WEBVTT - Not Your Everyday P.I.

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<v Speaker 1>This is on the Job, a podcast about finding your

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<v Speaker 1>life's work. On the job, is brought to you by

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<v Speaker 1>Express Employment Professionals. This season, we're bringing you stories of

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<v Speaker 1>folks following their passion to carve their own career path.

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<v Speaker 1>For this episode, we look at a pretty non traditional

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<v Speaker 1>career path, being a private investigator. It's a complicated line

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<v Speaker 1>of work that comes with a lot of assumptions being

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<v Speaker 1>made about it and maybe something a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>don't feel like they're cut out foreign paper. But sometimes

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<v Speaker 1>doing a job is less about your hard qualifications and

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<v Speaker 1>more about the bigger ideas that drive you. Now that

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<v Speaker 1>you know that we're talking to a real p I today,

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<v Speaker 1>you probably have some idea in your head of what

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<v Speaker 1>that means. So let's get that out of the way. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>So what do people say to you when they hear

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<v Speaker 1>you're a p I. The first thing is that everyone goes, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>that must be exciting. Well, I've been doing this for

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<v Speaker 1>almost a half a century, and I don't think exciting

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<v Speaker 1>is the word that I would use anymore. Maybe at

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<v Speaker 1>one time, but not anymore. This is Kitty Kitty Haley.

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<v Speaker 1>I am a professional investigator, sometimes called a p I

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<v Speaker 1>or a private investigator, and I am old enough to

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<v Speaker 1>know better. Kitty works and lives in Philadelphia. She's got

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<v Speaker 1>fiery red hair, she's put together, kind of looks like

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<v Speaker 1>she might be a kindergarten teacher. You wouldn't look at

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<v Speaker 1>her and think she's a p I, which is also

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<v Speaker 1>what people say to her when they find out what

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<v Speaker 1>she does. And then they start to tell me how

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<v Speaker 1>they would be a good investigator. And they tell me

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<v Speaker 1>either how they located their long lost second cousin or

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<v Speaker 1>they found their husband cheating, and they watch all the

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<v Speaker 1>cops shows on TV. The thing is, Kitty is pretty

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<v Speaker 1>much the opposite of what you'd see on a cop show.

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<v Speaker 1>She's been an investigator in many forms, but currently most

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<v Speaker 1>of what she does is investigate the police in cases

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<v Speaker 1>where someone is wrongfully convicted or an officer abuses their authority.

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<v Speaker 1>So no, I'm not a police investigator. All right. So

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<v Speaker 1>you've done a lot of different things in your career,

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<v Speaker 1>but boiled down, what is it that you do. I

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<v Speaker 1>gather information, period, That's what I do. I don't censor it,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't editorialize it. I am a fact finder. However,

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<v Speaker 1>the facts that I find are about some very interesting

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<v Speaker 1>and unusual situations. Right now, Kitty is a criminal investigator,

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<v Speaker 1>but for a while she was what was called a

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<v Speaker 1>full service investigator, which means she did a little bit

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<v Speaker 1>of everything, domestic people, cheating, um, locating missing people. Now

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<v Speaker 1>she does civil rights work, investigating cases similar to George

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<v Speaker 1>Floyd's where there's been an incident with the police. My

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<v Speaker 1>other clients are incarcerated and they may not be guilty.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's an interesting mixture of work, but primarily I

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<v Speaker 1>do civil rights and post conviction work. Well, I was

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<v Speaker 1>asking Kitty questions. I was surprised by how much goes

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<v Speaker 1>into being a p I that you'd never know without

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<v Speaker 1>talking to one. But some of the time, just like

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<v Speaker 1>on TV, Katy ends up in a courtroom in front

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<v Speaker 1>of a jury, presenting the facts and making her case.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you like picking a courtroom? Love it? It's the

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<v Speaker 1>best time because I think we're all different people at

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<v Speaker 1>different times. I'm not pretending, but I am performing. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>performing the Kitty Hailey who is the investigator? I mean

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<v Speaker 1>sometimes on my Grandma and you know, I sit on

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<v Speaker 1>the floor with a couple of grandkids and I play

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<v Speaker 1>games and I made them cookies and do all the

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<v Speaker 1>things that grandma's do, But when I'm in a courtroom,

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<v Speaker 1>I have control. Long before she was dominating courtrooms and

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<v Speaker 1>swaying juries, young Kitty Haley grew up a pretty straight laced,

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<v Speaker 1>brainy kid. I was a young geek. I read a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of books. I mean, Nancy Drew was my best

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<v Speaker 1>friend for the longest time, so maybe that was part

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<v Speaker 1>of it. I don't know. She had a brother and

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<v Speaker 1>a sister. They were a tight family unit, had dinner

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<v Speaker 1>every night with mom and Dad were Jewish, so we

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<v Speaker 1>went to synagogue every Friday night together. I don't think

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<v Speaker 1>any of us ever got in trouble once in our

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<v Speaker 1>entire lives. Even so, growing up in a non Jewish neighborhood,

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<v Speaker 1>she saw a lot of prejudice against her family. There

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<v Speaker 1>were places she couldn't go, things she couldn't do. So

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<v Speaker 1>I knew what it was like to be an outcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I knew what it was like to have an equity.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think if I had not been an investigator,

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<v Speaker 1>I probably would have end up in some sort of

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<v Speaker 1>social work at some point in time, because the inequities

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<v Speaker 1>of the world are so great and I can't stand

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<v Speaker 1>a look at them. I need to be a part

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<v Speaker 1>of the solution, not accorded the problem. In high school,

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<v Speaker 1>she was great at art, so she went to school

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<v Speaker 1>for it, and afterwards she got a job teaching art

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<v Speaker 1>at a high school in Camden, New Jersey. It was

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<v Speaker 1>a predominantly black school during the Civil Rights movement, and

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<v Speaker 1>Kitty was asked to leave the school system after being

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<v Speaker 1>blamed for causing an uprising against the school system. I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't I didn't stop it. Apparently, she just helped the

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<v Speaker 1>students with their manifesto. Yeah, I think that was my problem.

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<v Speaker 1>I put the help them to put them anifescially together.

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<v Speaker 1>And the problem was that I did during school time,

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<v Speaker 1>during on school copying machines. So yeah, I shouldn't have

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<v Speaker 1>done that maybe. Unsurprisingly, this is when she had encountered

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<v Speaker 1>with a police captain who ended up becoming her husband.

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<v Speaker 1>He was branching off from the force to start his

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<v Speaker 1>own p I firm, and she started to help out

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<v Speaker 1>while she got another teaching job at Rutgers and I

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<v Speaker 1>worked as a teacher counselor for a couple of years,

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<v Speaker 1>doing investigative work part time, and then eventually just transitioned

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<v Speaker 1>over because it's what I really wanted to do. So

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<v Speaker 1>that's only four years old. Kitty Haley was a p I,

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<v Speaker 1>but it definitely wasn't glamorous, you know, we were we

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<v Speaker 1>have a small agency initially, and it was really it

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<v Speaker 1>was really difficult because it was just my husband enough.

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<v Speaker 1>They took whatever work they could get, which was mostly

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<v Speaker 1>domestic work. People cheating, abuse cases, custody issues, families stealing

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<v Speaker 1>from each other, messy stuff. My kids went to college

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<v Speaker 1>because I did domestic work. I mean, God was cheating people.

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<v Speaker 1>It was wonderful. Infidelity pays the bills. Yeah, absolutely, the

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<v Speaker 1>stereotypical stuff people think of when you're a p I,

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<v Speaker 1>sneaking around, following people, looking in their windows to see

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<v Speaker 1>when the light goes on or off. Yeah, I've done

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<v Speaker 1>all that stuff. I sat on surveillance for days and

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<v Speaker 1>nights and weeks and um I used to bring my

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<v Speaker 1>kids on surveillance when they were little. Sometimes they'd be

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<v Speaker 1>so busy that her husband would be working right through

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<v Speaker 1>bedtime when Kitty had to go do her surveillance work.

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<v Speaker 1>So she threw the kids in the back of the

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<v Speaker 1>car with a blanket and I go out. We can

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<v Speaker 1>all stood on surveillance together. I read the books. I

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<v Speaker 1>tell them stories as we were driving, you know, hook

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<v Speaker 1>them in with seatbelts and give them things to play with,

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<v Speaker 1>and every once in a while I go, Okay, guys,

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<v Speaker 1>hang on, mom's gotta go. You did what we had

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<v Speaker 1>to do. We'll get back to our story in a second. First,

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<v Speaker 1>a word from Express Employment Professionals. A strong work ethic

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<v Speaker 1>takes pride in a job well done. This is you.

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<v Speaker 1>But to get an honest day's work, you need a callback.

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<v Speaker 1>You need a job. Express Employment Professionals can help. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>connect you to the right company. We're committed to your

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<v Speaker 1>success and never charge a fee to find you a job.

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<v Speaker 1>Express Nose Jobs. Get to know Express find your location

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<v Speaker 1>at express pros dot com or on the Express Jobs app.

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<v Speaker 1>Now back to on the job. Despite the dick life

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<v Speaker 1>of starting a p I firm, Kitty was hooked. I

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<v Speaker 1>loved the excitement, the adventure, and it was creative in

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<v Speaker 1>its own way. Also, having a background in art made

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<v Speaker 1>me capable of observing things that other people didn't see.

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<v Speaker 1>She picked up on details. She could recreate rooms that

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<v Speaker 1>she was invited into during theft investigations, and a client

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<v Speaker 1>might be able to point out the thing that they

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<v Speaker 1>said was stolen from them. This is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>many skills that's helped Kitty stay in the game as

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<v Speaker 1>long as she has. What makes someone good at what

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<v Speaker 1>you do? Wow, I always tell people who are interested

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<v Speaker 1>in my field, they have to be able to do

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<v Speaker 1>several things really well. They have to be able to think.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to be able to think and analyze. You

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<v Speaker 1>have to be able to observe and put your own

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<v Speaker 1>personal prejudices out of the way while you're observing what

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<v Speaker 1>happened or what the evidences. She says, you also have

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<v Speaker 1>to know a lot about the law and how the

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<v Speaker 1>court system works, so that you know what constitutes evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>Evidence is really important because everything you do has to

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<v Speaker 1>be admissible in a court of law, or you can't

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<v Speaker 1>do it. One of the most overlook skills, she says,

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<v Speaker 1>writing You've got to be able to put together a

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<v Speaker 1>good report. If you can't write what you did to

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<v Speaker 1>explain it to an attorney, then you might as well

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<v Speaker 1>never have done the work. Basically, you might do seventy

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<v Speaker 1>hours worth of surveillance and finding information, computer research and

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<v Speaker 1>interviewing people, and all you can give to an attorney

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<v Speaker 1>is a five page report. So it's like a master

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<v Speaker 1>class in essay writing. Sounds like there's a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>skills they don't tell you about on law and order

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<v Speaker 1>s Vu. Yes, so you have to be able to

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<v Speaker 1>deal with people, communicate well, and know how to build

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<v Speaker 1>so that you can keep your job. That's the whole thing.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a business. People forget that. They think this is oh,

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<v Speaker 1>this is great, but you're if you're working for yourself,

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<v Speaker 1>you've got to do all of that or good work

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<v Speaker 1>for somebody else, which you can do. Kitty says. There

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<v Speaker 1>are so many respects of the work. You can always

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<v Speaker 1>try it all out and figure out what you'd like

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<v Speaker 1>to specialize in. Especially in the age of social media.

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<v Speaker 1>You could be a techie, you could work online investigations.

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<v Speaker 1>There's a ton of different ways to go about it.

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<v Speaker 1>That's not what I'd like to do. It's not my

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<v Speaker 1>comfort zone. Put me in front of somebody and I

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<v Speaker 1>will interview them until I get every list bit of

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<v Speaker 1>information out of them, and that I do well, Kitty says.

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<v Speaker 1>In the beginning, she was saying yes to any job

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<v Speaker 1>that came her way. She had to. That can get

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<v Speaker 1>you in trouble. There was a nice couple who came

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<v Speaker 1>to see us. They had just come from a funeral, actually,

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<v Speaker 1>and so they were well dressed, and she wanted us

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<v Speaker 1>to find her missing children. The woman's ex husband had

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<v Speaker 1>taken the kids. It's not uncommon in these cases, so

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<v Speaker 1>Katie got involved, only to later find out that without

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<v Speaker 1>their nice clothing, they were members of the Hell's Angels

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<v Speaker 1>who were involved in a dispute with a rival gang.

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<v Speaker 1>We were right in the middle of it, and I

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<v Speaker 1>was stupid. I didn't know anything about this. It was

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<v Speaker 1>my first introduction to anything criminal. I only learned about

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<v Speaker 1>it when I left their house and four big black

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<v Speaker 1>SUVs pulled me off to the side of the road

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<v Speaker 1>and four people identify themselves as the FBI and wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to know what I was doing in the house. That

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<v Speaker 1>was not something that a twenty four year old should

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<v Speaker 1>have to go through. It was scary. Do they make

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<v Speaker 1>you second guess? Oh my god, like, what am I doing? No,

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<v Speaker 1>it may be learned to be more careful about who

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<v Speaker 1>my clients are, at least to know what was really

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<v Speaker 1>expected of me. Because my clients right now, some of

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<v Speaker 1>them are guilty as hell. You know, some of them

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<v Speaker 1>are innocent, but you don't know until you investigate it,

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<v Speaker 1>so I need to. I've learned to investigate my clients

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<v Speaker 1>as well as to investigate what they want me to investigate.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you ever do jobs for people that you kind

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<v Speaker 1>of don't feel comfortable doing. Yeah, but I'm not them.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm still doing my job. So take any case where

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<v Speaker 1>there's a prosecutor and a defendant. Whether she's hired by

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<v Speaker 1>the defense or the prosecution, her job doesn't change. So

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<v Speaker 1>if there was a bullet, we're going to find a bullet.

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<v Speaker 1>If you have a witness who says she saw X,

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<v Speaker 1>Y and Z, both investigators going to find X, Y

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<v Speaker 1>and Z. The prosecution investigator and the defense investigator part

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<v Speaker 1>both going to find the same information because the facts

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<v Speaker 1>don't change. I'm not supporting a person, I'm finding out facts. Still,

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<v Speaker 1>she knows that what she does has a huge impact

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<v Speaker 1>on people's lives. When I ask if she's okay with that,

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<v Speaker 1>she tells me about a case where a guy called

0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.440
<v Speaker 1>Kitty saying he suspected his wife was cheating on him

0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:55.360
<v Speaker 1>every day when he went to work. He wanted her

0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 1>to find out. It turns out his wife was with

0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:01.199
<v Speaker 1>the neighbor next door. Kitty had the evidence and testified

0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.440
<v Speaker 1>in their court hearing. The following morning, I'm in my

0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.720
<v Speaker 1>office and I get a phone call and it's the

0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.240
<v Speaker 1>woman who I testified against, and she says to me,

0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:15.240
<v Speaker 1>how can you sleep with yourself doing the ugly work

0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.560
<v Speaker 1>that you do, spying on people peering in windows? How

0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.240
<v Speaker 1>do you sleep with yourself? And I remember saying to her,

0:13:24.600 --> 0:13:28.080
<v Speaker 1>I don't. I don't sleep with myself. I speak with

0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.080
<v Speaker 1>my husband. You, on the out of hand, sleep with

0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:37.160
<v Speaker 1>somebody else's, says them. So no, I'm not the people

0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm working for or against. I'm still me with my

0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.080
<v Speaker 1>own ethics and my own morals. But if in the

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:49.000
<v Speaker 1>process I help somebody make a life decision that will

0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.560
<v Speaker 1>change the course of their life, or allow them to

0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.080
<v Speaker 1>make an informed decision, then I've done a good job.

0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:01.160
<v Speaker 1>Kitty has a deep respect for impact her work has,

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.880
<v Speaker 1>good or bad, which is why over the last many

0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:08.520
<v Speaker 1>years she has become a nationally recognized investigative ethicist. She

0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.440
<v Speaker 1>literally wrote the book on ethical standards for being an investigator,

0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:15.640
<v Speaker 1>and she tours the country giving lectures on how to

0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.720
<v Speaker 1>do this job in a responsible way. Recently, she was

0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.359
<v Speaker 1>doing a session with a pretty elite group of investigators,

0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:26.000
<v Speaker 1>and somebody asked me the question, how do you show empathy?

0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.520
<v Speaker 1>And it just blew me for a loop, and I said,

0:14:31.600 --> 0:14:36.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't I feel it. Being a p I sounds

0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.560
<v Speaker 1>like a cool job, and Kitty says it is. But

0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.160
<v Speaker 1>on the flip side, there are times when you are

0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.960
<v Speaker 1>talking to a person on the worst day of their life,

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.160
<v Speaker 1>people who have lost a loved one or were a

0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.680
<v Speaker 1>victim of a crime, people scared for their life, And

0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.080
<v Speaker 1>if you don't appreciate that, then maybe you shouldn't be

0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:55.120
<v Speaker 1>doing this job. You've got to understand that everyone has

0:14:55.160 --> 0:15:00.480
<v Speaker 1>been traumatized in some way, and I'm w fitness to

0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.400
<v Speaker 1>their horror and I need to record it. I need

0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:08.160
<v Speaker 1>to be able to elicit the information from them so

0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.360
<v Speaker 1>that I can take their statements so that when I

0:15:10.480 --> 0:15:13.800
<v Speaker 1>present it in court it has a meaning and gravitas.

0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:24.960
<v Speaker 1>And that's that comes from respect. Talking with Kitty reminded

0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.400
<v Speaker 1>me of something pretty amazing. I heard the famous therapist

0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.440
<v Speaker 1>and author Esther Perel say on a podcast once when

0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:35.280
<v Speaker 1>she was talking about our relationship to our jobs. She said,

0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.440
<v Speaker 1>next time you're at dinner with new friends or at

0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.040
<v Speaker 1>a party and you're about to ask the routine question

0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.040
<v Speaker 1>what do you do for a living? Instead ask what

0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.680
<v Speaker 1>would you do if you weren't doing the job you do? Now.

0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:51.960
<v Speaker 1>That's always stuck with me because I feel like so

0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:54.520
<v Speaker 1>many of us right off what we can do for

0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:57.520
<v Speaker 1>because we don't have the education for it, or we

0:15:57.520 --> 0:15:59.840
<v Speaker 1>didn't grow up around it, or we don't look the

0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:03.600
<v Speaker 1>are But sometimes what qualifies you for a job is

0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.840
<v Speaker 1>your deepest beliefs, the thing that gets you up in

0:16:06.840 --> 0:16:10.400
<v Speaker 1>the morning. Kitty still looks like a high school art teacher,

0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.280
<v Speaker 1>but her desire led her to being one of the

0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:17.440
<v Speaker 1>most respected investigators in her industry. That desire she had

0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.160
<v Speaker 1>as a young nerdy outcast to be part of the

0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.520
<v Speaker 1>solution rather than the problem. I asked her if she

0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:29.000
<v Speaker 1>still felt that way about her work. Oh, my, every day.

0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:32.560
<v Speaker 1>You know, we work so hard on the case and

0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.920
<v Speaker 1>don't always see the end of it. Sometimes all the

0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:41.160
<v Speaker 1>information goes to an attorney and you never know what happened. Wow,

0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.720
<v Speaker 1>I didn't even think of that. That's some very delayed satisfaction,

0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:51.320
<v Speaker 1>if any at all. Yeah. Okay, So I worked with

0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.560
<v Speaker 1>a gentleman from Philadelphia. I could say his name because

0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:59.000
<v Speaker 1>he is now free. It's jim Dennis. He was wrongfully

0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:04.359
<v Speaker 1>incarcerated almost twenty years ago. Jimmy Dennis is an R

0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.200
<v Speaker 1>and B musician in Philadelphia, and when he was twenty one,

0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.760
<v Speaker 1>he was wrongfully convicted of our murder. No physical evidence,

0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.680
<v Speaker 1>no weapon, no DNA, and he was put on death row.

0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:18.159
<v Speaker 1>Kitty worked on his case, and eighteen years later I

0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.800
<v Speaker 1>was sitting in a coffee shop and I got a

0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:24.280
<v Speaker 1>telephone call and a voice said, Mrs Kitty, I just

0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:26.679
<v Speaker 1>want to thank you, and I said, who is this?

0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:30.480
<v Speaker 1>He said, this is Jimmy Dennis. I'm on my way

0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:34.600
<v Speaker 1>home from prison. And I said in that coffee shop

0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:44.960
<v Speaker 1>and cried like a baby. It was so wonderful to

0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.240
<v Speaker 1>know that work I had done for eighteen years had

0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.439
<v Speaker 1>finally resulted in someone going home to a family, a

0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.359
<v Speaker 1>baby he had never held, a child he had not seen.

0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:59.280
<v Speaker 1>You know, it was somebody whose life was able to

0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.320
<v Speaker 1>be not for hole again, but at least she was

0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.639
<v Speaker 1>able to live a life outside of the four walls

0:18:05.680 --> 0:18:08.520
<v Speaker 1>of an eight by ten, which he was in for

0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:16.000
<v Speaker 1>eighteen years. You know that was humbling. So yeah, I

0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:20.720
<v Speaker 1>love what I do. It's not easy. It's hard work.

0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:25.760
<v Speaker 1>It's long hours, and it's so freaking satisfying. It's great,

0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.760
<v Speaker 1>and I'm going to do it until i can't stand

0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:40.919
<v Speaker 1>up anymore. For On the Job, I'm Modus Gray. To

0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:43.240
<v Speaker 1>learn more about Kitty and her work, go to Kitty

0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Haley dot com. Thanks for listening to On the Job,

0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.919
<v Speaker 1>brought to you by Express Employment Professionals. The season of

0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:59.959
<v Speaker 1>On the Job is produced by Audiation. The episodes were

0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.680
<v Speaker 1>written and produced by me Otis Gray. Our executive producer

0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.600
<v Speaker 1>is Sandy Smallens. The show is mixed by Matt Noble

0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:09.640
<v Speaker 1>for Audiation Studios at the Loft in Bronxville, New York.

0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:13.480
<v Speaker 1>Music by Blue Dot Sessions. Find us on I Heart

0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.000
<v Speaker 1>Radio and Apple Podcasts. If you liked what you heard,

0:19:17.160 --> 0:19:20.360
<v Speaker 1>please consider rating and reviewing the show on Apple Podcasts

0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.399
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen. We'll see you next time. For

0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:35.040
<v Speaker 1>more inspiring stories about discovering your life's work. Audiation