, and he was

542
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: going to sign the papers right then and there and

543
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: she could be released that day. And you know, I

544
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: didn't know, does it happen right away? Is there a process?

545
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: Is it?

546
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: You know, what is it? So he was going to

547
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: let her go, you know, he told me she can

548
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: leave today. So I called the attorneys. A woman named

549
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: Brittany was really heading it from Buried Alive the organization

550
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: Buried Alive. So her and I have been in contact

551
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: of how you know, with Chris Young, who I'm you know,

552
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 1: working with now and all these other people. She really

553
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 1: brings me people that you know, she really was backing

554
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: Alice for you know, years and helping Alice. So Brittany,

555
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: Brittany Barnett.

556
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 4: And what's the organization as I want.

557
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: To be Buried Alive? Yeah, Buried Alive. So she's been

558
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 1: amazing and so so great and has brought me people

559
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: that she thinks that I would really connect with, like Chris,

560
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: and she's been great to work with. So she I

561
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: call my attorney, Sean, who connects me with Brittany, and

562
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: they call Alice, and so Alice says that she got,

563
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 1: you know, on the loud speaker, like Alice, come to

564
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,239
Speaker 1: hear you know, phone call. So she gets on the

565
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: phone and she assumes that it's a regular attorney's call.

566
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: I mean, she obviously knows that I went to the

567
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: White House and we're just waiting, and I filled her

568
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: in right after I was done with a White House

569
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: on how the conversation went. And I said to her,

570
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: you know, it couldn't have gone any better. I know,

571
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: I gave it my all. I feel like we gave

572
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 1: an amazing pitch and I feel like the President heard

573
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: us and did feel like she had spent her time

574
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: and I felt that, and so I felt really confident.

575
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: And I'm the type of person where like I don't

576
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: like to get excited. I don't overspeak until something is

577
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: done and ready and you know, finished, So I didn't

578
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: want to get her too excited, but I knew it

579
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: went well. So then I didn't know what happened this quick,

580
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: and because it had been about six months of me

581
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 1: talking to Jared Kushner and getting this all happening. It

582
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: wasn't a quick overnight thing. It wasn't like Kim called,

583
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: she got a meeting, this happened.

584
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 4: It did not happen like that.

585
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: It was a long time getting her file together and

586
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: a lot of fighting for her. So Alice gets on

587
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: the phone and I thought that the attorneys had told

588
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: her already because I was just jumping in the call

589
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 1: and I thought we were just going to have the celebrate,

590
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: celebratory call. I had no idea. She didn't know. So

591
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 1: she wasn't like screaming. She wasn't and I know her,

592
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: I feel like she'd cry and be screaming and thanking me.

593
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: And she just was kind of like, Hey, what's going on?

594
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: What's up? And I was like, oh, it's Kim. I'm

595
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: on the phone. And she was like, hey, how are you?

596
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 1: And then I said, oh, wait, you don't know, because

597
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: I was so shocked that she was so calm, and

598
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: she said no, no, what And I said, Alice, You're

599
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: going home. And the screams and the cries and that's

600
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: when I cried. It was like three minutes on the

601
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,719
Speaker 1: phone of like tears, no one can speak. And then

602
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: finally she was like, Okay, well what do I do?

603
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 4: Where do I go?

604
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 1: Like, and I was like the attorneys jumped in to

605
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: tell her the protocol. But yeah, it was just it

606
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: was such a cool thing, such a cool moment. I

607
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: was like, Okay, this feeling. If I used my resources

608
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: to make this happen for her, what else can we do?

609
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 4: Was that one of the happiest moments of your life?

610
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 1: It really was, It really really was. Meeting her was

611
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: another one. Just seeing her family, seeing because you can

612
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: hear about it, and like I was talking about on

613
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: paper and in person. When I saw the video of Alice,

614
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 1: that's what changed me. If I were to just hear

615
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: the story, I would definitely feel something. But when I

616
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: heard her talk, saw her eyes, felt her soul and

617
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: what her family was missing out on, and her missing

618
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: out on her grandbabies and her parents dying and all

619
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: this stuff, yeah, her great grandchildren, I felt like a connection, Like, well,

620
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 1: I have all you know, I have a big family,

621
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: and I would be devastated if something like that happened

622
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: in my family. So meeting her family and seeing that

623
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: all come to life, and like what you were saying

624
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 1: in the studio earlier, she didn't even know how have

625
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: a cell phone before seeing her figure out an iPhone

626
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: and how to you know what an emoji was, and

627
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: like the simple things that was really crazy to just

628
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,880
Speaker 1: she just wanted to do the simplest things.

629
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 4: So you know, it's interesting too. It's another parallel because

630
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 4: many years ago, in two thousand, I was fortunate to

631
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 4: get to have dinner with President Clinton in a group,

632
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 4: but I was at his table and I got him

633
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 4: to talk to me about the drug laws, and you know,

634
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 4: he admitted they were wrong, and he said, you know,

635
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 4: I think if someone breaks the law, they should they

636
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 4: should go to jail, but they shouldn't spend the best

637
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 4: years of their life there for a non violent fence.

638
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 4: And I was like, okay, so we agree on that.

639
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 4: And I gave him a letter from a woman who

640
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 4: he had He had granted a few clemencies up to

641
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 4: that point, and I gave him a letter from one

642
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 4: of the women he had granted clemency too, who was

643
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 4: one of those ones, like a girlfriend of a drug

644
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 4: dealer and was an Arkansas case and he read it

645
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 4: and I said to him, mister President, what you did

646
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 4: for these five people was heroic, wonderful, but I know

647
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 4: of hundreds of other cases just as bad as those.

648
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 4: And he said, in front of the whole table, he said,

649
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 4: you get them to me and I'll sign them. And

650
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 4: I was like, and well then I was like, wait

651
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 4: what hold on? Okay, I said, okay, let me just

652
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 4: get my wits about me. Right. The whole table was like,

653
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 4: look like, what did you just say? And so I said, well,

654
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 4: mister President, when you leave here tonight, you're I never

655
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:57,800
Speaker 4: met him before. I was like, you're not going to

656
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,399
Speaker 4: be the easiest guy for me to get on the phone,

657
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 4: like how do you reckon? And I do that? And

658
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 4: he told me the whole proper channels to go through

659
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 4: the Chief Council, the justice part of the whole thing, right,

660
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,280
Speaker 4: And so then I worked with families against mandatory minimums

661
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 4: and we found cases that fit the criteria that he

662
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 4: wanted to see nonviolent first defenders serving these crazy sentences.

663
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,879
Speaker 4: And you just brought this memory back from me. So

664
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 4: thank you for that, because and it took I had

665
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 4: to push a lot even from that point, like it wasn't.

666
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 4: It wasn't like the next day, Hey, everything's great, you know,

667
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 4: but you know, perseverance is an important part of my story.

668
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 4: And ultimately that was only if that was only I

669
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 4: think that was September of his last year in office,

670
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 4: only had till January. And I think that my dad

671
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 4: helped me with that. Funny enough, because we ended up

672
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 4: putting together seventeen cases. Ultimately more we found more. I

673
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 4: think it was a total twenty three that we ended

674
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 4: up asking for. These were all families against manatory minimums cases,

675
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 4: and he granted two. In December, and I was with

676
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 4: my dad, the famous lawyer dad of mine, who really

677
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 4: put this justice, this this sense of fairness and ethics

678
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 4: and morality into me, and who you know, was my

679
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 4: hero growing up and he's not around anymore. But I said,

680
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 4: I happen to be having lunch with him on his birthday,

681
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 4: which was December twentieth. I said, Dad, this is ridiculous.

682
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 4: He told me he was going he only gave me two.

683
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 4: And my dad helped me at that point forward. He said,

684
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 4: I'm going to I have an idea how to help,

685
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 4: and he got involved and you know, connected me with

686
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 4: someone else who you know, connected me with the one

687
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 4: and you know it's just like you, like you, you

688
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 4: just have to keep pushing. And ultimately President Clim granted

689
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 4: clemency to seventeen of those people, and you know, many

690
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 4: of them have gone on to achieve higher degrees of learning.

691
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 4: Peter Ninmyer got a master's degree from like Kansas State.

692
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 4: Kenbus Smith is now an attorney in Atlanta. She's a

693
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 4: public defender, I believe, got a degree from Loddigrief in

694
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 4: University of Michigan. These are all people who just needed

695
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 4: a second chance, you know, and my and I hope

696
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 4: we can really shift the public consciousness on this together, Kim,

697
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 4: because these people are not dangerous. These are people who

698
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 4: just want a chance, and they'll work harder. And if

699
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 4: you're an employer, you're somebody has a business out there.

700
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 4: Giving somebody like them a chance when they get out

701
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 4: is the best decision you're going to make, because they

702
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 4: will work harder and do better because they're so great now.

703
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: They do not want to go back.

704
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 4: They don't want to go back. They've learned. They didn't

705
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 4: need these long sentences to learn. They want to have

706
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 4: a life and have a chance. And I have not.

707
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 4: I've been knock Wood. I've been very fortunate that of

708
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:36,799
Speaker 4: all the people, all the clemency cases I've worked on,

709
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,399
Speaker 4: state and federal, none of them have reoffended. Not all

710
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 4: of them, and not all of them are doing fantastic,

711
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,600
Speaker 4: you know, I mean it doesn't. It's still very challenging

712
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 4: on the outside. It's what I call the second punishment, right,

713
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 4: the stigma that's associated with you know, formerly incarcerated people,

714
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 4: system affected people. But so many of them are doing

715
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 4: wonderful things, raising families. You know. Stephen Lennon the first guy,

716
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 4: you know, he ended up having a family call. Oh

717
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 4: I think so Stephen Lennin six months after he got out,

718
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 4: I said this. I was doing a ted X talk

719
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 4: from inside a maximum security prison in Uganda in March,

720
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 4: and I told this story, So Stephen got out, And

721
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 4: that one took about six months as well, from the

722
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 4: time I first read the story in the newspaper, and

723
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 4: five months later I got a letter in the mail

724
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,320
Speaker 4: from a woman whose name I didn't recognize in Cincinnati, Ohio.

725
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 4: So I was like, I think her name is Joeyanne Paris.

726
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 4: I don't know anyway, So I opened the letter and

727
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 4: it started off, dear Jason, you don't know me, but

728
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 4: you got me pregnant. And that's what I said. I

729
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 4: was like, oh, wait what, I'm starting to think my

730
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:41,759
Speaker 4: mind's racing. Did I go to Cincinnati? Oh my god, right, No, man,

731
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 4: I don't wants to hear those words. I was like, wait,

732
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 4: what And so I read on and it says, just

733
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 4: so you know, my brother Stephen Lennon, and for the

734
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 4: last five years, my husband and I've been trying to conceive,

735
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 4: and the doctor told me that the stress of my

736
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 4: brother's incarceration was preventing us from getting pregnant. And I'm

737
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 4: pregnant now, just all you want to know. And I

738
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 4: was like, oh man, this is just the gift that

739
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 4: just keeps on giving. So it is, you know, it's

740
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 4: it's such a joy. I saw it in the videos

741
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 4: and why I really wanted to have you on the

742
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 4: show was because I saw, you know, I saw an

743
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 4: interview did with Mike, and I read, you know, various

744
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 4: stories about your involvement and your your you know, and

745
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 4: your joy just came through in all of it. And

746
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 4: it is it's a it's a sense of pure joy

747
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 4: and it is it is better than anything I know

748
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 4: in terms of I mean, we both are are lucky

749
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 4: to be, you know, to have a family and have

750
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 4: the you know that that's a different category, right. I

751
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 4: don't think you can compare. That's a you know, anyone

752
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 4: out there who has kids, you know, can relate to that.

753
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 4: But if you take that aside, it's hard to think

754
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 4: of a better feeling. I know for me that day

755
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 4: when I got that phone call that President Clinton was

756
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 4: had granted those clemencies, it.

757
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: Was the best feeling in the world because the best

758
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: someone know that you're going to change someone's life forever.

759
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 4: And I just want to do more than life. I'm

760
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 4: going to keep doing it until i am it's on

761
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 4: my last breath. I mean, because it's it's a purpose.

762
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 4: It's I call it selfish altruism. You know, it makes

763
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 4: me feel good. Yeah, I love doing it. I love

764
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,080
Speaker 4: talking about it. I love seeing people like you get

765
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,879
Speaker 4: involved with it. I love the movement spreading. I love

766
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 4: the laws that we're changing, and I'm going to you know, look,

767
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 4: it's amazing. Thirty years ago if someone said, hey, you know,

768
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 4: marijuana is going to be legal in most of the America,

769
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 4: I would have said no, it's not possible. But we fought,

770
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 4: like so many of us fought for this, you know.

771
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 4: And there's no reason anyone should go to jail for marijuana.

772
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 4: And that's changing. There's still people like Chris who are

773
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,760
Speaker 4: in prison for life for marijuana, a plant that's legal.

774
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 4: And how'd you like to be him or his family? Right?

775
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 4: Little cocaine, A little cocaine at half a gram? Oh

776
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 4: my god, a half a gram. Let's think about that.

777
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 4: A graham is such a small amount. It's like, think

778
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 4: about that. It's I don't even know, it's like, but yeah,

779
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 4: So look, we've got a ton of work to do.

780
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: You.

781
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 4: You know, we need more of you. I think we

782
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 4: need to. Really. The last point I want to talk

783
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 4: about is clemencies. You have shown in a very public

784
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 4: way that this act of mercy, this act of uh,

785
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 4: it's a responsibility, really, And the reason governors and presidents

786
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 4: are given that power is because they're supposed to do

787
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 4: things like this, right, it's there, it's part of their job.

788
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 4: And over the years it's declined so much. In the

789
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 4: post Willie Horton era, all of a sudden everyone was

790
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 4: scared to give clemencies. And that's not right, And I

791
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 4: know that for me, whether it was working with Governor

792
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 4: McAuliffe or other governors i've worked with or during the

793
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 4: Obama administration, or with President Clinton, every single time I've

794
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 4: had the experience of working with a political leader who

795
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 4: in a position to give those clemencies. In the aftermath,

796
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 4: they've come to me and said that it was a

797
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 4: profound experience for them. In many cases they meet the

798
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 4: people who they've ranton clemency to. President Clinton told me

799
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 4: subsequently he wished he would have done more, you know.

800
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 4: And so for people who are out there listening, who

801
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 4: may work in the offices of.

802
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: The halls of power, the White House will do more.

803
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 4: I think. I think with your support and other people

804
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 4: like you advocating, they will, and I think we can.

805
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 4: We can do so much better in the States as well.

806
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm hoping to meet Governor Brown and whoever will

807
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: be the next governor.

808
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 4: Hopefully. I'm a Newsom fan, so I hope Cavin Nussin's

809
00:42:56,040 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 4: the next governor. But the yes, Governor Brown has expressed

810
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 4: a great deal of interest in this. He's worked, He's

811
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 4: granted quite a few clemencies already, and I think he

812
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 4: has his heart in the right place. He wants to.

813
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 4: You know, he is someone who is on the same

814
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 4: page as us in terms of life without parole being

815
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 4: an insane sentence. It's an insane sentence. Yeah, life without parole.

816
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 4: And you know, and I will I said that was

817
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 4: gonna be the last pint. But I make more point

818
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 4: because for people out there listening, you're paying for this, right.

819
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 4: I mean, you know who's making money the prison. This

820
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 4: is the prison industrial contlects, the private prisons. There's a

821
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,359
Speaker 4: lot of people making money on these inmates, on these

822
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 4: these incarcerated people. But you're paying for it. It doesn't

823
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 4: come from the air, it doesn't come from you know,

824
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 4: it's not it's like it. And in some states we

825
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 4: spend more money incarcerating Americans than we do educating them,

826
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 4: and so and then of course the kids end up

827
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 4: with no parent and then they're much more likely to

828
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 4: get in trouble and so, you know, everything from bail reformed,

829
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 4: there's just so many important things that have to be done,

830
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 4: but we have to end mass incarcerat We can do it,

831
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:06,840
Speaker 4: and we will do it together. So for everybody listening

832
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:11,239
Speaker 4: out there, you know, get involved, go to families, against

833
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 4: mandatory minimums. FAMM dot org. Go to Buriedlive dot org.

834
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 4: Go to Innocenceproject dot org. Get online learn about it.

835
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 4: All these websites have pages where you can get involved,

836
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 4: host an event, raise money, write letters to inmates. So important,

837
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 4: I mean, give a little hope to That's my reading now.

838
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: I don't read books anymore. I read letters. I get

839
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: stacks of letters daily that inmates write me. So I

840
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: love to read them and go through them and hear

841
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: their stories, and I hope it all you know changes.

842
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, it's those people are you know, those people

843
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 4: are smart because they're reaching out. I mean, there's there's tragically,

844
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 4: there's so many people inside who've given up hope. Yeah,

845
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 4: and you know, and at the same time we've both

846
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 4: had the experience of seeing what it's like when they

847
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:06,440
Speaker 4: get out. These people are so full of grace and

848
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 4: so full of you know. The amazing thing is for

849
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 4: everyone I've met whose system effected formally incarcerated, there's not

850
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 4: one of them who's bitter. They all have the same

851
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 4: thing that I saw with Alice, you know, when she

852
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 4: was speaking. They're just optimistic and there they have, like

853
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 4: I said, this state of grace and that puts so

854
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 4: much gratitude in my attitude when I see these people

855
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 4: who are like they've just been through this ordeal that

856
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 4: no one can even imagine that hasn't been through it.

857
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 4: I can't, and I've been around it for twenty five years,

858
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 4: and yet they come out like, hey man, let's go.

859
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 4: Like you know, I was actually talking to my friend,

860
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 4: the artist I was talking to my friend, the artist

861
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 4: Peter Tunney today about a guy named Keith Allen Harvard

862
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 4: who's been on the same podcast, who was in prison

863
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 4: for thirty four years for crime didn't commit, and he

864
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 4: has nothing but just that'ctivity.

865
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's so many cases that I've been

866
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: reading about that lately, just completely innocent and just people

867
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: that have been in for thirty plus years when just

868
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: DNA testing is so different. Like Kevin Cooper.

869
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 4: Oh, Kevin Cooper, I know.

870
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: I tweeted for Governor Brown. I'm like, please just DNA test. Yeah,

871
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 1: I mean, it's good, you got to do.

872
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 4: It's like the most let's just find out whether he's

873
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 4: guilty or innocent. The DNA doesn't lie. Yeah, you know,

874
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 4: that's what.

875
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: That there should just that is what literally kills me

876
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:44,359
Speaker 1: stories like his that it's so simple and.

877
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 4: He could have been executed too. I mean, there's so

878
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,959
Speaker 4: many innocent people on death row. We know that approximately

879
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 4: the best estimates are the four percent of people on

880
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 4: death row are innocent. So imagine that. When I talk

881
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 4: to people who are in favor of the death penalty,

882
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 4: I'm like, well, okay, how many innocent people is it

883
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 4: okay to execute? Yeah? And people go no, no, no, But

884
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 4: I mean you can't actually, but you know the system.

885
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: Is, how can you be on death row without DNA evidence,

886
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: with nothing linking you, like to the It's so crazy

887
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,320
Speaker 1: to me, that's just crazy.

888
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 4: There was there have been executions where we've been fighting

889
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 4: to get the DNA tested and they've refused right up

890
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 4: until the day of the execution. And God had to

891
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 4: execute somebody anyway. I mean, it's it's just it is.

892
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 4: There was one in Kansas. It was Kansas last year

893
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 4: that we were fighting like hell to get this the

894
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 4: DNA tested and they just wouldn't do it. It was a

895
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 4: guy named Liddell Lee and he's gone now. And it's

896
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:38,800
Speaker 4: like the state should not be in the business of

897
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,320
Speaker 4: killing people because we the system is never going to

898
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 4: be perfect. Even if everybody's well intentioned, it's not going

899
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 4: to be perfect. And for people listening out there, and

900
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 4: they've heard me say this on the show before, when

901
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 4: we convict an innocent person and we keep them in prison,

902
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 4: even when the authorities know they're innocent, that means that

903
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 4: the guilty person is free. Just like in Kevin Cooper's case,

904
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,919
Speaker 4: everybody knows it was the three white guys that did it.

905
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 4: There's overwhelming evidence of that, and those guys were free

906
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 4: to go out, and.

907
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 1: There's like, I mean, the guy's girlfriend called and said,

908
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 1: I mean everyone that makes no sense, Like, wouldn't the

909
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: community be more scared knowing that there is like some

910
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: multiple people said it was three white guys and then

911
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 1: just to know that they're not locked up and they

912
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 1: have a black guy locked up instead, like that fear

913
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:31,360
Speaker 1: to me? Would I don't know. It is so so twisted, so.

914
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 4: Twisted, and it's not It's very common you know, in

915
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 4: so many of the cases the Innocence Project, when we

916
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 4: exonerate an innocent person with DNA, we then put the

917
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 4: DNA in the national database and we often get a hit.

918
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 4: I don't know if it's fifty percent of the time,

919
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 4: and we were able to show who the actual perpetrator was.

920
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 4: And in an overwhelming percentage of those cases, that person

921
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,840
Speaker 4: has gone on and raped and murdered other people, innocent people,

922
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 4: because they were free because the authorities didn't do their job.

923
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 4: And sometimes there's a mistake. I understand nobody's prayer picked that.

924
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 4: You know, everyone makes mistakes. I makes mistakes in my job.

925
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 4: But there's a not a lot of these cases like

926
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,440
Speaker 4: Kevin Cooper, where it was obvious from the beginning that

927
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 4: he didn't do it, and they had that case came

928
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 4: with instructions, just like the Central Park five did the

929
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 4: Central Park five And I Interviewedduceef Salama last week in

930
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 4: New York on this show. You know, in that case,

931
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 4: they had every reason to suspect that it was this guy,

932
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 4: Matthias Rayis. They were already watching him. He was a

933
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 4: suspect in another similar rape and beating where the Central

934
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 4: Park Joggra was almost beaten to death. She lost seventy

935
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 4: five percent of her blood. They knew it had to

936
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 4: be him, they knew it was a single perpetrator, and

937
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,280
Speaker 4: they rested these five black kids just because black and hispanic,

938
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 4: just because they could, and then the testing came back

939
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 4: and they saw that none of the blood matched the

940
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 4: blood of the perpetrator was there the seamen. It didn't

941
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 4: match any of those kids, and they went ahead and

942
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 4: prosecuted them anyway. And then this Matthias Rayis guy went

943
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 4: out and raped four other women and killed one of

944
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 4: them in the apartment with her three children there. She

945
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 4: was pregnant. I mean, it doesn't get worse, and she said,

946
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:00,839
Speaker 4: can I please just put my kids in the other

947
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 4: room before you kill me? And then he did and

948
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 4: he went ahead and killed her. And like that woman

949
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 4: should be alive today, and I believe that the authority

950
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 4: should be held responsible for her death because they knew

951
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 4: who it was. But they had so much media on

952
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 4: that case. And that's another thing for people to be

953
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 4: aware of when you're on a jury, when there's so

954
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 4: much media around a case, and making a murderer made

955
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 4: this point very well too, right, And you know, we

956
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 4: can have a debate about that all day long. But

957
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 4: Brendan Dacy is innocent, right, He's totally is he still

958
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 4: in prison, But and that that I wanted to jump

959
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 4: through the screen and that watched that movie and strangle somebody.

960
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 4: I was like, if I could jump, I mean so,

961
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 4: but yeah, so in those cases, and Kevin Cooper is

962
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 4: one of those cases where it's abundance thirty something years. Yeah,

963
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 4: and he could have very well been executed. And there's

964
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 4: so many Kevin Cooper's out there, and it had I mean,

965
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 4: it has to change.

966
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 1: I heard the their DNA testing it though. I think

967
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: that's finally I saw online.

968
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's like it's it's a it's a massive problem. Look,

969
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 4: I mean we were going to fix it. It's a huge challenge.

970
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 4: But you know, nothing comes easy. I mean, here it is.

971
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,839
Speaker 4: Isn't today like Mandela's hundredth birthday or something like that.

972
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 4: So what a way to celebrate by bringing attention to

973
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 4: this amazing cause. And you know, I could literally sit

974
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,359
Speaker 4: here and talk to you all day. I see you're

975
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 4: like a sponge. You're learning so much and such a

976
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 4: sure you're not.

977
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 1: I don't know everything, And I love to ask questions.

978
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: I love to listen to stories and just soak it

979
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: all in and see what I can do next.

980
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, well we're going to We're going to do big

981
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 4: things together. I can see it now. I'm I'm just

982
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 4: as you can tell I'm so excited that I can't

983
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 4: stop talking because I just this is what gets me.

984
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,840
Speaker 4: As you can tell, I'm most excited like the thrill

985
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 4: of being able to help, you know, Honora Jackson or

986
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 4: Michelle Murphy, and to make a difference in the lives

987
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 4: of those people who are just people like you and me,

988
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 4: who one day we're just living their life and then

989
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 4: the justice system just collapsed on them. And well, first

990
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,440
Speaker 4: of all, my listeners know, if you get arrested for

991
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 4: something and you didn't do it, don't say anything. The

992
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 4: cops are not your friends. They're going to bring you

993
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 4: in and they say, Kim, we just want to ask

994
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 4: a few questions. The only thing you say is my

995
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 4: name is Kim Dashian, here's my address, and I want

996
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 4: a lawyer. That's it. And then shut up. After you

997
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 4: say I want a lawyer. They're not allowed to talk

998
00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 4: to you anymore. But if you start talking, they'll eventually

999
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 4: get you to say almost anything. They'll say. You'll say

1000
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,360
Speaker 4: you kidnap the Lindberg baby if they keep you in

1001
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 4: there long enough, you know what I mean. So, but

1002
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 4: so for people out there listening, you know, get involved,

1003
00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 4: be woke, right serve on jury duty because it's so

1004
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 4: important someone else's life will be in your hands. And vote.

1005
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 4: I mean you have to vote. You have to to

1006
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 4: learn about these cases. Look at the DA's races, right,

1007
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 4: there's such low turnout of these races. Get out there

1008
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 4: and vote for the progressive candidate because there are people

1009
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 4: like Larry Krasner who just got elected in Philadelphia, who's

1010
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 4: going to turn the system upside down, right, because he

1011
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 4: comes in and he goes, look, I'm not going to

1012
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 4: tolerate this, Like we're not going to lock up in

1013
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 4: and people, We're not going to prosecute people for these

1014
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 4: ridiculous low level non violent crimes, pod offenses, things like that,

1015
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 4: Like we need progressive prosecutors because they hold all the power.

1016
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 4: And that goes back to what it was saying, which

1017
00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 4: is that criminal defense attorneys' it's such a tilted system, right.

1018
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 4: You know, the scales of justice are supposed to be even.

1019
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 4: But if you're poor and you get caught in the

1020
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 4: system and you have a public defender who's overworked, underpaid,

1021
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 4: maybe doesn't even know what they're doing. I mean we've

1022
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 4: had cases death penalty cases where the divorce lawyer did

1023
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 4: it or something like that, or like somebody or people

1024
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 4: who are drunk, or even in Texas, there was a

1025
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 4: case where the lawyer was asleep and the Court of

1026
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 4: Appeals in Texas the lawyer slept and the Court of

1027
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,799
Speaker 4: Appeals ruled that because the guy appealed and said he

1028
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 4: was entitled to an attorney that was awake, and they said, no, no,

1029
00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 4: you're entitled to attorney, but not necessarily one that's awake.

1030
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 4: So we've seen cases where the attorney was drunk, where

1031
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 4: the attorney didn't show up. But even in the best case,

1032
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,320
Speaker 4: public defenders are overworked, underpaid. They don't have the resources.

1033
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 4: In some states you have five hundred dollars to defend

1034
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 4: even a capital case. You can't hire investigators. Going back

1035
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 4: to what you said before, whereas the prosecutors, I didn't

1036
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 4: know that. Yeah, And the prosecutors have all this power.

1037
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,360
Speaker 4: They're able to decide, They're able to go to you

1038
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 4: and say listen. Ninety six percent of all felony convictions

1039
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 4: of America are the result of guilty please because the

1040
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 4: prosecutors have so much power, because they can go to

1041
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,480
Speaker 4: an Alice Johnson they say listen, we're going to give

1042
00:54:25,480 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 4: you life. In prison unless you plead guilty and you

1043
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 4: may not have even done anything, but your public defender

1044
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 4: you're looking, You're going that guy doesn't look like, oh,

1045
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 4: that woman doesn't look like they know what they're doing.

1046
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 4: I'm in big trouble here, Like they're stacked against me.

1047
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 4: You've got all these you know, and a jury comes

1048
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 4: in with an inherent bias thinking that if you're up

1049
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 4: on the stand, you must have done something. This has

1050
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 4: been proven in the study that was done by my

1051
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 4: friend Josh Dubin. So you have a really like a

1052
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 4: Sophie's choice or a Hobson's choice, because you know you're

1053
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 4: facing these prosecutors and they have a reverse incentive, which

1054
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:59,399
Speaker 4: is that they want convictions. They don't necessarily want justice

1055
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 4: for them, to me, it is right.

1056
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: They'd rather have a guilty person out there then and

1057
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 1: just to get a.

1058
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:10,200
Speaker 4: Conviction and get it off their desk, and then they

1059
00:55:10,239 --> 00:55:12,359
Speaker 4: go home and then go home and have a nice

1060
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 4: dinner and go to sleep, watch a little TV. And

1061
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 4: it's like, I don't understand the lack of humanity, that

1062
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 4: that's inherent and that so Kim, like I said, I

1063
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 4: could literally talk to you all day. I really enjoy it,

1064
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 4: but I don't want to keep you here all day,

1065
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 4: and but I do want to. I have a tradition

1066
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:34,719
Speaker 4: here on Ralph Convictions, and listeners know they're used to this,

1067
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,680
Speaker 4: and this is my favorite part of the show. Usually

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00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 4: it's an EXONNAI sitting where you are, or someone who

1069
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,920
Speaker 4: is incarcerated, but this part of the show is where

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00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 4: I shut up and I say to you, first of all, Kim,

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00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 4: thank you for being here and taking your time. I

1072
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 4: know you could be doing a million other things, but

1073
00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 4: for having and lending your voice to the movement. And

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00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 4: now I just want to say, turn the mic over

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00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 4: to you and say what if you want to leave

1076
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 4: our audience with any thoughts at all? What would they be?

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00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 1: Just that I didn't know anything going into this, and

1078
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 1: I still don't know everything. I'm learning so much as

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00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: I go, but I know that I have a voice,

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00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: and so I am happy to use it. So if

1081
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 1: you feel passionate about this at all, to anyone just

1082
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 1: out there listening, there's so much you can do to help,

1083
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 1: and I just encourage.

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00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 4: You to do that. Wise words, and I want to

1085
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 4: once again thank you. That's been a real pleasure for

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00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 4: me today.

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00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: It was nice to meet you.

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00:56:44,080 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 4: Thank you yeah, and thanks for being here. And once

1089
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 4: again you've been listening to a very special episode of

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00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction with Kim Kardashian and Jason Flamm don't forget

1091
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,680
Speaker 4: to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts,

1092
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 4: it really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the

1093
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 4: Innocence Project and I really hope you'll join me in

1094
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 4: supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future

1095
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 4: wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how

1096
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 4: to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our

1097
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,240
Speaker 4: production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in

1098
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 4: the show is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 4: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

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00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 4: and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with

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00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 4: Jason Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts

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Speaker 4: and association with Signal Company Number one