1
00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

2
00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

3
00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,480
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

4
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,600
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

5
00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,040
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

6
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,600
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

7
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:39,440
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

8
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,479
Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

9
00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,400
Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

10
00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:57,240
Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

11
00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,280
Speaker 1: for joining me for session four or fifty four of

12
00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,440
Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into

13
00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:15,279
Speaker 1: our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Black single

14
00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 1: mothers have long been the subject of stereotypes, political debate,

15
00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,800
Speaker 1: and cultural criticism for decades. Narratives in media and public

16
00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:25,479
Speaker 1: discourse have framed them as the root of social problems,

17
00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:29,320
Speaker 1: rather than recognizing the complex realities of their lives, families,

18
00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,360
Speaker 1: and communities. But the truth is far more nuanced. Black

19
00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,679
Speaker 1: single mothers have always been central to the strength and

20
00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,000
Speaker 1: survival of Black communities, Their caregivers, leaders, and culture shapers,

21
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:44,200
Speaker 1: often raising children, supporting extended family members, and contributing to

22
00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 1: their communities in powerful ways. Today's guest is writer and

23
00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:52,280
Speaker 1: cultural critic Jamila Lemieux, whose work has helped shape conversations

24
00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,480
Speaker 1: about race, gender, and culture for more than a decade.

25
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,280
Speaker 1: Beginning our career in the Black feminist blockisphere, Jamila has

26
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,640
Speaker 1: written in edit for many major publications and has become

27
00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,880
Speaker 1: known for her short cultural commentary and advocacy for Black

28
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,920
Speaker 1: women and girls. In our conversation, Jamila joins us to

29
00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 1: discuss her new book, Black Single Mother, where she explores

30
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,560
Speaker 1: the realities of single motherhood through her own story as

31
00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 1: well as the stories of other Black women. We talk

32
00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,200
Speaker 1: about the stigma attached to single mothers, the importance of

33
00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 1: community and cool parenting, how media narratives shape perceptions of

34
00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,680
Speaker 1: black families, and what it means to redefine family structures

35
00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,919
Speaker 1: outside of traditional expectations. If something resonates with you while

36
00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,160
Speaker 1: enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social media

37
00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,280
Speaker 1: using the hashtag TBG in session, or join us over

38
00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 1: in our patreons to talk more about the episode. You

39
00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:47,120
Speaker 1: can join us at community dot therapy for Blackgirls dot com.

40
00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:55,560
Speaker 1: Here's our conversation. Heyja Vila, thank you so much for

41
00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:56,200
Speaker 1: joining us.

42
00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:58,120
Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me.

43
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,080
Speaker 1: I'm very excited to share with you. I'm a longtime

44
00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,520
Speaker 1: fan of your writing, so I'm very excited to talk

45
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,919
Speaker 1: with you more about your work and about the upcoming book.

46
00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:06,679
Speaker 1: Thank you.

47
00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 2: I'm a longtime fan of yours too, So.

48
00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,000
Speaker 1: For people who may not be super familiar, can you

49
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:14,040
Speaker 1: talk to us in your own words about what your

50
00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:15,560
Speaker 1: work is and what you write about.

51
00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:19,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a writer primarily in the service of black

52
00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,919
Speaker 2: women and girls. My professional writing career started around two

53
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:28,600
Speaker 2: thousand and eight, and I was an early member of

54
00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,400
Speaker 2: the Black Feminist Blog, a sphere that really shifted on

55
00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:40,120
Speaker 2: an offline discourse about gender and identity, and I worked

56
00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,880
Speaker 2: as an editor for some years. I've edited many of

57
00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:48,160
Speaker 2: your favorite writers, and I am releasing my first book,

58
00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:49,400
Speaker 2: Black Single Mother.

59
00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. You have written probably lots of pieces that people

60
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,320
Speaker 1: are familiar with, maybe in theme, but don't necessarily know

61
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,760
Speaker 1: that it was your writing. And because your work has

62
00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,119
Speaker 1: covered such a va it's like a variety of topics,

63
00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,240
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know how did the topic for the

64
00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,600
Speaker 1: book become the thing you were going to write your

65
00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 1: first book about.

66
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. I worked with the literary agent Tanya

67
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:16,279
Speaker 2: McKinnon for at least five years before we settled down

68
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:21,560
Speaker 2: on a topic for this book. I had rejected suggestions

69
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,720
Speaker 2: that I should write about black single motherhood because I

70
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,840
Speaker 2: was afraid that if I put my name behind it

71
00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 2: in that way. And I had written about being a

72
00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,400
Speaker 2: single mom and essays and talked about it openly on

73
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 2: social media. It's something about publishing a book on the

74
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,800
Speaker 2: subject to me, felt like that's going to mean that

75
00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 2: I'm a black single mother forever and ever, when that's

76
00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,640
Speaker 2: not what I've wanted for myself. I've wanted to be married,

77
00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:48,600
Speaker 2: I've wanted to have an additional child. And so finally

78
00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,119
Speaker 2: Tanya convinced me that this was a book that needed

79
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,480
Speaker 2: to exist and that I had a story that needed

80
00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:58,520
Speaker 2: to be told. And I'm very happy that I decided

81
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,000
Speaker 2: to embark upon that journey.

82
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,240
Speaker 1: Do you talk in the book about like the urgency

83
00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,599
Speaker 1: that you failed when you had your baby to be

84
00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 1: partnered right to erase this scarlet letter? Can you talk

85
00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,320
Speaker 1: a little bit about that urgency? And as women, we

86
00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,080
Speaker 1: often will kind of give ourselves to the validation of

87
00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,200
Speaker 1: what other people think we should have as opposed to

88
00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:17,880
Speaker 1: what we actually want for ourselves.

89
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,479
Speaker 2: Yes, no, I felt that, like, Okay, I'm a single mom,

90
00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,400
Speaker 2: she's got a great dad. But I somehow have to

91
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,480
Speaker 2: fix this. I need to find a partner, I need

92
00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,440
Speaker 2: to get married, I need to wreck fy my mistake.

93
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,800
Speaker 2: I believe that for a while. But I say this,

94
00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:36,600
Speaker 2: at no point in my life, pree motherhood or afterwards,

95
00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,440
Speaker 2: have I ever truly settled when it came to a

96
00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 2: committed relationship. So as much as I wanted to be married,

97
00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,680
Speaker 2: I wasn't willing to just be with anyone or to

98
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,520
Speaker 2: accept somebody who wouldn't have been a great partner and

99
00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,080
Speaker 2: a great stepdad, a great friend to me. So theoretically

100
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:55,560
Speaker 2: I felt like I needed to hurry up and do this,

101
00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,720
Speaker 2: but in reality I took my time and looked forward

102
00:05:58,800 --> 00:05:59,680
Speaker 2: suitable mate.

103
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:01,920
Speaker 1: And what do you have to say about I mean,

104
00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,440
Speaker 1: the book really talks about this in depth, but what

105
00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:07,279
Speaker 1: would you have to say about like just the ways

106
00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,280
Speaker 1: that black single mothers are portrayed, especially in our community.

107
00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,600
Speaker 2: I mean there's just been this pervasive messaging in media

108
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 2: from politicians, from preachers for a very long time, suggesting

109
00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,719
Speaker 2: that black single mothers are somehow responsible for the challenges

110
00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:27,920
Speaker 2: in the Black community, responsible for the marriage rate, that

111
00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,599
Speaker 2: we are the architects of our challenges and it's just

112
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,440
Speaker 2: simply not trip. Outcomes for the children of single parents

113
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:43,520
Speaker 2: are largely tied to economics. So where people are economically challenged,

114
00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,680
Speaker 2: their children are going to face certain challenges. That stands

115
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,360
Speaker 2: whether those parents are married or not. Black single mothers

116
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:55,280
Speaker 2: at every class level have played a very important role

117
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,400
Speaker 2: in the community, have sustained the children of the community,

118
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,760
Speaker 2: are oftentimes tasked for elders and other relatives in the community,

119
00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,240
Speaker 2: and I think we should be celebrated for the heroines

120
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:11,360
Speaker 2: that we are as opposed to castigated for somehow harming

121
00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:11,920
Speaker 2: our people.

122
00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 1: How do you feel like becoming a mom has changed

123
00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,040
Speaker 1: the way that you work in like the ways that

124
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 1: you critique, the things that you critique.

125
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,239
Speaker 2: I will say this stage your motherhood, having a thirteen

126
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 2: year old versus the early stages of my motherhood, I

127
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,560
Speaker 2: think it's made me more empathetic. It thinks it's made

128
00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 2: me more patient, and it's made me want to be

129
00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,080
Speaker 2: really precise with my words. I don't want to hurt people.

130
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 2: I don't want to upset them unnecessarily. I want to

131
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:45,000
Speaker 2: regard people with kindness and understanding to the extent to

132
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 2: which they deserve it.

133
00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:50,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I follow your social media rants often because I'm

134
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,840
Speaker 1: also a mother in the trenches of middle school parenting,

135
00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 1: and that is often when it feels like, how do

136
00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:59,000
Speaker 1: you feel like you have changed and what have you

137
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: learned about yourself as your little one has grown.

138
00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:07,880
Speaker 2: I'm even more aware of my own humanity and fallibility

139
00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,360
Speaker 2: that I am literally just a girl trying to figure

140
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,840
Speaker 2: it out. I may be very influential and important this

141
00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,560
Speaker 2: person's life, but I'm a person too, So sometimes I

142
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,080
Speaker 2: fall short. Sometimes I say the wrong thing. I apologize

143
00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,640
Speaker 2: to my child. I try to hold myself accountable. Let

144
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,560
Speaker 2: her see me holding myself accountable. I think many of us,

145
00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 2: as children, think that somehow our parents have all the answers.

146
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 2: And now I'm very clear that my parents, just like

147
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,280
Speaker 2: myself and you, we're making it up as we.

148
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,720
Speaker 1: Go along, just trying to do the very best that

149
00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:43,360
Speaker 1: we can. So we've already talked about your long end

150
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,040
Speaker 1: story career, and because of some of the things that

151
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,480
Speaker 1: you write about, I think, well, I know it has

152
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,439
Speaker 1: made you the target for lots of backlash, lots of

153
00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,440
Speaker 1: hate speech, and a text and cyber target. How have

154
00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,680
Speaker 1: you maintained your mental health and protected your mental health

155
00:08:58,679 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 1: in the face of.

156
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,720
Speaker 2: This times where it took a toll on the I'm

157
00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,600
Speaker 2: not as active on social media as I once was.

158
00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: I did take some time away to kind of not

159
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 2: engage with that level of vitrioll and abuse for a while,

160
00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,439
Speaker 2: but I'll stay to light throughout it all. I've always

161
00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,599
Speaker 2: been convinced that I'm correct. I think I know what

162
00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:21,559
Speaker 2: I'm talking about. I think I'm right, so I feel

163
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,600
Speaker 2: you can attack me if you want to. But nobody's

164
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,920
Speaker 2: ever challenged any of my opinions. Nobody's ever said anything

165
00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,040
Speaker 2: in an attack sort of way that made me think

166
00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:34,440
Speaker 2: differently about anything, So they haven't succeeded.

167
00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:36,680
Speaker 1: And much of your work really comes from a lens

168
00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:39,000
Speaker 1: of kind of examining pop culture and like the media

169
00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:42,760
Speaker 1: that we consume and how that provides larger messages. Why

170
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,160
Speaker 1: do you think the lens of pop culture is often

171
00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:48,319
Speaker 1: so focused only on the struggles of black mothers as

172
00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,360
Speaker 1: opposed to the joys in the triumphs of black single

173
00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:51,880
Speaker 1: mother I.

174
00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 2: Think there are a lot of decision makers in media, black, white,

175
00:09:55,480 --> 00:10:01,240
Speaker 2: and otherwise who are coming from a place of bias

176
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,920
Speaker 2: and ignorance when it comes to the multi fasted lives

177
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:09,079
Speaker 2: of black women. Black women more specifically are and particularly

178
00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,600
Speaker 2: black single mothers. From what I've come across, there's a

179
00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 2: lot of people that are making TV shows in Hollywood

180
00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,000
Speaker 2: that grew up upper middle class, that are coming from

181
00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:21,600
Speaker 2: two parent households and perceive that that is the only

182
00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 2: way that a black family can be effective or successful,

183
00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,880
Speaker 2: and so they're doing what they know. They're reflecting what

184
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,319
Speaker 2: they know, but unfortunately what they know does not reflect

185
00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 2: the community at which we live.

186
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,720
Speaker 1: And going back a little bit too, the things that

187
00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,200
Speaker 1: you have shared online, has there been a cost to

188
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 1: you of sharing the messy your points right? Like you

189
00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,680
Speaker 1: are very honest about parenting online, has there been a

190
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:45,120
Speaker 1: cast to sharing those things?

191
00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:50,280
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, if there are opportunities or

192
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,679
Speaker 2: things that I've missed out on because of my honesty,

193
00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 2: I was never aware of it. I've wondered, has there

194
00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 2: ever been a man I dated who who decided he

195
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 2: didn't want to deal with me? Or somebody I might

196
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,400
Speaker 2: have had a crush on who was turned off by

197
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 2: that I think that's possible, but it's never been presented

198
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,040
Speaker 2: to me directly.

199
00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:23,920
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. In a letter

200
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,679
Speaker 1: to your own mom, you asked, how could littelone me

201
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,319
Speaker 1: be the center of anyone's universe? How has your perspective

202
00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,440
Speaker 1: shifted since Naima is in the world, and how have

203
00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 1: you balanced like being the center of her universe while

204
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,600
Speaker 1: also wanting to be the center of your words?

205
00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:43,040
Speaker 2: You know, I have so much admiration and gratitude for

206
00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,720
Speaker 2: how my mother raised me, but I have chosen to

207
00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,200
Speaker 2: operate differently in terms of just having a fuller life

208
00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 2: outside of motherhood, having a career that I'm passionate about, dating, socializing.

209
00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,680
Speaker 2: I recognized that my mother and I became mothers a

210
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,440
Speaker 2: very different stages of life, under very different circumstances. Like

211
00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,800
Speaker 2: I want Naima to see me as a possibility model.

212
00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:12,199
Speaker 2: That want her to know that, Oh God, I don't

213
00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:13,880
Speaker 2: want to misquote this person, so I won't say it,

214
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 2: but I just want her to know that motherhood is

215
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,240
Speaker 2: not the end of anything, that it can be the

216
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,720
Speaker 2: beginning of so many things, so many experiences, and I've

217
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 2: just done my best many times, I've fallen short. For

218
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,440
Speaker 2: the most part, I think I've done a pretty good

219
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,360
Speaker 2: job of making sure that she's the heart and center

220
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:37,000
Speaker 2: of everything. But everything is more expansive than just the

221
00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 2: relationship I have with her.

222
00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,200
Speaker 1: And how do you feel like that is going.

223
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,600
Speaker 2: I think it's going well. There have been times where

224
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,080
Speaker 2: she said, I wish I could just have both my

225
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,040
Speaker 2: parents at the same time. And it's not that we

226
00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:50,920
Speaker 2: don't do things together, but we don't do everything together right.

227
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,560
Speaker 2: You know, times where she's wanted to be a one

228
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 2: household but it was her day at another. So it's

229
00:12:55,920 --> 00:13:00,200
Speaker 2: not always easy. I think overwhelmingly, I in her father

230
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 2: have done a really good job of giving her the

231
00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:04,480
Speaker 2: best of each of us.

232
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,120
Speaker 1: So there's a section of your book called the Multiverse

233
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:09,839
Speaker 1: where you have brought in the stories of lots of

234
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 1: different single black moms. Why was that important for you

235
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:12,840
Speaker 1: to do?

236
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 2: Because you know, it's funny because this the book I wrote,

237
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,439
Speaker 2: was not the book I sold. I had originally envisioned

238
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,440
Speaker 2: chapters that had particular things that they related to the

239
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,360
Speaker 2: lives of black women, and that I would talk to

240
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,760
Speaker 2: a lot of experts, But when it came time to

241
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,680
Speaker 2: sit down and write, I realized the primary experts on

242
00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,199
Speaker 2: Black single motherhood and their experiences are going to be

243
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,160
Speaker 2: Black single moms. And some of these women are women

244
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,320
Speaker 2: I probably would have talked to you anyway, right like

245
00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,160
Speaker 2: Yaba Bla or Toronto Burke or Tinya Fields. But some

246
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,760
Speaker 2: of them are women who I've known or grew up with,

247
00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,920
Speaker 2: or just in my community who had interesting single motherhood stories.

248
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,280
Speaker 2: And I feel that as a single mother, and as

249
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,880
Speaker 2: a child of a single mother, I am privileged in

250
00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,520
Speaker 2: a number of ways. I had an active dad. My

251
00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,040
Speaker 2: daughter has a much more active dad than I did.

252
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:08,360
Speaker 2: Active as a spectrum, and it comes to dad's active,

253
00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,440
Speaker 2: it was certainly on a spectrum. But I had a

254
00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,360
Speaker 2: very present father, and my daughter has a very active dad.

255
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,880
Speaker 2: And that's not always the case. It's something I was

256
00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:17,840
Speaker 2: keenly aware of as a kid. I had so many

257
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,360
Speaker 2: friends who just didn't have fathers. And so because my

258
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,120
Speaker 2: daughter has a great dad, I have help, I have support.

259
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,360
Speaker 2: I'm not doing it every day by myself. And I've

260
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,680
Speaker 2: also worked in media. I'm light complexion and college trained

261
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,920
Speaker 2: and I've been on TV. Like in certain ways, I've

262
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:40,160
Speaker 2: just had certain privileges that other Black single mothers have not,

263
00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 2: so I didn't feel that one woman's story, or even

264
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,160
Speaker 2: just my story and my mother's story were sufficient for

265
00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,000
Speaker 2: me to effectively talk about what it means to be

266
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:51,320
Speaker 2: a single black mother. I needed to talk to other

267
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 2: women who were having different experiences and overlapping experiences.

268
00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,240
Speaker 1: And what do you feel like you learned from having

269
00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,320
Speaker 1: all of those other stories included.

270
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,400
Speaker 2: The firms and like, what we all have in common

271
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,240
Speaker 2: is this deep abiding love for our children, just this

272
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,680
Speaker 2: willingness to do whatever it takes, whatever they need to

273
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 2: keep them happy and fed and loved.

274
00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,440
Speaker 1: You talk publicly about the move that you made from

275
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 1: New York to Los Angeles and how you were making

276
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:21,560
Speaker 1: that decision with being a mom in mine right. There

277
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 1: are also, I think many other of our listeners who

278
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,320
Speaker 1: are considering, like, oh, do I make a move and

279
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,680
Speaker 1: now I'm considering my child's life. What suggestions or advice

280
00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,080
Speaker 1: might you have for somebody who's considering a similar move.

281
00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,080
Speaker 2: Do not move to a place where you do not

282
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:42,400
Speaker 2: have a village unless there is some life altering, fabulous

283
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:47,880
Speaker 2: opportunity that is guaranteed, right Like I was fortunate I

284
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,560
Speaker 2: came here. I had a cousin who has since passed away.

285
00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,200
Speaker 2: Who is here? I have my daughter's father and stepmother,

286
00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 2: and that was basically it. I did not have many

287
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,000
Speaker 2: friends here. I had some acquaintances here. The job that

288
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,840
Speaker 2: I was supposed to come here and do disappeared as

289
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,560
Speaker 2: soon as I got here. So if I had it

290
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,280
Speaker 2: to do over again, the only reason I would still

291
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,680
Speaker 2: do it is because of where I am now six

292
00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,280
Speaker 2: and a half years later. But six and a half

293
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,480
Speaker 2: years is a long time to struggle and to be

294
00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,520
Speaker 2: figuring things out and trying to make friends, and the

295
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 2: dating scene here sucks, so taking to consideration who's going

296
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 2: to be around you. I was lucky that my daughter's

297
00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 2: father was also here. This was a joint relocation. I

298
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 2: would have never moved if I didn't have my co

299
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 2: heir in here. And even again, it's just like I

300
00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,160
Speaker 2: didn't have friends. I didn't have people who cared about me,

301
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:45,440
Speaker 2: didn't have OJEF, I didn't have anything. So if you

302
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 2: got a couple friends in Atlanta and you're thinking about

303
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:49,840
Speaker 2: going from DC to Atlanta, cool. If you don't know

304
00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,960
Speaker 2: about any Atlanta, just know that in most places it

305
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,000
Speaker 2: is hard as an adult to start over and meet

306
00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:00,480
Speaker 2: new people. Just really think about what you need in

307
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,200
Speaker 2: your life to feel happy and successful somewhere, and dating

308
00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,480
Speaker 2: if that's something that matters to you, and I know

309
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,760
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter to all single moms, but if it

310
00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:12,159
Speaker 2: is something that is a priority to you, take some

311
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 2: time to find out what dating looks like in the

312
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:15,560
Speaker 2: place that you're going to.

313
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 1: That's something that you've been sharing more about, like your

314
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,719
Speaker 1: dating adventures. What would you say about dating as a

315
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,639
Speaker 1: single mom and things that you might suggest us share

316
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:25,359
Speaker 1: with other people.

317
00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,199
Speaker 2: It's been an interesting journey. I will say again, I

318
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,399
Speaker 2: think it's been easier for me because I have a

319
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:35,800
Speaker 2: great co parent, But like I was a soldier of love.

320
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,359
Speaker 2: I put a lot of time and effort and energy

321
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,959
Speaker 2: into meeting somebody. And if that's something you want to do,

322
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,760
Speaker 2: I think understand how much space in your life do

323
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:47,919
Speaker 2: you have to give to it, how much does it

324
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,600
Speaker 2: matter to you. It will be more challenging than dating

325
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 2: as a person without a child, but not impossible. You

326
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,400
Speaker 2: very well may find what you want And what.

327
00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 1: Kinds of considerations have you made in terms of like

328
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 1: when people met Naima.

329
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 2: Only two people have met Naima, so they would have

330
00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,280
Speaker 2: to be my boyfriend. We would have to be in

331
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,680
Speaker 2: a committed relationship where we're talking about the future and

332
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,480
Speaker 2: the potential of expanding my family. It wouldn't just be

333
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,040
Speaker 2: somebody who's like, he's cool. Theated a guy for like

334
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 2: seven months, he never met Naima. It would have never

335
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,840
Speaker 2: been appropriate for him to me Naima the guy she

336
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,359
Speaker 2: has met. I wasn't with them for seven months when

337
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,000
Speaker 2: they met her, but I had it been that long,

338
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,119
Speaker 2: but I knew this is somebody who's going to be

339
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 2: in my life. And the first person I introduced her

340
00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,040
Speaker 2: to he was long distance, so it wasn't necessarily like, Okay,

341
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:34,960
Speaker 2: because you've met him, you're going to see him all

342
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,080
Speaker 2: the time. But he had a big role in my life.

343
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,879
Speaker 2: Man and I cultivated a relationship between them.

344
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,040
Speaker 1: So you mentioned in terms of the move, you should

345
00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,200
Speaker 1: not move anywhere where you do not have a village.

346
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 1: And I think that there are also people who are

347
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,480
Speaker 1: thinking about, like, Okay, I want to build my family,

348
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,199
Speaker 1: Like there are all kinds of technology and advances in

349
00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,040
Speaker 1: medicine that allow people to build a family even if

350
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 1: you do not have a traditional partnership. What suggestions do

351
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 1: you have for people about how to start building their

352
00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:04,800
Speaker 1: village and like cultivating a community that will help to

353
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:05,880
Speaker 1: care for you and your child.

354
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 2: You know, I'll talk to people. One of the moms

355
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 2: did I interview in the book, Ayana Bird, had a

356
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,120
Speaker 2: child on her own as a single parent from Birds

357
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 2: and moved to another country. And she's happy and they're thriving.

358
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:23,080
Speaker 2: So everyone is different. But I think, be honest about

359
00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,640
Speaker 2: what do you need? Can you do this in isolation?

360
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,960
Speaker 2: Will you be okay? Some moms. I think my mom

361
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,120
Speaker 2: is one of them. Largely it was just me and her,

362
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,359
Speaker 2: and I think that was amazing for her. But if

363
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:34,719
Speaker 2: you need something else, if you need somebody to come

364
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 2: hold that baby a few hours a week, then you

365
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,320
Speaker 2: should think about bringing a child into the world under

366
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,359
Speaker 2: the circumstances in which you can comfortably raise them.

367
00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,199
Speaker 1: And in your work, you've talked a lot about like

368
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,960
Speaker 1: shifting from a Eurocentric construction of family back to one

369
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,240
Speaker 1: that is more based in the African matriarchy. What does

370
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 1: that look like in like the practical data da Scent.

371
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 2: Remember that like matriarchy doesn't send her mother's the center

372
00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 2: of children, you know. I mean, so it's about like

373
00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 2: creating systems and communities that we need to ensure that

374
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 2: everyone has what they need right, not just children, not

375
00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 2: just women, but everyone. But like being intentional, like being

376
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 2: a girl's girl, supporting other women, showing up for mothers

377
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,720
Speaker 2: before you become one, showing up your girlfriends, not thinking

378
00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 2: that because you're in a relationship now, you don't need

379
00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:25,840
Speaker 2: to go see your girls, go pick your single girl

380
00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: up from the airport at midnight, because somebody needs to

381
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 2: do that. I think this shift toward matriarchy that we're

382
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 2: saying the very least on social media and people talking

383
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,320
Speaker 2: about like what that means is essential to the survival

384
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,520
Speaker 2: of Black people because this is where we come from.

385
00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 2: Women led doesn't mean that there's no role for men, right,

386
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,160
Speaker 2: and that men are not leaders and important and essential

387
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 2: to what we're doing. But I think we do need

388
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:59,080
Speaker 2: to return to this foundation that we have of women

389
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:04,719
Speaker 2: being loved and supported and trusted as leaders and in

390
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 2: many ways the moral compass of our people.

391
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:09,680
Speaker 1: Why do you think there has been so much hesitance

392
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: in resistance to that kind of frame.

393
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 2: It's white supremacist patriarchy. We've been indoctrinated, We've been told

394
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:17,919
Speaker 2: that the only way to be a family is with

395
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,720
Speaker 2: the man in the front, the woman in the bag.

396
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 2: We're emulating our oppressor and what we've seen him do,

397
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 2: so we're not necessarily thinking first about loving healthy relationships.

398
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,040
Speaker 2: We're thinking about a man on the top woman underneath him,

399
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 2: and that definitely just doesn't reflect who we are as

400
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 2: a people and what our experiences have been. And when

401
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 2: I think of the families that I know that have

402
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 2: been most successful, regardless of their income level, that's just

403
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,480
Speaker 2: never been what it looked like for them.

404
00:21:48,560 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, what are your

405
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 1: hopes for how people will engage with your book? What

406
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: do you hope that people will take away from it?

407
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,360
Speaker 2: I want people to reconsider their thoughts and actions as

408
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,119
Speaker 2: it relates to black single moms. Most urgently, how are

409
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 2: you showing up with the black single moms in your life?

410
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,120
Speaker 2: How are you supporting them and questioning what are those

411
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,640
Speaker 2: attitudes that you have about them and what are your

412
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 2: biases that That's what I want most. I want people

413
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,120
Speaker 2: to tip their hat. And this does happen sometimes I'm

414
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 2: not gonna say it never happens, because I think a

415
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 2: young man gets draft to the NBA or the NFL

416
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: and it's like my single mom got me here, and

417
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 2: we support that. But oftentimes, unless we're hearing one of

418
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 2: those stories or somebody succeeding fabulously, when we hear about

419
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 2: single moms, we have this distaste, we have this negative reaction.

420
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: We don't feel compelled to serve them. And I think

421
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 2: that's the problem.

422
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,320
Speaker 1: Mmmm. We talk a lot and hear a lot about

423
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:01,480
Speaker 1: like breaking generational cycles, breaking generations, curses. What do you

424
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: feel like that actually looks like day to day.

425
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: I think it's recognizing what went right and what went

426
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 2: wrong in your lineage and your own experiences and your parents' experiences,

427
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 2: and making choices to adjust according I'm a second generation

428
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 2: single mother. I don't think that's a curse, you know.

429
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 2: I don't think that me not being married to my

430
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: daughter's father has cursed my child. And I want for

431
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 2: my child to become a mother under the circumstances she

432
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: most desires. That's what I want for her. But if

433
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,679
Speaker 2: it doesn't happen a way, I want her to be

434
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 2: successful and be supported either way.

435
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: If there was something that you could go back to

436
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 1: your eighteen year old self and tell her about the

437
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 1: milfy baby mama that you would become in the future,

438
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: what would you say to her?

439
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 2: I would just say, why shouldall girl like you have

440
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 2: no idea? Eighteen year old me could not have seen

441
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 2: this version of me coming at all. I don't know

442
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 2: if there's anything I could have said to her that

443
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 2: would have prepared her, But I think I might have

444
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: said what the incredible Bebby Smith says often, which is

445
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 2: it gets greater later.

446
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:09,439
Speaker 1: When you hear the phrase black single mother, what do

447
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: you think people assume and what do they miss?

448
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: I think they are so irresponsible. I think they have

449
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: so struggle, and I think that what they miss is nuance.

450
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 2: There are so many ways in which a woman can

451
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 2: become a single mother, right. She can choose it, she

452
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 2: can break up with the partner, she can become widowed,

453
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,879
Speaker 2: her man can become incarcerated. We all got here in

454
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: so many different ways. And it's this same because there's

455
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 2: this idea that being married will protect you somehow, right,

456
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: And it's like I see how people talk about divorced

457
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 2: single moms online too. There's not much more respect for

458
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: them than there is for women who have been single

459
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,800
Speaker 2: moms since birth right or who were never married to

460
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,560
Speaker 2: the children's fathers. So I think it's important that those

461
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: of us are single moms stop looking for any sort

462
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: of external validation of our motherhood and just pay attention

463
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: to the examples around us. And if we're being honest

464
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 2: about history, single mothers have been performing, have been raising happy,

465
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,240
Speaker 2: healthy children, have achieved great things, and deserve to be

466
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 2: treated with the same amount of respect as anyone else.

467
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 1: What kinds of things and supports have really helped you

468
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 1: to get more comfortable in validating your own experience as

469
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: a mom.

470
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 2: Talking to other black women, The fact that I've had

471
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 2: a platform throughout my motherhood. I've been able to communicate

472
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: on social media. I've been able to fire off random

473
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: thoughts about single motherhood and be affirmed and know that

474
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: other people were connecting to these experiences too. I haven't

475
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 2: had to do this in isolation.

476
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 1: What part of your experience as a single mother do

477
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: you feel like people are least prepared to hear.

478
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,679
Speaker 2: People probably least prepared to hear me take accountability for

479
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: the downfall of my relationship with my daughter's father, Like

480
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,920
Speaker 2: I own the fact that I'm the woe who mester,

481
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: you know, And ultimately I think we were incompatible. I

482
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 2: think we were very young, not all about shame and

483
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,159
Speaker 2: blame for me. But if you're shame of blame, the

484
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: majority of it goes on me, and that's okay. I

485
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: don't have a problem saying that there are single mothers

486
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: who end up single mothers because they weren't great girlfriends

487
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 2: or wives, And that's okay, right, because we know of

488
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: many people who are single fathers or you know, who

489
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: have created single mothers because they were bad partners, bad boyfriend's,

490
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 2: bad husbands. But I don't think that we wone create

491
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 2: space for women to have also messed up in relationships

492
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,199
Speaker 2: and owned that. But too like even when men have

493
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: been the villains of those situations, we don't look at

494
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 2: them as if they've somehow done something wrong. But any

495
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: single law short of a widow is essentially seen as

496
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 2: somehow being the architect and being wrong and having failed

497
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: some way. So I will take responsibility for what I

498
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 2: did do wrong that relationship, but at the same time,

499
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: I am not a failure because I may have failed

500
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 2: my boyfriend.

501
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: What do you think it will take to have a

502
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: shift in the ways that people think about single moms

503
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,920
Speaker 1: and making the mom the villain as opposed to the fault.

504
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 2: I think it's going to take an increased invisibility and

505
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: popular culture of single mothers, and I think that white

506
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: women are going to be essential to this. More and

507
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 2: more of them across the world are choosing single motherhood,

508
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: They're choosing not to be married, and that is going

509
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: to lead to increased reporting, increased study, hopefully increase resources,

510
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 2: but certainly increased the tension. And I think that Black

511
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 2: women have to remind people that we've been doing this

512
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: work for a long time, where the blueprint for single motherhood.

513
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: But we're going to also have to be unashamed and

514
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: be proud. I think it's really interesting. I can name

515
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: a lot of writers who are or were black single mothers,

516
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: but none of them publish a book about black single motherhood.

517
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: And do you feel like that's connected to your own

518
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: back against writing about it?

519
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 2: And as I think plenty of them were dealing with

520
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: the same shame, the same even if they didn't feel

521
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: personally ashamed or guilty that they didn't want to be

522
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 2: associated with the stereotypes. They didn't want to deal with

523
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: the backlash you didn't want to hear from the podcast bros.

524
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 1: Oh goodsh Do you feel like there is a difference

525
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,320
Speaker 1: in the ways that we talk about in like the

526
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: perceptions of moms who are single moms because of like

527
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: a relationship not working, versus people who become single moms

528
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: because of something like IVA.

529
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I rarely. I'm not a woman who's done IVA

530
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: for IBI, so I can't speak for their experiences, but

531
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 2: I don't hear them being criticized in the same way

532
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: that women who were in a relationship they failed are

533
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: being criticized, Which is interesting because if single mother is

534
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,719
Speaker 2: inherently wrong, win't choosing it without a father being present

535
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: at all be just as bad? And like, yes, there've

536
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: been people on the religious right who've criticized it, and

537
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 2: maybe that's the level of intention that goes into in

538
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: vitual fertilization or IVI that like people respect that differently

539
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: than they do somebody who ends up a single mother unintentionally.

540
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: But I do think that as more women choose IVF,

541
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: I'm curious to see will there be more scrutiny on

542
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: with this whole male loneliness epidemic and men are not

543
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 2: getting partnered. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the

544
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: backlash that we've experienced does get translated or get a

545
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: sign to women who chosen single motherhood from birth.

546
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: Mm hm. You mentioned the podcast brows and we both

547
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: smirked because it feels like they're just freaking havoc in

548
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: so many different ways. Why do you feel like black

549
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 1: single mothers have become such a topic and a target

550
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 1: for a lot of them and a lot of the

551
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 1: conversations they.

552
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: Have, we're easy to punch down on. There's already this

553
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: distaste for us, and I praise the rooms for that.

554
00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: Back to the moyang Am report in the book and

555
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: talk about like this history of blaming black single mothers

556
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: for the state of the community. But when I think

557
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: of not just the black podcast bros, but the white ones,

558
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: single mothers are often a punching bag because it's a

559
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 2: group of people that folks, no matter what their politics,

560
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: oftentimes feel comfortable attacking. It's a woman who is defined

561
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: by her relationship to a man, who's existing in the

562
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 2: absence presumably of a man. Right she's unclaimed, she's unchosen,

563
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: so whether she's divorced, whether hear her boyfriend broke up somehow,

564
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 2: she's doing something that you're supposed to do in the

565
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: context of a marriage, and she doesn't belong to anyone

566
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 2: allegedly right, So we're just easy to target, and for

567
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 2: so long, so few people have been willing to defend us.

568
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: How are you feeling as it gets closer to the

569
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: book's release. I mean, you're somebody who's written so much,

570
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: but I think that there's something that's very special about

571
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: like having your first book be out in the world.

572
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: How are you feeling leading up to the room.

573
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 2: I'm excited, nervous. I'm scared about my parents reading it.

574
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: I'm going through all the emotions.

575
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: What are you worried about in terms of your parents

576
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: reading it?

577
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: I tell the story of their relationship, and I think

578
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: that I was very generous and I don't print all

579
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: the sort of details, but I am honest about the

580
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: things that happen in our family that are uncomfortable.

581
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: And so what are you expecting in terms of their.

582
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: Reaction, either embrace or estrangement.

583
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: We'll see. We'll see, oh not oh not a strangent.

584
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: So let us know where we can stay connected with you, Jamila.

585
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 1: What is your website? Where can we grab our coffee

586
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: of the book and how do we stay connection?

587
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 2: So my website is Jamila Lamut dot com. There are

588
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: more updates to come, but the basic stuff is there now.

589
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 2: I am active on Instagram and threads at jamil Lamute,

590
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 2: and my book Black Single Mother is available where books

591
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: are sold. You can get it from all the major retailers.

592
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 2: You can also get it from a number of any booksellers,

593
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: including the Reparations Club in La Cafe con Lei Roads

594
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: in Brooklyn, Colin Response in Chicago, and Kinder Spirits in Houston.

595
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: And many of these places also have it available for

596
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 2: sale online so you can order it. I can order

597
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: it from Reparations Club. They will ship you a signed copy.

598
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: And you will also be on tour, so if people

599
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: want to come and see you talk about the book,

600
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: they can also look up on your website to find tickets.

601
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right now. The tour information is on my

602
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: Instagram and Thrance pages. I will eventually update my website,

603
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: but I've got a number of dates. I'm doing Ladilli,

604
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: New York, Miami, Atlanta, Houston, and we're working on DC

605
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: and Chicago perfect well.

606
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: We will be sure to include all of that in

607
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: the show notes for your episode. Thank you so much

608
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: for sending some time with us today.

609
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: Thank you.

610
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Jamila was able to join me for

611
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: today's conversation. To learn more about her and her work,

612
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: or to grab a copy of her book, be sure

613
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: to visit the show notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot

614
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: com slash Session four fifty four, and don't forget to

615
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: text this episode to two of your girls right now

616
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: and tell them to check it out. Did you know

617
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: that you could leave us a voicemail with your questions

618
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: or suggestions for the podcast. If there's a movie or

619
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 1: book you'd like us to review, or have thoughts about

620
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 1: topics you like to hear discussed, drop us a message

621
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: at Memo dot fm slash Therapy for Black Girls and

622
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: let us know what's on your mind. We just might

623
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: feature it on the podcast. If you're looking for a

624
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: therapists in your area, visit our therapist directory at Therapy

625
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: for Blackgirls dot com slash directory. Don't forget to follow

626
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Therapy for Black Girls and come

627
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: on over and join us in our Patreon for exclusive updates,

628
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: behind the scenes content and much more. You can't wait

629
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: to see you inside. You can join us at community

630
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: dot Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. This episode was produced

631
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: by Elise Ellis, Indiechubo and Tyree Rush. Editing was done

632
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me

633
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation

634
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take good care,