1 00:00:15,539 --> 00:00:28,019 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hello everyone. For those who've listened to the show, 2 00:00:28,339 --> 00:00:32,339 Speaker 1: you'll know that Lee Krasner started painting at around aged 3 00:00:32,419 --> 00:00:36,659 Speaker 1: fourteen until her death in nineteen eighty four. That's six 4 00:00:36,819 --> 00:00:41,219 Speaker 1: decades of work. One thing I love about Lee's art 5 00:00:41,379 --> 00:00:45,059 Speaker 1: is how it was constantly changing in style in scale, 6 00:00:45,499 --> 00:00:50,699 Speaker 1: from seventeen feet wide paintings to small mosaic tables. We 7 00:00:50,779 --> 00:00:53,699 Speaker 1: didn't really have time to get properly stuck into Lee's 8 00:00:53,819 --> 00:00:56,139 Speaker 1: art in the show, but we're going to do that 9 00:00:56,259 --> 00:01:00,579 Speaker 1: now because for me, there's some of the greatest masterpieces 10 00:01:00,619 --> 00:01:03,499 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. And we're going to do that 11 00:01:03,899 --> 00:01:07,579 Speaker 1: with my friend Elena Nahir, who knows all about Lee. 12 00:01:08,179 --> 00:01:11,059 Speaker 1: In fact, she he's the person who introduced me to 13 00:01:11,139 --> 00:01:14,459 Speaker 1: Lee Krasner's work in the first place. And a quick 14 00:01:14,499 --> 00:01:17,539 Speaker 1: note that all of the paintings will be discussing are 15 00:01:17,539 --> 00:01:20,619 Speaker 1: linked to in our show notes, so if you'd like 16 00:01:20,699 --> 00:01:28,939 Speaker 1: to take a look as we go, please do. Hi. Elena, 17 00:01:29,459 --> 00:01:31,419 Speaker 1: thank you so much for making time to chat with 18 00:01:31,459 --> 00:01:33,819 Speaker 1: me about all things Lee Krasner. 19 00:01:34,139 --> 00:01:35,819 Speaker 2: Thank you, Katie, I. 20 00:01:35,739 --> 00:01:38,059 Speaker 1: Know you're pretty busy these days because of your new 21 00:01:38,139 --> 00:01:41,459 Speaker 1: job as the Keith el and Katherine Sachs, curator and 22 00:01:41,619 --> 00:01:44,779 Speaker 1: head of Modern and Contemporary Art at the Philadelphia Museum 23 00:01:44,779 --> 00:01:48,139 Speaker 1: of Art. But back in twenty nineteen you were working 24 00:01:48,219 --> 00:01:51,779 Speaker 1: at the Barbican Art Gallery in London, where you created 25 00:01:51,939 --> 00:01:56,539 Speaker 1: a groundbreaking retrospective of Lee's work. It blew me away, 26 00:01:56,699 --> 00:01:59,979 Speaker 1: as you know, But what drew you to Lee Krasner 27 00:02:00,019 --> 00:02:02,939 Speaker 1: in the first place, so much so that you staged 28 00:02:02,979 --> 00:02:04,179 Speaker 1: this major exhibition. 29 00:02:04,979 --> 00:02:08,419 Speaker 2: I think in a way as a curator, you're you're 30 00:02:08,459 --> 00:02:13,139 Speaker 2: always looking for something that's intriguing, a story that just 31 00:02:13,299 --> 00:02:18,059 Speaker 2: doesn't feel like it's quite yet been told in full 32 00:02:18,259 --> 00:02:22,219 Speaker 2: or been told in a way that is compelling. So 33 00:02:22,259 --> 00:02:26,259 Speaker 2: you're looking for a space between how something appears and 34 00:02:26,299 --> 00:02:29,259 Speaker 2: how it could be. So I would look at one 35 00:02:29,259 --> 00:02:33,419 Speaker 2: of Lee Krasner's works, say Gaia, which is in the 36 00:02:33,499 --> 00:02:38,539 Speaker 2: Museum of Modern Arts collection, and extraordinary paintings with those amazing, 37 00:02:38,699 --> 00:02:44,139 Speaker 2: sum assaulting arcs of purple and pink, and it would 38 00:02:44,339 --> 00:02:46,939 Speaker 2: really do something to me. In the simplest of terms, 39 00:02:47,019 --> 00:02:50,819 Speaker 2: artists are always saying that, you know, well, as Krasner said, 40 00:02:50,859 --> 00:02:53,019 Speaker 2: they want the work to breathe and be alive. But 41 00:02:53,459 --> 00:02:59,779 Speaker 2: for anyone who's ever wrestled with the mere materials of cotton, duck, 42 00:02:59,859 --> 00:03:02,579 Speaker 2: canvas and some pigment. It's not so easy to make 43 00:03:02,619 --> 00:03:05,779 Speaker 2: a thing breathe and be alive, and her work did 44 00:03:05,939 --> 00:03:11,739 Speaker 2: just that. It felt invigorating, it felt disturbing in certain ways, 45 00:03:12,059 --> 00:03:15,179 Speaker 2: and yet I felt I just didn't really know anything 46 00:03:15,219 --> 00:03:19,259 Speaker 2: about her. And so sometimes you begin on an exhibition 47 00:03:19,379 --> 00:03:22,379 Speaker 2: project because you want to know more, and you feel 48 00:03:22,419 --> 00:03:25,059 Speaker 2: like other people are probably going to want to know 49 00:03:25,139 --> 00:03:26,579 Speaker 2: more too. Totally. 50 00:03:26,659 --> 00:03:29,259 Speaker 1: Well, it was electric in London when you did stage it. 51 00:03:29,939 --> 00:03:33,259 Speaker 1: But in the winter of nineteen forty five, Lee Krasner 52 00:03:33,299 --> 00:03:36,659 Speaker 1: and Jackson Pollock moved to Springs in Long Island. So 53 00:03:36,979 --> 00:03:39,259 Speaker 1: I went to the house, which is obviously still there, 54 00:03:39,339 --> 00:03:42,659 Speaker 1: and I saw the spare bedroom where Lee painted, and 55 00:03:42,979 --> 00:03:47,219 Speaker 1: it is tiny, with low, cramped ceilings and just two small, 56 00:03:47,299 --> 00:03:51,939 Speaker 1: thin windows on each side. Hardly conditions for an ambitious artists, 57 00:03:52,059 --> 00:03:55,579 Speaker 1: especially when we compare it to where Jackson was working 58 00:03:55,699 --> 00:03:58,579 Speaker 1: in the barn. Can you describe the kind of painting 59 00:03:58,699 --> 00:04:01,619 Speaker 1: that Lee's making while she's working in the spare bedroom. 60 00:04:02,699 --> 00:04:05,699 Speaker 2: So they say you should never meet your heroes because 61 00:04:05,699 --> 00:04:09,819 Speaker 2: it's always a bit underwhelming. I mean, there's something similar 62 00:04:09,899 --> 00:04:13,019 Speaker 2: about when you go and visit a historic house or 63 00:04:13,699 --> 00:04:16,539 Speaker 2: esteemed property of that kind, that you can be quite 64 00:04:16,779 --> 00:04:19,579 Speaker 2: struck by the modesty of a place. And that is 65 00:04:19,859 --> 00:04:24,779 Speaker 2: definitely true of the cottage that Pollock and Krasner moved 66 00:04:24,779 --> 00:04:29,179 Speaker 2: out to in nineteen forty five. It's a fisherman's home. 67 00:04:29,299 --> 00:04:34,499 Speaker 2: It's small, it's modest, and Krasner has the upstairs bedroom 68 00:04:34,539 --> 00:04:36,859 Speaker 2: to work in until, of course, it gets too cold 69 00:04:36,939 --> 00:04:39,699 Speaker 2: and Pollock kicks her out and she's downstairs in the 70 00:04:39,739 --> 00:04:43,699 Speaker 2: living room. So she also only has that upstairs guest 71 00:04:43,739 --> 00:04:47,019 Speaker 2: bedroom for when the winters aren't so harsh, because they 72 00:04:47,019 --> 00:04:50,259 Speaker 2: can only afford to heat one floor of the house 73 00:04:50,299 --> 00:04:53,179 Speaker 2: at a time, which is I think another detail that 74 00:04:53,219 --> 00:04:56,299 Speaker 2: people often forget. They look at the prices of these 75 00:04:56,339 --> 00:04:59,779 Speaker 2: paintings today and they imagine that these were two artists 76 00:04:59,819 --> 00:05:04,059 Speaker 2: who were living relatively wealthy lives, and it's far from it. 77 00:05:04,139 --> 00:05:07,059 Speaker 2: You know, they were digging clams out from the creek 78 00:05:07,139 --> 00:05:10,139 Speaker 2: and hoping they could afford a loaf of bread. So 79 00:05:10,179 --> 00:05:14,539 Speaker 2: it's a very meager time for both of them. Krasner 80 00:05:14,979 --> 00:05:20,499 Speaker 2: is working predominantly on what she calls her gray slabs. 81 00:05:20,739 --> 00:05:24,739 Speaker 2: You know, she has this real creative impass in this 82 00:05:24,979 --> 00:05:30,339 Speaker 2: period in the nineteen forties, she is painting gray slab 83 00:05:30,499 --> 00:05:36,779 Speaker 2: upon gray slab, and then after they move, something happens, 84 00:05:36,819 --> 00:05:41,179 Speaker 2: something shifts, and she begins around nineteen forty six what 85 00:05:41,299 --> 00:05:45,179 Speaker 2: become known as her little image paintings. And she's seen, 86 00:05:45,299 --> 00:05:47,379 Speaker 2: of course, I think about this moment a lot, that 87 00:05:47,499 --> 00:05:51,699 Speaker 2: she's gone to see some of Miro's constellations, and she 88 00:05:51,779 --> 00:05:54,339 Speaker 2: writes in a letter she says, each one is a 89 00:05:54,339 --> 00:05:58,859 Speaker 2: little miracle. And you know Miro was also making those 90 00:05:58,899 --> 00:06:03,659 Speaker 2: constellations in times of extreme adversity. And there's a sense 91 00:06:03,739 --> 00:06:07,739 Speaker 2: these these little images have this very jewel like quality 92 00:06:07,819 --> 00:06:10,779 Speaker 2: to them. They almost seem like the colors are sort 93 00:06:10,819 --> 00:06:15,459 Speaker 2: of scintillating on the surface. They feel encrusted with paint, 94 00:06:15,539 --> 00:06:21,859 Speaker 2: but also effervescent. I mean, there's something so dynamic about them. 95 00:06:21,979 --> 00:06:25,299 Speaker 2: On such a small scale, we might look at them 96 00:06:25,299 --> 00:06:27,619 Speaker 2: and think that they are about the size of her 97 00:06:27,739 --> 00:06:32,139 Speaker 2: Torso they're just what a ribcage might be able to contain. 98 00:06:33,019 --> 00:06:35,899 Speaker 2: And she must be proud of them because she hangs 99 00:06:35,939 --> 00:06:39,339 Speaker 2: them in the house. So we know that she wanted 100 00:06:39,379 --> 00:06:40,539 Speaker 2: these works to be seen. 101 00:06:41,099 --> 00:06:43,299 Speaker 1: And she was also making mosaic tables at this time 102 00:06:43,299 --> 00:06:44,139 Speaker 1: as well well. 103 00:06:44,179 --> 00:06:49,899 Speaker 2: The mosaic tables are again a fantastic example of Krasner's tenacity. 104 00:06:50,699 --> 00:06:54,139 Speaker 2: She is somebody who is going to make work come 105 00:06:54,259 --> 00:06:59,219 Speaker 2: what may. And when Pollock decides that it's too cold 106 00:06:59,259 --> 00:07:01,219 Speaker 2: for him to work in the barn and he's going 107 00:07:01,299 --> 00:07:04,859 Speaker 2: to go upstairs and take that guest room, she is 108 00:07:05,259 --> 00:07:09,299 Speaker 2: forced downstairs into the living room, and like many artists, 109 00:07:09,059 --> 00:07:13,219 Speaker 2: feels self conscious about painting in those spaces. She is 110 00:07:13,579 --> 00:07:16,819 Speaker 2: probably also aware of not wanting to get paint all 111 00:07:16,859 --> 00:07:21,939 Speaker 2: over this white house. So there's a question about materials 112 00:07:22,019 --> 00:07:25,179 Speaker 2: and muk, but also a thing about it would have 113 00:07:25,179 --> 00:07:28,459 Speaker 2: been a relatively public space. Friends and neighbors would have 114 00:07:28,659 --> 00:07:32,459 Speaker 2: come and gone through that living room downstairs. And so 115 00:07:32,579 --> 00:07:35,699 Speaker 2: what she decides to do is to make a mosaic. 116 00:07:35,859 --> 00:07:39,859 Speaker 2: So she cuts a circular board which later becomes the 117 00:07:39,899 --> 00:07:43,819 Speaker 2: painting stop and Go, because everything is somehow recycled in 118 00:07:43,899 --> 00:07:47,739 Speaker 2: that house into another artwork. And she lays out, you know, 119 00:07:47,819 --> 00:07:51,019 Speaker 2: there had been some tessarie from a mosaic that Pollock 120 00:07:51,139 --> 00:07:56,019 Speaker 2: was working on. She grabs those. She takes lost keys, 121 00:07:56,259 --> 00:08:00,059 Speaker 2: bits of rusted glass that she's found in the garden. 122 00:08:01,019 --> 00:08:04,459 Speaker 2: I like to think that she's a kind of magpie 123 00:08:04,619 --> 00:08:07,339 Speaker 2: in these moments, and that she's got this eye and 124 00:08:07,499 --> 00:08:11,259 Speaker 2: anything that glints she gass it up and she turns 125 00:08:11,299 --> 00:08:15,499 Speaker 2: it into these fabulous mosaic tables that are then set 126 00:08:15,619 --> 00:08:20,499 Speaker 2: in cement and this circle that sort of enshrines them 127 00:08:20,539 --> 00:08:23,179 Speaker 2: as an old wagon wheel that they pull out of 128 00:08:23,259 --> 00:08:27,099 Speaker 2: the barn. So they're very, very kind of make do 129 00:08:27,459 --> 00:08:33,659 Speaker 2: and mend post war projects, but they are also remarkable things, 130 00:08:33,779 --> 00:08:36,339 Speaker 2: especially when seen alongside those little images. 131 00:08:37,179 --> 00:08:41,019 Speaker 1: So for me, one of Lee's most electrifying paintings is 132 00:08:41,099 --> 00:08:44,219 Speaker 1: one she started in nineteen fifty six, just a few 133 00:08:44,259 --> 00:08:47,699 Speaker 1: months before Jackson died. It's a dramatic turn from her 134 00:08:47,699 --> 00:08:52,419 Speaker 1: earlier work and is a strange, haunting, abstract arrangement of 135 00:08:52,739 --> 00:08:57,339 Speaker 1: distorted body parts in raw, fleshy pinks, with what looks 136 00:08:57,379 --> 00:09:00,739 Speaker 1: like an eye, limbs and feet just visible. It's tall, 137 00:09:01,059 --> 00:09:04,539 Speaker 1: about four feet by two feet, and Lee called it prophecy. 138 00:09:04,739 --> 00:09:06,499 Speaker 1: Can you tell us the story behind this? 139 00:09:07,579 --> 00:09:12,219 Speaker 2: So Krausling is in ourartist who worked in these cycles, 140 00:09:12,339 --> 00:09:15,499 Speaker 2: as you know. So she would begin a series, she 141 00:09:15,659 --> 00:09:18,699 Speaker 2: might feel very frustrated with it. She might destroy it, 142 00:09:18,859 --> 00:09:20,979 Speaker 2: she might tear it up and turn it into a 143 00:09:21,059 --> 00:09:24,339 Speaker 2: new body of work. But she had these kinds of 144 00:09:24,939 --> 00:09:29,939 Speaker 2: created guts that would blow through her studio, and when 145 00:09:29,979 --> 00:09:33,259 Speaker 2: a new one came, she didn't always know where it 146 00:09:33,379 --> 00:09:38,779 Speaker 2: was carrying her, and that could be an incredibly disconcerting experience. 147 00:09:39,179 --> 00:09:43,619 Speaker 2: So we have to remember she doesn't at this point 148 00:09:43,659 --> 00:09:50,619 Speaker 2: have secure gallery representation. You know, she doesn't have significant 149 00:09:50,659 --> 00:09:54,459 Speaker 2: commercial success. She sold a few of the collage paintings, 150 00:09:54,539 --> 00:09:57,779 Speaker 2: but how does she know that she's moving in the 151 00:09:57,859 --> 00:10:00,459 Speaker 2: right direction. It's a difficult thing for her to do. 152 00:10:01,539 --> 00:10:05,059 Speaker 2: And Krasner and Pollock, of course, had this great relationship 153 00:10:05,059 --> 00:10:09,819 Speaker 2: whereby they entered one another's studio by invitation only, and 154 00:10:10,019 --> 00:10:12,819 Speaker 2: she invites him to come and look at the new painting, 155 00:10:13,539 --> 00:10:16,419 Speaker 2: and he's encouraging, you know. She would ask the question, 156 00:10:16,539 --> 00:10:18,859 Speaker 2: is at a painting? And he said, yes, keep going, 157 00:10:20,099 --> 00:10:23,859 Speaker 2: and she was disturbed by it. And I think a 158 00:10:23,939 --> 00:10:28,739 Speaker 2: detail that's kind of interesting for me is that when 159 00:10:28,739 --> 00:10:32,459 Speaker 2: we showed this work at the Barbicane, we presented it 160 00:10:32,619 --> 00:10:37,299 Speaker 2: alongside the three other paintings that she made following And 161 00:10:37,379 --> 00:10:40,659 Speaker 2: of course what had happened in between Prophecy and its 162 00:10:40,819 --> 00:10:45,539 Speaker 2: three siblings was that Pollock had crashed his car and 163 00:10:45,619 --> 00:10:50,699 Speaker 2: killed himself and also another passenger in the car, and 164 00:10:50,739 --> 00:10:53,499 Speaker 2: she had been in Paris, she'd received the news she'd 165 00:10:53,499 --> 00:10:55,419 Speaker 2: flown back the same night. I mean, it was an 166 00:10:55,459 --> 00:11:01,859 Speaker 2: incredibly traumatic period of time for her, and almost immediately 167 00:11:02,059 --> 00:11:05,779 Speaker 2: she gets back to painting and continues this series with 168 00:11:05,939 --> 00:11:09,779 Speaker 2: work such as Birth and three and two. Like you say, 169 00:11:09,859 --> 00:11:16,019 Speaker 2: they're fleshy, they're violent, they're difficult paintings, and we had 170 00:11:16,139 --> 00:11:22,339 Speaker 2: members of our vigilation team who were saying that they 171 00:11:22,539 --> 00:11:26,539 Speaker 2: found it emotionally overwhelming to be in that space for 172 00:11:26,619 --> 00:11:30,619 Speaker 2: too long. We made a kind of chapel for them 173 00:11:30,699 --> 00:11:35,979 Speaker 2: because the charge that they omitted was so powerful, and 174 00:11:36,019 --> 00:11:39,379 Speaker 2: it's so rare for an artist to be able to 175 00:11:39,659 --> 00:11:42,019 Speaker 2: articulate that interior state. 176 00:11:42,419 --> 00:11:45,819 Speaker 1: So, well, what do you feel when you look at 177 00:11:45,819 --> 00:11:46,979 Speaker 1: paintings like Prophecy? 178 00:11:48,059 --> 00:11:52,499 Speaker 2: I feel almost like I've transgressed a scene that I 179 00:11:52,659 --> 00:12:00,259 Speaker 2: wasn't really meant to see. There's something uncomfortable about what 180 00:12:00,619 --> 00:12:07,379 Speaker 2: feels like a total excess of emotions spilling out of them. Now, 181 00:12:07,379 --> 00:12:10,059 Speaker 2: some of that we might put down to painting effect. 182 00:12:10,499 --> 00:12:14,339 Speaker 2: She's using some interesting techniques. She's thinning down some of 183 00:12:14,339 --> 00:12:17,379 Speaker 2: the paint so that it dribbles across the canvas. She's 184 00:12:17,939 --> 00:12:21,659 Speaker 2: using these very dramatic dark lines to kind of edge 185 00:12:21,859 --> 00:12:27,579 Speaker 2: these figures. She is working off a precedent like Picasso's Demoiselle, 186 00:12:28,099 --> 00:12:31,019 Speaker 2: but she's remaking it in a way that the bodies 187 00:12:31,259 --> 00:12:34,779 Speaker 2: appear dismembered. It's like we're seeing parts of bodies but 188 00:12:34,939 --> 00:12:39,139 Speaker 2: never whole. So there's an implication of violence there. So 189 00:12:39,259 --> 00:12:45,139 Speaker 2: some of this we can put down to technique, and 190 00:12:45,259 --> 00:12:48,819 Speaker 2: some of it is that something of the state she 191 00:12:49,099 --> 00:12:52,139 Speaker 2: was in at the point at which she makes these 192 00:12:52,219 --> 00:12:56,339 Speaker 2: works has transmuted into them, and when we stand in 193 00:12:56,379 --> 00:13:00,699 Speaker 2: front of them, perhaps it is our own empathetic imagination, 194 00:13:01,979 --> 00:13:07,659 Speaker 2: but we can very easily find ourselves moved powerfully. And 195 00:13:08,819 --> 00:13:12,459 Speaker 2: it's this sensation that's hard to describe, but I think 196 00:13:12,539 --> 00:13:17,299 Speaker 2: we each know when we found ourselves caught by a 197 00:13:17,379 --> 00:13:21,979 Speaker 2: painting and unable to leave its spell. 198 00:13:22,859 --> 00:13:28,579 Speaker 1: After Jackson dies, her art really transforms like never before. 199 00:13:28,699 --> 00:13:31,579 Speaker 1: I mean, can you describe to us what happens to 200 00:13:31,619 --> 00:13:35,699 Speaker 1: her painting after she decides to move into Jackson's barn 201 00:13:35,499 --> 00:13:39,859 Speaker 1: and what says to her, I'm going to stay here 202 00:13:39,939 --> 00:13:41,579 Speaker 1: and I'm going to paint in this barn. 203 00:13:42,219 --> 00:13:46,379 Speaker 2: I think it's such an important moment actually to just 204 00:13:46,579 --> 00:13:51,379 Speaker 2: acknowledge what it will have taken to decide to move 205 00:13:51,459 --> 00:13:56,539 Speaker 2: into that space. She speaks about it very frankly, of course, 206 00:13:56,619 --> 00:13:59,819 Speaker 2: because that was Krasner's way, you know, and it was 207 00:14:00,179 --> 00:14:03,779 Speaker 2: for sure, it was the largest space with the best 208 00:14:03,899 --> 00:14:07,339 Speaker 2: natural light. And she says, you know, it would have 209 00:14:07,379 --> 00:14:12,139 Speaker 2: been foolish to let it stand empty. Well, that may 210 00:14:12,179 --> 00:14:16,859 Speaker 2: be the case, but many artists have, Many people have 211 00:14:16,979 --> 00:14:19,419 Speaker 2: suffered a loss in their family and have never gone 212 00:14:19,459 --> 00:14:23,099 Speaker 2: back into that area, their bedroom, their room, their study. 213 00:14:24,059 --> 00:14:28,499 Speaker 2: Often that becomes a kind of enshrined space. So to 214 00:14:28,579 --> 00:14:33,499 Speaker 2: not just reimagine that studio, but to reimagine it as 215 00:14:33,619 --> 00:14:38,379 Speaker 2: her own is a sort of extraordinary thing to do, 216 00:14:38,459 --> 00:14:43,299 Speaker 2: and it's an act of incredible courage. And I think 217 00:14:43,459 --> 00:14:46,619 Speaker 2: one of the reasons she's able to do it is 218 00:14:46,699 --> 00:14:50,059 Speaker 2: because of this very humble thing that had happened, which 219 00:14:50,179 --> 00:14:53,139 Speaker 2: was that he had had this period where he was 220 00:14:53,219 --> 00:14:57,219 Speaker 2: creatively really struggling. He had a kind of painter's block, 221 00:14:58,179 --> 00:15:02,099 Speaker 2: and as we all sometimes do, he procrastinated with some 222 00:15:02,139 --> 00:15:06,179 Speaker 2: domestic projects, and so he'd been meaning forever to kind 223 00:15:06,179 --> 00:15:09,659 Speaker 2: of insulate the barn a bit, and his my brother 224 00:15:09,699 --> 00:15:12,899 Speaker 2: had sent him all these ball games that he'd come 225 00:15:12,979 --> 00:15:15,859 Speaker 2: up with that hadn't been successful, and he lays down 226 00:15:15,939 --> 00:15:20,819 Speaker 2: the boards over the floor what had become this mythological 227 00:15:20,899 --> 00:15:23,859 Speaker 2: floor that you know, hands Namath and others had photographed 228 00:15:23,899 --> 00:15:28,459 Speaker 2: all of those incredible the filigree sprays. They're covered up 229 00:15:29,139 --> 00:15:32,499 Speaker 2: and Pollock barely makes another painting in the barn after that. 230 00:15:33,539 --> 00:15:38,059 Speaker 2: So Krasner when she goes into this space, she doesn't 231 00:15:38,099 --> 00:15:42,339 Speaker 2: have those visible traces around her, and then she's working 232 00:15:42,339 --> 00:15:45,019 Speaker 2: on a different orientation. He was working on the floor, 233 00:15:45,379 --> 00:15:48,859 Speaker 2: she works on the wall. So it's like their whole lives. 234 00:15:48,899 --> 00:15:52,179 Speaker 2: They find a way to be adjacent to each other 235 00:15:52,259 --> 00:15:54,019 Speaker 2: without being on top of one another. 236 00:15:54,979 --> 00:15:57,019 Speaker 1: It's so interesting you say that, because when I went 237 00:15:57,059 --> 00:15:59,739 Speaker 1: to the house, it was extraordinary because they've now taken 238 00:15:59,779 --> 00:16:02,019 Speaker 1: the boards off the floor, and it's almost like it's 239 00:16:02,019 --> 00:16:05,179 Speaker 1: a shrine to both Krasna and Pollock because it's her 240 00:16:05,299 --> 00:16:07,259 Speaker 1: on the walls. You can see those paint splatters and 241 00:16:07,299 --> 00:16:09,619 Speaker 1: those greens and pinks, and then you see his work 242 00:16:10,059 --> 00:16:10,659 Speaker 1: on the floor. 243 00:16:11,739 --> 00:16:15,099 Speaker 2: And he could never have known that that's what he 244 00:16:15,139 --> 00:16:19,539 Speaker 2: was doing. But from a conservation perspective, he protected his 245 00:16:19,859 --> 00:16:23,379 Speaker 2: own remnants in the space, while at the same time 246 00:16:23,579 --> 00:16:27,059 Speaker 2: facilitating for her to be able to come in and 247 00:16:27,139 --> 00:16:29,459 Speaker 2: at one point make it her own. 248 00:16:34,179 --> 00:16:36,419 Speaker 1: So tell me about how her painting changed. 249 00:16:37,499 --> 00:16:41,899 Speaker 2: The paintings are remarkably high keyed that she makes in 250 00:16:41,939 --> 00:16:45,179 Speaker 2: this period after Prophecy, what become known as her Earth 251 00:16:45,219 --> 00:16:48,099 Speaker 2: Green Theories. She shows them that Martha Jackson, they have 252 00:16:48,899 --> 00:16:54,339 Speaker 2: this kind of almost ecstatically vibrant color palette to them, 253 00:16:54,379 --> 00:16:57,339 Speaker 2: and it's hard to correlate with the period that she's 254 00:16:57,379 --> 00:16:59,859 Speaker 2: going through. She finds it hard to correlate, and she 255 00:17:00,019 --> 00:17:03,779 Speaker 2: describes how at times when she was making these paintings, 256 00:17:03,779 --> 00:17:06,619 Speaker 2: she says, it's weird to me because they look like 257 00:17:07,019 --> 00:17:11,419 Speaker 2: really happy paintings and at times my face was just 258 00:17:11,619 --> 00:17:15,499 Speaker 2: aw wash with tears while I was making them. And 259 00:17:16,419 --> 00:17:20,979 Speaker 2: I think there is a sort of feeling of release 260 00:17:21,299 --> 00:17:26,099 Speaker 2: in them. And perhaps it's worth remembering that life with 261 00:17:26,219 --> 00:17:29,859 Speaker 2: Pollock was never easy, you know. Her favorite way of 262 00:17:29,899 --> 00:17:32,779 Speaker 2: describing that marriage was that she felt she had caught 263 00:17:32,779 --> 00:17:36,779 Speaker 2: a comet by the tail. So perhaps there was some 264 00:17:36,979 --> 00:17:40,299 Speaker 2: sense that for the first time in her life, she 265 00:17:40,459 --> 00:17:44,859 Speaker 2: was on her own, and that that was troubling and 266 00:17:45,459 --> 00:17:51,219 Speaker 2: challenging but also exhilarating, and she was day by day 267 00:17:51,419 --> 00:17:56,419 Speaker 2: confronting what it meant to be a woman thrown into 268 00:17:56,459 --> 00:17:59,179 Speaker 2: this new chapter of her life. 269 00:17:59,339 --> 00:18:02,619 Speaker 1: In an interview in the seventies, Lee complained that she 270 00:18:02,779 --> 00:18:06,819 Speaker 1: was always being compared to Jackson Pollock. Is her work 271 00:18:06,899 --> 00:18:09,059 Speaker 1: still haunted by Jackson Pollock shadow? 272 00:18:09,699 --> 00:18:13,859 Speaker 2: It's a really good question, and we might start by 273 00:18:14,339 --> 00:18:17,619 Speaker 2: maybe thinking about a detail like her name. You know, 274 00:18:17,699 --> 00:18:22,419 Speaker 2: this is a woman who is born Lena Krasner, who 275 00:18:22,499 --> 00:18:27,739 Speaker 2: rebrands herself Lenore because it sounds more American, and then 276 00:18:27,899 --> 00:18:30,779 Speaker 2: when she's at art school she becomes Lee, which is 277 00:18:30,859 --> 00:18:36,459 Speaker 2: kind of androgynous, and then after she's with Pollock, she 278 00:18:36,579 --> 00:18:39,819 Speaker 2: becomes Lee Krasner Pollock. I mean she used to use 279 00:18:39,859 --> 00:18:43,779 Speaker 2: his surname as well. And after he dies and she 280 00:18:43,819 --> 00:18:47,859 Speaker 2: becomes the sole executor of his estate, which is an 281 00:18:48,059 --> 00:18:51,739 Speaker 2: enormous weighty responsibility at that time. As if it's not 282 00:18:52,499 --> 00:18:56,179 Speaker 2: enough to be contending with her personal grief and the 283 00:18:56,299 --> 00:19:00,019 Speaker 2: questions around her own future career, she now, on top 284 00:19:00,059 --> 00:19:02,659 Speaker 2: of that, needs to be responsible for all of the 285 00:19:03,259 --> 00:19:08,179 Speaker 2: administration and creative thinking around his legacy. And so of 286 00:19:08,339 --> 00:19:13,819 Speaker 2: course she becomes burdened with this moniker of missus Jackson Pollock. 287 00:19:14,019 --> 00:19:16,899 Speaker 2: And when she writes to museums to say to them 288 00:19:16,899 --> 00:19:20,539 Speaker 2: they should be acquiring an important Pollock work for their collection. 289 00:19:21,219 --> 00:19:24,539 Speaker 2: She writes, as missus Jackson Pollock. It's in that capacity. 290 00:19:25,739 --> 00:19:29,659 Speaker 2: So what becomes complicated for her is then how to 291 00:19:30,059 --> 00:19:34,779 Speaker 2: untether herself from that, because she had been her own 292 00:19:34,899 --> 00:19:38,379 Speaker 2: woman before she met him. You know, they meet as 293 00:19:38,459 --> 00:19:43,059 Speaker 2: fellow artists, very much as peers, and if anything, Krasner 294 00:19:43,099 --> 00:19:47,499 Speaker 2: is the one with the more secure reputation and more 295 00:19:47,619 --> 00:19:51,179 Speaker 2: kind of significant standing in the American art world at 296 00:19:51,179 --> 00:19:56,419 Speaker 2: that point. So that process of untethering took decades in 297 00:19:56,499 --> 00:20:01,339 Speaker 2: her lifetime. It took a huge amount of work from 298 00:20:01,419 --> 00:20:05,699 Speaker 2: the feminist movement, and it has continued right up until today. 299 00:20:05,899 --> 00:20:09,219 Speaker 2: And I think one of the things that's challenging about 300 00:20:09,459 --> 00:20:12,979 Speaker 2: it is, of course he was important to her. You know, 301 00:20:13,099 --> 00:20:17,379 Speaker 2: she said Matisse was her most central influence until this guy, 302 00:20:17,459 --> 00:20:21,379 Speaker 2: Jackson Pollack came along. You know, he was a breakthrough 303 00:20:21,419 --> 00:20:25,539 Speaker 2: for her. So she would never want to deny his 304 00:20:25,659 --> 00:20:29,659 Speaker 2: significance on her practice or hers on his, while at 305 00:20:29,699 --> 00:20:32,779 Speaker 2: the same time wanting to be able to be appreciated 306 00:20:32,819 --> 00:20:33,739 Speaker 2: in her own life. 307 00:20:34,579 --> 00:20:38,939 Speaker 1: And because she was this super nova in the nineteen thirties. 308 00:20:38,979 --> 00:20:41,259 Speaker 1: I mean, do you think it frustratedly that she was 309 00:20:41,259 --> 00:20:44,699 Speaker 1: originally the successful one in the modern art scene and 310 00:20:45,059 --> 00:20:48,179 Speaker 1: two had ambitions to be a successful painter. 311 00:20:48,899 --> 00:20:51,219 Speaker 2: I mean, when we look at some of the photographs 312 00:20:51,299 --> 00:20:54,019 Speaker 2: that were taken at the time of Pollock in his studio, 313 00:20:54,259 --> 00:20:58,339 Speaker 2: and you can sometimes see in the background a scowling 314 00:20:58,539 --> 00:21:02,899 Speaker 2: Lee Krasner smoking on a stool looking on I think 315 00:21:02,939 --> 00:21:05,899 Speaker 2: we get some degree of answer to that question, which was, 316 00:21:06,459 --> 00:21:12,099 Speaker 2: of course, like every artist spout ever, she was there 317 00:21:12,259 --> 00:21:17,979 Speaker 2: thinking to herself, might I persuade this journalist to venture 318 00:21:18,099 --> 00:21:22,099 Speaker 2: into my studio after they've spent several hours talking to 319 00:21:22,219 --> 00:21:26,339 Speaker 2: him about his work in his studio? Of course, she 320 00:21:26,539 --> 00:21:30,739 Speaker 2: wanted her place to be recognized, not just in terms 321 00:21:30,819 --> 00:21:34,619 Speaker 2: of the scale of significance that she'd had on his practice, 322 00:21:34,659 --> 00:21:38,979 Speaker 2: but also, you know, on others in the abstract expressionist 323 00:21:39,059 --> 00:21:43,899 Speaker 2: scene as well. She was incredibly connected across that field. 324 00:21:44,739 --> 00:21:48,099 Speaker 2: So it must have been frustrating for her. How could 325 00:21:48,099 --> 00:21:49,139 Speaker 2: it have not been? 326 00:21:50,339 --> 00:21:54,179 Speaker 1: And something I think I struggled with during this series 327 00:21:54,459 --> 00:21:58,179 Speaker 1: is that to me, Lee is a feminist icon. She's 328 00:21:58,219 --> 00:22:01,739 Speaker 1: a trailblazer. Like she said to Cyndi Lemser, she broke 329 00:22:01,899 --> 00:22:06,619 Speaker 1: the ground, but in interviews she didn't want any labels woman, 330 00:22:06,899 --> 00:22:09,659 Speaker 1: American feminists. She just wanted to be thought of, was 331 00:22:09,699 --> 00:22:13,459 Speaker 1: a capital a artist. She actually said, I'm an artist, 332 00:22:13,579 --> 00:22:16,939 Speaker 1: not a woman artist, not an American artist. What do 333 00:22:16,979 --> 00:22:17,619 Speaker 1: you make of that? 334 00:22:18,939 --> 00:22:22,139 Speaker 2: I cheer for her to be honest. When we look 335 00:22:22,179 --> 00:22:27,019 Speaker 2: at so many contemporary artists working today, they rile at 336 00:22:27,059 --> 00:22:31,459 Speaker 2: the same things. They feel like, don't include me in 337 00:22:31,499 --> 00:22:35,699 Speaker 2: your exhibition as a compensatory gesture. Include me in your 338 00:22:35,779 --> 00:22:39,339 Speaker 2: exhibition because I'm a terrific artist and this work needs 339 00:22:39,379 --> 00:22:43,219 Speaker 2: to be seen. And she was kind of before her 340 00:22:43,299 --> 00:22:47,459 Speaker 2: time in that regard, so I think she was friends 341 00:22:47,499 --> 00:22:52,099 Speaker 2: with many who consider themselves to be feminists. She deep 342 00:22:52,219 --> 00:22:54,899 Speaker 2: down was sympathetic to the cause. But if she was 343 00:22:54,939 --> 00:22:59,819 Speaker 2: at times prickly when questioned about it, it was because 344 00:22:59,859 --> 00:23:04,219 Speaker 2: she understood gender to be a fiction, a powerful fiction, 345 00:23:04,339 --> 00:23:05,819 Speaker 2: but a fiction nonetheless. 346 00:23:06,419 --> 00:23:10,979 Speaker 1: And with respect to your exhibition, what is Lee's legacy today? 347 00:23:11,059 --> 00:23:11,859 Speaker 1: How was she thought of? 348 00:23:12,419 --> 00:23:16,539 Speaker 2: Well, when we staged an exhibition of that kind, we 349 00:23:16,699 --> 00:23:19,659 Speaker 2: hope that it's a moment for people to reassess. And 350 00:23:20,019 --> 00:23:23,939 Speaker 2: when Krasner traveled over to London for her retrospective, at 351 00:23:23,979 --> 00:23:26,819 Speaker 2: the Whitechapel Gallery that Brian Robertson did, and you know, 352 00:23:26,899 --> 00:23:29,859 Speaker 2: she persuaded assistant curators to go and see the Beatles 353 00:23:30,019 --> 00:23:32,819 Speaker 2: film and you know, she had a great time. But 354 00:23:32,899 --> 00:23:34,939 Speaker 2: one of the things that was fascinating was she was like, 355 00:23:34,979 --> 00:23:37,939 Speaker 2: people forget what it means for the artists themselves to 356 00:23:37,979 --> 00:23:40,539 Speaker 2: be able to kind of review their work. And she 357 00:23:40,699 --> 00:23:44,339 Speaker 2: felt you could see that the breaks in each different 358 00:23:44,419 --> 00:23:48,219 Speaker 2: period and series weren't as severe as she had thought. 359 00:23:48,819 --> 00:23:51,619 Speaker 2: And I felt something similar happen when we staged the 360 00:23:51,619 --> 00:23:56,699 Speaker 2: show at the Barbicane and it's other European venues, that 361 00:23:56,739 --> 00:24:00,459 Speaker 2: people had an idea of Krasner in their head that 362 00:24:00,579 --> 00:24:04,539 Speaker 2: didn't necessarily marry with what they were then being presented 363 00:24:04,619 --> 00:24:07,699 Speaker 2: with in the space. We're very quick to draw a 364 00:24:07,739 --> 00:24:11,499 Speaker 2: conclusion about an artist and think that we have a 365 00:24:11,539 --> 00:24:15,219 Speaker 2: sense of who they were and their significance, and then 366 00:24:15,259 --> 00:24:17,739 Speaker 2: you see a hundred or so works by them and 367 00:24:17,779 --> 00:24:20,659 Speaker 2: it allows you to really draw breath and think again. 368 00:24:20,819 --> 00:24:24,459 Speaker 2: And I think many people had the opportunity to do 369 00:24:24,499 --> 00:24:28,859 Speaker 2: that in the exhibition, which has been hugely important in 370 00:24:28,939 --> 00:24:29,979 Speaker 2: terms of her legacy. 371 00:24:35,379 --> 00:24:38,299 Speaker 1: Eleanor, thank you so much for speaking to me about 372 00:24:38,339 --> 00:24:41,579 Speaker 1: all things Lee Krasner. And just to add again that 373 00:24:41,619 --> 00:24:43,899 Speaker 1: if you'd like to check out any of the paintings 374 00:24:43,939 --> 00:24:47,059 Speaker 1: we've been discussing, we've linked them on our show notes, 375 00:24:47,259 --> 00:24:49,779 Speaker 1: so please do take a look, and thank you all 376 00:24:49,819 --> 00:24:55,219 Speaker 1: again so much for listening, Bye for now. Death of 377 00:24:55,259 --> 00:24:59,379 Speaker 1: an Artist Krasner and Pollend is produced by Pushkin Industries 378 00:24:59,459 --> 00:25:04,259 Speaker 1: and Samasdat Audio. Clem Hitchcock is our producer. Story editing 379 00:25:04,539 --> 00:25:09,899 Speaker 1: by Dasherlitz at Sina, Sophie Crane and Karen Shakerji from Pushkin. 380 00:25:10,139 --> 00:25:15,059 Speaker 1: The executive producer is Jacob Smith from Sammersdat Audio. The 381 00:25:15,179 --> 00:25:20,779 Speaker 1: executive producers are Dasherlitz at Sina and Joe Sykes. Sound 382 00:25:20,779 --> 00:25:25,819 Speaker 1: design by Peregrine Andrews. Original scoring and our theme were 383 00:25:25,859 --> 00:25:30,499 Speaker 1: composed by Martin Ustwick. The fact checking by Arthur Gompertz. 384 00:25:31,019 --> 00:25:37,139 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Jacob Weissberg. I'm Katie Hessel.