1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: A Zone Media. Hello and welcome to Better Offline. I'm 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: your host ed ZiT Troun and this is the finale 3 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: of this year. Even though you're hearing it in twenty 4 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: twenty five, I need you to just mentally imagine it's 5 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. I did my best, Okay, anyway, In 6 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: the last episode, I talked about the scale of the 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: rot economy and specifically the practical elements and the practical 8 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: results of growth at all costs thinking, And in this one, 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: I want to talk about how we fight back. Ideas 10 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: are powerful and things change as silly as it sounds 11 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: from the regular repetition, and the names of those responsible 12 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: and clear descriptions of the things they've done to us. Now, 13 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, I've written and spoken a lot about the 14 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: rot economy, how the growth at all cost mindset fucks 15 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: things up, and it's what directly leads tech companies to 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: make their products worse. But what I've tried to do 17 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,639 Speaker 1: in these episodes is quantify the scale, both the damage 18 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: it's caused and the billions of people it affects every day. 19 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: Everything I've discussed around the chaos and the pain of 20 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: the Internet is a result of corporations and private equity 21 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: firms buying media properties and immediately trying to make them grow, 22 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,800 Speaker 1: each in wildly different ways, all clamoring to be the 23 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:22,759 Speaker 1: next New York Times of Variety or other legacy media brand, 24 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: despite the fact that those brands already exist and the 25 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: ideas for competing with them usually are built on these 26 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 1: unsustainably large staffs and expensive consultants telling you to hire 27 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: more people. Almost every single store you visit on the 28 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: Internet has this massive data layer on the background that 29 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: feeds them data about what's popular or where people are 30 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: spending time on the sites, and will turn and change 31 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: things about their designed to subtly encourage you to buy 32 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: more staff, trapping you there also that more money comes 33 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,639 Speaker 1: out no matter what the cost, even if it's harder 34 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: to find the things you actually want, even if the 35 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: data isn't personalized, it's still quite powerful, and it turns 36 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:00,919 Speaker 1: so many experiences inside and outside shopping and social media 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: and the news into these subtle, horrible manipulations. Every single 38 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: weird thing that you've experienced with an app or service 39 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: online is the dreadhand of the rot economy, the gravitational 40 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 1: pull of growth that demands upon you the user to 41 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: do something something for the company. And when everybody is 42 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: trying to chase growth, nobody is thinking stability. And because 43 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: everybody is trying to grow, everybody sort of copies everybody 44 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: else's ideas, which is why we see micro transactions and 45 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: invasive ads and annoying tricks that all kind of feel 46 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 1: the same way in everything, though they're all subtly different 47 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: and customized just for that one app. It's exhausting. Now 48 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: for a while I've had the rot economy compared to 49 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: Corey doctor O's excellent incitification theory. I think it's a 50 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: great time to compare and separate the two because I 51 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: think they can live together quite well. And also Corey 52 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,080 Speaker 1: is exceedingly smart, and I put a great deal of 53 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:57,519 Speaker 1: value in his thoughts. To quote Corey in the Financial Times, 54 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 1: and certification is his theory explaining how the end that 55 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: was colonized by platforms, why all of those platforms are 56 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: degrading so quickly and thoroughly, why it matters, and what 57 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: we can do about it. And I'll link to these 58 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: in the show notes. He describes the first three stages 59 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 1: of the climb. First, platforms are good to their users, 60 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: then they abuse their users to make things better for 61 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: their business customers. Finally, they abuse those business customers to 62 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: claw back all the value for themselves. Now I agree 63 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: with Corey in some levels, but I believe he gives 64 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: far more credit to the platforms in question than they 65 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: deserve and sees far more intentional strategy than really exist. 66 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: I fundamentally disagree about the business customers even being some 67 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: elevated class in the equation. As we've seen in the 68 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: Google Ads trial, Google didn't really give a shit about 69 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: his business customers to begin with, and they've always sawt 70 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: a monopoly and made things worse for whoever it needed 71 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: to as a means of increasing growth. Maybe I'm just 72 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: playing semantics though. However, Corey's theory lacks a real perpetrator 73 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: beyond corporations that naturally say, all right, time for some initification. 74 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: Watch this again. I don't think it's that intentional. Maybe 75 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: it's an effect, Maybe it's a movement, maybe it's a 76 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: naturally occurring thing. Where the rot economy separates is that 77 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: growth is in and of itself the force that drives 78 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: companies to in shitify, while in hitification really fits across 79 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: companies and fits there neatly like Spotify and Meta in 80 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: their add focus business models. It doesn't really make sense 81 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: when it comes to things where there isn't a clear 82 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: split between business and consumers, like Microsoft or Salesforce, because 83 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: in citification is ultimately one part of the larger rot economy, 84 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: where everything must grow forever, whether it's intech or not, 85 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: and I believe the phenomenon that captures both is a 86 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: direct result of the work of men like Jack Welch 87 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: and Milton Friedman. Go back and listen to the shareholder 88 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: of supremacy if you hadn't. The rot economy is selfish 89 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: and potently neoliberal corporations are bowed down to like God's 90 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: the powerful only seek more at all times, at all costs, 91 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: even if said cost is that the company might eventually 92 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: die because we burned out any value it actually has, 93 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: or people are harmed constantly whenever they pick up their phone. 94 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: The rot economy is neoliberalism's true innovation, a kind of 95 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: economic cancer that we've he has few reasons to exist 96 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: beyond more and a few justifications beyond If we don't 97 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: let it keep growing, then everybody's pensions might blow up. 98 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: To be clear, corey is for the most part, Right 99 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: in Certification successfully encapsulates how the modern web was destroyed 100 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 1: in a way that nobody really has I'm exceedingly grateful 101 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: for Corey's work, and I think having him around is 102 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: so good for society. I was so happy to have 103 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: him on an episode a few months ago, and I 104 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: look forward to having him again. He's also a lovely fella, 105 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: and I really think that in Certification applies in a 106 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: wide ranging way to a wide amount of tech companies 107 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:36,559 Speaker 1: and effects. There's also a great thing in the Vaults 108 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: newsletter that old link about in Certification within climate, for example, 109 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,920 Speaker 1: Corey's brilliant. However, I believe the wider problem is bigger 110 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: and the costs are far greater. It isn't that everything 111 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: is in shitified. It's that everybody's pursuit of growth has 112 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: changed the incentive behind how we generate value in the world, 113 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: and software enables a specific kind of growth lust by 114 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: creating virtual nation states with their own digital deaths. While 115 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: laws may stop Meta from tearing up people's houses surrounding 116 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: its offices in one hack away, it can happily reroute 117 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: traffic and engagement on Facebook and Instagram to make things 118 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: in iota more profitable, and there's no government institution that's 119 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: sitting around thinking, huh is this bad? Is this bad 120 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: for people? Now? The rot economy isn't just growth or 121 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 1: cost thinking. It's a kind of secular religion, something to 122 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: believe in that isn't really connected to anything other than more, 123 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: And it's that everything and anything can be more, should 124 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: be more, must be more. That we're only defined by 125 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: our pursuit of more growth, and that something that isn't 126 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: growing isn't alive, and as a result inferior. I'm not 127 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: saying this is how everybody thinks, but I'm convinced that 128 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 1: everybody is burdened by the rot economy, and that digital 129 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: ecosystems allow the poison of growth to find new and 130 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: more destructive ways to dilute a human being to a 131 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: series of numbers that can be made to grow or 132 00:06:55,839 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: contract in the pursuit of capital. Almost every corner of 133 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 1: our lives has been turned into some sort of number, 134 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: and increasing that number is important to us bank account 135 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: balance is sure, but also engagement numbers follow us number 136 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: of emails sent and received, open rates on newsletters, how 137 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: many times something has been viewed, all numbers set by 138 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: other people that we live our lives by while barely 139 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: understanding what they mean or how they alter our behavior. 140 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: Human beings thrive on ways to define themselves, but metrics 141 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: often rob us of our individuality. Products that boil us 142 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: down to metrics are likely to fail to account for 143 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: the true depth of anything we are actually doing, or 144 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: anything they're actually capturing. The change in incentives towards driving 145 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: more growth actively pushes out those with long term thinking. 146 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: It encourages hiring people who see growth as the driver 147 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: of a company's success, and in turn investment research and 148 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: development into mechanisms of growth, which may sometimes be things 149 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: that help you, but that isn't necessarily the reason they're 150 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 1: doing it. Organizational culture and hiring stops prioritizing people that 151 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: fixed customer problems or even understand them, because that's not 152 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: really the priority, nor how one may of business continue 153 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: to grow. And I think the rot economies a social 154 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: thing as well. We're all pushed towards growth, personal growth, 155 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: professional growth, growth in our network and our societal status, 156 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: and the terms of this growth they're often set by 157 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: platforms and media outlets that are in turn pursuing their 158 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: own growth. And as I've discussed, the way the terms 159 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: of our growth is framed is almost entirely through a 160 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: digital ecosystem of warring intents and different ways of pursuing 161 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: and promoting growth, some ethical, but many not. Societal and 162 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: cultural pressure is nothing new, but the ways we experience 163 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 1: it are now elaborate and chaotic. Our relationships professional, personal, 164 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: and romantic a process through the fun house mirror of 165 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: the platforms changing in ways both subtle and evert based 166 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: on the signals are received and the people we care about, 167 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: each one twisted and processed the lens of a product 168 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: manager and a growth hacker who may not really care 169 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: about what we're doing other than that we're doing it. 170 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 1: Changes to these platforms, even subtle ones, actively change the 171 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: lives of billions of people, and it feels that we 172 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: talk about it like being online is some hobbyist peersuit 173 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: rather than something that many people do more than seeing 174 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: real people in the real world. I believe that we 175 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: exist in a continual tension with the rot economy and 176 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: the growth of all costs mindset. I believe that the 177 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: friction we feel on platforms and apps between what we 178 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: want to do and what the app wants us to 179 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 1: do is one of the most underdiscussed and significant culture 180 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: of phenomena where we, despite being customers, are continually berated 181 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: and conned and swindled and fucked. I believe billions of 182 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: people are in active combat with their devices every day, 183 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: swiping away notifications, dodging intrusive apps, agreeing to privacy policies 184 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: that they don't understand, desperately trying to find an option 185 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 1: they used that has been moved because the product manager 186 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: has decided it needed to be somewhere else. I realize 187 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 1: it's tough to conceptualize because it's so ubiquitous, But how 188 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: much do you fight with your computer and smartphone every day? 189 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: How many times does something break? How many times have 190 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 1: you downloaded an app and found that it didn't really 191 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: do the thing you wanted it to. How many times 192 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: have you wanted to do something simple and found that 193 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 1: it's actually really annoying. How much of your life is 194 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: dodging digital debris, avoiding scams, ads, apps that demand permissions, 195 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 1: and endless goddamn menu options that bury the simple things 196 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: that you want to do. It's like I said, you're 197 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,439 Speaker 1: the victim of a scam. You've spent years of your 198 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: life explaining to yourself and others that this is just 199 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: how things are, accepting conditions that are inherently exploitive and abusive. 200 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: You are more than likely not deficient, stupid, or behind 201 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: the times, and even if you are, there shouldn't be 202 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: a multi trillion dollar ecosystem built to monetize your ignorance, 203 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: and it's time to start holding those responsible accountable. I'm 204 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: fairly regularly asked why all of this matters to me 205 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: so much, so as I wrap up the year, I'm 206 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: going to try and answer that question, explain why it 207 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: is I do what I do, all right, I spend 208 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: a lot time as own as a kid. I wasn't popular. 209 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: Actually that isn't really accurate, because that would suggest I 210 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: had friends. I didn't really had friends. I had some 211 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: people I knew, like similar people who were existed to 212 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 1: be bullied. I'm not trying to be modeling here, I'm 213 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: just describing the terms. I was insular. I was scared 214 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,959 Speaker 1: of the world. I felt ostracized, unnoticed that many teenagers do, 215 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: and I felt like I was out of place in humanity, 216 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: and it really like weighed on my soul and the 217 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: only place I found any kind of community or any 218 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: place I could build an identity was being online. My 219 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: life was an ear is defined by technology, and I'm 220 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: not ashamed of that. A lot of people talk about, oh, 221 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: people are online too much, not even necessarily talking about me, 222 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: or how the internet hurts you and it's this, and 223 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: it hurts you because of the platforms. But I believe 224 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: at scale, the internet is actually quite beautiful. Had social 225 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: networking not come along, I'm not confident I'd have made many, 226 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: if any, of the friendships I have today, or really 227 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: any friendships of any kind. For the first twenty two 228 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: two years of my life, I really struggled to make 229 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: friends in the real world for a number of reasons, 230 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: many of them my fault, by the way. But I 231 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: made so many online and that became a bridge to 232 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: making real friendships. I kept and I nurtured friendships, indeed 233 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,040 Speaker 1: with people thousands of miles away, and my shyness that 234 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: I had as a person became less of an issue 235 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: when I could avoid the trouble saying hey, I'm a 236 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: part that really got in my way. Without the Internet, 237 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: I'd probably be like a resentful hermit. I'd be disconnected 238 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: from humanity. That'd be just these layers of scar tissue 239 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: over whatever neurodivergent or unfortunate habits had gained from a child, 240 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: and I mostly spent alone. I don't want you to 241 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: feel sorry for me. By the way, none of that 242 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: was about me being sad. It's actually really trying to 243 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,079 Speaker 1: explain something joyous, and that's a big part of who 244 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 1: I am. Technology is a big part of who I am. So, 245 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,559 Speaker 1: like I said, don't feel sorry for me. Tech allowed 246 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: me to thrive. I have a business, I have an 247 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: upcoming book, the newsletter, I have this podcast. I had 248 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: these wonderful, beautiful friends I deeply love, and if you're 249 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: wondering if it's you, it is you. I love you. 250 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: And these people have come pretty much exclusively through technology 251 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: of some sort, like a social network or a result 252 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,080 Speaker 1: of a digital connection of some kind. And I'm immensely 253 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 1: grateful for everything I have, and I'm grateful that technology 254 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: allowed me to live this full and happy life. And 255 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: I imagine many of you feel the same way. Your 256 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: frustrations aren't just about the apps being bad, but the 257 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: internet has a goodness to it. It has a value. 258 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: Otherwise we wouldn't stick our hands in the box that 259 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: the bene jesiit gives us every morning. And Techer's found 260 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: so many ways to make our lives better, perhaps more 261 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 1: in some cases than others. But I'm not gonna lie 262 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: and pretend, and I don't love technology. I think that 263 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: that wouldn't serve you or serve anyone. And I think 264 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: this kind of noxious earth or texts bad. It isn't 265 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: all bad, but the people running it are. The rotten 266 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: economy has fucked up tex so badly. But in the 267 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: process of doing this podcast, of writing my newsletter, it's 268 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 1: just maybe intimately aware of thetuitous, avaricious and intentional harm 269 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: that these people are causing, that the people running the 270 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: tech industry have caused to their customers, and this horrifying 271 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: and selfish world they've made, and the ruinous consequences that followed, 272 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 1: the things that I've watched happen this year alone, which 273 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: have at times been in enumeration of about a decade 274 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: of rot. They've turned my god damn stomach. You know 275 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: what's also done that the outright cowardice of some people 276 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 1: that claim to inform the public but choose instead to 277 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: reinforce the structures of the powerful And a little side 278 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: note to my good friend Casey Newton right now, you 279 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: should all go and look up his thing about the 280 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: phony comforts of AI Skeptics where he bags on Gary Marcus. 281 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: Why are you bagging on Gary Marcus, Casey, you fucking coward. 282 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: This piece attacked AI's skeptics with the flimsiest stuff. Casey 283 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 1: Newton has an audience above one hundred thousand people that 284 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: he's ostensibly informing. This stuff hurts people. Having popular journalists 285 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: that won't enumerate the damage being done, that don't won't 286 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: give the honest truth about things. It's disgusting. It turns 287 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: my stomach. And as these two part episodes have shown 288 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: you the scale of damage done by people like Facebook, 289 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: like Mark Zuckerberg, Casey's good friend, it's disgusting. Okay, wheeling 290 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 1: that back. By the way, I don't know if they're 291 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: good friends, but I know they text. Anyway, back to 292 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: the show. I'll put my bitch first aside. Look, I'm 293 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 1: a user. I'm a guy with a podcast and a newsletter. 294 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: But behind the mic and the keyboard, I'm a person 295 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: that uses the same services as you do, and I 296 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: see the shit done to us and I just feel 297 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: poison in my veins. I'm not holding back, as you've 298 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: kind of worked out by now we're like sixty episodes in. 299 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: I don't think you should either. What's being done to 300 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: us isn't just unfair, it's last and us. It's cruel, 301 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: it's exploitative, it's morally wrong. Some may try and dismiss 302 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: what I'm saying as just social media. It's just how 303 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: apps work, and if that's what you truly think, you're 304 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: either a beaten dog or a willing or unwilling operative 305 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 1: for people running a con. I will never forgive these 306 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: people for what they've done to the computer. And the 307 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: more I learn about both their intentions and the actions 308 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: they've taken, the more certain I become that these people 309 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: are unrepentant, and then their greed will never be sated. 310 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: I've watched them take the things that made me human, 311 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: social networking, digital communities, apps, and the other connecting fabric 312 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: of our digital lives and turn them into devices of torture, 313 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: profitable mechanisms of abuse. And I find it disgusting how 314 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: many reporters seem to believe it's their responsibility to thank 315 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: them and explain why it's good that this is happening 316 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: to their readers. And let's run down the scumbags, shall we. 317 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: Sam Altman's a goddamn con artist. He's a liar and 318 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: a sleazy carnival barker who would burn our planet to 319 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: the ground, steal from millions of people, and burn billions 320 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: of dollars in pursuit of power. And I believe the 321 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: same can be said of people like Dario Amadayo Vanthropik 322 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: and Mustafasuliman of Microsoft. Tim Cook of Apple, he's a 323 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: wolf in sheep's clothing. He slowly allows the rock to 324 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: seep into Apple's products. Apple intelligence is goddamn awful. It sucks. 325 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: It gets in the way. The summer suck, Image playground sucks. 326 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: Everyone saying this doesn't suck is up their own asshole. 327 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: They need to look look at the actual products. They 328 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 1: don't work, and they've slowly been adding these bothersome subscription 329 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: options and they chip away at the user experience. The 330 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: one company that I really didn't want to do this. 331 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: And yet let's take a step back to the beginning 332 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: of the show. Apple's app store and its repeated support 333 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: of exploitative micro transaction laid mobile games built to create 334 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: gambling like addiction in adults and children alike. They make 335 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: billions of dollars off of them, and because Apple's products 336 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: are less shitty, they get a much easier time. Now 337 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 1: let's talk about two of my phase my besties. Now, 338 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: I hold Sundhar Peshai in a certain kind of esteem, 339 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: by which I believe that Sundar Pieshai of Google is 340 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,439 Speaker 1: the Henry Kissinger of technology, a glossy executive that escapes 341 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: blamed despite having caused harm on a global scale. The 342 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: destruction of Google Search at the hands of Sundhar Peshai 343 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 1: and Prabagar Ragavan should be written about like a war crime, 344 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 1: and those responsible treated as such. And by the way, Prabagar, 345 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: if you're hearing this, hello baby, I love you. I 346 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: love saying your name, and I'm going to be saying 347 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: it forever. Now let's get to Microsoft. Satch in Adela 348 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: has aggressively expanded Microsoft's various monopolies, the most egregious of which, 349 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: by the way, is the Microsoft three sixty five Suite, 350 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: which is a monopoly over business software that everyone kind 351 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: of hates. The Microsoft prices to undercut the competition, effectively 352 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: setting conditions of most business software is either cheaper than 353 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: Microsoft or slightly better than Microsoft. Nadella has overseen layoffs 354 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,360 Speaker 1: of tens of thousands of people in the last three 355 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: years alone, and despite his bullshit growth mindset culture, he 356 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 1: treats employees and customers as equally disposable. And of course 357 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: he's the guy that has made open AI happen, which 358 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: in turn means he's responsible for generative AI at scale. 359 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: And let's end with metas Mark Zuckerberg, who is a 360 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: putrid ghoul that has overseen the growth and proliferation of 361 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: some of the single most abusive and manipulative software in 362 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: the world. Meta has grown to a market cap of 363 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,120 Speaker 1: one point five trillion dollars by intentionally making the experience 364 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: on Instagram and Facebook worse, intentionally frustrating and harming billions 365 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: of people, actively into fearing with the fabric of society. 366 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: These are the people in charge. These are the people 367 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,240 Speaker 1: running the tech industry. These are the people who make 368 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 1: the decisions that affect billions of people every minute of 369 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: every day, and their decision making is so flagrantly selfish 370 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: and abusive that I'm regularly astonished by how little criticism 371 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: they receive. These men lace our digital lives with asbestos 372 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: and get told their geniuses for doing so because money 373 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: comes out. But the truth is I don't know or 374 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: care whether these men know who I am or read 375 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: my work, because I only care that you do. I 376 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: don't give a shit if Sam Ortman Mark Zuckerberg knows 377 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: my name. I don't care about their riches or their achievements. 378 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: I care that when given so many resources, such privilege, 379 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: and such opportunity to change the world, they chose to 380 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: make it worse. These men are tantamount to war criminals. 381 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: Except in thirty years, Mark Zuckerberg may still be seen 382 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: as a success, though I will spend the rest of 383 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: my life telling you the damage he's caused. I care 384 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: about you, the user, the person listening to, the person 385 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 1: that may have felt stupid or deficient or ignorant, all 386 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: because the services you pay for or that monetize you 387 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: have been intentionally rigged against you. You aren't the failure 388 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: the services, the devices, and the executives are. If you 389 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: cannot see the significance of the problems I discuss every week, 390 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 1: the sheer scale of the rot, the sheer damage caused 391 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 1: by unregulated and unrepentant managerial parasites. You are living in 392 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: a fantasy world, and I both envy and worry about you. 393 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:29,919 Speaker 1: You're the frog and the part, and trust me, the 394 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: stoves on twenty twenty five will be the year of chaos, fear, 395 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: and a deficit of hope. But I will spend every 396 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: breath I have telling you what I believe in, telling 397 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: you that I care and that you are not alone. 398 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: For years, I've watched the destruction of the services and 399 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: the mechanisms that are responsible for allowing me to have 400 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 1: a normal life, to thrive, to be able to speak 401 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: with a voice that was truly mine. I've watched them 402 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: burn or worse, turned into these abominable growth vehicles, men 403 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 1: disconnected from society and humanity. I owe my life to 404 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 1: an inn. I've watched turned into these abuse factories worth billions, 405 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: if not trillions of dollars, and I've watched the people 406 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: responsible get glad handled and applauded. I will scream at 407 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: them into my dying fucking breath. I have had a 408 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: blessed life, and I'm lucky that I wasn't born even 409 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: a year earlier or later. But the way I've grown 410 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: up and seen things changed. Has allowed me to fully 411 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: comprehend how much damage is being done today and how 412 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,239 Speaker 1: much worse is to come if we don't hold these 413 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: people accountable. The least they deserve is a spoken or 414 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: written record of their sins, and the least you deserve 415 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: is to be reminded that you are the victim. I 416 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: don't think you realize how powerful it is being armed 417 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: with knowledge, the clarity of what's being done to you 418 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,239 Speaker 1: and why, and the names of the people responsible. This 419 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: is an invisible war and a series of invisible war 420 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:04,960 Speaker 1: crimes perpetuated against billions of people in a trillion different ways, 421 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: every moment of every day, and it's everywhere a constant 422 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: in our lives, which makes enumerating and conceptualizing it difficult. 423 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: But you can help you Talking about the truth behind 424 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: generative AI or the harms of Facebook or the gratuitous 425 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: destruction of Google Search will change things, because these people 426 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: are unprepared for a public that knows both what they've 427 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 1: done and they're sickening loaths some selfish and greedy intentions. 428 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: Saying prabagar Ragavan is both very fun. Try it yourself, 429 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: Say prabagar Ragavan and the shower on the toilet probagar 430 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: Ragavan in an NFL game, And then when someone says 431 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: OHO's propagar Ragavan, you say, well, he's the guy who 432 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: destroyed Google Search. No, look, I get it, it's just talking, right. 433 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: But the way that people disconnect from these services and 434 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: take a stand starts with the clear discussion of the 435 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: problem and reframing. I don't get technology to prabagar Ragavan 436 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: destroy Google Search. It spreads through groups, organizations, and governments. 437 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: It gets somewhere. Most people, believe it or not, don't 438 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: know about the raw economy or about the people responsible, 439 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 1: and assume they got older rather than technology getting worse. Really, 440 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: this is a moment of solidarity. We're all harmed by 441 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: the row economy. We're all victims, and it takes true 442 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: opulence to escape it. And I'm guessing you don't have it. 443 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 1: I certainly don't. But talking about it, refusing to go quietly, 444 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: refusing to slow up down the slot willingly or pleasantly 445 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: is enough. The conversations are getting louder, the anger is 446 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: getting too hard to ignore. These companies will be forced 447 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 1: to change through public pressure and the knowledge of their 448 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: deeds and pressure on the media. Outlets you read and 449 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: listen to that choose willingly to prop them up. Holding 450 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,439 Speaker 1: these people to a higher standard at scale is what 451 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: brings about change. Be the wrench in the machine. Be 452 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: the person that explains to a friend why Facebook sucks 453 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: now and who chose to make it suck. Adam Masseri, 454 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 1: By the way, it's Adam Massari, Mark Zuckerberg and the 455 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: rest of the growth team. Naomi Glitz another great one 456 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: as well, Javier Olivan, They're all in. Go listen to 457 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: the episode and tell your friends. Be the person to 458 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: explain who Probago Ragavan is and what his role was 459 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 1: in making Google Search worse. Say it, say his name 460 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: with your friends. Say it to the mailman. Be the 461 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: person who tells people that Sam Altman burns five billion 462 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: dollars a year on unsustainable software that destroys the environment 463 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,360 Speaker 1: and is built upon the largest scale larceny of creative 464 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: works ever to happen. Or because he's desperate for power. 465 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: He is already a billionaire. He was already there. Because 466 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: every time you do this, you destabilize them. They've succeeded 467 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: in a decades long marketing campaign where tech people get 468 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: called geniuses for making things that are necessary to function 469 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: in society, and they're making them worse. You can change that. 470 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: I also want to be clear, I don't give a 471 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: shit if you signed me. It's cool if you say 472 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: where you found it, but I really don't care. I 473 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: really don't tell people. That's what matters. Tell everybody, spread 474 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: the word. You yourself can be a little better offline. 475 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: I don't mean that as a pump, but you know 476 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 1: what I mean. Spread the blood the word. Say what 477 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: they've done, Say their names, Say their names again and 478 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: again and again, so it becomes a contagion. They twisted 479 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: and broken and hyper monetized everything, how you make friends, 480 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: how you fall in love, how you bank, how you 481 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,160 Speaker 1: listen to music, how you find information. Never let their 482 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: names be spoken without disgust. Be the sampaper in their 483 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: veins and the graffiti on their fucking legacies. I'm sick 484 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: of it. I'm sick of it, And if you're with me, 485 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 1: just tell people. Don't even talk about me. I'm not important. 486 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 1: What's important is that you know, and the others know too, 487 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: and you'll feel a lot of dread going into the 488 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: next year. But that's what the darkness wants. That's what 489 00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: authoritarianism craves hopelessness, emptiness, and energy deficit that anchors you 490 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: to the earth. And I can't promise you that I'm 491 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: fixing anything with a podcast. I can't promise you what 492 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: I'm saying is going to fix you in any way. 493 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: But I hope it at least invigorates you. I hope 494 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: it makes you feel less alone. I hope you know 495 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 1: that others feel the way you do too, and that 496 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: someone somewhere is outraged on your behalf because I am. 497 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: Now we're going to get to the schmaltzy part, because 498 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: I have to. I'm a big emotional guy. Last year 499 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: in my life's being incredible. I've been very lucky to 500 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:03,879 Speaker 1: do this show. It's allowed me to meet wonderful people 501 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 1: that I adore, and I'm going to talk about them now. 502 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: And if you don't like it, what's wrong with you? 503 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: I get so angry. Let me be happy for a 504 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 1: moment and be happy for these people. They're absolutely wonderful. 505 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: A year in, I want to thank Sophie Lichtman and 506 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: Robert Evans for having faith in me to do this. 507 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: I stood alone in my kitchen in February and I 508 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,480 Speaker 1: was like, pacing around, and I was like, I don't 509 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 1: know what I'm going to do, but I'm not going 510 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: to tell them because they contracted me and I mostly 511 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,959 Speaker 1: worked it out as it went along, and they were 512 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: extremely supportive and I wasn't sure where I would take this, 513 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: but both of them told me to go as hard 514 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: as I needed to. However, I wanted to not once 515 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: have either of them said nah, or hey, Yed, I 516 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: don't know about this, or head, can you change this, 517 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: except in one episode's case, where it was actually the 518 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: pilots and it needed a re recording. It was not 519 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: good enough. But that's what they're there for. They've humored 520 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: these insane five hundred word rants that like eleven PM 521 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: on a Tuesday, where I'm like, I think that this 522 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: should happen, and then they've taken these concepts and being like, hey, 523 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: why don't you do this? But fundamentally they have and 524 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 1: all of cool so media has been insanely supportive, both 525 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: of the ideas but also the outrage and also the 526 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: true support they've given me to do this is creative 527 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: expression but also a value generating podcast has been incredible 528 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: and regardless of how you feel about what they do, 529 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: there really isn't anything out there like better Offline. It's 530 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: a result of having the kind of an army behind me, 531 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: both as part of the show and these people who 532 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: just show me incredible love, who I adore so much 533 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,240 Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful for. And you're just gonna have 534 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: to sit there and let me list them. And if 535 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: you don't like it, you need to tell your friends 536 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: you love them instead. Pause the show, call your mum, 537 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 1: call your friends, tell everyone you know you love them. Well, 538 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: life is short, but let's start with the thanks. I 539 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: want to thank Mattisowski, Ian Johnson and Daniel Goodman for 540 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: producing the show. Mattasowski is the person who will hear 541 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: this first, and he also so here's the cuts between 542 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: them where I'm swearing and I mess up really obvious words. 543 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: He's They're all amazing, the actual iHeartRadio producers are angels, 544 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: all of them. They care so much about this. Daniel 545 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: Goodman as well, has been incredible getting me in this 546 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: studios in New York. There's gonna be a lot more 547 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 1: of that next year, as I'm going to be in 548 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: New York way more say hello. I of course want 549 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: to thank Matt Hughes for editing these scripts and riffing 550 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: on many of the ideas and supporting me unwaveringly. Matt 551 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: Hughes is the fifth Beatle. If there were five of us, 552 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: I guess the second Beatle. I don't know, but I 553 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: love Matt so much. He's a wonderful friend. But also 554 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: he's as angry as I am about this shit. We 555 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: cook together. It's wonderful. I also want to thank Casey 556 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: Kagawa right at the top, because Casey is actually the 557 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 1: person who really worked on the rot economy with me 558 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: back in February twenty twenty three. He has been someone 559 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: who's been formative more work. Love you, man, I love 560 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: all these people. I'm not just gonna say I love 561 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: you every time, but I've told all of you. Matt Weinberger, 562 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: of course, Kylie Roberson, Christina Warren, Tajanavn Shnovik, Phil Broughton, 563 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: Caleb Wilson, Hassan, They've all regularly helped me work ideas out, 564 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: even when I'm just rambling to them in signal. And 565 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: if you're not on this list, please reach out. I'm sorry. 566 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: What I'm gaina is that. Look, I'm lucky to have 567 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: so many wonderful people that I've been able to connect 568 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: with in my life. And whatever you hear or read 569 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: me say is only possible as a result of these 570 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: people that've given me this strength. And all of them 571 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: came from the Internet. All of them came from it. 572 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: All of them are a result. Every single person I've 573 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,240 Speaker 1: listed there is someone I've met digitally. I'm not kissing 574 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 1: up to the platforms, but the concept of the Internet 575 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: has been so important to me, and I think it 576 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: has been to you too, And the anger in my 577 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: heart is that I see it being stolen from us. 578 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: I see it being taken away by people who make 579 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: so much money, making it worse. And the forces I 580 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: criticize they don't see beauty in human beings. They don't 581 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 1: see us as these remarkable things that generate ideas both 582 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: incredibly stupid and incredible. And they don't see talent or 583 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: creativity as something that's innately human. They see it as 584 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: a commodity to be condensed, to monetize and replicated so 585 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: that they ultimately own whatever value we have. Something you'd 586 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: only believe was possible if you were a disgusting management 587 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: consultant gargoyle with no connection to real people that should 588 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: be put in the carnival prism. Look, you deserve better 589 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: than what they've given you. You deserve better than what 590 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: I've given you, which is why I'm going to work 591 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: even harder in twenty twenty five. I'm lucky to have you. 592 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful for this podcast. I'm it's a privilege 593 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: to do this, and I love hearing from you. Email 594 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: me at e that's e z or Z at better 595 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: offline dot com. I try and respond to every email. 596 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: I have a big following on Blue Sky. That's a 597 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: place to find me. I hear from a lot of 598 00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: people thanking me, and each time I want you to 599 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: know it's extremely meaningful and I love it and thank you. 600 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,959 Speaker 1: It means a great deal to me. You take it 601 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: even a second out of your time, let alone the 602 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: thirty minutes for this episode, or however it much ends 603 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: up being. I'm really lucky, and I hope I'm helping, 604 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: and I'll continue to try. I'll continue to do my 605 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: boat my bet here look whan key as it sounds, 606 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: this has been a very personal journey. The last year 607 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: has been personally and professionally crazy for me, but also 608 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: digging through all of the tech industry, trying to work 609 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: out why Facebook's bad, Instagram's bad, Google's bad. I did 610 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: this because I did not understand you. Hear on this 611 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: podcast me working things out. You hear my personal journey 612 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 1: with technology in the fact that my life is technology. 613 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 1: My life's kind of chaotic, but a lot of that 614 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: chaos is rained in by technology by being able to 615 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: digitally handle things. I don't know what I do without it. 616 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: I write o nine words per minute. My hand physically hurts. 617 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how I'd get by without the digital 618 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: connections I have. I don't know what I would do 619 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: without this, And I don't know if you feel the same. 620 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. And maybe I'm strange for being so online. 621 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: I don't mean I'm extremely online in the performative sense, 622 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 1: like I'm on Tumbler and I can tell you what 623 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: means the popular I mean I'm online talking to my friend, 624 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: I'm online, digging around on blue Sky. I'm online writing 625 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: business emails or writing scripts. It's how my life has been, 626 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: It's how I've done everything, it's how I've got everything, 627 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: and I'm so grateful for it. And then this last 628 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,080 Speaker 1: year I've just been constantly reading the people sending emails 629 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 1: to each other, celebrating how much worse it's got, how 630 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: much more profitable it is, and seeing journalists that actively 631 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: see these people acting this way, these people who are 632 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 1: either making platforms worse or making things that don't work 633 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: very well that burn the environment, that burn billions of 634 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 1: dollars of cash, and clapping and being like, oh sir, 635 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: oh miss mister Altman, you're so good. Oh mister Amadi. 636 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: Please give me more broken anthropic products. I need them. 637 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: And it's fucking sickening to me. Build a real internet, 638 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: build something that matters, help people be stronger, be better, 639 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: have deeper connections, not this rot economy bullshit. And I 640 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: know I'm a dramatic person, and I'm not going to 641 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: get less dramatic. I'm sorry. If anything, it's going to 642 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: get more dramatic. But the outrage and emotion you hear 643 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: in me is because I've watched something that forms me 644 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 1: as a person get destroyed or poisoned, toxins dumped on 645 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: top of it. Its user's forced to slurp it down, 646 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: and it pisses me off. It pisses me off because, 647 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: as I've said in these two episodes, you can really 648 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: see the scale at which the rot economy hurts people. 649 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: But also, like I said, this is a personal journey. 650 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: Even though it's a business thing with like numbers and 651 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: such economic analysis and all this, a lot of it's 652 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: me trying to work out why something I love is 653 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: being hurt while the tech industry that really gave me 654 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: my life is run by people who don't seem to 655 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,479 Speaker 1: care about technology or the people it serves. It fills 656 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: me full of anger because there's goodness here. There's greatness here. 657 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: The people I hear from every week, even every day. Now, 658 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm really lucky I do so I hear from them 659 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 1: because of the Internet. They managed to get through the 660 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: noise to me, and it's lovely and I'm so grateful. 661 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: I promise you the next year is going to be wild. 662 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to put my all into it. The first 663 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: week of January, you're going to get the most insane 664 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: CES coverage. Me Edward and Graso Junior and David Roth 665 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: of DEFECTA will be on the floor. We will have 666 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: two episodes a day, an hour and a half each 667 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,000 Speaker 1: with a rotating cast of different people, including Robert Evans 668 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: and Gare Davis. You're going to have some really fun 669 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: coverage of the show. But what CES is going to 670 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: mean every year going forward is a bubble of sorts, 671 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: a bubble of how everyone's feeling about technology. I don't 672 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,439 Speaker 1: think they're feeling good, but know this listener, you're who 673 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: I care about. Don't care about the tech people. I 674 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,440 Speaker 1: care about the tech and how it helps you, and 675 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:54,719 Speaker 1: if it hurts you, I want to hurt it back. 676 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,839 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to the last year. 677 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: I can't believe how far this show's gone, but work 678 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: my ass off to make it even bigger and better 679 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 1: for you. Thank you for listening to Better Offline. The 680 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song is Matasowski. 681 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 1: You can check out more of his music and audio 682 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: projects at Mattasowski dot com, m A T T O 683 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: S O W s ki dot com. You can email 684 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,080 Speaker 1: me at easy at Better Offline dot com, or visit 685 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: Better Offline dot com to find more podcast links and 686 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: of course, my newsletter. I also really recommend you go 687 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,240 Speaker 1: to chat dot Where's Youreed dot at to visit the discord, 688 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:40,839 Speaker 1: and go to our slash Better Offline to check out 689 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: our Reddit. Thank you so much for listening. Better Offline 690 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: is a production of cool Zone Media. For more from 691 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zonemedia dot com, 692 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:54,200 Speaker 1: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 693 00:35:54,239 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.