1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,760
Speaker 1: It's time to get inside the Giants huttele Let's go

2
00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: on Giants dot Com, the Giants Mobile, the Giants Podcast Network.

3
00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:12,480
Speaker 1: Welcome to the newest Giants Huttle Podcast. John Smoke with

4
00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,880
Speaker 1: you today's guest from Pro Football Focus, Steve Palozolo, but

5
00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:17,600
Speaker 1: first one in re mind. Everybody can find the John

6
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,599
Speaker 1: Suttle Podcast on the Gihants Mobile app, at johnts dot com,

7
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,400
Speaker 1: slash podcast, and your favorite podcast platforms. I will warn

8
00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,680
Speaker 1: everybody ahead of time. If you hear thunder lightning, that's me.

9
00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:30,760
Speaker 1: If you hear Cicada's that's Steve as we battle mother

10
00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,919
Speaker 1: nature here um throughout the episode. So Steve, it's good

11
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,639
Speaker 1: to talkie. It's been a while, man. How is everything

12
00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,880
Speaker 1: in the Dark Mountain layer of Pro Football Focus? It's

13
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,040
Speaker 1: it's good. Yeah, it's good too. It's good to chat

14
00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,320
Speaker 1: some football too, But it's it's I enjoy the off season.

15
00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,479
Speaker 1: I enjoyed team building season and discussing all this stuff,

16
00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,279
Speaker 1: and you know, then you just get geared up and

17
00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,480
Speaker 1: ready ready for more football. But I always enjoyed this

18
00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,680
Speaker 1: time of year, previewing and and getting ready for all

19
00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:01,440
Speaker 1: the fun. Yeah, we have about a month and a

20
00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,840
Speaker 1: half to get any vacation that we have left out

21
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 1: of the way, because lord knows, we're not taking it

22
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,920
Speaker 1: between August and December. So let's talk some football here,

23
00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,040
Speaker 1: Steve al Right, before we get into details, let's just

24
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:17,160
Speaker 1: start very very basically. How does PFF and you view

25
00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,600
Speaker 1: the Giants from a twenty thousand foot view as a

26
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:26,000
Speaker 1: franchise heading into I think I think the word pivotal

27
00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,640
Speaker 1: comes to mind, you know, for for Daniel Jones, for

28
00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,840
Speaker 1: for the entire team building effort. I think I think

29
00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,720
Speaker 1: they've done a lot of good things. You know, the

30
00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 1: secondary is looking really good, you know, the the defense,

31
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:40,440
Speaker 1: I kept describing them as fighty last year. You know,

32
00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,200
Speaker 1: they just they'd have some games where they were, you know,

33
00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,240
Speaker 1: holding the Seahawks down and not yet, so they think

34
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 1: the defense was moving in the right area. Uh. And

35
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 1: I think the fact that they've they've attacked wide receiver

36
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:54,360
Speaker 1: and tight end, I think the way you're supposed to

37
00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:55,960
Speaker 1: attack it, you know, I think that's how you win

38
00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,000
Speaker 1: in today's NFL. You build a basketball team of of

39
00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,680
Speaker 1: past catchers. And you know, I'm sure we'll talk far

40
00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,640
Speaker 1: more details behind that, but I think that is the

41
00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:08,160
Speaker 1: key here. You know, the the NFL is one on

42
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,720
Speaker 1: the perimeter with receivers and with corners and with safeties

43
00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,280
Speaker 1: and and it's counterintuitive to a lot of uh, you know,

44
00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:17,880
Speaker 1: I think what people think around the NFL. But just well,

45
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:20,400
Speaker 1: we'll talk offensive line as well. There's that big question

46
00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,240
Speaker 1: mark on the line. You can't be bad on the

47
00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:24,040
Speaker 1: offensive line. You can't. You don't want to be bad

48
00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:26,680
Speaker 1: on the defensive line. So, um, I think there's a

49
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,680
Speaker 1: lot of pieces moving in the right direction. And then

50
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,200
Speaker 1: it all comes down to Daniel Jones, the pivotal year three,

51
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,560
Speaker 1: and um, can he take that next step going forward? Yeah?

52
00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:36,600
Speaker 1: And I think Daniel Jones is a great place to start,

53
00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:38,919
Speaker 1: right because once you marry your franchise to a quarterback,

54
00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,120
Speaker 1: he's gonna have a bigger impact on your franchise than

55
00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,120
Speaker 1: any single player, even position group on your roster. And

56
00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:49,600
Speaker 1: a lot of giant fans you know that watched casually. Think, boy,

57
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,800
Speaker 1: Daniel Jones took a step back in your two only

58
00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,120
Speaker 1: you know, twelve touchdowns. But I looked at all the tape.

59
00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,320
Speaker 1: You guys have your metrics too. If you look at

60
00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,800
Speaker 1: a lot of the underlying numbers here, take touchdown production

61
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,120
Speaker 1: at it, which I know was important. He actually made

62
00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,120
Speaker 1: a lot of improvements in his second year, and a

63
00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 1: lot of your metrics show that too, right, Yeah, I

64
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:11,840
Speaker 1: mean it's it's just hilarious what a difference a year makes.

65
00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:15,639
Speaker 1: Not we we didn't want to temper expectations a year

66
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,360
Speaker 1: ago at this time because Giants fans were excited about

67
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,600
Speaker 1: what Daniel Jones did in year one four. It was

68
00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,120
Speaker 1: the three games with four plus touchdowns, no picks had

69
00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,600
Speaker 1: on the five five touchdown game in there. So there

70
00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,120
Speaker 1: was some some big games, and then last year the

71
00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,440
Speaker 1: stats weren't is good, and our PFF grades actually said

72
00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 1: last year he was better than his rookie season, which

73
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,040
Speaker 1: sounds crazy, but I think it's highlights the importance of

74
00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:44,240
Speaker 1: supporting tast It highlights the importance of receivers, playmaker's offensive line.

75
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 1: He was under pressure more than any other quarterback last year,

76
00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:49,560
Speaker 1: and that's a factor. He had the same number of

77
00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,760
Speaker 1: big time throws by our numbers, actually a higher percentage

78
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 1: in two thousand twenty versus two thousand nine. Touchdown production

79
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,640
Speaker 1: does tend to fluctuate. It's not always a quarterback driven stats.

80
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,800
Speaker 1: So my high level view of Daniel Jones is Actually

81
00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,920
Speaker 1: he hasn't changed much from what we've seen coming out.

82
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,400
Speaker 1: I compared him a little bit to Nick Foles when

83
00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 1: he came out, and that was in both a good

84
00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,119
Speaker 1: and a bad way. I thought Nick Foles, he went

85
00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,000
Speaker 1: on that Super Bowl run when you had that beautiful

86
00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 1: offensive line and playmakers and play calling, it all came together.

87
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,159
Speaker 1: And Nick Foles is just aggressive and he's gonna throw

88
00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 1: the ball when he's under pressure, and he's gonna take

89
00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,800
Speaker 1: a hit and make plays that uh that aw you,

90
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,159
Speaker 1: and then plays where you're just scratching your head. And

91
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,640
Speaker 1: I think Daniel Jones still has elements of all of that.

92
00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,600
Speaker 1: So it all comes down to that supporting cast. Like

93
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,840
Speaker 1: NFL quarterbacks are really a product of what's around them,

94
00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,400
Speaker 1: So I wouldn't be I wasn't point is, I wasn't

95
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,200
Speaker 1: overly encouraged by Jones after his rookie season. I'm not

96
00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:51,320
Speaker 1: overly discouraged by his second season. I think he's the

97
00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,840
Speaker 1: same guy, and if the offensive line can just you know,

98
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,800
Speaker 1: hold tight just a little bit more, I think he's

99
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 1: in his best situation from a playmaker standpoint all right,

100
00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 1: two areas of the game I want to lock in

101
00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,400
Speaker 1: on one is And this is one of my favorite

102
00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 1: stat that you guys do is turnover worthy plays. Because

103
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,719
Speaker 1: a quarterback and have eight dropped interceptions in the year

104
00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,800
Speaker 1: and the stats don't show it. A quarterback and have

105
00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:15,880
Speaker 1: three passes deflected for an interception. The stats don't show

106
00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,400
Speaker 1: drop passes that go right to defenders. And on the

107
00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:20,960
Speaker 1: other hand, you can have years where it fluctuates, but

108
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,280
Speaker 1: your turnover worthy play stats you credit quarterbacks for sack

109
00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,960
Speaker 1: fumbles that's their fault ones that aren't. I think it's

110
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,440
Speaker 1: a great stat and it wasn't quite in half. But

111
00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,920
Speaker 1: that number for Jones did drop pretty significantly in his

112
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: second year according to your metrics. Yeah it did. And

113
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,560
Speaker 1: the you know, the interception totals don't show it. Uh,

114
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 1: in year one, a big chunk of them were fumbles.

115
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,719
Speaker 1: It's a get with its sixteen seventeen total fumbles that

116
00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,960
Speaker 1: he had that year. And the way we do it

117
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,840
Speaker 1: is we we we say, look, sometimes you're just they're unavoidable. Right,

118
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,640
Speaker 1: You've got left tackle gets whooped and you get strip

119
00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,960
Speaker 1: sacked in your throwing motion and it's a fumble, but

120
00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,359
Speaker 1: it's not your fault. But Daniel Jones had about ten

121
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:01,400
Speaker 1: or eleven that we're definitely hit spot in year one

122
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,599
Speaker 1: and you know, whether you're left guard recovers it or not,

123
00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:06,600
Speaker 1: it's still a bad play. It's still a bad fumble.

124
00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,760
Speaker 1: So um, that was a big part of his grade

125
00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:10,400
Speaker 1: not being all that great as a rookie. So he

126
00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,120
Speaker 1: had thirty two total turnover worthy plays. That includes misreading

127
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,440
Speaker 1: linebackers throw, you know, throwing the ball to a linebacker,

128
00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,440
Speaker 1: throw under throwing it, and a corner having a shot

129
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:21,440
Speaker 1: at an interception whether they pick it off or not

130
00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,080
Speaker 1: at a bad throw. And that was what Jones had

131
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:25,680
Speaker 1: a bunch of those as a rookie, but a lot

132
00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:28,760
Speaker 1: of them were holding the ball too long and just

133
00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,400
Speaker 1: pour ball security in the pocket. But yeah, he almost

134
00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,400
Speaker 1: cut him in half last year. But again, the interception

135
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,719
Speaker 1: totals were about the same, right, I mean it was

136
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,040
Speaker 1: you're in that same range, and um, it doesn't always

137
00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:42,080
Speaker 1: show up on the stat sheet, but yeah, turn over

138
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,000
Speaker 1: worthy plays have proven to be a more consistent number

139
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,040
Speaker 1: than say interception rate and um, you know other numbers

140
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,600
Speaker 1: that are used. So um that I would say is

141
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,360
Speaker 1: a good sign for Jones that he did, you know, overall,

142
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,479
Speaker 1: and a play by play basis, took a took better

143
00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,359
Speaker 1: care of the ball. Last The other thing to me

144
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,400
Speaker 1: see that was encouraging was as deep ball as a rookie,

145
00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,520
Speaker 1: I thought his deeper was very inconsistent. Earlier in the year,

146
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,279
Speaker 1: if I remember right, he was doing a lot of overthrows,

147
00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:06,640
Speaker 1: and late in the yearned some bad weather, he had

148
00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,039
Speaker 1: a lot of under throws. But in his second year

149
00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 1: eye test and according to your metrics too, he was

150
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 1: one of the more accurate deep ball throwers in the league. Now,

151
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 1: there weren't a ton of them. They didn't have a

152
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 1: lot of attempts down the field, but the ones he made,

153
00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,520
Speaker 1: he was good. How talk about that a little bit,

154
00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,520
Speaker 1: and also how consistent is that year to year or

155
00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,480
Speaker 1: is that something that will naturally fluctuate for most quarterbacks.

156
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,000
Speaker 1: Now that that's the one that fluctuates a little bit.

157
00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: But if you want to evaluate what he did last year,

158
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,840
Speaker 1: highest passer rating in the league on twenty plus yard throws,

159
00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 1: but you're right there was it was only nine nine

160
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,080
Speaker 1: point six percent of his attempts. That is near the

161
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:42,480
Speaker 1: bottom of the league. That's bottom ten or so just

162
00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,720
Speaker 1: from attempt standpoint, So you know, just from a football sense,

163
00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,920
Speaker 1: they were opportunistic, they were few and far between. It's

164
00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,200
Speaker 1: not as simple as just you know, chuck it left

165
00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,680
Speaker 1: and right. But he was efficient throwing the ball down

166
00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:55,040
Speaker 1: the field, and that was you know, if you look

167
00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,600
Speaker 1: at his last year at Duke before he got hurt,

168
00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,920
Speaker 1: those first three games he played Army played Northwestern, and

169
00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,160
Speaker 1: he was incredible deep post you know, touch and he

170
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,480
Speaker 1: showed a really good deep ball. So I think I

171
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,160
Speaker 1: think the answers somewhere in between between his rookie any flash,

172
00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,679
Speaker 1: some of it his rookie season as well, but somewhere

173
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 1: in between rookie season and last year. So yeah, that's

174
00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,280
Speaker 1: that stuff does tend to fluctuate a little bit. But

175
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,800
Speaker 1: it's also somewhat dependent on your receivers. So when you

176
00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,400
Speaker 1: have a Darius Slayton with his deep speed, when you

177
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,600
Speaker 1: have a Kenny Golladay with his contested catch ability, those

178
00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,800
Speaker 1: guys will start to influence those deep off staffs as well.

179
00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,280
Speaker 1: So if you've got the playmakers, a lot of times

180
00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,040
Speaker 1: you can be productive throwing the ball down the field

181
00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:36,959
Speaker 1: and more willing to throw it. When you have a

182
00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:38,960
Speaker 1: guy like Golladay, he doesn't have to be wide open

183
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,439
Speaker 1: to it to make those plays. All right, So let's

184
00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,920
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about the weapons you guys had. I

185
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,320
Speaker 1: believe Wide receiver group rankings up the other day, and

186
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:47,920
Speaker 1: I think the Giants were right near the middle of

187
00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:50,480
Speaker 1: the league. I think around fifteen if I'm not mistaken

188
00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,800
Speaker 1: off memory. Just talk about how they've added to that group.

189
00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,920
Speaker 1: And I think what I like about it's Steve. They

190
00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:57,720
Speaker 1: seem to have a guy that can play every role right,

191
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,199
Speaker 1: slays your deep speed guy goaladays you're big us to

192
00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,000
Speaker 1: catch guy, Sheppard your slack guy. You know, Tony's your

193
00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,040
Speaker 1: yards after catch guy. Then you're Barkley out of the

194
00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,160
Speaker 1: backfield Ingram and Rudolph compient each other. Well, it seems

195
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,400
Speaker 1: they've really kind of checked every you know box in

196
00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,600
Speaker 1: that wide receiver toolbox, you know, checklist that people have.

197
00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:17,000
Speaker 1: I think, I I hope I ranked them a little

198
00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:19,319
Speaker 1: bit higher than that. I mean, I like what they've done.

199
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,400
Speaker 1: There's still some questions. You don't know exactly what you're

200
00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,880
Speaker 1: gonna get from Tony in year one, but you described

201
00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,360
Speaker 1: it exactly how I would Again, I've I've compared it

202
00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,600
Speaker 1: to I'm stealing this analogy. I can't even remember who

203
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,400
Speaker 1: was from and by the way, st was eleven A right,

204
00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,640
Speaker 1: So yeah they were what they were, pritty. I like

205
00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,959
Speaker 1: where they are and they could be even higher. I'm

206
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,560
Speaker 1: steal in the analogy of building the basketball team, right,

207
00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,280
Speaker 1: you want to have a rebounder, you want to have

208
00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,679
Speaker 1: a guy with height and leaping ability. You want to

209
00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:46,840
Speaker 1: have quickness, you want to have speed, because what you know,

210
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 1: offensive football is about attacking matchups. And I think with

211
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,840
Speaker 1: the Giants have created is a world where in a

212
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 1: given week, Kenny Golladay can be the guy, if the

213
00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,679
Speaker 1: matchup dictates to Darius Tony can be the guy, if

214
00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 1: the matchup dictates Kyle Rue Dolf and Evan Ingram can

215
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:02,720
Speaker 1: have a big game. And of course, you know se

216
00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:07,199
Speaker 1: Kwon Barkley. We've we've done plenty of trashing of the

217
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,720
Speaker 1: early run running back selection as far as team building

218
00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:12,680
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. But if you're gonna maximize se

219
00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,200
Speaker 1: Kwon Barkley's value, you've got to use him in the

220
00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,960
Speaker 1: past game and and it becomes a matchup driven game.

221
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,520
Speaker 1: And if if if a certain team matches up well

222
00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,080
Speaker 1: with your receivers in your tight ends, boom, You've got

223
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,320
Speaker 1: Sae Kawon Barkley and his ability to run routes out

224
00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 1: of the backfield or split up split out wive. So

225
00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,240
Speaker 1: I love a lot of what they've done there. Slayton

226
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,560
Speaker 1: as the deep speed guy, Golladay can kind of do

227
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:37,559
Speaker 1: it all. But yes, contested catches, vertical threat uh Tony,

228
00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 1: I think you can eat him in as a gimmick player,

229
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,560
Speaker 1: slot player. He might even have outside receiver potential down

230
00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,280
Speaker 1: the road, but you don't have to tap into that yet.

231
00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,520
Speaker 1: I still think Sterling Shepherd's valuable player, and John Ross

232
00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,319
Speaker 1: is gonna make two if he has this chance, He's

233
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,840
Speaker 1: gonna make like two or three plays where you say wow,

234
00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,800
Speaker 1: quickness and speed and here's why he was the ninth

235
00:10:56,800 --> 00:10:59,240
Speaker 1: overall pick. There's just so many bad plays in there too,

236
00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:01,040
Speaker 1: But I would take a show on John Ross every

237
00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,520
Speaker 1: year just in taste. You can put it all together.

238
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,000
Speaker 1: So I think the strategy behind how they've built this

239
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 1: pass catching unit is absolutely fantastic. How much you guys

240
00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,720
Speaker 1: put stock in in in your metrics and other studies

241
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,319
Speaker 1: you've done for actually being in the same system for

242
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,680
Speaker 1: second straight year. Do you see an actual impact with

243
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,199
Speaker 1: that with teams or is that something that people talk

244
00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,880
Speaker 1: about anecdotally that the data shows is not true. I

245
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,319
Speaker 1: think it's more anecdotal, and i'd have to see if

246
00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,560
Speaker 1: we've if we've done so defensively, it's actually interesting we've

247
00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,680
Speaker 1: we've shown just making a change a lot of times

248
00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 1: makes an impact. Now, there's probably some noise there because

249
00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:40,760
Speaker 1: it's like, well, if you're making a change, you're probably

250
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,960
Speaker 1: bad and you'll probably get better. Um, But yeah, I

251
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,560
Speaker 1: think I think it's more Yeah, I think it's just

252
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,800
Speaker 1: more theory than anything, you know, And it's I'm sure

253
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,720
Speaker 1: every coach is gonna be saying it. And Daniel Jones

254
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:55,679
Speaker 1: is a thousand times better than he was last year

255
00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,840
Speaker 1: at this time. I'm sure that's every quote right now.

256
00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:00,280
Speaker 1: But if but if you think it's going going to

257
00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, lead to ten more touchdowns or lead to

258
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,000
Speaker 1: a thousand more passing yards or something, there's there's not

259
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 1: I don't think a whole lot of evidence that it's

260
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,440
Speaker 1: gonna tangibly show up on the field and actual production.

261
00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,920
Speaker 1: How much is red zone fluctuate for you guys? You know,

262
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:14,600
Speaker 1: these are a lot of the analytics questions I usually

263
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,040
Speaker 1: ask George when I talk to him in July and

264
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:17,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do that again, but I know the Giants

265
00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:19,360
Speaker 1: in the red zone last year were poor, and I

266
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,719
Speaker 1: think the Galaday and Rudolph signings and a lot of

267
00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,120
Speaker 1: focus was that was red zone production, right, getting getting

268
00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,120
Speaker 1: the ball in the end zone. How much does that

269
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,520
Speaker 1: fluctuate year to year? Is that a product of talent?

270
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:30,200
Speaker 1: Is that a product of scheme? Mostly from when your

271
00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 1: guys look at is it the run game? Is that

272
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,679
Speaker 1: where that really is important? In the red zone? How

273
00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,559
Speaker 1: do you guys do read zone production year and year

274
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,360
Speaker 1: out for some of these teams so so quarterback performance

275
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,680
Speaker 1: that they fluctuates. Yeah, I think any anything that is

276
00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:44,360
Speaker 1: really a small sample size does tend to fluctuate. So

277
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,120
Speaker 1: red zone of course. I mean it's what a tenth

278
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,600
Speaker 1: of the game or whatever as far as your snap,

279
00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 1: so that that will absolutely tend to fluctuate. And I

280
00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,000
Speaker 1: think what happens is you the game of football is

281
00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,800
Speaker 1: having answers, right, And like like I was saying earlier,

282
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,760
Speaker 1: if if Galaday and Slayton and Tony you're taking away

283
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:03,880
Speaker 1: your answer is, you know, tight ends in Barkley, And

284
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,280
Speaker 1: I think that's what the red zone is, and that's

285
00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:10,080
Speaker 1: why having different style players is really important. You're not

286
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,439
Speaker 1: just gonna throw fifteen faiths to Golladay and all of

287
00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:15,400
Speaker 1: a sudden the red zone is gonna be solved. But

288
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,840
Speaker 1: if you have that many receivers to cover, you'll you'll

289
00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,120
Speaker 1: have more running lanes if you if, if, if the

290
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,559
Speaker 1: running game is successful, you will have more opportunities one

291
00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:26,720
Speaker 1: on one. So it's having those answers and I think

292
00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,280
Speaker 1: that should certainly lead to some improvement there. How about

293
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,079
Speaker 1: Barkley and you we always we talk about running back

294
00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,920
Speaker 1: value a lot too. Does his value increase because like

295
00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:38,760
Speaker 1: we're some running backs, all right, you turn a three

296
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:41,040
Speaker 1: yard game to a five yard game, what do you do?

297
00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,960
Speaker 1: But Barkley does have the ability to turn that four

298
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,000
Speaker 1: yard gain into a sixty yard game, right, So does

299
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,040
Speaker 1: that add a little punch there? And does that impact

300
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 1: other errors of the offense as well? When you have

301
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:55,200
Speaker 1: that big play running back that can be maybe more

302
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,120
Speaker 1: explosive than say even like an Ezekiel Eli, who's more

303
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,200
Speaker 1: of a ground than pound type of game. Oh, I

304
00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,280
Speaker 1: absolutely think so. You know, if if if I was,

305
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,640
Speaker 1: if I was going to invest in the running back,

306
00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:07,040
Speaker 1: I either want a guy who was an absolute mismatch

307
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:09,400
Speaker 1: weapon in the past game or a guy who could

308
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:10,679
Speaker 1: take it to the house. And that is where but

309
00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 1: we saw that, you know, Barkley's rookie season, and his

310
00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,280
Speaker 1: his rookie season looked a lot like what he was

311
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 1: at Penn State. He's gonna have negative runs. He's not

312
00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,560
Speaker 1: necessarily a maximize your run blocking type of guy, but

313
00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,680
Speaker 1: if you block it up, he's going sixty right and uh,

314
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,400
Speaker 1: he has that ability. And you know, Todd Gurley was

315
00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:30,800
Speaker 1: similar early in his career. If you look at the

316
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,000
Speaker 1: fluctuation in Todd Gurley's production, it was like if the

317
00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,720
Speaker 1: Rams play calling was bad and their offensive line was bad,

318
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,200
Speaker 1: where's Gurley. He's averaging three and a half per Carrie.

319
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,800
Speaker 1: But once they blocked it up, he wasn't the same

320
00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,000
Speaker 1: explosive big play threat. But once they blocked it up,

321
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,240
Speaker 1: he's a one cut guy who could be efficient and

322
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,480
Speaker 1: move the chains and be a really good running back.

323
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,240
Speaker 1: I think State Kwon has a ton of that right

324
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,640
Speaker 1: pass game run game, and so the run blocking might

325
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,080
Speaker 1: not be better this year, but Barkley always felt like

326
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 1: the guy in the right year when they when you

327
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,240
Speaker 1: have that great run blocking offensive line and it all

328
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,080
Speaker 1: comes together, he's gonna have five six, maybe heaven of

329
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,320
Speaker 1: those sixty yard runs and he's gonna have that eighteen

330
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,040
Speaker 1: hundred yard season and catch a ton of passes. So yeah,

331
00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,160
Speaker 1: I think all of that ability is there, and I

332
00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,600
Speaker 1: would rather have the explosive playmaker who's a pass game

333
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,560
Speaker 1: weapon then say a Zeke who grounded, grounded out, you know,

334
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 1: ground and pound type of guy. And that's the trick

335
00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:24,960
Speaker 1: if they block it up. And now let's get to

336
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,800
Speaker 1: the offensive line. Steve, you guys had the offensive line

337
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,920
Speaker 1: rank thirty two out of thirty two and your offensive

338
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:32,640
Speaker 1: line rankings. It created quite the bruhaha on our call

339
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 1: and shows I'm not gonna lie, but there's nuance to it.

340
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:38,840
Speaker 1: And I listened to your p f F NFL podcast.

341
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,200
Speaker 1: Everyone else should too, Steve Pale's old Sam Monson go

342
00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,800
Speaker 1: check it out downloaded. I always listened on me the

343
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:45,760
Speaker 1: running on doing my yard work. It's a great listen.

344
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,240
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean they're going to be last. There

345
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,480
Speaker 1: is room there for improvement and a room step forward.

346
00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 1: So Steve, why don't you just delve into a little

347
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,440
Speaker 1: bit deeper of how you got to that point where

348
00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 1: they came in the thirty two and what that actually means. Yeah,

349
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,240
Speaker 1: So when I go through the rankings, I I try

350
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:10,440
Speaker 1: to it's not all completely scientific. It's not just a

351
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 1: pure ranking like the ranking will guide us. It's our

352
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 1: north star as far as their historic grades and all

353
00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 1: that stuff. But this isn't a spreadsheet spitting out the answers.

354
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,200
Speaker 1: So I'll write up the offensive line and say, you know,

355
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 1: Andrew Thomas did this, and right up everybody and then

356
00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,760
Speaker 1: put this hypothetical. They feel like, you know, number twenty

357
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: five or number twenty eight, and I think that's where

358
00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,600
Speaker 1: I had the Giants initially, or twenty nine, but then

359
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,200
Speaker 1: I had other teams higher than that, and you sort

360
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 1: it all out and it's like, all right, the Giants

361
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,160
Speaker 1: are last in the rankings, and it's it's just where

362
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:44,200
Speaker 1: do you feel confident that they will have success? And

363
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,920
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have a spot along the

364
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 1: offensive line where you feel confident. Now, of course it's

365
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,480
Speaker 1: the off season. It's June, and I'm gonna give the

366
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,560
Speaker 1: positive outlook, the one that the fans want to hear.

367
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 1: I'll explain how that's gonna happen. Andrew Thomas started out slow.

368
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,560
Speaker 1: He got better as the as the season wore on.

369
00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:01,920
Speaker 1: So um, we also liked them quite a bit coming

370
00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 1: out of college. I expect him to be better. Um,

371
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:06,479
Speaker 1: you'll know better than me if Nate Solder is going

372
00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 1: to be around. Um, he he planned. He he was

373
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,679
Speaker 1: out there a right tackle, no question. Yeah. And so

374
00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 1: if it is a true battle between Nates Solder and

375
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,960
Speaker 1: Matt Tere, you know, I think whoever wins that, I

376
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,320
Speaker 1: think that ends up becoming a solid spot at You know,

377
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,840
Speaker 1: Solder is coming off his worst season since his rookie

378
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:25,440
Speaker 1: year though the last time we saw him in two

379
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,760
Speaker 1: thousand nineteen. But and he hasn't played right tackle since

380
00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,720
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven. But if he wins the job over paired,

381
00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,480
Speaker 1: then he'll have an average tackle season, which is really valuable.

382
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 1: And Matt Parrot, if he wins, he'll probably have an

383
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:38,639
Speaker 1: average tackle season. And we we liked him as a

384
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,560
Speaker 1: developmental prospect coming out of Yukon. But you see, it's

385
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:43,399
Speaker 1: a bunch of guys who haven't really done it yet.

386
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 1: The interior is still a big question. I know Nick

387
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 1: Gates did a good job for a guy who's never

388
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,919
Speaker 1: played center, but in relation to other centers in the NFL.

389
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 1: He was still a bottom tier center last year. Zach

390
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,040
Speaker 1: Fulton has played average football in his career. Again, it's valuable,

391
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,960
Speaker 1: but it's an average player amongst a bunch of other

392
00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 1: question marks. Were Hernandez has been a bit of a

393
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,760
Speaker 1: disappointment at left guard, and Shane Lebieu when he played

394
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 1: last year, was well below average in our numbers. So

395
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 1: there's nobody on that line where you're saying this guy

396
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 1: is good. This guy is definitely good, and then there's

397
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:15,080
Speaker 1: a couple of question marks. It's literally five genuine question

398
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,200
Speaker 1: marks up front, so it's really tough to put them

399
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,280
Speaker 1: above other offensive lines. And if you take the positive

400
00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 1: outlooks for the Giants, I gotta do it thirty one

401
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,440
Speaker 1: other times for every other team, and they're just looking

402
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 1: better right now. Yeah. Look, Dave Gentleman has made the point.

403
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:28,920
Speaker 1: He goes, look, we've drafted these guys, we have faith

404
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 1: in them. You have to let them play to see

405
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,000
Speaker 1: if they developed. And I think when you guys have

406
00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 1: found right, Steve is that offensive line development sometimes tasts

407
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 1: a little bit longer than other positions. Right, It absolutely does.

408
00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,320
Speaker 1: It is um and that's one of those cool things

409
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 1: that I think is really intuitive about football is you

410
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:46,720
Speaker 1: know you need reps on the offensive line, and there's

411
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:50,639
Speaker 1: physical development. You go from you know, college strength to

412
00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,960
Speaker 1: you develop your man strength when you're five years old.

413
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: I think that matters, you know. So um, that would

414
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:58,479
Speaker 1: be the encouraging sign that a Matt Part can take

415
00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 1: a step forward, and Andrew tom So or even will

416
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 1: Hernandez if he's back in there. Hernandez is right in

417
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,120
Speaker 1: that window. If he does get the opportunity to play,

418
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 1: he's run in that window where guys take ut they

419
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,119
Speaker 1: take jumps forward. So um, there is a lot of

420
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,440
Speaker 1: youth and we've seen that happen in recent years. Again,

421
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,439
Speaker 1: it's just if you're playing the odds, you gotta go

422
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 1: with the evidence that you have, and you know the

423
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 1: evidence is a lot of questions so far, how do

424
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,240
Speaker 1: you guys balance run blocking with with with pass pro

425
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 1: because I feel like the Giants did run the ball decently,

426
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,400
Speaker 1: especially the second half of the year, and their past

427
00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,960
Speaker 1: protection got better. I know you value pass protection more obviously,

428
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 1: but when you do these rankings and you come up

429
00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,960
Speaker 1: with your composite grades and their split between run and

430
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,199
Speaker 1: pass blocking, how do you guys kind of bring that

431
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 1: all together to come up with your final grades. Yeah,

432
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 1: that's a good question. You know, pass pro is definitely

433
00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,760
Speaker 1: more important. But again, if you if you're gonna have

434
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,160
Speaker 1: a successful run game, the offensive line or you're run

435
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,800
Speaker 1: blocking in general is a bigger factor. And if teams

436
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,800
Speaker 1: are running the ball three and four hundred times per year,

437
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,199
Speaker 1: you still want to be good at it when you

438
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,200
Speaker 1: try it. So it's still it's close to a balance.

439
00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,760
Speaker 1: There's a lot of teams around the league that are

440
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,920
Speaker 1: really one side of the Texans the last couple of years,

441
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 1: the Chiefs the last couple of years have been really

442
00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 1: pass block heavy. Other teams better from a run blocking standpoint. So, um,

443
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 1: you know, a part of it is balancing what teams try.

444
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,040
Speaker 1: The Titans run the ball a ton, the Ravens run

445
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 1: the but so a lot of it's how often you're

446
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,960
Speaker 1: doing it, But most teams are trying to get that

447
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,560
Speaker 1: somewhat balanced offense. You've kind of factor in both as

448
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 1: much as possible. How seriously do you guys take improvement

449
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:25,960
Speaker 1: in at the back end of the year, Like Andrew

450
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 1: Thomas for example, first eight games or so, it was

451
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,199
Speaker 1: not great. It's not great. Final six much better. If

452
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,320
Speaker 1: if you look at his total pressure numbers, things like that,

453
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 1: you know, do you then take a look at whose

454
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 1: opponents are on those final six games? Do you assume

455
00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,240
Speaker 1: he just improved that the season went along? How do

456
00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 1: you view that when when a guy closes a season

457
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,879
Speaker 1: strong after starting it poorly. Do you make more of

458
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:49,879
Speaker 1: assumption that's going to carry over the next year? Do

459
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 1: you find that's not always the case? How do you

460
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 1: guys do that? Yeah, And it's kind of like the

461
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,119
Speaker 1: red zone stuff. You know, anytime you tighten up the

462
00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,399
Speaker 1: sample size, you're kind of playing with fire. It tells

463
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: a good story, right, And now with Andrew Thomas, I

464
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 1: would buy into it more because you saw his technique change.

465
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 1: You saw things tangibly change. So I would buy into

466
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 1: it a little bit more. But I'll tell you where

467
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 1: we screwed up in the past. The Sam Donald's right,

468
00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 1: I mean there was there were offseason Sam Donald, Gino Smith.

469
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 1: You know the Jets. The Jets are like they always

470
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: have the best quarterback play in Week seventeen. Gino Smith

471
00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,639
Speaker 1: was like week Mr Weeks seventeen. He'd always finished the

472
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 1: season strong, and you have this offseason optimism. And Donald

473
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,200
Speaker 1: had a stretch that either's rookie season or a second

474
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 1: year where he was, you know, one of the better

475
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: quarterbacks in the league over the last four weeks and

476
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,280
Speaker 1: it's easy to think, oh, he must be getting better

477
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 1: and better and what's going to carry over the next year,

478
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: And it didn't matter, you know, it was just a

479
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: small piece of a bigger sample stive. So I think

480
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: it's a dangerous thing to do sometimes unless you have

481
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:51,359
Speaker 1: tangible evidence of something that changed. And I think Andrew

482
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 1: Thomas would be an example of a guy that maybe

483
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: I'd buy into it, But overall, generally it's it's a

484
00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: little overrated. Specifically how much Steve because you actually you

485
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: during the game, I feel like he handles stunts, always

486
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 1: a smart player, but he always has two maybe three

487
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 1: reps per game where it's just a whiff and the

488
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,119
Speaker 1: three technique just like it's almost a no hit or

489
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,960
Speaker 1: no contact. How quickly do you just a couple of

490
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,199
Speaker 1: plays like that for a guard sink his overall grade.

491
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: With the way you guys look at this stuff, it's

492
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: a lot And this is where we might argue with

493
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 1: you know, offensive line folks and offensive line gurus and said, well,

494
00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: this guy was great except for three plays. I mean.

495
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,679
Speaker 1: So the perspective is, though, because we grade every player

496
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,480
Speaker 1: on every play, we know what a guard's expectations are, right,

497
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: so you're getting compared to your peers. So if you

498
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: get whipped by the three technique two and three times

499
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,280
Speaker 1: a game and quickly that doesn't have that happens maybe

500
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,600
Speaker 1: once probably half a time, you know, on average, so

501
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,480
Speaker 1: it happens eight times a year for the average guard.

502
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,120
Speaker 1: So if it happens three times in the game, how

503
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 1: bad is that? So it's all about perspective, would be

504
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:54,560
Speaker 1: like saying, well the quarterback was great, he just threw

505
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: three interceptions. Well, three interceptions in a game. We know

506
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 1: for a quarterback is not a good. Berg you multiplied

507
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: by sixteen, it's forty eight, we know that's not good.

508
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: So that's the issue I think it guard is is

509
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 1: your peers are giving up two pressures three pressures per game,

510
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 1: and I'm looking at Lemieux having six and seven and

511
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 1: four and three and other losses in there. So yeah,

512
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 1: that that was That is a part of the issue

513
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: with guards and centers when you give up a high

514
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 1: number of pressures. There's a lot of guys around the

515
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 1: league who just aren't doing that. Final question on the

516
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 1: offensive line, because we talk about this a lot too.

517
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,320
Speaker 1: You don't have to be a top ten offensive line,

518
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 1: just don't be a bottom seven offensive line. Get out

519
00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 1: of that bottom quartile and you'll be okay. And you're right,

520
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 1: the Giants have a lot of unproven players. They're counting

521
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,679
Speaker 1: on young players to improve, which can be dicey. Some

522
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: guys improve, some guys don't. The Giants tad guys like that.

523
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 1: They were named Eric Flowers and Bobby Hart. They kept

524
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,640
Speaker 1: put them out there, didn't get any better. They hope

525
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 1: it's going to be different with this group. So how

526
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 1: do you view the veterans. You mentioned Soldo already, and

527
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 1: I agree, he's a solid tackle behind those young guys.

528
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: You know, they have Wiggins, they have Zack Fulton, wherever

529
00:23:58,320 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: it comes down to, and they're like, all right, these

530
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: veterans gotta play. Is that going to get them to

531
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 1: the point where they're good enough to function or is

532
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,080
Speaker 1: that functionality is still going to be a question? You know,

533
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: it's still a question because yeah, the way you describe

534
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:14,440
Speaker 1: the line is right. You don't have to be great,

535
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 1: You just don't want to be bad and a guy

536
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 1: like Zach Fulton or a guy like Kenny Wiggins is

537
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: good when you know, he's more valuable or feels more

538
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,200
Speaker 1: valuable when you have two sturdy tackles or a sturdy center.

539
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: You know. So there are teams around the league who

540
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: are really good at three or four spots, and if

541
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 1: you plopped to Zach Fulton in there, it's like, all right,

542
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 1: this is a top ten offensive line and Zach Fulton's

543
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 1: piece there. But if Zach Fulton is your most consistent

544
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: player or your best player, um, then maybe you have

545
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 1: some issues, you know. So it's all about perspective. But

546
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 1: I think you know in a vacuum. I hate using

547
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 1: the word average because it comes across as like a knock.

548
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: But you know, my baseball example is like your number

549
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,679
Speaker 1: three or four starter, that guy is extremely valuable. You

550
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,680
Speaker 1: want you used to want him to throw two innings.

551
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 1: Now it's probably a hundred fifty, but you used to

552
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: want him to eat up innings and just not get

553
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: lit up too often. And that is extremely valuable. And

554
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: those guys make a ton of money. The average guard

555
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: or average tackle in today's NFL is extremely valuable because, um,

556
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 1: you just don't really want to have weaknesses along your

557
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: offensive line, Hey Giant fans, Limited Giant season tickets are

558
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: on sale now for the one season. In addition to

559
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 1: ticket savings, membership benefits include access to exclusive events, experiences,

560
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 1: pre sales, and more. You can lock on your seat

561
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 1: starting at just one hundred bucks called eight eight n

562
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 1: y g N or visit Giants dot com slash tickets

563
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 1: for more information. Let's get vaccinated. Go to COVID nineteen

564
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: dot MJ dot gov slash vaccine to register. Hey Giant fans,

565
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: don't miss that on your chance to experience a premiere

566
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: hospitality experience watching Giant games or world class concerts in

567
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: one as a Giant Sweet partner. Limited full season locations

568
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 1: are available, or place a deposit for individual games called

569
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: eight eight eight n y G or visit Giants dot

570
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: com slash suites for more information. We're joined by Steve Palzelo,

571
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: p F Underscore Steve. Steve, let's jump to the defense

572
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 1: very quickly here. I feel like the Giants have kind

573
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: of taken the PF defensive building strategy and really embraced

574
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: it here. They're focusing on that secondary. They're looking not

575
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: to have any weak points in that back end. Yeah,

576
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,399
Speaker 1: exactly what I said about the offensive line, right, because

577
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: the offensive line, if they have a weakness, the defense

578
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: can attack it. Same thing with a secondary. You know,

579
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: if you have a weak corner, you can be attacked.

580
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 1: So they've they have done a really good job of

581
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: I would say, and not completely building back to front.

582
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 1: We know they've invested a ton in the big guys,

583
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 1: but you know, James Bradbury was fantastic last year. I

584
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 1: love the Adory Jackson signing. UM. I love a lot

585
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 1: of signings on injury risk guys because I guess I'm

586
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: always you know, Mr optimism this time of year. So

587
00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: the best case scenario of a Dorri Jackson is really

588
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: really good. He's a top fifteen type of corner and

589
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: that's extremely viable. You might have two top fifteen corners

590
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 1: there with the Dory and James Bradbury. So that's a

591
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 1: great starting point. And I think they have options in

592
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: the slot with Avian McKinney. I love Darreon Robinson coming

593
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,199
Speaker 1: out of the draft and what what he can do

594
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: as a slot corner. I love the flexibility of Logan

595
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,120
Speaker 1: Ryan just being in the secondary and being homes too.

596
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: From last year. Yeah, Dona Holmes. I mean to me,

597
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: you throw a ton of resources at the secondary because

598
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 1: you need depth. You need depth just to handle injuries,

599
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: but you also need to you need five or six

600
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: guys out there in a given time that are just

601
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: solid and coverage can run multiple coverages. And I really

602
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: like the way the Giants has done that over the

603
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: past couple of years. And and they've missed on they

604
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: missed on a DeAndre Baker, and they've missed on corners.

605
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: But the strategy is found draft corners, sign them, and you,

606
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 1: you know, shuffle it all up and as long as

607
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: you get five or six good players, you you're in

608
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: a good spot. I want to talk to you about

609
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 1: coverage is how do you guys, is there a uniform

610
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: way to view decisions to play man more, zone more

611
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: in the NFL? Steve, does one defense lend itself to

612
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,239
Speaker 1: a certain style opposed to another? Is one generally more

613
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 1: effective than another? Because the Giants last year, I think

614
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: Patrick Graham, given his history, we all thought he'd be

615
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: a more of a you know, man to man defense guy.

616
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: Given one New England and manam he does to his credit.

617
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: I think he saw oh boy, we don't know who

618
00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: our second quarterback is. Playing a lot of man demand

619
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: is probably not the best idea, and he went to

620
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: his own heavy skin and it worked. But I think

621
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,160
Speaker 1: with the Dorry Jackson and maybe he swings back. So

622
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: my rambling question, I guess ends on this from a

623
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: broad perspective, zone verse man, how do you guys view

624
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: those decisions, the impact of those coverages in general when

625
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: you view NFL defenses. I think what we found is

626
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: a lot of things that the NFL knew already in

627
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: the in the numbers started to back it up, so

628
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: you know, and they're not zone versus man. One's not

629
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: better than the other. You know, if if one was better,

630
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: you every team would do it. Sure. Um, I do

631
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: look at man coverage like if you can pull it

632
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: off if you have the horses, so to speak, and

633
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: right and Patrick Graham, good job, you know, saying we

634
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have that. If you have the horses, it's

635
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: it's it's tougher to come passes. Um. So the broad

636
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: view is if you if you play man coverage, you're

637
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: generally gonna give up a lower completion percentage. But there's

638
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: more boomer bus to it, you know, if you get

639
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: beaten man coverage, it's a fifteen yard gain twenty yard gained.

640
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: Zone coverages, you can force more turnovers. Uh, you're generally

641
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: gonna allow shorter completions but a higher completion percentage. So

642
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: there's that general give or take. UM. I like to

643
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: theorize like if you could have a team that could

644
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: play zone on early downs, maybe force some turnovers and

645
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 1: then man up on third down because you just needed

646
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 1: in completion on third down. It's essentially for a turnover,

647
00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: you just needed incompletion. So I think any team that

648
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 1: has that flexibility to meet the NFL is always about

649
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: flexibility and matchups. It's not like we're just gonna play

650
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: cover too all the time. Uh, if you have the

651
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: horses to man up against good offenses, if you can

652
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: gain plan from a week to week, that's a very

653
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: Belichick thing. We're gonna gain plan differently. UM. So I

654
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: think that's, you know, the crux of it. It's adding

655
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: flexibility and adding those guys that could play zone, that

656
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: could play and and being able to adjust throughout the

657
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 1: season is the best case scenario. Um. But yeah, there's

658
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 1: definitely some strength and some weaknesses to just the general

659
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: premise of man verse soon. One thing I do like

660
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: Steve is teams that can play those two safeties deep,

661
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 1: and I think we saw that with the Rams last year,

662
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:15,960
Speaker 1: and I think the Bears did that for a long time.

663
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: And when you can have those two safeties deep and

664
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: prevent those big plays, it makes it really tough on

665
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: offenses these days. Is slowly matriculate the way down the field.

666
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: And I thought the Giants are able to do that

667
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: last year to where if you can start in that

668
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: too safety shell and you can disguise better, but be

669
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: if you can prevent those big plays, it just it

670
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 1: just makes everything defensively so much easier. Yeah, it's huge.

671
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're talking NFL trends, you want to

672
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: defend them. You want to defend the run. You don't

673
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: want to be bad against the run. You just don't

674
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: want to sell out against the run. Right twenty years

675
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: ago in training camp week, while we're gonna stop the run,

676
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: and that's what we gotta do first, and it's the

677
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: most important thing. And now it's we want to stop

678
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: the path. And then yeah, we we hope we stopped

679
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: the run. We we hope we can stop the run

680
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: with as few bodies as possible. And that's where you know,

681
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: guys like Dextra Lawrence and Leonard Williams and even adding

682
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,520
Speaker 1: a Danny Shelton, those guys are extremely extremely valuable because

683
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 1: you don't have to bring those safeties down in the box.

684
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: So that is one of those NFL trends. The Rams

685
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: were a perfect example of a team that creatively was

686
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 1: effective against the run, but most importantly was really good

687
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 1: against the past. You know, that is how you want

688
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: to play defense. If you stop the run too well,

689
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: seems are gonna pass too much on you and bad

690
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, Badford slowing down offenses. It just is so

691
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: um yeah, my ideal offense is too high safeties and

692
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: being able to just switch up coverages and do what

693
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 1: you can there and play the run with as few

694
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: bodies as possible. And and and you know that's I

695
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: think the trend in the NFL these days. Now. I

696
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: don't think this was on purpose. I think it's just

697
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: because there wasn't one available. But the Giants have approached

698
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: their pass rush without an elite edge rusher. You know,

699
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: they've focused on Leonard Williams inside Dexter Lawrence. You mentioned him,

700
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: you know, Lorenzo Carter Oceans and then as they've thrown

701
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: numbers at the problem at the edge rusher position, but

702
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: they don't have the guy. How do you guys view

703
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: the importance of having that big time edge rusher. I

704
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: know we you know, generally we've talked a lot about

705
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: the coverage verse pass rush deal, but edge rusher specifically,

706
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 1: I mean, how essential is it for an effective defense

707
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: to have guys that can win against those offensive tackles

708
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: one on one, which the giants I think are all

709
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: trying to figure out if they have that guy. Yeah.

710
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,239
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it depends on what you're

711
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,719
Speaker 1: gonna run defensively. So I imagine if you had George

712
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: on the show all the time, he would just say, hey,

713
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: coverage is more valuable than pass rush. I think that

714
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 1: the nuance behind that, though, is if you're running a

715
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: if you're running a Seattle system or an old Lovey

716
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: Smith cover two system and you rely on a four

717
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: man rush, you can't have a bad defensive line. And

718
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: I think, um, the smart defensive coordinators are stealing a

719
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: page from a Belichecker. What the Ravens do if you

720
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: don't have dominant one on one pass rushes. You you

721
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: have to scheam it up and and it becomes a

722
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 1: five man pressure game, and it becomes creating a little

723
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: bit of indecision and scheaming up you know, uh, free

724
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: runs for linebackers and various things like that. So you know,

725
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: I think it depends, you know, on what type of

726
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 1: scheme you're running, and I think the Giants probably have

727
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: the personnel where they have to do more of that,

728
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 1: right and they might be able to play a little

729
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: bit more man, have those five man rushes, have those

730
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: add on blisses um, and just try to speed the

731
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: quarterback up enough. Um. But yeah, if you're going to

732
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: attack and attacking with volume, I think is okay. And

733
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: you just hope that a guy like Olari, you know

734
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: he has that potentially, you hope that he takes that

735
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: step forward. You get two or three guys um that

736
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,239
Speaker 1: are at least competent rushing off the edge, because if

737
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: you have, if you have dominant players, it allows you

738
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: to do the old four man rush stuff that like

739
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: the Niners are doing a couple of years ago. But yeah,

740
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: clearly the Giants that they have to get creative. How

741
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 1: do you view Leonard Williams breakout year, Steve eleven and

742
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: a half sacks. I don't think the underlying metrics, you know,

743
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: define that all. You went from three sacks to eleven

744
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: and a half. I look at pressures and stuff. It doesn't,

745
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: you know, mix necessarily. And I've warned fans don't expect

746
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: that what digit sacks Again, it's just really tough for

747
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: defensive tackles to do. But how do you view the

748
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: breakout season for Williams and what the expectations should be

749
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: after he's gotten now his big long term contract. Yeah,

750
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: you know. I mean you've listened to us enough, John,

751
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 1: so you know you know the answers here. You know,

752
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: his pass rush grade for US has been extremely consistent.

753
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: He's graded between sixty five and seventy two as a

754
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: pass rusher. That's a good pass rush grade. And in NFL,

755
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: you know, sacks just they tend to fluctuate based off opportunities,

756
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,880
Speaker 1: based off what your teammates are doing. So yeah, I wouldn't.

757
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: I honestly don't think Leonard Williams as a pass rusher

758
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: has been any was any different last year than he

759
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: was the previous year. Um, he was the essentially the

760
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: same guy. And for lack of a better term, stumbled

761
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: into eleven and a half sacks. And that's not a

762
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: knock on Leonard Williams. He's a good, solid player. I'd

763
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: expect the same, and um, I encourage all our fans,

764
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: are your listeners, everybody to just not define him by

765
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: that one number to find him by you rushed the

766
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 1: past or five three times and craded thirty two hurries.

767
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: It's it's a good it's good, solid production for what

768
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: he's asked to do. But this year he could have

769
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 1: the same performance and stumble into five stacks. You know

770
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: that just the nature of it. So Leonard Williams has

771
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: been one of the most consistent players in the NFL

772
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: since coming in in two thousand fifteen. I see, two

773
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: are the big picture questions before we say goodbye? Did

774
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: you got We've been trying to figure out what coax

775
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 1: Dave Gentleman into trading back for the first time. You know,

776
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: the Daniel Jeremiah theory has been floated. Uh you know,

777
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: you know with the whole NASCAR left turn thing. May

778
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: maybe you guys managed to get him to Cincinnati and

779
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: like locked him in the room and talk to him

780
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: a little bit. You've always you guys have always liked

781
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,600
Speaker 1: his drafts and how he's evaluated Plage. You've always been

782
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: high on that. To be fair, what did you think

783
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: about his his draft this year and acquiring all those

784
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: extra picks and a couple of trade downs. Uh, it

785
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: was awesome. I mean to see some of those moves,

786
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think part of it is,

787
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: you know, he's the computer folks that he has that

788
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 1: he has hired. I think there's there's probably at least

789
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 1: some some influence and conversation there. Um. I think the

790
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,719
Speaker 1: trade down in round one was fantastic, you know, that

791
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: was it was smart. Um. I also think there's this

792
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: element of you don't you're they knew they weren't drafting

793
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 1: his quarterback, so you you have a little bit more

794
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: flexibility there, right, and and so a lot of it is,

795
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: you know, even if he's an old school scout so

796
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: to speak, you're still kind of play on your board.

797
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: If you're sitting there at ten and it's like, well,

798
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 1: I don't have a big difference between this guy and

799
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 1: that guy. I could take that chance and and trade down.

800
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: It's easier to do that when you don't need a quarterback.

801
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: So um, I think that, you know, and if you're

802
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: a Dave gentleman and overall you feel like you're a

803
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: good scout, you should feel good about I want to

804
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: trade down more, I want to take more shots that

805
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: and I'm good at this thing, you know. So I

806
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,800
Speaker 1: don't have a specific theory with it other than it

807
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: felt like they had He knows that they needed death, right.

808
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: This has been a multi year rebuild. You know, you

809
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: need more shots at it, and I think that just

810
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: kind of came to ahead this season. Alright, final question

811
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: giants in the context of the NFC East, if you

812
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: know last year was just a disaster in the division, Uh,

813
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: Washington want to buy default. Uh they won't enough games

814
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: and not say anything away from them, but we don't

815
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: finish five hundred. You win in division. It is what

816
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: it is, right, How do you view this division in

817
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 1: one where these teams are where they're heading. Is it

818
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,840
Speaker 1: as open as a field as it looks from the outside.

819
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: Your thoughts on the NFC East, Well, I think it's

820
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 1: gonna be better, you know. I think Washington has a

821
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 1: stabilizing factor in Ron Rivera. I think you saw that

822
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: they did not have a great roster going into last year,

823
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,720
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, it's like, Wow, Ron Rivera

824
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,120
Speaker 1: is you know, pretty good. He's elevated his teams throughout

825
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: his career. So I think they'll be, you know, just

826
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: a tough team year in year out, no matter what

827
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: happens with their roster. Dallas has to be better with

828
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: Dac and a lot of their offensive lineback, So Dallas

829
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 1: should be better. It's just a matter of their defense.

830
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: Can dan Quinn just get their defense back to just

831
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: the middle of the pack they were they were really

832
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 1: bad last year. Giants took a step forward obviously, everything

833
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 1: that we've talked about. Feel good about everything defensible, a

834
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,920
Speaker 1: lot of their defense, a lot of their playmakers. So

835
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: I think the Giants are right there in the mix.

836
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: And then the Eagles just feel the Eagles can go anyway.

837
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,879
Speaker 1: They just I know they're in the rebuild, right, I mean,

838
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 1: I know they're they're starting over. They feel like they're

839
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: starting from scratch. But if Jalen Hurts is legit, then

840
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they're dangerous. I don't I don't

841
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: know that that's going to happen, but I think, you know, Jalen,

842
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: when you have a quarterback that's gonna run the ball

843
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: as much as he does. It does kind of just

844
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: raise the floor of the team, so they feel like

845
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,439
Speaker 1: they're in the rebuild, but it doesn't mean they're gonna

846
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,279
Speaker 1: win three games. They could be a seven or eight

847
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: win team and still just be top. So I think

848
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: it's it's a much better division around, you know, all around,

849
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: if everybody stays healthy. I do think a lot of

850
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: those teams did get better or at least can maintain

851
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 1: status quo. So I think the division is much better

852
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: than it was a year ago, for sure. Steve, tell

853
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: the folks where they can find you. All the stuff

854
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: you guys do a PF, your subscriptions, anything else you

855
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: want to get out there for us. Yeah, So first off,

856
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: PF dot com all of our elite and edge subscriptions.

857
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: That's exactly what you need this offseason. Fantasy betting, just

858
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: overall NFL analysis PFF eleast the best one there. And

859
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 1: then the p f F NFL podcast, my co Ho

860
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: Stam and I we talked about all this stuff always,

861
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 1: you know, ranking the Giants thirty second, but giving you

862
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: the positive plants on their offensive line. It's all on

863
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: the p f F NFL Podcast. Make sure, you guys

864
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: go check it out, Steve. We love the work you

865
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: guys do. The data is tremendous. It gives great perspective.

866
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: Thanks so much of the time, my friend, you guy it.

867
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: Thank you, John, Steve palos Oh from Pro Football Focus

868
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 1: you thank you for joining us on the John Suttle Podcast.

869
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time, everybody. And by the way,

870
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: we record this last week, so there's a list out

871
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: we didn't talk about. That's why don't yell at me

872
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: on Twitter for Steve Hobschpelk. Will see you next time, everybody.