1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,080 Speaker 1: Coming up on you need therapy. 2 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 2: I know a ton of men with eating disorders that 3 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 2: just say that they're fasting. 4 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Oh for sure. 5 00:00:07,000 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 2: You know, look at our diets, look at the way 6 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 2: we're look at the way we're eating, and the way 7 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 2: that we are tracking calories and all of these types 8 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life. 9 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: Which is why I talk in the book about the 10 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 2: why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome, 11 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,479 Speaker 2: and that outcome isn't your job or truly related to 12 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: your happiness, there's an underlying issue there that you're not 13 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: actually dealing with. And yet, you know, we follow Instagram 14 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 2: influencers and all these diet coaches and all these types 15 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,239 Speaker 2: of things. In reality, like I know a lot of 16 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 2: these guys. 17 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:36,639 Speaker 3: That are really unhappy. 18 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 2: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't 19 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: a liability, it's a real gift. If we don't know 20 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: something about ourselves at this point in our life, it's 21 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: probably because it's uncomfortable to know. 22 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,959 Speaker 3: If you can die before you die, then you can 23 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 3: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. I thought 24 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: I was insane, yeah, and I didn't know what to do. 25 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: Because there was no Internet. 26 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 3: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything 27 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 3: is hard. 28 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a human first 29 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: and a licensed therapist second, and right now I'm inviting 30 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: you into conversations that I hope encourage you to become 31 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, and the 32 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: world around you. Welcome to You Need Therapy. Hi guys, 33 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,479 Speaker 1: and welcome back to another new episode of You Need 34 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat, and I am especially 35 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 1: excited that you are here listening today. Now, before we 36 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 1: get into the episode, if you are new or just 37 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: need a reminder just so you are familiar with what 38 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: goes on here. I am a licensed therapist and I 39 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: own my own practice in Nashville where I do therapy 40 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: all day long. But this podcast is not therapy, and 41 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: I just think it's important to remind us all that 42 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: this is not a replacement, nor is it therapy. But 43 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: it is a resource and a really helpful resource that 44 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: sometimes might help encourage you to start therapy if that 45 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: is something that you believe you need. Now today I 46 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: am giving you, guys a little throwback episode to what 47 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 1: I believe in what I'm going to go down in 48 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: history saying is my favorite interview and therefore, episode to date, 49 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: you are going to hear a conversation that I had 50 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: with the one, the only Justin Baldoni. And if you 51 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 1: are unfamiliar with him, you are missing out on so, 52 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: so so much. You might recognize him from playing Raphael 53 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: on Jane the Virgin, or you might be more familiar 54 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: with him now playing Ryle in the film adaptation of 55 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: It Ends with Us which is in theaters now. However, 56 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: that's actually not how I found out about him or 57 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: learned about him. I learned about who he was from 58 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: his book Man Enough, which blew my mind. This book, 59 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: I'm not exaggerating, chapter by chapter, page by page, This 60 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: book was opening up and blowing my mind. So back 61 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty one when this book came out, and 62 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: when I got my hands on it, I thought to myself, 63 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't it be cool to have Justin on Union therapy? 64 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: And why didn't you know? He agreed to do it, 65 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: which also blew my mind, And I was so grateful 66 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: for he was such a fun person to interview, such 67 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: an easy person to interview, such a kind person. I 68 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: could go on it, on and on now. Justin has 69 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: been seeking out these kinds of vulnerable conversations and uncomfortable 70 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: conversations for years now through his Instagram TV series, which 71 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: led him to a viral ted Talk, which then led 72 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: him to the book Man Enough that I Am Obsessed With, 73 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: which then led him to hosting his Man Enough podcast, 74 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: which is with his friend Jamie and also with another 75 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: fellow UNI Therapy guest of years past, Liz Plank, which 76 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: I highly recommend that podcast. He also, like I said, directed, 77 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: he directed, not just started. He directed the film adaptation 78 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,839 Speaker 1: of Colling Hoover's book It Ends with Us, which just 79 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: came out and I actually went and saw it last night, 80 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: which is why I thought to myself, I think it 81 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: might be a really good time to release this episode 82 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: that I recorded with Justin back in twenty twenty one. 83 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: Justin's work continues to inspire me, and I am not 84 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: just saying this. Everything he does really does lead me 85 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: to learning something else about either myself, humanity, men, women. 86 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: In the film It Ends with Us explores the complexities 87 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: of domestic violence, and I really am grateful for people 88 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: like him who want to help the world see an 89 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: un stand to the best we can those complexities. And 90 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: just a fyi this episode, this conversation was recorded a 91 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, so we don't talk about the film, 92 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 1: but that would be another interesting conversation Justin, if you're 93 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: out there, I'm open to it. If you are. Justin 94 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: describes himself as a student and not an expert. But 95 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 1: I am very serious when I say he is somebody 96 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: who has really opened up my eyes and taught me 97 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: so much through his work and through the conversations that 98 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: he continues to have with people all over the place. 99 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: And he's not afraid to say the hard stuff. He's 100 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: not afraid to hear the hard stuff. And I'm someone 101 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: who is trying to and continuing to learn over and 102 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: over that I need to hear and sometimes I need 103 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: to be the person that says the hard things as well. 104 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: But I think if it's between me and you, I 105 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: need to be better about hearing the hard things. So 106 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 1: I hope you guys enjoy this episode. I hope that 107 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: you are open to hearing whatever it is that you 108 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: need to hear in the conversation we have today. And 109 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 1: before we get into it, you might just want to 110 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: take a couple of deep breaths, because some of the 111 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:07,559 Speaker 1: things we talk about are things that you might bump 112 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: up against and you might have some resistance, and that's okay, 113 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: that's part of the process of learning and growing. So 114 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: take it a couple of deep breaths and let those out, 115 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 1: and honestly, you might want to keep doing that throughout 116 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: the episode. But I hope you enjoy this conversation as 117 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: much as I did and got as much out of it, 118 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: or get as much out of it as I did. 119 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: So here is my conversation with Justin Baldoni. Okay, so 120 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: let's start with this question. So reading the book and 121 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: then also listening to your podcast and also your Ted 122 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: Talk that was I think did that kind of spearhead 123 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: all of this. 124 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, I started shooting The Man and of TV digital 125 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: series and then I did the Ted Talk. But the 126 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: Ted Talk really is what kind of took everything. 127 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: Off, and I took off and inspired me to go deeper. 128 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 1: So a lot of what you are talking about is 129 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: talking about masculinity, the way the world set up in 130 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: our culture and a lot of the issues with it. 131 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: But at the same time, the way that our culture 132 00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: is set up around just like men and patriarchy, and 133 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: a lot of that benefits you in a lot of ways. 134 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: So I want to hear what has been like for 135 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: you to kind of break some of that down, especially 136 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: because I think depending on who you are and where 137 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: you are in your life, there's probably people that are like, 138 00:07:23,560 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: don't mess this up for us. You know, there's probably 139 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: some men that are like, well, this is working for 140 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: us because if we have our horse blinders on, we 141 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 1: don't have to pay attention to a lot of stuff 142 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: that you're exposing. So what has that process been like 143 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: for you. 144 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 3: It's a great question, not easy or fun or comfortable. 145 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 3: But before you. 146 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 2: Even get into that, the idea of there's like a 147 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: lot of men that would say, don't mess this up 148 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: for us is I think part of the issue in 149 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: that men aren't saying that because most men don't think. 150 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 3: They're at an advantage. 151 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: So it be controversial, but I just believe in the 152 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: goodness of men, and I don't believe that men are 153 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 2: out there thinking that this world benefits me. I'm at 154 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: an advantage and therefore I want to keep my power 155 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: because that would be assuming that most men are not 156 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: good men, and they're power hungry and they want to 157 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: stay dominant. I honestly believe, especially the men who are 158 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 2: kind of anti this movement of equality or keep men 159 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: strong and all this type of stuff, I honestly believe 160 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 2: those men have the most fear and that they they 161 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,840 Speaker 2: are looking at their lives and saying, my life is 162 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:35,679 Speaker 2: freaking hard. 163 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:37,479 Speaker 3: I'm hurting, I'm struggling. 164 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: Work's not going great, you know, trying to make this 165 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: work with my wife. I'm working too much. I don't 166 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 2: get to see my kids. Like I think that men 167 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 2: are like, this isn't working for me. Don't tell me 168 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: I'm at a disadvantage, or don't tell me I'm at 169 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: an advantage. Don't tell me that I have privilege. I 170 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 2: think that that's where it comes from. I don't think 171 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:58,840 Speaker 2: it's like I have all this power this world benefits me, 172 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 2: and therefore like this guy and stop talking about gender equality, 173 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: because what we know about privilege is that for folks 174 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: with privilege, equality can feel like oppression, right, Martin Luther King. 175 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 2: So in terms of just this movement itself and like equality, 176 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 2: I think the issue is that, yes, as a man, 177 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 2: I have privileges from birth, especially as a white straight man, 178 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: that women don't have that black men don't have. Right, 179 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: gay men or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have. 180 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 2: But I was not taught to recognize that privilege as 181 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 2: a man. I was just brought up in this society 182 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 2: and told this is how it goes, and this is 183 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 2: how it works, and this is what you have to 184 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 2: do if you want to succeed or win. And the 185 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 2: problem with having that type of privilege in a patriarchal 186 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 2: society is that I am not allowed to hurt. So 187 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 2: while yes, there's tremendous benefits to being a man, as 188 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: an example, I don't have to worry about being sexually 189 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: assaulted or raped when I walk down the street. Right, 190 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: I in general know that just from being born and 191 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,679 Speaker 2: if I have an education, I'll make more money than women. 192 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 3: Right, there's innate privileges that come with it. 193 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 2: But what doesn't come with it is the space to 194 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: hurt and to be in distress and to be depressed 195 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: and to be confused and to be and to have 196 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,760 Speaker 2: anxiety and to be a human being in our culture. 197 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: So there's like, there's clear benefits, but I actually believe 198 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: that while it's benefiting me, it's actually hurting me more 199 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 2: than it's helping me because all of the benefits I'm 200 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: getting from the patriarchy are material benefits. The emotional tax 201 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,080 Speaker 2: that I have to pay for that I believe is 202 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: far higher than the benefits, which is why I'm doing 203 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 2: this work. Why Yeah, I didn't sets out reluctantly, which 204 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 2: is why I ended up writing the book reluctantly because 205 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 2: I know that by coming out and challenging this system 206 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: and by saying this isn't working for anybody, there are 207 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 2: nevily going to be men who don't recognize that they 208 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 2: are even hurting, who don't recognize that they have innate privilege, 209 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: who are going to then use what they have been 210 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 2: taught the power dynamic of the patriarchy to attack me 211 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 2: and bring me down and make me feel less than that's, 212 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: of course, the reluctance to doing this type of work. 213 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 3: Did that answer your question a little bit? 214 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: That more than answers my question. Everything you said was 215 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: both It's hard. I think part of it's hard for 216 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: me to hear that because that was my thoughts, in 217 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: my bias, in my own mind coming through asking that question. One, 218 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 1: because I'm not a guy and I'm not a man, 219 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: and it's making me think about the difference between as 220 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: a therapist, I work primarily with women, not because that's 221 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: what I ask to work with, because the majority of 222 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: people going to therapy are women. 223 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 3: Yeah. 224 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: And another thing is my specialty is eating disorders and body. 225 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 3: And oh so cool. 226 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. So the other thing about that is I have 227 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: a caseload of I probably have forty people in my caseload. 228 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: I think there's three guys. Of those three guys, none 229 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: of them are talking about body image or eating or 230 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: anything like that. And it's also not because men don't 231 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: have that problem. No, it's because men aren't talking about 232 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: that as much. Which to go back to the chapter 233 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: that I'm rereading, it's your Body Image one two. 234 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 3: That's a really deep chapter. 235 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 1: It's so good. But I think everything you're saying is 236 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: talking about that. You're right, it's not working because to me, 237 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 1: I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation 238 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff 239 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things 240 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: and be honest. And what you're saying is like, men 241 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: don't feel that invitation. This isn't working for us, and 242 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: so yeah, maybe we do make more money or we 243 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: have this, or we have that, but the real meat 244 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: of what life is about, we don't have as much 245 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: space in that realm. 246 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 3: No, there's no space. And it makes this makes perfect sense. 247 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 2: There's very few men in your practice, especially as it relates. 248 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 3: To eating disorders, because what. 249 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 2: We've done is we've disguised eating disorders as a as 250 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 2: a sign of masculinity. Like if you look at how 251 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 2: we as men are told we should look when our 252 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 2: bodies should look like, you really can't get there unless 253 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 2: you have some form of an eating disorder, right, thank you. 254 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: We even disguised, like I know a ton of men 255 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: with eating disorders that just say that they're fasting. 256 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: Oh for sure. 257 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 2: You know, look at our diets, look at the way 258 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 2: we're look at the way we're eating, and the way 259 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: that we are tracking calories and all of these types 260 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life. 261 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: Which is why I talk in the book about the 262 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 2: why ladder. When you're doing it for a specific outcome, 263 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 2: and that and that outcome isn't your job or truly 264 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,040 Speaker 2: related to your happiness. 265 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 3: There's an underlying issue there that you're not actually dealing with. 266 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 2: And yet you know we follow Instagram influencers and all 267 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 2: these diet coaches and all these types of things. In reality, 268 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: like I know a lot of these guys that are 269 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 2: really unhappy. 270 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 3: They are they need therapy. 271 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 2: And they repress it and they push it down, and 272 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 2: they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that 273 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: they eat, and they obsess over their food and if 274 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty four hours. 275 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 2: Like this is all very normalized types of things, but 276 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: we've normalized it because it's a sign of masculinity, it's 277 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: a sign of an attractive body, when in reality, there's 278 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: a very high chance probability that there's some eating disorder 279 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: stuff happening there. And on top of that, we have 280 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: image disorders and body like body dysmorphia and muscless morphia, 281 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: all these types of things that so many of us 282 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 2: men have. But we've just chucked that up to being men. 283 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 2: This is just a part of it, and we're not 284 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: actually talking about it. And also, finally, as it relates 285 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 2: to like the idea that there's no men in therapy 286 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 2: or in your practice, women have had to lean on 287 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: each other and build community to cope. I believe with 288 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 2: the stress and tact of what it means to be 289 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: a woman in society. Women have had to be there 290 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: for each other because men can't be there for each other. 291 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: And therefore, in addition to all the bullshit that women 292 00:14:57,960 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: have to put up with on a daily basis from men, 293 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: men also then put women in a place where they 294 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: have to be their therapists and confide in them. So 295 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 2: not only are women holding all of the female things 296 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: that happen to them on a daily basis, the microaggressions, 297 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: the fear of sexual assault or rape, and the stress 298 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: of trying to raise a family and be mothers and 299 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: and get in and basically give herself to everybody, she 300 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 2: now has to also hold the weight of her man 301 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: because her man can't talk to men or anybody else 302 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, and the only place 303 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: a woman can go is other women. So therefore community 304 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 2: was built, which is why, like, I know, you know 305 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 2: so many women who on like you know, they see 306 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: another woman and boom, it's how are you? What's happening 307 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 2: in You're likefe tell me are you okay? And men 308 00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: are just like, let's just avoid that conversation forever. Let's 309 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: just watch the game, drink a beer, and whatever it is. 310 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: Here's my question for you. What happens when a guy 311 00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: does do that? Like what happens when a guy goes 312 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: over to somebody's house and maybe you're going to watch 313 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: a game and you're like, hey, before we put the 314 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: game on. I don't know if men do this? Like, 315 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: how are you. 316 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 3: Men don't do that? 317 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 2: The problem is is that from a very early age, 318 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: I don't want to say all men, but a vast 319 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: majority of men from my research and both in my research, 320 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 2: both in my personal life and also actual research, are 321 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: taught that that's not a safe thing to do. And 322 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 2: that happens because early on, when we're kids, when we're 323 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 2: in situations that would require vulnerability, or when our bodies 324 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: are changing, or if something happens, oftentimes the thing that 325 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 2: happens turns into shaming and like public shaming and making 326 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 2: fun of and humiliation, And what we're taught then is 327 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 2: that men are not safe spaces. That if I'm going to, 328 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 2: as an example, like you know, who knows, piss in 329 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 2: my pants or something as a kid, or pee in 330 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 2: the bed and I'm going to sleep over, then those 331 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: boys will go tell other boys, and I'll get made 332 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: fun of at school. So the vulnerability, the thing, right, 333 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 2: the thing that I'm struggling with as a kid, will 334 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: then be used against me. Why because as boys were 335 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 2: taught that we have to one up each other in 336 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 2: order to gain power and popularity. Right, So the ladder 337 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: of achieving that this mythical alpha status, even as a 338 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: young boy, is using other people, put putting other boys 339 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 2: down to build yourself up. That's this mirage of the patriarchy. 340 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 2: That's how that's what it's built on. It's this one upmanship. 341 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 2: And so God knows whether you're like, you know, the 342 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 2: kid that shat on the bus, you know, at an 343 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,880 Speaker 2: accident when he was seven. Well, we know that boys 344 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: take that and keep calling that kid that name until 345 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 2: their seniors. 346 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: In high school forever, forever. You get labeled these things. 347 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: I remember I remember being what was I maybe eleven, 348 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: eleven or twelve or something, and my body was changing 349 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 2: like all the other kids, and I was getting these 350 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: like you know, the wind could blow and I would 351 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 2: get an erection. This is what happens to young boys. 352 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 2: Nobody talks to us about it. Our parents don't talk 353 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 2: to us about it. We don't learn about it in school, 354 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: we don't learn how to deal with it. So suddenly 355 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 2: there's just shame around it, and our bodies are changing 356 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 2: their shame around it. 357 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 3: We haven't discovered sex yet. 358 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 2: By eleven or twelve, I had actually already been introduced 359 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 2: to porn, although my body hadn't really started changing so 360 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: much yet that I was able to use it to 361 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 2: like masturbate or things like that. But we're exposed to 362 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: these things at a young age. And I remember being 363 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: with another guy and no thought, no anything. My body 364 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: is just like I just got an erection, And I 365 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: remember tucking it into my pants and making a joke 366 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 2: about it because he's another boy and he's going through puberty, 367 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 2: and I'm like. 368 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 3: Oh, he'll get it. 369 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: And instead he went to school and started a rumor 370 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 2: that I touched myself around him, and I didn't know 371 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: what happened, And all of. 372 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 3: A sudden, everybody was laughing at me. 373 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,479 Speaker 2: When I got off the bus the next day, and 374 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: this was my good friend, and I was like, what's happening? 375 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: And people were and girls were laughing and guys laughing, 376 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: and they were calling me names. And luckily I had 377 00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 2: so many friends that were girls. I said, what's going 378 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: on in whispered to me and they said, he said 379 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: that you were touching yourself in front of him. And 380 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 2: I was mortified because I wasn't. I literally was adjusting 381 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 2: my eleven year old direction. And here was this boy 382 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 2: who knew that if you went to school the next 383 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 2: day and made fun of me, that everybody would you 384 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 2: him as more powerful or popular or whatever it is. 385 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: So at eleven years old, I knew, boom, men are 386 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 2: not safe. Boys are not safe. 387 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: Girls are safe, and that's what we do. 388 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: So that's in us and every man has their own 389 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 2: version of that, their own experience, but that happens over 390 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 2: and over and over and over again in our lives. 391 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,960 Speaker 1: So so much was just brought up in that I'm 392 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: sitting here thinking about, like, so, then what do we do? 393 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: Because you're bringing back a memory for me of working 394 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,120 Speaker 1: in a treatment center. I worked in the eating disorder program, 395 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: but there's tons of different programs here. I worked with women, 396 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: but I was I started a men's body image group 397 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: because I was like, I think people might want to come, 398 00:19:57,760 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: and little by little, one guy came in, the next 399 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: three guys came the next week. Finally there's like ten 400 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: twelve guys, which was a CAP And one of the 401 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: guys said to me one day because I was like, 402 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 1: do you guys like want to come here? Like do 403 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: we want me to keep doing this? And he was like, Kat, 404 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: this is the group and these people are in its 405 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: residential treatment, so they're in groups in therapy all day long, 406 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: all week long. He said, I look forward to this 407 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: group every week now. It is the group that I 408 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: feel the most safe. And I don't necessarily know that 409 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: that was because there's a female running. It could have 410 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 1: had something to do with that. But I think the 411 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: other thing is the group was created to talk about 412 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: things that weren't talked about in their house, in their 413 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: in their program. It was like the women's issue. So 414 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: that memory just got brought up for me as you 415 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: were talking, because they could have been talking about that 416 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: in their groups. They could have been talking about body 417 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: I mentioned in their group, but obviously they didn't feel 418 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: safe to do that because somebody would have made fun 419 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: of them, I'm sure, or made a joke or said 420 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: something or looked at them weird. And in that group, 421 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 1: nobody was doing that because everybody had the same shared issue. 422 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: So long winded way, what are we supposed to do 423 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: to help men and feel safe with other men so 424 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: then the women aren't exhausted and the men actually can 425 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: get their needs met. 426 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 3: There's two things that I can think of. 427 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 2: One of them actually is and unfortunately comes back to women. Yeah, 428 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 2: because women are not immune from the shaming response either. 429 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: It's really tricky. So you know, Bell Hooks is, I'm 430 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 2: sure you read writes about female misogyny and I don't 431 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 2: believe it's intentional. I'm sure there are some women that 432 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: are absolutely misogynistic because for a lot of reasons, right, 433 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 2: But it's very surprising how many quote unquote woke women 434 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: actually have a lot of their own internal misogyny. And 435 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 2: what that looks like is, I think a combination of 436 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 2: a lot of things. One is, we've all been raised 437 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 2: the same way men and women have been socialized in 438 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 2: the same way. Women have been socialized to view men 439 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: in the same way that men have been socialized to 440 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: view men, and to be themselves. So there is a 441 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 2: part of many women, while they desire I believe, vulnerability 442 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 2: in a man, there's a part of them that has 443 00:21:57,960 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 2: been trained to be disgusted by it. 444 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,800 Speaker 1: Well, Yeah, it's like in my head, I just thought 445 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: like be vulnerable, but like not too much. 446 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 3: Well, and that's like I want. 447 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: I want my partner to cry, but I don't want 448 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: him to be like two whiny. 449 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: Yea and so and what is that line? Right? And 450 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: that's a really tricky thing. 451 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 2: Glennon Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility that 452 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: women have here and really this is a woman's conversation. 453 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 3: I can't have the conversation for women. 454 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: What I can tell women who are listening, assuming that 455 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 2: most of your listeners are women, is that be very 456 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 2: mindful of the moment a man opens up to you 457 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: and your reaction, because your reaction will train him whether 458 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 2: or not it's safe for him to open up. Because 459 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 2: if he can't open up with men, and he does 460 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: finally open up with a woman and the woman loses 461 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,200 Speaker 2: attraction or tells him to man up, which has happened 462 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: many times. Yeah, you're creating a situation where a man 463 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 2: literally has nowhere to go. 464 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 3: Now. 465 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: I'm not pro men, as I said earlier, putting their 466 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 2: shit on women, but we have to start somewhere, and 467 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 2: there's nowhere for us to go. The idea of going 468 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: to a therapist is like climbing Mount Everest for many 469 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: men who have never trained, like, it's not going up 470 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 2: and hiking your local mountain, it's jumping right into Mount Everest, 471 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 2: talking to another dude, calling another guy and being like, 472 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: hey man, I'm struggling. That does not exist in our vocabulary, 473 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: which is why so many of us men go to 474 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: women and have made women are therapists. The difference is 475 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: how can women hold some of that without allowing that 476 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 2: boundary to be crossed so that they don't become the 477 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: therapist and what ends up happening? As I've had, I 478 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 2: can't even tell you how many messages I have from 479 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: men who have watched the Ted Talker, read the book 480 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 2: now and have opened up to women and the women 481 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 2: have rejected them. It just happens all the time, and 482 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: it's not even the woman's fault, because the woman has 483 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 2: been told this part of a man. If they do this, 484 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 2: they guy's a pussy, that guy's of this, that guy's 485 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 2: he's weak and he and then what do we tell 486 00:23:58,920 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: women that a weak. 487 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 3: Man can't protect them? Why? Because women need to be 488 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 3: protected from who from men? 489 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 2: So it goes back to it's like I have so 490 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,119 Speaker 2: much empathy and compassion especially for women here, because it's 491 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 2: not your fault. 492 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 3: You need a strong man to protect you from other men. 493 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 3: So the idea of vulnerability, when it comes into the equation, 494 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 3: it makes women feel unsafe in this strange way. And 495 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 3: so what I would ask is, like, read bell. 496 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 2: Hooks, Read Glenn and Doyle's book, Read Untamed about especially 497 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: her chapter I think It's Boys where she talks about it. 498 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 2: See if you can push past that initial response and 499 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 2: hold it for a moment, and then let's like not 500 00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 2: train our men like the Pavlov style to run away 501 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 2: from vulnerability. The second piece of this is it's not 502 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: just to snap your fingers and men can create safe 503 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 2: spaces for men. 504 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 3: But the only way it will start to work is. 505 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,439 Speaker 2: If there are super badass strong men who are willing 506 00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 2: to start to be vulnerable. Which is why I personally 507 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: believe if we were to like flip the idea of 508 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 2: these masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the 509 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 2: bravest man, sure, like, great, you trained, you go, you 510 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 2: run into a burning building and save people's lives. Awesome, 511 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 2: But can you run into the burning building of your 512 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 2: depression and share that with another man, I would argue 513 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 2: that the emotional bravery is true bravery. 514 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: You're talking about something that Berne Brown used to talk 515 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: a lot about in the beginning of Herself Too, is 516 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being the 517 00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: kind of person who will run into a burning and building, 518 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: and courage is the kind of person who will show 519 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: up with their whole heart. That's what you're talking about. 520 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: And I think that's really important because I mean that 521 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: last part you said about like women need men to 522 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: be manly, masculine and strong and all of that because 523 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: we need men to protect the whole cycles like we 524 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: need those men to protect us, but we need those 525 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: men to protect us because of the whole thing. And 526 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: the first yes, it's wild to me, which also, this 527 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite quotes that I've pulled from 528 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: your book. And I might not say exactly correct, but 529 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: you said something, okay, great, so it was in the 530 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: body of a chapter. It's my favorite chapter so far. 531 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: But you said something like looking strong is in a 532 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: way to be strong, but a way to avoid being weak. 533 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: And I think that that's kind of what you're talking 534 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 1: right here, Like the person that runs into a burning 535 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: building to save somebody. That person looks really freaking strong, 536 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: and maybe they are in some aspect, but like, what 537 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: are are you doing that to look like a man 538 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: because you feel like you have to because of xyz 539 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: or or or why are you even doing that? And 540 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: then in your life and your relationship and your job 541 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: and your whatever, are you able to show up? Are 542 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: you able to run into the burning building of the 543 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: conflict that you guys have exactly? 544 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 2: And I and let's just be mindful of course, because firefighters, 545 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: you know, please, officers you know, of military folks, that 546 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 2: is extreme bravery. It is and I don't want to 547 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,679 Speaker 2: say like one is more important than the other. But 548 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 2: what you find oftentimes is is these professions are professions, 549 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: and they're high risk professions. But we've been taught as 550 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: men and boys as a young age that those are 551 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,360 Speaker 2: the professions that equate to a certain masculine status. 552 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,000 Speaker 3: Like those are the heroes. 553 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 2: Right, So there's always this I think unmet need of 554 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 2: wanting to grow up and be and be seen as 555 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: that we're told to take physical risks. It hurts us 556 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 2: and it kills us, and it also is the thing 557 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,080 Speaker 2: that makes us brave because that young boys were taught 558 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: you're a boy, you're a man. Physical risks take them, 559 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: so you grow up and you become these these these professions, 560 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 2: these you know, responders, these heroes. But can we also 561 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: do that in our personal life, which is what you're saying, 562 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 2: and that cycle of like training men that this is 563 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 2: what it's this is what it means for you to 564 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: be a man, this is this is the type of job, 565 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 2: this is you know, it's like we have freaking calendars 566 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,680 Speaker 2: of firefighters because women like google at them because they're 567 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 2: sexy in uniform and they risk their lives and all 568 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: of these things. 569 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 3: But like, are they talking about their feelings? Are they depressed? 570 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 3: Are they what therapist's office are they in? 571 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 2: You know, look, there's just there's so much repressed anxiety 572 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,719 Speaker 2: and fear and frustration that so many of us men 573 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 2: are walking around with that we don't have an outlet 574 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 2: for so so it goes into our work, It ends 575 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: up as work addiction, It goes into us taking more 576 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: physical risks and we don't have any place to put it. 577 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: And you're helping kind of end that cycle. So I 578 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: do want to say thank you because I think that 579 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: when you were saying, like, we actually do need strong 580 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: men that are willing to take the risk to do this, 581 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: to show up because somebody has to start. Like somebody 582 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: has to start. And that brings me to my very 583 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: favorite quote of all time, and so Margaret me quote 584 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: and she said, never doubt that a small group of 585 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: committed citizens can change the world. In fact, it's the 586 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: only thing that ever has. And that's one of the 587 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: reasons I was like, I need to talk to you 588 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: because literally what you're doing, like you're starting with these 589 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk and then 590 00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: you're writing this book and it started with a lot 591 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: of what I'm hearing, a lot of women actually leaning 592 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: into the work you're doing. And then from that then 593 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: men are actually being invited in. And so you start 594 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: your one person who has started kind of like a 595 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: huge shift. And I don't know if it feels huge 596 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: to you, but it's huge, like it really is. 597 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,800 Speaker 3: Appreciate it. It's a I don't know. 598 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 2: I always try to go back to the one person, 599 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 2: the one man, And every day I'm getting a few 600 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: of these one men who are writing saying something or 601 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: saying that it shifts something you know, and I get 602 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 2: to keep having these moments every day where it's like 603 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: it is working, it is helping, it is making a difference. 604 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 3: Our society focuses so much. 605 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: On mass change, like mass impact, how many people. It's like, 606 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: we grow up right now, it's like, not enough to 607 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: affect one person, you have. 608 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 3: To affect millions or what are you doing with your life? 609 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 2: And that's not at all, especially as being raised in 610 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: the buy of faith, it's not at all Our view 611 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: all back to how to be a humble servant and 612 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: affect that one person. 613 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 3: So even in this world where. 614 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have millions of followers and all of these 615 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 2: types of things, it's about the one man because that 616 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 2: one man at any given point in time is interacting 617 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 2: with how many women on a daily basis, how many 618 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: other men? 619 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 3: How many you know? Does he have children? This is 620 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 3: how we change the world. You have to do that, 621 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 3: you have to So it's very it's very tricky, it's confusing. 622 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 3: I still struggle with it. 623 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 2: It's still hard for me to reach out to other 624 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 2: men because then when you get to a point when 625 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 2: you're known as that kind of person, you're like, shit. 626 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 3: You know, all these men look up to me. Now, 627 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 3: even in my. 628 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 2: Group of friends, it's like a how do I tell 629 00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: them that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all 630 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: of these things, you know, because we're never immune to 631 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 2: It's why I wrote the book as a student, as 632 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 2: a teacher, So it's all in us. It's my socialization 633 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 2: is in me. So I could be writing a book 634 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: and giving ted talks and talking about these things and 635 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: yet still struggling to call my friend if I'm struggling 636 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 2: with something, and that's just being human, Like, we don't 637 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 2: just reach the other side. It's a constant daily practice. 638 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: You're talking to a therapist who goes to therapy, So. 639 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 3: I get that therapist should. 640 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: I agree, But I get I that all that you're 641 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: saying is like, yeah, I struggle every day with stuff, 642 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: and I have to go get myself checked out. And 643 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: I have to make sure that I'm like staying in 644 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: line with what my beliefs are, and I have to 645 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 1: make sure that I am getting help and feedback because 646 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: as somebody who like you're in a helping profession now, 647 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: as somebody who's helping others, you've got to check yourself. 648 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: So I just want it to wrap all this up 649 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 1: once say thank you for all of what you're doing. 650 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: I will promise at one point I will finish the book, 651 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: but I really don't want to. Well, but the good 652 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: news is if I don't, you now have a podcast, 653 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: which is awesome. I listen to Matthew McConaughey's episode this 654 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 1: morning while I was getting ready, So that was really 655 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: really interesting and good. Yeah, but so many of those 656 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: episodes have been awesome. So if you guys that are 657 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: listening are hearing something, you're like, I need more of this, 658 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,120 Speaker 1: Like you've already heard me talk about his book, But 659 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: go get the book and listen to the Man Enough podcast. 660 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: And where else can they find and hear you? 661 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 3: Social media the love hate relationships I have with it, 662 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 3: But yeah, social media, But I think the Man of 663 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 3: Podcasts is a great It's a great place. Right now. 664 00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 2: You're gonna love this as a therapist. I just had 665 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 2: a deep conversation with my dad. 666 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 1: Oh well, just so you know, I already listened to it. 667 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: I listened to it last week. I think when it 668 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 1: came I don't know if it was when it came out. 669 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: I listened to it on road chip. 670 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:24,320 Speaker 3: It was yeah last week. 671 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And we're just we're trying to go there. My 672 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 2: wife's coming on, my wife. We just had my wife on, 673 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: She's coming on next week. We have some amazing, amazing folks. 674 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,959 Speaker 1: The conversation you had with your dad was honest, like 675 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: it was good, and what you have done is modeled 676 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people, especially when I'm 677 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: in therapy with them, I'm like, we're talking about how 678 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: to have some of those conversations that you had, and 679 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: it's so like people can't even imagine it. What do 680 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 1: you mean? I'm gonna be honest with my dad and 681 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: tell him how he hurt me, but also to say 682 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: thank you, Like what do you mean? And you're giving 683 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: like an example of what that can look like. And 684 00:32:58,480 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: I think that's awesome. 685 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: Need samples right now, and we just unfortunately have so 686 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I mean 687 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 2: there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and I 688 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 2: and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz calls 689 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: me on it. 690 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 3: You know, I have a female co host, and. 691 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 2: That's part of this process is we have to be 692 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 2: willing to make mistakes, and men don't like making mistakes, 693 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: especially publicly. 694 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 3: Or admitting we don't know the answer. 695 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 2: And a huge part of this and why I'm doing 696 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: it is just to show that, like we can stay 697 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 2: in the room. Like you can be told you're wrong, 698 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 2: and you could be hold you are sexist or CHAUVENI 699 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 2: stick and it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, 700 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that you're all bad. 701 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, that part, we can stay in the room. What 702 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: you just said, Like we can mess up and be 703 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: almost called out to an extent or approached or confronted 704 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 1: and we can still be good people. Like we can 705 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: stay in the room. 706 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 3: It's just canceled. 707 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 2: You know, it's not just over for you because you're Yeah, 708 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,480 Speaker 2: if you make a mistake, it's oh shit, I made 709 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: a mistake. 710 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 3: I didn't think of it that way. I'm sorry, Boom. 711 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 2: It's amazing, Right, we can be human beings and be 712 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: messy and messed up and still have the opportunity to 713 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 2: be friends or require So. 714 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 3: That's what we're working on. 715 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 2: And you know, I'm grateful for folks like you that 716 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 2: are doing this work, that are trying to get the 717 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 2: message out. And if you're a man listening to this, 718 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 2: just know that, or if you're a woman, listening to this, 719 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 2: and you want your man to listen to this, and 720 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 2: now you're a man listening to this, just know that 721 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: you have an ocean of depth in you and you 722 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 2: are so much more than what the world has put 723 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,279 Speaker 2: on you. And the feelings and thoughts and dreams and 724 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 2: sensitivities you have don't make you less of a man. 725 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 3: They make you more of a man because they make 726 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 3: you a human. And at the end of the. 727 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 2: Day, our job as men, I believe, is to figure 728 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,560 Speaker 2: out how to be the best human beings we possibly can. 729 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,480 Speaker 2: And that starts with like using these ideas of what 730 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 2: it means to be manly, to be masculine, and going 731 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 2: in and going deep and getting comfortable and the uncomfortable, 732 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 2: and exploring who we are as individuals and showing up 733 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,240 Speaker 2: and staying in the room. And I appreciate you listening. 734 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:08,359 Speaker 1: Okay, that was beautiful, So if you are anybody listening 735 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: to that, rewind that and listen to it again. That 736 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: was amazing. So we're going to end on that because 737 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,879 Speaker 1: that was a good way to kind of close it out. 738 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: So thank you for being here. And yeah, everybody listening, 739 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 1: you can follow us at at you need therapy podcast, 740 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,480 Speaker 1: Get the book, listen to the podcast Man Enough, Man 741 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: Enough Podcast, and thank you for being thank you. 742 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 3: We all need therapy.