Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining me for session four or fifty four of
Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into
Speaker 1: our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Black single
Speaker 1: mothers have long been the subject of stereotypes, political debate,
Speaker 1: and cultural criticism for decades. Narratives in media and public
Speaker 1: discourse have framed them as the root of social problems,
Speaker 1: rather than recognizing the complex realities of their lives, families,
Speaker 1: and communities. But the truth is far more nuanced. Black
Speaker 1: single mothers have always been central to the strength and
Speaker 1: survival of Black communities, Their caregivers, leaders, and culture shapers,
Speaker 1: often raising children, supporting extended family members, and contributing to
Speaker 1: their communities in powerful ways. Today's guest is writer and
Speaker 1: cultural critic Jamila Lemieux, whose work has helped shape conversations
Speaker 1: about race, gender, and culture for more than a decade.
Speaker 1: Beginning our career in the Black feminist blockisphere, Jamila has
Speaker 1: written in edit for many major publications and has become
Speaker 1: known for her short cultural commentary and advocacy for Black
Speaker 1: women and girls. In our conversation, Jamila joins us to
Speaker 1: discuss her new book, Black Single Mother, where she explores
Speaker 1: the realities of single motherhood through her own story as
Speaker 1: well as the stories of other Black women. We talk
Speaker 1: about the stigma attached to single mothers, the importance of
Speaker 1: community and cool parenting, how media narratives shape perceptions of
Speaker 1: black families, and what it means to redefine family structures
Speaker 1: outside of traditional expectations. If something resonates with you while
Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media
Speaker 1: using the hashtag TBG in session, or join us over
Speaker 1: in our patreons to talk more about the episode. You
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Heyja Vila, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us.
Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to share with you. I'm a longtime
Speaker 1: fan of your writing, so I'm very excited to talk
Speaker 1: with you more about your work and about the upcoming book.
Speaker 1: Thank you.
Speaker 2: I'm a longtime fan of yours too, So.
Speaker 1: For people who may not be super familiar, can you
Speaker 1: talk to us in your own words about what your
Speaker 1: work is and what you write about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a writer primarily in the service of black
Speaker 2: women and girls. My professional writing career started around two
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, and I was an early member of
Speaker 2: the Black Feminist Blog, a sphere that really shifted on
Speaker 2: an offline discourse about gender and identity, and I worked
Speaker 2: as an editor for some years. I've edited many of
Speaker 2: your favorite writers, and I am releasing my first book,
Speaker 2: Black Single Mother.
Speaker 1: Yeah. You have written probably lots of pieces that people
Speaker 1: are familiar with, maybe in theme, but don't necessarily know
Speaker 1: that it was your writing. And because your work has
Speaker 1: covered such a va it's like a variety of topics,
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know how did the topic for the
Speaker 1: book become the thing you were going to write your
Speaker 1: first book about.
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. I worked with the literary agent Tanya
Speaker 2: McKinnon for at least five years before we settled down
Speaker 2: on a topic for this book. I had rejected suggestions
Speaker 2: that I should write about black single motherhood because I
Speaker 2: was afraid that if I put my name behind it
Speaker 2: in that way. And I had written about being a
Speaker 2: single mom and essays and talked about it openly on
Speaker 2: social media. It's something about publishing a book on the
Speaker 2: subject to me, felt like that's going to mean that
Speaker 2: I'm a black single mother forever and ever, when that's
Speaker 2: not what I've wanted for myself. I've wanted to be married,
Speaker 2: I've wanted to have an additional child. And so finally
Speaker 2: Tanya convinced me that this was a book that needed
Speaker 2: to exist and that I had a story that needed
Speaker 2: to be told. And I'm very happy that I decided
Speaker 2: to embark upon that journey.
Speaker 1: Do you talk in the book about like the urgency
Speaker 1: that you failed when you had your baby to be
Speaker 1: partnered right to erase this scarlet letter? Can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about that urgency? And as women, we
Speaker 1: often will kind of give ourselves to the validation of
Speaker 1: what other people think we should have as opposed to
Speaker 1: what we actually want for ourselves.
Speaker 2: Yes, no, I felt that, like, Okay, I'm a single mom,
Speaker 2: she's got a great dad. But I somehow have to
Speaker 2: fix this. I need to find a partner, I need
Speaker 2: to get married, I need to wreck fy my mistake.
Speaker 2: I believe that for a while. But I say this,
Speaker 2: at no point in my life, pree motherhood or afterwards,
Speaker 2: have I ever truly settled when it came to a
Speaker 2: committed relationship. So as much as I wanted to be married,
Speaker 2: I wasn't willing to just be with anyone or to
Speaker 2: accept somebody who wouldn't have been a great partner and
Speaker 2: a great stepdad, a great friend to me. So theoretically
Speaker 2: I felt like I needed to hurry up and do this,
Speaker 2: but in reality I took my time and looked forward
Speaker 2: suitable mate.
Speaker 1: And what do you have to say about I mean,
Speaker 1: the book really talks about this in depth, but what
Speaker 1: would you have to say about like just the ways
Speaker 1: that black single mothers are portrayed, especially in our community.
Speaker 2: I mean there's just been this pervasive messaging in media
Speaker 2: from politicians, from preachers for a very long time, suggesting
Speaker 2: that black single mothers are somehow responsible for the challenges
Speaker 2: in the Black community, responsible for the marriage rate, that
Speaker 2: we are the architects of our challenges and it's just
Speaker 2: simply not trip. Outcomes for the children of single parents
Speaker 2: are largely tied to economics. So where people are economically challenged,
Speaker 2: their children are going to face certain challenges. That stands
Speaker 2: whether those parents are married or not. Black single mothers
Speaker 2: at every class level have played a very important role
Speaker 2: in the community, have sustained the children of the community,
Speaker 2: are oftentimes tasked for elders and other relatives in the community,
Speaker 2: and I think we should be celebrated for the heroines
Speaker 2: that we are as opposed to castigated for somehow harming
Speaker 2: our people.
Speaker 1: How do you feel like becoming a mom has changed
Speaker 1: the way that you work in like the ways that
Speaker 1: you critique, the things that you critique.
Speaker 2: I will say this stage your motherhood, having a thirteen
Speaker 2: year old versus the early stages of my motherhood, I
Speaker 2: think it's made me more empathetic. It thinks it's made
Speaker 2: me more patient, and it's made me want to be
Speaker 2: really precise with my words. I don't want to hurt people.
Speaker 2: I don't want to upset them unnecessarily. I want to
Speaker 2: regard people with kindness and understanding to the extent to
Speaker 2: which they deserve it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I follow your social media rants often because I'm
Speaker 1: also a mother in the trenches of middle school parenting,
Speaker 1: and that is often when it feels like, how do
Speaker 1: you feel like you have changed and what have you
Speaker 1: learned about yourself as your little one has grown.
Speaker 2: I'm even more aware of my own humanity and fallibility
Speaker 2: that I am literally just a girl trying to figure
Speaker 2: it out. I may be very influential and important this
Speaker 2: person's life, but I'm a person too, So sometimes I
Speaker 2: fall short. Sometimes I say the wrong thing. I apologize
Speaker 2: to my child. I try to hold myself accountable. Let
Speaker 2: her see me holding myself accountable. I think many of us,
Speaker 2: as children, think that somehow our parents have all the answers.
Speaker 2: And now I'm very clear that my parents, just like
Speaker 2: myself and you, we're making it up as we.
Speaker 1: Go along, just trying to do the very best that
Speaker 1: we can. So we've already talked about your long end
Speaker 1: story career, and because of some of the things that
Speaker 1: you write about, I think, well, I know it has
Speaker 1: made you the target for lots of backlash, lots of
Speaker 1: hate speech, and a text and cyber target. How have
Speaker 1: you maintained your mental health and protected your mental health
Speaker 1: in the face of.
Speaker 2: This times where it took a toll on the I'm
Speaker 2: not as active on social media as I once was.
Speaker 2: I did take some time away to kind of not
Speaker 2: engage with that level of vitrioll and abuse for a while,
Speaker 2: but I'll stay to light throughout it all. I've always
Speaker 2: been convinced that I'm correct. I think I know what
Speaker 2: I'm talking about. I think I'm right, so I feel
Speaker 2: you can attack me if you want to. But nobody's
Speaker 2: ever challenged any of my opinions. Nobody's ever said anything
Speaker 2: in an attack sort of way that made me think
Speaker 2: differently about anything, So they haven't succeeded.
Speaker 1: And much of your work really comes from a lens
Speaker 1: of kind of examining pop culture and like the media
Speaker 1: that we consume and how that provides larger messages. Why
Speaker 1: do you think the lens of pop culture is often
Speaker 1: so focused only on the struggles of black mothers as
Speaker 1: opposed to the joys in the triumphs of black single
Speaker 1: mother I.
Speaker 2: Think there are a lot of decision makers in media, black, white,
Speaker 2: and otherwise who are coming from a place of bias
Speaker 2: and ignorance when it comes to the multi fasted lives
Speaker 2: of black women. Black women more specifically are and particularly
Speaker 2: black single mothers. From what I've come across, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of people that are making TV shows in Hollywood
Speaker 2: that grew up upper middle class, that are coming from
Speaker 2: two parent households and perceive that that is the only
Speaker 2: way that a black family can be effective or successful,
Speaker 2: and so they're doing what they know. They're reflecting what
Speaker 2: they know, but unfortunately what they know does not reflect
Speaker 2: the community at which we live.
Speaker 1: And going back a little bit too, the things that
Speaker 1: you have shared online, has there been a cost to
Speaker 1: you of sharing the messy your points right? Like you
Speaker 1: are very honest about parenting online, has there been a
Speaker 1: cast to sharing those things?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, if there are opportunities or
Speaker 2: things that I've missed out on because of my honesty,
Speaker 2: I was never aware of it. I've wondered, has there
Speaker 2: ever been a man I dated who who decided he
Speaker 2: didn't want to deal with me? Or somebody I might
Speaker 2: have had a crush on who was turned off by
Speaker 2: that I think that's possible, but it's never been presented
Speaker 2: to me directly.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. In a letter
Speaker 1: to your own mom, you asked, how could littelone me
Speaker 1: be the center of anyone's universe? How has your perspective
Speaker 1: shifted since Naima is in the world, and how have
Speaker 1: you balanced like being the center of her universe while
Speaker 1: also wanting to be the center of your words?
Speaker 2: You know, I have so much admiration and gratitude for
Speaker 2: how my mother raised me, but I have chosen to
Speaker 2: operate differently in terms of just having a fuller life
Speaker 2: outside of motherhood, having a career that I'm passionate about, dating, socializing.
Speaker 2: I recognized that my mother and I became mothers a
Speaker 2: very different stages of life, under very different circumstances. Like
Speaker 2: I want Naima to see me as a possibility model.
Speaker 2: That want her to know that, Oh God, I don't
Speaker 2: want to misquote this person, so I won't say it,
Speaker 2: but I just want her to know that motherhood is
Speaker 2: not the end of anything, that it can be the
Speaker 2: beginning of so many things, so many experiences, and I've
Speaker 2: just done my best many times, I've fallen short. For
Speaker 2: the most part, I think I've done a pretty good
Speaker 2: job of making sure that she's the heart and center
Speaker 2: of everything. But everything is more expansive than just the
Speaker 2: relationship I have with her.
Speaker 1: And how do you feel like that is going.
Speaker 2: I think it's going well. There have been times where
Speaker 2: she said, I wish I could just have both my
Speaker 2: parents at the same time. And it's not that we
Speaker 2: don't do things together, but we don't do everything together right.
Speaker 2: You know, times where she's wanted to be a one
Speaker 2: household but it was her day at another. So it's
Speaker 2: not always easy. I think overwhelmingly, I in her father
Speaker 2: have done a really good job of giving her the
Speaker 2: best of each of us.
Speaker 1: So there's a section of your book called the Multiverse
Speaker 1: where you have brought in the stories of lots of
Speaker 1: different single black moms. Why was that important for you
Speaker 1: to do?
Speaker 2: Because you know, it's funny because this the book I wrote,
Speaker 2: was not the book I sold. I had originally envisioned
Speaker 2: chapters that had particular things that they related to the
Speaker 2: lives of black women, and that I would talk to
Speaker 2: a lot of experts, But when it came time to
Speaker 2: sit down and write, I realized the primary experts on
Speaker 2: Black single motherhood and their experiences are going to be
Speaker 2: Black single moms. And some of these women are women
Speaker 2: I probably would have talked to you anyway, right like
Speaker 2: Yaba Bla or Toronto Burke or Tinya Fields. But some
Speaker 2: of them are women who I've known or grew up with,
Speaker 2: or just in my community who had interesting single motherhood stories.
Speaker 2: And I feel that as a single mother, and as
Speaker 2: a child of a single mother, I am privileged in
Speaker 2: a number of ways. I had an active dad. My
Speaker 2: daughter has a much more active dad than I did.
Speaker 2: Active as a spectrum, and it comes to dad's active,
Speaker 2: it was certainly on a spectrum. But I had a
Speaker 2: very present father, and my daughter has a very active dad.
Speaker 2: And that's not always the case. It's something I was
Speaker 2: keenly aware of as a kid. I had so many
Speaker 2: friends who just didn't have fathers. And so because my
Speaker 2: daughter has a great dad, I have help, I have support.
Speaker 2: I'm not doing it every day by myself. And I've
Speaker 2: also worked in media. I'm light complexion and college trained
Speaker 2: and I've been on TV. Like in certain ways, I've
Speaker 2: just had certain privileges that other Black single mothers have not,
Speaker 2: so I didn't feel that one woman's story, or even
Speaker 2: just my story and my mother's story were sufficient for
Speaker 2: me to effectively talk about what it means to be
Speaker 2: a single black mother. I needed to talk to other
Speaker 2: women who were having different experiences and overlapping experiences.
Speaker 1: And what do you feel like you learned from having
Speaker 1: all of those other stories included.
Speaker 2: The firms and like, what we all have in common
Speaker 2: is this deep abiding love for our children, just this
Speaker 2: willingness to do whatever it takes, whatever they need to
Speaker 2: keep them happy and fed and loved.
Speaker 1: You talk publicly about the move that you made from
Speaker 1: New York to Los Angeles and how you were making
Speaker 1: that decision with being a mom in mine right. There
Speaker 1: are also, I think many other of our listeners who
Speaker 1: are considering, like, oh, do I make a move and
Speaker 1: now I'm considering my child's life. What suggestions or advice
Speaker 1: might you have for somebody who's considering a similar move.
Speaker 2: Do not move to a place where you do not
Speaker 2: have a village unless there is some life altering, fabulous
Speaker 2: opportunity that is guaranteed, right Like I was fortunate I
Speaker 2: came here. I had a cousin who has since passed away.
Speaker 2: Who is here? I have my daughter's father and stepmother,
Speaker 2: and that was basically it. I did not have many
Speaker 2: friends here. I had some acquaintances here. The job that
Speaker 2: I was supposed to come here and do disappeared as
Speaker 2: soon as I got here. So if I had it
Speaker 2: to do over again, the only reason I would still
Speaker 2: do it is because of where I am now six
Speaker 2: and a half years later. But six and a half
Speaker 2: years is a long time to struggle and to be
Speaker 2: figuring things out and trying to make friends, and the
Speaker 2: dating scene here sucks, so taking to consideration who's going
Speaker 2: to be around you. I was lucky that my daughter's
Speaker 2: father was also here. This was a joint relocation. I
Speaker 2: would have never moved if I didn't have my co
Speaker 2: heir in here. And even again, it's just like I
Speaker 2: didn't have friends. I didn't have people who cared about me,
Speaker 2: didn't have OJEF, I didn't have anything. So if you
Speaker 2: got a couple friends in Atlanta and you're thinking about
Speaker 2: going from DC to Atlanta, cool. If you don't know
Speaker 2: about any Atlanta, just know that in most places it
Speaker 2: is hard as an adult to start over and meet
Speaker 2: new people. Just really think about what you need in
Speaker 2: your life to feel happy and successful somewhere, and dating
Speaker 2: if that's something that matters to you, and I know
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter to all single moms, but if it
Speaker 2: is something that is a priority to you, take some
Speaker 2: time to find out what dating looks like in the
Speaker 2: place that you're going to.
Speaker 1: That's something that you've been sharing more about, like your
Speaker 1: dating adventures. What would you say about dating as a
Speaker 1: single mom and things that you might suggest us share
Speaker 1: with other people.
Speaker 2: It's been an interesting journey. I will say again, I
Speaker 2: think it's been easier for me because I have a
Speaker 2: great co parent, But like I was a soldier of love.
Speaker 2: I put a lot of time and effort and energy
Speaker 2: into meeting somebody. And if that's something you want to do,
Speaker 2: I think understand how much space in your life do
Speaker 2: you have to give to it, how much does it
Speaker 2: matter to you. It will be more challenging than dating
Speaker 2: as a person without a child, but not impossible. You
Speaker 2: very well may find what you want And what.
Speaker 1: Kinds of considerations have you made in terms of like
Speaker 1: when people met Naima.
Speaker 2: Only two people have met Naima, so they would have
Speaker 2: to be my boyfriend. We would have to be in
Speaker 2: a committed relationship where we're talking about the future and
Speaker 2: the potential of expanding my family. It wouldn't just be
Speaker 2: somebody who's like, he's cool. Theated a guy for like
Speaker 2: seven months, he never met Naima. It would have never
Speaker 2: been appropriate for him to me Naima the guy she
Speaker 2: has met. I wasn't with them for seven months when
Speaker 2: they met her, but I had it been that long,
Speaker 2: but I knew this is somebody who's going to be
Speaker 2: in my life. And the first person I introduced her
Speaker 2: to he was long distance, so it wasn't necessarily like, Okay,
Speaker 2: because you've met him, you're going to see him all
Speaker 2: the time. But he had a big role in my life.
Speaker 2: Man and I cultivated a relationship between them.
Speaker 1: So you mentioned in terms of the move, you should
Speaker 1: not move anywhere where you do not have a village.
Speaker 1: And I think that there are also people who are
Speaker 1: thinking about, like, Okay, I want to build my family,
Speaker 1: Like there are all kinds of technology and advances in
Speaker 1: medicine that allow people to build a family even if
Speaker 1: you do not have a traditional partnership. What suggestions do
Speaker 1: you have for people about how to start building their
Speaker 1: village and like cultivating a community that will help to
Speaker 1: care for you and your child.
Speaker 2: You know, I'll talk to people. One of the moms
Speaker 2: did I interview in the book, Ayana Bird, had a
Speaker 2: child on her own as a single parent from Birds
Speaker 2: and moved to another country. And she's happy and they're thriving.
Speaker 2: So everyone is different. But I think, be honest about
Speaker 2: what do you need? Can you do this in isolation?
Speaker 2: Will you be okay? Some moms. I think my mom
Speaker 2: is one of them. Largely it was just me and her,
Speaker 2: and I think that was amazing for her. But if
Speaker 2: you need something else, if you need somebody to come
Speaker 2: hold that baby a few hours a week, then you
Speaker 2: should think about bringing a child into the world under
Speaker 2: the circumstances in which you can comfortably raise them.
Speaker 1: And in your work, you've talked a lot about like
Speaker 1: shifting from a Eurocentric construction of family back to one
Speaker 1: that is more based in the African matriarchy. What does
Speaker 1: that look like in like the practical data da Scent.
Speaker 2: Remember that like matriarchy doesn't send her mother's the center
Speaker 2: of children, you know. I mean, so it's about like
Speaker 2: creating systems and communities that we need to ensure that
Speaker 2: everyone has what they need right, not just children, not
Speaker 2: just women, but everyone. But like being intentional, like being
Speaker 2: a girl's girl, supporting other women, showing up for mothers
Speaker 2: before you become one, showing up your girlfriends, not thinking
Speaker 2: that because you're in a relationship now, you don't need
Speaker 2: to go see your girls, go pick your single girl
Speaker 2: up from the airport at midnight, because somebody needs to
Speaker 2: do that. I think this shift toward matriarchy that we're
Speaker 2: saying the very least on social media and people talking
Speaker 2: about like what that means is essential to the survival
Speaker 2: of Black people because this is where we come from.
Speaker 2: Women led doesn't mean that there's no role for men, right,
Speaker 2: and that men are not leaders and important and essential
Speaker 2: to what we're doing. But I think we do need
Speaker 2: to return to this foundation that we have of women
Speaker 2: being loved and supported and trusted as leaders and in
Speaker 2: many ways the moral compass of our people.
Speaker 1: Why do you think there has been so much hesitance
Speaker 1: in resistance to that kind of frame.
Speaker 2: It's white supremacist patriarchy. We've been indoctrinated, We've been told
Speaker 2: that the only way to be a family is with
Speaker 2: the man in the front, the woman in the bag.
Speaker 2: We're emulating our oppressor and what we've seen him do,
Speaker 2: so we're not necessarily thinking first about loving healthy relationships.
Speaker 2: We're thinking about a man on the top woman underneath him,
Speaker 2: and that definitely just doesn't reflect who we are as
Speaker 2: a people and what our experiences have been. And when
Speaker 2: I think of the families that I know that have
Speaker 2: been most successful, regardless of their income level, that's just
Speaker 2: never been what it looked like for them.
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, what are your
Speaker 1: hopes for how people will engage with your book? What
Speaker 1: do you hope that people will take away from it?
Speaker 2: I want people to reconsider their thoughts and actions as
Speaker 2: it relates to black single moms. Most urgently, how are
Speaker 2: you showing up with the black single moms in your life?
Speaker 2: How are you supporting them and questioning what are those
Speaker 2: attitudes that you have about them and what are your
Speaker 2: biases that That's what I want most. I want people
Speaker 2: to tip their hat. And this does happen sometimes I'm
Speaker 2: not gonna say it never happens, because I think a
Speaker 2: young man gets draft to the NBA or the NFL
Speaker 2: and it's like my single mom got me here, and
Speaker 2: we support that. But oftentimes, unless we're hearing one of
Speaker 2: those stories or somebody succeeding fabulously, when we hear about
Speaker 2: single moms, we have this distaste, we have this negative reaction.
Speaker 2: We don't feel compelled to serve them. And I think
Speaker 2: that's the problem.
Speaker 1: Mmmm. We talk a lot and hear a lot about
Speaker 1: like breaking generational cycles, breaking generations, curses. What do you
Speaker 1: feel like that actually looks like day to day.
Speaker 2: I think it's recognizing what went right and what went
Speaker 2: wrong in your lineage and your own experiences and your parents' experiences,
Speaker 2: and making choices to adjust according I'm a second generation
Speaker 2: single mother. I don't think that's a curse, you know.
Speaker 2: I don't think that me not being married to my
Speaker 2: daughter's father has cursed my child. And I want for
Speaker 2: my child to become a mother under the circumstances she
Speaker 2: most desires. That's what I want for her. But if
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen a way, I want her to be
Speaker 2: successful and be supported either way.
Speaker 1: If there was something that you could go back to
Speaker 1: your eighteen year old self and tell her about the
Speaker 1: milfy baby mama that you would become in the future,
Speaker 1: what would you say to her?
Speaker 2: I would just say, why shouldall girl like you have
Speaker 2: no idea? Eighteen year old me could not have seen
Speaker 2: this version of me coming at all. I don't know
Speaker 2: if there's anything I could have said to her that
Speaker 2: would have prepared her, But I think I might have
Speaker 2: said what the incredible Bebby Smith says often, which is
Speaker 2: it gets greater later.
Speaker 1: When you hear the phrase black single mother, what do
Speaker 1: you think people assume and what do they miss?
Speaker 2: I think they are so irresponsible. I think they have
Speaker 2: so struggle, and I think that what they miss is nuance.
Speaker 2: There are so many ways in which a woman can
Speaker 2: become a single mother, right. She can choose it, she
Speaker 2: can break up with the partner, she can become widowed,
Speaker 2: her man can become incarcerated. We all got here in
Speaker 2: so many different ways. And it's this same because there's
Speaker 2: this idea that being married will protect you somehow, right,
Speaker 2: And it's like I see how people talk about divorced
Speaker 2: single moms online too. There's not much more respect for
Speaker 2: them than there is for women who have been single
Speaker 2: moms since birth right or who were never married to
Speaker 2: the children's fathers. So I think it's important that those
Speaker 2: of us are single moms stop looking for any sort
Speaker 2: of external validation of our motherhood and just pay attention
Speaker 2: to the examples around us. And if we're being honest
Speaker 2: about history, single mothers have been performing, have been raising happy,
Speaker 2: healthy children, have achieved great things, and deserve to be
Speaker 2: treated with the same amount of respect as anyone else.
Speaker 1: What kinds of things and supports have really helped you
Speaker 1: to get more comfortable in validating your own experience as
Speaker 1: a mom.
Speaker 2: Talking to other black women, The fact that I've had
Speaker 2: a platform throughout my motherhood. I've been able to communicate
Speaker 2: on social media. I've been able to fire off random
Speaker 2: thoughts about single motherhood and be affirmed and know that
Speaker 2: other people were connecting to these experiences too. I haven't
Speaker 2: had to do this in isolation.
Speaker 1: What part of your experience as a single mother do
Speaker 1: you feel like people are least prepared to hear.
Speaker 2: People probably least prepared to hear me take accountability for
Speaker 2: the downfall of my relationship with my daughter's father, Like
Speaker 2: I own the fact that I'm the woe who mester,
Speaker 2: you know, And ultimately I think we were incompatible. I
Speaker 2: think we were very young, not all about shame and
Speaker 2: blame for me. But if you're shame of blame, the
Speaker 2: majority of it goes on me, and that's okay. I
Speaker 2: don't have a problem saying that there are single mothers
Speaker 2: who end up single mothers because they weren't great girlfriends
Speaker 2: or wives, And that's okay, right, because we know of
Speaker 2: many people who are single fathers or you know, who
Speaker 2: have created single mothers because they were bad partners, bad boyfriend's,
Speaker 2: bad husbands. But I don't think that we wone create
Speaker 2: space for women to have also messed up in relationships
Speaker 2: and owned that. But too like even when men have
Speaker 2: been the villains of those situations, we don't look at
Speaker 2: them as if they've somehow done something wrong. But any
Speaker 2: single law short of a widow is essentially seen as
Speaker 2: somehow being the architect and being wrong and having failed
Speaker 2: some way. So I will take responsibility for what I
Speaker 2: did do wrong that relationship, but at the same time,
Speaker 2: I am not a failure because I may have failed
Speaker 2: my boyfriend.
Speaker 1: What do you think it will take to have a
Speaker 1: shift in the ways that people think about single moms
Speaker 1: and making the mom the villain as opposed to the fault.
Speaker 2: I think it's going to take an increased invisibility and
Speaker 2: popular culture of single mothers, and I think that white
Speaker 2: women are going to be essential to this. More and
Speaker 2: more of them across the world are choosing single motherhood,
Speaker 2: They're choosing not to be married, and that is going
Speaker 2: to lead to increased reporting, increased study, hopefully increase resources,
Speaker 2: but certainly increased the tension. And I think that Black
Speaker 2: women have to remind people that we've been doing this
Speaker 2: work for a long time, where the blueprint for single motherhood.
Speaker 2: But we're going to also have to be unashamed and
Speaker 2: be proud. I think it's really interesting. I can name
Speaker 2: a lot of writers who are or were black single mothers,
Speaker 2: but none of them publish a book about black single motherhood.
Speaker 1: And do you feel like that's connected to your own
Speaker 1: back against writing about it?
Speaker 2: And as I think plenty of them were dealing with
Speaker 2: the same shame, the same even if they didn't feel
Speaker 2: personally ashamed or guilty that they didn't want to be
Speaker 2: associated with the stereotypes. They didn't want to deal with
Speaker 2: the backlash you didn't want to hear from the podcast bros.
Speaker 1: Oh goodsh Do you feel like there is a difference
Speaker 1: in the ways that we talk about in like the
Speaker 1: perceptions of moms who are single moms because of like
Speaker 1: a relationship not working, versus people who become single moms
Speaker 1: because of something like IVA.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I rarely. I'm not a woman who's done IVA
Speaker 2: for IBI, so I can't speak for their experiences, but
Speaker 2: I don't hear them being criticized in the same way
Speaker 2: that women who were in a relationship they failed are
Speaker 2: being criticized, Which is interesting because if single mother is
Speaker 2: inherently wrong, win't choosing it without a father being present
Speaker 2: at all be just as bad? And like, yes, there've
Speaker 2: been people on the religious right who've criticized it, and
Speaker 2: maybe that's the level of intention that goes into in
Speaker 2: vitual fertilization or IVI that like people respect that differently
Speaker 2: than they do somebody who ends up a single mother unintentionally.
Speaker 2: But I do think that as more women choose IVF,
Speaker 2: I'm curious to see will there be more scrutiny on
Speaker 2: with this whole male loneliness epidemic and men are not
Speaker 2: getting partnered. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the
Speaker 2: backlash that we've experienced does get translated or get a
Speaker 2: sign to women who chosen single motherhood from birth.
Speaker 1: Mm hm. You mentioned the podcast brows and we both
Speaker 1: smirked because it feels like they're just freaking havoc in
Speaker 1: so many different ways. Why do you feel like black
Speaker 1: single mothers have become such a topic and a target
Speaker 1: for a lot of them and a lot of the
Speaker 1: conversations they.
Speaker 2: Have, we're easy to punch down on. There's already this
Speaker 2: distaste for us, and I praise the rooms for that.
Speaker 2: Back to the moyang Am report in the book and
Speaker 2: talk about like this history of blaming black single mothers
Speaker 2: for the state of the community. But when I think
Speaker 2: of not just the black podcast bros, but the white ones,
Speaker 2: single mothers are often a punching bag because it's a
Speaker 2: group of people that folks, no matter what their politics,
Speaker 2: oftentimes feel comfortable attacking. It's a woman who is defined
Speaker 2: by her relationship to a man, who's existing in the
Speaker 2: absence presumably of a man. Right she's unclaimed, she's unchosen,
Speaker 2: so whether she's divorced, whether hear her boyfriend broke up somehow,
Speaker 2: she's doing something that you're supposed to do in the
Speaker 2: context of a marriage, and she doesn't belong to anyone
Speaker 2: allegedly right, So we're just easy to target, and for
Speaker 2: so long, so few people have been willing to defend us.
Speaker 1: How are you feeling as it gets closer to the
Speaker 1: book's release. I mean, you're somebody who's written so much,
Speaker 1: but I think that there's something that's very special about
Speaker 1: like having your first book be out in the world.
Speaker 1: How are you feeling leading up to the room.
Speaker 2: I'm excited, nervous. I'm scared about my parents reading it.
Speaker 2: I'm going through all the emotions.
Speaker 1: What are you worried about in terms of your parents
Speaker 1: reading it?
Speaker 2: I tell the story of their relationship, and I think
Speaker 2: that I was very generous and I don't print all
Speaker 2: the sort of details, but I am honest about the
Speaker 2: things that happen in our family that are uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: And so what are you expecting in terms of their.
Speaker 2: Reaction, either embrace or estrangement.
Speaker 1: We'll see. We'll see, oh not oh not a strangent.
Speaker 1: So let us know where we can stay connected with you, Jamila.
Speaker 1: What is your website? Where can we grab our coffee
Speaker 1: of the book and how do we stay connection?
Speaker 2: So my website is Jamila Lamut dot com. There are
Speaker 2: more updates to come, but the basic stuff is there now.
Speaker 2: I am active on Instagram and threads at jamil Lamute,
Speaker 2: and my book Black Single Mother is available where books
Speaker 2: are sold. You can get it from all the major retailers.
Speaker 2: You can also get it from a number of any booksellers,
Speaker 2: including the Reparations Club in La Cafe con Lei Roads
Speaker 2: in Brooklyn, Colin Response in Chicago, and Kinder Spirits in Houston.
Speaker 2: And many of these places also have it available for
Speaker 2: sale online so you can order it. I can order
Speaker 2: it from Reparations Club. They will ship you a signed copy.
Speaker 1: And you will also be on tour, so if people
Speaker 1: want to come and see you talk about the book,
Speaker 1: they can also look up on your website to find tickets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right now. The tour information is on my
Speaker 2: Instagram and Thrance pages. I will eventually update my website,
Speaker 2: but I've got a number of dates. I'm doing Ladilli,
Speaker 2: New York, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, and we're working on DC
Speaker 2: and Chicago perfect well.
Speaker 1: We will be sure to include all of that in
Speaker 1: the show notes for your episode. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for sending some time with us today.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Jamila was able to join me for
Speaker 1: today's conversation. To learn more about her and her work,
Speaker 1: or to grab a copy of her book, be sure
Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot
Speaker 1: com slash Session four fifty four, and don't forget to
Speaker 1: text this episode to two of your girls right now
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Speaker 1: behind the scenes content and much more. You can't wait
Speaker 1: to see you inside. You can join us at community
Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced
Speaker 1: by Elise Ellis, Indiechubo and Tyree Rush. Editing was done
Speaker 1: by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation
Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take good care,