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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Coburger Brian Coburger guilty and

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Speaker 1: sentenced life plus life plus life plus life. That's four

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Speaker 1: life sentences plus ten. Is it justice? I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us in the last hours. Convicted quadruple killer

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger in a court of law and now sentenced.

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Speaker 1: The families of the four victims filing out of that courtroom.

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Speaker 1: Many people call it closure. Let me inform you there

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Speaker 1: is no such thing as closure when the person you

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Speaker 1: love the most is murdered. Let's take a listen to

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Speaker 1: Judge Hippler on the bench.

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Speaker 2: I am not able to come up with anything redeeming

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Speaker 2: about mister Coburger because his grotesque acts of evil have

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Speaker 2: buried in hidden anything that might have been good or

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Speaker 2: prinsically human about him. His actions have made him the

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Speaker 2: worst of the worst. Even impleading guilty is giving nothing

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Speaker 2: hinting of remorse or redemption, nothing suggesting even a recognition

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Speaker 2: or understanding, let alone regret for the pain that he

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Speaker 2: has caused. And therefore I will not attempt to speak

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Speaker 2: about him further other than to simply sentence him. So

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Speaker 2: that he is forever removed from civilized society.

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Speaker 1: Himpler tees it up. Then he brings down the hammer. Listen.

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Speaker 2: Recognizing the standards that govern this Court's sentencing decisions as

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Speaker 2: set forth in state be two Hill, I hereby sentence

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Speaker 2: mister Coburger as follows on count one burglary ten years fixed,

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Speaker 2: zero years indeterminate. I also impose a fine of fifty

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars. Count two, first degree murder of Madison Mogen I,

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Speaker 2: sentence the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment

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Speaker 2: without the possibility of parole, a fine of fifty thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars and a civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable

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Speaker 2: to the family of the victim. On count three, for

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Speaker 2: first degree murder of Kaylei gonsalvs I, sentence the defendant

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Speaker 2: to a fixed term of life imprisonment without the possibility

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Speaker 2: of parole, a fine of fifty thousand dollars and a

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Speaker 2: civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable to the victim

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Speaker 2: of the family or to the family of the victim.

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Speaker 3: Pardon me.

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Speaker 2: On count four for the first degree murder of Santa

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Speaker 2: Kernodle I sentence the defendant to a fixed term of

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Speaker 2: life imprisonment without the possibility of parole, a fine of

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Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars and a civil penalty of five thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars payable to the family of the victim. On count five,

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Speaker 2: for the first degree murder of Ethan Chapin, I sentenced

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Speaker 2: the defendant to a fixed term of life imprisonment without

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Speaker 2: the possibility of parole, a fine of fifty thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: and a civil penalty of five thousand dollars payable to

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Speaker 2: the family of the victim. The sentences on counts one, two, three, four,

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Speaker 2: and five shall run consecutively to one another. I remand

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Speaker 2: the defendant to the custody of the Otto State Board

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Speaker 2: of Corrections for to be imprisoned and an appropriate facility

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Speaker 2: and execution of the sentence, where he will remain until

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Speaker 2: he dies.

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Speaker 1: You've heard from many outlets that the defendant, Brian Coberg,

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Speaker 1: will be sentenced to life behind bars. That is not correct.

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Speaker 1: This is life without the possibility of parole. And for

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Speaker 1: good measure, Hippler, who have got to give a lot

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Speaker 1: of credit an amazing judge on the banch throughout this ordeal.

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Speaker 1: For added good measure. He ran the life without Possibility

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Speaker 1: of parole consecutively, which means that when you finished one sentence,

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Speaker 1: that's when the next sentence starts. A lot of judges

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Speaker 1: sentence concurrently, where one life sentence runs at the same

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Speaker 1: time as the next one, which gives a lot of

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Speaker 1: leeway for a defendant to get out from behind bars.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we've seen it over and over again where

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Speaker 1: the laws change or circumstances change, and somehow a defendant

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Speaker 1: sentence to life actually walks free. Yes, It's happened quite often.

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, perfect example, Charles Manson gets sentenced to a

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Speaker 1: very stiff sentence and that would be the DP and

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Speaker 1: then in that jurisdiction California is determined the DPE death

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Speaker 1: penalty is unconstitutional, so his sentence was changed, setting Charles

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Speaker 1: Manson up for parole. Yes, in this case, Hippler, God

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Speaker 1: bless him, sentences Coburger to life without parole, then life

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Speaker 1: without parole, and two more times to run consecutively. I've

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Speaker 1: got an all star panel, but I want to go

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Speaker 1: straight to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,

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Speaker 1: author of Blood Beneath My feet on Amazon. Host of

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Speaker 1: a star podcast Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: even though he's been sentenced to ELWOP life without parole.

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Speaker 1: At the end of that hearing today, just an hour ago,

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Speaker 1: I felt empty. I felt empty. You out of this

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Speaker 1: panel have seen so many death scenes as of I

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Speaker 1: Why the empty feeling, Jo Scott. It doesn't feel like justice.

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Speaker 4: Because there's no way Nancy to replace these precious souls.

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Speaker 4: There will always be an empty chair at every Thanksgiving table,

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Speaker 4: at every Christmas table. This is That's what makes this

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Speaker 4: so unsatisfying. You cannot replace those kids, period into paragraph.

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Speaker 4: That's what makes it so unsatisfying as far as I'm concerned.

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Speaker 1: You know, Joe Scott, you like me, have children, and

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Speaker 1: I think about, like, right now, I'm already planning the birthday,

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Speaker 1: What am I going to do? What am I going

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Speaker 1: to do for Christmas? And it spins out and in

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Speaker 1: my mind it's this endless path of my family and

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Speaker 1: me my husband with them, what do they have? All

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Speaker 1: they had was today The answers have been taken away

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Speaker 1: from them because there was no trial. We're getting bits

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Speaker 1: and pieces of information now that just make me sick,

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Speaker 1: sick to think that his motive was his sick pervy fetishes,

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Speaker 1: that he wanted to rape women that were passed out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we're learning so much more. We're learning that

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Speaker 1: the defense was going to be blaming some of the

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Speaker 1: victim's friends. That was the defense. We're finding out that

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Speaker 1: his car was absolutely identified in the area, tagging everything

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Speaker 1: multiple times that night. There's even an eyewitness that identifies

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Speaker 1: him at the home the night of the murders. This

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Speaker 1: case would have been a death penalty in the end.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that even that would have satisfied

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Speaker 1: a desire for justice. Here, we've got the future to

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Speaker 1: look forward to. They've got nothing except today when they

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Speaker 1: gave those victim impact statements. Joe Scott, that's all they've got.

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Speaker 4: No, You're absolutely right, And look, I got to tell

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Speaker 4: you thank you for making the comment about the word closure.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the biggest lives that's ever been sold

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Speaker 4: to people that are going through grief. You do, you

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Speaker 4: do not, on any level achieve closure. It's very dissatisfying,

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Speaker 4: you know. And I've dealt with so many families over

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Speaker 4: the years, Nancy that still call me. You know, they

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Speaker 4: would call me seven years after the fact, after they

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Speaker 4: had lost a loved one, many of them drunk. Can

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Speaker 4: you imagine that in the middle of the night, I'd

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Speaker 4: still be on duty at the m's office, just wanting

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Speaker 4: to have somebody to talk to because no one else understood.

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Speaker 4: And I can't say that I could even plumb the

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Speaker 4: depths of it, but I was at the scene and

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Speaker 4: I talked to them, and that's that one point of

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Speaker 4: contact that they have Nancy over the years. And you

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Speaker 4: never stop missing the person, you never have closure. You

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Speaker 4: know why, because this guy, this convicted five time felon

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Speaker 4: now is still breathing air and their kids are not

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Speaker 4: He sentenced, not just he's sentenced these families. Please hear

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Speaker 4: me right on this. He sentenced these families to life

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Speaker 4: imprisonment along with him. They had no choice in this matter.

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Speaker 4: They are all that remains. They have been sentenced as well.

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Speaker 1: The victims in this case who are brutally murdered. From

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Speaker 1: the beginning, we were told they were murdered in their sleep.

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Speaker 1: That's not true. That is not true. Joining me, Susan Hendrix,

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Speaker 1: you know her well, She's been with us all day

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Speaker 1: long outside the courthouse. She's the author of Down the Hill,

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Speaker 1: My Descend into the double murder in Delphi, and now

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Speaker 1: she has latched onto this case like nobody's business. I

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Speaker 1: want to welcome Susan Hendricks for being with us. Susan,

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Speaker 1: we found out now that Xana had come down the

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Speaker 1: stairs and she fought for her life. She fought for

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Speaker 1: her life. That's nothing like what we were told to

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Speaker 1: start with.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, and when new details come out, they're just more

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Speaker 5: excruciating for the family. We have heard that maybe she

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Speaker 5: saw something, heard something was getting of course the door

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Speaker 5: dash as you know, and then maybe he chased her

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Speaker 5: you mentioned, And I thought this was key, that this

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Speaker 5: is all they had.

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Speaker 6: Was today.

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Speaker 5: I was in the courtroom and I could see it,

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Speaker 5: Nancy building the tension, Kelly's his knee was shaking. He

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Speaker 5: was to the right of me and his knee was shaking,

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Speaker 5: and I could tell he was going through what he

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Speaker 5: was going to say. So he's almost like practicing. And

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Speaker 5: it's all they had, and they gave it everything they've

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Speaker 5: been wanting to say this for so long, everything that

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Speaker 5: they wanted to say. And I will say there was

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Speaker 5: a ten minute break in between and I looked at

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Speaker 5: Kelly's dad, and I said, you did a great job

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Speaker 5: in Kelly's sister and they said thank you and they

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Speaker 5: were smiling.

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Speaker 6: I feel like it's so healing to get that out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I disagree, Susan, I disagree. I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you why. I hadn't had this memory for a decade,

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Speaker 1: two decades, But as we were hearing about Dylan Mortenson

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Speaker 1: stating that she had to go and sleep in her

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Speaker 1: mother's bed for so long after this, I remember sleeping

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Speaker 1: with my mother and my father in their little bed

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Speaker 1: after my fiance's murder. Those memories, like Joe Scott was saying,

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Speaker 1: they never go away and they come back at the

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Speaker 1: most improbable moments. So all this about healing and coclosure

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Speaker 1: and no closure, there's no such thing. And I really

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Speaker 1: resent people that have never been through it talk about

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Speaker 1: how all the victims' families are healed because they spoke

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Speaker 1: for five minutes in a courtroom. But I can tell

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Speaker 1: you one thing that happened in this hearing, and I

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Speaker 1: know you saw it. Tuesdays and Hendricks Killey Gounsovus's sister

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Speaker 1: let him have it. She said a lot of what

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Speaker 1: we all wanted to say to coburger. Listen.

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Speaker 7: My name is Olivia, and I'm the big sister of

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Speaker 7: Keilly Gonsalvez, and I was blessed to love Madison Mogan

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Speaker 7: as a sister too. I'm not here today to speak

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Speaker 7: in grief. I'm here to speak in truth because the

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Speaker 7: truth is, my sister Kayley and her best friend Mattie

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Speaker 7: were not yours to take. They were not yours to study,

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Speaker 7: to stalk, or to silence. They were two pieces of

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Speaker 7: a whole, the perfect yin and yang. They are everything

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Speaker 7: that you could never be loved, accepted, vibrant, accomplished, brave

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Speaker 7: and powerful. Because the truth about Kayley and Maddy, they

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Speaker 7: would have been kind to you if you would approach

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Speaker 7: them in their everyday lives. They would have given you directions,

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Speaker 7: thanked you for the compliment, or awkwardly giggled to make

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Speaker 7: your own words less uncomfortable for you in a world

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Speaker 7: that rejected you. They would have shown mercy. Because the

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Speaker 7: truth is, I'm angry. Every day I'm angry. I'm left

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Speaker 7: shouting at the inside of my own head. Everything I

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Speaker 7: wish I could say to you. The truth about me

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Speaker 7: is when I heard the news, I didn't cry I

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Speaker 7: listened for them. I promised them I would that I

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Speaker 7: would fight for them, that I would show up no

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Speaker 7: matter what it cost me.

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Speaker 1: That's Olivia Gonsalva said. She starts off talking about her sister,

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Speaker 1: then she lays in to Coburger.

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Speaker 7: I won't stand here and give you what you want.

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Speaker 7: I won't offer you tears, I won't offer you trembling

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Speaker 7: disappointments like you thrive on pain, on fear, and on

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Speaker 7: the illusion of power, And I won't feed your beast. Instead,

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Speaker 7: I will call you what you are, sociopath, psychopath, murderer.

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Speaker 7: I will ask the questions that reverberate violently in my

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Speaker 7: own head, so loudly that I can't think straight most

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Speaker 7: any day. Some of these might be familiar, So set

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Speaker 7: up straight.

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Speaker 1: I talk to you.

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Speaker 7: How is your life right before you murdered my sisters?

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Speaker 7: Did you prepare for the crime before leaving your apartment?

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Speaker 7: Please detail what you were thinking and feeling at this time.

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Speaker 7: Why did you choose my sisters before making your move?

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Speaker 7: Did you approach my sisters? Detail what you were thinking

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Speaker 7: and feeling before leaving their home? Is there anything else

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Speaker 7: you did?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 7: How does it feel to know the only thing you

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Speaker 7: failed more miserably at than being a murderer is trying.

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Speaker 1: To be a rapper?

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Speaker 7: Did you recently start shaving or manually pulling out your eyebrows?

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Speaker 2: Why?

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Speaker 7: November thirteenth, did you truly think your Amazon purchase was

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Speaker 7: untraceable because you used a gift card? How do you

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Speaker 7: find it enjoyable to stargaze with such a severe case

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Speaker 7: of visual snow? Where is the murder weapon? The clothes

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Speaker 7: you wore that night? What did you bring into the

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Speaker 7: house with you? What was the second weapon you used

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Speaker 7: on Keyley? What were Kaylee's last words?

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Speaker 1: Joining me right now is a special guest, Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 1: She's a forensic expert. She is the founder and director

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Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute, and she's the star

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Speaker 1: of a hit podcast, Zone seven. Cheryl McCollum is joining

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Speaker 1: us from the field now. Cheryl McCollum. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if anybody else caught this. I bet you did. You're

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Speaker 1: hearing Liva go Solvice as Keille Goslves as sister, and

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Speaker 1: she's reading right out of the questionnaire the Coburger gave

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Speaker 1: to all those violent felons as part of his pH

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Speaker 1: d study did you hear did you prepare? How was

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Speaker 1: your life right before you murdered my sisters before leaving

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Speaker 1: your apartment? Detail what you were thinking and feeling at

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Speaker 1: the time. Why did you choose this victim before you

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Speaker 1: made your move? Did you approach the victim? Detail what

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Speaker 1: you were thinking and feeling before leaving your home? Is

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Speaker 1: there anything else you did? She is knifing him with

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Speaker 1: his own words, Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 2: It was brilliant.

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Speaker 8: It was so unbelievably delivered. You're talking about a young

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Speaker 8: woman that is staring down the monster that killed her sister,

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Speaker 8: and she said, you will get no tears from me.

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Speaker 8: You are not going to see me shaking my boots

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Speaker 8: looking at you. And then when she delivered his own

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Speaker 8: words back to him, it was like nothing I've ever seen, Naki,

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Speaker 8: You and I have seen thousands of these. Normally it's

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Speaker 8: only about the victim when she turned it on him.

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Speaker 8: Are not just questions he had, but I think they're

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Speaker 8: valid to what the family deserves to know.

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Speaker 1: And Cheryl, everyone keeps talking about, well, he showed no emotion, Cheryl,

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Speaker 1: I never have, but I've seen people have pet lizards

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Speaker 1: or sometimes maybe an iguana, but let me just go

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Speaker 1: with lizard. It doesn't show emotion. It's called blooded. It's

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Speaker 1: a reptile. Throughout the entire sentencing, Coburger sat there and

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Speaker 1: showed no emotion. What did everybody think was going to happen?

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Speaker 1: That he'd start crying and beg forgiveness and say he

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Speaker 1: was sorry and tell us the truth. No, in fact,

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Speaker 1: anything he says with this point on is a lie,

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Speaker 1: and it's only for his self gratification or for he

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Speaker 1: has aggrandizement. Of course, he didn't even I don't even

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Speaker 1: know if I saw him blink.

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Speaker 8: Cheryl, You're absolutely right, And I think that's another reason

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Speaker 8: when they addressed him about what he did, he did

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Speaker 8: not give them anything that he could get enjoyment from.

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Speaker 8: He didn't get that sadness, that gut wrenching. I caused

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Speaker 8: this chaos, I caused this heartache. They took that away

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Speaker 8: from them. I thought her words were not just brilliant,

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Speaker 8: but spot on, and it might have just set the

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Speaker 8: bar for everybody coming behind her.

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Speaker 1: You know, cherylmccall, I'm going to ask you a personal question.

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Speaker 1: In all the years i've known you, all the years

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Speaker 1: we've worked together, I've never asked you, have you ever

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Speaker 1: listened to testimony or in this case, a sentencing hearing

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Speaker 1: and get physically nauseous because I actually got sick to

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Speaker 1: my stomach listening to all this and hearing what these victims'

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Speaker 1: families lived through in the ordeal that they're still going through.

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Speaker 1: It was like the worst flashback I've had in years.

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Speaker 8: You know, I certainly.

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Speaker 9: Often, you know, would find myself just choking up, like

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Speaker 9: getting really emotional and crime because you can't hear it

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Speaker 9: as a sister, as a daughter, Now, especially.

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Speaker 8: As a mother, I can tell you I could stay

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Speaker 8: pretty good in control prior to having hunting Caroline. After that,

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Speaker 8: I'm much more sensitive. I'm much more apt to just

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Speaker 8: try to imagine the unthinkable, the just. There's no way

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Speaker 8: to put into words. You and I have talked about it, Nancy.

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Speaker 8: You and I have sat with more than one victim

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Speaker 8: and tried to help them craft their victim impact statement.

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Speaker 8: How do you put it into words what your child

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Speaker 8: means to you? It's impossible. But these families did a

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Speaker 8: remarkable job today, There's no doubt about it.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Can we all agree that the families were remarkable?

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Speaker 1: Every speaker in their own way was remarkable, but is

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Speaker 1: their justice? Will we ever know what happened? We may

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Speaker 1: never know a motive, We may never know how this

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Speaker 1: thing went down. And I've got to tell you there's

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Speaker 1: always questions and they never go away. For the rest

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Speaker 1: of the victims family's life. They're going to wonder, well,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, did she see who attacked her? Did

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Speaker 1: she have any idea? Had they ever met, did they

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Speaker 1: fight back?

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Speaker 2: What happened?

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Speaker 1: And those are questions not everybody wants to know the

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Speaker 1: answer to, but a lot of victims' families want to

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Speaker 1: know what happened in the last moments of their child's life.

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Speaker 1: You know, we read in news releases and obituaries X

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Speaker 1: died with their family around them. It wasn't like this

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Speaker 1: for the Idaho victims. They died at the hands of

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Speaker 1: Brian Koberger, who slaughtered them. And now we got to

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Speaker 1: give him three hats at a cot for the rest

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Speaker 1: of his life. Now, I do appreciate what Judge Hipler did.

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Speaker 1: I've got nothing bad to say about Hipler. Listen to

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Speaker 1: how he described that morning of November thirteen.

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Speaker 2: During the quiet morning hours of November thirteen, twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: a faceless coward reached the tranquility of six beautiful young

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Speaker 2: people and senselessly slaughtered them. Four of them. Who committed

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Speaker 2: this unspeakable evil was unknown for several weeks, but due

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Speaker 2: to the killers in competence and outstanding police work by

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Speaker 2: numerous local, state, and federal law enforcement agencies, the person

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Speaker 2: that slithered through that sliding glass door at one one

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Speaker 2: two two King Road now stands before the world, and

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Speaker 2: this court unmasked. This unfathomable and senseless act of evil

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Speaker 2: has caused immeasurable pain and loss. No parent should ever

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Speaker 2: have to bury their child. This is the greatest tragedy

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Speaker 2: that can be inflicted upon a person. Parents who took

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Speaker 2: their children to college in a truck filled with moving

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Speaker 2: boxes had to bring them home in hearses lined.

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Speaker 10: With collins.

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Speaker 1: Are.

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Speaker 11: One of the roommates has passed out.

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Speaker 8: And he a strong class and the up did you?

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Speaker 2: On November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, in Leayta County, State

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Speaker 2: of Idaho, kill and murder Madison Mogan, Kaylee Gonzalvez, Xana

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Speaker 2: kernodle Ethan chapin Yes Oh.

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Speaker 12: And they saw some man of their house that was Brian.

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Speaker 1: Kiberger gets life plus life plus Life plus Life plus

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Speaker 1: ten consecutively, one after the other, Life without parole, Will

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Speaker 1: there ever truly be justice? We got to pay for

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Speaker 1: three hots and a cot for this guy. We've got

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Speaker 1: to pay for his therapy and his iPad and his

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Speaker 1: vegan meals, and one day we're gonna have to pay

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Speaker 1: for his internet connection so he can zoom with people

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Speaker 1: to describe his side of the story and help coauthor

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Speaker 1: his book and his made for TV movie and blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah. Yeah, now I just figured out

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Speaker 1: why the whole thing made me nauseous because of that. Well,

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Speaker 1: one shining light in today was Olivia Gonsalves.

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Speaker 7: Please describe in detail the level of anxiety you must

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Speaker 7: have felt when you heard the bear cat pull up

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Speaker 7: to your family home. It's December thirtieth, twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 7: Which do you regret more returning to the crime scene

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Speaker 7: five hours later, or never ever going back to Moscow,

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Speaker 7: not even once after stalking them there for months. If

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Speaker 7: you're really smart, do you think you'd be here right now?

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Speaker 7: What's it like needing this much attention just to feel real?

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Speaker 7: You're terrified of being ordinary? Aren't you Do you feel

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Speaker 7: anything at all? Or are you exactly what you always feared? Nothing?

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Speaker 7: If you're so powerful, then why are you still hiding? Defendant?

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Speaker 7: You see I'm here today as me, But who are you?

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Speaker 7: Let's try to take off your mask and see.

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Speaker 1: Olivia Gonsalve is laying into Brian Coburger, and I find

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Speaker 1: it really interesting the way she talked to him and

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Speaker 1: asked him these questions, many of them out of his

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Speaker 1: own questionnaire, and that he, as part of his PhD studies,

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Speaker 1: would ask convicted violent felons behind bars, what were you

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Speaker 1: thinking before you committed the violent crime? What went through

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Speaker 1: your mind? How did she meet the victims? Just tons

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Speaker 1: and tons of personal questions, But here she talks about

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Speaker 1: many of the mistakes he made, mistakes that led to

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Speaker 1: his uncovering. What about it? Joe Scott Morgan?

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Speaker 4: You know he I think, I think that he longs

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Speaker 4: for this opportunity to talk to people. That's one of

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Speaker 4: the reasons he didn't say anything in the closing. That's

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Speaker 4: one of the things he didn't one of the reasons

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Speaker 4: we didn't have any form of elocution from him, Nancy.

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Speaker 4: He wants to control things on his own terms. I

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Speaker 4: love what the judge said relative to preventing him from

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Speaker 4: creating anything in the future. And can I admit one

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Speaker 4: thing to you real quick, Yes, the idea that he's

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Speaker 4: going to not be allowed to talk to anybody from

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Speaker 4: Hollywood about a story or whatever the judge alluded to.

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Speaker 4: That understand, academics are just as mercenary, okay, because they're

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Speaker 4: going to cloak themselves and say that we need to

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Speaker 4: study this guy. What the hell else do we have

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Speaker 4: to learn from him? Stick him in a deep dark hole.

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Speaker 4: I don't ever want to hear his name again after today.

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Speaker 4: To be perfectly honest.

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Speaker 1: With you, I agree, Joe Scott. I hope I never

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Speaker 1: hear him or see him again. But all of his

404
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Speaker 1: business about how he cannot appeal the plea, that's not right.

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Speaker 1: There's a US Supreme Court decision that says you can

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Speaker 1: appeal a guilty plea that you willingly and knowingly enter.

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Speaker 1: For instance, what if a year from now he finds

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Speaker 1: out that some other person confessed a false confession, he

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Speaker 1: could go back and claim neely discovered evidence and have

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Speaker 1: that guilty plea thrown out. That's just an example. Guilty,

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Speaker 1: Please can be appealed. So to think he'll never appeal this,

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Speaker 1: that's a pipe dream. But I was noticing in the questioning.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to go now to doctor Chavon Scott, psychotherapist,

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Speaker 1: a best selling author. Her new release is night Bird,

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Speaker 1: and she wrote The Minds of mass Killers. Doctor Chavon Scott,

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Speaker 1: There's so much more to say about you, but I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you about Olivia and solve this. Addressing

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Speaker 1: Brian Koberger in court, she says, if you are really smart,

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Speaker 1: do you think you'd be here right now? Do you? Uh?

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Speaker 1: What does it feel like to need this much attention

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Speaker 1: just to feel real? That? And other questions. I've got

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Speaker 1: them all laid down in front of me. She really

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Speaker 1: called him on all of his mistakes, about how he

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Speaker 1: looked down his nose at everybody else and felt superior

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Speaker 1: to everybody else, but now he's the one in shackles

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Speaker 1: in the orange jumpsuit.

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Speaker 10: Yeah.

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Speaker 13: I think she was brilliant because if you really want

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Speaker 13: a jab at this guy's ego, that's the way to

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Speaker 13: go about it is highlight his inadequacies, his mistakes, the

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Speaker 13: ways that he thought he was such a brilliant killer

432
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 13: and he was going to get away with it, and

433
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 13: he didn't, And you hit him in that ego because

434
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 13: we know he has an ego. And I think she

435
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 13: did that beautifully. It's one of the awful things about

436
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 13: psychopaths like this, who are sadistic. Often when they hear

437
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 13: the family's pain, they get a perverse sense of pleasure

438
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 13: out of it. They may sit there very stoic, they

439
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 13: may not have a reaction, but inside they're enjoying it.

440
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 13: I've heard them say I liked listening to the family

441
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 13: suffering because they get off on suffering.

442
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 1: Oh it's awful, Doctor Chevin Scott, I know that up

443
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: here that killers enjoy like watching on TV, watching the hunt,

444
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: watching the press conferences of people frantically looking for them.

445
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: They like watching the victim's family begging. They like it.

446
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 1: That's always been what I believed. But to hear you

447
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 1: say it, that you know it, that you've spoken to

448
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: killers that tell you they enjoyed it, I'm just wondering,

449
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, I'm just wondering if that piece of crap

450
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: Brian Coberger enjoyed watching the victims' families suffering in court

451
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: today because about based on what Chavin is telling me,

452
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: doctor Chevin Scott, he probably did that freaking pervy.

453
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 8: This is his big event. He calls all of this everything.

454
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 8: A person that showed up today showed up because of him.

455
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 8: Everybody upset he did it. Everybody that wasn't there, teachers

456
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 8: and neighbors and friends and fraternity brothers. He calls every

457
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 8: bit of that pain and anguish and chaos, every police officer,

458
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 8: he did it. This is the biggest thing he will

459
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 8: ever do in his life. This is the only thing

460
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 8: anybody's ever going to talk to him about, want to

461
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 8: hear from him about. He has nothing else to offer.

462
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 8: But I want to say one thing about justice. And

463
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 8: I want to make this really clear. When you talk

464
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 8: about an eye for an eye, that sounds even like

465
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 8: you took twenty dollars from me. You got to give

466
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 8: me twenty dollars back. There is nothing that you could

467
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 8: do to that man that would equal justice for those children.

468
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 8: They were beautiful, they were loving, they were given, they

469
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 8: were friendly, they were generous. He's none of those things.

470
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 8: Hands get justice from him. If we put him in

471
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 8: the electric chair and kill him, well, how many times

472
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,239
Speaker 8: do we get to killing? How many times do we

473
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 8: revive him and kill him again. There is nothing mid

474
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 8: evil enough we could do to him.

475
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: I've got a great answer for that. I would say four.

476
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: I'd say four four times too. Did you say kill

477
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: him and revive him again? Yeah? Might go that far

478
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: in seeking justice. I mean, I don't know if there

479
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 1: ever is justice, But I know one thing I know.

480
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: Olivia Gounsolves is a superstar. Listen to this.

481
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 7: You didn't create devastation. You revealed it, and it's in

482
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 7: yourself and that darkness you carry, that emptiness. You'll sit

483
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 7: with it long after this is over. That is your sentence,

484
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 7: and it was written on the wall long before you

485
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:57,920
Speaker 7: ever pled guilty. You didn't win. You just exposed yourself

486
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 7: as the poward you are. You're a dellusional, pathetic, hypochondriac

487
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 7: loser who thought you were so much smarter than everybody else,

488
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 7: constantly scolding, turning your nose up to grammar mistakes, nitpicking

489
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 7: and criticizing others. You wanted so badly to be different,

490
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 7: to be special, to be better, to be deep, to

491
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 7: be mysterious. You found yourself thinking you were better than

492
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 7: everyone else, and you thought you could figure out the

493
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 7: human psyche and see through it.

494
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 14: All while tweaked.

495
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 6: Out on heroin.

496
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 7: Lurking in the shadows made you feel powerful because no

497
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 7: one ever paid you any attention in the light.

498
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: Two words, the bomb, Olivia Gonsalves the bob. Did you

499
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 1: hear what? She said? Straight out to Greg Morris chomping

500
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: at the bit, veteran criminal defense attorney at Morse I Legal,

501
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: author of the Untested on Amazon, and you can find

502
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: them at morse Illegal dot com. Man, this girl's got

503
00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 1: a future in front of her if she wants to

504
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: be a felony prosecutor. Did you do you hear her?

505
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: You're right, constantly scolding. You know, nobody hates anything more

506
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 1: than I know it all, constantly scolding, turning your nose

507
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: up to grammar mistakes. Remember he was a TA No,

508
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: we do ntsizing.

509
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 15: Yep.

510
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 16: What if there's something that will stay with him for

511
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 16: the rest of his life, it will be Olivia's allocution

512
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 16: statement to him or victim impact statement on behalf of

513
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 16: her sister. I've done this job for a long time.

514
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 16: We can go back to the beginnings of criminals. Criminals

515
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 16: are morons. This guy was a nobody who wanted to

516
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 16: be special, and he's a nobody, loser, moron, and she

517
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 16: called him on that and now all the other stuff.

518
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 16: I think your experts are right. He liked to see

519
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,760
Speaker 16: the family struggle, and you know I caused all this,

520
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 16: but that all stopped in his head when Olivia and

521
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 16: the judge said something important too.

522
00:33:58,320 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 15: He called him incompetent.

523
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 16: When you attack a moron and call him for what

524
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 16: he is is what the sister did to him, she

525
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,800
Speaker 16: can for what is. There is no closure in these cases.

526
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 16: The trauma is too deep. My dad used to say,

527
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 16: a parent who loses a child is only waiting to die,

528
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 16: and so there is no closure. But knowing the criminal

529
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 16: mind and knowing that this is born of stupidity, This

530
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 16: is born of a loser, a weak person, a lazy person.

531
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 16: That sister's statement, he will roll that over. And what

532
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 16: he's going to do is he's going to think to himself,

533
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 16: I'll show you. But he'll never be able to, so

534
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 16: he will live in misery.

535
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 15: Let alone.

536
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,760
Speaker 16: It's not three hots in the cop Our prison systems

537
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 16: in America are difficult. Food is industrial level, so he

538
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 16: will have a horrible experience.

539
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 15: Every day will be how do I stop.

540
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: Actually say that doesn't care to have food that you

541
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,240
Speaker 1: whit need. He's not getting his private chef to no, no.

542
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:59,720
Speaker 16: No, no, no, what you're not understanding, Nancy, in society were people,

543
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 16: it's not. He will have a miserable existence and Olivia's

544
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 16: statements will ring in his head because he is going

545
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 16: to want to show where he's somebody, but he's a nobody.

546
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 16: And she called him on it and brought vo to

547
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 16: her for having the courage to do that.

548
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: You know what, Mores, It just hit me in all

549
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: the years that I prosecuted felony cases, and I would

550
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,839
Speaker 1: be in a closing argument and I would talk about

551
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: all the mistakes the defendant made and how he got caught,

552
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 1: Like it could be a fingerprint, It could be driving

553
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: under a street lamp and somebody getting the tag id.

554
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 1: It could be loose lips that sink ships where they

555
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: said something that only the killer would know, that kind

556
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: of thing. And there were a couple of times, and

557
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: this was rare for me. Is you can only imagine

558
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 1: that I would break a smile because such an idiot.

559
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: Those were the only times when you would kind of

560
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: get a laugh off the defendant house stupid and competently

561
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,240
Speaker 1: were that you would get a rise out of the defendant.

562
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: That would make them matt no remorse, no shame. But

563
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: when it's pointed out to them, hey, you screwed up

564
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: a hole. That's how you got caught. That's the only

565
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,919
Speaker 1: way you'd get a rise out of them. And when

566
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: Olivi Gosolvus was talking about you think you're so smart,

567
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: you think you're brilliant, Look what you.

568
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 15: Did, idiot, Well that's what it.

569
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: Is that will stick with him.

570
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,279
Speaker 16: Morse, So he called him out on his you know,

571
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 16: the way he viewed himself that was phony, not just

572
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 16: you did this wrong or that, which was which was

573
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 16: very impactful also, but also on you know.

574
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 15: We know that you're a nobody.

575
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 16: We know you're a loser who thinks you're special, and

576
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 16: that's why you did this, but everybody knows you're not.

577
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 16: And very to have the courage to be that articulate

578
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 16: in such a unimaginable for anyone who hasn't experienced, I

579
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 16: can't imagine. Even though I've sat in courtrooms and listened

580
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 16: to this, I still no one can imagine what it's

581
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 16: like unless you go through it. And also just to

582
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 16: point out that was very smart. The prosecutor for the

583
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 16: family to get the appellate waiver. We do that a

584
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 16: lot in federal cases, at least in Florida. We don't

585
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,280
Speaker 16: do that much in state cases when there's a play,

586
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,399
Speaker 16: which most cases resolve by. But yes, you're right, there

587
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 16: are very now narrow circumstances. He can appeal a habeas

588
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 16: petition and ineffective counsel. Those petitions usually go nowhere fast.

589
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 16: So that was a good thing for the family that

590
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 16: maybe they don't realize now, But every time there's something

591
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 16: in the paper about the initial brief was filed and

592
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 16: now there's an appeal going to be heard, that overwhelms

593
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 16: the family and feels like there's no this is going

594
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:43,800
Speaker 16: to open up again.

595
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: I bet they feel a lot better when that firing

596
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 1: squad goes down. No more now speaking yet, Well, that's

597
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: you talking, that's not them talking. Living and solve us

598
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: didn't stop there.

599
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 7: You thought you were exceptional all because of a grade

600
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 7: on a paper. You thought you were elite because your

601
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 7: online IQ test from twenty ten told you so, all

602
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 7: of that effort just to seem important.

603
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 14: It's desperate.

604
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 7: There is a name for your condition, though, your inflated

605
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 7: ego just didn't allow you to see it.

606
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 6: Wanna be.

607
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 7: You act like no one could ever understand your mind.

608
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 7: But the truth is you're basic. You're a text bookcase

609
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 7: of insecurity disguised as control. Your patterns are predictable, your

610
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 7: motives are shallow. You are not profound. You're pathetic. You

611
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 7: aren't special or deep, not mysterious or exceptional. Don't ever

612
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 7: get it twisted again. No one is scared of you today.

613
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 7: No one is intimidated by you, no one is impressed

614
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 7: by you. No one thinks that you are important. You

615
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 7: orchestrated this like you thought you were God. Now look

616
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 7: at you, begging a courtroom for scraps. You spent months preparing,

617
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 7: and still all it took was my sister and a sheath.

618
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 7: You work so hard to see them dangerous, but real

619
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 7: control doesn't have to prove itself.

620
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: I just want to stand up and cheer right now.

621
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: I want to cheer this woman. And I know I've

622
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: got other victim impact statements for you to hear. I

623
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: just want to give you one more little bit of

624
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: this girl. I'm telling you Olivia Gonsolves. And if this

625
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: is any tiny example, a tiny example of what her

626
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 1: sister killer, gonslves was like I'm in She would have

627
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: set the world on fire.

628
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 7: Listen, the truth is the scariest part about you. It's

629
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 7: how painfully average you turned out to be. The truth

630
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 7: is as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.

631
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 7: Let me be very clear, don't ever try to convince

632
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 7: yourself you mattered just because someone finally said your name

633
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 7: out loud. You thought I see through you. You want

634
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 7: the truth, Here's the one you'll hate the most. If

635
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 7: you hadn't attacked them in their sleep in the middle

636
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 7: of the night like a pedophile, Kaylie would have kicked

637
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 7: your fucking ass.

638
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 14: Thank you, thank you.

639
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 7: I don't know a location.

640
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 6: I don't know what.

641
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: She's not working up. My man in the house was

642
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: life plus Live, plus Live plus live run consecutively. That's

643
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,720
Speaker 1: what coburger got today. Many people thought that a jury

644
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 1: should at least be given the choice of the death penalty.

645
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: That did not happen, over the objections of about half

646
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: the victims' families. Joscott Morgan, I want you and the

647
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: rest of our panel to listen to what Olivia Gonsova said.

648
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: She says, just because you took an online IQ test.

649
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 1: You think you're brilliant, man, Okay, that that hurt. You're

650
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 1: a wanna be and you're just basic. You're basic, you know,

651
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: like a car that doesn't have any upgrades on it.

652
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: It's just like plastic on wheels, That's what she's saying.

653
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 1: And all this time Coburger thought he was so subed.

654
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, he did. He thought he was a legend in

655
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 4: his own mind. And you know, you can see that

656
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 4: that's demonstrated in academia, Nancy. This idea that he went

657
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 4: to WSU and he you know, first off, he treats

658
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 4: all of his students, those that he's a TA for

659
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 4: like garbage, particularly the women. I think that's kind of

660
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 4: significant in this case. And then those that are in

661
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 4: a position of authority over him, Nancy, he's only one

662
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 4: he's only one semester into a doctoral program. Let's face it.

663
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 4: In that position, you're lower than pond'scum at that point

664
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 4: in time, you have no voice in that environment. You're

665
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,439
Speaker 4: there to work and do what you're told to do.

666
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 4: And I don't think that it would balance out in

667
00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 4: his mind. I think that for a long time he

668
00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 4: thought that he was the smartest person in the room,

669
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 4: and he failed miserably. I love the fact that she

670
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,200
Speaker 4: uses term basic that he thought that he was some

671
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 4: kind of superstar.

672
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 15: I don't know.

673
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 4: For how long now, I've had people that have approached

674
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 4: me that have said, oh, well, you know, he took

675
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 4: these classes in college and he was exposed to this

676
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 4: and that. But you know what, I watched NASCAR on

677
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 4: Sunday afternoon. Doesn't make me a damn Nascar driver, you know.

678
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 4: And that's about the extent of it. He has no

679
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 4: experience in forensics whatsoever. And yeah, he was able to

680
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 4: clean up after himself, but in the end, the science

681
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 4: got him. He's not that bright, you know.

682
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: Doctor Dwayne Hendrix is with us. He is former Associate

683
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 1: Warden MDC Brooklyn, former Senior warden with the US Department

684
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,840
Speaker 1: of Justice with the Federal Bureau of Prisons. He founded

685
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: the New Daylight Foundation. He's the author of who Are

686
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 1: You See It? Say It Sees It? Doctor Hendrix, you've

687
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: seen it all, as have many of us on the panel.

688
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: Why do defendants think they know everything? And then they're

689
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: so angry when somebody says you took an online IQ test?

690
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: Get over it?

691
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 12: Well, Nancy. He appears and I'm not a psychologist by profession,

692
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 12: but I think he's a sociopath. And for some reason,

693
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 12: I agree what Professor Scott talked about, you know, thinking,

694
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 12: you know, some of the thoughts about him, you know,

695
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 12: being the smartest person in the room, thought he controlled everything.

696
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 12: And now he's been exposed for what he truly is

697
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 12: by the fact that he didn't say anything today at.

698
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 15: The Cenising hearing.

699
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 12: He didn't apologize, he didn't take any responsibility for his actions.

700
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 1: And I'm projects, did you not hear me talking about

701
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 1: the pet lizard that just goes we need to talk

702
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: to it. That's coburger. What do you think he's going

703
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: to say, I'm sorry I did.

704
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 12: No, No, I didn't think that. But but I have

705
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 12: a concerned about where if he's going to have I

706
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 12: don't know if he's had a cell has a cell

707
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 12: mate just yet, but I think the fact that he

708
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,799
Speaker 12: probably does want to be more famous, he does want

709
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 12: to continue this conversation, I'm very concerned that he'll probably

710
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 12: reoffend again, especially if they don't get a hold of

711
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 12: his whatever his mental issues are. And I'm not sure

712
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 12: where they're gonna house him once he gets to that

713
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 12: maximum security prison.

714
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's a medical diagnosis for this.

715
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: I think he's just a straight up ahole.

716
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,040
Speaker 12: I would agree with that, And I do believe that

717
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 12: he's going to reoffend again because I think he wants

718
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 12: to keep his name in the papers, his name in

719
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 12: the light. And depending on where they house him and

720
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,640
Speaker 12: who they house him with, is going to determine whether

721
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 12: he is either going to reoffend or if he's going

722
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 12: to be harmed in some way. He may end up

723
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,439
Speaker 12: being a victim of homicide himself there in the state

724
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 12: of Idaho.

725
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: Oh Hendrix, Hendrix, Hendrix, my poor naive doctor, Dwayne Hendrix.

726
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: How many times do we hear people say there'll be

727
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: prison justice. When is their prison justice? I've known of.

728
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 1: I can count on one hand the number of times

729
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: a killer has been killed behind bars because of what

730
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: he did. There was one Catholic priest who was killed

731
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,320
Speaker 1: because one of his molested victims happened to be in

732
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: that facility and killed him. There aren't that many cases

733
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,919
Speaker 1: of prison justice. There's a lot of fights, and there's

734
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: a lot of murders, but not in the name of

735
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: prison justice. So can we just put that myth to

736
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:13,280
Speaker 1: bad Hendrix.

737
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 4: No, I won't.

738
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 12: I respect your opinion, Nancy, but but this is who

739
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 12: he is because remember I always say, there's two things

740
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 12: you don't want to be in prison, one informant, one

741
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 12: as a sex offender. But the third is the category

742
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,800
Speaker 12: he fits himself in. Inmates don't like inmates who harmed women.

743
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 12: And he killed three women.

744
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:37,320
Speaker 1: Since you know that, doctor Hendricks, name me three people,

745
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: just three, we'll just start with three and that have

746
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: been murdered behind bars to get back at them for

747
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: what they did.

748
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 12: Said, what was the Jeffrey Dahmer. I believe that was one.

749
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 12: I can't name the other two.

750
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: Yep, that's one that was on my list.

751
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, Jeffrey Dahmer. I don't have the other two, but

752
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 12: I guarantee you.

753
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:03,399
Speaker 1: The other two. But guy was on my list. Okay, yeah, right, Yeah,

754
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 1: they're out there, but I don't know their names. You

755
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: sound like one of the defendants that get on the

756
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: stand under my cross examination and try to blame somebody else.

757
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, what's their name? I don't know what

758
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 1: they look like. I don't know because they're not any

759
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: there's not any you got father John Gogan, he was

760
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: sixty eight. He was convicted of child molestation and he

761
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: was murdered behind bars by Joseph Druce out of rage

762
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 1: at what the father had done. And the assailant was

763
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: a victim of child molestation. So that's two two in

764
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: history that we can think of. So don't count on

765
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: prison justice. We should meet out justice, the court should

766
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: meet out justice. We shouldn't rely on inmates to meet

767
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:59,719
Speaker 1: out justice. Okay, that's too Hendrix. I'm going to give

768
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: you a time out while you can google and find

769
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 1: out if there's anybody else. In the meantime, you've heard

770
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: sister gunsolves Olivia. Now take a listen to mother and gounsovs.

771
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: I love this woman.

772
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 10: You are entering a place where no one will care

773
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 10: who you are and no one will ever respect you.

774
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: You will be.

775
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 10: Forgotten, discarded, used and erased. You will always be remembered

776
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 10: as a loser, an absolute failure. And when those prison

777
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 10: doors slams shut behind you, I hope that sound echoes

778
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 10: in your heart for the rest of your meaningless days.

779
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 10: I hope it reminds you of what we all already know.

780
00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 10: You're nothing. May you continue to live your life in misery.

781
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 10: You are officially the property of the state of Idaho,

782
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 10: where your fellow inmates are anxiously awaiting your arrival. But

783
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 10: it's okay because they're there to help you.

784
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 1: And she didn't leave it there. She sent Coburger a

785
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: message from her youngest daughter.

786
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,680
Speaker 10: Listen quick message from our youngest daughter, Aubrey wanted to

787
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:15,600
Speaker 10: see you may have received a's in high school and college,

788
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 10: but you're going to be getting big d's in prison.

789
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 2: Thank you.

790
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 1: Joining me is Susan Hendrix, who has been in the

791
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 1: courtroom throughout covering this. Today you heard the mom of

792
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:40,240
Speaker 1: Killi Gorinsavas speak. She sends a message from the little

793
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: sister Aubrey, and Aubrey says Coburger, you may have received

794
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: a's in high school and college, but you're going to

795
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 1: be getting big d's in prison. Yeah, okay, you don't

796
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 1: have to spell that out for me. What was the

797
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: reaction in the courtroom to that, speaking of prison justice.

798
00:49:57,480 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 6: I was kind of looking around and there were, of

799
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 6: course offices.

800
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 5: In there, and there was kind of a truckle and

801
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 5: take it aback and then applause. If there was a

802
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 5: masterclass on how to get to a psychopathic sociopath.

803
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 6: It was a consolvist family.

804
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 5: It's the only time in court because I could directly

805
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,319
Speaker 5: see kind of his jawline only about twenty feet from

806
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 5: Cobra or thirty feet that he clenched it when she

807
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 5: talked about how he treased his students and how he's

808
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 5: nothing in a paraphrasing here, it got to him and

809
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 5: I saw it.

810
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: Guys, we also heard from Xana Kernodle's sister Jasmine, listen.

811
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 17: Because the truth is, you don't deserve power over my feelings,

812
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 17: in my words or me. In the end, I realized

813
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 17: this woman isn't about you. It's about justice for Xanna, Ethan, Kaylee,

814
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 17: and Maddie. It's about honoring the beautiful, beautiful people they

815
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 17: were and still are in God's eyes. Xanna didn't get

816
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 17: the future she deserved.

817
00:50:59,000 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 1: She won't be the.

818
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 17: Maid of owning the cool on to my future children.

819
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 17: I'll never hear her laugh or see her light upper

820
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 17: room over again, but I will carry her with me

821
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 17: for the rest of my life. I will live in

822
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 17: her honor, fight to be the best kind of woman

823
00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 17: and someone she's proud of, to make sure the world

824
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 17: never forgets who she was.

825
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: That was so poignant, Cheryl McCollum. When the sister is

826
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 1: describing how Xanna will never be her maid of honor,

827
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: I mean, and it makes you think, it evokes all

828
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: the future events that will never.

829
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 8: Happen, when she describes the future events that are never

830
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 8: going to happen again. The families live with this loss

831
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,279
Speaker 8: every single day, and some of those events are going

832
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,160
Speaker 8: to be so powerful when she does get married and

833
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 8: her sister there, when she has her children and her

834
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 8: sister's not there. But you know, just those general days,

835
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 8: just an average Wednesday, that you can't call and talk

836
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 8: about something funny that happened, or call and say I

837
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 8: felt the baby, or you know, I picked out flowers,

838
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 8: whatever it is. Those are such powerful moments that will

839
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 8: be tarnished.

840
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 1: You know, Cheryl, you just gave me a flashback when

841
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: I found out I was gonna have the twins, right,

842
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: I was sent to Virginia Tech, remember the shooting at

843
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: Virginia Tech, And I didn't have anybody to tell. I

844
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 1: got out of the car, pulled over to the side

845
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: of the interstate and call my sister in California. And

846
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 1: I was standing on the side of the interstate and

847
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: that's who I had to tell and that will never happen.

848
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 1: That will never happen for Jasmine. And we also heard

849
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 1: from Xana's stepfather Randy, and you could tell he has

850
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: been through hell.

851
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,719
Speaker 3: You man, I don't know what my limits are here,

852
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 3: but I'm really struggling, dude, I am struggling, so I

853
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 3: want to I want to just be out in the

854
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 3: woods with you, just so I can teach you about

855
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 3: loss and pain. I'm not I belive.

856
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 15: I love God.

857
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 3: I wouldn't take your life. That's up to him, but

858
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 3: I guarantee you you are weak God. I would just

859
00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 3: give a moment, man, five minutes out of the woods.

860
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 3: Oh man, you're gonna go to Hell. I know people

861
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 3: believe in other stuff. You're You're evil. There's no place

862
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 3: for you in heaven. You took our children. You are

863
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 3: gonna suffer.

864
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 2: Man.

865
00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: I'm shaking because I want to reach out to you.

866
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 3: But I just I hope you feel my energy. Okay,

867
00:53:57,840 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 3: go to hell.

868
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: For one moment, I thought he was gonna leave across

869
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 1: that lectern and get coburger by the neck. We also

870
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 1: heard words from Dylan Mortenson. She and Bethany have been

871
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:23,720
Speaker 1: attacked so brutally and oppressed. Since the murders, they're lucky

872
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: to be alive today. Let's know what, Dylan Mortenson relayed.

873
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 11: I was barely nineteen when he did this. We had

874
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 11: just celebrated my birthday at the end of September. I

875
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,240
Speaker 11: should have been figuring out who I was. I should

876
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 11: have been having the cold experience and starting to establish

877
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 11: my future. Instead, I was forced to learn how to

878
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 11: survive the unimaginable. I'm couldn't be alone. I had to

879
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 11: sleep in my mom's bed because I was too terrified

880
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 11: to close my eyes, Terrified that if I blinked, someone

881
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 11: might be there. I made escape plans everywhere I went.

882
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 11: If something happens, how do I get out? What can

883
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 11: I use to defend myself? Who can help? Then there

884
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 11: are the panic attacks. The guy that slam into me

885
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:26,080
Speaker 11: like a tsunami out of nowhere. I can't breathe, I

886
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:27,239
Speaker 11: can't think.

887
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:35,840
Speaker 18: I can't stop shaking. All I can do is scream.

888
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 1: It just is like a stab to hear Dylan Mortonson

889
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 1: describing what she's still living through the panic attacks where

890
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: she can't breathe, she said, it feels like a tsunami

891
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 1: wave hitting her she can't stop shaking. All she can

892
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 1: do is scream it's real, There's nothing wrong with her,

893
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,719
Speaker 1: this is normal. This is trauma that she may never

894
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:03,240
Speaker 1: get over. Listen to more of Dylan Morton's.

895
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 11: People call me strong, they say I'm a survivor, but

896
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 11: they don't see what my new reality looks like.

897
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 18: They don't see the.

898
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 11: Panic attacks, the hypervigilance, the exhaustion, the way I scan

899
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 11: every room I enter, the way I flinch, it sudden sounds.

900
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,960
Speaker 11: They don't know how heavy it is to carry so

901
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 11: much pain and still be expected to keep going.

902
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 18: And that's because of him. He still boards on me.

903
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 18: I may never get back.

904
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 11: He took the version of me who didn't go instantly

905
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 11: ask what if that happens again? What if next time?

906
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 11: I don't survive?

907
00:56:44,480 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: Susan Henry's joining us from the courthouse. Susan explain to

908
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:53,319
Speaker 1: everyone how she came across as she was giving her

909
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 1: impact statement. Oh that was.

910
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 5: Heart wrenching, it was she her heart was bleeding. She

911
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 5: was being honest about her life has been torture ever since.

912
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 5: She thinks, when will I be next? Look what you

913
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 5: took from me? These were my friends and this was

914
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,919
Speaker 5: the only time I looked over Brian Koberger's mother was there,

915
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 5: no sign of his father. Two sisters, they were wiping tears.

916
00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 5: They connected with her. They felt that and I saw it.

917
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 5: But I feel for her. You could tell that it

918
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 5: took everything, but she had to be there. She had

919
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 5: to read that statement and just saying how it's People

920
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 5: expect me to go on and I don't know how to.

921
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:33,480
Speaker 1: You know, doctor Chavon Scott, he's joining us renowned psychotherapist's

922
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:38,160
Speaker 1: best selling author, doctor Chevon. It's hard for people that

923
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: haven't lived through it, and people shouldn't understand it. I

924
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: don't want them to have to understand it, but this

925
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: is real. I've seen victims literally shaking all over when

926
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: they had to take the witness stand and recount what

927
00:57:54,440 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 1: happened to them, what they lived through. It's brutal and

928
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 1: for the rest of your life, anything can trigger it.

929
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 13: Yeah, we're really talking about severe, severe, post traumatic stress.

930
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 1: And that changes the brain.

931
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 13: I've lived through it and I completely get it.

932
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: The brain can just break.

933
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 13: We can be emotionally shattered, and we're never the same

934
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,959
Speaker 13: people we would have been if we hadn't have gone

935
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 13: through something like that, and in treatment. We certainly work

936
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 13: with survivors. We do our best to try to help

937
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 13: them come to some degree of healing, but the world

938
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 13: is never safe for them again, and they're never the same,

939
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 13: and they move through it completely differently than they would

940
00:58:45,160 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 13: have if they'd not been through that trauma.

941
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: And I guarantee you, Sharyl McCollum, just her testifying or

942
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 1: speaking in court today, we'll make it all come back.

943
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: And you and I have had to beg witnesses to testify.

944
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,920
Speaker 1: I beg them because they don't want to relive it,

945
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 1: even verbally.

946
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 8: She even said, I'm shaking right now she's having to

947
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 8: face him. But let me say this, this is my

948
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 8: prayer for her. With all the panic attacks and the

949
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 8: escape plans that she puts into place, and her life

950
00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 8: is torture. She faced that devil today and I hope

951
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 8: she understands the power in that.

952
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: Guys, we've all heard the name Dylan Mortenson, but the

953
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 1: other name, the other girl that lived. Finally, she tells

954
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: us what she told police, what happened that night. A

955
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 1: few answers. Listen.

956
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,320
Speaker 19: When I first woke up one morning, I had no

957
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 19: idea what happened. I woke up around seven with a

958
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 19: terrible toothache. So I called my dad, who is a dentist,

959
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 19: and he asked what I should do. He told me

960
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 19: to take Adville, so I did, and I went back

961
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,640
Speaker 19: to sleep. I was still out of it and still

962
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 19: didn't what happened. If I had known, I of course

963
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 19: would have called nine one right away. I still carry

964
01:00:05,720 --> 01:00:08,400
Speaker 19: so much regret and guilt for not knowing what had

965
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 19: happened in not calling right away, even though I understand

966
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 19: it wouldn't have changed anything, not even if the paramedics

967
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:17,120
Speaker 19: had been right outside the door.

968
01:00:18,080 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 1: You know Greg Morris, veteran defense attorney, but today I

969
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: think we're on the same side. For once or now,

970
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: lawyer at Morse Legal and author of the Untested on Amazon,

971
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: Greg that I had no shrink. But I know what that is.

972
01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:37,439
Speaker 1: It's survivor's guilt. And she is explaining why she didn't

973
01:00:37,480 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 1: immediately call nine one one while there were several hours delayed.

974
01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 1: Because she's been attacked so much in the media. People

975
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: have even written online inanely I think she was part

976
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: of it. She was not part of it. She just

977
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 1: explained what happened, and who would have imagined it was

978
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: a toothache.

979
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 16: You know, people that don't experience things have the biggest

980
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:03,760
Speaker 16: mouths that speak from ignorance, and that's all that is.

981
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 16: I hope that she can put that burden down because

982
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 16: the only person responsible for anything that happened that day

983
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,400
Speaker 16: was Brian Kolberger. Not one human in that house had

984
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 16: anything to do with it. They didn't cause it to last.

985
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,560
Speaker 16: And it's unfortunate that she lived. And she has to

986
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 16: live with that too, right, Her friends and the therapists

987
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,400
Speaker 16: and on the panel know this. I mean, she lived,

988
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 16: like you said, survivor's guilt. Her friends are dead, and

989
01:01:29,920 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 16: now people are attacking her for she should have done X?

990
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,360
Speaker 16: How could you not call nine on one? And it's

991
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,360
Speaker 16: you know, I think people it's a natural instinct. They

992
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 16: filter logical rational choices through trauma, and when trauma happens,

993
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 16: logical rational choices don't. Usually that's the whole point, and

994
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 16: that's what's difficult, And it's if you're going to say

995
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 16: anything negative about someone like that, you're just a loser,

996
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 16: plain and simple. And if you're on a computer doing it,

997
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 16: you're like a loser's loser.

998
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,840
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, Morse. Yeah, Now Morris is talking

999
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 1: about survivor's guilt. Everybody on this panel has seen it

1000
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: in the courtroom, people that live. But listen to what now.

1001
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,960
Speaker 1: Bethany is having a friend read this for her in court.

1002
01:02:11,000 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: I want you to listen to what she, Bethany relays.

1003
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 19: I still think about this every day.

1004
01:02:15,840 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 15: Why me? Why did I get.

1005
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:22,120
Speaker 19: To live and not them? For the longest time, I

1006
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 19: could not even look at their families without feeling sick

1007
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 19: with guilt. I did not know what to say or

1008
01:02:28,560 --> 01:02:30,920
Speaker 19: what to do. I was terrified that my presence just

1009
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 19: made their pain worse, and I was still here when

1010
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 19: their kid, their siblings, and their friends. Their loved ones

1011
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 19: should have been here instead.

1012
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: Their loved ones should have been here instead, and not me.

1013
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: She's going to carry this with her the rest of

1014
01:02:46,200 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 1: her life while Coburger mates the made for TV movie

1015
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 1: behind Bars listen to her suffering.

1016
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 19: I slept in my parents' room for almost a year.

1017
01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 19: I made them double lock every door, set an alarm,

1018
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 19: check everywhere in the room just in case someone was hiding.

1019
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 19: And I still check my room every night before and

1020
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:09,520
Speaker 19: I double lock it. I have not slept through a

1021
01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 19: single night since this happened. I constantly wake up in panics,

1022
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,960
Speaker 19: terrified someone who's breaking in, or someone is here to

1023
01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 19: hurt me, or I'm about to lose someone else that

1024
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 19: I love.

1025
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum. Final thought.

1026
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 8: I think the courage and grace and dignity that we

1027
01:03:25,720 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 8: saw today with every single person that took the podium

1028
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 8: was unbelievable. But I also have to say one pretty

1029
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 8: gangster move with Ethan's family who didn't show because Brian

1030
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 8: Coberg didn't deserfe it.

1031
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,560
Speaker 1: Greg Morris, you and I have saying countless victim impact statements,

1032
01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,760
Speaker 1: but I've got to say the ones today in that

1033
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 1: Coburger court room, and well, they weren't like anything I've

1034
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: ever seen before. But I still believe this case should

1035
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 1: have gone to a jury trial. I will always say

1036
01:04:01,920 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 1: that because for the rest of their lives, and just

1037
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: admit it. More so, don't fight with me about this.

1038
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 1: You know, the rest of these victims families lives. They're

1039
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 1: going to wonder, They're going to wake up in the

1040
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,400
Speaker 1: middle of the night. They may be driving down the

1041
01:04:16,480 --> 01:04:19,520
Speaker 1: road when it hit some What was the last thing

1042
01:04:19,640 --> 01:04:22,520
Speaker 1: she saw, What was the last thing he felt? Did

1043
01:04:22,600 --> 01:04:24,440
Speaker 1: he think about me before he died?

1044
01:04:25,240 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 17: Well?

1045
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:30,640
Speaker 1: I ever see them again. They'll never have any of

1046
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 1: those answers. Coburger is never going to answer if he

1047
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 1: did say anything, which he didn't, it would be a lie.

1048
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,920
Speaker 1: And the only way they would have found answers is

1049
01:04:39,960 --> 01:04:40,680
Speaker 1: by a trial.

1050
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 16: Well I don't know if they would have found those

1051
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:47,400
Speaker 16: answers though, and the prosecution could have absolutely made that

1052
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 16: a part of the police so there actually was a

1053
01:04:49,200 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 16: measure of control that the prosecution controlled. But a trial

1054
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:57,040
Speaker 16: is not going to, unfortunately, answer a lot of those questions,

1055
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:00,080
Speaker 16: and the death penalty.

1056
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 1: Would all the questions, all the questions about what happened

1057
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: that night, whose room did he enter, who was killed first?

1058
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 1: Did this one hear that one screaming? What did they

1059
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: live through? I still wonder that now, after all these years,

1060
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 1: what did Keith live through? I don't really know what happened?

1061
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's something that it happens the rest

1062
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: of your life.

1063
01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:30,360
Speaker 16: Morse having been in this situation with a client who

1064
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,160
Speaker 16: was a family member blamed for a crime Mom killed

1065
01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 16: dad and blamed the son. Thankfully the son had me

1066
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 16: as a lawyer, and to go through and you know,

1067
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:43,240
Speaker 16: you're the victim of trauma. There is no right answer

1068
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 16: there's nothing that heals that. So you try this, you

1069
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 16: try that, you think this will give relief, but a

1070
01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 16: trial will not one thing.

1071
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:50,520
Speaker 1: I know.

1072
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 16: In sex cases and murder cases, you have to be

1073
01:05:53,840 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 16: very delicate on how you we get depositions in Florida.

1074
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 15: In criminal cases, you have to be.

1075
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 16: Very delicate how you litigate a case when there's a

1076
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 16: victim and those two type things are a victim's family,

1077
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 16: because you will lose any opportunity to do something decent

1078
01:06:07,600 --> 01:06:10,680
Speaker 16: for your client in resolving the case. So a trial

1079
01:06:10,720 --> 01:06:13,080
Speaker 16: will probably only hurt because you're going to get the

1080
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:16,440
Speaker 16: horror with maybe one or two of those answers.

1081
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 1: I've never heard an actual victim state a trial only

1082
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: hurt that Scott Morgan went about it.

1083
01:06:25,200 --> 01:06:28,920
Speaker 4: You know, Nancy, we've been covering this case since it

1084
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 4: happened all this time, and I've got to tell you,

1085
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 4: there's this one these one moments that I never would

1086
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 4: have counted on that are going to be etched into

1087
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 4: my brain. And that's the sound of applause in the courtroom.

1088
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,919
Speaker 4: I never expected it. I know you've handled a lot

1089
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 4: of cases, you've been in court, and I'm sure you've

1090
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 4: heard applause before. But the fact that the judge gave

1091
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 4: them that kind of latitude in there, it kind of,

1092
01:06:55,240 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 4: you know, reinforced these comments that the families are making

1093
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 4: relative to Coburger as he's sitting there and everybody's cheering

1094
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 4: on and it's almost like you could feel, you could

1095
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 4: feel this momentum building along the way. And I know

1096
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 4: that that's very little recompense after everything that has occurred,

1097
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:19,200
Speaker 4: but that one moment, those moments that were captured in there,

1098
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 4: of the gallery of plodding in there, these impact statements,

1099
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 4: it goes to reinforce that all of the people on

1100
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 4: social media that are out there, that they come up

1101
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 4: with these crackpot conspiracy theories, the people in that courtroom

1102
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:38,560
Speaker 4: they're behind these families, They're behind these victims, they support them,

1103
01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 4: and I think that that's what should be remembered.

1104
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: Here as we close tonight. I know that there will

1105
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 1: never be peace, There will never be peace or closure

1106
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 1: for these victims' families, but I do pray for them

1107
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:04,920
Speaker 1: with the knowledge that the victims are now resting in peace.

1108
01:08:07,200 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 1: Good Night, friend,