1
00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

2
00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:09,560
Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

3
00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,840
Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Holles, a retired cold case investigator who's

4
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,439
Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

5
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,840
Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

6
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:21,680
Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

7
00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279
Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

8
00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,079
Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

9
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

10
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

11
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,800
Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

12
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:39,839
Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

13
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing.

14
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,399
Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I've been non stop reading the next

15
00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,320
Speaker 1: part of what we're going to be talking about, the

16
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,080
Speaker 1: vera Page story. I think we just need to kind

17
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 1: of jump into it because there's so much to cover.

18
00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,000
Speaker 1: You said in part one you were pretty impressed so

19
00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,839
Speaker 1: far with doctor Spillsbury as a forensic pathologist and everything

20
00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,960
Speaker 1: he was able to do in nineteen thirty one, so

21
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:24,640
Speaker 1: long ago.

22
00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,160
Speaker 2: Well, I think what I like because you often don't

23
00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,200
Speaker 2: get this from pathologists, but I like the fact that

24
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,920
Speaker 2: he was taking a look at the physical evidence, whether

25
00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,480
Speaker 2: that be the medical evidence or the physical evidence on

26
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,080
Speaker 2: Vera's body, on her clothing, and was trying to discern

27
00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:46,240
Speaker 2: information to help give the investigation some leads. We don't

28
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:50,120
Speaker 2: see that very often from pathologists today, So for me,

29
00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:54,280
Speaker 2: that is just reassuring that somebody is thinking, yeah, he's.

30
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,040
Speaker 1: Very Surelock holmesy in I think Spillsbury and if you

31
00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 1: read more of his cases, he's who is a puzzle maker.

32
00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:04,800
Speaker 1: He was somebody who is able to put these puzzle

33
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,720
Speaker 1: pieces together and put together a narrative, which, believe me,

34
00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:12,240
Speaker 1: the notting Hill police need at this point because they

35
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,920
Speaker 1: are desperately trying to figure out what happened to ten

36
00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,920
Speaker 1: year old Via Page in nineteen thirty one when she

37
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,520
Speaker 1: went about a fifteen minute walk to go visit her

38
00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,720
Speaker 1: aunt Minnie and get her swimming certificates in her red

39
00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,519
Speaker 1: beret and then went missing. And then her body is

40
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 1: found thirty six hours later in a garden of a

41
00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 1: private home, but nobody in the home is a suspect,

42
00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,720
Speaker 1: and doctor Spilsbury thinks that based on the coal dust,

43
00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:40,520
Speaker 1: based on some wax, based on the fact that she

44
00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted, that this was done in private, probably

45
00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 1: in a coal seller, but based on her advanced decomposition,

46
00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,000
Speaker 1: that her body was kept in a warm environment in

47
00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,520
Speaker 1: a warm room until she was deposited on that Wednesday

48
00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 1: morning in this garden. And you said all that tallied

49
00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,640
Speaker 1: with what you would have thought would been the results

50
00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:01,240
Speaker 1: of this also so far.

51
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:07,120
Speaker 2: No, that is correct. Now, I know you kind of

52
00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,920
Speaker 2: left me on a cliffhanger, indicating that Vera, instead of

53
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 2: walking straight back to her parents' house that witnesses ended

54
00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,040
Speaker 2: up placing her somewhere else after she was at her

55
00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:19,600
Speaker 2: aunt's house.

56
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,080
Speaker 1: Yes, and I did leave you on a cliffhanger because

57
00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,520
Speaker 1: this just scared me to death, and maybe it won't

58
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,679
Speaker 1: scare other parents. But I am pretty overprotective of my kids,

59
00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,400
Speaker 1: and I know that you can be too. So what

60
00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,160
Speaker 1: we know is that Vera's school friends saw her after

61
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,320
Speaker 1: she left Aunt Minnie's house. So up until now we

62
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,600
Speaker 1: just thought this little girl disappeared, maybe from the doorstep

63
00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,400
Speaker 1: of Aunt Minnie's house, fifteen minutes away from her home,

64
00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,200
Speaker 1: and then her body is found about a mile down

65
00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:53,880
Speaker 1: the road from where her parents live. But her friend said, no,

66
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:58,440
Speaker 1: we saw her, and everybody is excellent with time, Paul,

67
00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,640
Speaker 1: It's amazing, and I know there were public clocks all

68
00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 1: over the place in London at this time. She had

69
00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:10,200
Speaker 1: gone without permission towards a shopping street, a very busy

70
00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:14,640
Speaker 1: shopping street, very close to Minnie's house. Everything was decorated

71
00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 1: for Christmas, and her friends bumped into her around six pm.

72
00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,680
Speaker 1: This is an hour and fifteen minutes after she left

73
00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,720
Speaker 1: Minnie's house, and this is around the time where her

74
00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,800
Speaker 1: dad started canvassing the neighborhood trying to figure out where

75
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,719
Speaker 1: she is. They said she was very excited because she

76
00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,800
Speaker 1: wanted to buy some soap for a Christmas present, presumably

77
00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,359
Speaker 1: for somebody in her family. And this was a no

78
00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,680
Speaker 1: shit moment for me because you know the kids, these

79
00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,520
Speaker 1: are little kids who saw her. They know exactly who

80
00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 1: she is. This is not mistaken identity. She's wearing the

81
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:51,240
Speaker 1: red beret, she's got these swimming certificates in her hand,

82
00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,960
Speaker 1: and here she is on a busy street by herself,

83
00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:54,760
Speaker 1: a ten year old.

84
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,279
Speaker 2: Yeah you know that, and of course that's that's such

85
00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,920
Speaker 2: a scary situation. But I'm immediately jumping to Okay, so

86
00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:06,800
Speaker 2: she herself is excited about going and buying soap, so

87
00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,279
Speaker 2: this is a shopping area, and my mind immediately goes Okay,

88
00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 2: which stores along the shopping area would be selling the

89
00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,040
Speaker 2: soap that Vera is wanting, and I would be wanting

90
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:20,960
Speaker 2: to go to those shops in case she made it

91
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 2: all the way inside one of those.

92
00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,719
Speaker 1: It sounds like she did, because another person who knows

93
00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:31,520
Speaker 1: Vera says she saw her forty five minutes after that.

94
00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,640
Speaker 1: She remembers her holding these swimming certificates, and it seems

95
00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 1: like she was on her way away from her home.

96
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,159
Speaker 1: It sounds like she was a half a mile away

97
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,279
Speaker 1: from her house. So I don't know if she was

98
00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,520
Speaker 1: going away or if the shopping center was very far

99
00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,800
Speaker 1: away from Minnie's. But she is now instead of not

100
00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,120
Speaker 1: far at her aunt's house, she is now half a

101
00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 1: mile away from her home, which is about a mile

102
00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:03,520
Speaker 1: away from where her body was deposited. And that is

103
00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 1: the last person to have seen her alive.

104
00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,040
Speaker 2: And is this in the residential area or is this

105
00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,640
Speaker 2: still in the shopping area. Okay, so she's left the

106
00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 2: shopping area and is now walking in a residential space.

107
00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,040
Speaker 1: Right about half a mile from her home, which is

108
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 1: not that far. I mean, I you know, I can

109
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,120
Speaker 1: run half a mile and so for a ten year

110
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:26,920
Speaker 1: old it seems very far. But for me, I especially

111
00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 1: living in London, in New York and San Francisco, it

112
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,799
Speaker 1: wouldn't phaze me at all. But now we're getting further

113
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,960
Speaker 1: away from Aunt Minnie's, we're getting further away from her home,

114
00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,159
Speaker 1: and you know, still about a mile from where her

115
00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:43,960
Speaker 1: body was deposited. We don't know why she was over there.

116
00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,640
Speaker 2: Well, I'm just kind of wondering if she lost could

117
00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,159
Speaker 2: be that's where you know, what is her familiarity with

118
00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,360
Speaker 2: this particular area, if she frequently walking around in these neighborhoods,

119
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,160
Speaker 2: so she knew exactly where she was going. Or did

120
00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,600
Speaker 2: she get to the shopping center and then take a

121
00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,479
Speaker 2: wrong turn down the wrong street, you know, thinking it

122
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,040
Speaker 2: would take her home and didn't.

123
00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 1: Well, now there's something even more interesting. So the Thursday

124
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,240
Speaker 1: after Vera's murder, wants, of course the newspapers got a

125
00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,880
Speaker 1: hold of this story, a woman came forward with some information.

126
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,920
Speaker 1: Her name is Kathleen Short, and she says that she

127
00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 1: lives at a house on Stanley Crescent. This is about

128
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,080
Speaker 1: a half a mile from Vera's home residence. And this

129
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,920
Speaker 1: is about you know where she was when the last

130
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:34,720
Speaker 1: witness saw her alive. She says that nine pm on Tuesday,

131
00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:39,000
Speaker 1: twenty four hours later, she found a red beret outside

132
00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 1: her house. Oh, and she said she brought it inside

133
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,960
Speaker 1: and saved it. She'd also found strips of cardboard where

134
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,240
Speaker 1: she thought probably now thinking back, she said, I think

135
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,160
Speaker 1: it's the swimming certificates. But she threw him in the garbage.

136
00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 1: And so it sounds like number one, these weren't mementos.

137
00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,440
Speaker 1: They were discarded. Like you had kind of predicted that

138
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:05,040
Speaker 1: he had made snatched her and left behind the the beret,

139
00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,480
Speaker 1: but that this was something twenty four hours later that

140
00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,720
Speaker 1: had been sitting there in front of this woman's house.

141
00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this may be the abduction location. Now, you know,

142
00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,240
Speaker 2: something that would easily fall off of Vera's head, you know,

143
00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,440
Speaker 2: during an abduction, is just left there. It's possible the

144
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,640
Speaker 2: offender could have tossed it, you know, at some point

145
00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:31,640
Speaker 2: after that. But based on the witness that saw Vera

146
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,320
Speaker 2: walking in this general area, and so now you have

147
00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,120
Speaker 2: a red beret just laying on the ground and this

148
00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 2: woman sees it, she throws it away, right.

149
00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, she threw away the certificates she kept the beret.

150
00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,520
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, right now, I think I leaned towards

151
00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:49,920
Speaker 2: this very very likely either at that location where those

152
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,720
Speaker 2: items are found, or real close to that is where

153
00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,160
Speaker 2: the offender had the initial interaction with Vera.

154
00:08:55,320 --> 00:09:01,600
Speaker 1: Here's the problem. Kathleen Short says that Tuesday night, twenty

155
00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,679
Speaker 1: four hours after Vera was abducted, she saw that beret

156
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 1: nine pm. She hadn't seen it earlier.

157
00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,040
Speaker 2: Oh right, But.

158
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,960
Speaker 1: The police noticed that her coal cellar had no lock

159
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,000
Speaker 1: on it. So now what do we do? Now? What

160
00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,480
Speaker 1: do we do? We have an accessible coal cellar, which

161
00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,960
Speaker 1: honestly was unusual because in this time period people would

162
00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:28,480
Speaker 1: have gone in and stolen coal, which was very expensive.

163
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,320
Speaker 2: Well, this becomes considered as a crime scene, you know,

164
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,800
Speaker 2: And so now it's processing that coal cellar and looking

165
00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:41,360
Speaker 2: for evidence of either Vera being killed down there or disturbances.

166
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,840
Speaker 2: You know. Of course you're going to have the soot,

167
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:47,560
Speaker 2: you know, and the coal that is found on Vera's body,

168
00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:50,760
Speaker 2: But do you also have the paraffin wax? Do you

169
00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,199
Speaker 2: have the sources of the wax, the caundlewax in this

170
00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:58,560
Speaker 2: particular cellar? Is there any evidence? Is there shoe prints?

171
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,600
Speaker 2: In the soot on the floor. Is there any other

172
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,840
Speaker 2: items that came from vera? Is there anything from the

173
00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,400
Speaker 2: offender that could be in the space. So this has

174
00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,840
Speaker 2: to be considered at least a potential crime scene and

175
00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:13,000
Speaker 2: processed accordingly.

176
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:17,360
Speaker 1: I agree, And you know, Spillsbury says, this is helpful information,

177
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:21,280
Speaker 1: but it's nothing conclusive because the fact that he believes

178
00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,760
Speaker 1: she was kept in a warm area. If it happened

179
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,680
Speaker 1: in this cellar, which it could have, she was not

180
00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,280
Speaker 1: there very long, and he says she must have been

181
00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 1: transported somewhere. That being said, the police say, okay, if

182
00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,560
Speaker 1: this happened, would you all have heard her scream? You

183
00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,840
Speaker 1: must have been able to hear her scream because they

184
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:46,760
Speaker 1: live right above this coal seller, right, And Kathleen says, maybe,

185
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:52,319
Speaker 1: but we didn't because we jam out on our gramophone

186
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,439
Speaker 1: in the evenings and they blast it. And so they

187
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,720
Speaker 1: do a little test. The police say, turn the music

188
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,600
Speaker 1: up full blast like you normally would. And the police

189
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 1: go down to the cellar and close the door and

190
00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:05,959
Speaker 1: they screen bloody murder and they said, we can't hear

191
00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,280
Speaker 1: a thing. The shorts say, no, we can't hear you.

192
00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:12,400
Speaker 1: I mean, not scientific, but it seems effective that this

193
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:14,760
Speaker 1: guy could have had If this is the seller, he

194
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,960
Speaker 1: would have had privacy and the people upstairs wouldn't have heard.

195
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and that goes to you if there

196
00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,320
Speaker 2: had been any screams from Vera, or if there had

197
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:30,000
Speaker 2: been a commotion during a struggle, it would indicate that, yeah,

198
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,640
Speaker 2: there's a possibility that witnesses to these sounds, even when

199
00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,679
Speaker 2: they're home, This could easily have happened. But the one

200
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,600
Speaker 2: thing I do want to point out, in all likelihood,

201
00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 2: without even knowing who the offender is, but in all likelihood,

202
00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 2: we're dealing with a fender that is dominant to Vera,

203
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:51,280
Speaker 2: physically dominant, and so I would not suspect that she

204
00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:56,600
Speaker 2: had much ability to resist. There may have been the

205
00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:00,480
Speaker 2: ability by this type of offender to completely contain any

206
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,560
Speaker 2: sounds just because he's so physically dominant. Hand over the

207
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,640
Speaker 2: mouth or immediate strangulation. You know, when you're being strangled,

208
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,600
Speaker 2: you're not able to scream. So you know, there may

209
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 2: not have been any sounds coming up out of that

210
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,360
Speaker 2: coal cellar if there is being attacked down there.

211
00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,800
Speaker 1: Not from the coal cellar. But now we have two

212
00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 1: women on Monday night, around eight thirty pm. They say

213
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,960
Speaker 1: they don't know Vera, but they say they heard the

214
00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:32,080
Speaker 1: scream of a child in pain around eight thirty pm

215
00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,720
Speaker 1: that night. So this is an hour and a half

216
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,959
Speaker 1: hour and forty five minutes after Vera is last seen

217
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 1: in the shopping area which is called Laedbrick Grove. So

218
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,679
Speaker 1: they hear a scream. We don't know if this is

219
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 1: Vera or not, but this is what they report and

220
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:51,840
Speaker 1: they don't know her.

221
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 2: Okay, And are they given any statements as to where

222
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,800
Speaker 2: the direction that they think the scream is coming from?

223
00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,920
Speaker 1: You know? They say that it's coming from the area

224
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,240
Speaker 1: of a neighborhood ladbrit Grove. It's the area where she

225
00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,280
Speaker 1: was window shopping. They can't be specific about what house

226
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,200
Speaker 1: it was, but they do think it was from the

227
00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,880
Speaker 1: residential part of it. But let's get a hold of

228
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,680
Speaker 1: this timeline real quick, because I'm really confused and maybe

229
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:15,800
Speaker 1: you know, you can help me sort it out. So

230
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,080
Speaker 1: she goes to Aunt Minnie's, she gets there, she leaves,

231
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 1: she sneaks off over to this shopping district because she

232
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,720
Speaker 1: wants to buy soap. People see her, not in pain,

233
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,959
Speaker 1: not kidnapped. Up until about six forty five pm where she's,

234
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,160
Speaker 1: you know, half a mile from her parents in this residential,

235
00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:38,560
Speaker 1: mixed shopping district. About an hour forty five minutes after that,

236
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,240
Speaker 1: someone hears a child in pain scream and that's it.

237
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,160
Speaker 1: We don't see her again. But twenty four hours later,

238
00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,000
Speaker 1: the owner of a house walks out and sees a

239
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 1: red beret that night and the swimming certificates. By the way,

240
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,840
Speaker 1: the coal cellar is unlocked. But the police can't say

241
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,800
Speaker 1: if anything happened down there in Spillsbury. Say, if it did,

242
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,920
Speaker 1: he moved her quickly because she was in a warm environment.

243
00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:09,120
Speaker 1: So what happened between Monday when they heard the scream

244
00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:13,720
Speaker 1: and when the beret was discovered Tuesday near the coal cellar.

245
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 1: What happened in that twenty four hour period, because Kathleen

246
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,160
Speaker 1: Short says, I did not see a beret in front

247
00:14:21,160 --> 00:14:24,280
Speaker 1: of my house until nine o'clock that night, So what

248
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:25,200
Speaker 1: would have happened.

249
00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:27,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think what's happening is is we're dealing with

250
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,240
Speaker 2: ground zero here. This neighborhood is ground zero for the offender.

251
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,120
Speaker 2: He has an anchor point here, whether he lives in

252
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:39,200
Speaker 2: this area or he works in this area. That's right

253
00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,160
Speaker 2: now is what I'm thinking is going on because he's

254
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,880
Speaker 2: now attacking Vera in all likelihood in this area. And

255
00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 2: then if he lives let's say two miles away, and

256
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,520
Speaker 2: takes Vera two miles away, why would he come back

257
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 2: with her beret and her certificates to this neighborhood to

258
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,440
Speaker 2: dispose of him. He wouldn't. So it sounds like everything

259
00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:08,200
Speaker 2: is happening somewhere around this coal seller. And this is

260
00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:12,040
Speaker 2: now investigatively this work. You know, I'm descending with a

261
00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 2: team and now trying to figure out who all lives

262
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,400
Speaker 2: in this area, who has access to this area, who

263
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 2: flows through this area, to see if I can develop

264
00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,240
Speaker 2: some suspects, and possibly a location where her body had

265
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:24,800
Speaker 2: been kept.

266
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,320
Speaker 1: So I have a little theory, and you might say

267
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:30,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense. My theory is that this coal

268
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,840
Speaker 1: seller is not the coal seller where it happened because

269
00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,520
Speaker 1: of a couple things. Number One, everybody had a coal seller,

270
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,040
Speaker 1: and that includes the killer if he lives in this neighborhood,

271
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 1: like we think. Number Two, people went in and out

272
00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,760
Speaker 1: of coal sellers all the time for coal. And it's December,

273
00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,480
Speaker 1: it is freezing. It's unpredictable when somebody would have come

274
00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,320
Speaker 1: down here, he would have had to have some time

275
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,200
Speaker 1: to sexually assault her and killer. So that's a really

276
00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 1: big risk, even late at night, because people really we're

277
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,480
Speaker 1: coming in and out of these sellers. I wonder if

278
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,000
Speaker 1: it's his seller, and as you said, he's just dumping

279
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,040
Speaker 1: this stuff in front of somebody else's house just to

280
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 1: get rid of it. I don't see him risking being

281
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 1: caught by going to somebody else's cellar.

282
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 2: No, and that I completely agree with that. You know,

283
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 2: this initial seller, coal seller that's unlocked, you still have

284
00:16:23,160 --> 00:16:25,320
Speaker 2: to process it as a crime scene. But during that

285
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,000
Speaker 2: processing you may discover Okay, we don't think this is

286
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,320
Speaker 2: the location where she's being attacked or killed. But considering

287
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,680
Speaker 2: the timeline, the witness statements, the beret, the certificate, this

288
00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,600
Speaker 2: is where ground zero. It's now going into those residents,

289
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 2: looking at those coal sellers, looking at other aspects seeing

290
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,040
Speaker 2: you know, when you communicate with the homeowner whoever's at

291
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,680
Speaker 2: that residence, you know somebody not acting right as somebody

292
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 2: seemed nervous. So right now, through the investigative efforts with

293
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 2: gathering the witness statements, they have focus in I think

294
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:06,680
Speaker 2: on the proper geographic location. Now it is gumshoe detective work.

295
00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:09,400
Speaker 2: At this point, this is boots on the ground and

296
00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:10,360
Speaker 2: going door to door.

297
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,600
Speaker 1: Spillsbury has not given up on getting more evidence from

298
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 1: the body. He notices that during his autopsy that there

299
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 1: is something in her the inner crook of her right

300
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 1: elbow after she's gone through rigor, and he pries it

301
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,159
Speaker 1: open and he looks and it's a finger bandage. So

302
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to tease you with DNA evidence That

303
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,160
Speaker 1: does us no good. I know, I know, I'm frustrated too.

304
00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,200
Speaker 1: But what the police in nineteen thirty one say is well,

305
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,200
Speaker 1: at least if we get a suspect, we can look

306
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,680
Speaker 1: and see if he has a deep cut. Because this

307
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,520
Speaker 1: is what he says, and I don't know this word.

308
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 1: She did not have any noticeable finger injuries, but it

309
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,040
Speaker 1: seemed to be able to fit a man's finger. So

310
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,400
Speaker 1: it's a larger bandage, he said. The bandage was stained

311
00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,800
Speaker 1: with superrating wound.

312
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,240
Speaker 2: Do you know what that means? This is a process

313
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,720
Speaker 2: of puss forming. So now you have white blood cells

314
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 2: that are flowing into this wound that this bandage is on,

315
00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,159
Speaker 2: and so it may have a red reddish tone to it.

316
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,760
Speaker 2: With blood. But there's also going to be a more

317
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 2: dilute aspect to it, because now you have this clear

318
00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,200
Speaker 2: puss unless it's very infected, where now, of course people

319
00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,320
Speaker 2: are familiar with more of that greenish look.

320
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,520
Speaker 1: Is that significant at all? Does it really matter? He

321
00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: has a cut on his finger, right, I.

322
00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 2: Don't know if you can draw a conclusion that he

323
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 2: would have a cut on his finger. Is this bandage

324
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,280
Speaker 2: only something that could be put on a finger, or

325
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:33,920
Speaker 2: is this something that could be put on any part

326
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:34,439
Speaker 2: of the body.

327
00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 1: They call it a finger bandage, so it was meant

328
00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,919
Speaker 1: for a finger, and he said it smells like ammonia,

329
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,200
Speaker 1: and there are bits of lint caught in the bandage,

330
00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,600
Speaker 1: and Spillsbury says, this must have fallen off his finger

331
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 1: when he was depositing her body in the garden or

332
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:49,240
Speaker 1: at some.

333
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,680
Speaker 2: Point, or was something that where her body was kept,

334
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,160
Speaker 2: was just on the floor where her body was laid yep,

335
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,639
Speaker 2: you know, and end up getting caught up on you know,

336
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 2: into her clothing or onto her skin. So with that,

337
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:07,520
Speaker 2: assuming that this bandage was on the offender at some point,

338
00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,360
Speaker 2: you know, yes, you have to pay attention. Does this

339
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,960
Speaker 2: person have a wound? You know, if you're going door

340
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,760
Speaker 2: to door, look at the residents' hands, see if there's

341
00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,320
Speaker 2: anything that stands out in terms of maybe a fresher

342
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,920
Speaker 2: or weeping injury or maybe you know, the person would

343
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:25,040
Speaker 2: likely have another bandage.

344
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,200
Speaker 1: Ont mm hm, okay, Well, it's just another little piece

345
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 1: of information. We will have a suspect here in a

346
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,680
Speaker 1: little bit. Even though I told you it's an unsolved case.

347
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,040
Speaker 1: There are a lot of little details and we have

348
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 1: to figure out, you know, as this all add up.

349
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 1: So transportation police are still trying to figure out if

350
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 1: this is the space, if this is the geographic area

351
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 1: where all of this happened, how did he get with

352
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 1: no car? Most likely, how did he get her from

353
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:57,959
Speaker 1: this block, this coal cellar, this area a mile away

354
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:02,200
Speaker 1: to the front Gordon And as I said before, car

355
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 1: ownership really shot up in the mid thirties, but not now.

356
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,320
Speaker 1: So it's likely, Spillsberry says, and the investigators say that

357
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 1: he figured out a different way to transport her, which

358
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,040
Speaker 1: is disturbing because then it really kind of widens out again.

359
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 1: Who could have taken her there?

360
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 2: Well, think about this, Kate, is that this offender, especially

361
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 2: at the time of the day that he likely deposited

362
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 2: her body. If he's transporting her body, he's not walking

363
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,120
Speaker 2: with her and carrying a sack, he would stand out.

364
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,200
Speaker 2: So I'm assuming he's savvy enough that he is going

365
00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,959
Speaker 2: to utilize some sort of mechanism that would be routinely

366
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,679
Speaker 2: seen in the neighborhood, like maybe the carriage that is

367
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,480
Speaker 2: holding a bunch of milk, you know, something like that

368
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 2: where people just assume that this is the milkman delivering milk,

369
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,399
Speaker 2: and then he always actually got the body stuffed in

370
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,119
Speaker 2: the back of this milk carriage. I'm assuming that's a

371
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,920
Speaker 2: type ofvehicle that the milkman would have during this time frame,

372
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,399
Speaker 2: or you know, some wagon of some sort that you

373
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 2: know would have gardening tools. That's where my mind is going,

374
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 2: versus somebody just walking down the street, either with Vera's

375
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 2: body or rolled up in carpet, that just would stand out, right.

376
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,320
Speaker 1: So you mentioned a sled or some sort of a

377
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 1: wagon or a wheelbarrow.

378
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there you go.

379
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 1: So the police go back to eighty nine Addison where

380
00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,879
Speaker 1: she was found, and there's a woman who is interviewed.

381
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,399
Speaker 1: Their name's Margaret Key. She says, at six point forty

382
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 1: in the morning, three hours before the milkman discovers Vera's body,

383
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,200
Speaker 1: she saw a guy pushing a wheelbarrow at a heavily

384
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: trafficked intersection in notting Hill near Addison Avenue, not in

385
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: front of eighty nine Addison, but near the location, three

386
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: hours beforehand. She gives him a basic description of the

387
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 1: guy they say was in the wheelbarrow, and she said

388
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: he had a large bundle which was covered in red

389
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,040
Speaker 1: fabric that had like a knitted fringe. This is not

390
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:13,159
Speaker 1: that uncommon because laborers use wheelbarrows in London all the time,

391
00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 1: but this was a weird thing for him to cart

392
00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: around early in the morning, and just something really made

393
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 1: her uncomfortable about him. So this is someone where they're

394
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,120
Speaker 1: saying that's how he might have gotten her there.

395
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm liking this. Actually, this kind of fits with

396
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 2: what I was saying. It would be something that at

397
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 2: least would somewhat blend into a routine activity, but he

398
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: doesn't pull it off completely. If this is truly the

399
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 2: offender disposing of Vera's body, you know, so now you

400
00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 2: have this very observant woman going that doesn't look right. Yeah,

401
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 2: so I'm liking this. This is sounding good, but that had.

402
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: To have looked more normal than a guy pushing a

403
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: wheelbarrow at ten at night or one in the morning.

404
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 1: At least you can look at this guy with a

405
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: wheelbarrow at six or forty in the morning and saying,

406
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: somebody off to some kind of job. That happened all

407
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: the time, but for some reason, this man really stood out.

408
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,959
Speaker 1: And the police are looking everywhere. They are in hospitals

409
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: trying to figure out if somebody was treated for a

410
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: wound on their finger. Because of the blood and the

411
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 1: amount of ammonium, it looks like it was a serious

412
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 1: wound on his finger. They go to chemists, they say,

413
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: did anybody buy bandages? They start talking to men who

414
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,000
Speaker 1: had been convicted of sex crimes until they get to

415
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: Margaret Key and she says, listen, this guy was doing

416
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: something really weird. I don't know what happened. It's a

417
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:42,159
Speaker 1: weird bundle to have in a wheelbarrow. They eventually narrow

418
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,399
Speaker 1: it down to one person who seems to fit a

419
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 1: few different things, and this is where we need to

420
00:23:47,520 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: really think about the circumstantial evidence here. His name is

421
00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 1: Percy Rush, and he was interviewed by police two days

422
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: after Vera was discovered. So let's think about the criminal profiling.

423
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: You said that this is a suspect who probably was

424
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: able to overpower her, you know, pretty easily. He was

425
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 1: described as a short, thick set man, and he absolutely

426
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: matches the physical description that he gave of the guy

427
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: pushing this weird wheelbarrel. And he works as a launderer,

428
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: somebody who does laundry. So already we have a couple

429
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 1: of things ticked off here. Somebody who's obviously physically capable.

430
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,800
Speaker 1: It's not like it would be difficult with a ten

431
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: year old, but she could have run, she could have screamed,

432
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: and might have screamed. And you know, he is somebody

433
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: who seems like, even though he's short, he could be

434
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: a pretty imposing figure for a ten year old.

435
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 2: Oh no, absolutely. But also it's like where does he live?

436
00:24:58,359 --> 00:24:59,120
Speaker 2: Where does he work?

437
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 1: Right, we're getting to that, Paul. You need to similar down, Pepper.

438
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: I I need more, Okay.

439
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 1: So let's get into his criminal history, because he does

440
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: have some and I know that we say it does count.

441
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: This is a long list. He was convicted of indecent

442
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: exposure multiple times, he got prison time for it, and

443
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: a man matching his physical description was reported by numerous

444
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,320
Speaker 1: women between nineteen twenty nine and nineteen thirty one. When

445
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: this happened, he had been exposing himself to them in public,

446
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: and in nineteen thirty one, the same year earlier, in

447
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 1: the year that Vera went missing and was murdered, he

448
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: had exposed himself to two young schoolgirls, and Percy says,

449
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: you're crazy. I didn't do any of this, and nothing

450
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:52,679
Speaker 1: really had been formally filed until about nineteen twenty seven.

451
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,359
Speaker 1: Oh before nineteen twenty seven, he had done some jail

452
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: time for indecent exposure, but then after nineteen twenty seven,

453
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 1: nothing really happened to him. He had been around, but

454
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: he does have this history of sexual crime. So he

455
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 1: ticks up on our list, right, Yes, how.

456
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: Old is he at the time of Era's homicide forty one,

457
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: so earlier in his life. He's an exhibitionist. He's an

458
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 2: exhibitionist that's approaching both adult women as well as exposing

459
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 2: himself to schoolgirls. He said, Yep. Sometimes exhibitionists, that's all

460
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 2: they do. They get the thrill of causing you know, hey,

461
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: here I am, look at me, and the reaction that

462
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: these women have, and they get sexual gratification from doing that.

463
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: They also masturbate about reliving those types of exposures. However,

464
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 2: we've seen offenders that will escalate. And even though he

465
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: doesn't have any law enforcement contact for exhibition in decent

466
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:59,159
Speaker 2: exposure since what nineteen twenty seven, in all likelihood, he

467
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 2: is very possibly peeping cases that aren't being reported to

468
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: law enforcement. He may even have sexual assaults. But now

469
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 2: you have a ten year old girl, this sounds like

470
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: she is an absolute victim of opportunity considering the circumstances.

471
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 2: You know, she's out wandering around and takes a path

472
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: that is not routine for her. It's not like she's

473
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: doing this every night and somebody could lie and wait

474
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: knowing she's going to come. This is where somewhere along

475
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: her travels that night he spotted her and he saw,

476
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 2: I have a victim here.

477
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: I have a little more info for you. Okay, So

478
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: Percy's sleazy. There's no getting around that. He has a

479
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 1: bad reputation for, you know, being inappropriate with women. And

480
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 1: of course we talked about the indecent exposure with the schoolgirls.

481
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: But when police question him, he said, I don't know

482
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: anything about this. I would never kill anybody. I would

483
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: never sexually assault a kid. I am a homebody. I

484
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: almost never leave my house without my wife, except sometimes

485
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: I go visit my parents, whose names are Albert and

486
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 1: Alice Rush. And I know you don't remember this, but

487
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: they live on the top floor of Vera Page's house.

488
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 2: Think silence of the lambs. You covet what you see? Yeah, okay,

489
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 2: so he's got an anchor point in the same residential

490
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 2: structure as the victim. Investigatively, are they able to place

491
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 2: him at that location? That What was it a Monday

492
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 2: night that Vera went to her aunt's house.

493
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: Yes, let me unravel everything that the police are connecting

494
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: before I answer that question. So let me go through

495
00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: kind of the timeline here. So he says I know Vera,

496
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: and he actually says, I knew Vera Page. She was

497
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: a sweet, pretty little girl. I have never given her

498
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: sweets or money or toys, which is a weird thing

499
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 1: to say. As an aside, I have seen her playing

500
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: in the streets outside her own home. I last saw

501
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: her about three weeks ago. And then he says, I

502
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: don't know if I would recognize her if I saw

503
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: her on the street, which is completely contradictory to what

504
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: he just told the police. So he is admitting that

505
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: he has seen her. He has said I've never given

506
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: her anything. I guess he's trying to absolve himself of

507
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: Maybe the police think I, you know, I'm trying to

508
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: bribe her into going away with me. But I wonder

509
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: if that's actually what happened, and he's letting that slip.

510
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: What do you think?

511
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 2: Well, this kind of goes back to this scenario that

512
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: I brought up of Vera may have just voluntarily gone

513
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: with somebody like Percy. He's somebody that she sees on

514
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: a regular basis. There's a level of comfort there, even

515
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 2: if there isn't a formal if you want to call

516
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 2: it a friendship, but he would be somebody who could

517
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 2: very easily walk up to her while she's out wandering

518
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 2: around and say, hey, I know a shortcut. I'll get

519
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 2: you back home. You know whatever the ruse is. So

520
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 2: you are going to tell me where his house is

521
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,239
Speaker 2: and where he works, right, I'm still waiting for that.

522
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: So he and his wife, Percy and his wife live

523
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: close by, and he has questioned a lot about what

524
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: his whereabouts were that night. So let's go through the

525
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: whereabouts real quick, and then we'll talk about the physical evidence,

526
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: because Billsbury works very hard to connect him. So Percy

527
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: said that the police asked for a detailed description of

528
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: his whereabouts on December fourteenth. He said he had been

529
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: at work as a launderer from eight thirty in the

530
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: morning till five point fifty five pm, with a lunch

531
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: break between one and two pm. The last time she

532
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: was seen happy in a lot was about six forty

533
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: five pm, so he took the bus to and from work,

534
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: but after work he decided to walk home because he

535
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: knew his wife was visiting her mother, and Percy admitted

536
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: that he did not like to be home alone. He

537
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 1: said he made a purchase at Woolworth's and left about

538
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: seven pm, which is about where Vera was shopping. He

539
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: looked at shop windows. On his way home, he passed

540
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: through Stanley Crescent, which is where her beret was found.

541
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 1: The woman found the beret. He went to Blenham Crescent,

542
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: which is near Vera's home, but he was back at

543
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: his house by about eight fifteen, where his wife was

544
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: home waiting, and they went to bed about ten forty five,

545
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: and the wife swears by this. He was home at

546
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 1: eight fifteen, We went to sleep at ten forty five.

547
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: He was with me that whole time. But it leaves

548
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: a big gap between if we even believe that he

549
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: left work at five point fifty five, between five point

550
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: fifty five and eight fifteen, if we believe the wife.

551
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 2: Oh no, for sure. Yeah, So there's this window of

552
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 2: time in which really that overlaps with Vera's travels as

553
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 2: well as Vera's likely abduction time. The question, of course,

554
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: is is where does Vera's body end up and what

555
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 2: does he have access to? He's got access to his

556
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 2: own residence. The wife is out visiting mom at Vera's

557
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: residence right.

558
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 1: After work, decided to walk home because he knew that

559
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: his wife was with her mother, not at Vera's residence.

560
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: Though his parents lived at Vera's residence, we don't know

561
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 1: where her parents lived, but she was.

562
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: Gone, so there is a possibility there's nobody else home

563
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: at his residence. Is it possible that he could have

564
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: taken Vera there and hidden her at his own house

565
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: where the wife what she comes home wouldn't discos Rivera accidentally,

566
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: and could Vera have been kept at that location for

567
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: the time frame that doctor Spillsbury is indicating thirty six hours.

568
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: And then, of course does he have a wheelbarrow that

569
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: matches the description of the wheelbarrow that the witness said.

570
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: Don't jump the gun, Paul, But I have a decomp

571
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: question if this works out. And the last time we

572
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: saw Vera happy was at six forty five, and he says,

573
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: I left Woolworth's near where Vera was around seven o'clock

574
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 1: and his wife, let's say, got home at eight o'clock.

575
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,680
Speaker 1: Is it possible that he actually did this murder in

576
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: the warmth of his house and before his wife got

577
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: home he moved her to the coal cellar, so the reverse,

578
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: so this doesn't happen in a coal seller. She is

579
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: dumped in a coal cellar for safe keeping. Does the

580
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: deep comp that we're talking about still work in that

581
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: way or is it still too cold for the to

582
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: be any kind of decomposition Over an hour however long,

583
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: he didn't have very much time unless he hit her

584
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: like in a closet inside.

585
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 2: Well, there's so many variables to I think be conclusive.

586
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: I'm having to rely upon what you've said that these

587
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: coal sellers, in essence, are you know, they're like freezers.

588
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: Right, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely.

589
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 2: I would be skeptical that Vera's body after thirty six

590
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: hours would be showing anything that Spillsbury would call advanced

591
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: state of decomposition. Okay, now, of course I'm not seeing

592
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 2: the characteristics on her body that he's now saying is

593
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 2: advanced state of composition, because I've seen different pathologists use

594
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: different descriptors. Where one pathologist may say, okay, there's bloating,

595
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: there's some marveling going on, advanced state of decomposition, where

596
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 2: another pathologist may say, well, this is a moderate state

597
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: of decomposition. You know it's not. There isn't a hard

598
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: and fast cutoff. So that's where there could be maybe

599
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: a gray area with spills Berry's assessment using that description,

600
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 2: where it is possible the scenario you're talking about, she

601
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: is killed in the residence upstairs, and then she's down

602
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: in the coal cellar, and of course her even when

603
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: it's cold down there, decomposition does happen. Yeah, it's just

604
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 2: slowed down. So right now, I couldn't say one or

605
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 2: the other scenarios as possible or is more likely. You know,

606
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 2: this is where now, when you have suspect statements and

607
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 2: deconvoluting the statements relative to the crime scene, both from

608
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 2: a timeline standpoint as well as geographic locations, as well

609
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,600
Speaker 2: as some of the oddities. You know, these offenders, if

610
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 2: they had committed the crimes, they will put in details

611
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,879
Speaker 2: that overlap with aspects of the actual crime itself. Let's

612
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: say you have kids that were playing with their dog

613
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 2: out front somewhere that are witnesses in the case, and

614
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: the suspect throws that kind of detail into a statement saying, well,

615
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 2: I was never over there, but I was over here

616
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: and there's some kids with a dog playing playing with

617
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 2: a dog outside, you know. So you start to see

618
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: that kind of merging, and this seems to be what

619
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: Percy's doing to a point. But his geographic locations, his

620
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,440
Speaker 2: criminal history, his physical description, this window of time in

621
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 2: which his wife is not present within his own residence,

622
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: you know, the red flags are going off for me.

623
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 2: And now it's like, Okay, what physical evidence is present

624
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 2: where I can now corroborate that. You know, I've got

625
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: a theory he took Vera back to his own residence

626
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: when wife wasn't home, killed her, and then hit the body.

627
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: Is there physical evidence to support that. If not, what

628
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: other location does he have access to where he could

629
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,239
Speaker 2: have killed and stashed Vera and then went home and

630
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 2: then subsequently got rid of Vera's body thirty six hours later.

631
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,440
Speaker 1: And by the way, what if even one person is

632
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: wrong about the time. What if the life is wrong.

633
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: What if the six forty five pm witness is wrong.

634
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 1: What if he got her at six as soon as

635
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: the school kids left, and he left work earlier than

636
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 1: five point fifty five, which is pretty specific. What if

637
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 1: everybody is off by twenty minutes and then he has

638
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 1: plenty of time. I mean, I hate to bring up

639
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: John Reginald Christy, who is the worst Looney Tune serial

640
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: killer I had ever written about. But he put women

641
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: in his kitchen. He walled them into the kitchen. He

642
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: very quickly put his dead wife under the floorboards of

643
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: their parlor. He stored people there for months, and it

644
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 1: started to get a little stinky. But you know, he

645
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: was able to cover all that up. But let's go

646
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: through the physical evidence that by the end, you're going

647
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,239
Speaker 1: to say all circumstantial, because that's what I think you

648
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 1: might be. I might be wrong, that's what I think.

649
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: So let's just tick through it. We don't have to

650
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 1: spend a ton of time on it. They search his house.

651
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 1: There is a red tablecloth with fringe, which seems like

652
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: the red fabric that the witness said the guy who

653
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: matched his description was carrying in a bundle on this

654
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 1: wheelbarrow cam. But you know, red fringe on a tablecloth

655
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: could have been anything. They find a paraffin rag in

656
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: his coal cellar. He says, I use paraffine all the

657
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: time to clean I was cleaning my stove. As a

658
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: matter of fact. There are candles that seem to match

659
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: the kind of candle wax that were on her jacket.

660
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: They take his coat. They find coal dust. Everybody had

661
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: it on them. But they also find semen on his coat,

662
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: which you know, I don't want to talk about this

663
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 1: too long. Wouldn't have shocked me just as a normal person.

664
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: I mean, is that weird on his jacket?

665
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 2: Well?

666
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: No, without being judgy, and I don't want to talk

667
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 1: about this very much.

668
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: I know, you know, there needs to be more nexus

669
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: between the seamen stain on his own jacket and the

670
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 2: possibility that it has any relationship to do with Vera's

671
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: sexual assault and homicide. Back in nineteen thirty one, they

672
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 2: would not have been able to establish that and not

673
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 2: to be overly gross, but it's not unusual with some

674
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 2: men to find semen their own semen everywhere, so you know,

675
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 2: it's just, yeah, that is gross. Thanks for telling me.

676
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 2: It's it's human nature stuff, right. So that's where it's like, oh,

677
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: he's got semen on his jacket today, we would be going, well,

678
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: is Vera's DNA mixed with that semen?

679
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:33,959
Speaker 1: Right?

680
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 2: Well?

681
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,280
Speaker 1: Moving quickly past the semen on his jacket, they find

682
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: a pajama cord in his pocket, which Spillsbury says could

683
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 1: have been the ligature that we're talking about. He says,

684
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: I used it as a belt, Give me a break.

685
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: But now that we know about the wheelbarrow, is this

686
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: still maybe the theory that he tied it around her

687
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 1: neck postmortem just to make sure that his hands did

688
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,479
Speaker 1: the job and killed her. Or is it some way

689
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: maybe tied her down somehow into the wheelbarrow so she

690
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: wouldn't bobble around and knock the red tablecloth off of

691
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 1: the body as they were going down cobblestone streets.

692
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: There's multiple possibilities. You know, fenders do packaged bodies you know,

693
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: and they'll use binding material and that could leave marks

694
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 2: on these bodies, and it has nothing to do with

695
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 2: the actual commission of the violence. While the victims alive.

696
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 2: The ligature mark on the neck after manual strangulation, you

697
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: know what I talked about in the first episode. I

698
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:35,880
Speaker 2: still think that's a possibility. But also I've seen situations

699
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 2: in which, like, if Rivera is decomposing, you could have

700
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 2: this what we call purging that's coming out of her

701
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: nose in her mouth, even though she has no bleeding injuries,

702
00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 2: you know, with open wounds, but this this type of

703
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: purging that's happening. He may have just tied off a

704
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:54,400
Speaker 2: canvas bag over her head using a form of binding

705
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,359
Speaker 2: material that could have left some of these marks. So

706
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: it just depends. You know, all of that is possibility.

707
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: If I had photographs where I could see what this

708
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 2: ligature mark look like, I could probably better interpret why

709
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,480
Speaker 2: that ligature mark is present.

710
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a big mystery. And another piece of circumstantial

711
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: evidence is, by the way, he did have a bad

712
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: cut on his finger, but people who were launderers did

713
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: and they used ammonia all the time. And his coworker

714
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: said he got it a couple of weeks ago, and

715
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 1: then a couple of others said, I think he recently

716
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: got it useless. Nothing was helpful, and he says, by

717
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 1: the way, I tossed that bandage into my fireplace, so

718
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: it's not my bandage that you found in the crook

719
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,439
Speaker 1: of her arm. More circumstantial evidence, but it all sort

720
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: of paints a portrait that is very ugly of Percy Rush.

721
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 2: The circumstantial evidence, each item by itself really is unimpressive.

722
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: Now you start stacking that evidence, then it gets a

723
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 2: little bit stronger, But right now I don't think it

724
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: rises to the level where I'm absolutely convinced. I am

725
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 2: leaning towards Percy is Vera's killer, no question about it.

726
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:11,720
Speaker 2: But does law enforcement have a strong enough case beyond

727
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: a reasonable doubt? There may be probable cause, but that's weak.

728
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: I personally would want to continue digging down on Percy

729
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 2: and see if I could strengthen this to either further

730
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 2: incriminate him or to exclude him.

731
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it gets a little more complicated because the police

732
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 1: want to know what he did on Tuesday, where the

733
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: Red Beret was, and where he had potentially moved the body,

734
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: and he said, I was at work and then I

735
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: came home by seven fifteen. I was there the whole night,

736
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: and he said, my wife would have woken up in

737
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: the middle of the night if I had left. I

738
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 1: couldn't sneak out. One spouses and alibis, we don't believe him,

739
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: But two, we think that he left early in the

740
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 1: morning and it was raining, and he's not going to

741
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: load a wheelbarrow up with a murder victim and take

742
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: her in the middle of the So I don't think

743
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: that does anything either. It's just difficult because nobody can

744
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: confirm Percy's alibi more circumstantial evidence. He always visited his

745
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 1: parents in Vera's building on Monday nights or Thursday nights,

746
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: and he didn't show up Monday, which was unusual. He

747
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,840
Speaker 1: walked home, which was unusual. So there are things that

748
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: are out of Percy's character that change very specifically when

749
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,800
Speaker 1: Vera Page goes missing and is murdered.

750
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and did he have any connection to what was

751
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: it Stanley Crescent where her red beret and the certificates

752
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 2: were found, So.

753
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: He passed by it. These are all within a mile.

754
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 1: Everything is within a mile of himself, so he didn't

755
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: live there, he passed through it. It didn't seem like

756
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: that was, you know, a place that was significant. I

757
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: don't know why he would have dumped stuff there. We

758
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: still don't know. We're assuming something happened in his coal cellar.

759
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: We know he had access to his house for at

760
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 1: least a few hours before his wife got home. So

761
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think there's less to do with

762
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: Stanley Crescent's and more to do with where he.

763
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: Was under that set of circumstances. That's where I go

764
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 2: back to my original assessment. And he's following Vera as

765
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 2: she's wandering around. She's not seen with a man. You know,

766
00:44:11,560 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: these witnesses don't see her walking with the man, so

767
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: she's by herself and she's last seen near or in

768
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,759
Speaker 2: that Stanley Crescent neighborhood. So now this is where I

769
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:22,720
Speaker 2: think this is where the abduction occurred.

770
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 1: So this was really difficult because police are having a

771
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: hard time doing what you're talking about, which is how

772
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: does he kidnap a girl, sexually assault her, murder her.

773
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: She's in a coal cellar, which is cold, she's in

774
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 1: a warm room over a thirty six hour period, and

775
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 1: he deposits her body. How did all of this actually

776
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: happen and he didn't get caught except that a woman

777
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: who can no longer identify him sees him pushing a wheelbarrow.

778
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:56,320
Speaker 1: She Margaret k tries to identify him in a lineup

779
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 1: and can't do it, which we wouldn't really trust her,

780
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: I don't think anyway. I mean, this is a split second,

781
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: and nobody's significant in her life. But nobody can confirm

782
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: anything about Percy Rush at this point. And now it's maddening.

783
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: It's a horrific case.

784
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 2: All right, and today this is an easy.

785
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: Case and now and it doesn't even get past a

786
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,839
Speaker 1: coroner's inquest. The jury is not convinced that they can

787
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 1: bring him to.

788
00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:27,359
Speaker 2: Trial with the type of circumstantial evidence and the lack

789
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: of true physical evidence. I would have to agree. And

790
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: at this point, you haven't even brought up whether or

791
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 2: not he had access to a wheelbarrow.

792
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: They don't know. They can't confirm it. They can't confirm

793
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 1: the wheelbarrow, they can't match anything because you know DNA.

794
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: They can't confirm any of this stuff, really, and the

795
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 1: timeline is what bothers people the most. Do you believe

796
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 1: his wife, do you believe him. This would have obviously

797
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: been a hanging. This would have been a capital case,

798
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: and they don't want to convict somebody on circumstantial evidence

799
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: that feels strong, but not strong enough. So ultimately he's acquitted.

800
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: Even though they took thousands of statements, they've never been

801
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: able to make an arrest. And now over time the

802
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: police became less convinced that Percy killed Vera. They couldn't

803
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: figure out how the timeline would have ever worked. Margaret

804
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 1: Key tried to come back and say, well, I'm certain

805
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: it was Percy Rush with the wheelbarrow, but it was

806
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: too late and they couldn't use her evidence because she

807
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: couldn't identify him at the time.

808
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: Well you can't even say that Vera was in that wheelbarrow.

809
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: No, So the Pages leave their house eventually, and we

810
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 1: don't know anything about Percy Rush, that he was convicted

811
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: of anything else. Of course that doesn't mean anything, but

812
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: he stays in notting Hill and eventually he dies in

813
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one, and Vera Page's case is still open, unsolved.

814
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: It's a terrible case, but I think we learned a

815
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,279
Speaker 1: lot from this case. I think this was a good

816
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 1: case for.

817
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: Us what is And right now I think Percy is

818
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 2: what I would deem a prime suspect. You know, he's

819
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 2: checking the box. But I've been in this position before

820
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 2: where I'm like, yeah, I've got a prime suspect. It

821
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 2: turns out it's not the guy. Just like with some

822
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: of the other cases that we've talked about, I'm going, well,

823
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: do they still have the physical evidence?

824
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: Yeah?

825
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 2: Do they still have the semen evidence from Vera? You know,

826
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: you may link that back to Percy or today we

827
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: could identify you know who Seemen that is, Yeah, and

828
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: basically identify the killer and see if that's somebody who's

829
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 2: killed other kids across England.

830
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 1: Well, as always, I can't promise anything, but I'm certainly

831
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: trying to pursue those avenues with a lot of the

832
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:40,280
Speaker 1: evidence that we have. So this was a complicated case

833
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: and lots of forensics and unsolved, which I know you like,

834
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: which was why it was a two parter. So thank

835
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,880
Speaker 1: you for joining me on this. And now I have

836
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 1: a little bit of a forensics crush. I think on

837
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: Doctor Spillsbury that I'm now going to go over his

838
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: biography once again and find some more cases because I

839
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: think he knew what the hell he was doing, so

840
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 1: thank you for joining me, Paul Holes on yet another

841
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: adventure in London.

842
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Kate. This was again another compelling and

843
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,240
Speaker 2: at the same time frustrating story.

844
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: Now thank you. This has been an exactly right production

845
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: for our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

846
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,480
Speaker 1: com slash Buried Bones sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

847
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin and Kate Winkler Dawson.

848
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

849
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

850
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

851
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

852
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

853
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:47,720
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

854
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,720
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

855
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decote the

856
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now

857
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

858
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.