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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Leftst Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Robin Greene, an executive producer of The Sopranos,

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Speaker 1: a writer for Rolling Stone, an author of the book

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Speaker 1: The Only Girl.

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Speaker 2: Why was the book called The Only Girl? Robin?

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Speaker 3: I seem to be chronically the only girl. I was

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Speaker 3: the only girl at Rolling Stone, not working there, but

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Speaker 3: on the masthead with eight boys, you know, with Hunter

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Speaker 3: and the Tim's you know, Tim k Hill, Tim Krause

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Speaker 3: and all those, and David Felton and me. You know,

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Speaker 3: there were like eleven guys and me on the masthead,

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Speaker 3: just purely by accident, but there it was. And then,

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Speaker 3: you know, I was the only girl on the on

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Speaker 3: the paper at Brown too. I went to Brown University

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Speaker 3: of Pembroke then, and they were all men there except me.

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Speaker 3: I was the only female editor. Girls were just you know,

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Speaker 3: they were meeting husbands, they weren't necessarily writing anything or

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Speaker 3: anything like that. So I just seemed to find myself

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Speaker 3: in that position. And it's also when a Sopranos too,

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Speaker 3: it was mostly there were some girls that came through women,

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Speaker 3: you know. Tony calem came on, wrote a script and

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Speaker 3: a few other women later, but first, for years I

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Speaker 3: was the only girl, so that it was a natural.

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Speaker 2: Okay, is that more a comment on you or the

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Speaker 2: other girls?

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Speaker 3: Both? And probably me? You know, I don't I've never

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Speaker 3: had like a real me too moment, you know, so

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Speaker 3: maybe I just don't notice or something that that I'm

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Speaker 3: a girl. I don't know. That's not really true, but

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Speaker 3: I don't know. It's a good question.

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Speaker 2: Well, growing up, were you always a guy's girl? Were

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Speaker 2: you friends with the boys or friends with the girls?

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Speaker 2: How did it work out?

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Speaker 3: Girls? Definitely? Yeah, No, I was a teeny bopper and

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Speaker 3: I had a girlfriends. I had three close girlfriends in Providence,

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Speaker 3: Rhode Island. You know, the music was just starting to happen,

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Speaker 3: so you know, there was dancing on the board walk

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Speaker 3: at Scarborough and you know, sort of disgraceful bathing suits

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Speaker 3: for the time and stuff like that. But I was

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Speaker 3: definitely I had girlfriends. I did have girlfriends, and then yeah,

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Speaker 3: I guess I started hanging out with guys, but not

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Speaker 3: without the girls, you know.

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Speaker 2: Okay. You know one thing that's clear in the book,

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Speaker 2: which is your autobiography, is you make left field choices

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Speaker 2: all the time, whereas today's kids seem to know what

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Speaker 2: they're going to do, and I'm going by road. From

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Speaker 2: a very young age, they see college as a trade school.

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Speaker 2: They go to work for the bank, they go to

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Speaker 2: work for Google. What'd your parents say about you? Constantly

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Speaker 2: sing we have an ivy leave education, but I'm going

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Speaker 2: with my boyfriend to Canada. You know I'm doing this.

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Speaker 3: They were horror horrified because, excuse me, I have a

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Speaker 3: little frog in my throat allergies from the autumn in

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Speaker 3: the country. But I got out of Pembroke and I

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Speaker 3: went immediately to Martha's Vineyard with a boyfriend, you know.

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Speaker 3: With my college it which my Ivy League education. You know,

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Speaker 3: I was the first generation to go to college. My

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Speaker 3: grandparents were immigrants and they lived upstairs. It was their

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Speaker 3: house we had. They owned the house. We went to

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Speaker 3: the downstairs flat. But my parents didn't go to college

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Speaker 3: for various reasons. They were very bright and funny. But I,

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Speaker 3: you know, me and me and my brother were the

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Speaker 3: ones that first went. It was very important for them

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Speaker 3: for me to go to an Ivy League school because

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Speaker 3: I had I had a free ride at full ride

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Speaker 3: at Risdie. You know that is an art.

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Speaker 2: School, Yeah, Road Island School Design.

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Speaker 3: So I got my Yes, so I got my because

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Speaker 3: I was a talented artist as a child, you know, girl.

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Speaker 3: But they wanted and also they didn't think I could

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Speaker 3: earn a living that way, and I had to take

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Speaker 3: typing and things like that because that's what girls did.

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Speaker 3: This was, you know, nineteen sixty three when I went

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Speaker 3: to college, so you know, the expectations and girls and

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Speaker 3: now they're like women are all my doctors practically, do

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Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Then it just wasn't so

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Speaker 3: at all. But anyway, I graduated and I went with

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Speaker 3: a boyfriend this sort of day class, a Greek American

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Speaker 3: from Providence, and we went to Martha's Vineyard and my waitress,

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Speaker 3: you know. So my parents were horrified whether that they

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Speaker 3: they they never withdrew their love. You know, they were

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Speaker 3: entertained by me. I brought home Jimmy Cliff's album and

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Speaker 3: showed them the dance and took them. I think they

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Speaker 3: took them to the movie Harder They Fall on, you know,

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Speaker 3: Providence on Fair Street, and they dug it, you know,

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Speaker 3: because so they were alive, you know, they used to

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Speaker 3: go down to New York and see plays and things.

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Speaker 3: So they sort of dug what happened to me, and

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Speaker 3: they were tolerant, although they'd make fun of me a

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Speaker 3: lot to their friend.

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Speaker 2: Made fun of you. Tell us more about that, well.

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Speaker 3: I mean they would say, Robin's looking for herself. She

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Speaker 3: thinks now she's in California. Stuff like that, you know.

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Speaker 3: Or once I had I had knitted. I was a

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Speaker 3: knitter one winter and I knitted this scarf that I

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Speaker 3: wore as a shawl in Berkeley. And it was the

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Speaker 3: days in Berkeley dressing.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I had this maddress floor length Indian dress was stunning,

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Speaker 3: wraparound really and I looked great. You know, I had

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Speaker 3: such a good figure as a girl. I didn't know it,

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Speaker 3: but I did, And so I wore the you know,

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Speaker 3: I was back in Providence visiting my family, and I

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Speaker 3: wore the white nick shawl, and my mother took my

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Speaker 3: grandmother's afghan that she had a crochet or something, you know,

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Speaker 3: this white big afghan and mocking me war it to

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Speaker 3: the cookout at the Barad's house. Do you understand, just

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Speaker 3: making me?

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Speaker 2: I understand?

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, she was making fun of the hippie look

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Speaker 3: and pearl Barad Ronnie's mother said to my mother, you're

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Speaker 3: making yourself look bad. Robin looks beautiful. But so my

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Speaker 3: mother was, Yeah, my mother was undermining my father was.

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Speaker 3: You know, he would just light up when I came

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Speaker 3: in the room, and she did too. Really they were great.

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Speaker 2: Okay, let's go sideways for a second. What did your

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Speaker 2: brother do in his life?

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Speaker 3: Oh God, thank God for Ronnie. He was two and

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Speaker 3: a half, two years four months older, and he was

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Speaker 3: kind of a real nerd. You know, I was the

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Speaker 3: talented one, and he had no rhythm. You know, he

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Speaker 3: wasn't good at piano hour. He was short, and then

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Speaker 3: he kind of blossomed in college. He didn't get into

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Speaker 3: hyvy league school. He went to u URI, you know.

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Speaker 2: U Uri University of Island.

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Speaker 3: It was an ivy league. He ended up by the well.

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Speaker 3: So he ended up by the way teaching a medicine

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Speaker 3: of all things. He's a neuroscientist, and he taught medicine

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Speaker 3: at Dartmouth his entire life. So he had this ivy

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Speaker 3: League experience. But the thing about him was he met

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Speaker 3: his wife while he was just coming into himself in

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Speaker 3: college in the biology lab. A friend of his parked

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Speaker 3: or with him, because you know, while he had to

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Speaker 3: go someplace on some weekend and you know, some kind

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Speaker 3: of homecoming weekend or something. But he parked his girlfriend,

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Speaker 3: Sue with Ronnie because he didn't consider Ronnie a threat.

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Speaker 3: Ronnie ended up marrying her and they've been married since

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Speaker 3: they were children, you know, and they have children. So

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Speaker 3: my brother had this. He was a doctor, which was

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Speaker 3: like god in the Jewish community, you know, you know,

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Speaker 3: we were all sort of all of the people in Providence,

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Speaker 3: especially in the Jewish community. I can't really speak for

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Speaker 3: any others. It was kind of an upscale Jewish part

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Speaker 3: of town. You know. The wasp fled when we moved

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Speaker 3: in in the fifties. They fled out to Barrington and

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Speaker 3: Bristol and stuff like that. But we were pawns in

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Speaker 3: their game, as Dylan I guest said, you know, and

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Speaker 3: so you know, it was important for you to be

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Speaker 3: a doctor or go to an Ivy League school just

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Speaker 3: to be in the sweepstakes, you know what I.

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Speaker 2: Mean, amplify pawns in their game.

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Speaker 3: Oh, isn't there like we were only pawns in their game.

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Speaker 2: No, that's definitely a Dylan line, but that it applied

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Speaker 2: to you in Providence because because.

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Speaker 3: You know, well, my daughter's going to Pembroke, my daughter,

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Speaker 3: my son is teaching at Dartmouth. Oh and where does

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Speaker 3: your girl go? Oh? Well, should be you? Oh that's

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Speaker 3: too bad, you know that sort of thing. There was

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Speaker 3: a contest and we won, My brother I won. We

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Speaker 3: were you know, we were the house. We didn't have

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Speaker 3: as much money as everybody else in that house. But

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Speaker 3: it was the smallest house in a good neighborhood, like

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Speaker 3: in like Who's the Who's the writer, you know, Jane

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Speaker 3: Austen or something novel, The smallest house in the nice neighborhood.

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Speaker 3: And we lived there. But it was to our house

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Speaker 3: that people came for fun. That's where the cocktails were happening,

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Speaker 3: do you know what I mean, That's where they were.

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Speaker 2: I grew up. I'm a little younger than you. But

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Speaker 2: it's amazing the life our parents led relative to ours.

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Speaker 2: It was like a floating party. They had a million friends.

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Speaker 2: They weren't looking to become famous, but the lifestyle was

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Speaker 2: pretty good.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. Where are you from.

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Speaker 2: I'm from Connecticut. I'm from Fairfield, Connecticut, which is fifteen

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Speaker 2: weeks from New York City. The most important thing that's

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Speaker 2: you know New York media. But I have an older

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Speaker 2: sister and a younger sister. We talk about it all

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Speaker 2: the time. They had a million friends. They were having

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Speaker 2: theme parties. How did your family end up in Providence?

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Speaker 3: Well, my grandmother it's like the Bayflowership. She actually was

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Speaker 3: born there, but no one else. Yeah, well that was one,

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Speaker 3: but the others were you know. You know, my grandfather

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Speaker 3: actually came from Russia. He was avoiding the draft, right,

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Speaker 3: Nicholas right, right? Yeah, So he's a Russian immigrant nineteen

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Speaker 3: seventeen draft dodger, and he came to Newark, Newark, New Jersey.

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Speaker 3: It was a butcher and I think that he killed

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Speaker 3: somebody there. Something happened and he had to get out,

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Speaker 3: and he came up to Providence. I guess, you know

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Speaker 3: Jewish people. That's how my grandmother came from Hungary and

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Speaker 3: she came to Providence because somebody else had come to Providence,

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Speaker 3: do you know what I mean? And she came illegally.

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Speaker 2: Wait wait too them, I know because all my mother's

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Speaker 2: family came to the Boston area. How did she come illegally?

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Speaker 3: Oh? She said she was someone's daughter and she wasn't

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Speaker 3: you know, I have actually she came with her with

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Speaker 3: her comforter, her down comforter, you know, Hungarian down, Hungarian down, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: a ghost down or something. My mother put it in

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Speaker 3: her couch, the goost down, and then I have it

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Speaker 3: in something here. I can't remember what exactly, but we

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Speaker 3: kept that down going, you know. But she came. She

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Speaker 3: had that's all she had. She has had a straw

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Speaker 3: hamper with this down down comforter in it, and she

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Speaker 3: was gorgeous. She was like six feet tall. My grandfather

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Speaker 3: was this little crude Jewish barrel chested criminal. Really he

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Speaker 3: was a bootlegger and he was a gangster. He was,

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Speaker 3: you know, he had I think he had a gun,

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Speaker 3: but you know there. I didn't put it together then,

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Speaker 3: but later in life when I worked for Sopranos, I

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Speaker 3: could see that's what he was, and I talked to

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Speaker 3: my mother about it, and for sure, you know, they

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Speaker 3: because she would live in many many places in Wickford,

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Speaker 3: for instance, because that the boats would come in from Canada.

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Speaker 3: So my grandfather, my little Jewish grandfather would go down

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Speaker 3: there with his men and his gun and receive the

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Speaker 3: barrels and protect the booze from you know, other gangsters.

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Speaker 3: I guess they would try to take it and then

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Speaker 3: they would actually make They had Gordon's gin labels and

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Speaker 3: so they would bottle the illegal gin in this you know,

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Speaker 3: these Gordon and put the Gordon and I drank Gordon's

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Speaker 3: gin to this day, and so did my parents did

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Speaker 3: so did your parents have cocktails and things?

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Speaker 2: My father owned a liquor store. That's how he earned

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Speaker 2: his living for a long time.

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Speaker 3: That's what Grandpa did. After proefficient ended, he had a

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Speaker 3: liquor store left to trade pictures, right.

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Speaker 2: What about the other side of your family.

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Speaker 3: Oh, they were kind of Jewish, you know, like Grandpa.

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Speaker 3: They were both named Morris, but that Grandpa Morris green Grenawskamshire.

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Speaker 3: At some point he was an immigrant, tall, handsome. He

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Speaker 3: had a cap factory and they had cars and they

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Speaker 3: were doing very well. And then my father's older brother

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Speaker 3: got epilepsy. He had a grandma seizure. But he was

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Speaker 3: giving the valedictorian speech at his high school and it

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Speaker 3: was there was no Ti Lanton then, and so he

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Speaker 3: was at Brown, which was very unusual for jew in

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Speaker 3: those days. It was the twenties, I think, and he

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Speaker 3: had to stop going to Brown because Brown University this

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Speaker 3: is where I went because it was freaking everybody out.

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Speaker 3: These seizures were so grotesque and scary. So he went

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Speaker 3: home and the family kind of failed after that. So

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Speaker 3: Dad stepped in. My charming, funny father, very talented performer,

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Speaker 3: and he supported the family however he could. Oh, then

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Speaker 3: he wanted to be in a stock market, but it

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Speaker 3: was nineteen twenty nine. But still he was the funniest.

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Speaker 3: You know. He loved people. He looked at people and

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Speaker 3: he appreciated them, and he ended up his life in

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Speaker 3: a happy job. He became a sales representative so he

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Speaker 3: could go in his car and charm people with his

249
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Speaker 3: sample cases. He was Willy Lowman, but without the Dan Draft.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're in Providence.

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Speaker 3: We live in going.

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Speaker 2: No, it is perfect, perfect, you're in.

254
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Speaker 3: I get going. I don't shut up or something.

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Speaker 2: No, no, perfect, keep rolling all right. There are fifty

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Speaker 2: states in America. There are many institutions of higher learning.

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Speaker 2: Your brother and your yourself just end up in Providence.

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Speaker 2: You don't think, well, maybe I'll go to New York City,

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Speaker 2: I'll go to New Haven, I'll go somewhere else.

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Speaker 3: I means for college. Yeah, well no, I was scared

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Speaker 3: and uh, number one and number two I didn't get

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Speaker 3: into brandeis those pricks.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting to get especially by today's standards,

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Speaker 2: because it's certainly reversed. Okay, many people there. The line

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Speaker 2: of demarcation is when the Beatles hit basically January of

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Speaker 2: sixty four. You were into music before that. For a

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Speaker 2: lot of people are unaware of what it was like.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about your interest in music then before the Beatles.

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Speaker 3: Oh, man, well, definitely, you know, I guess the first

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Speaker 3: thing I evers stole was Elvis Presley forty five, right,

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Speaker 3: Elvis Presley must have been thirteen. And my friend Ronnie

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Speaker 3: was a really talented singer, the one that killed herself.

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Speaker 3: She was also named Ronnie. As a matter of fact.

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Speaker 3: Her personality was so strong that we called my brother

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Speaker 3: Ronnie Green differentiated because there was only one Ronnie. But

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Speaker 3: she was my best friend. We were born two weeks apart,

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Speaker 3: and we you know, it was the Watusi. It was

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Speaker 3: all that kind of teeny bopper music. I know, the

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Speaker 3: lyrics to like a million songs, those teeny bopper songs.

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Speaker 3: And then oh then you know guys, the cool guys

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Speaker 3: at Moses Brown there was this one guy, Joel'sas I think.

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Speaker 2: Which is a private high school in the Rhode Island.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's where the which you know, which those who

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Speaker 3: could afford it, My friends, a lot of them went

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Speaker 3: to the private school. It was a girls was Lincoln

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Speaker 3: and the boys was Moses Brown and Wheeler. But Joel's

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Speaker 3: Auce I think he still plays around. Have you ever

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00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:23,879
Speaker 3: heard that name?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Joelsas wrote too Long at the Fear, the

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Speaker 2: opening song on the second side of the second Bonnie

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Speaker 2: Right album. Loved that song.

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Speaker 3: No, really, Joel.

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Speaker 2: That's wonderful about Joel Sauce and musicians cos s Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: I've heard from him a couple of times.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god. Well, I don't know if you'd remember me,

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Speaker 3: but he went to Moses Brown and he was a

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Speaker 3: friend of my boyfriend David Leech's, and so you know,

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Speaker 3: he was the barefoot kid with a guitar, you see,

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Speaker 3: And we would go to clubs and stuff, and I

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Speaker 3: was at the first row of the Newport Jazz Festival

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Speaker 3: with David. David was a huge music lover and of

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Speaker 3: jazz and he you know, when I lived with him

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Speaker 3: in Chicago. I can't remember exactly the details, but we

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Speaker 3: saw like Mangus or somebody, you know, really important jazz people.

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Speaker 3: I was so stoned all the time though. I just

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Speaker 3: don't remember the details unfortunately, but I know we did

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Speaker 3: go to clubs and black clubs and hear black musicians.

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Speaker 3: But you know, he took me to the Newport Jazz Festival.

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Speaker 3: We sat in the first row. You know.

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Speaker 2: Okay, you're in college when the Beatles hit? How did

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Speaker 2: you first hear the Beatles? Into? What impact did they

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Speaker 2: have for you and your friends?

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Speaker 3: Well? I didn't have any friends at college.

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Speaker 2: But wait, let's just slow that you were living at

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Speaker 2: home or living in the dorm.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I lived well, first of all, they had this

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Speaker 3: sort of dorm for townies, which I was that it was.

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Speaker 3: It was just a shithole. Now it's the like Vegan dorm.

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Speaker 3: You know. It was this old funky house, so they

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Speaker 3: would they let the towny stay there. And then after

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Speaker 3: a semester they let me. They gave me a room

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Speaker 3: at the actual college with others, you know, with four

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Speaker 3: three other girls. And the next year after that I

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Speaker 3: had a single. I mean, I rose very quickly at

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Speaker 3: the university, but I didn't have any friends really, and

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Speaker 3: I don't. I don't think music was. I know that

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Speaker 3: my one friend, one girl I did know, was really

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Speaker 3: into Dylan, but I wasn't at that point. But the

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Speaker 3: Beatles definitely, you know. I just remember which album was

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Speaker 3: Rubber Soul that was later, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Rubber Soul was sixty five, So.

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Speaker 3: When did they show up? Sixty four?

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Speaker 2: They showed up in January of sixty four, and Rever

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00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 2: Seoul was the end of sixty five. Then Revolver was

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Speaker 2: sixty six, and Sergeant Pepper.

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00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,160
Speaker 3: Was Yeah, no, yeah, I remember, I want to hold

337
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,160
Speaker 3: your hand and all that. Sure, Yeah, I love it it, Okay?

338
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Speaker 2: How come you had no friends? Usually people go to

339
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 2: college and make friends.

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Speaker 3: Hmm. It just wasn't my scene. I didn't like it

341
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Speaker 3: very much the first year. I didn't the girls were

342
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 3: too preppy or something. I just didn't attach. And I

343
00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,919
Speaker 3: was very serious about school, you know, classes and things,

344
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Speaker 3: and you know, I had this kind of you know,

345
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,000
Speaker 3: I wore jeans and black sweaters and black boots and

346
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 3: had an art board and went down the hill to

347
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Speaker 3: Rizdy to take courses. I was kind of a beatnik,

348
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Speaker 3: and so I I just wasn't, you know, I think

349
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Speaker 3: I went to a football game once and had a

350
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 3: date once, you know, it went to a fraternity party.

351
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Speaker 3: But I didn't like it. I just didn't like it. It

352
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,840
Speaker 3: wasn't my scene. And I kept my Providence friends and

353
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Speaker 3: that actually led to you know, I was friends with

354
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Speaker 3: my boyfriend David. One of his friends at Moses Brown

355
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 3: was the Raymond Patriarch Junior. Raymond Patriarch Junior was the

356
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 3: son of the head of the New England mafia, Raymond

357
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 3: Patriarch Senior.

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Speaker 2: So you know, they did a whole podcast about that.

359
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 2: What do you mean about the patriarchis he did? Oh? Absolutely?

360
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 3: Oh my god?

361
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Speaker 2: A few years ago. You know why my podcast Who

362
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 2: Knows Why the people started doing there were multiple seasons

363
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 2: about the Patriarch family. You did no, I mean I

364
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 2: I listened to it. I didn't do it.

365
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,399
Speaker 3: Oh you didn't do it. But there was one yes, Ah,

366
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,400
Speaker 3: I say, well, you know, the Godfather book hadn't come

367
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,679
Speaker 3: out yet. The movie of course hadn't come out yet.

368
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,959
Speaker 3: But I was I didn't know my grandfather was a

369
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 3: small time gangster. But I was just so fascinated and

370
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,680
Speaker 3: kind of excited by the whole scene, you know, because

371
00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 3: Raymond Junior, who's a friend of my boyfriend. You know,

372
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 3: I got friends with his girlfriend, Rosemary Scanlon, and she

373
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: lived near Brown. So I just escaped Brown and went

374
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 3: and stayed with her down the hill with her and

375
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 3: her roommate, you know, in one room or something. You know,

376
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 3: she and ray Junior used to go into the closet

377
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 3: and have sex in there, and I wrote about it.

378
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 3: That was my first short story. Actually it was my

379
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 3: second short story, but nobody you know, I wrote this

380
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: pretty good short story that got me, you know, I

381
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 3: became the editor of the literary magazine. And they read

382
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:58,119
Speaker 3: it at this huge convocation of blonde girls. Do you

383
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 3: understand I was understand. I keep saying that to you,

384
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 3: but you do understand. But I was alienated. I would

385
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 3: say I was scared alienated. So I pretended and I

386
00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 3: guess maybe I was cool, you know, maybe I was hip.

387
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Speaker 2: It's possible, okay, if they read it at this convocation.

388
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: Did you envision yourself becoming a writer.

389
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 3: Yes, But then there was this magazine contest that Mademoiselle

390
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 3: magazine had a contest, so I entered it with this story,

391
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 3: you know, and when they read it in front of

392
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 3: three hundred people that it was an editor from the

393
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:44,520
Speaker 3: New Yorker that came up and read it. It wasn't

394
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 3: some schmuck off the street, you know what I mean.

395
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 3: So it was really a big deal. So I sent

396
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 3: it off to the the Mademoiselle contest and I didn't win,

397
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Speaker 3: so I just gave it up as an idea.

398
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Speaker 2: Interesting. Okay, you've had these high points in your career.

399
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 2: Did Brown ever track you down after the fact to speak,

400
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,880
Speaker 2: to give money, to give an award or anything like that.

401
00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 3: Yes, I can't remember the award, but I did go

402
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 3: up there. Mitch was with me. I just remember it

403
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 3: because of the traffic jam was terrible. But I, you know,

404
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 3: I gave some kind of seminar and then the minute

405
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 3: I had any money at all, I gave them ten

406
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. And that to me was just a lot

407
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 3: of money because I come, you know, my family, my father,

408
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 3: he lived in the future. There was debt, it was

409
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 3: credit card debt. There was no money at all. But

410
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 3: we lived very well somehow, you know, in the nice

411
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 3: house with beautiful furniture, nice friends and all that kind

412
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,919
Speaker 3: of thing. And everyone knew, you know, we had no money.

413
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 3: But I don't know. So ten thousand dollars was you know,

414
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 3: that's what he made a year. My father made ten

415
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,200
Speaker 3: dollars a year in the fifties, Sure he did, And

416
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 3: so I gave them. And then we went mentioned and

417
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,479
Speaker 3: I went to some event at the Goggenheim. And you know,

418
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 3: now when we go to events at Iowa, we're a

419
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 3: big deal because we give them. I don't even want

420
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 3: to say how much, you know what.

421
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,920
Speaker 2: I mean, everything the Iowa Writers' Workshop, the.

422
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 3: Iowa Writers Worship, but also the University of Iowa Public

423
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 3: Institution because and a lot of it is because Brown

424
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 3: was like, you know, fa fong gul. You know, I'll

425
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:41,840
Speaker 3: show you. And also they have a huge endowment. They

426
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: didn't really need my ten thousand dollars, and they certainly don't.

427
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 3: They don't need my money now either. But Iowa does

428
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: you know, Irack can use it?

429
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 2: Okay? When you went to Brown, did your father pay

430
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 2: or did you get any help from Brown?

431
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 3: I got a scholar ship from the state of one

432
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 3: thousand dollars a year. The tuition was that it covered

433
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 3: a intuition, and I think my father paid for the dorm.

434
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 3: He did, he paid for the dorm I worked. Also,

435
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,360
Speaker 3: I worked in a factory in the summer. I worked

436
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: at you know, I wasn't an intern somewhere with no pay.

437
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: I was a waitress or I was working. I like

438
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 3: to work. I like them. I like them. I like

439
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 3: waitressing because you pick up the money off the table.

440
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 3: Maybe you don't anymore, but I just like the cash

441
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: aspect to it.

442
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 2: Okay, you graduate from college, although you ultimately go to

443
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 2: the vineyard. I think you said, what was your intention?

444
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: What was your plan after graduating from college?

445
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. We stayed on a vineyard till November.

446
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 2: So, well that's way past the season.

447
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is kind of past the season. And he

448
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 3: became a cook, so we lived upstairs in the restaurant

449
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,199
Speaker 3: Louise Tate King. This kind of it was fun. And

450
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 3: then we moved to Boston. I thought I would go

451
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: into publishing, you know, so I did. I got a

452
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 3: job at Houghton Mifflin. That's a big house in Boston,

453
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 3: publishing house. And I got a job in the production department,

454
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 3: like with like figures and spreadsheets and stuff. I don't

455
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: even know what I was doing, but I took a

456
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 3: detour and I went and I checked out the editorial

457
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 3: department because that's sort of what I was aiming for.

458
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: This was an entry level job, and it just looked

459
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 3: like a drag. It looked like a drag, you know,

460
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 3: I was it was. It was you know, sixty seven.

461
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 3: It was you know, something was in the air, you know,

462
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,679
Speaker 3: and it was too like straight. The men didn't appeal

463
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: to me. Nobody looked at me. Actually that was part

464
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 3: of it. Those men, they didn't even look up from

465
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 3: their desks, and they were all men behind those desks.

466
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: So I think I left my boyfriend. He worked at

467
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 3: a restaurant, managing a restaurant. I think I can't remember

468
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 3: if I waited. No, I was at my hoton Mifflin.

469
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: So he was working at the restaurant where I used

470
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 3: to waitress years ago before that. But he cheated on me.

471
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 3: He didn't come home one night, and he married that

472
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 3: girl and had four children with her. So it was

473
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 3: good for him because I didn't have good, pure intentions

474
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 3: towards him. Men functioned in my life as kind of

475
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 3: tickets out. I mean, I'm burying my soul to you

476
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: a little bit. But that's how I went to Cali.

477
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 3: I didn't go to California on my own. You know,

478
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: A man took me to New Poor Jazz Festival. You know,

479
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 3: a man put the headphones on my head and played

480
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: the records and chose the records. And so I had

481
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 3: music through men, and I had transportation through men. Or

482
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 3: I wouldn't go to cities alone, you know, I would go.

483
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: Well, was it more that you saw the opportunity or

484
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 2: that you were fearful?

485
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: Both? Although I did go to New York by myself,

486
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: I did, No, that's bullshit. I went to New York

487
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 3: by myself.

488
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: I did, Okay, your boyfriend cheats on you. You're working

489
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 2: it out, love Beflynn.

490
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 3: Oh well, first I had an affair with a guy

491
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 3: across the hall, and then I went home to Providence,

492
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 3: and it was December. This all took place like a month,

493
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 3: because then when you're young, time is very slow, you

494
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 3: know what I mean. A lot happens, like so much

495
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 3: happened in just nineteen sixty seven. In nineteen sixty eight,

496
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 3: you probably experienced that. You're vaguely my general. I think

497
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 3: you're my husband's generation. Actually, so you know, I don't

498
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: think it was that much different. It's still Vietnam, and

499
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 3: of Vietnam when you were coming up he wasted. Yeah,

500
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 3: so time was slow, and so I went back to Providence.

501
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 3: I played mel Brooks's two thousand year Old Man continually

502
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 3: on my Hi Fi on my turntable for like a week,

503
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 3: maybe more. You know, I just played that record over

504
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 3: and over again. I can't tell you why. I don't

505
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: have any idea, but then I was ready. I felt better. Oh,

506
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 3: my parents had given me luggage as a graduation president.

507
00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: I guess that was their sense of humor. But it

508
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 3: was also very useful, you know, this blue American tourist set.

509
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 3: So I packed that up and I went down to

510
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 3: the Martha Washington Hotel for Women because I had read

511
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: about it in a book in Marjorie Morning Star. I mean,

512
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: this is this That's what got me. You know, that's

513
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 3: how sort of in cohateed and goalless. I was, oh, yeah,

514
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: i'll be like that, you know, I'll go to live

515
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 3: in in New York. And I forgot the part about

516
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: where she moves to Scarsdale and Mary's a doctor, you know,

517
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 3: I just got to the New York part. And I

518
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 3: went to New York and I rented one apartment and

519
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 3: then another apartment. I was there again. It was just

520
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 3: nine months, but it was a lifetime, you know. And

521
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: I got a job. I went to a temp agency.

522
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 3: I knew one person in New York, a girl that

523
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 3: I did know at Brown Pembroke. She lived in the

524
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: singles dorm next door to me, and she was the

525
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 3: one that liked Dylan and she remained a figure in

526
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: my life for a long time. But we don't, for

527
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 3: one reason or another, speak anymore. I'll speak to her,

528
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: but I think she's mad at me. But I knew

529
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: her in New York. But I also, oh, I just

530
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: remember some people came to a party that she gave

531
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: me and I went home with them to Brooklyn. I

532
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: knew this person later in life too, Vicky Robin and

533
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 3: Mark Ledgerd. I think they were married at that point.

534
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 3: Maybe anyway, I was at their house and they put

535
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: on my head earphones and it was Frank Zappa right

536
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 3: ime for that first record, and they said, you just

537
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 3: got to listen to this, you know. I think they

538
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 3: got me stoned, you know, and they made me listen

539
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 3: to this thing, and that was life changing. You know

540
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 3: what's this now? You know?

541
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,320
Speaker 2: Well, I mean that first double album for weak out.

542
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 2: You didn't try to call me in trouble coming every day.

543
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 2: There was a subversiveness, a sense of humor, and an

544
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 2: attitude that we rarely see, certainly in music or any

545
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 2: mainstream movies. But okay, you're in New York. No was

546
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: Susie Susie cream cheese shirt shirt?

547
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 3: That was I remember. I can't remember what I ate

548
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: for dinner, not any any dinner for for like five years.

549
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: I was talking to my husband about that. Today. I

550
00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: can't remember what David and I ate, you know, oh

551
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 3: we never cooked. We must have eaten something. But I

552
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 3: remember Susie Kuzzy cream Cheese and all the words to

553
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 3: all the songs because the music was so you know,

554
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 3: David would come through town, he'd come through New York

555
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,959
Speaker 3: and take me to stuff. We went to the Fillmore East,

556
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 3: so Janice Joplin, you know that was my girl music.

557
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 3: That's what I liked.

558
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 2: So you're in New York City and you get a job.

559
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I got a job for work. I was well,

560
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,239
Speaker 3: I was sent on three. I wanted to be an

561
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 3: editorial assistant because I had a liberal arts education and

562
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 3: so and you know, writing was like I wouldn't even

563
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 3: think about that. But they sent me to two advertising agencies,

564
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 3: and they sent me to Marvel Comics. You know, I

565
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 3: was the closest they came to a book and I

566
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,200
Speaker 3: was hired. I didn't like the advertising agency and one

567
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 3: of them didn't like me, but they but Stanley hired me,

568
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 3: and phlo Steinberg was leaving. She she liked me, and

569
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 3: she introduced me to Stand and he took me on.

570
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 3: So I was with him. I was his you know,

571
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 3: his office was across the hall, like five feet away,

572
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 3: and I would answer the phone, you know. And I

573
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 3: was supposed to also communicate with fans, the fan club.

574
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 3: You know. I didn't like comics, so I didn't really

575
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 3: care what they said or but I suppose I did

576
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 3: my job. I don't remember. Really. It was kind of stupid.

577
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 3: But the people were nice, you know, they were square,

578
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 3: they were really square, and New York was square, and

579
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: I felt, again I didn't belong there. It was like

580
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 3: at Pembroke. I just you know, felt alienated, I guess,

581
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 3: but I wasn't unhappy. I just didn't It wasn't going

582
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 3: to work for me. It wasn't what I wanted.

583
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: Oh, okay, is that a theme throughout your life that

584
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: you're alienated or you still alien today.

585
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 3: I think alienated's probably the wrong word. Just gosh, here

586
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:14,959
Speaker 3: I am supposed to be good with words. Just trying

587
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 3: to find myself. My parents were right, you know, where

588
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 3: did I fit in? Where do I belong? I saw

589
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 3: Rolling Stone magazine and I thought, well, that looks like

590
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 3: fun Boy. They're having fun out there on the Bay Area.

591
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,879
Speaker 2: Well before we get there, you're working for stan Lee.

592
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: You go to Canada with your boyfriend and then you

593
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: just never go back.

594
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was bad. And this nice little apartment

595
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: on Bleeker Street, one room with like wal to well

596
00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 3: cockroaches but beams in the ceilings. I hung a swing,

597
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,839
Speaker 3: I had a fireplace. It was kind of cool. And

598
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 3: my parents helped me furniture. We got a trundle bed

599
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 3: and that was about it for furniture. But and I

600
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 3: got a cat, and David came through and he wanted

601
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 3: to go to Canada. And we went up to Canada

602
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 3: and we had a weekend there was I had never

603
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 3: been to a foreign country and they were like talking

604
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,000
Speaker 3: French and stuff in Montreal. It blew my mind. And

605
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 3: you know that we stayed in a place that had

606
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 3: a sink in the room, in the bedroom that was

607
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,959
Speaker 3: so exotic. And then it was time to go home.

608
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 3: He had to go back to Chicago, to the University

609
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 3: of Chicago where he was a student, and I had

610
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 3: to go back to my job in New York. We

611
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 3: went to the airport and they wouldn't take my check.

612
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 3: Hit my check, they wouldn't take his check. He didn't

613
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 3: want to use his father's credit card because his father

614
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: would know that he had bought me a plane ticket somewhere,

615
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 3: you know. So he said, well, you want to come

616
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: with me? And so I said, yeah, I do want

617
00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: to go. So I went, I went. I guess. I

618
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: called Stan on Monday. This was a Sunday, and I

619
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 3: called on Monday from Chicago because I think it's very

620
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 3: close to Montreal, Chicago, right and.

621
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: Not really no, pretty far, but okay, like what.

622
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 3: Like twelve hours Yeah, yeah, okay, So I called it,

623
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 3: you know. So we drove and on Monday, when I

624
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,440
Speaker 3: was supposed to go to work, I called Stan and

625
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 3: I told him I got hung up and I wasn't

626
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 3: going to come to work. And he he just he said,

627
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 3: because usually he just was very everything had an explanation point.

628
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 3: He was very effusive, but he was like, you got

629
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 3: hung up. What does that even mean?

630
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: You know?

631
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 3: And I just said, he said, you're not coming back

632
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 3: at all? I said no. I called my parents and

633
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 3: I told him I wasn't going back. And the cat was, Oh,

634
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 3: the cat was with somebody else by the one friend

635
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: I had, Tory, And would they pick up the cat

636
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 3: and the bundle bed and take them back to Providence?

637
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: And they did. That's the kind of parents they were.

638
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 3: They I don't know, I don't know. They were very

639
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 3: upset that I was living with David. What am I

640
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 3: going to tell my friends? You know? That kind of thing.

641
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 3: My mother said, because people didn't do that then at all.

642
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 3: It was just starting I expose. But they did that.

643
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 3: They were they were amused. I think I think it

644
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 3: just they loved that I was living. That's the feeling. Listen.

645
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 3: I don't know. I can't go into their heads.

646
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: I don't.

647
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 3: They never chastised me for they just went down. They

648
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: borrowed a friend's car of station wagon, drove it three

649
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 3: and a half hours to New York, picked up the

650
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 3: trundle bed and the cat. These are Jews who now

651
00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 3: own a cat which was not done, and a black

652
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 3: and white cat. They knew some tuty and they kept

653
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 3: that cat and loved that cat.

654
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: Did you go to Chicago? How do you end up

655
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: in California?

656
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 3: Well? I was there. David, my boyfriend from Providence, was

657
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,320
Speaker 3: a rich man's son, and he had just enough money

658
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 3: to live. He had enough money to buy lapsing sou

659
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: jong tea and pot and had a great car, you know,

660
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 3: a Firebird convertible remember those. Of course, first cart had

661
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 3: was even better. It was like a Chevy and pallet

662
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 3: was red with you know, the back wings and things.

663
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 3: A convertible just a tool around of that thing. But

664
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 3: when we went out to California in the Firebird, but

665
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: it was in Chicago the Firebird, I guess. We took

666
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 3: the Firebird from Montreal down to Chicago. And that's a

667
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 3: whole other story. Why he had to stay in school

668
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 3: that winter because he was just pretending to go to

669
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: graduate school. He used the money from graduate school to

670
00:39:53,960 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 3: pay lawyers because putting some pot in my mailbox in

671
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 3: New York City, he got arrested, was discovered, got arrested anyway,

672
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 3: So he had to go back to Chicago and pretend

673
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,359
Speaker 3: to be going to graduate school, and I went with

674
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 3: him and I got a job. I was George Schultz's secretary,

675
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 3: you know who that is. I know, and David as

676
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,479
Speaker 3: a rich man's son who didn't work at all. Ever,

677
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 3: he couldn't believe that I could go out in the

678
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: morning and come home and have a job, you know,

679
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 3: but I couldn't. I couldn't lead his life. It drove

680
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 3: me nuts, you know, to do nothing. And I wanted

681
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 3: to have my own money. I didn't have anything I had.

682
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 3: He used to joke about me that all I had

683
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 3: was a toothbrush and a pair of underpants, and that

684
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 3: was true, you know, I had like two skirts. I

685
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: didn't care. I just didn't care. I was just was

686
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 3: I an alienator, a loner? I don't know. Oh, I

687
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 3: won't tell my mother. I would tell my mother I'm

688
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 3: not like the other girls, and she would say, what

689
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 3: do you mean? Are you a lesbian? You know, because

690
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 3: you know that was her I guess that was what

691
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 3: she was afraid of, and maybe today I would have been,

692
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 3: but I said, no, it's not that they're all. All

693
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 3: they want is to get married. And I didn't want

694
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 3: my mother's life. I didn't want to spend my life

695
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 3: cooking dinner. I just didn't want to do it. So

696
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,399
Speaker 3: what is that is that alienation? Is that because there's

697
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:33,799
Speaker 3: a lot of.

698
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: Things going on, it's the era alienation really could be separate.

699
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: But how long are you in Chicago before you get to.

700
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 3: Northern nine months?

701
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: And then how do you end? What's the motivation for

702
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: the two of you to move to California?

703
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 3: Well, we didn't move to California. We got in the car. Well,

704
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 3: we did move. We didn't have any He had stuff,

705
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 3: actually had some things shipped out. I believe, yes, he

706
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 3: did furniture did of anything. We got in the car.

707
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 3: I think it took us six weeks to drive out

708
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 3: to California. It was a six week drive, you know,

709
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 3: it could take two days, but we went. That was

710
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 3: the thing about David and about being with them, is

711
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 3: that we went through Carbondale and grooved on the you know,

712
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 3: waterfalls there, and then we went to New Mexico and

713
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 3: stayed there for a week. And I had never camped,

714
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 3: you know, out We camped in the Hemez Mountains. We

715
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 3: grazed naked by a hot spring. There was a watercrest

716
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: growing and we grazed, stoned out of her mind. So

717
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 3: there was with another couple. There was no there was

718
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 3: no sex with the other couple or anything like that.

719
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 3: But we were just free. We were hippies. You know,

720
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 3: I had never shot in the woods. I didn't know

721
00:42:49,440 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 3: that was possible. It just you know, David was he's

722
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 3: gone now. He died, you know, he died of a

723
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 3: heart attack. But he he he was a philosopher, you know.

724
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:13,880
Speaker 3: It was a sad, unrealized human being who was nonetheless

725
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: very interesting and fun and imaginative in terms of like

726
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: he took the back roads. He took the back roads.

727
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 3: And I went with him on the back roads in

728
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: the car, in the in the in the Firebird convertible,

729
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 3: and we stopped in New Mexico and and camped in

730
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: the mountains and met, you know, people who had been drunk,

731
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 3: you know, been heroin addicts actually, who had an opera

732
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 3: house in Cirios outside of Santa Fe. It was just

733
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 3: it was so exciting, all that shit, you know, because

734
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 3: communes were happening, it was starting, you know. And then

735
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 3: so we went to l A first because he because

736
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:56,799
Speaker 3: he knew some people in la We stayed at their

737
00:43:56,840 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 3: house older people, you know, grown ups got I you know,

738
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 3: was what was his name, Murray Golden. He directed television shows.

739
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 3: And he said to me, what do you want in

740
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:10,720
Speaker 3: your life? And I told him, and it was exactly

741
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 3: what happened. You know, I became a writer. I told

742
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,879
Speaker 3: him I wanted to be a writer. So I must

743
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 3: have had it in my head, you know, I wrote

744
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 3: my short stories were really good at Brown, So you know,

745
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 3: I did have an idea that I would do that.

746
00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 3: And I told Murray, who no one had really asked me,

747
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 3: I don't think, but you know he was. He was

748
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 3: directing television shows, so that was you know, I didn't

749
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 3: know you could do that, and I didn't know you

750
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: could get a house like that, you know on mulhulland

751
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 3: Drive and everything. That appealed to me a great deal.

752
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 3: And I returned to it later at life. But meanwhile,

753
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 3: David and I went up the coast, you know that

754
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 3: Route one in California, which I'm sure you know right

755
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 3: of course, of course, yeah, And we stopped in the

756
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 3: woods right outside of Big Her and we pulled the

757
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 3: car in to smoke a joint. You know, David was

758
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 3: always smoking a joint, and it was beautiful, you know,

759
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 3: was below with the redwoods in this little grove. And

760
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 3: I found a four leaf clover and I'm here. I

761
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,919
Speaker 3: am moving to California and to find a four leaf

762
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 3: clover and to be stoned at the same time. You know,

763
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 3: what more could a girl want? You know, I was

764
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 3: still alienated is the wrong word. But I was lost

765
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 3: or shy or I could hardly speak. I didn't speak.

766
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 3: I didn't speak. Now I don't shut up, But then

767
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 3: I didn't talk. You know, David talked and he didn't

768
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 3: talk much. He didn't really I want to talk. He

769
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 3: wanted to groove. He wanted to eat Sarah leave palm

770
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 3: cake and drink laugh saying sudjong tea and smoke pot

771
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 3: and later cocaine. That's what happened to him. I'm digressing

772
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 3: wildly here.

773
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: You end up in the Bay Area.

774
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 3: We drove, but he knew people in the Bay Area.

775
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 3: He knew people. He did so and those and people

776
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 3: came and stayed with us in a little apartment on

777
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 3: University Avenue in Fox Court. Is really wonderful place, beautiful place.

778
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 3: But you know it's just one room in a kitchen,

779
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 3: but high enough to put a loft bed in, so

780
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 3: David had a friend build it. You know, he didn't

781
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 3: build it. He had a friend built the loft that

782
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 3: we slept in. But I got a job down at

783
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 3: his lordships in the Marena wearing a little tu two

784
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 3: you know, waitressing, but wearing a tutu in a little

785
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 3: push up bra and a little cap, you know, an

786
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 3: apron like a servant. And I did that for a

787
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 3: long time. You know. I learned how to make jewelry

788
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 3: and belly dance. I took belly dance lesson. Sorry, what

789
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 3: was the sixties? You know it was nineteen sixty nine.

790
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 2: How'd you end up at Rolling Stone?

791
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 3: Well, my friend Tory, the one friend I had that

792
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 3: loved Dylan and lived in the next room at a

793
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 3: single weird girl's dorm, said what are you doing with

794
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 3: your life? From? And you know, what are you doing?

795
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 3: She was getting married, So, you know, she initiated a

796
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 3: flurry of communication. She was on the ladder up in

797
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 3: the publishing world, and she later became, you know, she

798
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 3: was an agent in that segment of it, and she

799
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 3: became she had her own agency at the end of things.

800
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 3: But then she was working for a fellow named Alan Rinsler,

801
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 3: and he had just come to found Straight Arrow Books,

802
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,959
Speaker 3: which was the book division of rolling Stone, and she said,

803
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 3: at least go be around it. You know, you wanted

804
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 3: to be in that world. Just go and talk to

805
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 3: Alan and see if he's got anything for you to

806
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 3: do in the office. So I did. I borrowed David's car,

807
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 3: and I went across the water, you know, across the

808
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:23,280
Speaker 3: Bay Bridge, and parked the car on Third Street. Because

809
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 3: rolling Stone was in this industrial area. I don't know

810
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 3: what it is now, but it was in this brick

811
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 3: you know, it had been some kind of factory or something.

812
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 3: It was so cool. And I went up there and

813
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 3: I walked out. Oh no, Alan said, I'll set up

814
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,240
Speaker 3: a meeting with Yawn Winner. Why don't you try writing?

815
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 3: Have you ever thought of that? Tory said, you were

816
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 3: a good writer. So that's how it happened. I mean

817
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 3: that happens in life, right, It's not how it goes.

818
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 3: But then when you get the chance, you have to

819
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: be able to produce. That's what happened in time. You

820
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 3: have to be half the goods as it were, you know,

821
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 3: or have somebody at least put up with you until

822
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 3: you proved you had the goods. So I went back

823
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 3: to Berkeley, and you know, and I made a box

824
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 3: to go into this. I made a box with all

825
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 3: my life in it, you know, my my Marvel comic books,

826
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 3: my magazine that I edited, the literary magazine from Brown

827
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 3: that I had a story and all that kind of thing,

828
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 3: and some cookies, and I sent it to Yan. Did

829
00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 3: I send it or drop it off or something? Anyway,

830
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 3: I went in there to talk to y on winter

831
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:46,319
Speaker 3: and I left with an assignment. You know, I left

832
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 3: with an assignment.

833
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: Well, you know it's in the book. Did he just

834
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: spontaneously say write something? Or did you have to convince them?

835
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 3: No? No, no, he said he. I don't know. I

836
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 3: think he was very impressed with the Brown thing. See,

837
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 3: my parents were right. He was impressed. You know, he

838
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 3: sort of got this prep school lockjaw tone when he

839
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 3: spoke about it, very eastern sort of thing that you

840
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 3: could see that he was impressed by that. So I

841
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 3: think that got his attention. I don't think he cared

842
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 3: about the box very much. And I don't think he

843
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 3: cared about my long legs very much either. I mean,

844
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 3: he came out later as gay, and so he just didn't.

845
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 3: You know, he didn't approach me that way. You know,

846
00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 3: he didn't have any I didn't get a feeling that

847
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 3: he looked at me as a female, which was fine.

848
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 3: I wasn't that super aware of that sort of thing anyway.

849
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 3: But anyway, I left. I left with an assignment because

850
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 3: he said, you should write. Can you write something about

851
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 3: Marvel Comics? I always said, what was it like to

852
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 3: work at Marvel Comics? That's what he said, because that

853
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,760
Speaker 3: was in the box. That's how it started. He said,

854
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 3: what was it like to work at Marvel Comics? So

855
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 3: I said, I don't know. They were kind of square,

856
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 3: you know. Whatever I said was interesting enough to him

857
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 3: or funny enough that he thought, okay, you know, because

858
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 3: he could see that I had been a writer and

859
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 3: that I had been an editor and all this sort

860
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,399
Speaker 3: of thing. And I guess Alan and Rinsler told him

861
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 3: that I was a good writer at Brown and so

862
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 3: I left with an assignment, and I was just I

863
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,240
Speaker 3: couldn't believe it. You know. I drove home. I get home,

864
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 3: David's there with this friend of his that's legally blind

865
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 3: was his name. He's dead now too. But and this

866
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 3: girl who didn't speak she was so stoned. The whole

867
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 3: room was like full of you know, pot smoke. It

868
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,879
Speaker 3: was just like this cloud of pot smoke walking into

869
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 3: the room. I was so excited to have this assignment.

870
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 3: It was just like a amazing to me. But it

871
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 3: was uncool to show any evidence of excitement. Do you understand?

872
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:15,360
Speaker 3: Absolutely it was not done to get to get an assignment.

873
00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 3: These people were just cooler than that or something. You know,

874
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 3: work was not valued.

875
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,400
Speaker 2: You write this piece, it takes a long time to

876
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 2: come out. Then you go to New Mexico to talk

877
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: to David Hopper about the last David. Of course it's Dennis.

878
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:42,799
Speaker 2: That's the first thing that I remember reading that you wrote.

879
00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:47,479
Speaker 2: So Hopper had just come off Easy Rider, he had

880
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 2: Free Reign. Ultimately, the last movie was a disaster. No

881
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 2: one knew what he was doing. Now there you go

882
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,799
Speaker 2: down to New Mexico and have an adventure, tell us

883
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 2: about that, and you.

884
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 3: Know it's a cult. It's a big cult movie. Now

885
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 3: the last pictures I've ever seen a movie? No, I

886
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 3: haven't either, No, and I didn't dig at me. You know,

887
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 3: it was just well, if I had done another piece

888
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 3: before that, I went and did a piece about the

889
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 3: bee gees of just a little tiny piece. But this

890
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 3: was my first assignment to get on a plane with

891
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,399
Speaker 3: Annie Leebervit. She was just starting off there the same

892
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 3: as me, but a different type than me, well.

893
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: Just a little bit slower because you go into the

894
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 2: How would you describe her type?

895
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 3: Oh, well, you know, she was an army brat. She

896
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:45,760
Speaker 3: was six feet tall. She wore like size eleven boots.

897
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 3: She sort of strode through life very singular. But as

898
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 3: an army brat, I think she was used to being

899
00:53:56,600 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 3: in different situations. She didn't need to please anyone. She

900
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 3: was just very unto herself, very contained. That was my

901
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 3: experience of her. And I was just like probably needy,

902
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 3: you know, emotional or just not not even emotional, just unexpressive, uptight, scared,

903
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 3: But she was much more at ease. But I endured

904
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 3: this very uncomfortable scene at Hopper's house. I was and

905
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 3: I'd been in that sort of scene before where I

906
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 3: was with a lot of really hip people and scared,

907
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 3: mute practically, but bearing it just curious, and in this

908
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:48,959
Speaker 3: instance I was going to gain something from it because

909
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 3: I was going to write about it. So I had

910
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,720
Speaker 3: my tape recorder Oh, it's one of those, he said,

911
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 3: you know, and then he started really he was so stoned.

912
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,960
Speaker 3: I don't know what he was taking. They were passing

913
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 3: run some sort of bag full of ground up mushrooms.

914
00:55:05,320 --> 00:55:08,799
Speaker 3: You know. Everybody was just completely stoned. It was it

915
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 3: was Kit Carson's movie and Larry Schiller. You know those guys, right,

916
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 3: So that's who They were doing a documentary about Dennis

917
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 3: Hopper's making of the Last movie. And Dennis Hopper was

918
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 3: just really boring and boorish and and I've never really

919
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 3: been around a Hollywood scene, and it was ugly and scary,

920
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 3: and it was actually got so uncomfortable. What was it?

921
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 3: I got so uncomfortable with it? Oh, I know that

922
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 3: Dennis Hopper. And and immensuacious is that the word? You know,

923
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,480
Speaker 3: the guy that kind of looked after him. They were

924
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:55,759
Speaker 3: just so cruel to this one guy who was down

925
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 3: there was a junket, so there was all the cream

926
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 3: of the underground press, but its representative Rolling Stone. I

927
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 3: was like the cream de la creme, you know, And

928
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 3: I just wished to witness an act of cruelty that

929
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,400
Speaker 3: they just were mean to this. I guess it was

930
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 3: a pr guy about his girlfriend, and they did this

931
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,480
Speaker 3: joke in front of all the journalists, you know, like,

932
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 3: can I ask you a favor? I just was wondering,

933
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:28,240
Speaker 3: Bill or whatever the kid's name was, if you would

934
00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,839
Speaker 3: mind leaving your secretary girlfriend with me for the night.

935
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 3: And he didn't know what to say, and he said,

936
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:41,320
Speaker 3: I don't know where is she? And he and Dennis

937
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 3: Hopper said she's out there in her car getting her things.

938
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 3: It was a done deal, you see, And so everyone

939
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 3: laughed and I freaked out and I went out into

940
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 3: the desert. I don't know how I thought I was

941
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 3: going to get home, because he had he lived in

942
00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 3: free To Dodge's house. Isn't it the person and Mabel

943
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 3: Dodge Freedom, Well, it was d H. Lawrence's house. That's

944
00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 3: where he lived when he lived in New Mexico with

945
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 3: free To Dodge, Mabel Dodge something and so, you know,

946
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 3: and as a literature major, I was just like really

947
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 3: taken with that. But it was the opposite of that,

948
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 3: or maybe it was like that. I don't know, But anyway,

949
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 3: I was in the middle of nowhere and I went

950
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 3: out into the desert at night, and Kit Carson followed

951
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 3: me and he gave me a ride back to the motel.

952
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 3: Annie had already left because she was smart. She could

953
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 3: see she didn't have to do anything else. She'd already

954
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,919
Speaker 3: got her pictures. Although Larry Shuley was critical of her

955
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 3: picture taking in that instance, she was just starting off

956
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 3: in her career. But so she shared a motel room.

957
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 3: She was back to the motel room. So he gave

958
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 3: me a ride, and I just wrote about it. I

959
00:57:57,080 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 3: wrote exactly what happened all of that that I've just

960
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 3: told you and more, because you know, the pieces were

961
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 3: you paid by the word, and they were from five

962
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 3: thousand to ten thousand words, so you could get some money,

963
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 3: you know, because it was ten cents a word. My

964
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 3: price went up from five cents to ten cents a word.

965
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 3: At that point, maybe you'd have a thousand dollars. But

966
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 3: I never had that much money at once, so that

967
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 3: was really something.

968
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,120
Speaker 2: Okay, a couple of things. Did you live off the

969
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:27,439
Speaker 2: money you were making from Rolling Stone? Was it enough?

970
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, you didn't need anything? Then? Remember and I

971
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:39,560
Speaker 3: broke up with my boyfriend David. I left, and it

972
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 3: got a little room up in the hills in somebody's

973
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 3: house to other people, you know, it wasn't hippie commune

974
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 3: or anything. We just shared this really nice house, a funky, funky,

975
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,200
Speaker 3: funky house on a stream above the campus on tamil

976
00:58:54,240 --> 00:58:58,400
Speaker 3: Pias Road. Really beautiful, I mean, in my room was beautiful.

977
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 3: And up in that room, Kit Carson, who took me

978
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 3: home that night, you know who took me back to

979
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 3: the motel that night and dropped me off. He became

980
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 3: a friend, and he was at Joan Didion's house in

981
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 3: Malibu and he called me. He said, I have someone

982
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:20,320
Speaker 3: here who read your piece on Dennis Hopper and she

983
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 3: wanted you to know how much she liked it. And

984
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 3: you know, I had June Didions all, you know, I

985
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 3: had her books, and it was just that was the

986
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 3: most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. Really, that

987
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,120
Speaker 3: and that in the sopranos, right at the highlights.

988
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 2: But your pieces were a little different from the standard

989
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 2: fear and that you weren't sick a fantic, You were

990
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 2: somewhat from a distance. You weren't buying into the bs.

991
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 2: Would that be an accurate description.

992
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, Irony, you know, to be an ironist, I called

993
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 3: it alienating. But isn't the writer always outside of things?

994
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 3: Looking in always, you know, an observer. And so it's

995
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 3: more that I was that kind of person. I was

996
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 3: raised that way. You know. We didn't we didn't speak.

997
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 3: We watched, we watched it, We took it all in.

998
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 3: You know. I was an observer. I was an observer

999
01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 3: and so and it's not pleasant to be that person.

1000
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 3: You want to be part of things. I mean, that's

1001
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 3: the thing is Annie could really be part of things

1002
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 3: much later, to her detriment, because she became she went

1003
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,320
Speaker 3: on the bus, if you know what I mean, And

1004
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 3: she came out of it okay, but for a while

1005
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 3: there she was lost in it. I could. I always

1006
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,120
Speaker 3: had to be apart from it, and that was my thing.

1007
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 3: You know. Leon Winner and his book, you know, he

1008
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 3: had that book come out a while ago. Was it

1009
01:00:54,720 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 3: a memoir? I think it was, yeah, And I wasn't

1010
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 3: going to buy it, but I looked in the index.

1011
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 3: I wasn't, but he mentioned me twice, so I bought it,

1012
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 3: you know, and he called me relentless. So I guess

1013
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 3: that's what I was. You know.

1014
01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 2: So, what are a couple of other things you wrote

1015
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 2: for Rolling Stone?

1016
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 3: Well, the Marvel piece became a cover that was a

1017
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: good piece, and I wrote, Uh, I just flew out

1018
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,560
Speaker 3: of my head. Oh, I wrote, you know, I was

1019
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 3: in a book called the Mind Fuckers, along with the

1020
01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 3: piece of David Felton and David Dalton's they wrote pieces

1021
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:48,400
Speaker 3: on mel Lyman, uh and these gurus, you know, mel

1022
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 3: Lyman and Manson. But I wrote the you know, comic relief,

1023
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:56,720
Speaker 3: ironic funny stuff, you know about Victor Bronco, who's like

1024
01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 3: the Colonel Sanders of the Commune me I think that's

1025
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 3: what we called him. And so that was collected in

1026
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 3: a book called mind Fuckers, published by Straight or Oppress.

1027
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 3: But of course nobody could buy a book called mind Fuckers,

1028
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 3: and they disguised it on the cover with this kind

1029
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 3: of German type, so you couldn't even read it. You know.

1030
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 3: It's just like I know this guy out here now

1031
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 3: called Bob Lipsite. I get his name confused with yours.

1032
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 3: Do you know who he is. He's a sports the

1033
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 3: sports guy. Yeah, yeah, the sports writer. He's out here.

1034
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 3: It's Shelter Island, that's where I live now, and you know,

1035
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:36,439
Speaker 3: among other places. But he wrote a book with Dick

1036
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:42,800
Speaker 3: Gregory years ago called Nigger And yeah, now you know

1037
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:45,000
Speaker 3: I can't even I have to hide it when the

1038
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 3: cleaning crew comes, you know what I mean, because I

1039
01:02:46,960 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 3: don't want to like of Knox anyone. Actually, it's just

1040
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:52,480
Speaker 3: on the shelf. I don't think anyone notices it. I

1041
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 3: finally took it out and said, fuck it. You know

1042
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 3: that's what it's called them. But it's just you're not

1043
01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 3: even supposed to say that word. It pains me to

1044
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 3: say it, so mind fuckers. Was that kind of bad mistake?

1045
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 2: You know?

1046
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 3: But I got a call from England just the other

1047
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,960
Speaker 3: day wanting to interview with me about that book. You know,

1048
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 3: it still has a life because then after we came

1049
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 3: out with that book, Jim Jones happened, and these these

1050
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 3: scors were a precursor to that. So it didn't surprise

1051
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 3: me at all. You know that Manson was pretty horrible,

1052
01:03:28,920 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 3: but you know, the others were not nearly as odious.

1053
01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 3: And I did some other stuff too, but nothing. Oh,

1054
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:38,160
Speaker 3: I did Black Sabbath. You know, they just sick me

1055
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:44,080
Speaker 3: on things to be funny, and finally I did the

1056
01:03:44,160 --> 01:03:45,000
Speaker 3: Kennedy story.

1057
01:03:45,080 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 2: Well, before you get there, were you part of the

1058
01:03:48,400 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 2: roving club? Did you go into the office or were

1059
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 2: you separate?

1060
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 3: M you know, at one point, no, it was separate.

1061
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 3: But at one point Johan and that's why, you know,

1062
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 3: he he just wasn't sexist at all. He wanted me

1063
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 3: there and he he invited me to come to the

1064
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:13,680
Speaker 3: editorial meeting, which was all those men, and he set

1065
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 3: up a desk and he brought the lamp himself, right,

1066
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 3: you know, outside of this, you know, in the in

1067
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 3: the bullpen with the secretary and stuff. But you know,

1068
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 3: I didn't have my own cubicle. And I mean David

1069
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 3: Felton was, you know, an editor there, and he only

1070
01:04:27,360 --> 01:04:30,360
Speaker 3: had a tiny cubicle. Nobody had these offices. Only Yahn

1071
01:04:30,480 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 3: had and it wasn't even that fancy either. But so

1072
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 3: I was there, but I didn't like it at the

1073
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 3: editorial meeting. I didn't like it. I don't like the

1074
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 3: table that exists in comedy in television. I just don't

1075
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 3: like that jockeying for attention and haha stuff. I just

1076
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 3: I wasn't going to make it in that context.

1077
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 2: Well, one of the other things you talk about was

1078
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 2: the sexual element. There were people were married but sleeping

1079
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:04,960
Speaker 2: with other people. Was that the nature of Rolling Stone

1080
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:06,280
Speaker 2: or was it just the times?

1081
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 3: I think it was the Times, don't you Yeah, but

1082
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 3: I'm talking to you. I don't know what were you doing. Look,

1083
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:21,479
Speaker 3: you know, Jan gave me from I thought he would

1084
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:23,920
Speaker 3: be my editor. You know, I don't know why I

1085
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 3: thought that, because he had because he was the one

1086
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 3: I talked to. But he gave me to David Felton

1087
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 3: across the way. He introduced me, and that was pretty

1088
01:05:32,040 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 3: much it. You know. But David Felton's family, his wife

1089
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:40,480
Speaker 3: was down in Los Angeles, and so I, you know,

1090
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 3: I began to have a relationship, shall we say, with

1091
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 3: David Felton. I was a single myself, and he didn't

1092
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 3: seem to uh mind that he was cheating on this

1093
01:05:55,000 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 3: family or he just they were very separate. It was

1094
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 3: a very separate deal and I didn't really know than

1095
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 3: how sort of you know, he had substance problems with

1096
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 3: alcohol and stuff. I wasn't aware of that. I just

1097
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:16,520
Speaker 3: wasn't aware of it. So you know that that got

1098
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 3: worse as time went on, and it did for a

1099
01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 3: lot of people that I knew at that point. I

1100
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 3: was never for some reason, I'm just not that kind

1101
01:06:24,160 --> 01:06:27,840
Speaker 3: of an addict. Drugs were just not you know. I

1102
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 3: remember at one point in Mexico, I got a hold

1103
01:06:31,280 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 3: of a hundred vallium and I took them, you know,

1104
01:06:35,280 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 3: week after week. You know, so I did. I like Valium.

1105
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 3: Thank goodness, nobody offered me heroin. I probably would have

1106
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 3: loved it. But I just wasn't that cool. I just wasn't.

1107
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 3: I wasn't really that. I wasn't that cool. I was

1108
01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 3: I was, you know, valium cool.

1109
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:56,160
Speaker 2: Okay, it ends Rolling Stone with the Kennedy story. Tell

1110
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 2: us that story.

1111
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,160
Speaker 3: I guess it was Yon's idea that I should go

1112
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,880
Speaker 3: and interview the children of Robert Kennedy. I don't think

1113
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 3: he said much more than that, but he wanted the Kennedys,

1114
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 3: you know, And if I had written this story, he

1115
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been able to be friends with Jackie. So

1116
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 3: but it wasn't her kids. It was the other kids.

1117
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 3: But even still, you know, so I left the younger

1118
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 3: ones alone. I figured, you know, you can't be going

1119
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 3: after you know, elementary school children, but the ones in college,

1120
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 3: in the ones of college age, I did pursue. I

1121
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 3: don't even know what the idea was. I guess you wren't.

1122
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 3: And why he would send me, of all people, because

1123
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 3: of course I was going to find out like if

1124
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 3: they were you know, drugiaes or you know, I was

1125
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 3: going to get the dirt on them. They didn't particularly well.

1126
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 3: Joe actually Joe was a kid, Joe, right, the one

1127
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 3: who was in the accident that killed the girl. He

1128
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 3: was willing to be interviewed. And we met in San Francisco,

1129
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:59,320
Speaker 3: and I knew it would be nervous, so I would.

1130
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 3: I had a tape recorder in my pocket book, and

1131
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 3: we went for a long walk all over in the

1132
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:10,680
Speaker 3: hills of San Francisco, and we got to the marina

1133
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:13,800
Speaker 3: and he turned to me and he said, do you sail?

1134
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 3: It was just it was perfect, you know, do I sail?

1135
01:08:18,200 --> 01:08:22,040
Speaker 3: You know, I have like fifty dollars you know, out sale.

1136
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 3: But that's who they were. They were, you know, very

1137
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:31,240
Speaker 3: privileged kids ran amok in that place that they have

1138
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:32,719
Speaker 3: on the is it the vineyard?

1139
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:33,040
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1140
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 3: No, in the cape.

1141
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:36,440
Speaker 2: Hyanna's port was where.

1142
01:08:36,360 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 3: Uh, Hyena's port, right, that's where the house was. You know.

1143
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:46,560
Speaker 3: They kind of ran wild around there. And then I

1144
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:48,520
Speaker 3: got home, of course, and I was going to transcribe

1145
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:50,600
Speaker 3: the tape, because that's what I did. I transcribed the

1146
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 3: tapes and I used things pretty much verbatim that I

1147
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:57,080
Speaker 3: got from those tapes. But the tape was all traffic

1148
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 3: noise in the pounding against my leg of so I

1149
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:02,599
Speaker 3: don't have it. All I remember is that he said,

1150
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 3: do you sail? And it was kind of opaque as

1151
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 3: a human being. And then I went to Harvard where

1152
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 3: the girl was what's her name, Catherine, Catherine, I guess, yeah,

1153
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:21,439
Speaker 3: and yeah, Catherine Kennedy. And I waited her, you know,

1154
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:24,360
Speaker 3: I accosted her in her dorm room hallway. It was

1155
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 3: so obnoxious. Oh god, I just cringe. And she was

1156
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:29,920
Speaker 3: this patient she could be, and she finally said, look,

1157
01:09:29,960 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 3: I just can't do this, and she took me into

1158
01:09:32,240 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 3: her room. I forget. I just it was never really

1159
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 3: prepared very much for interviews. I just wanted to, you know,

1160
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:40,600
Speaker 3: see what happened. I was kind of a slob, and so,

1161
01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,200
Speaker 3: you know, I just that was my m O. I

1162
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 3: just experienced, had the experience, and then I wrote about it.

1163
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 3: I wasn't a slab, that was what I did. And

1164
01:09:50,800 --> 01:09:52,840
Speaker 3: you know, I was kind of disarming, so people would

1165
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 3: just blab and that's that would be my modus OPERENDI

1166
01:09:56,360 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 3: but that it just seemed so kind of harm lesson

1167
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 3: at shy or something. So anyway, she got rid of me,

1168
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:09,280
Speaker 3: and then I I cost it. I waited for Robert

1169
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 3: Kennedy Jr. Outside his dorm room. Now Robert Kennedy Junr.

1170
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:16,360
Speaker 3: Is the one who's running for president.

1171
01:10:16,479 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 2: I know we're going to get to that.

1172
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:23,639
Speaker 3: I cannot believe it. It's just who he became is so bizarre.

1173
01:10:24,320 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 3: That skin and that stutter or something. I don't know

1174
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 3: what happened to him. He just is like calcified in

1175
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 3: some way. He was just this like really handsome, tall

1176
01:10:36,439 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 3: hippie kid with long hair and jeans. And it was

1177
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 3: and here I was a writer for Rolling Stone, like

1178
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 3: you saw in Almost Famous, you know, kind of this

1179
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 3: loose girl with a short skirt. I don't remember what

1180
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 3: I was wearing, but probably something like that. I mean,

1181
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 3: my nickname it Marvel Comics was Legs, So you can

1182
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 3: kind of imagine what my feature, best feature was in

1183
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 3: those days. But we went down. He said, I have

1184
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:09,800
Speaker 3: to meet a guy for you know, then we can talk.

1185
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:13,320
Speaker 3: And so we went down to right off Harvard Square

1186
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 3: in front of the Hazen's Diner, to that corner there,

1187
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 3: and he scored some die lauded, which is you know,

1188
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 3: I had an operation recently and it gave me some

1189
01:11:28,200 --> 01:11:31,479
Speaker 3: of that stuff. It's very heavy. I don't know why

1190
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:34,719
Speaker 3: anyone would take it recreationally, but people like that stuff.

1191
01:11:36,800 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 3: So we went back to his dorm room and he

1192
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:46,280
Speaker 3: had this waterbed on the floor, and he had the

1193
01:11:46,320 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 3: bust of his father on the credenza, and he had

1194
01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:58,080
Speaker 3: falconry equipment on the wall. That's falconry equipment. What's that

1195
01:11:58,640 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 3: falconry equipment? You know what? Who? And so naturally I

1196
01:12:04,600 --> 01:12:09,960
Speaker 3: ended up spending the night and and this is really

1197
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 3: my I mean, my husband doesn't like any of the

1198
01:12:13,320 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 3: stuff about what happened when I was on the loose

1199
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 3: because I spent like five days with David Cassidy touring

1200
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 3: in New York and in Wayne and Maine, Lewiston, Maine,

1201
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 3: was at someplace in Maine. You know, it was just

1202
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:35,080
Speaker 3: on my own. Nothing happened with David Cassidy. But maybe

1203
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 3: it happened with somebody else there, but maybe a roadie

1204
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:45,559
Speaker 3: or something. But my husband really doesn't like this part

1205
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:49,519
Speaker 3: of the book. It doesn't want to know about this stuff.

1206
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 2: Okay, but let's let's let's zero what you did have

1207
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 2: sex with RFK Junior. I did, Okay, what was going

1208
01:12:58,439 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 2: through your mind?

1209
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:08,320
Speaker 3: What do you mean?

1210
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:13,400
Speaker 2: I mean you're in a situation. Okay, yeah, and you

1211
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:17,719
Speaker 2: know that on one hand, you're in this situation, haven't urged,

1212
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:20,920
Speaker 2: but you also established you're an observer and you know

1213
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 2: this is compromising, So there's a choice involved. You're an

1214
01:13:24,920 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 2: intelligent person. You can't see so well, I don't know.

1215
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,920
Speaker 2: It just happened, yeah, kind of happened. But you were thinking.

1216
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:36,000
Speaker 3: Now, I think that it was I frankly think in

1217
01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:39,560
Speaker 3: hindsight and even maybe at the time it was journalistic

1218
01:13:39,680 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 3: instinct that I would learn something about this clan and

1219
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 3: I did.

1220
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:51,639
Speaker 2: Okay, But you did something, Okay, so then it's over.

1221
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:56,200
Speaker 3: Do you I learned the source? I think of their

1222
01:13:56,240 --> 01:14:02,120
Speaker 3: of their general uh self, you know, confidence and cockiness,

1223
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:08,000
Speaker 3: So what is it? Giant? You know? Remember this one

1224
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,720
Speaker 3: person anyway? Just you know, you know what they say

1225
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:17,240
Speaker 3: about Pete Davidson. I can't say it, you know, okay, okay,

1226
01:14:17,240 --> 01:14:20,559
Speaker 3: but I did the article, but maybe I don't even

1227
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:21,320
Speaker 3: know if I did.

1228
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:25,799
Speaker 2: You know, But did you see this as all? Because

1229
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 2: ultimately it does become an issue? You see this as

1230
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,640
Speaker 2: all is a great story, but this is going to

1231
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:31,599
Speaker 2: fuck up the article.

1232
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:34,880
Speaker 3: You know. It wasn't just that. It wasn't just that

1233
01:14:35,120 --> 01:14:37,719
Speaker 3: it was everything that I had to say about those children,

1234
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:46,559
Speaker 3: about the drug taking. It was assassin job. I didn't

1235
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:52,639
Speaker 3: want to expose the that tragic family and these young people,

1236
01:14:52,720 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 3: these college aged people, to that kind of notice. It

1237
01:14:59,080 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 3: was really because I couldn't I have written about that.

1238
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:04,400
Speaker 3: Maybe I did it so that I couldn't write about it.

1239
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:07,439
Speaker 3: Maybe I did subconsciously. It's possible, but I don't think

1240
01:15:07,479 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 3: I was thinking that far ahead.

1241
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 2: But whatever happens there that ends up ending your tenure

1242
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone. So why don't you tell us that?

1243
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:22,000
Speaker 3: Well, I didn't write the story because I couldn't write

1244
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:27,400
Speaker 3: the story without telling that. Right, Well, if I'm so honest,

1245
01:15:27,560 --> 01:15:30,360
Speaker 3: you know, if i'm you know, and that's what I think.

1246
01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:32,680
Speaker 3: I wanted the book to be honest, and it was

1247
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:34,880
Speaker 3: for the most part. And there were things that I

1248
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:39,960
Speaker 3: left out to protect myself, but not much, not much,

1249
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:44,680
Speaker 3: but something some persons, just one big thing about me

1250
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 3: that I didn't want to talk is no, it is,

1251
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,160
Speaker 3: It isn't it was. It was just because it was

1252
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:58,600
Speaker 3: the reason that Annie. Annie didn't like it didn't like

1253
01:15:58,680 --> 01:16:03,800
Speaker 3: me because of it. But it just really that I

1254
01:16:03,840 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 3: had nose job when I was sixteen, And you know,

1255
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:11,760
Speaker 3: I always thought I would write about it, because I

1256
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 3: didn't put it in the book because I didn't want

1257
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 3: because I was ashamed. I mean, now I'm telling you said,

1258
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:20,720
Speaker 3: you go deep, this is it. Okay, that's it.

1259
01:16:20,800 --> 01:16:23,439
Speaker 2: Okay, As I say, I'm glad you told me, because

1260
01:16:23,479 --> 01:16:27,600
Speaker 2: one's imagined it should much wilder than that.

1261
01:16:28,320 --> 01:16:31,000
Speaker 3: No, No, it's really just it really is just that

1262
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 3: I was ashamed that. You know, my parents, they just

1263
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:40,240
Speaker 3: was afraid that I looked like my father, do you

1264
01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 3: know what I mean? My mother had this little nose.

1265
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,479
Speaker 3: She was a model, you know, a fashion model and

1266
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,240
Speaker 3: beautiful and beautiful, hungarian, little nose, straight nose, and I

1267
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:52,679
Speaker 3: had my father's nose.

1268
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:52,880
Speaker 2: You know.

1269
01:16:52,920 --> 01:16:57,519
Speaker 3: It wasn't like Lilian's Hellman's nose anything, or Annie's nose,

1270
01:16:57,680 --> 01:17:01,320
Speaker 3: you know. But when Annie heard that, maybe she even

1271
01:17:01,400 --> 01:17:05,280
Speaker 3: asked me, she just lost respect for me, and it

1272
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:08,599
Speaker 3: was fairly painful, and I didn't want to. I didn't

1273
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:10,920
Speaker 3: put that in the book, and I felt.

1274
01:17:11,040 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 2: How old were you when you had your nose jobs?

1275
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:15,480
Speaker 3: Sixteen? I just turned seventeen.

1276
01:17:16,080 --> 01:17:18,400
Speaker 2: Did it change your life at all?

1277
01:17:18,439 --> 01:17:21,839
Speaker 3: Probably? I think that who knows what would have happened

1278
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:24,240
Speaker 3: if I had to suffer that note. Maybe I would

1279
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:27,800
Speaker 3: have stayed in Providence and been a real writer, a

1280
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:32,040
Speaker 3: fiction writer. Maybe I would have been really great. Do

1281
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 3: you know what I mean? Maybe?

1282
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:35,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know what you mean. But at this point,

1283
01:17:35,720 --> 01:17:38,200
Speaker 2: you know, I guess that you know. Now we live

1284
01:17:38,240 --> 01:17:41,920
Speaker 2: in the era of ozembic and you see these women

1285
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,200
Speaker 2: who've lost a very significant amount of weight on TikTok

1286
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,960
Speaker 2: and they say, you know, some express all this confidence,

1287
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:52,719
Speaker 2: and people say they get plastic surgery for self confidence whatever. Well,

1288
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 2: people treat them differently. Did you find that people treat them?

1289
01:17:56,200 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 3: Yes? Absolutely, yes, I wanted you know, the doctor of

1290
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:02,600
Speaker 3: my parents, who had no money, took me down to

1291
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:05,679
Speaker 3: New York City and I had the most expensive nose

1292
01:18:05,760 --> 01:18:07,760
Speaker 3: job you could possibly buy, because they wanted it to

1293
01:18:07,800 --> 01:18:11,080
Speaker 3: be really good. And so was doctor ALFREDX, who invented

1294
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:13,479
Speaker 3: the Afch method, and he had an office on Park

1295
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 3: Avenue and Australia Austrian accent, I guess our German as angels,

1296
01:18:17,240 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 3: tell me, why do you want to have this operation?

1297
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:24,680
Speaker 3: He said? A sixteen year old girl, and I said

1298
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:30,320
Speaker 3: I want to be pretty, you know. I mean if

1299
01:18:30,360 --> 01:18:31,960
Speaker 3: I had said I want to be an axe morder,

1300
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 3: he probably would have also done it. You know, I

1301
01:18:34,160 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 3: just looked kind of a thing is that It's like, well,

1302
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:38,639
Speaker 3: don't you think you're pretty? You're perfectly I mean, any

1303
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:45,519
Speaker 3: any mother or anybody, you know, anybody would say, well,

1304
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 3: you're beautiful the way you are. Isn't that what people

1305
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:52,000
Speaker 3: say now, you know? And so I'll never know what

1306
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:55,519
Speaker 3: I would have looked like, this is not my face.

1307
01:18:55,560 --> 01:18:59,960
Speaker 3: And you're like Marlo Thomas, you know, God bless her whatever,

1308
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:03,880
Speaker 3: or you know that little nose doesn't change over time.

1309
01:19:04,280 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 3: I mean, I'll go on about this for an hour.

1310
01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,440
Speaker 3: You don't want me to, but it's a huge subject

1311
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:11,680
Speaker 3: for me, and I always thought I would write about it,

1312
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:12,320
Speaker 3: but I haven't.

1313
01:19:12,600 --> 01:19:16,160
Speaker 2: Wait. Wait, the huge subject is the nose job or

1314
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:17,440
Speaker 2: cosmetic surgery.

1315
01:19:17,840 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 3: No, the nose job, cosmetic surgery. Who gives a ship?

1316
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 3: I mean, you have a facelift, God bless you know.

1317
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:27,400
Speaker 3: It's just that when you go around fucking around with

1318
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:31,680
Speaker 3: something like your nose, you change your face to the

1319
01:19:31,760 --> 01:19:35,560
Speaker 3: world and it's a damage that you can't undo. You

1320
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:40,520
Speaker 3: and you don't. You don't. I didn't grow into myself.

1321
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 3: It was a way of escaping myself and my parents

1322
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:48,680
Speaker 3: and my father colluded, he didn't, you know. And they

1323
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:50,640
Speaker 3: did this in the advice of a friend of his,

1324
01:19:50,920 --> 01:19:56,240
Speaker 3: theirs from New York City, you know who. He said,

1325
01:19:56,479 --> 01:20:00,639
Speaker 3: Robin's so bright, but with that nose on her face,

1326
01:20:00,760 --> 01:20:03,559
Speaker 3: you know, she, you know, that will really be a

1327
01:20:03,640 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 3: hindrance for her. This radiologist, he was a doctor, you know,

1328
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:10,479
Speaker 3: from New York City, a friend of theirs that moved

1329
01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:13,839
Speaker 3: to Providence, whose wife later committed suicide in the attic,

1330
01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:16,360
Speaker 3: you know, And because he was having an affair with

1331
01:20:17,320 --> 01:20:19,600
Speaker 3: you know. I mean, this is the person that my

1332
01:20:19,720 --> 01:20:23,080
Speaker 3: parents listened to. I didn't have like Annie had a

1333
01:20:23,240 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 3: spine enough, because I did. I wanted to be pretty.

1334
01:20:26,479 --> 01:20:28,880
Speaker 3: I wanted to look like Natalie, would you know?

1335
01:20:29,280 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 2: Okay, So just to be clear, the motivation for the

1336
01:20:32,400 --> 01:20:36,920
Speaker 2: nose job came from you or came from your parents.

1337
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:41,120
Speaker 2: And if you could snap your fingers now, would you

1338
01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 2: or would you have not gotten a nose job?

1339
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:47,880
Speaker 3: I think that's an impossible question to answer, really, but no,

1340
01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:52,040
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have if I had it to do over again. No,

1341
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:54,760
Speaker 3: because I don't. I see pictures of myself and I

1342
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:57,679
Speaker 3: feel like tender towards that person. She I don't look

1343
01:20:57,720 --> 01:20:59,920
Speaker 3: that bad. I don't think. I don't know I should.

1344
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:03,080
Speaker 3: I have the pictures, I have my medical pictures. I

1345
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:06,799
Speaker 3: don't have any straight ant on. I don't have frontal pictures,

1346
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,479
Speaker 3: so I can't age them, which I would love to do.

1347
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:14,920
Speaker 3: It probably look like you, you know, I would look

1348
01:21:15,000 --> 01:21:18,439
Speaker 3: more like what I was supposed to look like or something.

1349
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:21,960
Speaker 3: I just think I did that girl a disservice.

1350
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 2: Okay, just staying on something you said with your husband

1351
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:31,640
Speaker 2: disapproving of you commenting about your prior life, especially involving

1352
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:37,200
Speaker 2: sexual activity. Yeah, this is not the nineteen fifties. Never

1353
01:21:37,240 --> 01:21:41,479
Speaker 2: mind the nineteen forties. We all have a sexual past.

1354
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 2: Everybody we've been involved with has had multiple partners. Except

1355
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:50,080
Speaker 2: for one person. Everybody who I've had a relationship with

1356
01:21:50,200 --> 01:21:53,480
Speaker 2: had an abortion. I mean, this is in all our histories.

1357
01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:56,400
Speaker 2: Why do you think he is anxious about it?

1358
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:09,280
Speaker 3: I just don't think he finds it very admirable that

1359
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:13,719
Speaker 3: I that I was so loose, or he just doesn't

1360
01:22:13,840 --> 01:22:17,519
Speaker 3: like to hear about it, and he didn't like it

1361
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:23,360
Speaker 3: to be so public and he he had. He aside

1362
01:22:23,360 --> 01:22:32,800
Speaker 3: from that, is not that engaged in the book, has

1363
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:36,200
Speaker 3: never said about the writing or anything like that. Nothing.

1364
01:22:37,800 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 2: You've expressed numerous times your Jewish background. Your husband is

1365
01:22:44,479 --> 01:22:47,599
Speaker 2: not Jewish. Do you think a Jewish guy would react differently.

1366
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:53,559
Speaker 3: I have no idea. I don't know. That's you know,

1367
01:22:53,760 --> 01:23:00,200
Speaker 3: this is yeah maybe maybe, I don't know. I don't know.

1368
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,200
Speaker 3: David was my Jewish guy, and he was really only

1369
01:23:03,280 --> 01:23:06,040
Speaker 3: half Jewish, the other half was Portuguese.

1370
01:23:07,320 --> 01:23:12,600
Speaker 2: So you had you know, you're someone who has had boyfriends,

1371
01:23:13,040 --> 01:23:16,320
Speaker 2: so all of your boyfriends were not Jewish, or just

1372
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:18,560
Speaker 2: certain ones were and certain ones weren't.

1373
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:24,040
Speaker 3: Well, David was my Jewish boyfriend. There was a pharmacist's son,

1374
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:27,840
Speaker 3: Albert Toadman, who liked me at high school, who I

1375
01:23:27,880 --> 01:23:30,840
Speaker 3: could have had a future with as a pharmacist wife.

1376
01:23:30,960 --> 01:23:35,960
Speaker 3: He was Jewish, Albert Toba. But I didn't have that

1377
01:23:36,040 --> 01:23:37,160
Speaker 3: many boyfriends.

1378
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:41,240
Speaker 2: I'm just talking. I'm not quantifying. It's just you referenced

1379
01:23:41,320 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 2: certain people. But didn't you get the message from the

1380
01:23:44,400 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 2: moment you grew up the how to marry a Jewish boy?

1381
01:23:47,160 --> 01:23:50,719
Speaker 3: Oh? Sure, well, you're not supposed to go outside the tribe.

1382
01:23:52,360 --> 01:23:54,639
Speaker 2: Okay, but let's put a bow on it. How does it?

1383
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:59,680
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, Mitch is very who was an

1384
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:04,400
Speaker 3: odd choice for me off the you know, just off

1385
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:08,800
Speaker 3: from left field, you know, a Catholic working you know,

1386
01:24:08,880 --> 01:24:13,840
Speaker 3: the father was a factory worker. But with whole backstory.

1387
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:21,360
Speaker 3: But you know what was I going to say? Just oh,

1388
01:24:21,520 --> 01:24:25,519
Speaker 3: I know, and it's just a stupid story. My mother

1389
01:24:25,600 --> 01:24:29,120
Speaker 3: and I was telling you before about how we were

1390
01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:31,479
Speaker 3: all in like the ponds in their game and this

1391
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 3: kind of race to succeed. My mother was walking in

1392
01:24:34,479 --> 01:24:38,479
Speaker 3: Providence down to Wayland Square and she ran into the

1393
01:24:38,800 --> 01:24:44,240
Speaker 3: woman who said, and this was like in the nineties,

1394
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 3: maybe it was in the thousands, actually in the early

1395
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:51,759
Speaker 3: two thousands, and Robin never married, did she? The woman said,

1396
01:24:52,439 --> 01:24:55,040
Speaker 3: And my mother said, well, actually she just got married

1397
01:24:55,120 --> 01:25:01,280
Speaker 3: last week, because I'm married. I married Mitch much much later,

1398
01:25:01,439 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 3: you know, I married I knew I met him in

1399
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:08,160
Speaker 3: seventy seven or seventy six, I think maybe seventy six,

1400
01:25:08,760 --> 01:25:13,240
Speaker 3: and we married in two thousand and two or three.

1401
01:25:13,560 --> 01:25:15,080
Speaker 2: Okay, there's a lot of stuff going there, but we

1402
01:25:15,160 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 2: got a time. Sorry, we'll get back to it. But

1403
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:21,599
Speaker 2: how does it end with Yan and rolling stone.

1404
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:26,200
Speaker 3: Oh, well, he was pissed off. You know. I didn't

1405
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:29,400
Speaker 3: whack up much expenses, but there were some expenses, but

1406
01:25:29,439 --> 01:25:33,280
Speaker 3: nothing like one Hunter was or anything like that. But

1407
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:41,320
Speaker 3: he wanted the piece. He wanted a piece. And we

1408
01:25:41,320 --> 01:25:44,720
Speaker 3: were in Israel. Jan was there with Max Polewski, who

1409
01:25:44,800 --> 01:25:48,000
Speaker 3: was dedicating a wing of the museum to his parents.

1410
01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:52,360
Speaker 3: Max was one of the people who funded the magazine

1411
01:25:52,400 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 3: at some point, wealthy and made money in computers early on.

1412
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:02,600
Speaker 3: And we were at this nightclub. I slip with you

1413
01:26:02,640 --> 01:26:03,880
Speaker 3: on too, you know, so.

1414
01:26:05,439 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 2: But so.

1415
01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:10,080
Speaker 3: Or at this nightclub we went outside for a smoke

1416
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:13,000
Speaker 3: and he said, are you going to give me the

1417
01:26:13,080 --> 01:26:16,320
Speaker 3: piece on the Kennedy's And I said, no, I guess not.

1418
01:26:16,760 --> 01:26:19,960
Speaker 3: I guess I'm not going to, you know. And he said, well,

1419
01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:23,120
Speaker 3: I'm going to have to take you off the masthead And

1420
01:26:23,200 --> 01:26:26,519
Speaker 3: I said, okay, I mean I was ready to move on.

1421
01:26:26,760 --> 01:26:29,360
Speaker 3: You know, that's how I move on. I've noticed that

1422
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:32,639
Speaker 3: pattern in my life. I don't I usually get fired.

1423
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:36,639
Speaker 3: I've been fired most time, you know, like three or four,

1424
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:39,640
Speaker 3: three times that I can remember at the moment I

1425
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:40,200
Speaker 3: get fired.

1426
01:26:40,240 --> 01:26:43,080
Speaker 2: Okay, So then you go to the Iowa Writers'.

1427
01:26:42,600 --> 01:26:46,479
Speaker 3: Workshop, well, I devolved a little, you know, I wrote

1428
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:49,080
Speaker 3: for different magazines. I hung around Berkeley for a couple

1429
01:26:49,160 --> 01:26:51,280
Speaker 3: of years after that, and I wrote an article for

1430
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:54,400
Speaker 3: Rolling Stone after that. He you know, he would let

1431
01:26:54,479 --> 01:26:56,120
Speaker 3: me write for them. He just took me off the

1432
01:26:56,160 --> 01:26:59,280
Speaker 3: mast head. It was like the sergeant losing his stripes

1433
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:01,280
Speaker 3: or something. But I wrote, you know, a piece on

1434
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:07,720
Speaker 3: nitrous oxide that I just loved doing, and some other things.

1435
01:27:07,760 --> 01:27:09,960
Speaker 3: And I wrote for other magazines too, you know, and

1436
01:27:10,040 --> 01:27:12,800
Speaker 3: all that. But my personal life, you know, I was

1437
01:27:12,880 --> 01:27:17,960
Speaker 3: alone in the world. David had married, and David felt

1438
01:27:17,960 --> 01:27:25,000
Speaker 3: in my married lover, you know, that ended, and so

1439
01:27:25,080 --> 01:27:27,479
Speaker 3: I went to Ioway. It sounded cushy, you know, and

1440
01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:30,599
Speaker 3: it was also where I felt safe last. I felt

1441
01:27:30,600 --> 01:27:33,120
Speaker 3: good in college in a way work wise, do you

1442
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:35,360
Speaker 3: know what I mean. It's a you know, just to

1443
01:27:35,400 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 3: go and read books. It's a good thing to do.

1444
01:27:38,040 --> 01:27:41,240
Speaker 3: So I started my life again. And when I met Mitch,

1445
01:27:41,439 --> 01:27:44,000
Speaker 3: I was his teacher. He was just out of the

1446
01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 3: Vietnam War, and you know, he didn't go to the war,

1447
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:49,720
Speaker 3: but he was in the army and the gi Bill

1448
01:27:49,760 --> 01:27:52,680
Speaker 3: and he came to my class and that's how I

1449
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:55,080
Speaker 3: met him. In nineteen I think seventy six.

1450
01:27:56,240 --> 01:28:01,120
Speaker 2: Okay, But going to the Iowa Writer's Workshop good or bad?

1451
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:09,120
Speaker 3: Oh? Good? Because because because I could start my life

1452
01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:16,439
Speaker 3: there again. I could start my life there again. That's

1453
01:28:16,439 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 3: all I mean. It was just a wonderful place to be.

1454
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:24,880
Speaker 3: And you know, you know that there once was an

1455
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:29,080
Speaker 3: ugly duckling with feathers all something in brown blah blah blah,

1456
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:33,080
Speaker 3: and it's a swan. You know. I loved that movie.

1457
01:28:33,240 --> 01:28:37,639
Speaker 3: And I loved being around writers because then I did belong.

1458
01:28:37,880 --> 01:28:38,000
Speaker 2: You know.

1459
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:40,960
Speaker 3: It wasn't like being at Pembroke, where I didn't belong

1460
01:28:41,000 --> 01:28:44,839
Speaker 3: with all those blonde girls. At Iowa, everyone was fucked

1461
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:48,519
Speaker 3: up or everyone was a writer. Everyone wanted to be

1462
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:52,520
Speaker 3: a writer, so there was a commonality and a basis

1463
01:28:52,560 --> 01:28:57,400
Speaker 3: for conversation and hanging out and having you know, deep,

1464
01:28:57,800 --> 01:28:59,559
Speaker 3: deep kind of fun.

1465
01:29:00,760 --> 01:29:07,080
Speaker 2: You know, did you see The Girls arc about Can

1466
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:09,719
Speaker 2: I guess the character's name was going to the Iowa

1467
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:10,719
Speaker 2: Writer's Workshop?

1468
01:29:13,200 --> 01:29:16,559
Speaker 3: Oh? In The Girls? I guess, so yeah, I don't

1469
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:17,479
Speaker 3: know if I don't remember.

1470
01:29:17,560 --> 01:29:22,280
Speaker 2: I mean, you go to the Iowa Writer's Workshop. It

1471
01:29:22,400 --> 01:29:25,400
Speaker 2: is probably the most difficult writing program to get into.

1472
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:29,160
Speaker 2: And there's a lot of the tearing a part of

1473
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:32,479
Speaker 2: one's writing, and you end up with a certain style

1474
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:36,000
Speaker 2: in many cases, which is not my favorite, where it's

1475
01:29:36,040 --> 01:29:39,360
Speaker 2: all about rewriting in the sense become very dense as

1476
01:29:39,400 --> 01:29:42,240
Speaker 2: to the paragraph. You know, you'd already had a history writing.

1477
01:29:42,840 --> 01:29:47,320
Speaker 2: Did you feel any constriction, feeling like you were shoehorned

1478
01:29:47,360 --> 01:29:49,240
Speaker 2: into a style you may not have liked?

1479
01:29:49,760 --> 01:29:55,200
Speaker 3: No, not at all. No I I no I.

1480
01:29:55,320 --> 01:29:55,519
Speaker 2: You know.

1481
01:29:58,120 --> 01:30:01,320
Speaker 3: John Hawks was my teacher, and he actually had to

1482
01:30:01,360 --> 01:30:04,800
Speaker 3: pull a string to get me into Iowa because Alan

1483
01:30:04,840 --> 01:30:09,040
Speaker 3: Ganis thought my writing was thin. I heard later, But

1484
01:30:09,479 --> 01:30:11,799
Speaker 3: you know I rose there too. I became a teaching

1485
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:18,599
Speaker 3: writing fellow. No. I wrote very conventional short stories, and

1486
01:30:18,640 --> 01:30:23,759
Speaker 3: I wrote just enough to get my MFA. I wasn't

1487
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:25,800
Speaker 3: going to be a writer. I wasn't going to be

1488
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:30,080
Speaker 3: that kind of writer. No, But you know, and there

1489
01:30:30,080 --> 01:30:34,040
Speaker 3: were teachers who were much more avant garde, like Riiseland Drexler,

1490
01:30:34,320 --> 01:30:38,360
Speaker 3: and they made fun of more conventional things. Not my stuff,

1491
01:30:38,400 --> 01:30:43,080
Speaker 3: but this guy, John Folsey's stuff. He wrote a conventional

1492
01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 3: short story, which was the only thing. And now they

1493
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:49,960
Speaker 3: published constantly in The New Yorker and everywhere else in books.

1494
01:30:50,280 --> 01:30:52,519
Speaker 3: But then to get something in the New York was huge,

1495
01:30:52,560 --> 01:30:55,479
Speaker 3: and John Falsey got something in the New Yorker and

1496
01:30:55,520 --> 01:30:58,080
Speaker 3: that's what brought him out to Hollywood. And he's the

1497
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:01,519
Speaker 3: one who hired me in television years later. So I

1498
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:04,800
Speaker 3: defended his short story in class against that kind of

1499
01:31:04,840 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 3: intrusion because I thought it was a really good short story.

1500
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:11,320
Speaker 3: It wasn't really good short story, good enough to get

1501
01:31:11,360 --> 01:31:14,679
Speaker 3: into New Yorker and good enough to get him a

1502
01:31:14,800 --> 01:31:17,759
Speaker 3: life in the Hollywood, you know, career.

1503
01:31:25,120 --> 01:31:29,519
Speaker 2: So you ultimately leave Iowa, you come to la and

1504
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 2: once again you're doing the equivalent of like minimum wage jobs.

1505
01:31:34,160 --> 01:31:37,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, what else was going to do? I didn't have

1506
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:40,120
Speaker 3: any money. I went with Mitch again with a man.

1507
01:31:40,240 --> 01:31:48,160
Speaker 3: Didn't want to go by myself, you know, And yeah

1508
01:31:48,240 --> 01:31:50,160
Speaker 3: we got we didn't have any money. We had thirteen

1509
01:31:50,240 --> 01:31:53,160
Speaker 3: hundred dollars, I said, saved my money. I worked in

1510
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:57,759
Speaker 3: a hospital in Iowa. I mean, even after Rolling Stone,

1511
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:01,840
Speaker 3: I was waitressing mid you know, graveyard shift at the

1512
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:08,559
Speaker 3: Copper Penny on University Avenue. But I didn't mind. I

1513
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:09,200
Speaker 3: didn't mind.

1514
01:32:09,479 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, men, you know, if you listen to

1515
01:32:12,120 --> 01:32:15,840
Speaker 2: Deborah tan And, who wrote a definitive book about all this.

1516
01:32:16,120 --> 01:32:18,960
Speaker 2: You know, you just don't understand. Men tend to be

1517
01:32:19,000 --> 01:32:22,519
Speaker 2: more linear ascensions. So if a man has a big

1518
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:24,799
Speaker 2: job and then, as you know, goes to a minimum

1519
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:28,040
Speaker 2: wage job, their ego is crushed. But that was not

1520
01:32:28,120 --> 01:32:28,960
Speaker 2: your experience.

1521
01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:33,720
Speaker 3: No, because women aren't you know, especially my generation, we

1522
01:32:33,720 --> 01:32:38,599
Speaker 3: weren't expected. Nothing was expected of us, nothing to shut up,

1523
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,240
Speaker 3: you know. But men were trained to They had to

1524
01:32:41,320 --> 01:32:43,400
Speaker 3: have the job and they had to support the family.

1525
01:32:43,880 --> 01:32:46,639
Speaker 3: And that's what a man did. So sure, you can't

1526
01:32:46,800 --> 01:32:50,439
Speaker 3: be fucking around. You got to go get a career.

1527
01:32:52,240 --> 01:32:56,360
Speaker 2: Okay, how do you ultimately get a job in television?

1528
01:32:58,000 --> 01:33:01,960
Speaker 3: Well, there were people that really sue it directly and

1529
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:05,360
Speaker 3: this is their passion, and they write tempt they write

1530
01:33:05,400 --> 01:33:08,559
Speaker 3: spec scripts, and they go after it and they trust,

1531
01:33:08,840 --> 01:33:11,360
Speaker 3: you know, they work, and they get a job working

1532
01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:14,120
Speaker 3: on a show as a secretary or something like that,

1533
01:33:14,280 --> 01:33:17,200
Speaker 3: an assistant, and they worked their way. I just fell

1534
01:33:17,240 --> 01:33:20,040
Speaker 3: into it the same way I fell into Rolling Stone.

1535
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:24,720
Speaker 3: John Folsey from Iowa had just created a show. I

1536
01:33:24,760 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 3: was writing. I was made this friend in la I

1537
01:33:29,040 --> 01:33:32,320
Speaker 3: was writing. You know, I had a job as a

1538
01:33:32,439 --> 01:33:35,640
Speaker 3: I finally got a job working for Harold Hayes, the

1539
01:33:35,720 --> 01:33:42,200
Speaker 3: great Esquire editor, a brilliant, wonderful, fantastic man, and he

1540
01:33:42,320 --> 01:33:44,680
Speaker 3: gave me. He took me in. You know, he liked

1541
01:33:44,680 --> 01:33:47,280
Speaker 3: something I wrote. I wrote him something as a kind

1542
01:33:47,320 --> 01:33:49,439
Speaker 3: of calling card, and they put it in the magazine

1543
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:51,920
Speaker 3: and he hired me. It gave me a column. So

1544
01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:54,680
Speaker 3: I was working there as an editor at California Magazine

1545
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:57,760
Speaker 3: and my friend Ruth Reischel took me in and she

1546
01:33:57,920 --> 01:34:01,120
Speaker 3: was the restaurant reviewer at the La Times, and she

1547
01:34:03,160 --> 01:34:05,280
Speaker 3: knew that I was a good writer because a friend

1548
01:34:05,280 --> 01:34:08,280
Speaker 3: of mine told her that, and she hired me to

1549
01:34:08,280 --> 01:34:11,720
Speaker 3: be a second string restaurant reviewer. So John Folsey, that

1550
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:14,000
Speaker 3: I had known at Iowa, this is like seven or

1551
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 3: eight years after Mitch and I went to La he

1552
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:24,799
Speaker 3: read one of my restaurant reviews told his partner in writing,

1553
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:29,000
Speaker 3: Joshua Brand, she'd be good to write for our show.

1554
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:31,479
Speaker 3: She's a really good writer because it was a show

1555
01:34:32,200 --> 01:34:34,960
Speaker 3: that was well, it was a show about a family

1556
01:34:35,400 --> 01:34:40,400
Speaker 3: who was that kind of conventional family story writing that

1557
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:44,639
Speaker 3: I like to do. And so so it was because

1558
01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:47,559
Speaker 3: of that restaurant review that he brought me in and

1559
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 3: had josh meet me and They gave me a chance

1560
01:34:49,880 --> 01:34:52,040
Speaker 3: to write episode one of a show called Year in

1561
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:56,320
Speaker 3: the Life with Richard Kylie and Sarah Jessica Parker at

1562
01:34:56,360 --> 01:35:00,479
Speaker 3: sixty years old, and you know, even Mary's sat was

1563
01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 3: in the she was in the miniseries that won an Emmy.

1564
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:06,639
Speaker 3: It was really, you know, the beginning of a kind

1565
01:35:06,680 --> 01:35:10,880
Speaker 3: of quality television. And so I got to I got

1566
01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:14,000
Speaker 3: to write the first episode of when it went to series,

1567
01:35:15,600 --> 01:35:20,160
Speaker 3: and it was terrible, and uh, John said, I know

1568
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:25,240
Speaker 3: to Josh, I know she can do it. And they

1569
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:29,599
Speaker 3: had me in and they said, we want updike. That's

1570
01:35:29,600 --> 01:35:32,120
Speaker 3: what we want the tone. And because I had a

1571
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:34,960
Speaker 3: literature background, I knew what updyke was. Do you know

1572
01:35:35,000 --> 01:35:37,280
Speaker 3: what I mean? I knew, I understand what they were

1573
01:35:37,320 --> 01:35:40,559
Speaker 3: asking of me. And so I was able to deliver

1574
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:44,160
Speaker 3: an updike in with with that kind of humor. I

1575
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:47,840
Speaker 3: gave them some dyke and ship and it was episode

1576
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:51,000
Speaker 3: one a Year in the Life. And then I worked

1577
01:35:51,000 --> 01:35:55,679
Speaker 3: from then on. I went from you know Josh and John.

1578
01:35:55,960 --> 01:35:56,280
Speaker 2: Josh.

1579
01:35:56,439 --> 01:35:59,800
Speaker 3: John particularly was like, do you believe how much money?

1580
01:35:59,840 --> 01:36:02,519
Speaker 3: Or he was very I mean, I had a nice

1581
01:36:02,600 --> 01:36:05,639
Speaker 3: life without the money, you know, I had a nice

1582
01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:07,799
Speaker 3: little apartment and I had split up at that point

1583
01:36:07,840 --> 01:36:10,600
Speaker 3: for a while, but for years, but I had a

1584
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:14,599
Speaker 3: nice little apartment. I loved my job with Harold Hayes,

1585
01:36:14,920 --> 01:36:19,200
Speaker 3: although he died and so then it became problematic. But

1586
01:36:20,479 --> 01:36:23,920
Speaker 3: the magazine became an unhappy place to be, or maybe

1587
01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:29,080
Speaker 3: he was fired before he died. But but I was

1588
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:31,559
Speaker 3: happy in my life, you know, at forty thousand dollars

1589
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:33,960
Speaker 3: a year. But going from that to the kind of

1590
01:36:34,000 --> 01:36:37,160
Speaker 3: television money was a big, you know, big leap. I

1591
01:36:37,240 --> 01:36:41,639
Speaker 3: was forty forty years old by that, you know, and

1592
01:36:41,720 --> 01:36:46,920
Speaker 3: so you know, that was the beginning of the life

1593
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:47,800
Speaker 3: that I have now.

1594
01:36:49,240 --> 01:36:50,920
Speaker 2: So where did it go? From that show?

1595
01:36:53,760 --> 01:36:55,559
Speaker 3: I was a year in the life was canceled after

1596
01:36:55,600 --> 01:36:59,280
Speaker 3: a year because the Networks was so stupid. They had

1597
01:36:59,600 --> 01:37:01,360
Speaker 3: they had a that was a winner, but it only

1598
01:37:01,439 --> 01:37:08,560
Speaker 3: lasted a year to replace it. I went from there to, oh,

1599
01:37:08,920 --> 01:37:16,400
Speaker 3: David Chase had a show called Almost Grown about music,

1600
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:24,479
Speaker 3: and so I went and interviewed with David. And it

1601
01:37:24,520 --> 01:37:27,800
Speaker 3: was during the strike, and we had lunch and a

1602
01:37:27,920 --> 01:37:30,600
Speaker 3: Ventura Boulevard, you know, I was at this restaurant of

1603
01:37:30,680 --> 01:37:35,880
Speaker 3: Ventura Boulevard and David walks in and I think, oh fuck,

1604
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:38,639
Speaker 3: he's like the most miserable looking person I've ever seen

1605
01:37:38,680 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 3: in my life, just so dour and oh Jesus. And

1606
01:37:42,120 --> 01:37:44,320
Speaker 3: I'm sitting there and there's no place to run, and

1607
01:37:44,360 --> 01:37:47,160
Speaker 3: he comes and he sits with me, and within ten

1608
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:49,519
Speaker 3: minutes we were laughing so hard we had tears streaming

1609
01:37:49,560 --> 01:37:53,240
Speaker 3: down our cheeks. He was just like, so funny and

1610
01:37:53,360 --> 01:37:56,320
Speaker 3: so smart. It's just wonderful. So I went to work

1611
01:37:56,360 --> 01:38:00,680
Speaker 3: for him, and that show was canceled after fourteen episodes,

1612
01:38:00,680 --> 01:38:02,639
Speaker 3: but god, it was fun. You know, It's with Tim

1613
01:38:02,760 --> 01:38:06,880
Speaker 3: Daly and Eve Gordon, and it had musical cues. David

1614
01:38:06,960 --> 01:38:13,439
Speaker 3: was really into music. I mean, have you talked to

1615
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:16,360
Speaker 3: him at all, He's not so into music. Music is

1616
01:38:16,400 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 3: such a big part of what he does all of

1617
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:22,880
Speaker 3: the show, well sopranos, especially practical music. He likes to

1618
01:38:22,880 --> 01:38:26,600
Speaker 3: put practical music. It isn't like scores. So this was

1619
01:38:26,600 --> 01:38:30,120
Speaker 3: a show where musical cues brought this couple who was

1620
01:38:30,400 --> 01:38:33,840
Speaker 3: divorcing back to certain periods in their lives, and so

1621
01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:37,320
Speaker 3: you would go back into that period in the film,

1622
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:41,720
Speaker 3: you know, flashbacks cued by music that was playing on

1623
01:38:41,720 --> 01:38:45,360
Speaker 3: the radio or wherever the music was playing. The character

1624
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:49,599
Speaker 3: would start thinking about that time, and so you would

1625
01:38:49,640 --> 01:38:53,720
Speaker 3: have a whole plot at that time when they were

1626
01:38:53,760 --> 01:38:56,760
Speaker 3: happy maybe or stuff that happened back then with Eve

1627
01:38:56,800 --> 01:38:59,840
Speaker 3: and I can't remember the character's names, but Tim, Daly

1628
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:03,519
Speaker 3: and Gordon, and then you would be back at the present,

1629
01:39:03,960 --> 01:39:06,640
Speaker 3: and that experience of going back with somehow inform on

1630
01:39:06,680 --> 01:39:09,240
Speaker 3: the present. It was a really good show. It's such

1631
01:39:09,240 --> 01:39:12,400
Speaker 3: a wonderful experience to work with him, to work with

1632
01:39:12,479 --> 01:39:16,679
Speaker 3: David and you know, and in his interviews he does

1633
01:39:16,720 --> 01:39:18,760
Speaker 3: say that it was a conversation we had that had

1634
01:39:18,760 --> 01:39:23,000
Speaker 3: a lot to do with his writing the Sopranos when

1635
01:39:23,080 --> 01:39:26,200
Speaker 3: we when I worked on that show, we became friends.

1636
01:39:27,080 --> 01:39:30,160
Speaker 2: Be a specific conversation, Yeah.

1637
01:39:30,400 --> 01:39:34,600
Speaker 3: You know, his mother had come to visit him and

1638
01:39:35,280 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 3: he and also in interviews he also says that his

1639
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:40,559
Speaker 3: wife has always told him he should write about his mother.

1640
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:45,000
Speaker 3: So but he told them just recently, they're doing a documentary.

1641
01:39:45,040 --> 01:39:48,519
Speaker 3: Alex Gibney's doing a documentary for HBO, and he talked

1642
01:39:48,520 --> 01:39:52,200
Speaker 3: to me and Mitch and he told me that David

1643
01:39:52,240 --> 01:39:54,880
Speaker 3: had said that he referred to that conversation that we

1644
01:39:54,920 --> 01:39:57,760
Speaker 3: had in the office. We had this great office and

1645
01:39:57,800 --> 01:40:00,479
Speaker 3: a lot at universal, just me and this other guy

1646
01:40:00,520 --> 01:40:03,280
Speaker 3: and David would come over and hang out and I

1647
01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:07,080
Speaker 3: and his mother. He was complaining about his mother and

1648
01:40:07,120 --> 01:40:08,960
Speaker 3: I said, it's just so amazing to me. I see

1649
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 3: you take on these powerful men, these suits over in

1650
01:40:12,760 --> 01:40:15,559
Speaker 3: the Black Tower over there, and you just reduce them

1651
01:40:15,600 --> 01:40:19,440
Speaker 3: to you know, Gerbils and your mother. It just reduces

1652
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:22,720
Speaker 3: you to to like a little Gerbil. And it's just

1653
01:40:22,880 --> 01:40:26,760
Speaker 3: it's such a dichotomy to me, just like it's you know.

1654
01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:30,040
Speaker 3: And so that is a germ of what Tony Soprano is.

1655
01:40:30,040 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 3: He had this gangster thing in the drawer, but it

1656
01:40:34,520 --> 01:40:38,800
Speaker 3: was about a powerful man who had mother issues. I suppose,

1657
01:40:39,040 --> 01:40:41,960
Speaker 3: you know, not mother issues so much just as a

1658
01:40:42,000 --> 01:40:45,080
Speaker 3: looney mother, you know, difficult mother.

1659
01:40:45,720 --> 01:40:49,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so that show only last year? Then what next?

1660
01:40:49,520 --> 01:40:53,280
Speaker 3: Well then, because in their wisdom, CBS gave me my

1661
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:57,080
Speaker 3: own show. Here I am three years in the business,

1662
01:40:57,760 --> 01:41:00,599
Speaker 3: so they paired me with and my agent was Elliot Webb.

1663
01:41:00,760 --> 01:41:03,760
Speaker 3: You know who's the agent of Gary Trudeau. He was

1664
01:41:03,880 --> 01:41:07,960
Speaker 3: like Sid Kibbets in the cartoon script. That's that's was Elliott.

1665
01:41:08,400 --> 01:41:13,040
Speaker 3: He's still around somewhere, but Elliott. But I think, but

1666
01:41:13,920 --> 01:41:16,880
Speaker 3: they paired me with Doug Kramer, who had you know,

1667
01:41:16,920 --> 01:41:20,400
Speaker 3: he and Aaron Spelling did the Love Boat, and I'm like,

1668
01:41:20,479 --> 01:41:22,400
Speaker 3: what am I doing with this guy? This is wrong,

1669
01:41:22,439 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 3: this is bad. He's like, come on, it's your own show.

1670
01:41:25,040 --> 01:41:28,280
Speaker 3: It's six in the summertime, it's a great opportunity, blah

1671
01:41:28,280 --> 01:41:31,440
Speaker 3: blah blah. And it was just it was a disaster.

1672
01:41:32,840 --> 01:41:36,760
Speaker 3: You know, Doug Kramer had a much different sensibility than

1673
01:41:36,800 --> 01:41:40,040
Speaker 3: I did, and it just wasn't going to work. We did,

1674
01:41:40,080 --> 01:41:42,680
Speaker 3: We made six of these things. I think it was

1675
01:41:42,720 --> 01:41:46,240
Speaker 3: a short order like that for the summer and it

1676
01:41:46,439 --> 01:41:49,639
Speaker 3: just was a disaster for various reasons.

1677
01:41:50,200 --> 01:41:52,080
Speaker 2: Did it every hear? Yeah?

1678
01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:56,320
Speaker 3: I did. My mother was like, what is this? What

1679
01:41:56,560 --> 01:41:59,280
Speaker 3: happened here? This isn't You're not here anywhere in This

1680
01:42:00,120 --> 01:42:03,280
Speaker 3: was awful, But there was one It just didn't work.

1681
01:42:03,320 --> 01:42:09,200
Speaker 3: And so the good news was that at the same time,

1682
01:42:09,320 --> 01:42:13,320
Speaker 3: Josh and John Folsey and Brand had created Northern Exposure

1683
01:42:13,360 --> 01:42:16,920
Speaker 3: as a summer show for CBS another and that show

1684
01:42:17,040 --> 01:42:20,360
Speaker 3: was going and because my show failed, I got to

1685
01:42:20,439 --> 01:42:23,559
Speaker 3: go on that show with them to see what I mean,

1686
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:27,120
Speaker 3: you know, I had the six in the Summer that

1687
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:30,840
Speaker 3: was gone. They had a fall an order for you know,

1688
01:42:30,880 --> 01:42:33,479
Speaker 3: the coming season, and so they hired me to go

1689
01:42:33,560 --> 01:42:37,360
Speaker 3: on Northern Exposure and then I was there five years.

1690
01:42:37,400 --> 01:42:40,040
Speaker 3: I was there longer than Josh and John. You know.

1691
01:42:40,120 --> 01:42:42,559
Speaker 3: David Chase came on at one point when Josh and

1692
01:42:42,640 --> 01:42:45,280
Speaker 3: John went off to do commercials and movies and stuff.

1693
01:42:47,240 --> 01:42:49,880
Speaker 3: So that's really what happened to me. I mean, Northern

1694
01:42:49,920 --> 01:42:53,800
Speaker 3: Exposure was real. It was wonderful. And then I was

1695
01:42:53,840 --> 01:42:56,639
Speaker 3: having trouble at work and Mitch started we started seeing

1696
01:42:56,680 --> 01:42:59,479
Speaker 3: each other again, or really we started working together a

1697
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:04,000
Speaker 3: little bit. I was having trouble and Mitch, you know,

1698
01:43:04,160 --> 01:43:07,120
Speaker 3: was a really good writer, and I remembered that from

1699
01:43:07,120 --> 01:43:11,840
Speaker 3: my days. He was my student. But I needed ideas.

1700
01:43:11,960 --> 01:43:14,920
Speaker 3: I needed to come in with ideas, and Mitch had

1701
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:17,320
Speaker 3: three or I had two and I had one, but

1702
01:43:17,840 --> 01:43:19,599
Speaker 3: they all want Emmy's, do you know what I mean?

1703
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:22,280
Speaker 3: They were really good ideas. It kind of saved my ass.

1704
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:25,519
Speaker 3: At Northern Exposure. We started writing together, me and Mitch,

1705
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:28,840
Speaker 3: and then of course one thing led to another. So

1706
01:43:28,880 --> 01:43:30,560
Speaker 3: we did that for five years.

1707
01:43:31,040 --> 01:43:37,480
Speaker 2: Okay, that show, David Chase took over the lead character changed.

1708
01:43:37,960 --> 01:43:41,559
Speaker 2: You were there in both halves. Yeah, it was very

1709
01:43:41,600 --> 01:43:44,080
Speaker 2: different as if you were. What was it like working

1710
01:43:44,120 --> 01:43:45,160
Speaker 2: for the show David?

1711
01:43:45,160 --> 01:43:48,000
Speaker 3: Well, David hated the show. He had been in another

1712
01:43:48,080 --> 01:43:51,439
Speaker 3: Josh and John show called I'll Fly Away, you know,

1713
01:43:51,640 --> 01:43:57,400
Speaker 3: very earnest civil rights drama with Sam Waterston, and he

1714
01:43:57,479 --> 01:44:01,920
Speaker 3: thought that nor the exposure was just awful. What are

1715
01:44:01,960 --> 01:44:04,120
Speaker 3: you saying that the characters parcticularly come out of the

1716
01:44:04,200 --> 01:44:06,960
Speaker 3: TV said it lick your face? You know? How was

1717
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:11,439
Speaker 3: David's humor? But he came on the show anyway because

1718
01:44:11,439 --> 01:44:15,439
Speaker 3: it was his first really big payday. Frankly, I think

1719
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:19,200
Speaker 3: I think that's my sense of it, and I think

1720
01:44:19,240 --> 01:44:22,920
Speaker 3: that's true. But you know, it's not unusual either. So

1721
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:25,000
Speaker 3: it came on the show and that's what happened, and

1722
01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:28,200
Speaker 3: he wrecked as far as I was concerned. But I

1723
01:44:28,240 --> 01:44:30,920
Speaker 3: don't know. We did some fun stuff even in the

1724
01:44:31,400 --> 01:44:33,840
Speaker 3: last couple of years, so I didn't like it much.

1725
01:44:34,479 --> 01:44:36,559
Speaker 3: That's kind of what happened in the Sopranos too. It

1726
01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 3: kind of ran out for me. I didn't really like

1727
01:44:40,960 --> 01:44:41,639
Speaker 3: what it became.

1728
01:44:42,680 --> 01:44:44,680
Speaker 2: How did it change? And what didn't you like?

1729
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:49,879
Speaker 3: What the Sopranos are? Yeah, well, you know, when I started,

1730
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:53,040
Speaker 3: Mitch and I were the first people brought on after

1731
01:44:53,080 --> 01:44:58,519
Speaker 3: the pilot. You know, David call. We had been working

1732
01:44:58,560 --> 01:45:01,439
Speaker 3: with him. He didn't know whether the show was going

1733
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:03,280
Speaker 3: to go, and we had been working with him at

1734
01:45:03,280 --> 01:45:05,680
Speaker 3: his office, which was a garage of his house in

1735
01:45:05,720 --> 01:45:09,000
Speaker 3: Santa Monica, and developing some other shows and talking. We

1736
01:45:09,080 --> 01:45:14,479
Speaker 3: had read Sopranos. He had several drafts, one for the

1737
01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:16,479
Speaker 3: one for the networks, and one for you know, the

1738
01:45:16,520 --> 01:45:19,000
Speaker 3: not networks, and they were all they were all really

1739
01:45:19,000 --> 01:45:23,719
Speaker 3: good and really wonderful. And so David made the pilot

1740
01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:28,200
Speaker 3: for Sopranos, and and he aired the pilot. He paid

1741
01:45:28,240 --> 01:45:30,880
Speaker 3: for the you know, the show. I think it was

1742
01:45:30,920 --> 01:45:35,280
Speaker 3: on a Sony lot in Culver City, maybe, yeah, And

1743
01:45:35,320 --> 01:45:39,400
Speaker 3: so he you know, he had food and the lobby

1744
01:45:39,439 --> 01:45:42,120
Speaker 3: for you know, the Italian food, and every we all

1745
01:45:42,600 --> 01:45:45,360
Speaker 3: went to the show and it was the pilot was wonderful,

1746
01:45:45,479 --> 01:45:49,439
Speaker 3: it was great. Mitch and I were working at uh

1747
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:52,479
Speaker 3: Party of five, which was not a good match for us,

1748
01:45:53,120 --> 01:45:57,479
Speaker 3: and David called one night and asked me and Mitch,

1749
01:45:58,240 --> 01:46:00,439
Speaker 3: if the show went, if we'd come and work on it.

1750
01:46:01,400 --> 01:46:03,640
Speaker 3: Because he knew us from Northern Exposure. He knew our

1751
01:46:03,680 --> 01:46:06,000
Speaker 3: writing and work, and he knew me from his own show,

1752
01:46:06,600 --> 01:46:11,520
Speaker 3: and so nothing happened. This was I think in the summertime,

1753
01:46:12,040 --> 01:46:16,599
Speaker 3: and then in December, was right before Christmas vacation. We

1754
01:46:16,600 --> 01:46:19,840
Speaker 3: were at work and we were getting notes from the

1755
01:46:19,880 --> 01:46:23,840
Speaker 3: bosses at Party of Five, notes on a script that

1756
01:46:23,840 --> 01:46:27,280
Speaker 3: we had written, and the secretary, which was which it

1757
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:30,519
Speaker 3: was called an assistant, opened the door and said, there's

1758
01:46:30,560 --> 01:46:34,519
Speaker 3: a Tommy Soprano on the phone for you. That was

1759
01:46:34,840 --> 01:46:40,160
Speaker 3: Tony's name before the network made him change it, or

1760
01:46:40,160 --> 01:46:44,760
Speaker 3: maybe he anyway, he and the Amy and Chris, the

1761
01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:47,599
Speaker 3: bosses said you know somebody like that, and they knew

1762
01:46:47,600 --> 01:46:50,599
Speaker 3: from the name it was, and Mitch and I knew.

1763
01:46:50,640 --> 01:46:52,479
Speaker 3: At that point we were saved that we were going

1764
01:46:52,479 --> 01:46:53,840
Speaker 3: to get to go to New York and we're going

1765
01:46:53,880 --> 01:46:57,439
Speaker 3: to do this show. And they let us go from

1766
01:46:57,479 --> 01:47:01,120
Speaker 3: Party of Five because it was like we were going

1767
01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:03,920
Speaker 3: into nowhere. We took a half pay cut to go

1768
01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:06,880
Speaker 3: on the show. We did it for fun. We just

1769
01:47:06,920 --> 01:47:09,439
Speaker 3: did it for fun. We just loved it, and we

1770
01:47:09,479 --> 01:47:12,120
Speaker 3: went there. We made them. We wrote them all and

1771
01:47:12,320 --> 01:47:16,320
Speaker 3: filled them all and cast them all, and David edited

1772
01:47:16,320 --> 01:47:20,479
Speaker 3: them all and did the post before they aired. So

1773
01:47:20,520 --> 01:47:25,440
Speaker 3: we had this like pure experience of just this experience

1774
01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:31,240
Speaker 3: of doing something for fun. You know, it wasn't about

1775
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:34,160
Speaker 3: the money. It was just about the show, and everyone

1776
01:47:34,240 --> 01:47:36,880
Speaker 3: felt that way. The crew used to wait for the

1777
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:39,280
Speaker 3: scripts to come out to read the scripts. This is

1778
01:47:39,400 --> 01:47:44,080
Speaker 3: very unusual because they were so funny and so compelling

1779
01:47:44,200 --> 01:47:47,599
Speaker 3: and so interesting. Something was happening, but we didn't. So

1780
01:47:47,640 --> 01:47:49,760
Speaker 3: we get back and Elliott says to us, we get

1781
01:47:49,760 --> 01:47:51,680
Speaker 3: back to LA because this is all in New York

1782
01:47:51,720 --> 01:47:55,320
Speaker 3: and New Jersey. Elliott says, so, now you've had your

1783
01:47:55,320 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 3: little artistic experience, you have to have to get a

1784
01:47:58,560 --> 01:48:03,120
Speaker 3: real job. And so we did. We tried to get

1785
01:48:03,160 --> 01:48:08,200
Speaker 3: a job, you know, all these soulless, miserable interviews, and

1786
01:48:08,240 --> 01:48:10,759
Speaker 3: I don't think we took a job. I can't remember.

1787
01:48:10,760 --> 01:48:17,400
Speaker 3: But the the thing aired in a basement, a sub basement.

1788
01:48:17,600 --> 01:48:20,840
Speaker 3: There was our premiere in January, after the year that

1789
01:48:20,880 --> 01:48:24,559
Speaker 3: we spent making it. It was just really June to January.

1790
01:48:24,600 --> 01:48:30,760
Speaker 3: I guess it happens pretty fast television. In January, we

1791
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:33,479
Speaker 3: had the premiere in the sub basement of Tower Records

1792
01:48:33,520 --> 01:48:36,479
Speaker 3: and Times Square. But you know, because Stevie van Zant

1793
01:48:36,640 --> 01:48:39,400
Speaker 3: was there, Bruce Springsteen was there, so it had a

1794
01:48:39,439 --> 01:48:42,240
Speaker 3: little Jewish going on a little buzz. It was exciting

1795
01:48:42,880 --> 01:48:45,800
Speaker 3: to have a premier in New York and so we

1796
01:48:45,880 --> 01:48:49,880
Speaker 3: watch it with people and they're coming out. We're in

1797
01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:53,160
Speaker 3: the lobby, like you know, you see this about Broadway shows.

1798
01:48:53,520 --> 01:48:55,920
Speaker 3: The people that are coming out. We invited friends to this.

1799
01:48:56,080 --> 01:49:00,439
Speaker 3: We liked it so much, and they were beaming friends.

1800
01:49:01,520 --> 01:49:03,320
Speaker 3: Ruth is one of them, My friend that gave me

1801
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:05,519
Speaker 3: the job in LA She was then working in New

1802
01:49:05,600 --> 01:49:09,080
Speaker 3: York as the New York Times restaurant critic, editor of

1803
01:49:09,120 --> 01:49:12,639
Speaker 3: Gourmet or something, but she did all that. But anyway,

1804
01:49:12,640 --> 01:49:16,000
Speaker 3: they were beaming her and Michael and everyone was just like,

1805
01:49:17,520 --> 01:49:21,160
Speaker 3: loved this show, you know, and we knew from that moment.

1806
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:25,040
Speaker 3: You know, we had our after party and John's pizza

1807
01:49:25,120 --> 01:49:27,600
Speaker 3: around the corner. It was like freezy coal that we

1808
01:49:27,720 --> 01:49:30,639
Speaker 3: slept around the corner and had pizza. It was very

1809
01:49:30,960 --> 01:49:33,320
Speaker 3: it was very nothing, you know, it was just a

1810
01:49:33,360 --> 01:49:37,320
Speaker 3: little little camp of us. You know, it was really something.

1811
01:49:38,360 --> 01:49:40,679
Speaker 3: And then that was that after that, right.

1812
01:49:40,640 --> 01:49:46,200
Speaker 2: Okay, many series. The pilot is the first episode. What

1813
01:49:46,400 --> 01:49:48,840
Speaker 2: happened with the pilot of the Sopranos, Well.

1814
01:49:48,720 --> 01:49:50,799
Speaker 3: That was the pilot that everyone saw on the Cellar.

1815
01:49:52,160 --> 01:49:54,120
Speaker 3: No one had seen it at that point.

1816
01:49:54,360 --> 01:49:57,520
Speaker 2: Okay, so the pilot was the first episode.

1817
01:49:57,720 --> 01:50:00,240
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and then Liz and I came on the

1818
01:50:00,280 --> 01:50:04,040
Speaker 3: second episode and you know, stayed for six years.

1819
01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:08,200
Speaker 2: Okay, so at this point in time, Sex and the

1820
01:50:08,240 --> 01:50:11,360
Speaker 2: City had launched, but that had it really blew up

1821
01:50:11,400 --> 01:50:16,439
Speaker 2: after being after the Sopranos. Ultimately they'd had dream on

1822
01:50:17,320 --> 01:50:21,599
Speaker 2: new series on cable, premium cable. We're in not really

1823
01:50:21,600 --> 01:50:24,400
Speaker 2: a big deal. I remember getting an email from somebody saying,

1824
01:50:24,400 --> 01:50:28,560
Speaker 2: you got to watch this show, and this is it

1825
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:31,160
Speaker 2: A and R guy in the music business, you know.

1826
01:50:31,800 --> 01:50:35,240
Speaker 2: And I recorded it back in the VHS did when

1827
01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:38,400
Speaker 2: I watched it when I woke up on a Saturday

1828
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:41,240
Speaker 2: at like eleven o'clock, and as soon as it started

1829
01:50:41,240 --> 01:50:44,200
Speaker 2: off with the Alabama three track, It's like, wow, I'm

1830
01:50:44,280 --> 01:50:48,240
Speaker 2: hooked here, right And then, you know, the first year

1831
01:50:48,439 --> 01:50:50,840
Speaker 2: it was a big cult thing. You know, it grew

1832
01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:52,720
Speaker 2: over time, so everywhere you went said, don't go to

1833
01:50:52,760 --> 01:50:56,680
Speaker 2: the movies, watch the Sopranos. So what was the experience

1834
01:50:56,840 --> 01:50:59,320
Speaker 2: like from the inside once it aired.

1835
01:51:05,720 --> 01:51:08,160
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it started at night in the basement.

1836
01:51:09,160 --> 01:51:17,720
Speaker 3: You know, it was wonderful. What's happened the reviews were spectacular.

1837
01:51:17,800 --> 01:51:19,839
Speaker 3: The one guy down in Florida, of course, I remember

1838
01:51:19,880 --> 01:51:22,840
Speaker 3: that one. They didn't like it, but everyone else just

1839
01:51:22,880 --> 01:51:26,200
Speaker 3: went nuts, you know that they called it. You know,

1840
01:51:27,960 --> 01:51:34,840
Speaker 3: I can't I'm tired. I guess Ballzakian something compared it

1841
01:51:34,880 --> 01:51:39,600
Speaker 3: to Ballsack or some shit. But it was wonderful. It

1842
01:51:39,680 --> 01:51:42,920
Speaker 3: was just, you know, it was wonderful to love something

1843
01:51:43,000 --> 01:51:46,080
Speaker 3: so much and have it responded to that way. We

1844
01:51:46,160 --> 01:51:50,040
Speaker 3: were all having so much fun. And David said at dinner,

1845
01:51:50,080 --> 01:51:51,800
Speaker 3: you know, we were out of dinner before it air,

1846
01:51:51,840 --> 01:51:53,640
Speaker 3: and he said, if this doesn't work, that's it for me.

1847
01:51:53,680 --> 01:51:55,920
Speaker 3: I'm out of television. He hated television. He wanted to

1848
01:51:55,920 --> 01:52:01,679
Speaker 3: be a movie writer. So and we just we really

1849
01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:05,120
Speaker 3: didn't know what was going to happen. And then that happened.

1850
01:52:05,320 --> 01:52:09,720
Speaker 3: But I always say, if Colin Bine had happened or

1851
01:52:09,800 --> 01:52:13,000
Speaker 3: shootings and that show had come out after that, people

1852
01:52:13,000 --> 01:52:15,760
Speaker 3: would have been disgusted by the show. That it's so

1853
01:52:15,880 --> 01:52:18,599
Speaker 3: much the Veltin Shop and it's so much what's going

1854
01:52:18,680 --> 01:52:23,200
Speaker 3: on that people had that it came at a time

1855
01:52:23,280 --> 01:52:26,640
Speaker 3: when it could be loved. I do believe that, I

1856
01:52:26,680 --> 01:52:29,200
Speaker 3: do believe that if there had been that kind of

1857
01:52:29,240 --> 01:52:34,479
Speaker 3: gun violence, you know, in January instead of April. It

1858
01:52:34,520 --> 01:52:37,160
Speaker 3: would have been a much different experience for people.

1859
01:52:37,680 --> 01:52:40,880
Speaker 2: Now you and Mitch are listed as executive producers. Is

1860
01:52:40,880 --> 01:52:43,200
Speaker 2: that from episode one?

1861
01:52:43,560 --> 01:52:48,320
Speaker 3: No, we started as I guess co executive producers. Yeah,

1862
01:52:48,560 --> 01:52:52,320
Speaker 3: and then we we were in a situation where we

1863
01:52:52,360 --> 01:52:57,240
Speaker 3: had to renew our contract I think every year, so

1864
01:52:58,400 --> 01:53:02,639
Speaker 3: you know, part of that negotiat would be beside the money,

1865
01:53:02,680 --> 01:53:07,479
Speaker 3: the title, you know, And then the negotiation wasn't going

1866
01:53:07,479 --> 01:53:10,200
Speaker 3: well I guess in the third year, maybe the second year,

1867
01:53:10,280 --> 01:53:13,720
Speaker 3: and we got a great offer NBC for a lot

1868
01:53:13,760 --> 01:53:18,880
Speaker 3: of money, and so HBO had to match that price

1869
01:53:18,960 --> 01:53:24,520
Speaker 3: and they did. You know, It's like a miracle. So

1870
01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:26,720
Speaker 3: so it was like that, you know, it was just

1871
01:53:26,840 --> 01:53:28,920
Speaker 3: was lucky and great. But mostly I have to tell

1872
01:53:28,960 --> 01:53:31,160
Speaker 3: you that it was so much fun in that writing room.

1873
01:53:31,200 --> 01:53:33,160
Speaker 3: It was fun when we read around the table, when

1874
01:53:33,200 --> 01:53:36,240
Speaker 3: the actors would come in for every episode and sit

1875
01:53:36,280 --> 01:53:39,640
Speaker 3: around the table. And the first episode, I guess it

1876
01:53:39,680 --> 01:53:43,960
Speaker 3: was the second episode, you know, after the pilot, Lorraine

1877
01:53:44,000 --> 01:53:47,960
Speaker 3: brack I said, look at us, We're all Italians. Because

1878
01:53:47,960 --> 01:53:50,960
Speaker 3: everybody was Italian except for Nancy Marshawan and me and

1879
01:53:51,040 --> 01:53:55,080
Speaker 3: Mitch you know, everyone was Italian. It was just it

1880
01:53:55,120 --> 01:53:56,160
Speaker 3: was great fun.

1881
01:53:57,120 --> 01:54:01,519
Speaker 2: Okay, if David Chase came up with the idea, he

1882
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:06,800
Speaker 2: does the pilot, he brings you on board. Who comes

1883
01:54:06,880 --> 01:54:10,720
Speaker 2: up with the ideas for every episode? How do you

1884
01:54:10,800 --> 01:54:13,680
Speaker 2: decide who's going to write it? How involved are you

1885
01:54:13,800 --> 01:54:17,640
Speaker 2: in the overall direction of the show or are you

1886
01:54:17,800 --> 01:54:19,360
Speaker 2: just writing certain episodes.

1887
01:54:20,479 --> 01:54:23,920
Speaker 3: Well, it began with a bunch of There was me

1888
01:54:24,000 --> 01:54:28,040
Speaker 3: and Mitch and a bunch of people in la We met, well,

1889
01:54:28,200 --> 01:54:31,960
Speaker 3: Mitch and David and I met in a restaurant in

1890
01:54:32,000 --> 01:54:35,040
Speaker 3: the beginning before the offices opened up that we could

1891
01:54:35,080 --> 01:54:38,360
Speaker 3: all meet and and David was hiring writers, and he

1892
01:54:38,480 --> 01:54:42,400
Speaker 3: hired you know, television writers and people who were around

1893
01:54:42,560 --> 01:54:45,520
Speaker 3: to be at that table to see who could you know,

1894
01:54:45,560 --> 01:54:47,760
Speaker 3: who could work in the room the whole thing. It

1895
01:54:47,840 --> 01:54:54,920
Speaker 3: was in the editing suite of Oliver Stone's office in

1896
01:54:54,960 --> 01:54:57,560
Speaker 3: Santa Monica. I forget he had just an Nixon or something.

1897
01:54:58,240 --> 01:55:00,760
Speaker 3: And so we're back there and there's a lot of

1898
01:55:00,800 --> 01:55:03,920
Speaker 3: us around the table. Frank runs Zuli, who Mitch calls

1899
01:55:04,000 --> 01:55:06,920
Speaker 3: the mariner of the show because Frank had been you know,

1900
01:55:07,480 --> 01:55:10,560
Speaker 3: I think is it Whitey Bulger was he the Boston guy.

1901
01:55:10,760 --> 01:55:14,560
Speaker 3: But you know, Frank had been Spider, he had been

1902
01:55:14,640 --> 01:55:17,800
Speaker 3: that person in the Social Club in Boston, so he

1903
01:55:17,880 --> 01:55:22,200
Speaker 3: knew this world. And he's a crazy, fantastic writer. So

1904
01:55:22,280 --> 01:55:25,480
Speaker 3: he was around the table and there were a bunch

1905
01:55:25,560 --> 01:55:28,840
Speaker 3: of other writers, but it was me. It was just

1906
01:55:28,880 --> 01:55:30,920
Speaker 3: a few of us that went to New York with David.

1907
01:55:31,120 --> 01:55:34,080
Speaker 3: Frank couldn't go because he had four children in la

1908
01:55:34,160 --> 01:55:36,440
Speaker 3: and he didn't want to leave. But it was me

1909
01:55:36,480 --> 01:55:39,520
Speaker 3: and Mitch and a couple other writers. Not Terry Winter

1910
01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:42,720
Speaker 3: didn't come on until later. I think Jason Cahill was

1911
01:55:42,760 --> 01:55:46,000
Speaker 3: one of those original ones, and maybe there was another one.

1912
01:55:46,480 --> 01:55:48,800
Speaker 3: But you sit in a room, you start at ten

1913
01:55:48,880 --> 01:55:51,920
Speaker 3: in the morning. Lunch is brought in, really good lunches

1914
01:55:51,920 --> 01:55:53,800
Speaker 3: because David really likes to eat. So it would be

1915
01:55:53,840 --> 01:55:57,720
Speaker 3: like Viila Pacatta, you know, from the real Italian restaurant.

1916
01:55:57,720 --> 01:56:01,640
Speaker 3: And in Queens there was nobody out there and Queen's

1917
01:56:01,640 --> 01:56:04,840
Speaker 3: at that point, no buildings, nothing. The Silver Cup was

1918
01:56:04,880 --> 01:56:07,360
Speaker 3: a bread factory and that's where we had our offices,

1919
01:56:08,000 --> 01:56:11,200
Speaker 3: very modest to begin with and they became huge, but

1920
01:56:12,600 --> 01:56:15,040
Speaker 3: we just you're in the writing room, you're on the

1921
01:56:15,080 --> 01:56:19,600
Speaker 3: table and you're just David would have the arc of

1922
01:56:19,760 --> 01:56:23,560
Speaker 3: the season on the board, you know, he had he

1923
01:56:23,640 --> 01:56:26,680
Speaker 3: knew what the arc of that season was. That the

1924
01:56:26,720 --> 01:56:31,080
Speaker 3: first season would concern the mother and the plot against him,

1925
01:56:32,080 --> 01:56:37,200
Speaker 3: so we had that vague arc. But also each episode

1926
01:56:37,200 --> 01:56:40,240
Speaker 3: had to stand alone, David would say, like a little movie.

1927
01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:44,160
Speaker 3: So even though while you were serving the larger story

1928
01:56:44,640 --> 01:56:48,160
Speaker 3: and put pushing things in that direction, you'd still have

1929
01:56:48,280 --> 01:56:53,000
Speaker 3: to have a different episode every week, and you'd all

1930
01:56:53,760 --> 01:56:58,600
Speaker 3: you'd all work to develop ideas, you know, from your

1931
01:56:58,680 --> 01:57:03,320
Speaker 3: own experience, or you'd come up with ideas and pitch them.

1932
01:57:03,600 --> 01:57:06,960
Speaker 3: But not like in a comedy room where you're talking

1933
01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:09,800
Speaker 3: all the time and making jokes and jocking for attention.

1934
01:57:10,360 --> 01:57:13,920
Speaker 3: This was more a lot of sitting or a lot

1935
01:57:14,320 --> 01:57:17,600
Speaker 3: a lot of sitting around not talking. So when we

1936
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:20,160
Speaker 3: had somebody finally Matt Weiner came in and I think

1937
01:57:20,160 --> 01:57:22,840
Speaker 3: the fourth or fifth year from comedy, he wouldn't shut

1938
01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:25,160
Speaker 3: up because he was used to that kind of atmosphere.

1939
01:57:25,160 --> 01:57:29,640
Speaker 3: But in our room, it was mostly sitting around until

1940
01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:33,160
Speaker 3: somebody said something that triggered some other thought from some

1941
01:57:33,320 --> 01:57:37,720
Speaker 3: other person. So it was a kind of organic creative process,

1942
01:57:38,000 --> 01:57:40,839
Speaker 3: and this would be every day from ten until seven

1943
01:57:41,720 --> 01:57:43,960
Speaker 3: in the room. You could go take a phone call

1944
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:46,600
Speaker 3: or something, but that was it, you know, you had

1945
01:57:46,680 --> 01:57:53,600
Speaker 3: lunch at that table, and then at some point in

1946
01:57:54,040 --> 01:57:56,720
Speaker 3: talking about an episode, you'd have your three stories. That

1947
01:57:57,360 --> 01:58:01,280
Speaker 3: television is pretty much structured of A, B and C stories,

1948
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:05,200
Speaker 3: and each story has like a certain number of beats

1949
01:58:06,160 --> 01:58:08,720
Speaker 3: in a more for HBO because there was no commercial,

1950
01:58:08,800 --> 01:58:13,480
Speaker 3: so we had actually fifty three or sixty pages, so

1951
01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:16,880
Speaker 3: say the A story would have twenty beats, beats meaning

1952
01:58:17,000 --> 01:58:20,480
Speaker 3: scenes that would tell the story. And so you'd have

1953
01:58:20,560 --> 01:58:23,200
Speaker 3: your story and you'd go to the board. David would

1954
01:58:23,240 --> 01:58:25,440
Speaker 3: usually go to the board with a piece of chalk.

1955
01:58:27,200 --> 01:58:29,520
Speaker 3: Is this what you're asking? Yes, yes, keep going this

1956
01:58:29,680 --> 01:58:32,920
Speaker 3: is this is the creative process. And so David would

1957
01:58:32,960 --> 01:58:35,080
Speaker 3: go to the board and he'd write down the beats

1958
01:58:35,080 --> 01:58:38,360
Speaker 3: of the story. He was really good at especially once

1959
01:58:38,400 --> 01:58:43,400
Speaker 3: you knew once like I could be specific about the

1960
01:58:43,400 --> 01:58:47,880
Speaker 3: college story because that was just such a I just

1961
01:58:47,920 --> 01:58:50,720
Speaker 3: remember that how that process when we came up with

1962
01:58:50,800 --> 01:58:54,880
Speaker 3: the college and I think that that happened in La

1963
01:58:55,160 --> 01:58:58,440
Speaker 3: who hadn't gone to New York yet when we did college. Yeah,

1964
01:58:58,760 --> 01:59:02,120
Speaker 3: I think that's true. David had this idea that he

1965
01:59:02,600 --> 01:59:05,440
Speaker 3: wanted to send Tony on a college tour because that's

1966
01:59:05,440 --> 01:59:11,040
Speaker 3: a funny situation. Yeah, it was in LA. It's a

1967
01:59:11,080 --> 01:59:13,800
Speaker 3: funny situation to begin with, to have a gangster going

1968
01:59:13,840 --> 01:59:17,000
Speaker 3: to these you know, institutions of hire learning and all

1969
01:59:17,080 --> 01:59:21,480
Speaker 3: that with his daughter. So, but you needed something to happen,

1970
01:59:22,720 --> 01:59:25,120
Speaker 3: and you know, it couldn't just be that. There had

1971
01:59:25,120 --> 01:59:27,480
Speaker 3: to be something had to happen. You know, it couldn't

1972
01:59:27,520 --> 01:59:30,920
Speaker 3: just be driving around. I mean, you could get plenty

1973
01:59:30,920 --> 01:59:33,280
Speaker 3: of humor out of that, but you don't have a story.

1974
01:59:33,920 --> 01:59:40,839
Speaker 3: So Frank win Zouli said, Tony sees somebody that turned

1975
01:59:41,120 --> 01:59:45,720
Speaker 3: a rat, who's you know, who's in the witness protection

1976
01:59:45,840 --> 01:59:49,760
Speaker 3: program in New Hampshire. Boom, there's your story. Now you

1977
01:59:49,840 --> 01:59:54,040
Speaker 3: have your story. That's it. See you get it. And

1978
01:59:54,080 --> 01:59:58,760
Speaker 3: so once David knew and David said, you know, I yes,

1979
01:59:58,960 --> 02:00:01,840
Speaker 3: I was, Yes, that's what I was thinking. But you know,

1980
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:06,520
Speaker 3: Frank is the one who said, because once somebody tells

1981
02:00:06,520 --> 02:00:08,640
Speaker 3: you something like that, it may may have been in

1982
02:00:08,760 --> 02:00:12,080
Speaker 3: your in the cloud up there, but that was it.

1983
02:00:12,160 --> 02:00:14,320
Speaker 3: That was the story, that was like what was going

1984
02:00:14,400 --> 02:00:17,400
Speaker 3: to happen, And the whole thing just fell in from there,

1985
02:00:17,440 --> 02:00:20,080
Speaker 3: and David went to the board like I think right

1986
02:00:20,160 --> 02:00:25,880
Speaker 3: then boom boo boom. He did all the beats of

1987
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:29,680
Speaker 3: the story. And then there was another story. There was

1988
02:00:29,760 --> 02:00:33,280
Speaker 3: you know, what's her name? Carmela is at home with

1989
02:00:32,840 --> 02:00:36,480
Speaker 3: a little boy and she has that flirtation with the priest.

1990
02:00:36,680 --> 02:00:38,960
Speaker 3: So Mitch and I went home, and at home we

1991
02:00:39,240 --> 02:00:41,760
Speaker 3: wrote the beats to that story separate, you know, because

1992
02:00:41,800 --> 02:00:44,640
Speaker 3: we were going to do that. We did that story.

1993
02:00:45,200 --> 02:00:48,120
Speaker 3: It was David and I forget the name of another

1994
02:00:48,160 --> 02:00:50,960
Speaker 3: writer who didn't stay with the show, but he wrote

1995
02:00:51,000 --> 02:00:55,600
Speaker 3: the show with that person, and it's decided just like

1996
02:00:55,640 --> 02:00:58,920
Speaker 3: who's who's up, you know, it's like who's kind of

1997
02:00:58,960 --> 02:01:02,720
Speaker 3: turned it is? Who suited to the story? I think

1998
02:01:02,800 --> 02:01:05,960
Speaker 3: David would probably decide. He ran the show. It was

1999
02:01:06,160 --> 02:01:08,840
Speaker 3: very hands on kind of guy. He worked so hard,

2000
02:01:09,560 --> 02:01:15,320
Speaker 3: he was so good at it, and so Jim McManus,

2001
02:01:15,320 --> 02:01:17,680
Speaker 3: that's who it was. So he and David wrote College

2002
02:01:18,400 --> 02:01:20,920
Speaker 3: and that was the only show that HBO ever gave

2003
02:01:21,000 --> 02:01:23,440
Speaker 3: us a note on. That's how great it was to

2004
02:01:23,520 --> 02:01:27,560
Speaker 3: work with them, because you know, in the network somebody said,

2005
02:01:27,600 --> 02:01:30,560
Speaker 3: it's like being pecked to death by ducks, you know,

2006
02:01:30,760 --> 02:01:32,800
Speaker 3: they just pick it. Why does he do that?

2007
02:01:32,800 --> 02:01:33,280
Speaker 2: Why did they?

2008
02:01:33,320 --> 02:01:36,960
Speaker 3: Why does that nothing from HBO? They just they gave

2009
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:40,040
Speaker 3: all the money you wanted, and they gave permission. But

2010
02:01:40,120 --> 02:01:45,280
Speaker 3: they didn't want Tony to kill this guy because that

2011
02:01:45,400 --> 02:01:48,680
Speaker 3: was a big step for the star of the show

2012
02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:52,600
Speaker 3: to go to commit murder. So David did it was

2013
02:01:52,640 --> 02:01:56,320
Speaker 3: the only time, you know, it was the only note.

2014
02:01:56,360 --> 02:02:00,360
Speaker 3: But David heard it, and he made a scene where

2015
02:02:01,040 --> 02:02:06,640
Speaker 3: that the rat that Tony's going to kill almost gets

2016
02:02:06,680 --> 02:02:08,760
Speaker 3: a beat on Tony to kill him. Do you know

2017
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:10,800
Speaker 3: what I mean, So that you know that this is

2018
02:02:10,840 --> 02:02:14,800
Speaker 3: a dangerous guy who spotted Tony. So now Tony kind

2019
02:02:14,800 --> 02:02:17,480
Speaker 3: of has no choice or something. You know. I can't

2020
02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:19,720
Speaker 3: remember if Tony knew the guy was trying to kill him,

2021
02:02:19,760 --> 02:02:23,000
Speaker 3: but the audience did. I can't remember that part. But

2022
02:02:23,440 --> 02:02:27,360
Speaker 3: that's the process, you know. And and you know the

2023
02:02:27,440 --> 02:02:30,000
Speaker 3: show where it wasn't the first year, but the show

2024
02:02:30,040 --> 02:02:38,240
Speaker 3: where where Paulie and and as Michael Imperial is Christopher Peons. Yeah,

2025
02:02:38,400 --> 02:02:42,160
Speaker 3: Pine Barrens there in the woods. You know, we held

2026
02:02:42,200 --> 02:02:46,480
Speaker 3: that that episode for a year because it didn't find

2027
02:02:46,480 --> 02:02:50,080
Speaker 3: the place in the season somehow. What was I going

2028
02:02:50,160 --> 02:02:53,880
Speaker 3: to say about it. Oh, you know, we all broke

2029
02:02:53,960 --> 02:02:56,480
Speaker 3: that story in the room, you know, so you could

2030
02:02:56,480 --> 02:02:59,760
Speaker 3: sit there and now you know, you're sitting there with

2031
02:02:59,800 --> 02:03:03,960
Speaker 3: these really funny people, really funny smart people, what fun

2032
02:03:04,640 --> 02:03:06,880
Speaker 3: and you're trying to think what could happen out there

2033
02:03:06,880 --> 02:03:10,600
Speaker 3: in the woods, you know, and you know, you know

2034
02:03:10,840 --> 02:03:14,000
Speaker 3: Christopher loses a shoe and then he makes a sho

2035
02:03:14,080 --> 02:03:15,919
Speaker 3: He's going to make a shoe out of a carpet.

2036
02:03:16,040 --> 02:03:18,520
Speaker 3: But it's that kind of creative stuff where you go

2037
02:03:19,000 --> 02:03:21,960
Speaker 3: like fiction writing, where you actually go into the scene,

2038
02:03:22,600 --> 02:03:26,680
Speaker 3: you know, and you're there playing really seeing what's there,

2039
02:03:26,800 --> 02:03:29,680
Speaker 3: what you can fuck around with, you know, and you

2040
02:03:29,680 --> 02:03:32,440
Speaker 3: could do anything on that show. You know. I remember

2041
02:03:32,480 --> 02:03:36,960
Speaker 3: when you know, when Ralphie killed the stripper. I remember

2042
02:03:37,000 --> 02:03:40,160
Speaker 3: that process, you know, and that was like, we needed

2043
02:03:40,200 --> 02:03:43,440
Speaker 3: a story where Ralphie has to do you know, we

2044
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:45,640
Speaker 3: had to get rid of you know, Ralfie was going

2045
02:03:45,720 --> 02:03:48,920
Speaker 3: to die one way or the other, so he has

2046
02:03:49,000 --> 02:03:52,000
Speaker 3: to do something just oh, I know, David didn't want

2047
02:03:52,000 --> 02:03:55,160
Speaker 3: any like cuddly gangsters. He wanted these people to be shits,

2048
02:03:55,200 --> 02:03:58,880
Speaker 3: you know. So so then you know, so somebody says, well,

2049
02:04:00,720 --> 02:04:06,920
Speaker 3: Ralphie kills a dog, kills a stripper's dog, and we're like, no,

2050
02:04:06,960 --> 02:04:09,760
Speaker 3: you can't. You can't be killing a dog on television,

2051
02:04:09,920 --> 02:04:13,160
Speaker 3: just so you lose the audience with that. So Mick says, well,

2052
02:04:13,200 --> 02:04:15,400
Speaker 3: what about if he kills the stripper. Oh, that's fine,

2053
02:04:15,440 --> 02:04:19,200
Speaker 3: you know, you can kill the stripper. I mean, frankly,

2054
02:04:20,080 --> 02:04:23,160
Speaker 3: I don't think in today's PC atmosphere, I don't know

2055
02:04:23,400 --> 02:04:28,360
Speaker 3: if anything ever got out about the conversations in that room.

2056
02:04:28,560 --> 02:04:31,480
Speaker 3: You know, there were no governors on any of our motors,

2057
02:04:31,840 --> 02:04:34,920
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. Everyone got to play and

2058
02:04:35,240 --> 02:04:41,200
Speaker 3: and and just be their worst. It's fun, you know.

2059
02:04:41,240 --> 02:04:46,640
Speaker 3: It was funny because you could say anything, and but

2060
02:04:46,720 --> 02:04:49,080
Speaker 3: you did edit yourself. You know, you didn't kill a dog,

2061
02:04:49,120 --> 02:04:51,240
Speaker 3: although later we did kill a dog. And then House

2062
02:04:51,280 --> 02:04:53,480
Speaker 3: of Cards or whatever that show was, they really killed

2063
02:04:53,480 --> 02:04:56,160
Speaker 3: a dog. So I guess that tampoo went too.

2064
02:04:58,120 --> 02:05:00,200
Speaker 2: It's still a rough one. But let's stay with the

2065
02:05:00,240 --> 02:05:05,320
Speaker 2: Pine Bearings, which was a phenomenal episode. Always bothered me

2066
02:05:05,480 --> 02:05:07,320
Speaker 2: that the Russian never reappeared.

2067
02:05:09,040 --> 02:05:12,800
Speaker 3: The worst part about that episode was that at one

2068
02:05:12,840 --> 02:05:15,960
Speaker 3: point the director, and I think it was Colder who

2069
02:05:16,000 --> 02:05:19,040
Speaker 3: directed it, maybe not, I can't remember who directed it,

2070
02:05:19,440 --> 02:05:23,120
Speaker 3: but he did a shot that was a point of

2071
02:05:23,200 --> 02:05:27,920
Speaker 3: view from a tree looking down. Do you understand he

2072
02:05:27,960 --> 02:05:32,280
Speaker 3: put a camera up looking down that gave the impression

2073
02:05:32,680 --> 02:05:34,240
Speaker 3: that it was from the point of view of the

2074
02:05:34,320 --> 02:05:38,480
Speaker 3: Russian and that the Russian had lived, which was just wrong.

2075
02:05:38,920 --> 02:05:42,160
Speaker 3: It was just a really wrong. It really bumped. You know,

2076
02:05:42,200 --> 02:05:44,800
Speaker 3: I'm not critical about much, but I remember thinking, this

2077
02:05:44,840 --> 02:05:47,200
Speaker 3: is a mistake. He should not have stayed in the picture,

2078
02:05:47,960 --> 02:05:50,840
Speaker 3: because it's kind of absurd to think that the guy

2079
02:05:51,600 --> 02:05:54,520
Speaker 3: would reappear. You know, he was shot in the head.

2080
02:05:56,440 --> 02:05:59,040
Speaker 2: I say, that's what I think.

2081
02:05:59,080 --> 02:06:00,520
Speaker 3: It's hilarious show.

2082
02:06:01,880 --> 02:06:06,960
Speaker 2: Okay, So the episodes were pretty fleshed out before someone

2083
02:06:07,000 --> 02:06:08,000
Speaker 2: went away and wrote them.

2084
02:06:08,160 --> 02:06:11,840
Speaker 3: Oh god, yes, you break them. You have okay, you

2085
02:06:11,880 --> 02:06:14,760
Speaker 3: want to know what really happens. So there's like an

2086
02:06:14,800 --> 02:06:17,520
Speaker 3: A story of B story, C story, sometimes a D story.

2087
02:06:17,960 --> 02:06:21,200
Speaker 3: You take the beats, you type them up. Somebody types

2088
02:06:21,240 --> 02:06:24,680
Speaker 3: them up right. Then she or he brings the type

2089
02:06:24,760 --> 02:06:30,200
Speaker 3: of beats into the into the conference room where we

2090
02:06:30,320 --> 02:06:34,680
Speaker 3: sit our entire lives away, and I take a scissor

2091
02:06:35,880 --> 02:06:38,720
Speaker 3: me because I like to do this, I cut each

2092
02:06:39,040 --> 02:06:41,680
Speaker 3: piece of paper so that now there are strips which

2093
02:06:41,720 --> 02:06:44,960
Speaker 3: each other beats. So now I have to marry like

2094
02:06:45,880 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 3: forty pieces of paper together in order, you know, to

2095
02:06:49,200 --> 02:06:52,200
Speaker 3: make an arc, to make a shape of a story.

2096
02:06:52,440 --> 02:06:54,520
Speaker 3: But I was good at that. I like to I'm

2097
02:06:54,560 --> 02:06:56,560
Speaker 3: good at structure, do you know what I mean? And

2098
02:06:56,840 --> 02:07:00,880
Speaker 3: everything was already done so, and then you have all

2099
02:07:00,920 --> 02:07:03,520
Speaker 3: the little strips of paper arranged in the proper order,

2100
02:07:03,600 --> 02:07:06,640
Speaker 3: you know, one, two, three, four by sixt seventy eight,

2101
02:07:06,680 --> 02:07:09,680
Speaker 3: you know, like that, You take some scotch tape. This

2102
02:07:09,800 --> 02:07:12,640
Speaker 3: is very technical, and you lay it over the pieces

2103
02:07:12,720 --> 02:07:16,640
Speaker 3: of paper so that they're all, you know, together, and

2104
02:07:16,680 --> 02:07:19,560
Speaker 3: then you can give them back to the assistant so

2105
02:07:19,600 --> 02:07:24,000
Speaker 3: that he can type them up. And that's your outline, right,

2106
02:07:24,400 --> 02:07:26,120
Speaker 3: very very it's.

2107
02:07:26,040 --> 02:07:28,480
Speaker 2: Pretty fleshed out before you write it.

2108
02:07:28,920 --> 02:07:34,440
Speaker 3: Oh completely, yes, But that's that's only half the story.

2109
02:07:34,480 --> 02:07:37,160
Speaker 3: It still takes three weeks to do the script because

2110
02:07:37,280 --> 02:07:41,280
Speaker 3: you have to think about how to serve the scene

2111
02:07:42,280 --> 02:07:46,360
Speaker 3: that you've said is going to happen. In other words,

2112
02:07:46,360 --> 02:07:50,280
Speaker 3: you know, you know what's you know what the point

2113
02:07:50,800 --> 02:07:53,120
Speaker 3: of the scene is, but you don't know the dialogue.

2114
02:07:53,200 --> 02:07:56,240
Speaker 3: You don't know what I mean, you know lots of

2115
02:07:56,320 --> 02:07:59,200
Speaker 3: things about it, but you still have to write it.

2116
02:08:00,200 --> 02:08:03,120
Speaker 3: Not being very articulate, but no, I get it.

2117
02:08:03,160 --> 02:08:06,800
Speaker 2: Okay, the writer's room are you are the people writing

2118
02:08:06,960 --> 02:08:10,160
Speaker 2: scripts while the writer's room still takes place?

2119
02:08:10,320 --> 02:08:13,840
Speaker 3: Or yes, you take your outline and you go home,

2120
02:08:15,760 --> 02:08:21,040
Speaker 3: and then after you finish the script, you go with

2121
02:08:21,080 --> 02:08:23,960
Speaker 3: your script. Well, Mitch and I would split up and

2122
02:08:24,000 --> 02:08:26,560
Speaker 3: he would one of us would stay in the room,

2123
02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:30,760
Speaker 3: but one of us would would participate in costume in

2124
02:08:30,840 --> 02:08:35,120
Speaker 3: all of the meetings that go with each episode. You

2125
02:08:35,160 --> 02:08:38,800
Speaker 3: meet with costumes, you meet with, set design, you meet with.

2126
02:08:39,280 --> 02:08:42,120
Speaker 3: Casting is like huge. It takes a lot of time

2127
02:08:42,120 --> 02:08:44,880
Speaker 3: and it's the most fun probably of anything on earth.

2128
02:08:46,600 --> 02:08:50,040
Speaker 3: So you cast your show and David is there through

2129
02:08:50,080 --> 02:08:53,480
Speaker 3: it all. So when something important is going on, like

2130
02:08:53,560 --> 02:08:56,280
Speaker 3: those meetings, he will leave the story room and go

2131
02:08:56,400 --> 02:09:00,360
Speaker 3: and participate in the meeting with the writer and you know,

2132
02:09:00,400 --> 02:09:04,360
Speaker 3: the chief of that department, whatever the department is, like costumes,

2133
02:09:04,400 --> 02:09:04,920
Speaker 3: et cetera.

2134
02:09:05,440 --> 02:09:08,560
Speaker 2: Let me be very specific. If there are ten episodes,

2135
02:09:08,640 --> 02:09:12,800
Speaker 2: let's say, are all ten episodes laid out, and then

2136
02:09:12,840 --> 02:09:17,000
Speaker 2: everybody retweets and writes in this process, So people are

2137
02:09:17,080 --> 02:09:21,040
Speaker 2: still working out episodes while somebody's back home right in it?

2138
02:09:21,400 --> 02:09:24,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean you're up against it all

2139
02:09:25,000 --> 02:09:30,360
Speaker 3: the time. You know, it takes like probably I can't remember,

2140
02:09:30,440 --> 02:09:33,880
Speaker 3: it's like five weeks to go from the story room

2141
02:09:34,240 --> 02:09:41,080
Speaker 3: to filming. But it's a you know, it's a demanding situation.

2142
02:09:41,480 --> 02:09:43,800
Speaker 3: That's one of the reasons David would take so long

2143
02:09:43,880 --> 02:09:46,400
Speaker 3: between seasons. You know, you go off to France and

2144
02:09:47,240 --> 02:09:50,920
Speaker 3: rest because because you're up against it all the time,

2145
02:09:51,520 --> 02:09:55,560
Speaker 3: you know, and also sopranos. You know, we were in

2146
02:09:55,720 --> 02:09:58,320
Speaker 3: Silver Cup, we were in Queen's We had to load

2147
02:09:58,520 --> 02:10:00,920
Speaker 3: you know, we filmed half the time. I'm in New Jersey.

2148
02:10:00,920 --> 02:10:04,600
Speaker 3: You had to load the trucks up, take them through Manhattan,

2149
02:10:04,800 --> 02:10:07,000
Speaker 3: then go through a tunnel over a bridge into New

2150
02:10:07,080 --> 02:10:10,040
Speaker 3: Jersey and be set up to film at six in

2151
02:10:10,080 --> 02:10:14,720
Speaker 3: the morning. So you're filming till midnight. You're lucky if

2152
02:10:14,760 --> 02:10:18,040
Speaker 3: you get six hours. It goes like that. You know,

2153
02:10:18,400 --> 02:10:21,560
Speaker 3: it was just your life. It's your life for those months.

2154
02:10:22,480 --> 02:10:27,320
Speaker 3: But you're not always on the set, meaning me, you're

2155
02:10:27,360 --> 02:10:29,600
Speaker 3: in the story room a lot, and you get really

2156
02:10:29,640 --> 02:10:31,320
Speaker 3: sick of that. You're glad to go on the set,

2157
02:10:31,320 --> 02:10:33,240
Speaker 3: and you get really sick of that, You're glad to

2158
02:10:33,240 --> 02:10:36,960
Speaker 3: go back in this story room and.

2159
02:10:36,720 --> 02:10:40,520
Speaker 2: Being an executive producer is that just the title and

2160
02:10:40,800 --> 02:10:43,280
Speaker 2: compensation or did it actually mean anything?

2161
02:10:46,440 --> 02:10:52,720
Speaker 3: Well, being a title and compensation is very meaningful, But it.

2162
02:10:52,680 --> 02:10:57,320
Speaker 2: Didn't change your responsibilities, is my point.

2163
02:10:59,600 --> 02:11:05,760
Speaker 3: Well, I don't know everybody in that room pretty much

2164
02:11:05,800 --> 02:11:09,480
Speaker 3: at the end, wasn't exactly because you know, I think

2165
02:11:09,560 --> 02:11:12,480
Speaker 3: Terry became one and Matt probably two. You know, there

2166
02:11:12,480 --> 02:11:16,280
Speaker 3: were only few people in the room, you know, the

2167
02:11:16,320 --> 02:11:18,640
Speaker 3: people that came with us from LA, they didn't stay.

2168
02:11:18,960 --> 02:11:21,040
Speaker 3: It was me and then Terry came. It was me

2169
02:11:21,120 --> 02:11:26,280
Speaker 3: and Mitch and David. Me and mentioned David and Terry.

2170
02:11:26,960 --> 02:11:30,880
Speaker 3: And maybe sometimes there would be freelance writers who'd come,

2171
02:11:31,400 --> 02:11:33,440
Speaker 3: and sometimes there would be writers, and maybe there were

2172
02:11:33,440 --> 02:11:35,840
Speaker 3: writers who were more there. I can't remember, you know,

2173
02:11:35,840 --> 02:11:38,160
Speaker 3: it's a long time ago. But you know, I don't

2174
02:11:38,200 --> 02:11:40,880
Speaker 3: want to hurt anyone's feelings. You know, when Frank would

2175
02:11:40,920 --> 02:11:43,840
Speaker 3: weigh in from LA, but he was only there for

2176
02:11:43,880 --> 02:11:47,240
Speaker 3: the first two or three years. But there weren't many

2177
02:11:47,240 --> 02:11:50,160
Speaker 3: people in the room. No, you know.

2178
02:11:50,840 --> 02:11:53,120
Speaker 2: Okay, So how does it end for you and Mitch

2179
02:11:53,280 --> 02:11:56,120
Speaker 2: with the sopranos.

2180
02:11:56,200 --> 02:12:01,080
Speaker 3: As per usual? I guess it's my charming, massive aggressive way.

2181
02:12:01,160 --> 02:12:06,240
Speaker 3: I just became disaffected. I didn't like what was happening

2182
02:12:06,240 --> 02:12:09,680
Speaker 3: in the room anymore. I didn't like all the gangster stuff.

2183
02:12:10,040 --> 02:12:12,720
Speaker 3: The thing became so much about gangsters and so much

2184
02:12:12,720 --> 02:12:19,760
Speaker 3: about silly guide jokes, and and Matt and David would

2185
02:12:19,800 --> 02:12:22,720
Speaker 3: talk about French foreign films until I just wanted to

2186
02:12:22,720 --> 02:12:27,120
Speaker 3: just scream, and I just wasn't enjoying myself. But rather

2187
02:12:27,200 --> 02:12:32,400
Speaker 3: than you know, David had this meeting after after season

2188
02:12:32,480 --> 02:12:34,800
Speaker 3: five where he called us all out on a Sunday.

2189
02:12:35,120 --> 02:12:38,560
Speaker 3: We went, we went of to uh it wasn't Matt

2190
02:12:38,800 --> 02:12:41,000
Speaker 3: wasn't there, but it was Terry Winter and Me and Mitch,

2191
02:12:42,000 --> 02:12:44,720
Speaker 3: David and his wife was there with him. He called

2192
02:12:44,800 --> 02:12:47,760
Speaker 3: us there on Sunday to have a meeting and he said,

2193
02:12:48,400 --> 02:12:51,760
Speaker 3: does anyone have it? Because does anyone have it in

2194
02:12:52,360 --> 02:12:56,520
Speaker 3: them to continue? Or have we done it? Because of

2195
02:12:56,680 --> 02:12:59,880
Speaker 3: HBO is backed up to the money truck to David's house.

2196
02:13:00,080 --> 02:13:01,920
Speaker 3: You know what I mean. They're just good to do anything,

2197
02:13:02,240 --> 02:13:06,680
Speaker 3: and so do you how do you all feel? And

2198
02:13:06,800 --> 02:13:09,600
Speaker 3: Terry Winter's arm shoots up and it's like, yeah, I

2199
02:13:09,600 --> 02:13:12,280
Speaker 3: can do it. And once that happens, you know, and

2200
02:13:12,960 --> 02:13:15,120
Speaker 3: you're sitting there and I'm sitting there and I'm thinking,

2201
02:13:15,160 --> 02:13:18,600
Speaker 3: I really don't want to do this anymore. But how

2202
02:13:18,600 --> 02:13:20,840
Speaker 3: can I leave this? You know, how can I leave

2203
02:13:21,280 --> 02:13:23,440
Speaker 3: this show that I love, the money that I love.

2204
02:13:26,280 --> 02:13:30,480
Speaker 3: I just didn't. I didn't have the I didn't say,

2205
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:34,680
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm done. I didn't. I stayed, but

2206
02:13:34,800 --> 02:13:39,760
Speaker 3: I was done. And you know, that's a lesson that

2207
02:13:40,360 --> 02:13:43,080
Speaker 3: I probably won't pay attention to if it ever happens again,

2208
02:13:43,120 --> 02:13:46,000
Speaker 3: I'll do the same thing because I wanted to stay,

2209
02:13:47,400 --> 02:13:51,040
Speaker 3: but I but I really I don't think my heart

2210
02:13:51,080 --> 02:13:54,320
Speaker 3: was in it. And I just was not part of

2211
02:13:54,360 --> 02:13:59,640
Speaker 3: it anymore. The David had it started to kind of

2212
02:13:59,680 --> 02:14:03,040
Speaker 3: hate on me. I'd seen it happen with other people,

2213
02:14:03,120 --> 02:14:05,320
Speaker 3: but I think I brought a lot of it on myself.

2214
02:14:05,600 --> 02:14:08,360
Speaker 3: So that's what happened. It was just personal and it

2215
02:14:08,400 --> 02:14:10,960
Speaker 3: was just icky, and oh he brought these other people

2216
02:14:11,000 --> 02:14:14,840
Speaker 3: on that we'd worked with before. It just felt the

2217
02:14:14,880 --> 02:14:17,760
Speaker 3: tenor of the thing was changing. It wasn't very happy,

2218
02:14:18,280 --> 02:14:20,440
Speaker 3: and that is one thing that you don't want in

2219
02:14:20,480 --> 02:14:24,000
Speaker 3: your life. And it's me when I'm not happy. And

2220
02:14:24,040 --> 02:14:27,000
Speaker 3: so he fired me. He didn't fire Mitch, but he

2221
02:14:27,080 --> 02:14:27,480
Speaker 3: fired me.

2222
02:14:28,560 --> 02:14:29,560
Speaker 2: But Mitch left with you.

2223
02:14:30,320 --> 02:14:32,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Mitch wasn't gonna State without me.

2224
02:14:33,040 --> 02:14:35,800
Speaker 2: But this was the final season, correct.

2225
02:14:35,800 --> 02:14:38,560
Speaker 3: Well, the season was split up in a couple of

2226
02:14:38,600 --> 02:14:41,160
Speaker 3: pieces because it was six it was season six. There

2227
02:14:41,200 --> 02:14:46,640
Speaker 3: were six seasons. But you know, I think the last

2228
02:14:46,680 --> 02:14:50,240
Speaker 3: part of the sixth season is what I missed, you know,

2229
02:14:50,360 --> 02:14:54,839
Speaker 3: the last six episodes or something. Yeah, David was afraid

2230
02:14:54,840 --> 02:14:58,040
Speaker 3: that I was going to sue him or something, you

2231
02:14:58,040 --> 02:14:59,960
Speaker 3: were going to You're going to hit him because you know,

2232
02:15:00,040 --> 02:15:02,200
Speaker 3: I said to him, I've seen you have this problem,

2233
02:15:02,600 --> 02:15:05,000
Speaker 3: you know, with a couple of women on the show,

2234
02:15:05,160 --> 02:15:08,600
Speaker 3: and he slammed the table so hard. I jumped and said,

2235
02:15:08,600 --> 02:15:10,600
Speaker 3: this has nothing to do with your being a woman.

2236
02:15:11,920 --> 02:15:15,120
Speaker 3: And I think it just occurred to me at that

2237
02:15:15,200 --> 02:15:18,880
Speaker 3: moment that he had probably talked to his HBO about

2238
02:15:18,880 --> 02:15:22,920
Speaker 3: this and they wanted to not be sued, you know,

2239
02:15:23,240 --> 02:15:25,520
Speaker 3: for you know, and I had said something about him

2240
02:15:25,560 --> 02:15:28,680
Speaker 3: and women. But I you know, I wasn't going to sue.

2241
02:15:29,200 --> 02:15:30,840
Speaker 3: I was just wanted to get out of there. I

2242
02:15:30,960 --> 02:15:36,840
Speaker 3: was devastating. Mitch and I it was awful to take

2243
02:15:36,880 --> 02:15:40,920
Speaker 3: our box and leave, you know, a few meager belongings

2244
02:15:40,960 --> 02:15:45,120
Speaker 3: and leave. I mean, what David said was that I

2245
02:15:45,200 --> 02:15:48,400
Speaker 3: couldn't didn't get the show that our writing was no

2246
02:15:48,560 --> 02:15:53,240
Speaker 3: good and forward anymore, and he didn't like it. That's

2247
02:15:53,360 --> 02:15:56,520
Speaker 3: that was the basis on which he fired me. And

2248
02:15:56,600 --> 02:16:00,280
Speaker 3: so we left and we went We felt really bad,

2249
02:16:00,360 --> 02:16:04,600
Speaker 3: you know, relieved bad, and we went to Gettysburg because

2250
02:16:04,640 --> 02:16:07,480
Speaker 3: Mitch is like a history major and he's been to

2251
02:16:07,560 --> 02:16:10,080
Speaker 3: all of the president's houses and stuff, and we knew

2252
02:16:10,080 --> 02:16:13,720
Speaker 3: if we went to Gettysburg that they would have had

2253
02:16:13,760 --> 02:16:19,560
Speaker 3: it worse than us Gettysburg. So that's I love Mitch

2254
02:16:19,600 --> 02:16:22,000
Speaker 3: for that. You know, He's taken me all kinds of

2255
02:16:22,040 --> 02:16:26,360
Speaker 3: places where I would never have gone for good reasons

2256
02:16:27,200 --> 02:16:30,320
Speaker 3: that he took me there. But anyway, that's what we

2257
02:16:30,360 --> 02:16:33,720
Speaker 3: did the weekend that we were fired. And you know, David,

2258
02:16:33,720 --> 02:16:36,039
Speaker 3: I didn't I would see him on the picket line

2259
02:16:36,120 --> 02:16:39,160
Speaker 3: or something and turned my back on him and just

2260
02:16:39,280 --> 02:16:43,640
Speaker 3: you know, act like drama queen. But fourteen years later

2261
02:16:43,680 --> 02:16:47,959
Speaker 3: he called me on the phone. Do you know who

2262
02:16:48,000 --> 02:16:51,720
Speaker 3: this is? Yes, I know who it is, And he

2263
02:16:51,800 --> 02:16:54,200
Speaker 3: wanted to tell me that he'd been reading some of

2264
02:16:54,240 --> 02:17:00,360
Speaker 3: the almost grown scripts and he just wanted to tell me,

2265
02:17:00,480 --> 02:17:02,840
Speaker 3: you know that I'd written fourteen years before or whatever

2266
02:17:02,879 --> 02:17:05,080
Speaker 3: it was, and he just wanted to tell me what

2267
02:17:05,160 --> 02:17:08,360
Speaker 3: a good writer he thought I was. So it was

2268
02:17:08,400 --> 02:17:12,480
Speaker 3: his way of making them you know, Amend's or something.

2269
02:17:12,520 --> 02:17:14,200
Speaker 3: I don't know what it was. I haven't talked to

2270
02:17:14,280 --> 02:17:19,200
Speaker 3: him since, but that's how that's how it ended. And

2271
02:17:19,280 --> 02:17:23,800
Speaker 3: Mitch said, you know, it's really remarkable that he called you.

2272
02:17:25,600 --> 02:17:28,240
Speaker 3: It's actually kind of a victory for you in a way.

2273
02:17:28,920 --> 02:17:30,879
Speaker 3: He said, just don't be a jerk about it.

2274
02:17:32,520 --> 02:17:37,800
Speaker 2: Okay, so the final season, you work on the first half,

2275
02:17:37,800 --> 02:17:40,800
Speaker 2: you don't work on the second half. Do you watch

2276
02:17:40,879 --> 02:17:43,720
Speaker 2: the second half? It is too painful to watch?

2277
02:17:43,879 --> 02:17:46,000
Speaker 3: It isn't painful. I just I was sick of it.

2278
02:17:46,200 --> 02:17:49,879
Speaker 3: I was sick of the gangsters running over heads, popping

2279
02:17:50,080 --> 02:17:53,280
Speaker 3: like melons. I just didn't like that part of it.

2280
02:17:53,320 --> 02:17:56,119
Speaker 3: I like the family part, and that had part had

2281
02:17:56,120 --> 02:17:59,280
Speaker 3: pretty much played out. By then, We've done everything we could.

2282
02:17:59,600 --> 02:18:03,400
Speaker 3: You know that great episode where they get the house

2283
02:18:03,400 --> 02:18:06,879
Speaker 3: in New Jersey, This happens Lee's house. We don't all

2284
02:18:06,879 --> 02:18:08,879
Speaker 3: the family stuff. It was over for me.

2285
02:18:09,040 --> 02:18:10,920
Speaker 2: Okay, then I have to ask. One of my favorite

2286
02:18:10,959 --> 02:18:18,959
Speaker 2: things is when Meadows being punished and Tony says, well,

2287
02:18:18,959 --> 02:18:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, why don't you come up with the idea

2288
02:18:20,720 --> 02:18:24,320
Speaker 2: just take away my gas credit card, and then she

2289
02:18:24,360 --> 02:18:27,160
Speaker 2: gets on the phone and tells her friend, Oh, man,

2290
02:18:27,200 --> 02:18:29,320
Speaker 2: I got them. So I got my parents so snowed.

2291
02:18:29,720 --> 02:18:30,480
Speaker 2: I just love that.

2292
02:18:31,400 --> 02:18:33,280
Speaker 3: I don't remember that. That's so funny.

2293
02:18:34,400 --> 02:18:36,520
Speaker 2: So it was the family stuff that made it great.

2294
02:18:36,720 --> 02:18:39,760
Speaker 2: But you did eventually watch the final episodes.

2295
02:18:40,480 --> 02:18:42,920
Speaker 3: I did. I watched the end of it. I just

2296
02:18:42,959 --> 02:18:44,080
Speaker 3: watched that last scene.

2297
02:18:45,440 --> 02:18:47,920
Speaker 2: I think, I don't really care, but I got to ask,

2298
02:18:48,640 --> 02:18:51,560
Speaker 2: what did you think the last scene represented.

2299
02:18:51,959 --> 02:18:58,200
Speaker 3: About Tony's future? Yeah, it was my idea that we

2300
02:18:58,200 --> 02:19:04,360
Speaker 3: should always live with anxiety in Tony's stomach. That's that

2301
02:19:04,520 --> 02:19:08,640
Speaker 3: was my feeling, and I would have maybe represented it differently,

2302
02:19:09,640 --> 02:19:12,920
Speaker 3: but I think that I think the effect that it

2303
02:19:13,000 --> 02:19:15,080
Speaker 3: had on me when I watched that last scene is

2304
02:19:15,120 --> 02:19:20,360
Speaker 3: that you just feel that anxiety, that constant terror that

2305
02:19:20,440 --> 02:19:26,040
Speaker 3: he felt the character. And you know, when I describe

2306
02:19:26,040 --> 02:19:30,199
Speaker 3: what happened to me there, the atmosphere had become toxic

2307
02:19:30,280 --> 02:19:34,280
Speaker 3: in some way. You know that the show, I don't

2308
02:19:34,280 --> 02:19:37,640
Speaker 3: think it did Jim that many favors either the character.

2309
02:19:38,760 --> 02:19:43,280
Speaker 2: Okay, you're done. How long are you depressed and licking

2310
02:19:43,320 --> 02:19:44,840
Speaker 2: your wounds till you do whatever?

2311
02:19:48,760 --> 02:19:54,400
Speaker 3: Well? Ah, I know we have a couple houses now three.

2312
02:19:54,560 --> 02:20:00,440
Speaker 3: Actually we created a show called Blue Bloods, and we

2313
02:20:00,480 --> 02:20:03,080
Speaker 3: had been pitched many things in many shows, because when

2314
02:20:03,080 --> 02:20:05,760
Speaker 3: you call off a show like Sopranos, I'm sorry if

2315
02:20:05,760 --> 02:20:09,920
Speaker 3: the sound is weird, my voice is so from all right,

2316
02:20:11,760 --> 02:20:14,640
Speaker 3: everybody wants you, you know, even though you've been fired.

2317
02:20:16,959 --> 02:20:19,680
Speaker 3: People got over that very quickly. But so we had

2318
02:20:19,720 --> 02:20:21,400
Speaker 3: lots of things that we could have done. We could

2319
02:20:21,440 --> 02:20:24,199
Speaker 3: have done the Americans, we could have run that show,

2320
02:20:24,480 --> 02:20:26,840
Speaker 3: or maybe we could have We were kind of offered

2321
02:20:27,120 --> 02:20:29,879
Speaker 3: to look at it. It looked too hard to me,

2322
02:20:30,160 --> 02:20:32,800
Speaker 3: you know, it looked like I couldn't be so hard.

2323
02:20:32,800 --> 02:20:35,280
Speaker 3: I couldn't wrap my hand around it. But friends went

2324
02:20:35,320 --> 02:20:41,200
Speaker 3: to work on it was a wonderful show. But we

2325
02:20:41,200 --> 02:20:43,920
Speaker 3: were pitched the show. Elliott called and he said, just

2326
02:20:43,959 --> 02:20:45,959
Speaker 3: listen to this pitch. You'll hate it. Just do me

2327
02:20:45,959 --> 02:20:48,520
Speaker 3: a favor. I owe this person a favor. Just listen.

2328
02:20:48,840 --> 02:20:51,200
Speaker 3: And it was Leonard Goldberg, who was also part of

2329
02:20:51,200 --> 02:20:55,400
Speaker 3: that like you know our in spelling world. But Leonard

2330
02:20:55,400 --> 02:20:58,640
Speaker 3: gets on the phone and we were in our living

2331
02:20:58,760 --> 02:21:01,440
Speaker 3: room in New York City, me and Mitch because we

2332
02:21:01,560 --> 02:21:03,920
Speaker 3: moved to New York by then. Do the Sopranos, and

2333
02:21:03,959 --> 02:21:08,360
Speaker 3: we lived there. We stayed and he pictures us this

2334
02:21:08,600 --> 02:21:13,200
Speaker 3: family drama that's a cop show, and he kind of

2335
02:21:13,240 --> 02:21:17,440
Speaker 3: had it. It was like a thirty second pitch and

2336
02:21:18,280 --> 02:21:20,160
Speaker 3: Mitch and I just looked at each other and said

2337
02:21:20,640 --> 02:21:22,840
Speaker 3: and called Elliott and said tell him we'll do it,

2338
02:21:23,400 --> 02:21:25,119
Speaker 3: because we knew we could do it. We knew how

2339
02:21:25,120 --> 02:21:27,800
Speaker 3: to do it, we saw it, we knew it was

2340
02:21:27,840 --> 02:21:29,800
Speaker 3: a good idea. I don't know why nobody thought of

2341
02:21:29,800 --> 02:21:32,840
Speaker 3: that it sooner, because it's a great idea and we

2342
02:21:32,920 --> 02:21:35,720
Speaker 3: knew we could do it. I went on, you know,

2343
02:21:36,040 --> 02:21:38,840
Speaker 3: I would the press tours. I would say things like

2344
02:21:38,959 --> 02:21:42,760
Speaker 3: to just infuriate David. Probably. I got tired of writing

2345
02:21:42,760 --> 02:21:45,160
Speaker 3: the anti hero and I wanted to see what it

2346
02:21:45,240 --> 02:21:47,760
Speaker 3: was to be a hero. And that was kind of true.

2347
02:21:48,840 --> 02:21:50,959
Speaker 3: I mean, my problem was that the hero turned out

2348
02:21:51,000 --> 02:21:54,200
Speaker 3: to be Tom Sellick, and then when we got him

2349
02:21:54,240 --> 02:21:56,720
Speaker 3: to come back to television to be on the show,

2350
02:21:57,280 --> 02:22:00,120
Speaker 3: it very quickly became his show, not my show, ye,

2351
02:22:01,120 --> 02:22:03,320
Speaker 3: and that that was untenable for me.

2352
02:22:05,640 --> 02:22:07,440
Speaker 2: And when you move on from there, so.

2353
02:22:07,480 --> 02:22:10,119
Speaker 3: We were fired from there too. So we were fired

2354
02:22:10,160 --> 02:22:12,360
Speaker 3: after a year because I couldn't get along with Tom

2355
02:22:12,840 --> 02:22:14,920
Speaker 3: But by then we owned a piece of the show

2356
02:22:15,200 --> 02:22:18,400
Speaker 3: because by then, you know, writer could do that, right.

2357
02:22:18,560 --> 02:22:21,480
Speaker 3: So that's so the show is in its fourteenth year.

2358
02:22:21,720 --> 02:22:24,760
Speaker 3: We have created by credit. God bless Leonard Goldberg, who's

2359
02:22:24,800 --> 02:22:29,560
Speaker 3: now you know, he's dead. What's a nice way to

2360
02:22:29,600 --> 02:22:33,680
Speaker 3: saying it. He's passed on, right, He's dead, he's gone.

2361
02:22:33,840 --> 02:22:34,200
Speaker 2: But so.

2362
02:22:36,480 --> 02:22:39,080
Speaker 3: He gave us created by credit because we did create it.

2363
02:22:39,120 --> 02:22:41,959
Speaker 3: You know, it wasn't that nailed down in terms of

2364
02:22:42,000 --> 02:22:44,640
Speaker 3: what city or any of that stuff, but it was

2365
02:22:44,640 --> 02:22:48,640
Speaker 3: his idea. But we so we and we owned a

2366
02:22:48,640 --> 02:22:53,000
Speaker 3: piece of it. Still we enjoy the benefits of having started,

2367
02:22:53,120 --> 02:22:56,360
Speaker 3: having created the show. And you know, we sold our

2368
02:22:56,400 --> 02:22:59,840
Speaker 3: ownership position and bought this house and the one in

2369
02:23:00,080 --> 02:23:00,920
Speaker 3: Saint John.

2370
02:23:01,680 --> 02:23:03,119
Speaker 2: And where's the third house?

2371
02:23:04,080 --> 02:23:05,640
Speaker 3: I have a little apartment in the city.

2372
02:23:06,760 --> 02:23:11,040
Speaker 2: And then you're off of that show? Do you say

2373
02:23:11,760 --> 02:23:12,920
Speaker 2: you're done? What do you do?

2374
02:23:16,560 --> 02:23:21,720
Speaker 3: Oh? I wrote my book? Okay, oh no, Because a

2375
02:23:21,760 --> 02:23:24,520
Speaker 3: girl that I knew back then had become a literary agent.

2376
02:23:24,560 --> 02:23:26,200
Speaker 3: I had lunch with her and she said, you're not

2377
02:23:26,280 --> 02:23:29,680
Speaker 3: doing anything. This is what you should do. She worked

2378
02:23:29,680 --> 02:23:32,400
Speaker 3: at Rolling Stone in the office then in the old days.

2379
02:23:32,920 --> 02:23:36,240
Speaker 3: So she said you know, and so that's what happened.

2380
02:23:36,280 --> 02:23:39,240
Speaker 3: I wrote the book, and I loved the book, and

2381
02:23:39,320 --> 02:23:43,039
Speaker 3: I felt just about it what you felt about So

2382
02:23:43,120 --> 02:23:45,640
Speaker 3: it was so wonderful to read what you had written.

2383
02:23:46,080 --> 02:23:47,360
Speaker 3: It meant everything to me.

2384
02:23:48,040 --> 02:23:51,279
Speaker 2: Well, the funny thing about it is I get anxious

2385
02:23:51,320 --> 02:23:56,440
Speaker 2: before doing these, and occasionally it involves a book that

2386
02:23:56,520 --> 02:24:00,360
Speaker 2: I've read month, two months, three months before, and I

2387
02:24:00,480 --> 02:24:02,560
Speaker 2: have to ski, you know, I skim the book just

2388
02:24:02,600 --> 02:24:05,360
Speaker 2: out of anxiety. And I was thinking about it with

2389
02:24:05,440 --> 02:24:08,120
Speaker 2: your book, and I said, I don't I remember everything

2390
02:24:08,120 --> 02:24:10,720
Speaker 2: in the book like it really had that much impact

2391
02:24:10,800 --> 02:24:16,320
Speaker 2: upon me. And there was similar sensibility, similar alienation. I

2392
02:24:16,360 --> 02:24:19,280
Speaker 2: don't have children this week go on and on forever.

2393
02:24:20,000 --> 02:24:23,279
Speaker 2: But okay, let's stay with the Sopranos for a minute.

2394
02:24:23,440 --> 02:24:26,360
Speaker 2: You know, we've just had the strike, et cetera. When

2395
02:24:26,360 --> 02:24:30,080
Speaker 2: you do something that's network television, there's all kinds of

2396
02:24:30,160 --> 02:24:34,920
Speaker 2: residuals involved. At this point with something like HBO and

2397
02:24:34,920 --> 02:24:38,240
Speaker 2: the Sopranos, is there any ongoing compensation?

2398
02:24:39,000 --> 02:24:44,640
Speaker 3: Oh sure, yeah, yeah, just those green envelopes come and

2399
02:24:44,879 --> 02:24:51,039
Speaker 3: just cheers you right up. You know, sure, you know,

2400
02:24:51,120 --> 02:24:56,080
Speaker 3: we get residuals, We got foreign sales, We've got royalties. Royalty,

2401
02:24:56,240 --> 02:24:58,879
Speaker 3: oh you know, royalties. You know, we make a living

2402
02:24:58,959 --> 02:25:03,560
Speaker 3: this way. You know, it keeps it keeps this thing going.

2403
02:25:04,760 --> 02:25:07,560
Speaker 3: As much says, it costs a lot of money to

2404
02:25:07,600 --> 02:25:11,240
Speaker 3: have money, you know. So yeah, we have these houses.

2405
02:25:11,320 --> 02:25:17,200
Speaker 3: They're not you know, they're they're just they're they're wonderful

2406
02:25:17,280 --> 02:25:21,200
Speaker 3: each they're wonderful places. All three of them were wonderful.

2407
02:25:22,080 --> 02:25:25,000
Speaker 3: So yeah, but now you know, I'm miserable because I'm

2408
02:25:25,040 --> 02:25:25,640
Speaker 3: not working.

2409
02:25:25,720 --> 02:25:30,000
Speaker 2: So there you go, and there's any plans.

2410
02:25:29,560 --> 02:25:32,680
Speaker 3: To work, Well, you got me thinking about it again.

2411
02:25:35,640 --> 02:25:39,520
Speaker 3: You know, I got to you know, people have wanted

2412
02:25:39,560 --> 02:25:42,039
Speaker 3: to adapt the book into some kind of TV or

2413
02:25:42,560 --> 02:25:46,000
Speaker 3: dramatic form. And somebody gave me a call about it

2414
02:25:46,000 --> 02:25:48,600
Speaker 3: from your what you wrote, but I don't see it.

2415
02:25:49,760 --> 02:25:50,600
Speaker 2: I don't see it either.

2416
02:25:51,280 --> 02:25:54,320
Speaker 3: Oh good, oh good, thank you, because I you know,

2417
02:25:54,400 --> 02:25:58,240
Speaker 3: if somebody tried and it was so stupid, it was this.

2418
02:25:58,400 --> 02:26:00,720
Speaker 3: I mean, she's she's a wonderful girl. Who who tried?

2419
02:26:01,000 --> 02:26:04,879
Speaker 3: But you know she'd have this writer and basically writers

2420
02:26:04,959 --> 02:26:09,120
Speaker 3: like running around with a notepad or recording device. There's

2421
02:26:09,160 --> 02:26:12,199
Speaker 3: nothing dramatic there. It's not like you know, this person

2422
02:26:12,240 --> 02:26:17,959
Speaker 3: wanted me to watch Daisy Jones and the six do

2423
02:26:18,080 --> 02:26:21,720
Speaker 3: something like that. Well, that'd be fine, but that's you know,

2424
02:26:21,800 --> 02:26:25,920
Speaker 3: that's got the advantage of having performance, you know, music

2425
02:26:26,040 --> 02:26:28,360
Speaker 3: in it. So no matter what you think of it,

2426
02:26:28,440 --> 02:26:29,800
Speaker 3: at least it had something.

2427
02:26:31,240 --> 02:26:35,879
Speaker 2: Okay, this is a tough question because it veers on sexism,

2428
02:26:35,879 --> 02:26:39,880
Speaker 2: and I will be criticized. But what about thinking about

2429
02:26:39,959 --> 02:26:43,480
Speaker 2: having children something you ever wanted, something you missed, something

2430
02:26:43,520 --> 02:26:44,400
Speaker 2: you never wanted.

2431
02:26:45,720 --> 02:26:48,680
Speaker 3: My strength tried to get me to confront this when

2432
02:26:48,720 --> 02:26:51,320
Speaker 3: I was forty, and I just couldn't do it. I

2433
02:26:51,360 --> 02:26:56,160
Speaker 3: just couldn't confront it. Even I'm sorry, I don't have children.

2434
02:26:56,200 --> 02:26:59,520
Speaker 3: I have a niece and nephew who fulfilled that for

2435
02:26:59,680 --> 02:27:02,320
Speaker 3: me and have children of their own, so I get

2436
02:27:02,360 --> 02:27:05,959
Speaker 3: all the pleasure of that. I don't know who. Somebody

2437
02:27:06,040 --> 02:27:07,800
Speaker 3: was saying they don't know who's going to take care

2438
02:27:07,840 --> 02:27:10,800
Speaker 3: of them when they're old. I don't really care, you

2439
02:27:10,840 --> 02:27:15,640
Speaker 3: know about that. So it's just I'm sorry I didn't.

2440
02:27:15,920 --> 02:27:18,560
Speaker 3: You know, people really seem to go nuts over it

2441
02:27:18,600 --> 02:27:19,080
Speaker 3: and love it.

2442
02:27:19,720 --> 02:27:19,920
Speaker 2: You know.

2443
02:27:20,440 --> 02:27:24,000
Speaker 3: I saw John Legend on Voice last night, and you

2444
02:27:24,040 --> 02:27:27,600
Speaker 3: know he said he never cried much until he had children,

2445
02:27:28,160 --> 02:27:31,080
Speaker 3: you know, because there's so much love there, and I'm

2446
02:27:31,120 --> 02:27:34,120
Speaker 3: sorry I missed that. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I

2447
02:27:34,160 --> 02:27:35,480
Speaker 3: wish Yeah, I regret.

2448
02:27:36,640 --> 02:27:40,720
Speaker 2: Are you a big consumer of films or television at

2449
02:27:40,720 --> 02:27:41,480
Speaker 2: this point?

2450
02:27:43,440 --> 02:27:49,240
Speaker 3: I watched The Voice. I've watched The Voice. I like

2451
02:27:49,320 --> 02:27:52,480
Speaker 3: the I like to see those singers. I just don't,

2452
02:27:53,040 --> 02:27:55,000
Speaker 3: you know. And you'd think I'd get sick of it,

2453
02:27:55,080 --> 02:27:57,840
Speaker 3: but I just don't. I love the I love the coaches.

2454
02:27:58,120 --> 02:28:01,000
Speaker 3: I love how they coach. It's like really watching a

2455
02:28:01,040 --> 02:28:03,840
Speaker 3: creative process. I really enjoyed. There was this other show

2456
02:28:03,879 --> 02:28:07,320
Speaker 3: about people would come and pitch their songs. I loved

2457
02:28:07,360 --> 02:28:09,560
Speaker 3: that show. I wish they would come and do it again.

2458
02:28:09,879 --> 02:28:13,680
Speaker 3: It was another reality show. I forget the name of it.

2459
02:28:14,920 --> 02:28:20,000
Speaker 2: But that's kind of funny because that's not a show

2460
02:28:20,080 --> 02:28:20,520
Speaker 2: you made.

2461
02:28:22,560 --> 02:28:26,320
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't watch Blue Blood's either, you know, I just.

2462
02:28:27,879 --> 02:28:30,720
Speaker 2: You know it's funny. Mary kay Place told me the

2463
02:28:30,760 --> 02:28:33,520
Speaker 2: same thing. She watches The Voice, too, So maybe there's

2464
02:28:33,560 --> 02:28:34,840
Speaker 2: some element there.

2465
02:28:35,200 --> 02:28:39,520
Speaker 3: Oh I knew I liked that woman. Yeah, I do

2466
02:28:39,560 --> 02:28:43,120
Speaker 3: love it. But I don't think I want to write

2467
02:28:43,120 --> 02:28:46,160
Speaker 3: another television show. I don't know what to do. Frankly,

2468
02:28:46,360 --> 02:28:49,800
Speaker 3: I don't. It's horrible. Actually, these periods in my life.

2469
02:28:50,120 --> 02:28:53,680
Speaker 3: I mean I've had follow periods, but this one takes long,

2470
02:28:54,320 --> 02:28:54,879
Speaker 3: long one.

2471
02:28:55,040 --> 02:28:56,560
Speaker 2: So what eats up your time?

2472
02:29:00,160 --> 02:29:03,200
Speaker 3: Well, we have a country house now, so I've become

2473
02:29:04,280 --> 02:29:07,800
Speaker 3: you know, in the summertime, I did a lot of weading.

2474
02:29:08,080 --> 02:29:11,680
Speaker 3: That's w E E D I en G. The rest

2475
02:29:11,760 --> 02:29:17,840
Speaker 3: is reading, watching shitty television and no just reading weading,

2476
02:29:20,320 --> 02:29:22,720
Speaker 3: just nothing.

2477
02:29:24,000 --> 02:29:26,160
Speaker 2: What do you read right now?

2478
02:29:26,200 --> 02:29:32,039
Speaker 3: I'm into David Sedaris, who's a great companion, and I

2479
02:29:32,080 --> 02:29:35,640
Speaker 3: read a wonderful novel recently. I don't read fiction anymore much.

2480
02:29:36,640 --> 02:29:42,480
Speaker 3: I just don't care about it. So it depends. I

2481
02:29:42,520 --> 02:29:47,360
Speaker 3: was reading the Bokov's memoir, you know, I picked that up.

2482
02:29:47,440 --> 02:29:51,400
Speaker 3: I had a library library full of books here that

2483
02:29:51,440 --> 02:29:53,800
Speaker 3: I haven't read, so I'll just pick one up and

2484
02:29:53,879 --> 02:29:55,080
Speaker 3: read it. Whatever it is.

2485
02:29:55,920 --> 02:29:59,320
Speaker 2: Now, you have the three houses, you have a husband,

2486
02:30:00,200 --> 02:30:03,720
Speaker 2: We had you know, COVID, which made everything different. But

2487
02:30:03,840 --> 02:30:10,760
Speaker 2: how social are you at this point in your life.

2488
02:30:11,800 --> 02:30:14,760
Speaker 3: Compared to watch? Compared to you, I don't know.

2489
02:30:15,200 --> 02:30:17,320
Speaker 2: I mean, are you the type of person who's emailing

2490
02:30:17,360 --> 02:30:19,600
Speaker 2: and calling friends all the time going out?

2491
02:30:19,879 --> 02:30:23,280
Speaker 3: Are you more of a homebody? And it's like I'm

2492
02:30:23,280 --> 02:30:27,680
Speaker 3: a homebody. We have a lot of friends when we

2493
02:30:27,720 --> 02:30:29,320
Speaker 3: go to the city. We can't go to the city

2494
02:30:29,400 --> 02:30:32,080
Speaker 3: much because our dog is seventeen and a half plus,

2495
02:30:32,520 --> 02:30:34,800
Speaker 3: so we really are stuck here in the country with him,

2496
02:30:34,959 --> 02:30:38,000
Speaker 3: cleaning up after him and taking care of him, and

2497
02:30:38,040 --> 02:30:40,160
Speaker 3: we can't travel. We can't go to Paris, we can't

2498
02:30:40,160 --> 02:30:42,320
Speaker 3: do any of that stuff. So we're just basically here

2499
02:30:42,320 --> 02:30:45,640
Speaker 3: on Shelter Island. We have really good friends here that

2500
02:30:45,680 --> 02:30:48,680
Speaker 3: we've made. We bought the house right before COVID, and

2501
02:30:48,760 --> 02:30:52,040
Speaker 3: right we bought the house in Saint John right before COVID.

2502
02:30:52,040 --> 02:30:55,240
Speaker 3: It's just lucked out that way, so we spent COVID

2503
02:30:55,360 --> 02:30:59,360
Speaker 3: in both places, which was perfect because and you know, yeah,

2504
02:30:59,400 --> 02:31:03,440
Speaker 3: so we've just been out here in the country and

2505
02:31:03,520 --> 02:31:05,320
Speaker 3: I sold the place in the city and got a

2506
02:31:05,360 --> 02:31:07,600
Speaker 3: smaller place in the city. But we can't go there

2507
02:31:07,640 --> 02:31:11,080
Speaker 3: because it's the dog. Can't be there. It's too hard

2508
02:31:11,080 --> 02:31:12,039
Speaker 3: to have him there.

2509
02:31:12,240 --> 02:31:14,560
Speaker 2: One point of cleanup. And it's funny we're talking about

2510
02:31:14,560 --> 02:31:18,920
Speaker 2: the dog. You sold your interest in Blue Bloods. Yeah,

2511
02:31:18,959 --> 02:31:21,840
Speaker 2: this is a big thing in the music business. You

2512
02:31:21,959 --> 02:31:25,640
Speaker 2: sold your interest. Did you sell it back to the

2513
02:31:25,800 --> 02:31:27,400
Speaker 2: owners or to a party?

2514
02:31:28,000 --> 02:31:29,280
Speaker 3: No owners?

2515
02:31:30,080 --> 02:31:30,360
Speaker 2: Was it?

2516
02:31:31,080 --> 02:31:36,200
Speaker 3: God? Yeah, I think with CBS, right. I think they

2517
02:31:36,240 --> 02:31:40,840
Speaker 3: came to somebody at ICM with an offer. We don't

2518
02:31:40,879 --> 02:31:44,320
Speaker 3: have children, and so you know, it would have been

2519
02:31:44,360 --> 02:31:47,880
Speaker 3: a very valuable thing to you know, it's a lot

2520
02:31:47,879 --> 02:31:51,959
Speaker 3: of points less because I got fired after the first year.

2521
02:31:52,320 --> 02:31:54,879
Speaker 3: We would have a few more if I hadn't, but

2522
02:31:55,680 --> 02:31:59,000
Speaker 3: a significant amount and if it would have been a

2523
02:31:59,000 --> 02:32:04,440
Speaker 3: great thing to leave. But we just decided to take

2524
02:32:04,480 --> 02:32:06,760
Speaker 3: the money. And it's good we did because of COVID,

2525
02:32:07,360 --> 02:32:10,440
Speaker 3: because if COVID had happened, the networks, you know, they

2526
02:32:10,480 --> 02:32:14,120
Speaker 3: would have said, like they would have said, oh, we're

2527
02:32:14,160 --> 02:32:16,240
Speaker 3: not making any money now, there's no money. They wouldn't

2528
02:32:16,280 --> 02:32:18,880
Speaker 3: even give you the dribs and drags that they had

2529
02:32:18,920 --> 02:32:22,039
Speaker 3: to start giving us. So this was enough money so

2530
02:32:22,120 --> 02:32:25,360
Speaker 3: that we could change that would be meaningful. In other words,

2531
02:32:25,440 --> 02:32:27,800
Speaker 3: we could buy a summer house, which was meant to be,

2532
02:32:28,480 --> 02:32:30,960
Speaker 3: and we could buy the place we'd been renting for years,

2533
02:32:30,959 --> 02:32:34,879
Speaker 3: a very modest house in Saint John, but beautiful. You know,

2534
02:32:34,920 --> 02:32:37,959
Speaker 3: we're renting it. And so it just happened that people

2535
02:32:38,040 --> 02:32:41,200
Speaker 3: who were we rented it from, we're selling it. So

2536
02:32:41,240 --> 02:32:43,959
Speaker 3: we bought it. You know, it's nothing, it's you know,

2537
02:32:44,000 --> 02:32:47,840
Speaker 3: it's not like a manner in Scotland or something. You know,

2538
02:32:48,400 --> 02:32:51,240
Speaker 3: none of it is very grand, but it's just pretty great,

2539
02:32:51,520 --> 02:32:54,480
Speaker 3: you know. But still you have I've been painting, you know,

2540
02:32:54,560 --> 02:33:00,359
Speaker 3: I started life as a kind of artist. So I've

2541
02:33:00,400 --> 02:33:03,560
Speaker 3: been painting. So I have a painting studio. But this

2542
02:33:03,640 --> 02:33:07,360
Speaker 3: summer I came down with a case of cancer. So

2543
02:33:07,440 --> 02:33:15,959
Speaker 3: I really spent August and September dealing with that. So

2544
02:33:16,360 --> 02:33:18,800
Speaker 3: that was a surprise. You know, I'm seventy eight years old,

2545
02:33:19,240 --> 02:33:21,400
Speaker 3: so there was no reason that I would for me

2546
02:33:21,520 --> 02:33:23,680
Speaker 3: to think that I would escape this kind of thing.

2547
02:33:24,600 --> 02:33:27,560
Speaker 3: But they found, quite by accident, a small leision on

2548
02:33:27,600 --> 02:33:31,720
Speaker 3: my lung, in my lung which turned out after a

2549
02:33:31,760 --> 02:33:36,080
Speaker 3: biopsy to be cancer. I have a wonderful doctor at

2550
02:33:36,879 --> 02:33:41,920
Speaker 3: Mount Sinai, and he went in there and took it out.

2551
02:33:42,160 --> 02:33:45,160
Speaker 3: But still it was major surgery. And I had never

2552
02:33:45,400 --> 02:33:49,039
Speaker 3: had an experience like this, and so I look at myself.

2553
02:33:49,080 --> 02:33:51,960
Speaker 3: I'm so pale. I couldn't swim or anything, do you

2554
02:33:51,959 --> 02:33:54,520
Speaker 3: know what I mean. It really wiped me out. So

2555
02:33:54,560 --> 02:34:00,400
Speaker 3: I did paint. I'm not quite back, so I may

2556
02:34:00,440 --> 02:34:03,240
Speaker 3: paint again. I may. I have a studio here with

2557
02:34:03,480 --> 02:34:05,440
Speaker 3: you know, the paints and the easel in it. I

2558
02:34:05,520 --> 02:34:09,240
Speaker 3: might put right, I moved some of the furniture from

2559
02:34:09,240 --> 02:34:12,440
Speaker 3: New York City, and I might get a couch and

2560
02:34:12,760 --> 02:34:15,720
Speaker 3: go up there with my computer, you know, write something.

2561
02:34:15,760 --> 02:34:16,959
Speaker 3: But I just don't know what to write.

2562
02:34:17,000 --> 02:34:17,200
Speaker 2: Get.

2563
02:34:17,360 --> 02:34:19,160
Speaker 3: I was going to write about my nose job, but

2564
02:34:20,120 --> 02:34:23,199
Speaker 3: just said so dreadful. I just.

2565
02:34:24,879 --> 02:34:28,200
Speaker 2: You know, I can't talk about what you feel internally.

2566
02:34:29,200 --> 02:34:31,279
Speaker 2: But I have not read that book.

2567
02:34:31,920 --> 02:34:35,280
Speaker 3: Which book, the nose job book. You know, a friend

2568
02:34:35,320 --> 02:34:39,320
Speaker 3: out here is a psychoanalyst and he, you know, he

2569
02:34:39,400 --> 02:34:42,840
Speaker 3: has these patients, women you know, have had, has a

2570
02:34:42,840 --> 02:34:45,720
Speaker 3: couple of them, and they come to him and obviously

2571
02:34:45,840 --> 02:34:49,280
Speaker 3: they have nose jobs. But he can't b broach the subject.

2572
02:34:49,560 --> 02:34:52,160
Speaker 3: But they don't bring it up. So it is like

2573
02:34:52,240 --> 02:34:58,360
Speaker 3: this weird subject. And I wrote my thesis actually at

2574
02:34:58,400 --> 02:35:03,000
Speaker 3: IOWA is titled straight Nose, and it was a story

2575
02:35:03,040 --> 02:35:07,680
Speaker 3: about my nose job. But it's so self pitying and yucky.

2576
02:35:08,320 --> 02:35:09,920
Speaker 3: I just don't know how to do it.

2577
02:35:10,000 --> 02:35:11,680
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not telling you what to do, and

2578
02:35:11,760 --> 02:35:12,840
Speaker 2: I can't read about.

2579
02:35:12,600 --> 02:35:15,480
Speaker 3: But I wish you would, would you could.

2580
02:35:15,280 --> 02:35:17,520
Speaker 2: You well believe me, I got that instinct. I can

2581
02:35:17,520 --> 02:35:20,680
Speaker 2: tell you what to do all day long. But the

2582
02:35:20,879 --> 02:35:25,440
Speaker 2: point is, people have plastics. You know, it's one thing

2583
02:35:25,480 --> 02:35:27,760
Speaker 2: if you're in an accident or something. People who have

2584
02:35:27,800 --> 02:35:34,080
Speaker 2: elective surgery, cosmetic surgery, they are always hourly positive about it.

2585
02:35:34,400 --> 02:35:38,600
Speaker 2: Always they say they gave them confidence, the results were good.

2586
02:35:39,120 --> 02:35:41,720
Speaker 2: You never you might hear someone say I got a

2587
02:35:41,760 --> 02:35:44,800
Speaker 2: bad nose job, bad boob job, whatever, you do. Hear

2588
02:35:44,840 --> 02:35:48,800
Speaker 2: those stories, but everyone says how great it is. Not

2589
02:35:48,920 --> 02:35:51,040
Speaker 2: to mention the fact that people get older and then

2590
02:35:51,120 --> 02:35:53,280
Speaker 2: they go on a run of plastic surgery, just like

2591
02:35:53,320 --> 02:35:57,760
Speaker 2: people go on a run of tattoos. So the questions

2592
02:35:57,800 --> 02:36:02,320
Speaker 2: you raise have never been raised in public, you know.

2593
02:36:02,520 --> 02:36:07,000
Speaker 2: So for me, that's a fascinating subject. Having had family

2594
02:36:07,080 --> 02:36:10,879
Speaker 2: members who got those jobs. Believe me, I've heard their story.

2595
02:36:11,200 --> 02:36:15,480
Speaker 2: They have never expressed any regret. If anything, they tell

2596
02:36:15,520 --> 02:36:16,480
Speaker 2: other people to get one.

2597
02:36:16,680 --> 02:36:18,879
Speaker 3: Maybe they're mentally healthy human beings.

2598
02:36:19,280 --> 02:36:20,760
Speaker 2: Nobody's mentally healthy.

2599
02:36:20,800 --> 02:36:22,400
Speaker 3: Do you have to think of that? No, I don't know.

2600
02:36:23,080 --> 02:36:27,840
Speaker 3: If I had a daughter and I have counsels, one

2601
02:36:28,000 --> 02:36:31,840
Speaker 3: person specifically, do not want she got a nose job,

2602
02:36:31,879 --> 02:36:35,480
Speaker 3: and now she's so ordinary, you know, and she was

2603
02:36:35,520 --> 02:36:38,040
Speaker 3: so young when she got it. She's going off to college.

2604
02:36:38,160 --> 02:36:41,600
Speaker 3: You know, she wanted to be pretty. And you know

2605
02:36:43,280 --> 02:36:46,360
Speaker 3: you look at like Piedro Amaldebobar. However, you say it

2606
02:36:46,400 --> 02:36:50,520
Speaker 3: that woman in the Spanish movies with this sernazola, you

2607
02:36:50,600 --> 02:36:52,160
Speaker 3: know that's your face.

2608
02:36:53,000 --> 02:36:57,280
Speaker 2: How about the woman in Fouda. First season of Fouda?

2609
02:36:57,920 --> 02:36:58,600
Speaker 3: Can I watch that?

2610
02:37:00,080 --> 02:37:02,160
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know what kind of show you like?

2611
02:37:02,720 --> 02:37:02,879
Speaker 3: Good?

2612
02:37:03,200 --> 02:37:06,560
Speaker 2: Just Fauta is great. It's an action show, very visceral,

2613
02:37:06,920 --> 02:37:10,600
Speaker 2: and every season is good. If I'm talking about the

2614
02:37:10,640 --> 02:37:16,960
Speaker 2: best shows on streaming television, you know you're talking about

2615
02:37:17,000 --> 02:37:19,920
Speaker 2: Happy Valley, but the latest season wasn't as good as

2616
02:37:19,920 --> 02:37:22,840
Speaker 2: the early stuff. You're talking about the French show The

2617
02:37:23,000 --> 02:37:28,280
Speaker 2: Bureau the Fota is great, but later than that. And

2618
02:37:28,879 --> 02:37:31,560
Speaker 2: you know, the conventional wisdom is the Danes in these

2619
02:37:31,640 --> 02:37:34,080
Speaker 2: relas make the best television, and I would pretty much

2620
02:37:34,080 --> 02:37:34,720
Speaker 2: agree with that.

2621
02:37:35,120 --> 02:37:37,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, we went to Copenhagen and did a show

2622
02:37:39,320 --> 02:37:41,720
Speaker 3: with somebody there. You know, we tried to do the

2623
02:37:41,720 --> 02:37:44,480
Speaker 3: American version, so we had that deal. We did do that,

2624
02:37:45,080 --> 02:37:47,840
Speaker 3: and you know, they support their artists over there. All

2625
02:37:47,920 --> 02:37:52,920
Speaker 3: of the artists over there want to come to La experience.

2626
02:37:53,720 --> 02:37:57,680
Speaker 2: You know, there's this phenomenal show on Netflix. They just

2627
02:37:57,680 --> 02:38:01,040
Speaker 2: put out a prequel. Did you watch under Cover on Netflix?

2628
02:38:01,320 --> 02:38:03,320
Speaker 3: Now? Should I see? You know?

2629
02:38:03,440 --> 02:38:06,400
Speaker 2: As I say, this is a little difficult because it

2630
02:38:06,560 --> 02:38:11,280
Speaker 2: veers on your past history in that it is a

2631
02:38:11,400 --> 02:38:19,080
Speaker 2: dope dealer. It's a Belgian show, Belgian Dutch collaboration. But

2632
02:38:19,400 --> 02:38:26,160
Speaker 2: the lead actor is unique. I mean Tony Soprano evidenced

2633
02:38:26,520 --> 02:38:29,920
Speaker 2: and intelligence. This guy does not. This guy streetsmart It's

2634
02:38:30,000 --> 02:38:34,039
Speaker 2: far from dumb, and it's slow and it's tense, whereas

2635
02:38:34,040 --> 02:38:37,959
Speaker 2: the Soprano's more action. So you start by watching Undercover.

2636
02:38:38,400 --> 02:38:42,280
Speaker 2: There are three seasons of Undercover, Okay, Then there is

2637
02:38:42,360 --> 02:38:48,119
Speaker 2: a prequel movie called Ferry fe r r y, then

2638
02:38:48,680 --> 02:38:51,680
Speaker 2: two weeks ago or you know, whenever it's people listen

2639
02:38:51,720 --> 02:38:54,920
Speaker 2: to this. At the beginning of November, they launched a

2640
02:38:54,959 --> 02:38:58,959
Speaker 2: prequel series called Ferry The Series. But it turns me

2641
02:38:59,120 --> 02:39:03,640
Speaker 2: on is in Hens City anxiety. You rarely get that

2642
02:39:04,640 --> 02:39:09,840
Speaker 2: in television. Have you seen the Bureau? No, the Bureau,

2643
02:39:10,480 --> 02:39:13,119
Speaker 2: the Bureau. I mean you got to pay for some channel,

2644
02:39:13,160 --> 02:39:15,720
Speaker 2: I forget. No, we got a lot of stuff, but

2645
02:39:15,840 --> 02:39:17,720
Speaker 2: this is one of those unique channels. I don't know

2646
02:39:17,760 --> 02:39:21,440
Speaker 2: whether it's Mega Hurtz or Sundance now or something. But

2647
02:39:22,160 --> 02:39:27,120
Speaker 2: and this is a legendary show. But at times it's quiet.

2648
02:39:27,240 --> 02:39:31,400
Speaker 2: It's so intense. And in this latest series of Ferry,

2649
02:39:31,480 --> 02:39:34,480
Speaker 2: there are a couple of episodes that are so intense

2650
02:39:35,560 --> 02:39:38,920
Speaker 2: and they don't do the obvious thing. It's it's really good.

2651
02:39:39,400 --> 02:39:42,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I've written all this down.

2652
02:39:42,840 --> 02:39:45,039
Speaker 2: You know, I could go on and on streaming television.

2653
02:39:45,080 --> 02:39:49,879
Speaker 2: I do not find film satisfying anymore. It's, you know, forget.

2654
02:39:50,040 --> 02:39:52,640
Speaker 3: The do what do you watch? I just watching my

2655
02:39:52,720 --> 02:39:56,440
Speaker 3: gizmo in bed. Mitch. Mitch has a big TV down here,

2656
02:39:56,480 --> 02:39:57,360
Speaker 3: but I do it.

2657
02:39:57,560 --> 02:40:02,760
Speaker 2: Okay, you know, just you know, we got a Samsung

2658
02:40:02,879 --> 02:40:06,240
Speaker 2: television in two thousand and seven that was astoundingly good.

2659
02:40:07,200 --> 02:40:09,760
Speaker 2: And four years ago my girlfriend, who watches a lot

2660
02:40:09,760 --> 02:40:12,680
Speaker 2: of televisions, I want to get a new TV, said no,

2661
02:40:12,840 --> 02:40:15,879
Speaker 2: this TV is so good. Blah blah blah blah blah blah.

2662
02:40:16,760 --> 02:40:20,119
Speaker 2: We got this TV that is the standard, the one

2663
02:40:20,120 --> 02:40:27,119
Speaker 2: that everybody has at Hollywood. This lgo led mind blowing, wow,

2664
02:40:27,200 --> 02:40:27,879
Speaker 2: mind blowing.

2665
02:40:28,480 --> 02:40:31,880
Speaker 3: It's like not in a week goes by. When Mitch

2666
02:40:32,040 --> 02:40:35,280
Speaker 3: just says it wants a new TV, It's like, get it.

2667
02:40:35,640 --> 02:40:39,840
Speaker 2: Quest Now there's a Sony. You know, now there's a

2668
02:40:40,840 --> 02:40:42,920
Speaker 2: it used to be forever that was the standard and

2669
02:40:42,920 --> 02:40:45,560
Speaker 2: that's what everybody has. There's a competitive Sony now. But

2670
02:40:45,600 --> 02:40:49,440
Speaker 2: the differences are you know, when you watch in four K,

2671
02:40:50,480 --> 02:40:53,240
Speaker 2: which is only you know, a six percent difference, it's

2672
02:40:53,280 --> 02:40:55,920
Speaker 2: just mind blowing. I mean, as I say, I didn't

2673
02:40:55,920 --> 02:40:59,359
Speaker 2: want a new TV. You know, it's under two thousand

2674
02:40:59,360 --> 02:41:01,640
Speaker 2: dollars if you want sixty five or less if you

2675
02:41:01,640 --> 02:41:03,120
Speaker 2: want to. It's like anything. When you go to like

2676
02:41:03,160 --> 02:41:05,720
Speaker 2: seventy five, you pay an extra grand, but of course

2677
02:41:05,800 --> 02:41:08,240
Speaker 2: get the biggest size you can. I watch a certain

2678
02:41:08,240 --> 02:41:10,400
Speaker 2: amount of stuff on the iPad too. I find it

2679
02:41:10,600 --> 02:41:16,600
Speaker 2: very intimate. But then you know, these screens are big

2680
02:41:16,680 --> 02:41:19,680
Speaker 2: enough that it's like watching the movie. That's all it is.

2681
02:41:20,440 --> 02:41:22,879
Speaker 2: But I'm hearing from people all day long. There's so

2682
02:41:23,000 --> 02:41:25,760
Speaker 2: many opportunities. But to sit in front of the flat

2683
02:41:25,800 --> 02:41:28,360
Speaker 2: screen and get this is another thing makes me crazy.

2684
02:41:28,360 --> 02:41:31,400
Speaker 2: The week by week stuff. It's just fucking insane to

2685
02:41:31,680 --> 02:41:34,640
Speaker 2: marinate in a series. I just probably the thing I

2686
02:41:34,720 --> 02:41:36,360
Speaker 2: like to do most other than go skiing.

2687
02:41:39,400 --> 02:41:41,560
Speaker 3: Skiing.

2688
02:41:41,560 --> 02:41:44,440
Speaker 2: It is a separate conversation, Robin, I think it is.

2689
02:41:45,800 --> 02:41:47,600
Speaker 3: You're not gonna get very far talking.

2690
02:41:48,640 --> 02:41:52,520
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm gonna let the audience off. The look so

2691
02:41:52,840 --> 02:41:54,480
Speaker 2: Rob and I want to thank you so much for

2692
02:41:54,520 --> 02:41:56,760
Speaker 2: taking your time to talk to me and my audience.

2693
02:41:57,160 --> 02:41:59,480
Speaker 3: Well, it's been really fun.

2694
02:42:01,280 --> 02:42:26,560
Speaker 2: Until next time. This is Bob left sids