WEBVTT - Michael Stipe on R.E.M. and Fear of Collage 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.000 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:21.640 thing you are not. I will go to the music 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.400 you're hearing is the biggest song by one of the 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:27.920 biggest bands in the world of the last forty years. 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.199 In the eighties, r e M was the epitome of 0:00:32.240 --> 0:00:36.840 the artful alternative band, producing a string of beautiful, if 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:42.520 occasionally inscrutable albums and slowly evolving over time. But then 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:45.840 came the album Out of Time, ri E M's true 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:50.080 arrival as global rock stars, writing largely on the strength 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:53.920 of Losing My Religion, which was in constant notation on 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:59.120 TV and radio throughout The record is now being reissued, 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.720 and it was the moment lead singer Michael Stipe stepped 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.440 out with a bit more confidence into his role as 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:10.840 front band. Both intensely private and flamboyantly public, Stipe led 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:15.800 the band through twenty more years of bold experimentation, massive success, 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:20.399 and the occasional misstep, but never insincerity. RI E M 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:23.759 disbanded in two thousand eleven, and for the last five years, 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:28.080 Stipe has channeled his new time and energy into photography, teaching, 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:32.400 and politics, and while his songs will almost certainly last 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.960 in the cultural memory for a very long time. Stipe 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:40.399 himself has even longer term ambitions, like living until he's 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:43.000 a hundred and twenty. I think that, you know, I 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:45.840 think the way things are advancing, it would be possible 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:50.080 to live a happy life well into your hundreds. If 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:56.200 was the outer edge and you go to one years, 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:57.840 what are all things you want to do in those 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.720 twenty five years? I would hope that I inherited from 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.800 my mother a great curiosity about the world, and I've 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:09.200 watched her age and remain curious and want to keep 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:12.000 learning and growing. And I would hope that I would 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:15.000 have that you were an army child. Ye, army Brad, 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.360 I don't know, army. I'll let you say Bratt was 0:02:17.520 --> 0:02:20.639 most of the nurture and so forth from your mom 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:22.440 because she was she was she more on the scene 0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:23.880 and Dad was gone all the time. Did you pick 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.680 up things from him to He came and went a lot. 0:02:26.120 --> 0:02:28.640 But what what being an army Bratt did to myself 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:35.240 and my sisters was to create probably a closer family 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:38.200 dynamic than regular people have, because we picked up and 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.799 moved so much that we were we were the foundation. Um. 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:43.680 It made you closer. It made us much closer and 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.040 so a very very very lucky man in their regard. 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.240 I'm one of the ones who I like I landed, 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.720 like I got the gold ring. And when it comes 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:56.120 to family, yeah, I mean you you have two sisters, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.400 two sisters, so the three of your total, and on 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:00.560 a day around you see them where they or they 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.880 often like Alaska and Fiji were the whole family lives 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:10.120 in Athens, Georgia, and they're in Athens. I know Athens. 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:12.880 I know Athens yea. And that it wasn't Mike was 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:17.760 Mike from Athens, Mike Mills actually from Macon. We all met, 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:19.760 we were from we all met a new g a 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.359 um of the places I read that you lived when 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:26.320 you were moving around in Europe and in the South, 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.480 and so was there one place you stayed the longest. 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:33.280 You're a recollection of memory of a place you were in. 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.720 Remember Germany? Yeah? I remember Germany more than anywhere really. 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.160 I think Germany and then well it's hard to say, 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:45.440 because I'm um, I kind of see everything, so but 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.880 then I don't really remember everything. But Germany was for 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.400 me a time that I feel like I remember almost 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:52.240 every single day that we were there. Which was about 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.920 just under two years. How old were you seven and eight? 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.440 How old were you when you'd say, I'm not a 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:01.960 musician and I don't play music, but I feel like 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:05.120 I have, you know, Elvis lives inside me, you know, 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.800 I have. I have this desire like everybody everyone, which 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.840 is they could sing and get up there and perform 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:15.760 and have that effect on people. And you'd hear MacArthur park, 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.279 you know, Richard Harris would sing McArthur and and I go, god, 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.599 I remember listening to that song on a transistor radio. 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:23.960 And I go back and look up the date and 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.360 I go, oh my god, I was nine. It's so 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.599 much younger. It's in you so much younger. Can you 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:31.599 can you remember when how old you were when you 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.320 let that in and starts? What a great song to reference. 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:37.160 I mean, that's one of those really insanely bizarre pop 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:39.280 songs that you know, here's a guy that doesn't sing, 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.000 he's he's a drunk most of his life, he's a 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.440 he's brilliant, and for some crazy, for some reason, the 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:49.640 songwriter tags him to sing this insanely beautiful song about 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:52.200 nothing about a cake with green icing that's melting in 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.920 the rank it's really it's you know when you win 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.160 in Yeah, I love that song and I love the song, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:04:59.520 and the guy who wrote it was one of one 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.760 of our great American songwriters, Jimmy Webb. I did. I 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:04.680 did an interview with him once for a book that 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:06.559 he wrote in and he called me on the phone 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:09.880 to talk about songwriting and we had an hour to 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.320 talk and I couldn't get a word in edge twice 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.640 he talked the entire time. I couldn't wait for the 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:16.240 book to come out to see what I had said 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:19.640 because I don't remember having said anything. It was pretty 0:05:19.839 --> 0:05:22.919 pretty good. But but do you remember, like an age 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:24.800 was it was your time in your life when you 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.200 remember when music came in, music comes in. It was 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:33.599 always there. Um My my earliest members before the my 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:36.640 kind of ground zero point was at the age of 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:40.320 fifteen when Patti Smiths and I bought it the day 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:42.640 it came out. But prior to that, the songs that 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:47.640 really resonated with me on radio or um the Banana Splits, 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:53.240 the Archies, Um. You know, it was really kind of crappy, 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:58.080 beautiful pop music, The Monkeys, The Monkeys. I didn't have 0:05:58.120 --> 0:05:59.839 a brother or sister who turned me on to the 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.559 and and and Alice Cooper and um, the Rolling Stones 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.880 of the Beatles, where my bandmates did have that. I 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.000 listened to what kids listened to and what the cereal 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:13.080 boxes were telling you was music. Um, But following that, 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.040 it was really Benny in the Jets by Elton John 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:21.080 and the song um, Hey Kids, boog you too, jump 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:23.040 Up and Down and Blues Wait Shoes rock On by 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:26.680 David which I kind of rewrote as a song drive 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.920 on automatic for the people. It opens, it opens that record, 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:33.880 and um, I rewrote that song. I rewrote a bunch 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:35.920 of songs from the seventies and songs that I remembered. 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.840 Like Everybody Hurts was my take on Love Hurts. Kind 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.920 of a direct left there, but but it turned into 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:47.680 a very different song. And do you learn to play 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:52.599 an instrument? I played accordion when I was well. I 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.760 wanted to play Oregon, but um, we couldn't afford the 0:06:56.839 --> 0:06:59.960 next instrument up, so I wound up with an accordion 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.760 and I played quite well. You weren't accomplished a communists. 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.120 You could have been on Sullivan now when No. But 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.559 but as many people they're entry into music is whether 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:17.000 it's you know, they pick up a guitar and there's 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:22.200 obviously a discipline, a curiosity. I'm always mesmerized by this 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.679 by men and women who they pick up a guitar 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:26.400 when they're nine an ten years or they just start 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.280 to explore that or beyond that. In a more traditional way. 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:32.520 Someone's parents are saying, sit down at that piano and 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.400 you're gonna do this lesson for a year and grind 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.840 them down until they break through and they can really 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:40.640 play the piano. Then they're grateful that they have this 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:45.600 skill that attracts all these people. Um, was there anything 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:48.800 like that for you? There was no formal musical training none, 0:07:49.000 --> 0:07:51.320 So thus you knew is it safe to us him? 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:56.440 Did you always know you wanted to be a singer? No? No, Um. 0:07:56.560 --> 0:07:59.760 The whole the whole idea of punk rock was that 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:01.800 anybody could do this. That it was. It wasn't this 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:06.680 kind of holy handed down from on high talent or skill. Um. 0:08:07.400 --> 0:08:11.000 And I was and remained quite literal. And so when 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:12.800 they said anybody can do this, I said, okay, I'll 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.480 do it. And I guess I was too lazy to learn. 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.440 And you believe that everybody, anybody can do it? Absolutely 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.600 not much. What changed? Everybody can't sing, but I don't 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:25.320 really want to hear it right? Um? What changed? When 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:29.200 did you realize you could sing? Well? Honestly, about ten 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.520 years ago. I realized that my voice was that specific. 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:36.800 I never through most of our career. I didn't understand 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.680 why people liked my voice or thought or could not could. 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:41.840 I just didn't know that my voice was that different. 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:44.920 And it's a very different voice. It's a very recognizable voice. 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.080 So when you were singing in the in the beginning 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:50.240 of your career, it was awful. We were We were terrible. 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:53.199 I mean I sang rockabilly. You mentioned Elvis Presley earlier. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:57.120 I was singing in this kind of hiccup. Elvis Presley's 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.760 style probably inspired by The Cramps. I I loved Lux 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.000 Interior and I loved the Cramps, and I saw them 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.240 perform on I think one of the first shows they 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.600 ever did outside of New York City, and um, and 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.360 I thought he was just amazing and they were incredible. 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.599 So I kind of picked up that rock and belly thing. Um, 0:09:14.640 --> 0:09:19.240 but I don't think I really developed a voice until 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.920 my Well, people that love murmur would argue with that 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.760 but anyway, I didn't feel confident with my voice until 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:30.319 probably the third or fourth album, which was six years in. 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:32.920 When you were at U g A with the other three. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:35.000 What do you think that they saw on you that 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:37.199 they picked you for that job? Well, it sounds arrogant 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:39.559 to say it, but charisma. It was that that that 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.400 Genese quad that we all know when someone walks into 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:44.360 a room or and when I walk into a room, 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.840 I don't have that, but when I'm on stage performing 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:49.520 with that band behind me, it was. It just was 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.640 the chemistry between all of it. Really, when you open 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:53.560 your mouth and saying those songs with those guys, or 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:58.600 something happened you believe that. How did you find each other? Clubs? 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:01.199 Record store? Record store? You saw Mills and a record store. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.800 Peter Buck and he looked really cool and a lot 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:07.720 of people back then didn't look really cool, but he 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:11.599 looked really cool. And um, he would you know, he 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.640 would turn me on to different records that that would 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.280 come into the store and and like Suicide, the first 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:20.120 Suicide album, we hit it off and um, and then 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:22.280 I had to convince him to start a band with me. 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:25.920 What was it about horses that appealed to I can't say, 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:28.319 I mean outside of you know, I had really good taste. 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.040 As it turns out. I mean, it's one of the 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:33.560 greatest records I ever made. And I did buy it 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.520 and listened to it on the day that it was released, 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:39.160 which is kind of crazy. But you've spoken about the 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.559 cover art appealed to you too, Yeah, I mean it's 0:10:41.559 --> 0:10:47.120 an incredible image. But she represented something other and something 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.720 to me alien, and part of that was this this 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:56.360 um uh openness is fluidity about sexuality that I think 0:10:56.480 --> 0:11:00.280 certainly resonated with me and with with millions of other 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.880 people who are questioning their sexuality or or or emerging 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.280 into something that they weren't familiar with or something that 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:10.480 wasn't at the time quite accepted or acceptable. We're doing 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:12.200 her on this show in a kind of a live audience. 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.720 She's a great conversation. Yeah, but um you related to 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:20.079 that area. It's really really the third song I think 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.320 it was, Birdland is the song that touched me in 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.679 a way that um, I don't think anything i'd ever 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.320 touched me before. And I stayed up all night listening 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:29.760 to it. I went to school next day and I said, 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.160 that's that's what I'm gonna do that's that's it. And 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.160 then it took me two years to find people that 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:37.760 I could play with. UM that didn't work out very well. 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.920 I wound up moving to Athens, uh, following my father's retirement, 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:49.840 and and UM started the band. And when you leave Athene, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.560 I mean there's a kind of gestation there in Athens 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:58.160 and performing in clubs in all over Georgia. Are you like, well, 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:00.280 what kind of do what's the what's their? Could you 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:02.120 get into there when you're at that level? Well, it 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:06.240 was early days, um, Uh, so there wasn't really a circuit. 0:12:06.320 --> 0:12:08.440 I mean one was kind of cobbled together by bands 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.640 like RM and Pylon also from Athens, and Black Flag, 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.200 Sonic Youth. Um. All these bands were playing like these 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:20.640 pizza parlors and gay discos and kind of anywhere that 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:23.560 would let a band set up in a corner. Music 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:26.760 is very different than that it is now, and the 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:29.120 way that music is consumed and the way that it's 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:34.160 marketed and so forth. Uh. And most bands, I mean 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.480 yours could be different. I don't know. I want to 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:40.360 find that out. Most bands enter into a business agreement 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.360 in order to take them to the next plateau. That's 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.880 disadvantageous for them. Did that happen to you? No? Um, 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:49.040 when you started signing with people, did you maintain all 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.600 the rights tool you're publishing? Yeah, you did, and we 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.000 own our masters, which Prince never did and he always 0:12:54.040 --> 0:13:00.160 hated before. But um Uh, Peter and Mike particular, you 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:05.200 were encyclopedic about about music, and they had read every 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:09.120 biography and knew every in and out of every story 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.920 of a band that got so far and then it 0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:14.040 fell apart because of this or this reason, and they 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.719 were determined to prevent that from happening to us. Who 0:13:17.760 --> 0:13:19.360 did you sign with? Who was your first label you 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.040 signed with? The first label was UM that we signed 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:27.400 with was I R. S Records, Miles Copeland UM, and 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.480 he was very generous looking back. I mean we didn't 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.120 like each other very much at the time, but he 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:35.880 allowed us. Well, he was a business guy, and I 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:38.319 wasn't that interested in the business part of what was 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.079 going on. I just wanted to do what we did, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:42.800 and I wanted to do it our way. And who 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.880 in the band was taking care of business? Mike? No, 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:49.000 we had Uh. We had a manager and a lawyer 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:52.000 who were helping us. And so nobody in the band. 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:53.959 You had to rely on people you trusted to take 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.559 care of it, and it all worked out well. You 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.160 were happy. We were really lucky in that regard, and 0:14:00.320 --> 0:14:01.880 you know, we we kept our eye on it and 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.560 didn't allow those things that break up bands to break 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:10.120 us up. So we had a really long, great career 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:13.280 and chose the time to disband, and I think we 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:14.920 even did it was the time we most broke up 0:14:14.920 --> 0:14:17.880 from correct, we even did that, right, Yeah, I mean 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:21.920 over and over right. So describe for people who don't 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:26.040 know and I really don't care about the um the 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.880 kind of tedious details of it, in the personal details 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:30.840 of it. But you know, you look at a movie 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.640 like Let It Be, and you don't see people storming out, 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:36.720 you don't see people yelling at each other, you don't 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:40.720 see the negativity they've obviously uh left that out or 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.600 they was never captured on camera. When people are making 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:45.640 an album and there's that kind of attention for people 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:50.000 don't understand the music business, particularly rock and roll business, 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:54.160 what typically happens? What do people get? Well, I can't conflict. 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:57.040 I've never seen Let It Be for you. I'm not 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.360 a giant fan but um, but um, you know, a 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:02.320 wet fan. I'm not a giant fan of the Beatles. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.840 I mean I understand, I recognized what they did, but 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:07.440 I never they never touched me from the beginning, and 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:09.640 so I never kind of you know, I feel the 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:11.680 same way about Captain Beefheart and I just never really 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:14.560 was my thing. Um, but they wrote some good songs, 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:16.760 that's for sure. I mean, let it be might have 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:19.560 been before Reality TV or or it was was that 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:23.600 before after um American Family know that? Yeah, that was 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:27.160 that was the early seven what's the one that was 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.360 done about Bob Dylan? And um was that Penna Baker 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:32.320 that followed Bob Dylan? And there were there was there 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.160 was some kind of people walking out of rooms and 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.960 insulting each other and what have you. When you had 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.040 conflicts with people you make music with, what is the conflict? 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.400 But typically I I mean I was very young and 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:44.800 and and um and very shy, and so I would 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:46.280 just shut down. I would go into a kind of 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.000 a quiet you know, I would I would be silent 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:51.400 for three days, which nobody wanted because it made it. 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.640 It made everything impossible. Those guys, you know, we're we're 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.360 more loud and um often got their way, but often 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.840 it kind of pulled me out of you know, we're 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.480 in a in a in a band dynamic. Everyone's got 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.240 an idea, in an opinion. And what happened, what happens 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:11.680 when it all comes together, is this this beautiful compromise 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:16.360 where one person over kind of overseas one part, another 0:16:16.400 --> 0:16:20.000 overseas another part. Somehow it all works. And that's the 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:24.760 conductor who's that's chemistry. So that chemistry served us pretty 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:27.680 well for most of her career. But but it was, 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.000 you know, it was at times very very difficult, and 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:35.240 and and and and I'm proud of the the times 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:38.960 that we failed. We failed horribly and but we all know, 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:40.800 you know, we didn't blame the other guy. We didn't 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:46.200 blame the industry, we didn't blame radio. We just agreed 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:48.560 that we had not made the best record or the 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.400 best song or the best recording. Some of my favorite 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:56.480 recordings of our work is not what wound up on records, 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.760 but what wound up in live performances. So Jah, the 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:03.000 song Lotus is a good example of a song that 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:05.560 we were called Lotuses. Lotus is the name of the song, 0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.560 and it's a good song, but it's way too long 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.399 on the record. It's too slow, which is my fault. 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.159 And we recorded it and mixed it at a time 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:15.919 when we weren't really talking to each other, so it 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.720 was very difficult to get um to to to arrive 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.879 at a place that made sense. Live the song is 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:26.560 faster and we're adrenaline because we're performing it in front 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:30.439 of people or whatever, and um and it got a 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.919 lot better. It got a real lot better. So for 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:35.920 my money, you know, the recording of that song is 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.320 kind of dis interesting document of of a moment in time. 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:43.200 But the but but the real song emerged in live performance. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.600 I mean, because I don't I don't know anything about this, 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.879 and I always see what I see in films or 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.560 television or what I have here. Is there a producer 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.600 or like who decides, especially in the early days before 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.440 you become big stars, like who's sitting there sitting They're going, well, 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.600 you're gonna come in here and will drop that note 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:04.080 down a little bit. Who's who's the decider? We always 0:18:04.359 --> 0:18:07.320 we we always had finals, We always had final cut 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.280 on everything. So all of our records were produced with 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.680 a producer, but we were co producing, so the band 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.199 had the final saying final cut. Was there one of 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:18.760 you who had a better ear than the other in 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:22.119 terms of how this music should be mixed? Do somebody 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:26.960 have a gift for that? Right? Everybody had an opinion, sadly, 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.560 m did you like performing live? I loved it? What's 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:36.879 the first time you performed live? Because Murmur becomes the 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.360 album of the year from Rolling Stone, you beat out Thriller. 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.080 How did you feel about that? I wanted to crawl 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.639 into a hole one during myself. Don't want to be famous. No, 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.159 I wanted to be famous, But but my idea you 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:55.159 did want to be famous. My idea of fame was 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.320 this kind of teenage fantasy version of it. It didn't 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:00.800 require all the work and all the scrutiny and all 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:03.600 the kind of like all the stuff, Like being able 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:04.800 to look you in the eye and sit here and 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:07.920 talk about myself is something that it took decades for 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:09.600 me to be able to do, and that that's not 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:14.679 my nature. But um, why do you think it's not 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:19.560 your nature? Well, I mean you are a shy person. Yeah, yeah, 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.320 I still am. But I've I've managed, over the course 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.679 of fifty six years to kind of emerge. I always 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.760 say to people on a person of adulthood, but I 0:19:26.800 --> 0:19:28.720 say to people, I think I am a shy person, 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:30.080 and they look at me to go, you're kidding and 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.639 out of your mind. Just overcame it so extraordinarily. The 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:35.320 thing you figure out when you're around a lot of 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:39.159 creative people is is that if you're a creator, you 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:41.200 have to create. It's not a choice. It's not something 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.120 that you do because you want to be famous. It's 0:19:43.119 --> 0:19:45.880 something that or because you want to be richer, because 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:47.720 you want to be recognized for something, for this or 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:51.800 that you create because you have to. And maybe that's 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.679 what separates the weak from the chaff when it comes 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:59.200 to um a culture that now allows people to be 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:02.680 famous just for fact of being famous, or that you're 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.359 you're acknowledged and recognized for something other than a talent 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.160 or a thing that you can offer that's unique or interesting. 0:20:10.680 --> 0:20:14.439 One time I did a concert style version of South 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:18.000 Pacific and it was Reba McIntyre and Brian Stokes Mitchell 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:20.359 are the leads, and we're there and Paul Jim and 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:22.840 Yanni's there conducting this orchestra. It was it was it 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:26.040 was like a ninety piece orchestra and like, Okay, we're ready, 0:20:26.040 --> 0:20:27.439 We're gonna be heard and we're gonna sing, and they 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:30.160 call up someone, so we're gonna sing bally High and 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:34.200 also this orchestra wild be like Bannan. The music would 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.600 play behind I'm sitting there in a chair, the orchestras 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:38.560 five behind me, and I get this chill that just 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:41.840 shoots right up my skull, like, oh my god, this 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.159 is music. You know, what was the first time you 0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.119 stepped out in front of a stadium and crab? What 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.760 was your first big first moment? What was your first 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.560 pole Jim and Yanni momentum. We one of the one 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.040 of the things that Miles Copeland, who had I R. 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:58.119 S Records, did was he put us on a um 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:01.920 on a bill at Chase Stadium, UH with Joan Jett 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.000 and the Black Hearts opening for the Police. So we 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:08.959 played sixty people. We had, we played five songs. I 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:10.480 said I would do it if I could wear a 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.680 wedding dress someone someone had offered me. Someone said I 0:21:13.880 --> 0:21:16.320 dare you for a hundred dollars, which at the time 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.439 was a very very large amount of money to me, 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:21.040 I dare you to wear a wedding dress, she's taking them. 0:21:21.080 --> 0:21:23.440 I said, I'm gonna do it. So I went looking 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:25.920 for a wedding I couldn't find one. I found a tuxedo, 0:21:26.000 --> 0:21:29.920 so I wore a tuxedo instead of really ratty tuxedo. 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:31.800 Did you tell the guys in the band you would 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:33.760