1 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly 2 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small 3 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford, 5 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or 6 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website 7 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you 8 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is 9 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with 10 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much 11 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: for joining me for session four one five of the 12 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. We'll get right into our 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: conversation after worrdy from our sponsors. Today is a very 14 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: special episode in honor of pride Mouth. We're joined by 15 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: Mary Francis Phillips, a scholar, activist, public intellectual, and Associate 16 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: Professor of African American Studies at the University of Illinois 17 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: Urbana Champaign. Her interdisciplinary research agenda focuses on race and 18 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: gender in post nineteen forty five social movements and the 19 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: carceral state. Her scholarly interests include the modern Black freedom struggle, 20 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: black feminism, and black power studies. Her first book, Black 21 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: Panther Woman, chronicles the life and spiritual practices of Erica Huggins, 22 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: a founding member of the Black Panther Party and the 23 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 1: first woman to hold a leadership role within the movement. 24 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: Unpacking her unlawful arrest, latent queerness, and journey from Razil 25 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: distance warriors to revolutionary Doctor Phillips helps close the gap 26 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: on how some of the movement philosophy of the past 27 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: has made its way into the current day. If something 28 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please share it 29 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: with us on social media using the hashtag TVG in session, 30 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: or join us over in our Patreon channel for more 31 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 1: conversation and an ad free version of the podcast. Here's 32 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: our conversation, Doctor Phillips. Thank you so much for joining 33 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: us today. 34 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. 35 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 3: Excited is to chat with you. 36 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: So can you get us started by telling us a 37 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: little bit about your background as a researcher and a historian. 38 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: Yes, so, I got my PhD in African American Studies 39 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: at Michigan State University. That origin in that program actually 40 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: goes back to my undergraduate of days at Michigan State University. 41 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 2: I started in a major in health study and was 42 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 2: taken what was considered a minor, They didn't have majors 43 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:09,360 Speaker 2: and minors, but it was called Black American and Diasporic studying. 44 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: It was a specialization, and it allowed me to take 45 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: a whole host of courses into disciplinear and courses related 46 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 2: to the African American experience. And I got so passionate 47 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 2: about the African American experience, particularly African American history, that 48 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: I had decided to pursue a master's in African American 49 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: Studies at Ohio State University and then get my PhD 50 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: in African American Studies at Michigan State University. So I 51 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: am firmly trained and rooted in African American studies. So 52 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: I bring that lens to all of my research work 53 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: and you see that all over my new book Black 54 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: Panther Women, which is. 55 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: A Black studies project. 56 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: Beautiful. So what drew you to studying the women of 57 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 1: the Black Panther and specifically Erica Huggins. 58 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the origin story is actually dates back to 59 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: those undergraduate years taken African American history courses, and we 60 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: would get to the topic of the Black Panther Party 61 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: and I would just get so curious. I was just 62 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 2: blown away at the community programs of the Panthers, at 63 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 2: the power of the Panthers, at the work that it 64 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 2: was doing in the communities that I was varted from 65 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: my courses that I got really curious about the women. 66 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: What were their experiences, what did their everyday lives look like? 67 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: And I put that away and I came back to 68 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: that when I was doing my PhD. And initially my 69 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: dissertation was a dual biography on two women in a 70 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: Black Panther Party, and that was Erica Huggins. But then 71 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: when I decided to go ahead and do the book, 72 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: I just focused on Erica Huggins. Now. I came to 73 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 2: Erica Huggins as a PhD student. When I first started 74 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,400 Speaker 2: presenting at conferences National Council for Black Studies, I was 75 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 2: on a panel with all the people that I cited 76 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: in my paper, and someone who became my mentor at 77 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: the time, lad La blank Ernest, connected. 78 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 3: Me with Ericas. 79 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: She said, you should talk to Erica, you should meet Erica. 80 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: I hadn't heard of her and we had that initial conversation, 81 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 2: and I was blown away by her story, by her resilience. 82 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,799 Speaker 2: At the time, we didn't talk in that initial conversation 83 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: a lot about her her prison resistance. Right, in that 84 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 2: early conversation, I was focused on a different area on 85 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 2: the Panthers. But once I decided to go ahead and 86 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 2: pick up the book, I had since then learned so 87 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 2: much about her prison resistance, so much of how spirituality 88 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: became a core a core component of her survival. So 89 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: the book is very different than where the dissertation was 90 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 2: and was going. It's on new research on We'll focus 91 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 2: on your methodologies. 92 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 3: Got it. 93 00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: And I'm curious, was there any trepidation for you writing 94 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: about a still living person? And was there any pushback 95 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: from Erica about having a book written about her? 96 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: So she welcomed the idea when I think about so, 97 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 2: let me think a couple of things about in reference 98 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: to that question, Erica welcomed the idea. There are some 99 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 2: archival places at universities that have her documents, to have 100 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: some of her archives, and that is Yale University. Right. 101 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 2: She's well documented in a Black Panther Party newspaper. However, 102 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 2: there is not one University, a one archive collection that 103 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 2: has all her papers, and so given those archival gaps, 104 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 2: there were times that I had to turn to my 105 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: living source for information about her life that only she 106 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 2: would know. And so the book blends my oral history 107 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,679 Speaker 2: with her, other people that I've talked to that knew 108 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 2: her lawyers that was critical during her trial, as well 109 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: as her prison records, co intelpro papers, photographs, is a 110 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: whole host of material that I look at to really 111 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 2: give a critical readering of her life. She welcomed the 112 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 2: idea of me doing biography on her life, as those 113 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: interviews in the book is well over a decade of 114 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: interviews that I had done with Erica. However, as we 115 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 2: continued with the project, we certainly did have some slight conflict, 116 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: and a lot of that resolved around my training as 117 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: a professional historian and my interpretation of her life, given 118 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: my training, place in her life in a proper historical context, 119 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: and at times that began in conflict with how she 120 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 2: saw her life. And so there are moments that we 121 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: had to talk through uncomfortable conversations that we had to have. 122 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: At times she wanted me to cut certain stories out 123 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: of her life. 124 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 3: Some of those stories have been cut. 125 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: Some stories haven't been cut, but we've had to have 126 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: a lot of conversation and there has been a delicate 127 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 2: balance to really bring her story to life. 128 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: M H. Yeah, So it doesn't sound like it was 129 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: any intrepidation really on your part. It was more like, 130 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 1: I want to honor her in this way, right, Like 131 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: there is not one place where her story kind of exists, 132 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: and so I really wanted this book to be that. 133 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely. There are no biographies on academic, scholarly biographies on 134 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 2: Black Panther women, and so this is the first scholarly biography. 135 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 2: And Erica started at the rank and found level as 136 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: MANI members in a Black Panther Party. She ascended to 137 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 2: the Central Committee, one of the top positions that you 138 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: could hold in a Black Panther part, already ultimately running 139 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 2: the Black Panther Party's local community school as director. And 140 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: her story is important and the spiritual practices that she 141 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: put into place, those healing practices to work through the 142 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 2: trauma and the assaults that she was experienced and in 143 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: prison is a story orth telling. It's a powerful story 144 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 2: and it gives us a lot of tools that could 145 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 2: help black and brown women as we are navigating the 146 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: world that we am today. 147 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: I definitely want to hear more about those practices, but 148 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: first I want to hear more just about like the 149 00:09:36,120 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: role that women had in the Black Panther Party, because 150 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: I feel like for a very long time, like you 151 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: only saw the men in the Black Panther Party, as 152 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: with a lot in history, right, and so I'm very 153 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: excited that we are seeing more and more and getting 154 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: more stories about the incredible role and the pivotal role 155 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: that women had in the party. Can you say more 156 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: about the roles that women tended to have in the 157 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: Black Panther Party. 158 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the women in the Black Panther Party were 159 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 2: involved in every aspect before we think about the Black 160 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: Panther Party. When we think about the community programs of 161 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 2: the Black Panther Party, it was women that were ultimately 162 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: running those programs. Women made up very early in the 163 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 2: history of the Black Panther Party. Women made up the 164 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 2: majority of the organization, and that's oftentimes left out of 165 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: the public telling of the Black Panther Party. Women were 166 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: keeping the organization alive and keeping it thriving, if you will, 167 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: when you had the police and the state attack many 168 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: members in the Black Panther Party, while women also endured 169 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: much of those attacks. Oftentimes they will attack the public 170 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 2: mail faces of the organization. It was women who was 171 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: keeping that organization alive and functioning into the closing of 172 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: the last community survival program, that is the Black Panther 173 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 2: Party's elementary level institution, the Oakland Community School, And so 174 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 2: women were critical to the everyday operation of the organization, 175 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: as many other Black Panther scholars have. 176 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 3: Noted, and that de Villa's what would you say? 177 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:18,959 Speaker 1: Your research has shown you are illuminated about the gender 178 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: dynamics of men and women in the party and how 179 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: that may be present in some challenges to the work. 180 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: When we think about the gender dynamics of the Black 181 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: Panther Party, that varies depending on what period we're talking about, 182 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: what year we're talking about, what branch we're talking about, 183 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,680 Speaker 2: when we think about what time period we're talking about, 184 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: that's a complex question, and oftentimes I hear when the 185 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 2: Panthers are talked about in the public responses is very. 186 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 3: Black and white. 187 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 2: But it was very complicated, right, and so a lot 188 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: of members and the Black Panther Party lived together and 189 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 2: they brought all of that right that you bring living 190 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:14,479 Speaker 2: together as they coexisted, and they work through their conflicts 191 00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: as anyone else would do. You had some people that 192 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: may have been on vocal, others who were not. 193 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:23,200 Speaker 3: You had Huey P. 194 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: Newton. You know, when we think about the moment of 195 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 2: the women's liberation period, who was writing a public letter 196 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 2: write in support of the women's liberation movement and the 197 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 2: gay liberation movement. And so the Panthers were in conversation 198 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 2: with the when you put it in a proper context, 199 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: with the when we think of the feminist movement, when 200 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: we think of women's liberation, when we think of from 201 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 2: coalitions with progressive organizations, and so they were having those 202 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: internal conversations and internal debates, and we actually see this 203 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 2: charted this history and the Black Panther Party newspaper. You 204 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 2: see these conversations women really being active as first vocal 205 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: about talking about perhaps the sexism that may have been 206 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 2: in their chapters or mithogyny. But this looked different depending 207 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 2: on when and where we're talking about it, what time periods. 208 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, can you say more, 209 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: Doctor Phillis about the relationship between the women of the 210 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: Black Panther Party and Black feminist thought and theory that 211 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: was being developed at that time. 212 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so women in the Black Panther Party were in conversation. 213 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the Black Panther Party newspaper, and I'm 214 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: thinking about an interview that the Panthers had did with 215 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:58,600 Speaker 2: various organizers and the Women's Liberation Movement, various organizers and 216 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 2: many Black feminists organizations. Per Se, when we think about 217 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: women that were in the Panthers, they may not have 218 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 2: agreed completely right in some regards. Some women with some 219 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 2: of the leaders in the Black feminist movement. However, they 220 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 2: were always in conversation, so some had kind of, you know, 221 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 2: there were agreements, and in others they talked about their differences. 222 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 2: But fundamentally, when we think about rights, when we think 223 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: about equality, when we think about justice, when we think 224 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 2: about having the ability to make a choice and have 225 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 2: an autonomy over our bodies, there is agreement, right, and 226 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 2: so the fundamental ideas around Black feminist thoughts, many women 227 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: in a Black Panther Party also held tight in those 228 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: principles of ideas as well. 229 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: So, doctor Hillers, You've talked about the spiritual practices, and 230 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: it sounds like some emotional health practices that Erica developed 231 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: while she was in prison that you feel like we're 232 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: very helpful for her and you feel like there is 233 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: some extrapolation we can do for today's time. Can you 234 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: talk more about some of those practices in what you saw? 235 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, Erica was incarcerated for a crime she didn't commit. 236 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 2: She was incarcerated for two years from nineteen sixty nine 237 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: to nineteen seventy one. During that time, she endured horrendous 238 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 2: prison violence. So the book helps us look at not 239 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 2: just what Black Panther party activism among women look like 240 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 2: on the streets of Connecticut and Oakland, California, but also 241 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: what did that look. 242 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 3: Like behind bars? 243 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: Right, looking at that extension and how that work extended 244 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 2: behind bars, and when Erica was placed in isolation and 245 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: medical isolation, she was segregated. Her and the rest of 246 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: the Panthers that were incarcerated were the first political prisoners 247 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 2: that prison. Niatic prisoner is what I refer to it 248 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,239 Speaker 2: in the book as the genet your correctional institution today. 249 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 2: They were the first political prisoners that had ever been 250 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: at that prison, and the state didn't know what to 251 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 2: do with them, and so they separated them out of 252 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 2: fear that they would incite rebellion and a riot. However, 253 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: many women in a general population still communicating with them, 254 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: and so one of the first things the panther women 255 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: did to support each other was to take care of 256 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 2: each other. Some of the women were pregnant. Even though 257 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 2: food is viewed as punishment in prison, and oftentimes it 258 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 2: wasn't even edible, like you couldn't even eat the food 259 00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: or what have you. But when it was they would 260 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 2: share the better parts of their filled with other women, 261 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: the other panther women who was incarcerated with them, and 262 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: so they developed what I called a wellness rhythm to 263 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: take care of each other. One of the panther women 264 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 2: had arthritis and she couldn't move because of the cold 265 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: cement floors, and so the other panther women would carry her. 266 00:16:57,440 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 3: Around as needed. 267 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 2: They truly did take care one another. And one thing 268 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 2: Erica did during that time is she turned to one 269 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 2: of the lawyers on her legal team, Charles Gary, who 270 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 2: was a yogi. 271 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 3: He was a yoga expert. 272 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: He used to do headstanf before he went into the courtroom. 273 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 2: So she turned to her and said she needed a 274 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 2: book on yoga, and so he gave her one, and 275 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: she self taught herself yoga and meditation so that she 276 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 2: could keep herself alive. One of the main motivating factors 277 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 2: and why she did this is because she was a 278 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 2: new mother. Her husband at the time, John Huggins's mother 279 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 2: would bring her daughter May to prison on a Saturday 280 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 2: for a hour to visit Erica, and Erica wanted her 281 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 2: daughter to see her well, healthy, fully present. She didn't 282 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: want her seeing her sad and wilter and sick. Teaching 283 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: herself meditation and yoyoga was critical and allowed her to 284 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 2: be fully present for those Saturday jasus for her daughter. 285 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: That was destroy for her motivation, and she continued with that, 286 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 2: and part of that was being able to take time 287 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: to do her own reflection, her own healing from the 288 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 2: inside out. She did her yoga when time permitted, yoga meditation, 289 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: oftentimes not getting more than thirty minutes because we are 290 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 2: in prison and time is not her own. And then 291 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 2: when she was moved to the general population, she knew 292 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 2: that she needed the larger community to help sustain her 293 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: and so she built a women's centered community organization. And 294 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,720 Speaker 2: I'll talk about in the book called the Sister Love Collective, 295 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:51,600 Speaker 2: and they developed a host of resources and support pieces 296 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: that were part of the program or a part of 297 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 2: the collective to help eat one another. So really addressed 298 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:03,400 Speaker 2: their social, medical, psychological needs for one another. And that 299 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: includes starting a hair salon that includes refashion and the 300 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 2: prison uniforms, that include starting a women's bell fund. So 301 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 2: all of this with very little resources, utilizing networks, creating 302 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: networks right in These are all forms of wellness as 303 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: I define the spiritual wellness initiatives and programs, and these 304 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 2: are activities to integrate the mind, the body, and the soul. 305 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: What pieces of that did she continue kind of after 306 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: she was released, doctor Phillips, So I would imagine that 307 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: some of this men found its way into the curriculum 308 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: and the centers and things. Can you say more about that? 309 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, So when she got her freedom and got 310 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: out of prison, she went right back to work with 311 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 2: the Black Panther Party. One thing that she did she 312 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 2: started to become a teacher at the school first and 313 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 2: then initially most director of the Panthers ocaland Community School, 314 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 2: and she brought the practice of yoga and meditation to 315 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: the young elementary school students in the school, when a 316 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 2: student was disruptive or maybe messing with the other kids 317 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 2: that what have you, she would have that student go 318 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 2: do yoga to refocus their energies. 319 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 3: There was a moment in the. 320 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 2: School where the whole school meditated to really be present 321 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: with your innate greatness, as she described it. Yoga and 322 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 2: meditation were these practices that were central that she brought 323 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 2: to students. She also brought in yogi experts that would 324 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: come in and. 325 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 3: Work with the students as well. 326 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,919 Speaker 2: That became really important. One thing we learned from the 327 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 2: work of Erica and others is that given the state 328 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 2: violence that the Panthers often experienced, there was a gap 329 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 2: and there was a need for spirituality in the organization. 330 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 2: And she helped feel that gap where we think about 331 00:20:57,240 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 2: organizationally with the Panthers. 332 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: Because something knows you right about doctor Phillis is Erica's queerness. 333 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: And I wonder, how do you feel like her, like 334 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: just identity and her role as a queer woman in 335 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: the Black Panther Party. How do you feel like that 336 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: expanded the party's ideas you talked about like feeling like 337 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: they you know, oftimes we're supporting the gay rights movements 338 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: and things like that. How do you feel like her 339 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: presence really helped to expand their thoughts there? 340 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: Well, you know, to panthers, and I've heard many panthers 341 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: say this, They believed they were going to die. Erica 342 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 2: described her time in the Panthers as living. 343 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 3: In the war. 344 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: And so this is during the time of the free 345 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 2: love movement. And so through Erica's story we learn that 346 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 2: many Panthers loved who they loved unapologetically. So love when 347 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: we think about pleasure, and we think about what is 348 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 2: their pleasure in the struggle, and that is that idea 349 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 2: to love who you want to love on apology jetically 350 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 2: And so we see her embracing all of who she 351 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: was right she in a book I talk about her 352 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 2: coming to terms with her queer identity. It wasn't accepted 353 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: in the church that she went to, but over time, 354 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 2: through going to her aunt and talking things out with 355 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: her slowly accepting I love freely and it's not about 356 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: if you are particular. 357 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 3: Gender or not. 358 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 2: Right, love is love is love. And so when you 359 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 2: think about it in that particular context, particularly with the 360 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 2: war that was placed out on the Panthers, and one 361 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: thing is really important. I cite this scholarship in my 362 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: work when we think about queer futures and we're thinking 363 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 2: about the idea to see the future in the present 364 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: in Erica, and when we think about the larger work 365 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 2: on the Panthers, that's one of their visions. 366 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 3: That's something that you. 367 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 2: Can see in the programs that they were creating in 368 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 2: the way that you know, and particularly in Cherica's life 369 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: and how she approached love and her relationships. 370 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I wonder, you know, if you had a 371 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,200 Speaker 1: chance doctor Phillis's talk with Erica, maybe even other Panthers 372 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: that you've been doing your research just about what they 373 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: see now and like how the work that they did 374 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: maybe have set a blueprint for how we can continue 375 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: to resist and continue to organize in today's time. 376 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And so what I notice about many moments 377 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 2: today when we think about Black Lives Matter and other movements, 378 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 2: they are studying the work of the Panthers. They are 379 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: in conversation with Erica Huggins, they are in conversation with 380 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 2: Antheler Davis, right. They are studying their work and their 381 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 2: activism and using a Fatoshi cour and really thinking about 382 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 2: their critically movements today and how their movements inform how 383 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 2: the past informed the present. And I think also they 384 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 2: are studying a black feminist movement. They have language to 385 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 2: their disposal that was being developed when we think about 386 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: earlier movements. They are really developing agendas and principles that 387 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: are really aware about intersectionality, that are really engaging women's 388 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 2: issues and the multiplicity that come to them when we 389 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 2: think about race, class, and gender and very nuanced ways 390 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 2: from studying the past. And so I know that Erica 391 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 2: Huggins and many of the other Panthers are celebrating the work, 392 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 2: and like I said, they're constantly engaging with them in 393 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: whatever rays they can. 394 00:24:48,400 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So giving them 395 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: so much of your research uncovered how spiritual practices and 396 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: emotional wellness practices really were a guideline for them, I'm 397 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: wondering if there are any new practices that you developed 398 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: as you learn more about the things that they were doing. 399 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for that question. And so for me, 400 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: I didn't just want to write about yoga and meditation. 401 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: I felt like I needed to put it into practice 402 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: so that I can actually feel what. 403 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 3: Erica was experiencing. 404 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 2: What does it really do inside the body, right, and 405 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: it helped me better write the power and the potential 406 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 2: of what yoga meditation can do inside the body. 407 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 3: I also have a. 408 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,199 Speaker 2: Strong network of black women writers other historians who are 409 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 2: also doing this work. The community work and the networking 410 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: that is essential to the work of Erica and building 411 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: in wellness practic is that helps sustain us as some 412 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,600 Speaker 2: of the things that I've been doing as a scholar 413 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: as well. 414 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: So yeah, so what would you say you were most 415 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 1: surprised by in the research and writing of the book. 416 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: Oh, man, that's a really good question. One of the 417 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: things that most surprised me is some of the moments 418 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 2: the book really encapsulates or encapsulates, excuse me. It humanizes 419 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 2: Erica right and humanizes the women in the Black Panther Party, 420 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: And so the book really showcases all that comes with 421 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:47,879 Speaker 2: our full humanity. And so some of the surprises for 422 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: me were moments that I talk about in the book. 423 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 2: For example, what Erica might not have been her best self? 424 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: She was young, she was twenty one, right when she 425 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 2: was nineteen twenty twenty one, twenty two, one of the 426 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: longest serving women members in a Black Panther Party, when 427 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 2: we think of her activism, and there were times when 428 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 2: she wasn't her best self, and there were times when 429 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: she made from choices that I don't know if she 430 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 2: would have made twenty years later. Right, she was under 431 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 2: a lot of pressure when she was one of the 432 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: Black Panther Party school. 433 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 3: On the Central Committee. 434 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 2: She was going through her own particular kinds of personal 435 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: experiences and at times she called harm to other people. 436 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 2: And she's done a lot of restorative justice work around that, 437 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: and I've been in a lot of conversations with those 438 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: that she harm around that. But some of the things 439 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 2: that I talk about in the book I think was 440 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 2: a bit surprising for me once I learned it, but 441 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 2: I also put it in a proper context to give 442 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 2: you a full picture of everything, and that the kind 443 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: of pressure that she was up against as well. 444 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 3: So those were some. 445 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 2: Of the surprises in the book. That's the first thing 446 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: that comes to mind as far as surprises. 447 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, we've kind of talked about how, you know, 448 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 1: the women in the Black Panther Party have been unsung, 449 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: but thinks to scholars like you and others are really 450 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 1: highlighting the women. But I think today we do see 451 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: women Black women specifically, like at the forefront of a 452 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: lot of the liberation movements, right, What do you think 453 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: has contributed to that shift? 454 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 2: Black women were always at the forefront of these liberation movements. 455 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 2: I think some of the language around the backbone type 456 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 2: of language I've heard oftentimes people say women were the 457 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 2: backbone of these mo movements. And I really trouble that 458 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 2: type of language because if we study it, even when 459 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: we study it deeply, we see that Black women were 460 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 2: always at the center of these movements. 461 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 3: And the way that have been when we think. 462 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: About the public right, guts and historians are really unpacking 463 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 2: all of that, but the way it's been told in 464 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 2: a public view is told through this kind of sexist 465 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: leans that women in the back. And so when I 466 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 2: think any movement that I can think of, women have 467 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 2: always been at the front, and I always have been 468 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 2: at the center. And we're critical to the work and 469 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 2: to the activism, to the political organizing. 470 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 3: And so they've always been there. 471 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: You know. I think many of us have been surprised 472 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,800 Speaker 1: to learn how holistic the practices that were being used 473 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: in the Black Panther Party, like the yoga and meditation 474 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: and these different kinds of things. And so it feels like, 475 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: even though we have been doing that as a part 476 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: of supporting our community for a very long time, the 477 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: language of mental health in the black community, it feels 478 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: like it's still slower to catch up. Why do you 479 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: think that is even though we've been kind of doing 480 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 1: that for so long. 481 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 2: You know, I think it has a lot to deal 482 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 2: with the period of slavery, right as a community, We've 483 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 2: been through a long history of government assault of state 484 00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: terra on our bodies, on our minds, and and. 485 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 3: We are still here. We're pushing through. 486 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 2: And when I think about enslavement of black bodies, I 487 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 2: think about the period of Jim Crow. I think about 488 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways when we think about the 489 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 2: government today and trying to take us back to the 490 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 2: period of Jim Crow. Mental health has been some racist 491 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: connotations that's come out of that, and I think it's 492 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 2: been a protective mechanism, right, And you see that kind 493 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: of struggle, right, I think mental health has come a 494 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 2: long way. There's been so much activism around mental health. 495 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 3: Even when we think about. 496 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: What activism around black men getting the kind of mental 497 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 2: health that's needed to black women, or when I think 498 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 2: about a larger community in general how far we've come. 499 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 2: But I think it's been a protective mechanism and also 500 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,479 Speaker 2: as a community not quite understanding how to talk about 501 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 2: these things. Thanks, right, this fear of being viewed is 502 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 2: something that you're not being able to unpack that and 503 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: understand that we live in a world where we are 504 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 2: under assault, and so we need to do that kind 505 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: of internal healing work to heal from within when we 506 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: think about the multiple ways that we've been attacked. It's 507 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 2: a way to get the support and the help that 508 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 2: we need to live in a society if that has 509 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 2: a history of racism and white supremacy that we're still 510 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 2: living till a day m h. 511 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: You know, doctor Phillips, if it is true that history 512 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: repeats itself, I wonder, as a historian, what do you 513 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: have to say, any things or just any random thoughts 514 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: you have about like the moment in time we find 515 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: ourselves in right now. 516 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 2: You know, when I think about the government and I 517 00:31:54,600 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: think about this intentional way that we are being pushed 518 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 2: back to a bygone day almost with an attempt to 519 00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 2: really strip us of our humanity. And we've been through 520 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 2: this before. We've been through moments like this and before. 521 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: We are constantly fighting for our humanity right. So I 522 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: see a lot of things that has happened that's happening now, 523 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 2: happened before in different periods. If we're studying the period 524 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 2: of enslavement right, if we're studying the civil rights movement right, 525 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 2: fighting for how our humanity has been consistent for us 526 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 2: right and developing tools to keep us alive and to 527 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 2: keep us thriving, to say we matter and we're here, 528 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: and to resist this kind of white supremist violence that's 529 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 2: been placed on us and consistently placed on us. 530 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: What are your whole for how people engage with your book, 531 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: and what are some of the takeaways you hope that 532 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: they leave with. 533 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 3: I hope that readers. 534 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:14,280 Speaker 2: Really see the power in Erica's story. I'm hoping that 535 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 2: the story gives readers a sense of strength, gives a 536 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,160 Speaker 2: set of tools to help us think about the political 537 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: present and what we need to do to help us 538 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,239 Speaker 2: walk the world as full human beings and what that 539 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: means for us on the inside, and reignite a deepening 540 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 2: fire to heal ourselves from family trauma, heal ourselves from 541 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: state violence, to heal ourselves and to do the work 542 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 2: that we have to do within to understand that we 543 00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 2: have power within each and. 544 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 3: Every one of us. 545 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: Us Erica tapped into that when she was at the 546 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:05,719 Speaker 2: lowest part of her life. 547 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 3: The state was trying to kill us, kill her. 548 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 2: She was incarcerated, she was in prison. She had to 549 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 2: turn outward right to do the Ontono work that was 550 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 2: necessary for her own healing for herself. She didn know 551 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: if she would get out of prison, but she knew 552 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 2: that she could not let this prison cure her. 553 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 3: And so I'm. 554 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 2: Hoping that readers take that energy and take the story 555 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 2: and apply it to their own lives and whatever way 556 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 2: serves them. 557 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: So where can we stay connected with you, doctor Phillipson, 558 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 1: So what's your website as well as any social media 559 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,759 Speaker 1: handles you'd like to share And where can we grab 560 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: a copy of the book? 561 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: Yes, and so the book is as it's literally everywhere. 562 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 2: It's on Audible, it's at all the bookstores, Barnes and Noble, 563 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 2: It's on the NYU Press website. My website is maryforsus 564 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,880 Speaker 2: Phillips dot com. On my website, there's a way to 565 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 2: stay connected with me. And so you could get the 566 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 2: audible version. You could get it from any bookstore. It 567 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 2: is available everywhere at the book beautiful. 568 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending some time with us today, 569 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: doctor Phillips. 570 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been wonderful. 571 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm so glad doctor Phillips was able to 572 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,520 Speaker 1: join us with this conversation and share more about her work. 573 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: To learn more about doctor Phillips or to grab a 574 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: copy of the book, we should have visited the show 575 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com says session four 576 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: one five, and don't forget to text two of your 577 00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: girls right now and tell them to check out the episode. 578 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: Did you know that you could leave us a voicemail 579 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: with your questions or suggestions for the podcast. Do you 580 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 1: have a movie or a book you like us to review, 581 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: or have thoughts about a guest you'd like to hear. 582 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: Drop us a voice message at Memo dot fm, slash 583 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,440 Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls and let us know what's on 584 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,279 Speaker 1: your mind. We just might feature it on the podcast. 585 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit 586 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,480 Speaker 1: our therapist directory at Therapy from Blackgirls dot com slash directory. 587 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elie Ellis, Indechubu and Tyree Rush. 588 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,879 Speaker 1: Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank y'all so much 589 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: for joining me again this week. I look forward to 590 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,399 Speaker 1: continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care,