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Speaker 1: Apple and Google both lost big legal battles with the

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Speaker 1: European Union. For Apple, it was over an EU ordered

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Speaker 1: Irish tax bill of over fourteen billion dollars. Google, on

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Speaker 1: the other hand, lost its challenge to and over two

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Speaker 1: billion dollar fine for abusing its market power in the

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Speaker 1: search business. Both cases were among the biggest competition cases

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Speaker 1: in the EU's history. Following the rule in Bloomberg's Max

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Speaker 1: Ramsey spoke with EU Competition chief Margaret Vestayer.

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Speaker 2: Two huge victories. What does this mean for you personally?

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Speaker 2: What does this mean for European citizens?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's a very important step towards tax

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Speaker 3: justice that Apple now actually have to pay the thirteen

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Speaker 3: billion euros to the Irish States. I think that shows

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Speaker 3: European citizens at actually, once in a while, tax justice

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Speaker 3: can take place. And it's important to me as well.

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Speaker 3: I'm very very happy with this win.

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Speaker 2: I can totally imagine and I guess you know, we

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Speaker 2: never start thinking about what's next as well. You do

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Speaker 2: have a fourth case against Google and the ad tech business.

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Speaker 2: I think I'm right that previously you've suggested a resolution

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Speaker 2: to this could be a breakup. I mean, do you

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Speaker 2: see that as the resolution that's going.

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Speaker 4: To need to happen. Is that the only way forward

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Speaker 4: on that case.

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Speaker 3: Well, of course it may be that we are not,

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Speaker 3: you know, using all our imagination, but the thing is

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Speaker 3: that there is an inherent conflict of interest because Google

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Speaker 3: earns the marketplace, it earns the seller, it earns the

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Speaker 3: buyer who uses this marketplace. So it's difficult for us

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Speaker 3: to see any other solution. Of course, reopen is but

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Speaker 3: the case is very very advanced. So yeah, let's see

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Speaker 3: what decision we can reach.

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Speaker 2: And then, I mean, looking back over the past ten years,

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Speaker 2: You've been in this role as the head of the

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Speaker 2: competition for for ten years. In that time, you've had

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Speaker 2: huge cases, You've had, you know, huge pieces of regulation

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Speaker 2: that have you know, caused times pushback, particularly from big

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Speaker 2: tech companies, from former president on the Trump. How have

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Speaker 2: you dealt with these kind of sometimes fractious relationships you

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Speaker 2: know yourself personally.

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Speaker 3: Well, I've tried not to make it personal because I

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Speaker 3: think it comes with the job. You need to be

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Speaker 3: able to do a job. Also when people do not

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Speaker 3: agree with you, also when people are aggressive towards you,

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Speaker 3: because otherwise it's not possible. And of course also my

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Speaker 3: responsibility to push because the world is changing. So you know,

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Speaker 3: we look at a lot more now at innovation. In

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Speaker 3: our cases, we lose innovation, can innovation be enabled? So

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Speaker 3: it has been a process of renewal and I think

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Speaker 3: that is really really important. Also when people disagree with

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Speaker 3: you that you try to push on and.

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Speaker 2: The world is changing, I think is very interesting to

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Speaker 2: bring up because of course we have had this report

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Speaker 2: from Mario Drugi, We've had previously the report from Enrico Letta,

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Speaker 2: and there is talk, you know, even harder push from

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Speaker 2: others around loosening state age rules or you know, allowing

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Speaker 2: more mergers to kind of boost European companies or create

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Speaker 2: European champions.

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Speaker 4: What do you think of that? Do you see risks

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Speaker 4: in that approach?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think from what I have read so far

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Speaker 3: in the Dwagi report, actually he calls for ending temporary

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Speaker 3: state ed rules. He's asking for a prudent state aid approach,

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Speaker 3: but for more European approach, which is what we have

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Speaker 3: in what we call important Projects of common European interests.

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Speaker 3: We have ten of those projects, a total of private

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Speaker 3: and public investment more than one hundred billion euros. So

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Speaker 3: I think that is a very important push because we

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Speaker 3: have faced the acute crisises of the pandemic, war, energy crisis,

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Speaker 3: but the slow crisis of you know, the eroding of

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Speaker 3: our competitiveness is something that needs to be phased head on.

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Speaker 3: So I really hope that the Drug Report, the Letter

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Speaker 3: Report will make us focus making the single market work,

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Speaker 3: have more people use their talent, have capital made available

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Speaker 3: for businesses who want us to scale. So I think

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Speaker 3: it's a very important time of the European Union to

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Speaker 3: be able to solve also the slowly emerging crisis of

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Speaker 3: eroading of competitiveness. Now, when we have showed that the

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Speaker 3: acute crisises, they can actually be solved.

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Speaker 2: And I guess does that also call for any kind

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Speaker 2: of paradigm shift in competition policy or do you see

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Speaker 2: this you know, continuing under your success as you have

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Speaker 2: led the competition policy of the Commission.

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Speaker 3: Well, we have renewed quite a number of things, so

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Speaker 3: we have a much more thorough look at innovation. We

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Speaker 3: have made it clear how do we look at markets,

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Speaker 3: because of course more markets become global. How can we

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Speaker 3: assess that we have prepared the grounds to look at

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Speaker 3: the regulation that governs how we look at abuse of

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Speaker 3: dominant position. So there are quite a number of things

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Speaker 3: that has been renewed, and we have sort of paved

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Speaker 3: the way for I think a bitter administration, more better

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Speaker 3: access to file so there would be plenty of work

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Speaker 3: for my successor to.

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Speaker 4: Do, I don't doubt.

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Speaker 2: And then I guess just a final reflection on these

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Speaker 2: judgments today. I mean, you mentioned the press conference that

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Speaker 2: you were brought to tears I think by the judgments.

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Speaker 2: I mean, do you feel is this a kind of

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Speaker 2: vindication coming at the end of your term?

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Speaker 4: You know of your work over the past ten years.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think you need to of course own your victories,

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Speaker 3: but you also own your defeats, and we have had both,

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Speaker 3: and hopefully that shows that we're willing to push the

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Speaker 3: envelopes also sometimes to take a risk in order to

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Speaker 3: try to make sure that the market serves the consumer

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Speaker 3: and that we are not just small meet for the machine.

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Speaker 3: And I hope that is what people take down from

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Speaker 3: today's judgment, both that we won the Google case and

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Speaker 3: it's final, and we won the Apple case and it's final.

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Speaker 1: That's Margaret Vesteer, Executive Vice President of the European Commission

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Speaker 1: for a Europe Fit for the Digital Age and Commission

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Speaker 1: for Competition. For more conversations like this one, subscribe to

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Talks podcast. I'm Charlie Pellett, and this is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg