Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wik Up Daily with
Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody once again recording live from
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Bunker. You know, it's been probably a little
Speaker 1: over a week, maybe two, since Dave Chappelle's stand up
Speaker 1: received considerable considerable backlash his special on Netflix, The Closer,
Speaker 1: which contained even in the media, they're referring to them
Speaker 1: as jokes at the expense of transgender people. But if
Speaker 1: you listen to democracy issue, you know that my co
Speaker 1: host Urey and I discussed this in a bit of
Speaker 1: detail last week, and I had the opportunity to bring
Speaker 1: on one of the former former trans employees at Netflix
Speaker 1: who recently made headlines because the media company decided to
Speaker 1: yes fire them. Be pagals Minor, will join us in
Speaker 1: a bit to talk about their experience at Netflix as
Speaker 1: a black trans person and to talk about just in
Speaker 1: general their experience in the world of tech folks. I
Speaker 1: am so excited to welcome to wok F Daily for
Speaker 1: the first time be pagals Miner, whose name you may
Speaker 1: have heard and know in affiliation with Netflix's current scandal.
Speaker 1: With regard to the fact that there has been considerable
Speaker 1: pushback on Dave Chappelle's special The Closer, and you have
Speaker 1: found yourself at somewhat of the center of that issue.
Speaker 1: But before we jump into where things are now, I
Speaker 1: want to talk about your experience at Netflix as a
Speaker 1: black trans person and what kind of environment and kind
Speaker 1: of culture has been present at Netflix that brings us
Speaker 1: into this present moment. Yes, you know, it's actually really interesting,
Speaker 1: and I think I said this a lot. I actually
Speaker 1: chose Netflix because I thought it was going to be
Speaker 1: one of the best possible experiences for me as a
Speaker 1: black trans person. So before I decided to join up Flix,
Speaker 1: there's a few things around my mind. Obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: I've worked in tech for a very long time, so
Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure I got great k But
Speaker 1: like you know, when I first, before I even started,
Speaker 1: I knew I wanted to have a child. I knew
Speaker 1: I was going to have gender confirming surge of surgery,
Speaker 1: and so Netflix checked the boxes from a benefits perspective.
Speaker 1: And then the manager who actually recruited me, one of
Speaker 1: the things I liked best about my experience with him
Speaker 1: was that he asked me, for instance, at our very
Speaker 1: first meeting, you know, what are your pronouns, and you know,
Speaker 1: I was like my pronounder days of theirs. And he
Speaker 1: also happened to invite me there on the same day
Speaker 1: as a black out of it. So he took me
Speaker 1: down to get a plate of food and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: sill tell you that food was real good. You know,
Speaker 1: black folks know how to eat. And I was just like,
Speaker 1: this is this is a very seamless recruiting experience. And then, obviously,
Speaker 1: just because I do my be diligence, I also asked
Speaker 1: to be introduced to people who had had my role,
Speaker 1: as well as other black at members and transfer members.
Speaker 1: So I did talk to a number of people before
Speaker 1: I started to figure out if it was going to
Speaker 1: be a very safe place for me. And I do
Speaker 1: think that overall, my experience Netflix was one of the
Speaker 1: best experience I've ever had professionally. You know, I felt
Speaker 1: much safer at Netflix than I typically felt anywhere else
Speaker 1: in my tech career, and I also hope that Netflix
Speaker 1: gets back to that experience. How long were you at Netflix?
Speaker 1: So how from from the moment of the of the
Speaker 1: good plate of food at the ERG to your I
Speaker 1: guess expulsion firing being let go? How long. How long
Speaker 1: have you been there? So I started in March twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: I was actually part of the first COVID cohort, so
Speaker 1: I would in the one day and the next day
Speaker 1: we're closed. But yes, I started March twenty twenty and
Speaker 1: my last day was October fourteen, so approximately one year
Speaker 1: and seven months. So you chose Netflix, like you're saying,
Speaker 1: because you felt safe, because you felt seen right as somebody,
Speaker 1: And you know, can you talk a bit too, because
Speaker 1: I'm part of I'm an advisor at an organization called
Speaker 1: Lesbians Who Tech and Allies. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that you know is spoken about often is the fact
Speaker 1: of how little diversity there still is in tech, how
Speaker 1: difficult it is for people that are from the LGBTQ
Speaker 1: community and those that are also black and brown folks
Speaker 1: to navigate a very broish culture, a culture that is
Speaker 1: not affirming in any way. And so the reason behind
Speaker 1: you choosing Netflix was because of their openness and just
Speaker 1: your experience overall. What was your experience overall in tech
Speaker 1: proper before you went to before you went to Netflix. Yeah,
Speaker 1: first of all, shout out to Lesbian's Who Tech. That's
Speaker 1: actually one of the first places I ever spoke at,
Speaker 1: and so it was a very foundational experience for me.
Speaker 1: But so this is the thing that's interesting. So one
Speaker 1: of the difficulties of working in tech is that I
Speaker 1: said it was safer than any other company I had
Speaker 1: worked at. And so there's a nuance there because just
Speaker 1: because it's safer doesn't mean that it's actually where it's
Speaker 1: supposed to be if you actually want a place that
Speaker 1: supports LGBTQ plus people, black people, Latin X people, Asian people. Also,
Speaker 1: from an international perspective, the company was rapidly expanding, and
Speaker 1: so if you think about it, the you can culture
Speaker 1: and so you can't stand for the United States and
Speaker 1: Canada drastically different than what's going on the LASTAMP, drastically
Speaker 1: different than what's going on in me a drastically different
Speaker 1: that was going on an apack. And I was uniquely
Speaker 1: situated to understand that complexity because I was the elected
Speaker 1: leader of both Black app which is one of the
Speaker 1: largest ergs at Netflix, and I also was a part
Speaker 1: of elected to be the co lead for trans Start,
Speaker 1: which is one of the smaller ARGs but a very
Speaker 1: powerful voice. And so what would happen is is that
Speaker 1: the people who are part of these ards would come
Speaker 1: to me constantly about their experiences, and so I would
Speaker 1: hear like everything from oh, this is the most heartwarming,
Speaker 1: best story ever, like your manager is so great, to
Speaker 1: holy crap, what is going on over there? Like why
Speaker 1: is this happening here? And so that's part of this
Speaker 1: conversation too. You know, everyone seems to think that this
Speaker 1: is about the special, but it's not about the special.
Speaker 1: It's about externally, what kind of content is being put
Speaker 1: out there, and how can we make sure that content
Speaker 1: represents diverse lives and specifically for trans start trans lives,
Speaker 1: And if you were to ask me from the black perspective,
Speaker 1: also black lives right, especially dark skinned lives right, darc
Speaker 1: and black people's lives. Like every single employee who was
Speaker 1: a diverse person, I bet that if you actually asked them,
Speaker 1: they would say racially, not really hitting the mark on
Speaker 1: some of our content, based on my experiences. So that's
Speaker 1: one part of it, and the second part of it
Speaker 1: is from an internal perspective, it's like, oh, like you know,
Speaker 1: Netflix is safer and better than pretty much every other
Speaker 1: company we've worked at. However, because of the Netflix culture
Speaker 1: values and concepts, like freedom and responsibility. Like freedom and
Speaker 1: responsibility essentially says that you're supposed to do what's best
Speaker 1: for Netflix, Like that's one hundred percent what it is.
Speaker 1: Is like, even if it's not like a being on
Speaker 1: the bean path type thing that someone else may do,
Speaker 1: you have the freedom and the responsibility to go out
Speaker 1: and do that thing because it's the best thing for Netflix. However,
Speaker 1: one of the things I noticed in my capacity is
Speaker 1: rd LEAD is that that concept was misapplied or applied
Speaker 1: differently depending on certain types of people. And in fact,
Speaker 1: one of the big arguments that I'd had with many people,
Speaker 1: when I'd brought up many times is is that it
Speaker 1: needs to be taken from freedom of responsibility to freedom
Speaker 1: and accountability. Right, you know, if someone if if a
Speaker 1: colleague does if one colleague does this and they're a
Speaker 1: white sister and or man, and another colleague does this
Speaker 1: and that as a black sister and or woman, and
Speaker 1: she gets fired because someone says that she used to
Speaker 1: use bad judgment even though she was working within the
Speaker 1: funeral responsibility a spectrum, and he does not, then there's
Speaker 1: a problem with the company. And so ultimately it's this
Speaker 1: internal battle saying if these cultural values are true, they
Speaker 1: need to be applied the same way to every single
Speaker 1: person who works in Netflix. And that makes sense, you know,
Speaker 1: And that makes sense because I think that I think
Speaker 1: across industries there is a reckoning that is happening right now. There,
Speaker 1: I believe, and I've had continue to have this conversation
Speaker 1: with different folks about there being a workers a worker's
Speaker 1: revolution that is happening right now. There are so many
Speaker 1: different strikes, different walkouts that are being experienced right now
Speaker 1: that large corporations are trying to figure out, well, what
Speaker 1: are what do we do? And you know, what do
Speaker 1: we do we treat people with dignity and respect? What
Speaker 1: do we do we pay people what they're worth? Like,
Speaker 1: there's a reason why this is collectively happening as we're
Speaker 1: still grappling with a pandemic that cost people a lot
Speaker 1: of not only their lives but also their livelihoods and
Speaker 1: people and having the time right whether privileged time or not,
Speaker 1: to recognize, you know, I'm not treated well, I'm not
Speaker 1: paid enough for this type of for this type of abuse,
Speaker 1: right um. And I think two particularly, we look to
Speaker 1: we look to big tech right as as the barometer
Speaker 1: by which different firms and companies should be acting. It
Speaker 1: was the open campus model came because across different industries
Speaker 1: because of big tech, like you know, being able to
Speaker 1: give your employees different types of benefits right that would
Speaker 1: help them feel valued and seen that came from Silicon
Speaker 1: Valley and this approach to how do we get the
Speaker 1: best talent right? And then recognizing well, when we say
Speaker 1: best talent, who were we actually talking about when the
Speaker 1: diversity is not is not there across the board. I
Speaker 1: want to switch gears now to the present moment that
Speaker 1: Netflix has itself in. When you first saw or heard
Speaker 1: about this Chappelle special, what were your initial reactions? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you know, a few days before the special came out,
Speaker 1: I got an email basically giving me a heads up
Speaker 1: saying the special is coming out, and I was just like, oh,
Speaker 1: is it like typical? You know? I was like, you know,
Speaker 1: I know it's going to be some stuff that people
Speaker 1: in my community won't like. And also, to be clear,
Speaker 1: so I identify as trans, non binary, but I also
Speaker 1: was socialized as a black woman, right, and so I
Speaker 1: have a lot of empathy and I get very upset
Speaker 1: when people disrespect black women. And so that's another reason
Speaker 1: for me for the special. I was like, is he
Speaker 1: also got talking about women in a derogatory manner like
Speaker 1: those those types of things, And they're like, yeah, kind of.
Speaker 1: And and then came out and the special came out
Speaker 1: on October fifth, and I didn't I didn't watch it
Speaker 1: at the time, but on October sixth, that's when we
Speaker 1: started seeing like the news reports and then you know
Speaker 1: about like the turf mentioning turf uh mis gendering people.
Speaker 1: And so then a bunch of us actually looked at
Speaker 1: the transcript because you know, one of the things about
Speaker 1: working in company like Netflix is you don't want to
Speaker 1: watch it, right because you're feeding into the algorithm, you're
Speaker 1: feeding into the number of views. And so we read
Speaker 1: the transcript and we were frankly horrified, right, I mean,
Speaker 1: he actually starts off with like something that's borderline anti semitic,
Speaker 1: and then you know, he just kind of continues to
Speaker 1: go and offend as many different groups as you possibly
Speaker 1: can and then spending like a large portion of it
Speaker 1: on transphobic content. Um and it might take was, wow,
Speaker 1: this is so much worse than I could have ever imagined, Like,
Speaker 1: you know, this is it's like if the last special
Speaker 1: was not good. This special is just like, Holy cow,
Speaker 1: how did we not think strategically about what this might
Speaker 1: actually do to the internal and external reputation of Netflix? Hm? Hm,
Speaker 1: you know there there has been so much commentary, uh
Speaker 1: since the special has aired. Um the cover that many
Speaker 1: people want to provide comedians because they are positioned, you know,
Speaker 1: in society as the jester for you know, for for
Speaker 1: for all intensive purposes, the jester that brings to light
Speaker 1: and saw finds the blow in many ways of a
Speaker 1: lot of societal ills, right, things that we will not
Speaker 1: talk about or that are uncomfortable to talk about. If
Speaker 1: you put a laugh track to it, it makes it
Speaker 1: easier to digest. What's your response to that argument around
Speaker 1: Chappelle's special? So, first and foremost, you know, I talk
Speaker 1: to other people who typically like his specials, and some
Speaker 1: of the things they said was this didn't feel as funny, right,
Speaker 1: And because that's why I hesitate to say it myself,
Speaker 1: because like, the last time I really liked a lot
Speaker 1: of Chappelle stuff was to Chappelle the first two seasons
Speaker 1: of Chappelle Show. So like, I'm not obviously the audience
Speaker 1: for his specials, but talking to other people, they were
Speaker 1: like I really struggled with it, Like I was just like,
Speaker 1: can you make some jokes? Like why are we still
Speaker 1: talking about you know, trans people, right? And these are
Speaker 1: people who like to laugh with him, and so for me,
Speaker 1: I just thought, I was like, how are you missing
Speaker 1: the point here? And also, as a part as a
Speaker 1: proud member of the LGBTQ plus community, I could go
Speaker 1: to a drag show every night and hear way more controversial,
Speaker 1: inappropriate things that will have me peeing in my seat
Speaker 1: because it's hilarious. Because we know that comedy can be great,
Speaker 1: especially when you know what you're talking about. Now, when
Speaker 1: you know what you're talking about, you can make something.
Speaker 1: So you can make something so terrible and difficult and
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and say it in such a way that I
Speaker 1: will laugh. At the same time, questioned myself like maybe
Speaker 1: why am I laughing? Yeah? You know, but it's like,
Speaker 1: but that's the thing, and that's where that's what we want, right,
Speaker 1: Like we want this comedy to be so amazingly done
Speaker 1: that we laugh, right. And so you know, one of
Speaker 1: the biggest parts of the special that I thought was
Speaker 1: missing is and and is that you know, I'm black
Speaker 1: and I'm trans. I'm black and I'm a lesbian. You know,
Speaker 1: the Special seems to have this supposition that the LGBTQ
Speaker 1: plus community is essentially adjacent to the white supremacist community,
Speaker 1: so LGBTQ plus means white and that trans people, and
Speaker 1: then separately that the civil rights movement the black people
Speaker 1: somehow are being hurt completely by the LGBTQ plus movement.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, well, in that case, then by the
Speaker 1: trans of property, I am being destroyed by both movements, right,
Speaker 1: because at no point does he acknowledge that people like
Speaker 1: me even exist, right, And I think that that's one
Speaker 1: of the things that also again when you know what
Speaker 1: you're talking about, perhaps that could have changed his entire
Speaker 1: set because he would have been like, well, but you know,
Speaker 1: I know, people like be exists. And because of that,
Speaker 1: I probably need to think about this more strategically, about
Speaker 1: the overarching point that I'm trying to make so that
Speaker 1: I can actually be funny and well said in this
Speaker 1: special versus completely ebracing this super the super small group
Speaker 1: of individuals who are harmed a much higher rate than
Speaker 1: virtually every other community in this country. Yeah, I you know,
Speaker 1: as as a black lesbian. I'm watching this special and
Speaker 1: there was one point where I was just like, so,
Speaker 1: do you not understand that people live at multiple intersections
Speaker 1: of identities? And you know, while you can be I
Speaker 1: will say that he was valid in saying that they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: can gay people be racist? But in his mind he
Speaker 1: was really thinking white gaze? Can white gaze be racist?
Speaker 1: But instead of he was making gay synonymous with whiteness,
Speaker 1: which is largely part of the problem. And what invisibilizes
Speaker 1: the rest of us, right is when is when that
Speaker 1: assumption is made from the jump? And you know, I
Speaker 1: what also stood out for me, and I want to
Speaker 1: ask you this was this this feeling that it was
Speaker 1: necessary to establish a hierarchy like the oppression the oppression Olympics, right,
Speaker 1: and to do it again without any nuance or understanding
Speaker 1: of those that live at the intersection of multiple communities.
Speaker 1: And so I'm like, of course, there's racism in the
Speaker 1: lgbt Q plus community. I have worked in this movement
Speaker 1: for well over a decade. I can tell you firsthand
Speaker 1: stories about like where the money comes from, and like
Speaker 1: who gets to decide what is important and who is
Speaker 1: important and when money drives up in one area. Why
Speaker 1: that is and who are some of the most transphobic
Speaker 1: people that I've come into interfacing with our other members
Speaker 1: of the LGB community that are some of the most
Speaker 1: transphobic people. And again, if you have a deep understanding,
Speaker 1: more so than the shallow puddle from which I believe
Speaker 1: he was operating from, then you would be able to
Speaker 1: have a lot more your jokes would be sharper, right exactly, exactly,
Speaker 1: like if nothing else, Like I would like to hang
Speaker 1: out with Dave Chappelle so that I could educate him,
Speaker 1: so that he really can make me laugh, right right,
Speaker 1: Like that's the whole goal, Like, you know, how do
Speaker 1: we educate people? And that's the whole point, because like
Speaker 1: it was never about taking down the special it was
Speaker 1: about creating purity and content so that people could understand
Speaker 1: the context for which he was talking. Like for instance,
Speaker 1: you know, I've spent a lot of time explaining the
Speaker 1: term turf to people, you know, over the past week,
Speaker 1: and they were like what they were like, is this
Speaker 1: the grass? I was like, no, it's not the grass.
Speaker 1: It's not this is like these are trans exclusionary radical
Speaker 1: feminists and what's dangerous about these people, and what's dangerous
Speaker 1: about someone like Dave Chappelle endorsing them is the simple
Speaker 1: fact of one, they don't think trans women or women.
Speaker 1: They think many trans men and trans mont binary people
Speaker 1: are just like confused women who have been harmed or
Speaker 1: hurt in some way and can't make their own adult decisions,
Speaker 1: which is like very strange to me. And then they
Speaker 1: also have they literally tear women down to this concept
Speaker 1: of like menistruation or being able to biologically have a child.
Speaker 1: And we know every single day people who are born
Speaker 1: as women are also particular, there's a lot of women
Speaker 1: who are also born who can never have children. So
Speaker 1: does that mean that any of those women are not women? Right?
Speaker 1: And so this ideology is not only harmful to the
Speaker 1: trans community, it's harmful to the overall women's movement. Right.
Speaker 1: The women's movement is being set back by this unintelligent
Speaker 1: conversation that's happening from this group of people who are
Speaker 1: full of hate. And so that's the type of nuance.
Speaker 1: Like I would love if Netflix, you know, founded, like
Speaker 1: you know, found a documentary that maybe already this or
Speaker 1: commissioner documentary that explain terms, you know, I would love
Speaker 1: to see a POSE esque show on Netflix. Give me
Speaker 1: six seasons of a show that that's like Pose on Netflix,
Speaker 1: and maybe I would like I would just be like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I didn't even get mad about the
Speaker 1: Chappelle's Special because there's a there's another piece of content
Speaker 1: that I can go to that I can point people
Speaker 1: to that shows trans lives in the fullness of trans
Speaker 1: lives right there. And that's the real point of this
Speaker 1: is that you cannot show one side of it that
Speaker 1: it's wrong, like right, cannot cannot say that enough it's wrong,
Speaker 1: it's inaccurate, it's not the right information, and then not
Speaker 1: also show the competing side. I mean, we do it
Speaker 1: for presidential elections. You can't. You can't have one person
Speaker 1: from one party, one person who's running for an office,
Speaker 1: on one channel and not give the other person or
Speaker 1: other people the chance to speak their peace. And all
Speaker 1: were asking is for media companies to invest in that.
Speaker 1: So talk to talk to me about UM, the walkout
Speaker 1: that that happened and the important list of demands that
Speaker 1: were that were put up UM to the two Netflix
Speaker 1: to the president of Netflix. Yeah, so first and foremost, UM,
Speaker 1: initially it was not going to be a walkout. So
Speaker 1: initially it was just supposed to be a trans date
Speaker 1: of rest, like an opportunity for you know, the trans
Speaker 1: people who had been deeply affected by this, because I
Speaker 1: could tell that it was a major emotional, you know,
Speaker 1: toll on people. Um, it was supposed to just be
Speaker 1: you know, at the trans day of rest, and then
Speaker 1: our colleagues who were not trans were supposed to educate
Speaker 1: themselves and look at different ways to support the trans community.
Speaker 1: But the problem is then all of Ted's emails came
Speaker 1: out and text emails were progressively worse and worse and worse.
Speaker 1: And so then I took a vote of the trans
Speaker 1: you know community and asked them, hey, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: starting to think maybe this should be a walkout. What
Speaker 1: do you think? And it was an overwhelming vote saying yes,
Speaker 1: you know, we think that that, you know, we would
Speaker 1: like to have this be a walkout. And then so
Speaker 1: on October fourteenth, at about like, you know, three or
Speaker 1: four pm, I posted in the public channel saying, hey,
Speaker 1: f why this is now a walkout? This is why,
Speaker 1: you know, we feel like we need to walk out,
Speaker 1: And that's how it became a walkout. So why were
Speaker 1: you fired, or why do you why do you why
Speaker 1: do you believe that Netflix terminated you after a year
Speaker 1: and seven months. So I will say that this is
Speaker 1: what they told me. So October fourteenth, I said, hey,
Speaker 1: let's have a walkout, and then by seven pm that
Speaker 1: day I was terminated for essentially what they said was
Speaker 1: the likelihood that I leaked sensitive and confidential information and
Speaker 1: was this the president's emails? No, that this is the
Speaker 1: data the data in the Bloomberg article. They were like,
Speaker 1: it's likely that you did, because you you access this information.
Speaker 1: And my response was yes, I did access that information
Speaker 1: in support of the initiatives that we were putting together
Speaker 1: to support our argument for diversifying the content on Netflix. Now,
Speaker 1: what's really interesting is is in that conversation they were like, well,
Speaker 1: but we also saw that you forwarded other emails in
Speaker 1: different times outside of Netflix. And I was like, are
Speaker 1: those all too, Alissa Pagels And they were like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well or they didn't necessarily say yeah, but they were like,
Speaker 1: I mean we could double check, and I was like,
Speaker 1: that's my wife. I was like, I forwarded those emails
Speaker 1: to my life and and and at the time they
Speaker 1: were like, oh, by the way, it's a fireball offense
Speaker 1: to afford any email that Netflix sends, period and it's like,
Speaker 1: we are you aware of that? I was not aware of.
Speaker 1: This was awhere, not that I know of. Like, you know,
Speaker 1: so I have an attorney. Now my attorney is like,
Speaker 1: I don't really understand how they came to this conclusion
Speaker 1: as well, because like, for instance, they were like and
Speaker 1: so I like, for instance, I even said back to them,
Speaker 1: I was like, well, but like you know, sometimes you
Speaker 1: guys will invite us to events and you know, you say, hey,
Speaker 1: like you can go to this movie premiere, so you're
Speaker 1: saying I shouldn't afford it that email to my wife
Speaker 1: asking her if she wanted to go with me, you know,
Speaker 1: and then you know, uh, you know, there's sometimes where
Speaker 1: they would say, do you want to watch this show
Speaker 1: and give us feedback to make sure the show is
Speaker 1: going to be good? And I afford that to my
Speaker 1: wife and said do you want to watch this show
Speaker 1: because you had to sign up and she would say
Speaker 1: yes or no. I was like, so I wasn't supposed
Speaker 1: to do that. You know, if a complimentary email came
Speaker 1: from one of our executives and I thought it was great,
Speaker 1: and I afforded to my wife and said, look at
Speaker 1: how great this email was. I wasn't supposed to do
Speaker 1: that either, Like, it didn't make sense to me that
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, all of these things that I
Speaker 1: just did in my normal course of business that often
Speaker 1: again we're often complimentary if netflix were fireable, and that
Speaker 1: there had never been an example of what you could
Speaker 1: be fired up for provided to me. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think this really comes back to this idea, like
Speaker 1: no rules, rules is a great concept until until things
Speaker 1: come up. Because I talk to other people and I
Speaker 1: won't name names, so I talk to other people. I
Speaker 1: was like, have you ever done any of these things?
Speaker 1: And they were like yeah. I was like, so basically
Speaker 1: we all should be fired because we were all breaking
Speaker 1: these types of rules, you know, And I think that's
Speaker 1: the that's the issue, you know, Like you know, and
Speaker 1: this goes back to the freedom responsibility and changing that
Speaker 1: to accountability. You know, you can't tell someone that they
Speaker 1: have the freedom to be transparent and do all these
Speaker 1: different types of actions, but then when that person does
Speaker 1: something that you don't like, all of a sudden, they
Speaker 1: become a problem. Because I mean, so then the question
Speaker 1: would be was it then not within the scope of
Speaker 1: your position to access the data that you access to
Speaker 1: begin with. I mean, as far as I know, if
Speaker 1: you have access to something, you can access it like that.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's as far as I know, you know,
Speaker 1: And also that it was if it had been restricted,
Speaker 1: then you wouldn't have been able to access it in
Speaker 1: the first place. Correct. And I'm not, to be clear,
Speaker 1: I'm not advocating for Netflix to change its policies to
Speaker 1: block things down. I'm not saying that at all. But
Speaker 1: what I am saying is is that this felt weird.
Speaker 1: It felt really really strange. And actually, in my previous role,
Speaker 1: so my most recent role was Game Watch Operations program Manager,
Speaker 1: but before that, I was a senior data product manager
Speaker 1: and I manage finance and membership data, which are two
Speaker 1: of the most important pieces of data that you could
Speaker 1: possibly deal with in Netflix. And in fact that that
Speaker 1: that job was so stressful because I would know weeks
Speaker 1: or months ahead of time whether we were probably going
Speaker 1: to miss how many you know, members we were supposed
Speaker 1: to have, how much money we made, and that is
Speaker 1: so much more sensitive than going on to a page
Speaker 1: and seeing, you know, what movie are we going to
Speaker 1: release for instance. So and I know, I don't want
Speaker 1: to get into the legalities of it, because you obviously
Speaker 1: have a case that is, you know, that is pending.
Speaker 1: What are the feelings of let's say, the employees who
Speaker 1: are trans who are also allies, what happens if the
Speaker 1: demands that are presented are not met? Where where do
Speaker 1: you think where do you think that this goes? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's really interesting. So one of the things I
Speaker 1: really appreciated about the allies that were a part of
Speaker 1: this movement is that they were a little scared, like
Speaker 1: they were a little pissed off too, right, And it
Speaker 1: really came back to like a few different ideas. So
Speaker 1: first and foremost it was this idea that you know,
Speaker 1: the emails were very strange. They seem to be shutting
Speaker 1: down the sense and that's not a core Netflix value.
Speaker 1: They were also really upset because especially around those comments
Speaker 1: around harmful content, because like I think, no matter who
Speaker 1: you are, like we all agree that there are certain
Speaker 1: types of content that you wouldn't show to certain types
Speaker 1: of people. That's why you have PG thirteen, That's why
Speaker 1: you have rated art, that's why you have rated NT seventeen.
Speaker 1: So it's well, it's well litigated that content has an
Speaker 1: impact in the real world, right. And I think the
Speaker 1: third thing about that was about reputation, right, Like it
Speaker 1: is ward for Netflix to think about the type of
Speaker 1: concept that we put out there. So I do think
Speaker 1: that no matter what, there's a little bit of a
Speaker 1: cultural rightning that has to happen to discuss what does
Speaker 1: it look like for Netflix to move forward and how
Speaker 1: it will actually handle these types of situations in the future.
Speaker 1: So that's first and foremost. Secondly, in terms of the
Speaker 1: ass not being met, I'm not sure how that's gonna look, right,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how allies especially are going to feel
Speaker 1: about that because the ass like almost everyone thinks the
Speaker 1: asks are very reasonable, right, And Netflix has the history
Speaker 1: of saying we're going to invest in this potential, this
Speaker 1: particular pipeline of talent to help grow this particular category
Speaker 1: of content. For instance, like there's like there's a one
Speaker 1: for black and Latin X people are already when COVID
Speaker 1: first started, they started creating these huge funds for creations
Speaker 1: across the world, So it's not that dilearched concepts that
Speaker 1: already exist, right. And then like one of the one
Speaker 1: of the other things is about actually, you know, investing
Speaker 1: marketing into trans you know content like so, for instance,
Speaker 1: many people think that Disclosure had a chance of potentially
Speaker 1: being nominated for an oscar, but Netflix didn't actually put
Speaker 1: a lot of power behind promoting it. Right, So these
Speaker 1: are all very reasonable, simple asks. And so I do
Speaker 1: think in my columns question, why wouldn't you want to
Speaker 1: do at least something here? Right? Um, So that's that's
Speaker 1: my take on it. I hope that you know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm being a little too pragmatic and like Netflix actually
Speaker 1: decides to take a dive in and really try to
Speaker 1: do um some some some bigger left there. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, you know, I've been very shocked by
Speaker 1: a lot of what Netflix has done over the past
Speaker 1: couple of weeks. These are things that I didn't expect
Speaker 1: from this company. Um and and and you know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm usually pretty good at predicting things, and so it's
Speaker 1: been very surprising to me the ways in which they've moved.
Speaker 1: Do you feel like, because of this termination and because
Speaker 1: of how public it is and has become, that you're
Speaker 1: going to be some in some way, shape or form
Speaker 1: blacklisted in your industry, So it's really interesting. So first
Speaker 1: and foremost Netflix is a media company, but I'm a technologist,
Speaker 1: right right, So I do think that that helps, Like
Speaker 1: if I it could be that if I wanted to
Speaker 1: work in another media company, there could be issues. But
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to end up being hopefully a
Speaker 1: product manader program manager a tech company, and I think
Speaker 1: it's a little bit different there, right, you know, from
Speaker 1: from that perspective. And I have reached out, well, my
Speaker 1: network has reached out to me, and there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people who have nothing but complimentary things to say
Speaker 1: about how much they loved working with me throughout my career.
Speaker 1: So I'm very hopeful that this is just simply a
Speaker 1: lesson for Netflix and that people remember the quality of
Speaker 1: my work for the past decade in technology and that
Speaker 1: I don't have issues, you know, and if I do
Speaker 1: have issues, if nothing else, I get to loudly say, hey,
Speaker 1: by the way, there's a lot of stuff going on
Speaker 1: here that we should really talk about and address and
Speaker 1: try to figure out how to fix, you know. I
Speaker 1: just I have to say that one, I commend you
Speaker 1: for the conversations that you have been having that are
Speaker 1: so much far beyond oh, just take down the special, right,
Speaker 1: because taking down the special isn't getting to the heart
Speaker 1: of the heart of the matter, right, which is to
Speaker 1: your point, initially about accountability, about responsibility, about representation that
Speaker 1: is on par with the you know, the good and
Speaker 1: the bad, right, giving that exposure, creating those pipelines. And
Speaker 1: I think that in these many large companies from Facebook
Speaker 1: to Netflix, Google and you know and all of them,
Speaker 1: that they're very tight lipped and you don't really know
Speaker 1: what's going on internally, and then when you get to
Speaker 1: see that, when the curtain is pulled back, you're just like, so,
Speaker 1: this isn't great, right, And as a consumer, I'm saying
Speaker 1: to myself, and especially as a black queer consumer, I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't really think that these asks are that hard,
Speaker 1: right for a multibillion dollar company to be able to
Speaker 1: put together. I know, you hire consultants and you know,
Speaker 1: and and and advocates and all of these different things.
Speaker 1: So make more of a concerted effort, right, like, show
Speaker 1: people that you are beyond just obviously it's a company.
Speaker 1: It's capitalism, Dave Chappelle makes them a hell of a
Speaker 1: lot of money. So they were never going to, you know,
Speaker 1: to take down that show. But it's like where else
Speaker 1: can you put investments? The last question for you is,
Speaker 1: you know, what are your hopes for your former colleagues
Speaker 1: now who did put themselves volves out there, who did
Speaker 1: do this walk out? Um, what are your hopes for
Speaker 1: how they're able to move forward in this climate? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I think there's two categories there. So for my
Speaker 1: trans Star siblings, like, I'm so proud of them, right,
Speaker 1: Like I it's so interesting because Tara and I, like
Speaker 1: we talk about this all the time. Tara and I
Speaker 1: are probably the two feistiest members of trans Star and
Speaker 1: the rest of the group often Um, they're they're the
Speaker 1: most creators of great people in the world. But it
Speaker 1: would have been easy, um, and the two of us
Speaker 1: had to go through what we went through to take
Speaker 1: a step back and say do we really want to
Speaker 1: do this? Do we want to risk this? And they did.
Speaker 1: They pushed forward, they kept promoting things, they kept making
Speaker 1: sure it happened. I'm so proud of them, and I
Speaker 1: know for a fact that every single one of them
Speaker 1: is made the better for it, because, like I know
Speaker 1: that they now know that they have the strength to
Speaker 1: to fight no matter what. And I also really firmly
Speaker 1: believe that they can make this happen, like they can
Speaker 1: really continue to be the bug and Netflix's ear saying, hey,
Speaker 1: where's that trans content? When's it gonna happen, Where's it
Speaker 1: gonna be here for the allies to join? You know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that's interesting to me, and this
Speaker 1: goes to show when you deal with quality people, it
Speaker 1: does not matter what happens, they show up for you.
Speaker 1: You know, I've gotten dozens upon dozens of mustages for
Speaker 1: my former Netflix colleagues. They also set up a diaper
Speaker 1: fund for me, and honestly, it's at this point it's
Speaker 1: it's a big enough fun that I'm just like, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna have to donate some diapers to other people because
Speaker 1: it's like this is too much for diapers. But you know,
Speaker 1: they set up all of this to make sure I
Speaker 1: was taken care of, and so like, I love and
Speaker 1: appreciate them. You know, I have no ill will towards Netflix,
Speaker 1: primarily because I want them to be successful, right and
Speaker 1: and a lot of those individuals they have the ability,
Speaker 1: they're so talented, they're so smart, and I know for
Speaker 1: a fact that they're gonna be a bugging people's ears too,
Speaker 1: saying hey, this was weird, this was strange. How can
Speaker 1: we be better? Let's never have the situation happen again.
Speaker 1: We should never be divided in this way as a company,
Speaker 1: because like we are trying to fight all these other
Speaker 1: competitive forces, why are we also fighting within ourselves? Be
Speaker 1: you know, once again, thank you so much for making
Speaker 1: the time for willkaf today, but also for your courage
Speaker 1: to speak out and be honest and vulnerable, right because
Speaker 1: it's it's oftentimes black trans people just in general are silenced,
Speaker 1: our stats and our victims and are made to be victims.
Speaker 1: And in this instance, you're, you know, a warrior on
Speaker 1: the front lines, bringing much light and needed attention to
Speaker 1: a situation that frankly shouldn't have occurred. And hopefully people
Speaker 1: will learn from this moving forward. And I hope that
Speaker 1: as your case evolves and moves forward, that you'll come
Speaker 1: back and join us again and give us an update
Speaker 1: as to as to where things go. I will be
Speaker 1: happy too, and and and honestly, I really hope it's
Speaker 1: a very positive update, you know, I am. I'm putting
Speaker 1: that energy and those vibrations out for you. As well. Yes,
Speaker 1: for sure, thank you, thank you. That is it for me.
Speaker 1: Dear friends here on woke as always. Power to the
Speaker 1: people and to all the people. Power, get woke and
Speaker 1: stay woke as fuck.