Speaker 1: Bateman goes in and silence and I'm like that sucks,
Speaker 1: you know. He walks out. He's like verbatim, now I
Speaker 1: won't be getting that role. And he sits beside me
Speaker 1: the two forlorn guys. Third guy goes in and it's deafening.
Speaker 1: The laughter is deafening. Like they just he's the funniest
Speaker 1: guy ever, you know what I mean. And they poke
Speaker 1: the heads out and they look at Jason and like
Speaker 1: you guys can go, you know, like, okay, thank you.
Speaker 2: Hi.
Speaker 1: My name is Tom Cavanaugh, and Brian is an equal
Speaker 1: opportunity employer because he's hired me, a Canadian, to be
Speaker 1: on his podcast. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2: Hello everybody, and welcome back. Thank you for joining us
Speaker 2: on a very special episode of Off the Beat. He's
Speaker 2: gonna be a wild and bumpy ride. I can assure
Speaker 2: you that I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. But more importantly,
Speaker 2: my guest today is Well, he's very, very impressive. Some
Speaker 2: might even say he's a superhero. Okay, well not a superhero,
Speaker 2: but a super villain. That's right with me today is
Speaker 2: The Flashes. Tom Cavanaugh aka Sherlock Wells aka Reverse Flash
Speaker 2: aka Harrison wells, Tom is well, he's amazing. He is
Speaker 2: so amazing that he plays multiple versions of his character
Speaker 2: on the Flash. Now. I don't even know what the
Speaker 2: alter egos of Kevin Malone would look like, but hey,
Speaker 2: I guess, I guess I'll have to ask Tom today.
Speaker 2: He's going to get into all of it, from his
Speaker 2: early days working in Canada, to joining the cast of
Speaker 2: Ed with our old friend Julie Bowen, to starring on Broadway,
Speaker 2: to his new game show. Hey, Yahoo, man, he can
Speaker 2: he can do it all. He can do it all,
Speaker 2: he can play it all, and he can make me laugh.
Speaker 2: Here we go. Everybody, buckle up, Tom Kavanaugh, Bubble and Squeak.
Speaker 2: I love it. Bubble and Squeak.
Speaker 1: I know.
Speaker 2: Bubble and Squeaker Cook.
Speaker 3: Get every moment lift over from the nine before.
Speaker 2: Hi, Tom, Hey, how are you?
Speaker 1: How's the guy?
Speaker 2: I mean, the guy's okay today? How how's the guy?
Speaker 1: He's good today?
Speaker 2: He's good.
Speaker 1: I'm not complaining.
Speaker 2: Oh that's good. Nobody will care anyway, Nobody. They don't care.
Speaker 1: They say they care if it is advantageous to their positioning,
Speaker 1: but they don't really care.
Speaker 2: No, they don't care at all. Why would they care.
Speaker 1: They well they care because you're famous, Brian. But that's
Speaker 1: just again, that's just that's just trying to that's their
Speaker 1: own agenda. They're advancing their position. You know.
Speaker 2: Well that makes some sense for them, right.
Speaker 1: So it's like me and Obama. It's the same thing
Speaker 1: that everybody they they don't want me, they want to
Speaker 1: talk to the president. It's the same I get you
Speaker 1: get used to you know how it is.
Speaker 2: I get it. No, I totally get it.
Speaker 1: Align yourself with the president and everybody wants a crash
Speaker 1: on your count that's how that goes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, exactly. By the way, can we get him
Speaker 2: on next week?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Look, I'm just gonna I'll talk to I'll talk
Speaker 1: to be okay. You know, like he's one of those
Speaker 1: guys he's gonna say yes to everything, okay, And then
Speaker 1: his people are going to contact you. They're gonna be
Speaker 1: like Barrock loves your podcast. Like you'll get him on,
Speaker 1: for sure, you'll get him on. Yeah, But does it happen?
Speaker 1: Does it happen next week? I don't know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe maybe not.
Speaker 1: Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I'm not saying no,
Speaker 1: I'm going to put in a good word, but does
Speaker 1: it happen next week? No guarantee.
Speaker 2: I mean, look, I have seen a letter that he
Speaker 2: wrote that says Thursday night is the office nights at
Speaker 2: the White House. Well I've I've seen the note.
Speaker 1: Right, Well then I feel like I feel that I
Speaker 1: feel next week is a shoe in. Something must have
Speaker 1: slipped through the tracks for him to not have done
Speaker 1: it already.
Speaker 2: I know, or he hasn't been invited yet. Maybe we
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a simple as that, maybe that should happen.
Speaker 1: He's a wiling way. He's like twiddling his thumbs, biting
Speaker 1: his time, just kind of like not trying to be
Speaker 1: a dick about it, Like sure those guys will.
Speaker 2: Give me an invitement some point in time.
Speaker 1: I know, like he's basically how I was up until today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, now time and now it's here, and now it's here.
Speaker 2: Here we are actually we're basically blood brothers. That's the
Speaker 2: wrong term, but I'm not going to use the other one.
Speaker 2: Julie Bowen, I was Julie Bowen's on screen love interest
Speaker 2: right immediately following You done.
Speaker 1: And she was very clear, she was very clear to
Speaker 1: me that I was a rung on a ladder. She
Speaker 1: was very upfront about it, because if you know Julie,
Speaker 1: you know she's honest. She's like, I'm going places.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it's going to be.
Speaker 1: You, Brian, and then if I have a shot at it,
Speaker 1: Tiberell and so.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 1: I just respect the honesty, right, Like she's like a
Speaker 1: gal's got to start somewhere. Nice to meet you. I'm
Speaker 1: Julie Bowen, ivy league educated, swear like a sailor, smart
Speaker 1: as they come, swip snap.
Speaker 2: Yeah and then see you later. Yeah that is that
Speaker 2: is so true. Swear It's like a sailor but super smart. Yeah,
Speaker 2: she's like a whole bunch of things and delightful. All right,
Speaker 2: enough about Barack and Julie Bowen. You famously, I would say,
Speaker 2: famously grew up.
Speaker 1: No matter what you say next, it's not going to
Speaker 1: be true. Yeah, famously you proceed Tom Cavanaugh and then
Speaker 1: famously it's just like all you're out like you're across
Speaker 1: a big X. Grew up in Canada, Sure I did,
Speaker 1: but not famously.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I knew that
Speaker 2: before I actually researched. I feel like, oh, yeah, that's.
Speaker 1: Because that's because you know, Julie and she's like, you
Speaker 1: know what, Canadians are good for stepping the stones. I'm
Speaker 1: sure that's how that came up in your head. You're like,
Speaker 1: I guess people know that about it. Like, no, no,
Speaker 1: you're the guy that followed the guy.
Speaker 2: You grew up in Canada but then Ghana. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: you how much time did you spend there?
Speaker 1: Well, I just got to say I want to congratulate
Speaker 1: you on doing some vestige of homework because, by God,
Speaker 1: like you've got enough stuff going on in your day,
Speaker 1: you don't have to look up.
Speaker 2: I've got pages.
Speaker 1: Okay, hey, we don't need that, my friend. First off,
Speaker 1: we've got pages. Your viewer slash listeners don't need anything.
Speaker 1: Any information on me is not going to further them.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, I spent some time in Africa, so
Speaker 1: what you know? But yeah I did. Let's get it
Speaker 1: out of the way. Yes you did. My parents are teachers.
Speaker 1: We were in Africa. We grew up without film and
Speaker 1: television and any of the modern stuff that the current
Speaker 1: society has. When I can say from my own experience,
Speaker 1: tremendous way to grow up. And then we moved back
Speaker 1: to North America for like high school years, basically, and
Speaker 1: we had to learn to swear and play organized sports
Speaker 1: and that worked out just fine.
Speaker 2: You say, it's a fantastic way to grow up. Why
Speaker 2: was it fantastic? How did it shape you?
Speaker 1: Well, I have no basis of comparison.
Speaker 2: Well, that's all right, fair, right, So I.
Speaker 1: Don't really know, but I look at I don't consider
Speaker 1: social media to be healthy, and this was like the
Speaker 1: precursor to some of that was just whatever we had
Speaker 1: as youngsters growing up in the eighteen hundreds, and so
Speaker 1: we basically ran around raiding coconut farms and chasing snakes
Speaker 1: and inventing things mentally. I think one of the reasons
Speaker 1: I am an actor is because your imagination was everything.
Speaker 1: Like you just had to either if you were going
Speaker 1: to have a good day, you also had to have
Speaker 1: a good imagination. There was no other stimuli really, I
Speaker 1: mean apart from the aesthetic beauty of the dark continent.
Speaker 1: So we you know, we were always were making up games.
Speaker 1: We're playing games and I guess still doing it today, right.
Speaker 2: My sister and I were just talking about riding big
Speaker 2: wheels through the woods like fast downhill, playing dukes of hazard.
Speaker 2: When I was a kid like that was what we
Speaker 2: were doing and playing and embodying the roles. Obviously you're
Speaker 2: talking about stuff like that. Were you also performing at
Speaker 2: all in front of people? Was that a part of
Speaker 2: the culture there in Ghana?
Speaker 1: Or I would say not, No, I assume whoever. You know,
Speaker 1: we had friends that we would just run around and
Speaker 1: you know, like I say, do things, and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, like everybody was kind of like, you know,
Speaker 1: you're you're whatever, you're six, seven, eight years old, nine
Speaker 1: years old, you're showing off, you're doing whatever the thing is.
Speaker 1: So is it performing? I guess it is, you know,
Speaker 1: but there's no organized Hey, we're doing a school play
Speaker 1: kind of thing.
Speaker 2: Hell, I think we did.
Speaker 1: I think I think we did the King and I
Speaker 1: but you know, like it's an outdoor theater. I remember
Speaker 1: vividly the parents because you know, imagine being a parent
Speaker 1: and not being able to provide any kind of pageantry,
Speaker 1: you know, if you've got to if people are going
Speaker 1: to take their kids whatever the latest, you know, like
Speaker 1: Pixar releases, that's an event, right or this thing was
Speaker 1: coming out and we had zero none of that, you know.
Speaker 1: So if you think about the amount of time that
Speaker 1: today's youth in many ways necessarily so spent time in
Speaker 1: front of a screen. You know, it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: stunning to think about an existence where nothing like that
Speaker 1: was an option. And so what do you do with
Speaker 1: your time? In Africa? It was too hot to have
Speaker 1: school in the afternoon, so we had school from a
Speaker 1: thirty to twelve thirty and then in the afternoon, what
Speaker 1: were you going to do? So it was books, books, books, books,
Speaker 1: and play play, play play and imagination, imagination, imagination. But
Speaker 1: I do remember the adults deciding that, you know, they
Speaker 1: needed to offer the kids something. And back in the
Speaker 1: day there was stuff like the carober Neet Variety Show,
Speaker 1: and so they sort of did a mimicked version of
Speaker 1: something like that, where you know, like Sonny and Cher
Speaker 1: would come up and sing and then there would be
Speaker 1: a comment bit, and then there'd be a musical bit, right,
Speaker 1: you know, and the kids we're outdoors and on front
Speaker 1: of this like stage, watching these you know, amateur performers.
Speaker 1: But I remember as a child sitting there, going, this
Speaker 1: is incredible. You know, all the lights and its darken
Speaker 1: thing and the palm trees and the stars. You're like this,
Speaker 1: this is amazing. I have no idea if that had
Speaker 1: any other kind of like effect on me. But under
Speaker 1: those circumstances, it was kind of amazing to see performance
Speaker 1: up in front of you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about music? Are you singing? Are you making
Speaker 2: up songs? Are you performing songs?
Speaker 1: Are you My mother is a music teacher, so yeah,
Speaker 1: all the time. And she went she went back to Africa.
Speaker 1: When there's five children, they all we're all like university age.
Speaker 1: And she went back for another three years and again
Speaker 1: was heavily involved in the music and watching the influence
Speaker 1: of a small town Canadian woman, you know, like take
Speaker 1: the music that she knew and then like have a
Speaker 1: mishmash of all the African culture music that she was
Speaker 1: exposed to, and putting on those types of performances. Very
Speaker 1: very cool. So the music was, you know, from as
Speaker 1: long back as I can remember, always always in the house,
Speaker 1: Like everybody in the family plays instruments, everybody sings, everybody,
Speaker 1: everybody performs. When they moved back to North America, my
Speaker 1: mother was ahead of choir and she was doing community
Speaker 1: theater and the head of like the music acts and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So it was it was always around.
Speaker 1: And I got my start. I don't know about you, Like,
Speaker 1: did you I I got my start doing musicals.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's partly why I'm asking. Yeah, I mean where
Speaker 2: it was. Did you believe that that's what you were
Speaker 2: going to do? Musical, musical theater, singing?
Speaker 1: How how many musicals have you done?
Speaker 2: Talk singing? There's nobody better, there's nobody better. You need,
Speaker 2: you need general notes surrounded by rhythm with a hint
Speaker 2: of comedy. I'm your man. Reg Harrison Rex Harris had
Speaker 2: nothing on me, not nothing but a real, real singing.
Speaker 2: I mean I did it when I was a kid.
Speaker 2: I was in the choir, and then I was in
Speaker 2: the special choir and had the solos and stuff. It's
Speaker 2: not pretty, I mean for me, and then I just
Speaker 2: I just started, you know, once I graduated from school
Speaker 2: and became and really moving into college and really studying,
Speaker 2: the music went away. It just yeah, I mean I
Speaker 2: think I knew in my soul that was not going
Speaker 2: to be my path.
Speaker 1: Got unlike you, but you could you could always Like
Speaker 1: that's the whole thing. It's like, it's funny that you
Speaker 1: say that, like, and I know you're kind of like
Speaker 1: semi tongue in cheek about it, but truly like my
Speaker 1: experience with the musicals has been you want to have
Speaker 1: somebody who can perform and you know, tell tell the story.
Speaker 1: I think the audience is nowhere near caught up in
Speaker 1: the snobbery of like how great is a voice here?
Speaker 1: Let me give you a perfect example. Has Alan coming
Speaker 1: done your podcast yet?
Speaker 2: No? But I but I have to say, I wasn't
Speaker 2: like one of those like, oh, musicals are dumb, like
Speaker 2: musical snobbery. It wasn't that like.
Speaker 1: The way you might not know this, but like Julie Bowen, right,
Speaker 1: Julie Bonen was like, I went to see the musical.
Speaker 1: You know, we shot a show we did together in
Speaker 1: New York. I'd go see a music with her. Her
Speaker 1: fingernails would dig into my into my thighs as people
Speaker 1: began as they broke into song, She's like, I don't
Speaker 1: understand why they break into song. It never works. I
Speaker 1: hate it when I cringe when they break into I
Speaker 1: feel so embarrassed for them when they break into song.
Speaker 2: I wasn't there, but I just I just kind of
Speaker 2: had stopped, you know, in my trips to New York
Speaker 2: or whatever it was, it was all more straight theater.
Speaker 2: But I saw Alan coming very early on in in Cabaret, and.
Speaker 1: This is what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2: It was transformative.
Speaker 1: He's spectacular, and he's spectacular. This is the whole thing.
Speaker 1: So I've worked them, you know, and now and again
Speaker 1: he I defy you to go, is he a good
Speaker 1: or a bad singer? Alan's so honest and abrupt, and
Speaker 1: you know, he's just so such a powerful persona. I
Speaker 1: think he's spectacular, but I do know it's all performance,
Speaker 1: Like he embodies whatever story he's telling in that song,
Speaker 1: and it's got nothing to do with like quality of
Speaker 1: voice or whatever the thing is. It gets somebody, you know,
Speaker 1: acclaimed as a singer, and it's interesting to watch somebody
Speaker 1: who can do that where you're just like if you're
Speaker 1: a lead on Broadway and nobody's sniping at your singing
Speaker 1: qualities because you're telling the story and he's you know,
Speaker 1: Cabaret is a perfect example. Spectacular in Cabaret, like just untouchable,
Speaker 1: you know. And I did that play twenty years prior
Speaker 1: to that, and some some of the Broadway plays that
Speaker 1: I've done, I know for a fact, and everybody who's
Speaker 1: in the company can back me up. I'm the worst
Speaker 1: singer on the stage, always like there's nobody poorer than me,
Speaker 1: and you know, people, that's not self deprecating, that's not modest,
Speaker 1: that's just plain facts. Son. And if you were to
Speaker 1: liign people up and go who's the worst, Yeah, Tom,
Speaker 1: Tom's the worst. He's clearly the worst, you know. And
Speaker 1: yet like you get cast because I can tell, hopefully,
Speaker 1: I'm telling a story. And that's why, you know, to
Speaker 1: say Alan Cummings, like he's telling a story, You're wrapped,
Speaker 1: you're paying attention. He's adding, like you said, when you're
Speaker 1: talking about yourself, you want a bit of humor, whether
Speaker 1: you didn't think there was going to be humor, he
Speaker 1: can do that. We can do that, And suddenly people
Speaker 1: are like they're accepting. They're not like, let me see
Speaker 1: your card carrying membership of your high seat. Don't have it,
Speaker 1: you know, like that's not it's not part of it.
Speaker 1: And that was my experience for a decade. The only
Speaker 1: other thing about that is when you're making your living
Speaker 1: in musical theater, there's constant trauma at the fact that
Speaker 1: you suck. So here's the story I don't think I've
Speaker 1: ever told, not even my own podcast, by the way,
Speaker 1: Mates Mike and Tommy. It' snaxt. So I was auditioning
Speaker 1: for the out of town thing of this thing was
Speaker 1: going to Broadway. Philip Rose, a kind of acclaimed New
Speaker 1: York City director, and I had to do an acting
Speaker 1: scene with the Venerable John Cullum where I asked for
Speaker 1: his daughter's hand in marriage. It was a five page scene,
Speaker 1: as they write in theater, and I was like, if
Speaker 1: I can get to that, we're going to be okay.
Speaker 1: But you got to sing right, And so I practiced
Speaker 1: my song. And by this time, I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: a good ten years or so into the career musical theater,
Speaker 1: and I was like, I knew that. Don't come in
Speaker 1: and sing old Man River. So I found this thing
Speaker 1: by this guy, Bernard Cribbins, who wrote a song called
Speaker 1: the Bird on the second Floor, and it's just basically,
Speaker 1: like you say spoken, it's not spoken. He sings a
Speaker 1: jolly old moon's going to shant and which way you
Speaker 1: look at it, I'm all right, wait sing full of
Speaker 1: the bird second floor. I'm telling all the birds that
Speaker 1: are used to date, it's been a giggle, please don't wait.
Speaker 1: Since I saw the Bird on the Zagon floor something
Speaker 1: like that, and then it was there's this little pattern
Speaker 1: in between, like, oh, second full, why don't they get
Speaker 1: lifted here? Still? No matter what is it Thursday steaking
Speaker 1: Kidney Pie whoa lovely because something she has got right?
Speaker 1: You know, people are coming in singing old Man River
Speaker 1: and they're like, then this guy walks in like and
Speaker 1: they're just like, what the fuck is happening? You know
Speaker 1: what's this guy doing? You know, like to distract them
Speaker 1: from the fact that I'm not I'm no good singing wise,
Speaker 1: you know. So I had that ready to go in
Speaker 1: my back pocket, and then I was like nerves, like
Speaker 1: hopefully I can sing good enough. And the guy who
Speaker 1: went in in front of me. You know how this
Speaker 1: is you can hear the person in the room, yeah,
Speaker 1: ahead of you, Like I have a great thing where
Speaker 1: Jason Bateman and I were reading for the lead role
Speaker 1: in an ABC pilot and there was a third guy
Speaker 1: and Bateman wasn't like doing everything at the time. It
Speaker 1: was pre arrested development, but I knew he was a
Speaker 1: super talented there, very nice guy, and so I got
Speaker 1: into the studio that afternoon and they had been like
Speaker 1: a love fest. I was like, oh, people are like, yeah,
Speaker 1: they love you, they love you, they love you, and
Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna be great. This is your role,
Speaker 1: blah blah, you're the front runner, all this stuff which
Speaker 1: you never want to hear. Then I go in and
Speaker 1: I do the exact same read, and I know the
Speaker 1: fact that the read was good more a tyranny. This
Speaker 1: is all name dropping. Kevin Bagan told me never drop
Speaker 1: a name, but this is your podcast, and I'll never
Speaker 1: forget her looking at me like as the silence descended
Speaker 1: and Tumbleweeds blew through and you could hear a distant
Speaker 1: wolf thing in the background, and nobody said anything, just
Speaker 1: kind of stared at me, and I was like hmm,
Speaker 1: and I was like, so I walk out. I went
Speaker 1: in first, I'm like, holy crap. And then they make
Speaker 1: you wait around, right, and so so you're just like
Speaker 1: so you can like then be told to in person
Speaker 1: you were awful.
Speaker 2: So you can go now.
Speaker 1: Yes, I did all the same stuff. I watched Silence.
Speaker 1: Bateman goes in and Silence and I'm like that sucks,
Speaker 1: you know. He walks out. He's like Beta, now I
Speaker 1: won't be getting that role. And he sits beside me
Speaker 1: the two forlorn guys. Third guy goes in and it's deafening.
Speaker 1: The laughter is deafening, Like they just he's the funniest
Speaker 1: guy ever, you know what I mean. Then they poke
Speaker 1: the heads out and they look at Jason and like
Speaker 1: you guys can go.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, thank you. I don't know why I started.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. So then so I'm auditioning for this play
Speaker 1: that's going the Broadway. And the guy goes in in
Speaker 1: front of me, and guess what he sayings Brian old
Speaker 1: Man River and he starts off like and I can
Speaker 1: hear everything like and he builds to this giant crescendo,
Speaker 1: and the walls of the place are shaken, you know,
Speaker 1: speak its rolling, you know. And he comes out and
Speaker 1: there's like applause, like you're twenty people in the room
Speaker 1: and you can hear him clapping, and then it's like
Speaker 1: door opens, tom So, so I go on, exactly, this
Speaker 1: is what the just says to me. You know, they're
Speaker 1: Jason Bateman and me. Even he gets up on the table.
Speaker 1: He's like one hundred and sixty years old, and he
Speaker 1: walks over and his like tweed coat, you know, his
Speaker 1: big Big Glasses comes over and he kind of he
Speaker 1: does this, he crosses his arms, he kind of like
Speaker 1: purses his lips and kind of like rubs his chin,
Speaker 1: and he's like, did you bring anything real to sing?
Speaker 1: So that I go? So that didn't work, so I say,
Speaker 1: why don't you give me what I will have to
Speaker 1: sing in the play, which kind of feels a little
Speaker 1: bit like the death mell. But then he's like, all right,
Speaker 1: well let's read first. I'm like, aha, we do the read.
Speaker 1: It's like it's pratt Fall City because he's got to
Speaker 1: be and you know, the red is like goes swimmingly well,
Speaker 1: and I can feel the whole room change, Like this
Speaker 1: guy doesn't have to be a great singer. You know,
Speaker 1: you end up getting the up, getting the part, but
Speaker 1: it is the Alan Coming of it all. It's just like, look,
Speaker 1: you know, like let's have a couple of really fancy,
Speaker 1: great singers in your show and then we can have me.
Speaker 1: You know, It's like we do we have a slot for?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know this guy. It's crazy because I don't
Speaker 2: think I mean just that you brought up Alan Coming,
Speaker 2: because I don't think you could have pulled any other name,
Speaker 2: Like I loved the performance so much, I would like
Speaker 2: like not changed my life. But like, but if you
Speaker 2: had followed that up like, oh did you see Alan coming? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 2: he was amazing. If you had followed up that and
Speaker 2: said is he a good singer? I couldn't have answered
Speaker 2: the question like truly, so your point is well taken,
Speaker 2: Like I would probably have said something like I assume, yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah he must have been because he was so good. Well,
Speaker 2: you may have changed my life today because I keep
Speaker 2: getting approached or I have been approached to do some musicals.
Speaker 2: I've been nervous.
Speaker 1: You got to do it. I feel like as a
Speaker 1: guy who's done like, you know, a couple thousand musicals
Speaker 1: and sucks, you know, like there's always that complete terror.
Speaker 1: But you know as well as I do, like good
Speaker 1: things can come from that, you know, like good things
Speaker 1: can come from like all right, I'm just going to
Speaker 1: work as hard as I can to not make a
Speaker 1: complete and utter fool of myself in front of all
Speaker 1: these people. And then like you, you know, you're literally
Speaker 1: fighting for survival, you know, and everywhere you are around you,
Speaker 1: at least my experience, everybody is like much better than
Speaker 1: you in at least one facet of being able to
Speaker 1: tell the tale. And so it's just like it sharpens
Speaker 1: your game a little bit. You become like better at survival,
Speaker 1: you become like the things that you're good at, you
Speaker 1: have to really home them. You can't take a day off,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to work as hard as you can.
Speaker 1: And it makes you better, you know, just you know,
Speaker 1: have a decade of terror for me, Like oh bo
Speaker 1: I hear we go. I remember, like I did this
Speaker 1: play year in town and I remember before going on
Speaker 1: to Broadway for the first time, I'm about to make
Speaker 1: my entrance and I have to sing shortly thereafter. I
Speaker 1: remember like the lights going on and like count happening.
Speaker 1: I remember in my head going, who the hell do
Speaker 1: you think you are? Like that was ringing in my head.
Speaker 1: What are you think you're doing? You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And it's like always a constant fight against like oh boy,
Speaker 1: you know, like just trying to like all right, let's
Speaker 1: see if I can get away. Let's see if I can
Speaker 1: get away with this one. But it's you're not going
Speaker 1: to go on and go like oh, I'm really surprised
Speaker 1: by that. There's nothing that they can throw at you.
Speaker 1: I think in front of a camera that you're going
Speaker 1: to say, oh that terrified me today. You know, like
Speaker 1: you you're just but being in front of like the
Speaker 1: audience and doing the musical. You know, there's there's there's
Speaker 1: built in terror there and that's not a bad in
Speaker 1: terms of like living your life and experiences and stuff like.
Speaker 1: I you know, I assume you're gonna win a Tony
Speaker 1: for the next thing, and I'm going to be so
Speaker 1: furious when you're like, you know, I always want to
Speaker 1: know what gonna mention?
Speaker 2: No talk of this, No, I'll bring it. I will
Speaker 2: bring it up, for sure, I'll bring it up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you will get you'll get thanked, Okay, you'll get thankes.
Speaker 2: So back to Canada. You're doing theater, you're doing musical, theater,
Speaker 2: You're doing a little bit of everything. You like. Pamela Anderson,
Speaker 2: Uh do some work for Le Bat Blue.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the first time we've been using
Speaker 1: the same sentence, thank you for that. Uh pretty sure?
Speaker 2: Really that's good.
Speaker 1: Oh no, wait, there is another one that Tom Kavanaugh.
Speaker 1: He's no Pamela Anderson, that's the other sentence.
Speaker 2: Oh right, that was my other joke. Production in Canada
Speaker 2: similar to the United States. Oh me, you do some
Speaker 2: others up. Jake and the Kid is an early television
Speaker 2: show that you do.
Speaker 1: Throwing me the fact that you put in this much.
Speaker 1: I feel like I got to up my game and
Speaker 1: provide you with some socking kind of entertainment. Thank God
Speaker 1: for the enviet But yeah, it's an interesting thing. I think,
Speaker 1: like you, I don't like talking about myself. It's and
Speaker 1: that's all we are doing on this stupid thing. But
Speaker 1: I appreciate you and respect you, so I'm gonna like,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do my best. It is the same because
Speaker 1: of the cultural difference between the two places. It provides
Speaker 1: you with something that I think is I don't know
Speaker 1: if the word is necessary, but extremely helpful to a
Speaker 1: young actor in that the grips are they're moving the
Speaker 1: c stands, you know, the gaffers, you know, fixing the
Speaker 1: keno like that. It's all the same the sand bags
Speaker 1: were putting the sand bags down. It's all the same set.
Speaker 1: There's a confluence of blunstone boots, there's you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot of wearing smoking, and as long as you
Speaker 1: do your job well, you get to keep coming back.
Speaker 1: I've often felt that like the Crew in many ways
Speaker 1: are people that figured out that their favorite subject often
Speaker 1: in school was recess and they figured out how to
Speaker 1: have recess full time, where it's like, look, I can
Speaker 1: do anything. I can wear this, and I can say this,
Speaker 1: and I can I can do this, and I can
Speaker 1: have these tattoos and I can wear the shirt and
Speaker 1: everything is fine because I'm good at my job, right
Speaker 1: And you know, that's that's kind of how it is.
Speaker 1: It's like, if you love what you do, then it's
Speaker 1: not it's not kind of work. It's all the same feel,
Speaker 1: it's all the same kind of thing. And then cut
Speaker 1: and that's a wrap and you go out there and
Speaker 1: nobody knows anything about what show you did and what
Speaker 1: you're doing. And this is not my line. This is
Speaker 1: a Canadian. Another Canadian actor said that there's a star
Speaker 1: making ladder in Canada, but it lies flat on the ground.
Speaker 1: And so so, you know, in a strange way because
Speaker 1: of our our cultural differences, you know, like in America,
Speaker 1: you're you're going to celebrate this kind of different from
Speaker 1: the packability and you're going to promote it. And in
Speaker 1: Canada there's more of a socialism aspect to the idea
Speaker 1: that we're all in this together. Let's not be showing
Speaker 1: off and doing all these things. If you look at
Speaker 1: like the difference between here's the sports and OGE. If
Speaker 1: you look at the NBA players and you know their
Speaker 1: personas and their platforms, and then you look at the
Speaker 1: NHL people you know, and it doesn't have to be
Speaker 1: that way, but it's kind of almost almost famous. Be
Speaker 1: like if you're from Timmins or Kirkland Lake, you know,
Speaker 1: you're like, you don't need to make a big show
Speaker 1: of yourself. And so it's for a young actor that
Speaker 1: wants to be famous, it's not the route that you
Speaker 1: want to take. And that's not a bad thing because
Speaker 1: the result of that is if what you want to
Speaker 1: do is just be famous, you'll be weed it out
Speaker 1: and what will remain are the people that love to
Speaker 1: do it and want to do it and want to
Speaker 1: do it for a living and don't care about acclaim
Speaker 1: and profile. They're there going to work, We're there. I'm
Speaker 1: there going to work on Jaco and the Kid, which
Speaker 1: a show I adored, you know, set in the Saskatchewan
Speaker 1: Prairies with the stunning, awesome beauty wall to wall, you know,
Speaker 1: fields and Big the Giant, Big Sky of the Canadian Prairies,
Speaker 1: a show that I absolutely adored going to work on,
Speaker 1: and I don't know that anybody saw it, you know,
Speaker 1: And I know that it ran for two years, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean, And that didn't matter, Like, it
Speaker 1: didn't it didn't even factor into the equation. So by
Speaker 1: the time I started getting and then you know, a
Speaker 1: decade of musical theater, you know, Broadway has its own groups,
Speaker 1: for sure, but in terms of like the giant scheme
Speaker 1: of like what actors get known, it's relatively small. And
Speaker 1: so by the time you gain any kind of profile,
Speaker 1: you don't really care, you know, you don't like you're like, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that's you know, like people are now saying, hey, be
Speaker 1: on Conan, but you're past the part of being seduced.
Speaker 1: And I think that's in a strange way helpful, because
Speaker 1: what you want to focus on is telling the story
Speaker 1: as best as you can tell the story.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right, and also without those external factors,
Speaker 2: which almost necessarily comes in in terms of getting publicity
Speaker 2: and all of those things in the United States, just
Speaker 2: having the ability to do your work without those external distractions,
Speaker 2: especially as a young actor who can actually then learn
Speaker 2: what it is to be acting with the grip who's
Speaker 2: smoking and moving that like doing his job totally fine.
Speaker 2: But all of those things as a young actor getting
Speaker 2: on set, those are obstacles that you have to that
Speaker 2: you have to overcome, and so not having those external
Speaker 2: things to me seems like that seems really cool.
Speaker 1: It's huge. I think it's I think it's huge. I
Speaker 1: think of now with social media. You know, I do
Speaker 1: this television show. It's a superhero show that I direct
Speaker 1: and act in, and you know it's the superhero shows
Speaker 1: are generally populated by young, attractive actors, you know, and
Speaker 1: then you've got like, you know, a couple of dudes
Speaker 1: like myself and Jesse Martin another like you know from Rent,
Speaker 1: another huge Broadway guy. But he I look at young
Speaker 1: actors who are getting famous at the age of twenty,
Speaker 1: and I think it's great for bank accounts and all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But like you say, like the
Speaker 1: mistakes I'm making and the overacting I'm doing on Jake
Speaker 1: and the kid like I'm getting, you know, like every
Speaker 1: day you're getting a little bit better. You're always trying
Speaker 1: to get better. And if you know, just this male
Speaker 1: stream of attention is focused on you when you're twenty
Speaker 1: four or twenty five, twenty six, and you know, like
Speaker 1: like any other profession, you hopefully keep improving. To this day,
Speaker 1: I still feel like, got it, got it, try and
Speaker 1: get good. You're always trying to trying to get there,
Speaker 1: right we You know, I grew up in a in
Speaker 1: a way like you know, if I had had a
Speaker 1: massive amount of attention on you know, I think the
Speaker 1: the early days and the stuff that I did on film,
Speaker 1: they'd be like, well, we should never hire this person
Speaker 1: again because he's terrible.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Well I don't know about that, because you you come
Speaker 2: out of the gate pretty. You know.
Speaker 1: I've seen some stuff on CBC, you know, the Canadian
Speaker 1: Broadcasting Corporation where you know, I've got like, you know,
Speaker 1: long hair, and I look awful and and I'm awful.
Speaker 1: I'm awful on camera, awful, you know, and you're just like,
Speaker 1: holy cow, Like how did they not like just like
Speaker 1: cut hangs like fire him that person, get that person
Speaker 1: that would just stay stay stay, You're like you and
Speaker 1: so but then you like you know, like you you see,
Speaker 1: I had a friend who was an editor and I
Speaker 1: got to sit in the in the edit, and you know,
Speaker 1: I had a director who you know, invited me into
Speaker 1: the into the edit because she was like, she was like,
Speaker 1: you know, you have directing ability, you kind of know
Speaker 1: what the camera's doing. This will help you learn. And
Speaker 1: it was, you know, massively instrumental. Also, you get to
Speaker 1: you get to gauge your performance, you know, and you're
Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, that's that's terrible, you know,
Speaker 1: and then you start, you know, you start improving, you
Speaker 1: start figuring out what you know, you need to have
Speaker 1: the thought and be in the moment and actually listen,
Speaker 1: you know, and all those things sound so easy, but
Speaker 1: as you know, like if you can do those things,
Speaker 1: then actually you probably will turn in it a good performance.
Speaker 1: They're much much more elusive and slippery and hard to do,
Speaker 1: harder to do than they sound.
Speaker 2: Right. I want to talk to you about acting in
Speaker 2: theater and on the stage versus film and television. Do
Speaker 2: you consider it to be different versions of the same
Speaker 2: thing or is it different for you?
Speaker 1: Brian, Such a good question, because I think I think
Speaker 1: you sort of want to say it isn't because you're
Speaker 1: telling a story and yet there's a difference to telling
Speaker 1: the story all at once in the immediacy of the
Speaker 1: audience and electricity in the air and the feedback that
Speaker 1: you get that as you know, like you know, like
Speaker 1: if you and I acting on camera, like we're going
Speaker 1: to know when we're in the zone, and we're going
Speaker 1: to know when we're we're not in the zone. It's
Speaker 1: going to be up to you and I to feel that,
Speaker 1: you know, and theaters are same, but there's also there's
Speaker 1: a palpable energy that you know, some kind of ephemeral
Speaker 1: code that comes from a thousand people in the stands.
Speaker 1: Very early on, like you know, tried to figure it
Speaker 1: was trying to figure out what the people who I
Speaker 1: thought were amazing we're doing, you know, And I tried
Speaker 1: to watch you know, every like if you John Malkovich
Speaker 1: burn this on stage I think eighty seven on Broadway,
Speaker 1: Like you watch Malcovich the play is great, but he
Speaker 1: comes in there like watch this, everybody, sit the fuck down,
Speaker 1: watch this entrance, you know what I mean. And and
Speaker 1: then Brando in Streetcar from the first thing like just
Speaker 1: there's these are just there's there's one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: things streep, you know, like I remember her and Kevin
Speaker 1: Klein sophie' choyce going like why is she? What the hell?
Speaker 1: And I remember like dissecting those things. This is way back, obviously,
Speaker 1: but I was so young and they were so good,
Speaker 1: you know, and they all seem to be so in
Speaker 1: the moment, you know, and so either on stage or
Speaker 1: on camera, and I was like, well, there's something that
Speaker 1: Brando's doing on stage, or something Brando's doing, you know,
Speaker 1: on camera that feels like stage to me. And I
Speaker 1: got to try and figure out. And so I found
Speaker 1: this quote by brand though about the differences between the two,
Speaker 1: and I write it on all my scripts always have.
Speaker 1: What he said was, you know, in theater you have
Speaker 1: to show the audience what you're thinking. On film, you
Speaker 1: just have to think it. The caveat being that you
Speaker 1: actually have to think it. You can't just act it.
Speaker 1: Like you know, you've been on on camera and on
Speaker 1: stage with people who are no other line is coming,
Speaker 1: and they're prepared and they just say the line. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're having the thought behind the line. And
Speaker 1: that's the difference between I think a good performance many
Speaker 1: times and a poor one where it's like you are
Speaker 1: actively something is going on behind these lines that are
Speaker 1: coming out of out of your head and so like,
Speaker 1: you know, Brando also said the same thing with theatre,
Speaker 1: where he's like, you know, and this is sort of
Speaker 1: thing if anyone's seen anything that I do is a
Speaker 1: very poor imitation of what he said, but I really
Speaker 1: firmly believe it. And Pacino the same has said the
Speaker 1: same sort of thing, where it's like, the character is
Speaker 1: the cage. You build the cage and you can just
Speaker 1: raw the hell out of it, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's like, how does Pacino go again away? It's like
Speaker 1: what how does he get away with the yelling that? Like,
Speaker 1: what what's he doing? But he's built this thing where
Speaker 1: the guy does that and it doesn't seem you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take a flag a price. You're just like, wait,
Speaker 1: you mean you're gonna take a flat for yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: but it's this giant thing and you're like, Okay, he's
Speaker 1: built this character and now he can rattle the cage.
Speaker 1: So I don't have anything new or better to offer
Speaker 1: as an answer to your question than that, but that
Speaker 1: those are pretty good starting points.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, absolutely, I find it fascinating. But I you know,
Speaker 2: when I made the switch. For me, it was there
Speaker 2: was a harder edge. I wasn't sort of bleeding back
Speaker 2: and forth for the most part, And so I always
Speaker 2: sort of refer to it as me changing careers in
Speaker 2: a way, because I felt like there was just such
Speaker 2: a different mindset and focus in some ways. Even though
Speaker 2: the central skill, if you will, is the same, the
Speaker 2: training behind that is still the same. It's just executed
Speaker 2: in such a different way.
Speaker 1: But the community of the the like the community of
Speaker 1: it all, like I'm sharing the dressing room. We're you know,
Speaker 1: like my part might be quite big, but there's four
Speaker 1: of us jammed in here and all sharing the same thing,
Speaker 1: and we're all working together, you know, in the and
Speaker 1: it's completely equal, and we're all taking the same five
Speaker 1: minute break, and nobody's getting extra special treatment, at least
Speaker 1: in the productions that I've been involved in, you know.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, that thing is like, hey, it's like DELFI,
Speaker 1: It's like where it all started. We're all like this community,
Speaker 1: we're all doing it together, whereas film, you know, is
Speaker 1: you know, on television, very very different animal.
Speaker 2: What was the decision behind moving to Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. I never moved to Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: I'm in. I stayed in New York and have lived
Speaker 1: in New York. I have children, they were all born
Speaker 1: in the city. And it's funny. You'd shoot out in
Speaker 1: LA all the time and people be like, wait, you
Speaker 1: don't live here. It's like, now, I live in New York,
Speaker 1: and I remember you'd always get like, how'd you get it?
Speaker 1: How'd you manage to do that? I always get that.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, I came for Broadway, like, and I'm
Speaker 1: not like an East Coast West Coast basher. New York
Speaker 1: City is much more. It's me, you know. I like
Speaker 1: to walk. It's boots on the ground. It's like there's
Speaker 1: the gym, you know, there's the there's the deli, there's
Speaker 1: the you know. It was just that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: And what got me there was that guy Philip Rose,
Speaker 1: the director was like, did you bring anything real to sing?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: And he ended up you know, blessed bless his cotton socks.
Speaker 1: He cast me in the thing, and next thing you know,
Speaker 1: I'm in living in Hell's kitchen, walking back and forth
Speaker 1: to fifty second Street to the Broadway Theater, you know,
Speaker 1: every every matinee and every night. So I was like,
Speaker 1: this is I feel like I'm supposed to be here
Speaker 1: and you know, so, yeah, I've been in the city
Speaker 1: for like twenty five years.
Speaker 2: I guess, wow, the early two thousands. It's at least
Speaker 2: worth mentioning. You do get cast as in a number
Speaker 2: of shows, big shows at the time, Scrubs, Providence, and
Speaker 2: then ultimately become the what are they called titular titular?
Speaker 2: I don't that's such a weird word. That's the word
Speaker 2: that just popped into my head. You become the titular titular.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it right.
Speaker 1: I think likely to take it good luck.
Speaker 2: I don't know what character ed in ad with the
Speaker 2: aforementioned Julie Bowen. Your experience, well, being the captain of
Speaker 2: the ship, I mean not directing or writing, but being
Speaker 2: the being number one on the call sheet. How was
Speaker 2: that different for you or was that just an extension
Speaker 2: of the other work. Did you feel added pressure?
Speaker 1: Oh? No, I I no, I did not feel added pressure.
Speaker 1: I felt like every now and again something comes up
Speaker 1: and it's just like we're all supposed to be here,
Speaker 1: you know. I worked with name Drop, I worked with
Speaker 1: Mike Farrell from Mash and I remember him. You know,
Speaker 1: he would just regale me with like stories and it's
Speaker 1: just like, yeah, that was the moment, the moment in time,
Speaker 1: and you know those he said to me, like you
Speaker 1: know those gut we would get together on Friday night
Speaker 1: to see where we were going for dinner on Saturday
Speaker 1: night on her day off nine years in you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, right, And he said and I remember
Speaker 1: him saying, went like verbatim again verbai. He was like,
Speaker 1: can you imagine that? And I could because Ed was
Speaker 1: like that for us, Like it was just you know,
Speaker 1: that show had initially been you know, it was positioned
Speaker 1: for CBS, and then they didn't pick it up. It
Speaker 1: didn't outright Shelvet and Roburnette, who ran the Late Show
Speaker 1: with David Letterman, who also produced at the time, Everiela's Raymond,
Speaker 1: which was a giant show for them, and he had leverage,
Speaker 1: I guess, and he asked for it back because he
Speaker 1: felt something about the show, which we all did, like
Speaker 1: I'd gotten a couple of in strange ways. I also
Speaker 1: auditioned for a couple of other shows and had to
Speaker 1: turn them down. In the year, literally three hundred and
Speaker 1: sixty five days we waited to see if ed would
Speaker 1: go anywhere else, you know, and it just was a
Speaker 1: sense that something about this thing was bigger than us
Speaker 1: at the time, and so I kind of held out
Speaker 1: for it, which on paper it was an insane thing,
Speaker 1: because once the show doesn't go on a network, it's it.
Speaker 1: It's over.
Speaker 2: Yes it is.
Speaker 1: And then Rob took it to NBC and said, you know,
Speaker 1: like and they said, well, okay, let's reshoot the pilot.
Speaker 1: And then they picked it up and then you know,
Speaker 1: it got like twenty two million or something, and it's
Speaker 1: like and it's like debut, and it was thrilling, to
Speaker 1: be sure, but it didn't feel like can you believe it?
Speaker 1: Like it just sort of felt like, yeah, we should
Speaker 1: just stay with this horse.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I remember Burnett saying the same thing, and Rob is
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've worked with Rob or no
Speaker 1: Rob at all, but Robert is one of the most
Speaker 1: intelligent and entertaining humans, not in the not in the
Speaker 1: world that we live in, but just like in the
Speaker 1: world itself, Like just as good as they and as
Speaker 1: smart as they get, and smart and humble in power
Speaker 1: don't often collide. Well, And you know, when I got
Speaker 1: offered a lead in another show that did go and
Speaker 1: I was shooting a movie in Utah and we were
Speaker 1: waiting to see NBC hadn't even picked up the thing.
Speaker 1: We were just in this limbo and he was basically like,
Speaker 1: you know, like you should take this other job. I
Speaker 1: was like, I don't. I'm not built that way. I
Speaker 1: sort of feel like you need to have that. We
Speaker 1: need to get a full at bat. You, Robernette, need
Speaker 1: to get a full at bat and you have two strikes. Basically,
Speaker 1: we always do this. We like we when the show
Speaker 1: got picked up and he would try and explain what
Speaker 1: he wanted the character to do. He would use sports analogy,
Speaker 1: and what was great about Rob is he can come
Speaker 1: up with fifty in a minute, and I to entertain myself.
Speaker 1: He would start explaining to me like, you know, like
Speaker 1: it's it's like you're going on the blue line and
Speaker 1: then like you feel like, oh wait, I feel somebody's circle.
Speaker 1: You gotta circle back. And I wouldn't say it. I
Speaker 1: just kind of look at him, and then he'd be like,
Speaker 1: you know what, it's like, it's like your goalie is pulled,
Speaker 1: but you need and he would just coming up with
Speaker 1: like a whole bunch of different things, and I would
Speaker 1: just like and then after about three minutes with me
Speaker 1: just like wait, he'd be like, you're doing it again,
Speaker 1: aren't you? And oh my god, check this out. This
Speaker 1: is a picture somebody's And I didn't even plan this, Brian,
Speaker 1: I swear to god, I didn't plan this. I've never
Speaker 1: seen this picture anywhere, but this is my office and
Speaker 1: like somebody snapped this on Ed while he was trying
Speaker 1: to explain what the character should do to me? Can
Speaker 1: you see that? Yeah, that's me and that's Rob and
Speaker 1: I'm he's just going through sports analogy after sports analogy
Speaker 1: and I'll keep you my mouth shut because he's so
Speaker 1: damn entertaining, right, But he said something like he's like,
Speaker 1: you know, everybody can like pick the thoroughbred in the
Speaker 1: gate that they think, but nobody knows till the horses run,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. And you know, like in
Speaker 1: a strange way with Ed, like it was just they
Speaker 1: just felt like it something here should happen. And then
Speaker 1: we got in like you say, captain, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm willing to fight for my co workers and co
Speaker 1: actors and do that thing, and you know, I definitely
Speaker 1: coming from an athletic background and being a captain on
Speaker 1: sports teams, I know how to do that. That being said,
Speaker 1: it very much felt like theater in the best way
Speaker 1: in that there there there was an equality across the
Speaker 1: board for all the actors. And many shows aren't like that,
Speaker 1: but the good many of the good ones are, and
Speaker 1: so in terms of responsibility, just sort of felt like
Speaker 1: everyone had it to one another to you know, to
Speaker 1: keep the promise of this this thing alive. Those were
Speaker 1: joyous days. And not only that, but the crew was
Speaker 1: family and friends, just as the actors were amongst themselves,
Speaker 1: and it was a whole kind of like sometimes the
Speaker 1: show has its moment in time and you're fortunate enough
Speaker 1: to be part of that thing, and this was this
Speaker 1: was one of those that's awesome.
Speaker 2: I love to hear that, you know. That was shortly
Speaker 2: before I moved to Los Angeles, and I was a
Speaker 2: big fan of the show and I just loved Heart
Speaker 2: And people talk about this about the Office, so it's
Speaker 2: not me saying it though I'm saying it right now.
Speaker 2: It was a show where you could really feel that
Speaker 2: the people who were working on it cared about each other,
Speaker 2: so it's nice to I mean I could feel that
Speaker 2: watching It's not surprising, but it's still nice to hear
Speaker 2: you talk about And.
Speaker 1: I think people don't know that about I mean, I
Speaker 1: think people know about the success of the Office and
Speaker 1: it's a beloved show, but that it also didn't have like, hey,
Speaker 1: let's do this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I remember talking to John. I think John Krazinski's first
Speaker 1: on an episode I directed, of Ed. I think that
Speaker 1: was his first professional on camera movement.
Speaker 2: Really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd met him at a at the After Offices
Speaker 1: in New York. We walked up the street together just
Speaker 1: he was just a he just moved from Boston, and
Speaker 1: you know, you know how some people like this guy's
Speaker 1: got it, you know what I mean. He just sort
Speaker 1: of felt like I felt like I should know him,
Speaker 1: and he felt I guess I should know me. And
Speaker 1: so then I gave him like on the show I
Speaker 1: was directing, I got the cast, and I don't think
Speaker 1: he had a network credit at that point. And I
Speaker 1: still feel bad to this day that like it would
Speaker 1: happen relatively soon, and I was like, do you want
Speaker 1: to play the part of like the subpoena server? And
Speaker 1: so he did that and it was just me and
Speaker 1: him in the scene, and he was the best actor
Speaker 1: in the scene. And you know, this bat to this
Speaker 1: day felt bad that it wasn't a bigger role. But
Speaker 1: I didn't direct all of them. That was one that
Speaker 1: was like, hey, you can do this if you want,
Speaker 1: and he did. But what's interesting is about knowing if
Speaker 1: somebody's a good actor just to go just to take
Speaker 1: the thing off the tracks for a second. Talking about John,
Speaker 1: like when you direct, you're in the edit a lot,
Speaker 1: and I had this wide shot that I use, and
Speaker 1: you know, he has to come in midway through the scene.
Speaker 1: He kind of showed that there's some kind of argument
Speaker 1: that I turned turned around, boom, are you at Stevens guys,
Speaker 1: you've been served? And then off he goes, right, But
Speaker 1: in the two minutes that lead up to that, he's
Speaker 1: completely busy. You know, he's kind of looking around to
Speaker 1: see he kind of orders a drink from the bar,
Speaker 1: kind of looking around, like backing up, scoping it out,
Speaker 1: kind of Oh, just before I think it's that guy,
Speaker 1: you know, and times has walk all the way down
Speaker 1: right to when I'm about to turn in, there he is,
Speaker 1: you know, and that sounds easy. It's not easy. You know,
Speaker 1: it's not easy. It's not easy at all. And crisis
Speaker 1: here is like bang bang bang and watch them an
Speaker 1: edit and I'm just like, you know, when you have
Speaker 1: a good feeling with good people and it happens, it's incredible.
Speaker 2: You do musical theater obviously a lot of comedy and
Speaker 2: drama Canada, Ghana, the United States. But I can't find
Speaker 2: anywhere where you had played a superhero or super villain
Speaker 2: or Warren Tights other than Shakespeare. What was that like
Speaker 2: for you stepping into that world? A world obviously with
Speaker 2: a lot of lore, a lot of history, people care
Speaker 2: and believe passionately and it what was it like for
Speaker 2: you to take such a departure for yourself and to
Speaker 2: jump into that world.
Speaker 1: I think the interesting thing about questions and ideas like
Speaker 1: that just I sort of feel like you're always kind
Speaker 1: of trying to I' mean Julie Bowen, so she just
Speaker 1: never thinks she's going to get hired again. The big
Speaker 1: question that sometimes doesn't get addressed is the question of
Speaker 1: in capital letters, will they have you. I'm sure that
Speaker 1: I would love to have been a superhero an Avenger
Speaker 1: in my twenties, you know, and people don't want you,
Speaker 1: or the opportunity doesn't come up, And so that's always
Speaker 1: a giant part of it, as like who will have you?
Speaker 1: And you need sometimes to be aided and embedded by
Speaker 1: people like Berlanti, where you know you've gone through some
Speaker 1: of the fires together and had poor results, so he
Speaker 1: and I forging fires of cancelation and stuff, and like
Speaker 1: the sort of damocles hanging over our head all the time,
Speaker 1: and how you react to that, like, look, I'm happy
Speaker 1: to be here. I like this show, I like being
Speaker 1: with you. I like saying these words. After a while,
Speaker 1: it becomes almost like a repertory group with somebody like that,
Speaker 1: where they're like, I can rely on this guy, you know.
Speaker 1: So I don't think I'm anybody's choice to be the
Speaker 1: joker to the Batman the way I am in this
Speaker 1: flashow where I'm the reverse flash to the flash apart
Speaker 1: from Greg Burlanty, I don't think they'd have me. Not
Speaker 1: only that because they didn't want to tell me. They
Speaker 1: don't want to tell anyone actually who the villain was
Speaker 1: because they were afraid of it leaking. They were like, hey,
Speaker 1: do you just want you want to play this scientist?
Speaker 1: And I'm like no, and then like and then and
Speaker 1: then the second phone call was like, come on, play
Speaker 1: the scientist, and I was like, that's your approach, come on,
Speaker 1: come on. The second time, you're like come on, and
Speaker 1: I was like, no, no, I don' want to play
Speaker 1: a scientist. Like I'm like no, you know. Then they're
Speaker 1: like they literally fly me out to Los Angeles, you know,
Speaker 1: like I'll never forget. I'm in the halls of NBC
Speaker 1: and Burbank. It's on like a Saturday, I think, and
Speaker 1: there's nobody around Brian, nobody, and yet you know, the
Speaker 1: executive producer like still goes and like closes the door
Speaker 1: so that nobody will overhear what he has to say.
Speaker 1: I'm like, what is happening, wh I gonna get mugged?
Speaker 1: And he says, the role we really want you for
Speaker 1: is Eobarthon. I'm like, I don't know who that is,
Speaker 1: which I don't say because I don't want to see
Speaker 1: him like a complete idiot because these people comment. But
Speaker 1: people live for this stuff, so I say, keep talking, right,
Speaker 1: and he says he's the reverse Flash and I'm like
Speaker 1: and then he goes he's the villain, and I'm like
Speaker 1: you could have saved yourself two thousand dollars by just
Speaker 1: saying that over the phone. I'm like, I'm in, I'm in,
Speaker 1: of course I'm in, like playing the villain wearing wear
Speaker 1: in a supersuit, right, And to address your question of
Speaker 1: like did you ever think that happens? Like a no B.
Speaker 1: Thank god that it is, you know, twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: and the era is like Ben Affleck can go on
Speaker 1: the donut diet and still jump into the Batman suit
Speaker 1: and he can be fine, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's not the Adam West of yr when they put
Speaker 1: this spandex on and I'm so sorry, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. Like then nowadays, you know the suit like
Speaker 1: I had, Like the suit that I wear was like
Speaker 1: ten ten thousand, yeah dollars, and like I've had like
Speaker 1: five five fittings. I've also played the flash. I have
Speaker 1: to wear his red suit. I wear my yellow suit.
Speaker 1: And it's like artisans and artist crafting these suits, and
Speaker 1: like I often felt like, you know, like the backstage
Speaker 1: genius of the office catching the person, like John Clee
Speaker 1: said it famously. When I was a young person, I
Speaker 1: used to think that the funniest thing was you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know this score. But he was like saying,
Speaker 1: the funniest thing ever was a normal person completely losing
Speaker 1: their mind, like just having the biggest breakdown and just
Speaker 1: kind of like screaming and going off the rails. He said,
Speaker 1: As I go, oh do, I realized the funniest thing
Speaker 1: was the man watching Batman. Yeah, you know, which is
Speaker 1: basically that's the that's the genius of the office, right.
Speaker 1: And so I've often felt like for these fittings, if
Speaker 1: they knew what they were doing, they would actually have
Speaker 1: somebody as this person's getting fit for a super suit film.
Speaker 1: The people like just like staring at you, and they
Speaker 1: reach out and they kind of like tug a cowl
Speaker 1: right in your face and they're like like okay, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. PROD push bang, PROD pull.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: But like and then you ultimately end up being the
Speaker 1: most grateful beneficiary of their work because you put on
Speaker 1: the suit fits you like love, you look good. It's
Speaker 1: just like thank heavens, Thank heavens for them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it's not spandex. Yeah, I just want
Speaker 2: to hear from you. For me, it's a dream role
Speaker 2: because you are constantly playing different characters, different versions of yourself.
Speaker 2: That's a dream for me. How has that been? Has
Speaker 2: that been challenging or just fun to dive in and
Speaker 2: find different versions of yourself to play these various characters
Speaker 2: that reverse flash in habits.
Speaker 1: Well, not to bore your listeners, I assume by now
Speaker 1: if they're still on there on for the rest of
Speaker 1: this you know, but I mean, you know so because
Speaker 1: of BERLANDI and the shows that we don't or are
Speaker 1: being canceled. You know, we went into season one just
Speaker 1: we're just going to tell Batman versus Joker. It's going
Speaker 1: to become me, and you don't know that I am.
Speaker 1: You think I'm like his mentor, and then I end
Speaker 1: up being the reverse Flash. And so it's basically Flash
Speaker 1: versus Reverse Flash for twenty two episodes and in the
Speaker 1: big finale in the twenty third episode, it's me versus
Speaker 1: him giant fight and he wins because guess what it's
Speaker 1: called the Flash. You know. The network's like Warner Brothers
Speaker 1: is like, we want more of these, many more of these,
Speaker 1: and so for me, it's like, well, you can't tell
Speaker 1: that story again. You already did Flash versus Flash. So
Speaker 1: I was like, thank you you know, see, yeah, I
Speaker 1: appreciate it. And then Greg was like, well, what would
Speaker 1: it basically take for you to come back? And then
Speaker 1: that's where the idea was hatched to, like what if
Speaker 1: you're the same character but from Because it's a multiverse,
Speaker 1: there's many earths, and there's like, you know, we could
Speaker 1: while we're waiting for the yellow suited guy to come
Speaker 1: in and wreak havoc to Central City, I could invent
Speaker 1: another character that has the same name, but it looks
Speaker 1: the same, but it's different. And that's where that came
Speaker 1: out of. And so every year it was like, I
Speaker 1: think I want to play an Indiana Jones type character.
Speaker 1: Or I remember season I think it was season four
Speaker 1: where I said to the show runner helping, I'm like,
Speaker 1: what if Sherlock Holmes is French and is trying to
Speaker 1: track down me the reverse flash? That would be a
Speaker 1: good storyline. And he was like, I don't know if
Speaker 1: we can get away with the French thing. I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: we can do it. It's going to be great. Trust me,
Speaker 1: he's French, He's show look, show look, look, you know,
Speaker 1: and like by this time we still hadn't gotten canceled,
Speaker 1: but then they're like, yeah, okay, fine.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's over an actor, Like if you know, if you're
Speaker 1: lucky enough to be in a long running show like
Speaker 1: that's that's kind of everything right there. You're going to
Speaker 1: play the same character and you're going to be grateful
Speaker 1: for it. Like to have something like this where you know,
Speaker 1: like you get to play the villain who's the same
Speaker 1: and then invent a new character year after year on
Speaker 1: a show that ran nine years, it's kind of like
Speaker 1: it's insane, so that rarely, rarely really happened. So I
Speaker 1: couldn't be more grateful.
Speaker 2: You stepped out a couple of years ago, and now
Speaker 2: this is the ninth year. As you mentioned, it's its
Speaker 2: final season. Are there feeling are you going through the
Speaker 2: feelings even though you're not there every day?
Speaker 1: No? Okay, I mean I think it's different, like I
Speaker 1: think a show like The Office is different. I think
Speaker 1: a half hour is different, you know, I think you
Speaker 1: know how it is like an hour can be like,
Speaker 1: you know, grueling, an hour that is like Law and
Speaker 1: Order can be grueling. It's a whole, big, giant production.
Speaker 1: And after I left after season six, it felt like
Speaker 1: I've always kind of felt like you want to you
Speaker 1: want to do you the best you can to not
Speaker 1: leave on the far side of the mountain, and you
Speaker 1: don't want to overstay. You're welcome, and I felt that
Speaker 1: staying longer would be overstaying my welcome caveat being that
Speaker 1: I knew that Batman's going to need the joker, So
Speaker 1: I had an incredible position where I could leave the show,
Speaker 1: but would I knew that I would be called back
Speaker 1: because I that's the main villain, you know, So it
Speaker 1: couldn't be more ideal because you didn't have to like
Speaker 1: get teary eyed and bid farewell and be upset. And
Speaker 1: sure enough, every year they would call me back to
Speaker 1: do a little bit, So I got to see everybody
Speaker 1: and hang out for a little bit, but also not
Speaker 1: do twenty two in the dark of night, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. And so I feel like when we
Speaker 1: said goodbye, you know, I think we said goodbye at
Speaker 1: the right time. It was like four and a half years,
Speaker 1: I think, but I remember it being really difficult. I
Speaker 1: remember that being extremely emotional. It just felt like your
Speaker 1: heart was breaking, even though you knew it was the
Speaker 1: right thing, you know. And I think nine years on
Speaker 1: a superhero show. Everybody's like, God, did you cut yet?
Speaker 2: God?
Speaker 1: Okay, bye?
Speaker 2: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: That's just one person's opinion. I think there'll be many
Speaker 1: actors and actresses on that show who you know, have
Speaker 1: a different thing. But only I think half of the
Speaker 1: OG cast made it through, you know, a full nine anyway,
Speaker 1: so they may have different they may have different impressions.
Speaker 2: Well, you're certainly not looking for things to do. You're
Speaker 2: doing a ton of directing, I understand, including directing the
Speaker 2: premiere of Superman for the CW, another tights wearing hero.
Speaker 1: Exactly right.
Speaker 2: You have a Broadway musical that's in the works, and
Speaker 2: a new game show coming up for Game Show Network. Hey, Yahoo,
Speaker 2: you've done your homework. Man. I mean you're You're everywhere,
Speaker 2: and you know what, this country, America is better for it. Canadians,
Speaker 2: they lost you long ago. I heard twenty five years
Speaker 2: you've been here. You're famously from America.
Speaker 1: Now you're a grand You're a grand human being.
Speaker 2: Tom. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time
Speaker 2: coming on.
Speaker 1: Uh, patient and tolerant. Let me just say I'm gonna
Speaker 1: I am inject with like your patient and tolerant. This
Speaker 1: is a guy who talked about himself for an hour,
Speaker 1: and I feel that just mercy on your and your listeners.
Speaker 1: But you're oh, no, generous. You're generous to have me aboard.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. It's just great to talk to you.
Speaker 2: Through this work. Don't let's not mistake it. I have
Speaker 2: I have a ticket in the express elevator to Heaven.
Speaker 2: Don't mistake me. Don't mistake me.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to get to heaven and he didn't
Speaker 1: want to wait in line. I don't Hey, hey, Brian,
Speaker 1: come on forward.
Speaker 2: No, I don't do I don't do lines. No, you
Speaker 2: don't do lines, not anymore. Thank you, Tom. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Real pleasure, Tom.
Speaker 2: Thank you for joining me and really for becoming my
Speaker 2: new bestie. I'm going to see you soon, all right,
Speaker 2: to be continued as they say in a flash, if
Speaker 2: you will, thank you. Thank you very much, listeners. I'm
Speaker 2: going to see you next week for another episode. I
Speaker 2: can't wait. I hope you will join me. I will
Speaker 2: talk to you then. Off the Beat is hosted and
Speaker 2: executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer, Linglee,
Speaker 2: our senior producer is Diego Tapia. Our producers are Liz Hayes,
Speaker 2: Hannah Harris and Emily Carr. Our talent producer is Ryan
Speaker 2: Papa Zachary and our intern is Sammy Katz. Our theme
Speaker 2: song Bubble and Squeak, performed by the one and Only
Speaker 2: Creed Brad