WEBVTT - COPPA, YouTube and a Creepy Cartoon 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.800 Welcome to Tech Stuff, a production from I Heart Radio. 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.400 Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:18.079 Jonathan Strickland, Diamond Executive producer with I Heart Radio and 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.760 how the tech are yet So recently, the YouTube content 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:29.280 moderation AI made a notable mistake. Artist and writer Chris Straub, 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.680 whom I once interviewed many years ago for an article 0:00:33.720 --> 0:00:37.520 about how web comics work, has made a lot of 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:41.240 different stuff over the years, and one of his creations 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.960 is a video series called Local five eight TV, which 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:50.280 is described on the YouTube channel as quote an analog 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.680 horror at four seventies six mega hurts end quote. The 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.160 series relies on a low fi VHS aesthetic which has, 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.880 you know, in a popular style in the horror realm 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:05.080 for the better part of a decade now, and I'm 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.400 sure you've seen plenty of examples, such as the game 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:13.759 series Five Nights at Freddie's or the VHS anthology Horror Stories. 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.720 There are tons of these of this kind of throwback 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:24.080 to like nineteen eighties era looks and aesthetic for horror. Anyway, 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:28.520 one of the episodes Stroub created back in has the 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:32.600 title show for Children and the description on the video 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:37.319 reads not for children, and the whole stick here is 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.520 that Stroub has gone for a beyond generic title for 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:46.240 this short. In fact, in the context of the Local 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:51.760 five eight t V universe, it's the television station the 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:57.280 Local five eight has show for children listed on its 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:01.000 on its lineup, and that's just the title, like, it's 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.480 kind of a commentary on this sort of very generic, 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:08.120 low budget children's program um And the short itself follows 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:11.760 a cute little cartoon skeleton walking through a cemetery at 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:16.520 night with the moon overhead as a warbly soundtrack plays 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.720 in the background. The skeleton comes upon an open grave 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:23.639 and looks into it and sees a less cartoonish skeleton 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:29.080 inside it, and then continues on its way, and gradually 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.200 the music fades out. We get the sound of wind 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:35.000 as this cartoon skeleton looks into other open graves. It 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.040 sees a little weird skeletal creature in one that kind 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.959 of mules like a cat, and sees a bottomless hole 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.120 in another, and apparently goes inside it and is walking 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.640 in like a cave with its arms folded as if 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.560 the skeleton is freezing, and it comes upon another open 0:02:51.560 --> 0:02:55.000 grave within this cave and lies down inside of it, 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.320 looking up through the grave to the moon, and then 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:02.799 transforms into a more realistic skeleton. And that's the end. Now, 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:08.320 on the whole, it's a pretty tame but creepy short video. 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:11.760 But Straub knew what audience he was aiming for and 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.040 it wasn't kids. And so even though the title read 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:19.480 show for children, the description said otherwise. And moreover, Straub 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.960 went a bit further. He used the content settings in 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.800 YouTube to tag the cartoon as an eighteen and up 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:32.000 video and that was that for a while. Anyway, flash 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:36.760 forward to this week in twenty two, when Straube discovered 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.960 that YouTube's content moderation AI had mysteriously changed this video's 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.160 setting from eighteen and up to being suitable for children. Now, 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.640 that also means that his short could potentially appear in 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.760 the YouTube Kids app More on that later. Now, clearly 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.440 that's not what Chris Strab wanted. He went on to 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.760 Twitter to reveal this problem, including screen shots of some 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.440 of the issues. He had intentionally flagged his video as 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.120 being for mature audiences. The YouTube moderation AI reverse that 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:11.600 setting without Straub's input or consent. Moreover, Strab found that 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.760 he couldn't change it back. His ability to switch the 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:17.719 video away from being flagged as suitable for all kids 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.159 had been grayed out. He could not switch it to 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.839 eighteen and up again, so his only option was to 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.320 file and appeal with YouTube, which he did. Now, obviously 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:29.880 there are a lot of questions that pop up because 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.279 of this incident. So why would an automated content moderation 0:04:33.360 --> 0:04:37.720 tool be able to reverse an age gated restriction on 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:40.760 a YouTube video? You know, it makes sense if the 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:45.280 moderation algorithm detected a video that had no age restriction 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.640 should have age restriction, right like, if a video detection 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.680 system determines this video has got some objectionable material in it, 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.560 it makes sense that it could flag that video and 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.200 change the setting so it's not listed as appropriate for 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:02.560 all ages. You could understand that maybe the content creator 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:05.640 could say, oh, no, this is a mistake. Review it. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.239 You'll see that this content is in fact appropriate for everyone, 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.720 and maybe get that decision reversed. You would think that 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.080 that would be the only way this kind of AI 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.880 would make an error, right like, it would be overprotective, 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.320 rather than potentially reversing a video that had been flagged 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:27.760 as being eighteen and up as being suitable for all ages. 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.200 So what is going on here? Well, to get to 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:32.640 the bottom of all that, we're gonna have to talk 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.159 about YouTube's shoddy history with content for kids, which goes 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:38.760 back pretty much to the founding of YouTube. We're also 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:41.680 gonna have to talk about the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act. 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:43.760 In fact, that's going to be the meat of most 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:47.800 of this episode. That's also known as Kappa CEO p 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.720 p A and the ridiculous tendency for lawmakers to deem 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:56.200 anything that animated is intended for kids. That seems to 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.680 be kind of a go to, which you would think 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.160 by now people would realize that's just not the case. 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:03.800 In fact, I mean, I'm going to talk about this 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:07.800 again later, but animation has a very long history of 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:11.400 being a medium for different age groups. I mean, there 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:15.000 are old cartoons that were never meant to be shown 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:17.680 to kids. And we're also going to talk about the 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.200 business of online video because that plays a big part 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:23.640 in it too. So let's start with Kappa because that 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.920 actually predates the launch of YouTube. You know, I'm sure 0:06:26.920 --> 0:06:31.400 a lot of people heard about Kappa, maybe around definitely 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:36.360 more around twenty because that's when it was really having 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.240 a huge impact on YouTube. But in fact, KAPPA was 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:45.080 initially passed in and was enacted on April twenty one, 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:48.440 two thousand, so that's five years before YouTube came out, 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:53.640 and KAPPA was intended to protect children online using various measures, 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:57.839 including restrictions on how sites could harvest and use personal data, 0:06:58.040 --> 0:07:01.160 as well as requiring sites to seek very aifiable consent 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:04.240 from a parent or a guardian before a child was 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.760 allowed to use it. The law specifically protects kids under 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.840 the age of thirteen. So if you've ever wondered why 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:13.960 so many social network sites require users to be thirteen 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:18.120 or older, this is why. It's because creating a service 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:22.640 that complies with Kappa is really darn hard to do. 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:26.000 It requires a lot of oversight. I mean, just having 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.920 a verifiable way for parents to consent is tough on 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.440 its own, right, Like, how can you verify that it 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.640 was in fact a guardian or parent who gave consent 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.280 for a child to access that material. If you've ever 0:07:40.400 --> 0:07:43.560 encountered any site that asked you if you were of 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.680 the appropriate age, you've probably noticed that all it takes 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:49.680 is clicking the yes button or the I'm over eighteen 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:54.040 button or whatever it might be. That's not verifiable, right, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.760 that's just taking your word for that. Anyone could click 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.480 an affirmative answer even if they didn't meet the criteria. 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.960 There's nothing stopping them. So building an age gate that 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:07.280 verifies answers, or at least as capable of verifying answers 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.480 is way more difficult. And it also means that you 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:13.480 potentially are reducing the amount of traffic to that site 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.200 or service. So a lot of companies just opt out 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.160 of doing it entirely and say, hey, our stuff is 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:20.760 not meant for kids under thirteen, so don't even try. 0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:23.960 Doesn't mean that kids can't try, and it doesn't mean 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.400 that those sites prevent kids from trying, but you know, 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:30.480 they're at least trying to take the appearance of not 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.160 being intended for younger children in an effort to not 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:37.600 be lumped in as something that would be covered under 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:42.640 Kappa um. There. You could have a very long discussion. 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.679 It's almost like theater, right, Like it's like security theater 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.840 giving the appearance of propriety in this case but not 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.400 actually being proper. Uh, we could have a week long 0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:56.960 discussion about that. But you know, just keep it in 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.960 the back of your mind. So KAPPA also specifically focus 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.959 is on sites and services that are specifically directed to children. Moreover, 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.959 the courts of interpreted Kappa to treat user generated channels 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:13.640 like user generated content, as if they the person who 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:17.960 created the content owned and operated the site it was on. So, 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.679 in other words, if you made a channel that a 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.640 reasonable person would interpret as having content directed to children, 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:29.160 well then your channel would be subject to KAPPA and 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.320 you could be treated as if you owned and operated 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:34.880 the site, though the site itself could also be facing 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.760 its own issues, which YouTube has faced numerous times in 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.800 the past. Now let's talk about YouTube in particular now, 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.520 as I'm sure we all know, YouTube and Google in 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:49.600 general makes most of its revenue through selling ads against content, 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:53.480 and we probably all know that the most valuable advertisements 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:58.120 online are targeted advertisements. Those just have a higher chance 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:00.600 of making an impact on a consumer. Here's a very 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.000 simple example. If you happen to know that the person 0:10:04.040 --> 0:10:08.040 who's visiting your channel and watching a particular video has 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.120 been shopping for shoes recently, serving up an ad about 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:16.120 shoes could be a huge payoff. The person might respond 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.800 to that ad, and that ad becomes more valuable. But 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:24.120 to target ads, you have to learn about the audience first. 0:10:24.400 --> 0:10:28.880 You can't target an audience with advertising unless you know 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:31.760 more about them. You need to know stuff like where 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.360 they're living, because you don't want to serve them ads 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.240 for things that aren't available in their area. You need 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.920 to know what they like and what their habits indicate 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.240 about those people. You might also want to know stuff 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:46.840 like how old they are, what gender do they identify with, 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.160 that kind of thing. Now, it's one thing to track 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:54.080 personal data that belongs to adults, it's an entirely different 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:57.480 matter when we're talking about children. That's when Kappa comes 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:59.959 into play, and that's when you really need that very 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.840 viable adult consent. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break. 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.040 When we come back, we're gonna talk more about Kappa 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:17.960 and YouTube. Okay, so let's talk about Kappa and YouTube. 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:21.680 While a channel creator might make stuff directed to children, 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.880 that channel creator isn't fully responsible for tracking the data 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.240 of that person necessarily, right, Like, you can get some 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:37.160 insights on your audience through the creator part of YouTube. 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.560 Like when you're actually owning a channel on your uploading videos, 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:45.680 you get insights into your audience to some degree, but 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.800 it's not like you have all the tools available to 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.680 you to make use of that information the way YouTube does. 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:54.959 Like YouTube really takes the reins on that, right, It's 0:11:55.400 --> 0:12:01.640 it's the platform's responsibility to secure advertising against the content. 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:04.320 They're better qualified to do it and able to do 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:08.439 it on a much larger scale, so you aren't fully 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.319 responsible for that. However, you know, if you have comments 0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.719 or whatever enabled on your on your video, people might 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:18.920 be leaving information that reveals personal data about themselves, like 0:12:19.280 --> 0:12:22.559 their name or where they're from, or any sort of 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.679 of of information about themselves, and you could be keeping 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:29.040 track of that, right So it wouldn't necessarily just be YouTube. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.760 You could be tracking that too. So if a content 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.560 creator has enabled ads against their content, if they're trying 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:41.160 to monetize their their videos, that brings up a ton 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:45.439 of red flags when you know, view it in line 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.600 with Kappa. But hey, what determines if a site or 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:54.360 service or channel is directed to children in the first place, Like, 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.440 what is it that makes us say, yes, this channel 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:02.760 is meant to be shown to children. Well, there's no 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.920 cookie cutter answer for that. Ultimately, if it came down 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:10.760 to it. The FTC or Federal Trade Commission would have 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.640 to rule if something is actually directed to children, using 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:18.200 various criteria, and that criteria can include things like the 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:22.520 subject matter involved. Right Like, if the video channel is 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:27.600 all about home appraisals, chances are the FTC is gonna say, well, clearly, 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:30.640 this isn't directed to children. Even if you're using cartoons 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:35.520 to illustrate how home appraisals work. The subject matter alone 0:13:35.679 --> 0:13:38.360 is not going to appeal to children. It's not directed 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.600 to them. It's not really a question. But the visual 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:45.080 style of the content does matter, and that includes whether 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:48.800 or not there's any use of animation. Animation is one 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:53.400 of the criteria. So again, I know that my my 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:58.120 animation fans out there all feel this way. There's tons 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:02.840 of animation that's not meant for children. It's not necessarily 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:08.240 incredibly offensive or whatever, but there's tons of animation animations 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:11.800 like any other medium, right, There's there's animation out there 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:16.160 that's for different audiences, including audiences that don't include children. However, 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.840 animation is one of the criteria that the FTC might 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.480 look at if determining a channel is directed to children 0:14:23.600 --> 0:14:26.560 or not. The type of music being used in a 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.960 video can also be a factor, right, So if the 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:35.080 music is very jaunty and fun and there's animated characters, 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.800 those things could be elements that the FTC takes into 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.200 consideration to say, like, well, you know, even if you 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.320 don't intend for this to be seen for children, it's 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.560 designed in such a way as to appeal to children, 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:54.200 So it gets kind of gray and vague. If your 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:57.160 videos have the presence of children in them, or people 0:14:57.240 --> 0:15:00.680 posing as children and them, that can also be a factor. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.440 There are a lot of different elements at play here. 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.240 But hang on a minute. I hear you say, isn't 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:09.840 this too broad of a brush? And yeah, each of 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:13.520 these taken by themselves, definitely would be too broad a brush. If, 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:16.280 if it only, if only one of these check boxes 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:18.080 had to be checked for the FTC to say, well, 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:20.720 clearly this this channel is directed to children, or this 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:26.280 website or this service or whatever, then that would be ludicrous. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:30.160 It would be way too much over each right, and 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:35.040 so you would have to definitely dig further down. There 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.400 has to be multiple factors here, and it has to 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:43.280 be reasonable to assume that the material itself was specifically 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:47.160 created in order to appeal to children and attract children 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:51.080 to it. So this is not a new thing. This 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.520 is something that you know has been an issue for ages, 0:15:54.960 --> 0:16:00.160 and for some cycles of content, it's more prevalent than others. Right, Like, 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.560 you can look at stuff that has been created over 0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:08.440 time that uh, you know has like a retro appeal 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:12.160 or a nostalgia of heel to it that you could, 0:16:12.400 --> 0:16:14.400 on one hand say, oh, I can see how this 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.440 could be considered directed to children. I'm thinking of things 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:23.200 like Robot Chicken, a series where toys and and animated 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.320 figures are used to tell jokes that are not meant 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:30.560 for kids. Like the material in those shows are not 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.760 meant for for kids, uh, And it's meant to appeal 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.160 to an age group of people who grew up playing 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.320 with like action figures and stuff. But the fact that 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.360 it is animated and that's using toys, those are things 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.720 that the FTC might look at and say, you know, 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:50.160 it's hitting some of the criteria we consider for material 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.520 that was meant to be directed to children. So yeah, 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:58.080 there's a real um sticky situation there. And you can 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:00.360 see how by using some of the criteria that the 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.240 FTC uses to determine if something is in fact directed 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:07.200 to children. Such a short as Chris Stroubs might get 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:10.160 lumped in there, right, had a cartoon skeleton and had 0:17:10.200 --> 0:17:12.919 some fun music in the beginning. Never mind that the 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.840 short is sort of a dark parody of those kinds 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:19.359 of cartoons, and it is in fact leveraging that retro 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.600 aesthetic to convey an unsettling and creepy story. You could 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:26.960 argue that just because something looks similar to material produced 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:32.280 for children, that it should qualify as intended for children. 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:34.600 I don't think that's a good argument. I don't think 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:38.680 you can argue that just because something resembles something else 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.640 that it makes it the same thing. I think that's 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.399 a dangerous argument to make. But you can start to 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:47.439 see where YouTube's AI started to make mistakes. Now, if 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:49.879 you're someone like Stroube, there's a very good reason you 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.400 would want your video to not be flagged as appropriate 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:57.760 for all ages if in fact the video isn't. See 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.479 if the FTC determines that your service or site or 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:07.200 whatever is directed to children but is violating Kappa on 0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:10.440 some level, then you could face a maximum fine of 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:17.159 forty thousand, five dollars per violation. That's a heck of 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:21.679 a fine if you're a content creator, right like, you 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.960 get hit for that because your video was deemed to 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:29.720 be inappropriate for children and yet designated as appropriate for children. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.720 Explains why Straube is so frustrated that YouTube has overruled 0:18:33.800 --> 0:18:37.040 his own designation that the video is meant for older audiences. 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:39.400 Strab could be on the hook for a large fine 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:42.639 if a complaint were brought against his channel. And now 0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:47.440 let's talk about YouTube's own lousy history of curating content 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.919 for children. It is no surprise that there is a 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.280 lot of content on YouTube that's unsuitable for kids. I 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:57.440 would argue there's a lot of content on YouTube that's 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:01.280 unsuitable for anyone. I see examples of it all the time. 0:19:01.320 --> 0:19:03.200 But we're gonna put that aside for now, because that's 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:07.680 just grumpy old man yells at cloud material. So YouTube 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.320 launched back in two thousand five, and it did not 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:12.760 take very long for folks to find stuff that was 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:16.880 not appropriate for kids and yet appeared to be aimed 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:21.680 at kids. Now, that pretty much has been part of 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:25.080 YouTube's landscape throughout its entire history, but for a very 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.800 long time that issue was largely ignored or at least 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:32.640 not talked about very much. In two thousand fifteen, Google 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.200 released an app for Android and iOS called YouTube Kids. 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.320 The app was meant to give parents more control over 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:42.240 what their kids could watch on various devices like tablets 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:46.600 or smartphones or smart TVs, and the content was curated. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.000 The idea was that the only content suitable for children 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.080 under the age of thirteen would make it through a 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:57.880 first past filter into YouTube Kids, so that parents could 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.920 be sure that whatever their kids were watching on this 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:05.439 particular version of YouTube would not be inappropriate. But on 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.440 top of that, parents would actually have additional parental controls 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:10.719 so that they could restrict it further if they wanted to. 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.280 The curated content issue really came under the spotlight in 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.080 two thousand seventeen with the onset of what was later 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:21.679 called Elsa Gate. That name references the character Elsa in 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:27.280 Disney's Frozen series, and gate is a shorthand for saying scandal, 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:31.000 and they used Elsa because the character of Elsa would 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:35.600 figure prominently in tons of videos that were being created 0:20:35.720 --> 0:20:39.560 for YouTube and YouTube Kids. Some of those videos were 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:41.600 live action. In fact, a lot of them were as 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.439 just someone in an Elsa costume and wig, some of 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.959 the shorts were animated. Sometimes the animation was actually not terrible, 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:53.640 most of it was super cheap and limited and shoddy, 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:57.160 and it was like a fire hose of content had 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:02.000 just been dumped on YouTube all at monts. The consequences 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:06.359 of that would end up being pretty serious, both for 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:10.960 YouTube and for content creators. I'll explain more after we 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:21.840 come back from this quick break. So some of the 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:25.280 videos that were uploaded during Elsa Gate were just weird 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:30.959 but otherwise mostly innocent. Other you know, they're just had 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.600 a bunch of people in cheap costumes running around doing 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:38.000 weird sketches, often without any dialogue at all. But other 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:41.359 videos included material that was really unsuitable for kids, including 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:47.320 sexually suggestive content, violence, other disturbing content, you know, cruelty, 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.760 that kind of thing. And the videos would smash together 0:21:50.960 --> 0:21:55.800 tons of popular characters, and there was no question whatsoever 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.199 that the people who were making these videos weren't you know, 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.520 bother ring to actually license those characters. So this was 0:22:03.560 --> 0:22:08.200 all a lot of folks infringing upon intellectual property going 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:12.600 on here, like at a truly absurd level. And you 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.439 would have videos with you know, characters like Spider man 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:19.040 talking to a pregnant Elsa while you see the joker 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:21.800 running around in the background. It was just like a 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:27.640 smorgas board of you know, popular characters that kids would recognize. 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:30.199 And like I said, some of these videos were just 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:33.119 bizarre with no real rhyme or reason to them, and 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.399 they had like, you know, background music, but they wouldn't 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:39.359 have dialogue. And obviously leaning on popular children's characters while 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.280 not using words meant that those videos could become popular 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.560 all around the world. There was no language barrier to overcome, 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.879 so you didn't have to worry if the kids in 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.760 you know, whatever region couldn't understand say English or French 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:55.280 or whatever, because there was no no speaking or or 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:58.880 language at all. And many of the videos became more bizarre, 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:02.560 not necessarily out of a desire to warp kids minds, 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:06.720 but rather driven by data. See. Content creators were paying 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.879 attention to topics that were popping up in search terms 0:23:10.320 --> 0:23:13.879 and videos that were getting popular. So if topics were 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:18.360 starting to gain in popularity, you would start seeing videos 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:22.480 that somehow tie into those search terms. It was kind 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:24.359 of like the old days of the web where people 0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:27.800 would just hide a massive text dump on a web page, 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:30.600 so that search engines would pick up on that page 0:23:30.600 --> 0:23:33.600 and index them, even if the page itself had nothing 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:35.520 to do with the search term. It was just that, 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:39.080 you know, buried somewhere on the page was that term, 0:23:39.560 --> 0:23:41.159 but the page itself had nothing to do with that. 0:23:41.760 --> 0:23:43.840 Like I said, there have been some channels on YouTube 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:46.800 that created this kind of weird content directed at kids 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:50.440 for years, and you might wonder why. And again, if 0:23:50.480 --> 0:23:53.200 you can monetize your content, your goal is to get 0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:57.280 as many views on as many videos as possible. You 0:23:57.320 --> 0:24:01.919 want to get that that view count sky rocketing. Kids 0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.560 are a great audience to have that happened because kids 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:08.639 tend to fixate on content. They like to experience the 0:24:08.720 --> 0:24:12.200 same thing over and over. It becomes kind of like 0:24:12.240 --> 0:24:15.320 a ritual. I'm pretty sure every parent out there is 0:24:15.400 --> 0:24:17.840 familiar with the experience of having to read the same 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:22.440 bedtime story for the hundredth time to their kids, including 0:24:22.480 --> 0:24:25.320 doing all the voices. So for me, when I was 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:27.560 a kid, it was There's a monster at the end 0:24:27.560 --> 0:24:30.960 of this book, and then it was Hamlet. I progressed 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:33.399 pretty quickly, and you might think I'm joking, but I 0:24:33.440 --> 0:24:37.720 actually once found a cassette tape labeled for Jonathan that 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:40.280 my dad made for me that included him reading Hamlet 0:24:40.320 --> 0:24:44.240 and doing different voices for the characters. Anyway, kids would 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:47.560 rewatch videos and that would drive up the watch count, 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:52.080 that in turn would prompt YouTube's recommendation algorithm to promote 0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:55.119 that video to other people. The idea being that if 0:24:55.160 --> 0:24:58.480 something is gaining popularity, then with a little help, it 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:01.919