WEBVTT - Do Aliens Speak Physics, with Andy Warner 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:13.360 Let's talk about fantasies. Scientific fantasies, of course, because every 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.400 scientist out there has got one a dream scenario in 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.480 which they discover something that shocks the world, or they 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:22.599 stumble across some new species or an ancient artifact. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:23.720 If you've been. 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.840 Listening to this podcast, then you can guess my scientific fantasy. It's, 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.800 of course, first contact. I want to meet the aliens. 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:35.479 But wait, you might think Daniel's no biologist. We know that, 0:00:35.640 --> 0:00:38.600 and he's admitted to having no nat for chemistry either. 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:43.360 So what's Daniel's scientific interest in aliens? Well, the reason 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:46.839 I got into physics was because I thought the topic 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:50.400 was bigger than biology or chemistry. It doesn't try to 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:53.280 solve just the puzzles of life here on Earth, which 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.960 might only be relevant to life on Earth. Physics tries 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:00.920 to understand the laws of the whole universe. Its questions 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:04.720 are so much bigger they literally span the whole cosmos. 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:07.600 How did the universe begin? What is it made out of? 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:12.319 So alien contact is my scientific fantasy because I long 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.080 believe that physics is something that should be cross planetary 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.080 and cross species. I believe that somewhere out there was 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.520 an alien Daniel working on particle physics, and I'd like 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.520 to meet him and to make a mental connection over 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.720 our common interest in the mysteries of the universe. Physicists 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:33.480 don't need any bigger egos, but it's quite a boost 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.040 to think that you're studying something that could be the 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:40.399 topic of a galactic science conference. But is that just 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.720 fantasy or is it on solid ground? Could it actually happen? 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.200 I just wrote a book exploring this juicy topic. The 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.520 book is called Do Aliens Speak Physics? And it's out now. 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.440 Please pick up a copy. Today's episode is just a 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:57.000 little taste of what the book dives into. Welcome to 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.960 Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Alien Universe. 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:13.799 Hello. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:17.000 I'm Kelly Wadersmith. I study parasites and space, and I 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:18.880 am so excited that I finally get to meet Andy 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:19.840 Warner on today's show. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:21.119 Hi. 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:21.840 I'm Daniel. 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.639 I'm a particle physicist, and I want to meet aliens 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:26.840 and talk to them about the nature of the universe 0:02:26.960 --> 0:02:29.720 or find out that they're bored by that question, either one. 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.560 I'm excited about it, Daniel. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:34.480 None of us are surprised to find out that you 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.639 want to meet aliens, so here's my question, since we 0:02:37.680 --> 0:02:42.000 are chatting with an amazing cartoonist today, do you have 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.440 any artistic skills at all? Where do you stand on 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:46.520 the art spectrum. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:48.760 I do do a lot of doodles. 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.399 Actually they're embarrassing, so I would never show them to anybody, 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.720 but I do enjoy doodling. I used to play this 0:02:53.840 --> 0:02:57.080 game with Hazel where she would pick a random object 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.000 and then we would both dry without looking at each 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:02.040 other's page, and then compare and you learn a lot 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.120 about like how people imagine things and how they portray things. 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.760 It's a lot of fun. And for this book, I 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:10.400 did a bunch of doodles. Sometimes you try to explain 0:03:10.480 --> 0:03:13.280 an idea and you need the visuals, and so I 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.840 would do what are kind of embarrassing basic drawings to 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:18.520 share with Andy, and then he would come back and like, oh, 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.760 you're talking about this, and he would do this incredible 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:24.320 sketch which really just captured all the ideas and conveyed 0:03:24.320 --> 0:03:26.520 them beautifully. So yeah, I'm a big fan of art. 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:27.959 I do a little bit of art, but it's all 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:31.120 private art that would never show to anybody except for 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:32.359 my close collaborators. 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.840 Excellent, my art skills are like, I don't even get 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.280 the proportions right on stick figures. I am awful. And 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.800 it was so embarrassing because I took parasitology and we 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:44.360 were supposed to draw what we saw underneath the microscope 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.560 and that was a big part of our grade. And 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:50.320 all of my parasites were just blobs. This blob has 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.280 a uterus over here that I put an arrow towards, 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:55.040 and like, you just have to believe it was there. 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.680 And then it got worse because I married an artist 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.120 and at one point he was like, well, let me 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:00.880 teach you how to draw, and I realized that I 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.680 had just decided, well, I don't need to know anything 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:07.760 because this is your job, right and I'm offloading this 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:08.280 to you. 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:11.680 And so, uh, I got the fish stuff covered, you 0:04:11.800 --> 0:04:13.080 got the drawing stuff covered. 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:18.160 That's right, equal distribution of labor. But luckily you and 0:04:18.200 --> 0:04:20.080 I found people to work with who are good artists. 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.400 Absolutely, yes, it's a joy to collaborate with artists, isn't it? 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:25.560 It is? It really is. I mean, especially because I 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.200 think you and I really like to dig deep into 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.600 topics and really get into the details, and it's hard 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:34.080 for people to follow you on that journey sometimes and 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.440 partly it's hard for them to follow, you know, one 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:39.520 because it's complicated material. But two sometimes it just gets 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:42.480 kind of exhausting, Yeah, to be like trying to understand 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:45.080 complicated topics for too long. And so it's nice one 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:48.160 to have an illustration that clearly shows it in case 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:50.320 you're not imagining it right in your head. And two 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:52.279 to give you a second to laugh and be like 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.880 huh okay. And you know, if you get the joke 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:56.920 because you got the science, that feels good too. It's 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.200 like a nice payoff, you know. And then also like 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.160 I love that our will show me that they're you know, 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:03.760 seeing things in a different way than I am, and 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.600 it makes me think about things differently. And anyway, it's 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:07.160 a lot of fun. 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.479 Yeah, And it's one reason why like this podcast is 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.240 fun because it's not just like one person talking about science. 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.279 It's a conversation and you help me explain the physics, 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:17.840 then I help you explain the biology, and you know, 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.239 there's a back and forth there. And in these books 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:22.200 where you have like a scientist and a cartoonist, there's 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.120 also a back and forth between the dialogue, the written 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.039 word and the cartoons. Right, they make fun of each other, 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.560 they refer to each other, and you're right, that's much 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.440 more interesting and relaxing because you need those little breaks, 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.400 you need to back and forth. So it just doesn't 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:36.800 seem like such a monologue. 0:05:36.920 --> 0:05:37.120 Yeah. 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:39.120 Absolutely, Well, today we're going to hear a little bit 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.720 more about this process. Andy's going to describe what it 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:43.080 was like, so we don't just have to take your 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:46.240 word for it, and we'll hear what it's like for 0:05:46.279 --> 0:05:49.240 the poor cartoonists working with us. And so today we're 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.360 talking about your book. Do aliens speak physics? That's right, 0:05:53.480 --> 0:05:55.400 the greatest book ever, sure to be a New York 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.400 Times bestseller, now available in all finebal stores. And so 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.880 we we asked our audience to get this conversation started. 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:07.600 Can we use physics to communicate with aliens? And let's 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.400 see what our audience thinks. Given that Daniel talks about 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:15.320 this all the time and we always love hearing about it. 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.200 Physics is the basis of absolutely everything. 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.719 We can't have a conversation just between two people without physics. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:25.599 So absolutely physics is the only way we could communicate 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:29.560 with aliens. Physics and math are probably the most universal languages, 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:30.720 so I would. 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.600 Say probably yes. I think that if we make an 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:38.560 experiment where the outcome is different from what the aliens expect, 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:39.960 that would be interesting. 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:42.640 What else would you like to use? Magic? 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.520 Or verse chemistry, general relativity, and the speed of light 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.720 in our conversations are more likely pen pal exchanges over 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:52.040 centuries than a phone call. 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.719 I'm actually of the mind that we probably never will 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:58.479 encounter aliens. 0:06:58.720 --> 0:07:02.000 I'm pretty sure if we contact alliance, physics will be 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.160 involved in some way or another. And doun say I 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:04.680 couldn't be. 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:07.560 I would think so because the only thing I can 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:12.160 think of is using the bands of the electro magnetic 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:18.200 spectrum to encode or entangle to send out communications. 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:20.600 I don't know if we can use physics to talk 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.320 to aliens, but if you figure it out, please let 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.800 me know, because I'm pretty sure my stepmother is an 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:30.000 alien and she is impossible to communicate with. 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:35.040 Yes, because there must be some values or firm lass 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:41.480 which are universal and we could base a recommunication on that. 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:47.480 Communication requires some kind of shared experience or viewpoint, and 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.240 I think physics could provide that. Yeah, because the distances 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:55.800 are so great that they exceed human lifetimes. Can we 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:57.520 even use physicists. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.640 I think we can and probably should. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.240 We can depict things like one thing and another thing 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.520 equals to things numerically, and then we can display the 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.320 pytheg orient theorem once. 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.600 We get the units of measurement figured out. Yeah, using 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:11.800 physics to talk to the aliens would probably work. It's 0:08:11.840 --> 0:08:14.480 the one coming thing that we can discuss. This is 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:16.520 how fast light goes, and then that gives us their 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:18.840 units of measurement, and we figured it all out and 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.040 everything's wonderful. I'd rather a physicist was doing the talking 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.680 rather than a politician, but it's obvious that the best 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.080 scenario of the humanity would be to let me moderate. 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.560 I think so. In fact, I think we're using basic 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:36.520 physics on the voyager probes the records that will allow 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:40.280 us to know and not communicate directly, but at least 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:44.520 give an alien civilization a starting point on how to 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:45.800 communicate with us. 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.360 As always amazing answers, I had a good laugh at 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:52.240 the step mom comments. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:54.760 And the chemistry joke of course, and the chemistry. 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.120 Joke of course. Yep. But this is a question you 0:08:57.200 --> 0:09:02.280 have thought about a lot, and your co author Andy 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.839 has thought about a lot. So maybe we should just 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:07.440 jump right in and hear more about it. 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:08.080 Okay. 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:10.960 So then it's my absolute pleasure to welcome my co 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:15.079 author and collaborator and new favorite cartoonist to the podcast, 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:18.480 Andy Warner. Andy is a non fiction cartoonist. He's the 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.040 author of the New York Times best selling and hilarious 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.679 book Brief Histories of Everyday Objects. 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:24.400 He was a. 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.880 Contributing editor at the NIB and teaches cartooning at the 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.480 California College of the Arts at Stanford and at the 0:09:29.520 --> 0:09:32.960 Animation Workshop in Denmark. He works in South Berkley and 0:09:33.120 --> 0:09:34.720 comes from the sea. 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:36.920 What does that mean, Andy, What does it mean to 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:37.680 come from the sea? 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:40.080 Well, I actually I grew up on a series of 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:46.240 small islands, first sam Blast and Panama, then Saint Croix 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.480 and the US Virgin Islands. That's where my sister was born, 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.000 and then goes to spend a lot of time in Corsica. 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.640 My dad is a marine biologist or was. He's retired now, 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:59.000 and he studied sex changing fish while I was growing up. 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:03.800 So for a summer job, sometimes I would be, you know, 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.160 floating above a reef with a snorkel, counting off how 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.079 many blue head wrasts there were, and there was always 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:14.560 tubs out back where he and various postdocs were removing 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:18.240 their go nads. It was a fun childhood. 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:18.600 Yeah. 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:20.680 I have two siblings and so we kind of grew 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.160 up running around on these islands. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:25.719 I was a fish person when I was a baby scientist, 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.600 and I love fish so much and blue headed rass. 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.679 I read all about sex changing and what we know 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.400 about the mechanisms behind that, and your childhood sounds absolutely 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:35.000 amazing to me. 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:37.600 So I didn't even need to talk to you about 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:38.959 sneaker males. You already know the. 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:40.720 Drill, totally know about sneaker mails. 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.520 Nice, that's my party story, Like, let me tell you 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:45.440 about sneaker males. 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:46.120 Awesome. 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:47.600 I mean it does sound like a lot of fun. 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:49.319 But I noticed, Andy, but you didn't grow up to 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.400 become a marine biologist. What does that say about your experience? 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:52.800 Yeah? 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:55.560 Much the less sorrow of my dad. He definitely was 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:58.680 like he'll be the one. But you know what it 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:01.320 did teach me is how to talk to scientists, because 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:03.920 I grew up with him with all the people who 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:08.280 was working with his friends, my parents' friends in these 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:10.920 you know, somewhat isolated environments where there weren't a lot 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.199 of other kids around, and so in the absence of that, 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.440 I would talk to these grown ups. And talking to 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:18.520 scientists is a really interesting thing because they are very 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.840 fascinated by things, and so it taught me how to 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:24.800 be interested in things that maybe I'm not specialized in, 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.080 absorb their fascination, get fascinated by it in a similar way. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:31.240 And then you know, you go and swim and you 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:33.079 see these fishs that they were talking to you about, 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.959 and it makes the science very real. And so, you know, 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:38.120 I ended up making a lot of comics about science. 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.520 I'm a nonfiction cartoonist and I do history, but I 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.679 also do science interpretation. And I like to think, or 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.760 at least I like to tell my dad that his 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:49.439 influences there. 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.680 Well, so how did you learn to translate scientists? Because 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:55.760 you're right with like, we as a group get really 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.959 excited about stuff, but we're not always really good at 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:01.600 explaining that to other people. You know, we like jump 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.160 right to the mechanisms and we're talking about goodnetotrope and 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.120 releasing hormone or something instead of like, yeah, how did 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.520 you learn to communicate science to nonscientists? 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:14.000 It's all about the asking questions, right, Like, these people 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:17.520 know things. It's not just somebody at a party blathering 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.160 on about something that they know nothing about. These are 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.079 really specialists that have devoted their lives to you know, 0:12:23.200 --> 0:12:26.280 maybe it's somewhat esoteric knowledge to like the general public, 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.760 but like they can break it down into its little parts. 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:31.480 And so if you just sit there with somebody and 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:33.640 you kind of probe them and you question them, and 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:36.040 if you don't understand something, that's what you ask about. 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.840 Now that leads you into a new direction. It's that 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.240 technique that really gets me a lot of places is 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:44.840 being nice and interested in what people are talking about 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.600 and then asking them questions about it, you know, not 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:51.680 just like absorbing it, because that also demonstrates to them 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.400 that you're actually interested. A lot of people who have 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.800 specialized have this experience where they talk about what they 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:00.000 do to somebody whose eyes glaze over and they really 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.280 part way through, oh I've lost this person, and so 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.760 just not being that person they've lost being that person 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.599 that's like, oh no, like tell me more. It's you know, 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:10.880 it takes you along for the ride with them, and 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:13.079 that's been a really fun part of my entire career. 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.400 I mean, even with Daniel. Daniel was explaining a ton 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.439 of stuff, and as we put this book together, it's 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:21.680 one of my favorite parts about being the kind of 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:22.640 cartoonists that I am. 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.040 Frankly, I love how you talk about talking to scientists 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:27.200 the way we think about talking to aliens, you know, 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:30.720 as if scientists are the aliens. And so you're saying 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:32.720 that this whole time we've been writing a book about 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.120 talking to aliens, You've been practicing on me this whole time. 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:40.160 That's awesome, absolutely. 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.560 Firsthand knowledge. It is really interesting because scientists are often 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.160 used to talking with each other and this kind of 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.520 specialized language develops, and so as a layperson, like I'm 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:55.000 sort of a professional layperson in a lot of ways, 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.080 Like I talk to people and I get them to 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.679 talk to me about what they're interested in and then 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:03.959 breaking down And yes, Daniel, you're absolutely on the examination. 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.120 So I'm interested in how this collaboration came about. And 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:11.880 so maybe Daniel, So I know Daniel is the one 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.280 who initially had the idea. So maybe Daniel, you can 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.720 tell me about how you came up with this idea initially, 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.000 and then we can talk about what it was like collaborating. 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.240 Yeah, so you know, I'm of course interested in physics 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:24.040 and like how does the universe work and all that 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:26.360 kind of stuff, But anybody who listens to the pod 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.080 knows that I'm also really interested in philosophy, and not 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:33.640 like weird abstract philosophy, but the context of the physics questions, 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.920 like what does it mean that the universe is made 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.400 of strings or springs or sprayings or whatever it's actually. 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:39.560 Made out of. 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.560 You know, to me, the reason physics is exciting is 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.880 because of the philosophical implications of what we've learned. Space 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.760 is curvy or it's not or whatever. The universe is 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:52.320 infinite or it's finite. All those things have meaning. But 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:54.720 you know, they have meaning if you think you're discovering 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.760 the truth. They have less meaning if you think, hm, 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.120 this is just our description of the universe, and maybe 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.360 it's telling us just about ourselves and not the universe. 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.040 I wanted to write a book about that by figuring out, 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:09.560 you know, is physics the map or is it the 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.720 territory itself? Also because a lot of physicists deeply believe 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.200 that it's the territory and can't accept the concept that 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.240 it's the map, and I was a little bit more skeptical. 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:21.560 So I pitched this idea for a book to my 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.400 fourteen year old at the time, and he was like, 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.360 m boring, come on, I would never read that book. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:29.440 I know. I was totally crushed. 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.960 Honestly, I was like, this is my passion project. But 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.760 I also really respected his honesty. 0:15:36.040 --> 0:15:37.800 No better editor than a fourteen year old. 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.360 Yeah, I know, right exactly. Your kids will make you humble. 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:43.720 But then I thought, well, how can I make this 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:46.120 more fun? Well, maybe it's more fun if you think 0:15:46.120 --> 0:15:46.880 about why. 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.120 It matters, you know, like, does it matter at all? 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:52.400 Is it only of interest to philosophical interested people who 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.800 smoke banana peels on the roof? And I thought, well, 0:15:54.800 --> 0:15:58.560 it matters if our description is human or if it's universal, 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.240 if somebody else has a different description, and like who 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:04.880 else might have a different description, Well, you know, alien scientists. 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.480 And so it was fun to imagine what might happen 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:09.720 when aliens arrive and we get to talk to their 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:13.280 scientists and learn like, oh, are we describing the universe 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.400 or is it just our description of. 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:16.480 Our experience of it? 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:18.960 And I went back to my fourteen year old and 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:20.840 I was on pins and needles, and he was like, oh, yeah, 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.680 I would read that book, and so boom, I was 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:24.800 off to the races. 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:26.320 Has he read the whole book? 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:28.520 He has read the book? 0:16:28.560 --> 0:16:30.840 Actually, yeah, I mean he and my daughter read it 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:32.400 and they both contributed some jokes. 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.560 So that's awesome. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:37.680 Yeah, I know Katrina has not yet read the book 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:41.680 though I know, yes, she's on spouse probation for that. 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.200 But you know, I also wanted a book that was 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.760 really accessible, and you know, I know a lot about physics, 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:51.240 and you guys know, the translating physics to what everybody 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:54.000 else out there can understand is not always easy, especially 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.600 when you're really close to the topic, and it's sometimes 0:16:56.640 --> 0:16:59.120 hard for me to remember, like which of these concepts 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:02.040 are intuitive, ones are really a struggle to get over, 0:17:02.080 --> 0:17:05.040 and what is the journey to really incorporating them. So 0:17:05.080 --> 0:17:07.119 it's important to me to work with somebody who was 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:09.800 good at translating ideas, who knew how to speak to 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.399 aliens or physicists or alien physicists. And so I was 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:15.600 a big fan of Andy's work. I knew about it already. 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.320 I'd read his book, I followed his comics and so 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.639 I just cold emailed him to see if he was 0:17:20.960 --> 0:17:22.200 up for this kind of collaboration. 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.320 And so, what did you think, Andy, when Daniel pitch 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.240 this alien idea. Were you like, oh my gosh, a 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.680 crackpot has sent me an email, or were you like, what, 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:29.679 this is a great idea. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.840 Well, of course I was into it from the immediate 0:17:32.920 --> 0:17:36.919 second I popped up in my email inbox. I'm like, hello, 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.160 I'm a physicist and I want to write a book 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.720 about aliens with you. It's a dream. I'm a cartoonist. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.800 As long as I was on like a fishing scam, 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:46.600 I was on board. 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.000 Oh it still could be, It still could be, It still. 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:51.680 Could It's really elaborate. 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:52.880 Exactly, I do the long con. 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:56.720 Yeah, you need those bank account details for the book tour. 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:02.000 This is pretty standard in the industry. That's what I'm talking. 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:03.760 Yeah, Yeah, that's what I tell my husband. 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.440 Also, yeah, exactly, a very elaborate fishing scam bound. 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:09.280 That's right. Yes, I'm committed. 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:13.560 So yeah, I responded as quick as I could before 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:17.240 I emailed some other cartoonists, and I said, yes, of course, 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.480 this sounds really interesting. Let's get on the horn and 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.240 talk more about it, and so I think we did 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:27.520 a zoom meet up and just kind of discussed back 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:30.040 and forth, and it immediately became apparent to me that, 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.560 you know, this wasn't just a guy who was interested 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:37.600 in aliens and knew some stuff about physics, which obviously 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:40.760 Daniel is, but you know, he was approaching this project 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.440 using it as like a framing device, as a way 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:47.560 to look at all these really interesting, really profound, sometimes 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:51.520 frankly unsettling questions that are just out there in the 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:54.760 air around us, and if you care to look at them, 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.600 you can have a pretty crazy time digging deep into them. 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:01.359 It's just most of the time you choose to focus 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:04.600 on other things. And this book really digs into the 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.159 fundamental pieces of how science came to be what we 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:10.800 consider science, the paths of it. I mean, one of 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.280 the things I love that Daniel brought to this with 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.880