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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Incredible. I thought I had

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Speaker 1: misread when I learned convicted killer Jody Arius. Remember her?

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Speaker 1: Jody Arius stabbed her boyfriend Chavis Alexander. There's an argument

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Speaker 1: about how many times she stabbed him dead because there

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Speaker 1: were so many stab wounds close to thirty that they

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Speaker 1: were overlapping each other and you couldn't tell if it

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Speaker 1: was one stab or two or three, and then capped

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Speaker 1: it off by shooting him in the head, leaving him

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Speaker 1: to decompose in a showerstall. Why because he dared to

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Speaker 1: ask another woman on a date after a marathon sex

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Speaker 1: session with Arius. She just couldn't take it. Jody Arius

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Speaker 1: is selling her artwork for one thousands. One of her

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Speaker 1: pieces of art is going for let me check this,

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Speaker 1: Maybe I need glasses for twenty five hundred dollars nearly

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Speaker 1: three thousand dollars. Hey, you know she's just getting a

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Speaker 1: magazine and tracing over it. Right that said, have you

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Speaker 1: ever heard of blood money? I need see Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: A WorldWind romance between aspiring photographer Jody Arius and salesman

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Speaker 2: Travis Alexander turns sour the explosive pair is on and

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Speaker 2: off again, but this time Travis swears they're done for good.

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Speaker 1: And there's a reason. He swore to his friends he

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Speaker 1: was done with her for good. When we say a stalker,

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Speaker 1: we normally picture a husband or boyfriend and ex looking

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Speaker 1: in your wind, calling you non stop, following you around,

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Speaker 1: putting a GPS tracker on your vehicle. You don't normally

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Speaker 1: think of a woman. Jody are areas like Jody Arias

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Speaker 1: as being a stalker. But oh boy, she was a stalker.

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Speaker 1: And then some you don't believe me. Listen, what's going on?

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Speaker 3: A friend of ours is dead in his bedroom. We

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Speaker 3: hadn't heard from him for a while. We think he's dead.

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Speaker 3: His roommates just going in there, and so they bought

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Speaker 3: some blood. I didn't go in, but I can give

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Speaker 3: you this songe to someone who went in there.

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Speaker 4: Can yes, please?

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Speaker 5: Can you hello?

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Speaker 6: Hi? What's going on?

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Speaker 1: He's dead? He's in his bedroom in the shower.

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Speaker 4: Okay, how did this happen?

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Speaker 7: Do you have any idea?

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Speaker 1: We have no idea.

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Speaker 3: Everyone's been wondering about.

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Speaker 8: Him for a few days.

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Speaker 5: She said that there's blood, so is it coming from

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Speaker 5: his head?

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Speaker 1: Did he.

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Speaker 7: It's all over with me.

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Speaker 1: Renowned expert Joseph Scott Morgan, death investigator who has conducted

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Speaker 1: thousands of death investigations, be the natural causes accidents, suicide

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Speaker 1: or homicide. Author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: and start of a Hitting You series podcast Body Bags

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Speaker 1: with Joseph Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, You and I went

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Speaker 1: round and around and round about how many times Travick's

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Speaker 1: Alexander was murdered, and we're about to do it again.

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Speaker 1: It's a rematch. But one thing you said at the

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Speaker 1: time of the murder that's stuck with me and I'll

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Speaker 1: never forget it. You described some drops. I don't mean throwback,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean a transfer drops of blood on Travis

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Speaker 1: Alexander's sink the way you described it. I had so

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Speaker 1: many wounds, but these were drops, like around circular drops.

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Speaker 1: And you described how he would have looked into his

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Speaker 1: bathroom mirror and seeing himself dying, hit.

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Speaker 5: The nail on the head. Nancy, and I remember this

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Speaker 5: after all these years thinking back to this, you know

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Speaker 5: those droplets that you're referring to are in fact some

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Speaker 5: are droplets. But Nancy, here's the really ghastly thing about this.

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Speaker 5: Many of these are projected droplets, and it's what's referred

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Speaker 5: to as bloody aspirit. And I'm going to break that

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Speaker 5: down for you, just so people can understand what this

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Speaker 5: man went through after he was initially attacked in the shower.

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Speaker 5: He is aware of this. He leans over the seineking

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Speaker 5: see the contact, the contact points where his hands were

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Speaker 5: on the sink. He's leaning forward looking himself in the mirror,

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Speaker 5: and Nancy, he aspirated blood down into his airway and

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Speaker 5: spit it back out, So he's aspirating blowing it out,

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Speaker 5: and you get these fine little dots of blood that

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Speaker 5: were all all over the place at this point in time.

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Speaker 5: And it's a horrible event to imagine. This guy's just

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Speaker 5: taking a shower. Can you imagine suddenly you're getting stabbed

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Speaker 5: in the back by this demon and name Jon And.

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Speaker 1: You know he was found decomposing in the shower. But

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at the sink and I will never forget

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Speaker 1: this photo. And if you look to the left of

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Speaker 1: the faucet, toward the front of the sink, you see

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Speaker 1: two of the dropped drops you were describing. And then

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Speaker 1: if you go right, you see another drop. Now it's

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Speaker 1: amazing to me that you, as a death scene investigator,

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Speaker 1: could distinguish the difference between those drops and all the

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Speaker 1: other blood. But now that you told me about it,

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Speaker 1: I see it. I'm looking up at the stars and

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Speaker 1: if you don't know what you're doing, you can't see

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Speaker 1: the constellations. Looking at this blood tells a story, and

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Speaker 1: you can even determine which blood was aspiration. In other words,

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Speaker 1: he was bleeding. When he breathed out of his mouth

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Speaker 1: or nose, you would get a fine spray, especially from

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Speaker 1: the nose of blood.

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Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, you're absolutely right with this, Nancy, and he

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Speaker 5: would be bearing witness to this. This is one of

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Speaker 5: the issues with me, after we've covered this for so

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Speaker 5: many years. He's actually eyeballing himself in the mirror. He

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Speaker 5: has not lost his sight, his ability to see. If

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Speaker 5: you can imagine, he's slowly bleeding out, he has an

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Speaker 5: awareness he's getting lightheaded, but he's also regurgitating blood and

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Speaker 5: blowing it out. At the same time, you've got passive droplets,

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Speaker 5: which like a bloody nose, kind of dropped downward, and

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Speaker 5: then you have these projected droplets that are very far

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Speaker 5: hold on.

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Speaker 1: Scott it's just I compare it to the scene and

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Speaker 1: arson where accelerant is used. You can tell where the

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Speaker 1: fire started because you'll see excellerant or you'll see the major,

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Speaker 1: major portion of the burning, the most destruction in that

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Speaker 1: spot where the fire started. And here in the shower,

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Speaker 1: that's where we see an abundance of blood. So would

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Speaker 1: you agree that's where it started or what would you

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Speaker 1: what do you think?

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Speaker 5: Well, what you're seeing here is passive blood flow and

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Speaker 5: a lot of this is decomposing as well. But draw

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Speaker 5: your attention to the right aspect to the shower wall.

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Speaker 5: There when he was placed into that shower, that's actually

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Speaker 5: probably where his shoulder was resting, that kind of swipe

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Speaker 5: that you have right there, and then the settling of

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Speaker 5: the dark blood headed down the drain. That's a combination

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Speaker 5: of the seepage of the blood and also combination of

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Speaker 5: decompositional fluid. She left this guy to literally decompose in

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Speaker 5: his own bathroom, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: There are very few people that can follow an explanation

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Speaker 1: by Joe Scott Morgan. But before I go to Andy Cohn,

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Speaker 1: I want you to hear what pops up immediately in

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Speaker 1: the nine one one call.

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Speaker 4: You're a good friend of Travis's. Okay, Has he been depressed.

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Speaker 6: At all thinking about any suicide anything like that.

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Speaker 4: I don't think he'd been community to say he's been

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Speaker 4: really depressed because he broke up with this girl and

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Speaker 4: he was allset about that, But I don't think he

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Speaker 4: would actually kill himself over that.

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Speaker 1: Has he been threatened by anyone recently?

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Speaker 4: Who he has? He has an ex girlfriend that's been

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Speaker 4: bothering him and following him and flashing tires and things

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 1: As you know, the ex girlfriend's name.

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Speaker 3: His her name is Jody.

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Speaker 1: And there you go, right then, and the nine to

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Speaker 1: one one called doctor Bethany Marshall. There you're hearing doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, renown psycho analyst, joining us out of la

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Speaker 1: at Dr Bethany Marshall dot com. She appears in the

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Speaker 1: show Paris in Love on Peacock. She's everywhere. Her book

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Speaker 1: deal Breaker, When to work on a relationship and when

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Speaker 1: to walk away, specifically pertinent to today's material, today's case. I

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Speaker 1: cannot believe this woman is selling artwork for nearly three

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars per sketch. That's a whole nother cannel can

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Speaker 1: I talk to you about the stalking. Remember those photos

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Speaker 1: of Jody Arias warning everybody just go ahead and buckle

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Speaker 1: your seat belt. The jury saw this, as did I.

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Speaker 1: Jody aria is all sprawled down. I can't remember she

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Speaker 1: had on underwear or was naked, but anyway, on his

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Speaker 1: bed they had Oh dep is that her I had

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Speaker 1: to turn upside down? Is that the day of the

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Speaker 1: marathon sex session. There's some a lot more racy than that. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: she has a marathon sex session with Travis Alexander, not judging,

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Speaker 1: don't care. But it's only after all day in the

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Speaker 1: South that she says, so you're still taking that woman

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Speaker 1: to CanKan on that trip? He goes, yeah, these two

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Speaker 1: were broken up. She had no right to demand he

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Speaker 1: not date other people. They were broken up over her stocking,

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Speaker 1: slashing his tires, showing up at his house, leaving cinnabon

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Speaker 1: on his car at five o'clock in the morning, under

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Speaker 1: the pretext of getting him breakfast bs. She's trying to

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Speaker 1: find out he might spend the night over at his place.

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Speaker 1: He goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 8: Bethany, you know, Nancy, he's doing what.

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Speaker 1: Abuse victims do.

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Speaker 8: He's welcoming the abuser right back into the home because

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Speaker 8: she convinces him that she's not going to hurt him.

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Speaker 8: So all of this marathon sex. She probably has borderline

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Speaker 8: sociopathic personality disorder, and women who are borderline you was

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Speaker 8: sex to hook the other person in to have control

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Speaker 8: over them. She probably had what we call merger fantasies

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Speaker 8: in my feet. This is somebody who's so disturbed they

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Speaker 8: want to merge into the love object. They want to

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Speaker 8: be one with that person. Any separation between them and

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Speaker 8: that person, even if that person picks up the phone

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Speaker 8: or calls their mother or goes away with somebody else,

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Speaker 8: feels like a under abandonment and a betrayal. And when

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Speaker 8: they feel abandoned, they feel deflated. And when they feel deflated,

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Speaker 8: they become enraged. Women with orderline personality disorder, they have

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Speaker 8: this oceanic rage that leads to plotting and planning, and

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Speaker 8: plotting and planning. She was probably planning this for a

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Speaker 8: long long time, and I'm imagining that marathon sex session.

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Speaker 8: She probably thought that they had an unique and special relationship,

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Speaker 8: that he was going to come back to her, and

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Speaker 8: then when he was honest, which I admired him for

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Speaker 8: and said, I'm going on this vacation. She just snapped.

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Speaker 8: Her emotions outpaced her ability to think. What's interesting about

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Speaker 8: the sand you just played. The roommates knew that Jody

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Speaker 8: Arius was going to do this. Remember that party, Nancy,

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Speaker 8: We all covered this where they were all hanging out,

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Speaker 8: I think at the apartment and she either had her

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Speaker 8: head in his lap or his legs across his lap.

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Speaker 8: They say she was marking her territory. She belonged to

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Speaker 8: her and nobody else in her mind.

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Speaker 1: And it's always amazing to me that people can name

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Speaker 1: the killer in the nine on one call. It's like

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Speaker 1: everybody knows. Of course that's not evidence, can't come in

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Speaker 1: as evidence. But when I have ten people saying she

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Speaker 1: did it, I listen crime stories with Nancy Grace joining

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Speaker 1: me right now. Is a very special guest, a longtime

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Speaker 1: colleague that has become a friend. And as weird as

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Speaker 1: it may sound, we bonded over toenails, not his toenails,

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Speaker 1: not my toenails, but the toenails of on Hell on

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Speaker 1: Hell Ramirez. Correct, wasn't that his name? Or on Hell

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Speaker 1: Resendez Ramirez. What I know is he's a serial killer

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Speaker 1: selling his toenails from behind bars and people actually paid

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Speaker 1: for it. When you told me that, I said a

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Speaker 1: technical legal term BS, I don't know, come to my office.

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Speaker 1: I followed you, and your office at that time was

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Speaker 1: like a treasure show trope. Now let me say a

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Speaker 1: Pandora's box, okay of evils of all these people around

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Speaker 1: the country that were selling murder rebelia and you you

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Speaker 1: coined that phrase. I stole it, but you made that

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Speaker 1: up and now oh Arius is doing it.

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Speaker 9: Yeah. I mean, you had this giant industry that's sprung

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Speaker 9: up primarily from the Internet, in which you have serial killers,

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Speaker 9: mass murders, school shooters, high profile killers like Yoda Areas

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Speaker 9: who like it or not, has a big name, she

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Speaker 9: has a following, and they have found a way to

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Speaker 9: continue to enable their narcissistic behavior. I mean, obviously she

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Speaker 9: has a giant ego and she is simply selling her artwork.

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Speaker 9: No one should be able to rob, rape, and murder

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Speaker 9: then turn around and make a buck off it.

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Speaker 7: I don't care.

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Speaker 9: You know, if you're a firm believer in capitalism or whatever,

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Speaker 9: this is where you've got to draw the line and

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Speaker 9: the buck has to stop here. You cannot continue to

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Speaker 9: allow a convicted murderer to essentially operate a business behind

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Speaker 9: prison bars. I'm just absolutely shocked because most of the time,

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Speaker 9: in my research and dealings, most of the time prisons

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Speaker 9: are not aware that a particular inmate is selling their

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Speaker 9: goods through third parties. But the Arizona Department the Corrections

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Speaker 9: is completely complicit because they're aware of it, and they're

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Speaker 9: just shrugging their shoulders saying, there's nothing we can do

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Speaker 9: to quote you, Nancy. That's bs because most prisons have

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Speaker 9: policies in the prison that state you cannot operate a

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Speaker 9: business unless you have their permission.

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Speaker 1: I cannot believe.

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Speaker 9: That the Arizona Department of Corrections would give their permission

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Speaker 9: to allow Jody Arius to profit from killing Travis Alexander.

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Speaker 9: That is absolutely absurd. I've not seen that in my

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Speaker 9: twenty five years of researching this industry.

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Speaker 8: His bedroom is ware in the house.

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Speaker 3: It's upstairs, and if you go up the stairs, it's

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Speaker 3: on the left. It's the first door on your left.

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Speaker 3: It's the only door on your left, okay, and it's

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Speaker 3: just a big master sweet paging that day.

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Speaker 10: And.

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Speaker 3: She's talking to his friend right now and there's a

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Speaker 3: girl that sends stocking him and then and she's trying

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Speaker 3: and he's trying to, uh, you might know with some information.

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Speaker 3: I hope my phone doesn't. I'm on like one bar

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Speaker 3: of battery.

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Speaker 4: Okay, Well, I'm just going to keep you on the

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Speaker 4: phone until.

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Speaker 3: Officers are right, either officers or pyramids arrive. Okay, okay,

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Speaker 3: I think I can hear the same.

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Speaker 11: Where he is.

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Speaker 2: Travis Alexander. Friends haven't heard from him for days. They're

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Speaker 2: supposed to take off for Cancun in only a matter

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Speaker 2: of hours, but Travis is nowhere to be found.

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Speaker 1: What happened to Travis Alexander we know now his then

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Speaker 1: lover spurned, who had been stalking him, murdered him in

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Speaker 1: a brutal fashion. The brutality I've seen a lot of murders,

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Speaker 1: and the murder Travis Alexander is one of the most

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Speaker 1: brutal murders I've ever seen. Now she's selling her artwork online. Wait,

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Speaker 1: this is her artwork, not mine. Here you go. There's

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Speaker 1: a lady straddling a man. I'm not the church lady.

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Speaker 1: I don't care, but I don't like Arias making money

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Speaker 1: off of it. Take a look at her. Oh, there's

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Speaker 1: a self portrait at PERivale prison. Guess that's what she thinks.

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Speaker 1: She looks like, Okay, there you go. I didn't know

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Speaker 1: they had fingernail polish. But behind bars see the nature

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Speaker 1: of her art. Check it out Jody Arius's art work.

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Speaker 1: Now you heard Andy Kahn joining us saying that the

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Speaker 1: jail is turning a blind eye. And I agree. She's

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Speaker 1: not creating art for her own enjoyment or fulfillment. She's

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Speaker 1: creating it to sell it. Now what she's doing the

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Speaker 1: money that, I don't know, but she is selling this

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Speaker 1: art and it is blood money. What happened? Listen to this.

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Speaker 12: I was actually watching a movie with my girlfriend at

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Speaker 12: the time or my wife now, and.

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Speaker 11: I remember getting a knock on my door and.

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Speaker 12: Travis's friends came to the door and they said, have

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Speaker 12: you seen Travis? And I said, well, no, I haven't

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Speaker 12: seen Travis. He's supposed to be in CanCon or out

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Speaker 12: on vacation right now. And they said, yes he is,

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Speaker 12: but he's supposed to be here with me with Mimi,

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Speaker 12: And so I said, well, have you checked his bedroom?

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Speaker 11: And that was my first thought.

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Speaker 12: So they said, well, no, we have in the doors locked,

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Speaker 12: and I said, I think he keeps a spare set

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Speaker 12: of keys downstairs.

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Speaker 11: So I went downstairs and I searched for him.

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Speaker 12: And grabbed a few sets of keys and came back

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Speaker 12: upstairs and tried a few different sets of keys, and

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Speaker 12: one of them happened to be his bedroom key.

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Speaker 11: And as soon as the door was opened, my heart

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Speaker 11: just seeing.

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Speaker 1: And listen to more of what Travis's friend Zach billings

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Speaker 1: tennels me.

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Speaker 12: She came up to me and gave me a big

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Speaker 12: hug and just said, I'm you know, isn't this just horrible?

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Speaker 12: I'm so sorry you had to go through that. And

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Speaker 12: she asked me where I was living at the time,

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Speaker 12: and that was about the extent of our interaction after

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Speaker 12: that point.

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Speaker 1: Did she ask you any questions regarding your discovery of

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Speaker 1: the body?

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Speaker 12: She asked me, just a brief of what happened, as

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Speaker 12: far as my interaction with as far as my interaction

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Speaker 12: with anybody else. Had the police talk to me? And

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Speaker 12: she already knew at that point that I had seen

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Speaker 12: the body, and just asked what the process was going through,

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Speaker 12: what I was going through.

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Speaker 1: Joining me now. Susan Hendricks, investigative journalist, author of a

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Speaker 1: brand new book, Down the Hill Mine Descent to the

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Speaker 1: double murder in Delvi. Susan, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: Explain to me where is Jody Arius and how is

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Speaker 1: she enabled to sell her art for a profit online?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Nancy, good to be here. I couldn't believe it

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Speaker 6: when I heard it. And I remember covering with you

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Speaker 6: the Jody Arias trial day in and day out, and

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Speaker 6: the day she was called to that stand, and everything

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Speaker 6: she said on the stand. I put nothing past her,

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Speaker 6: revictimizing his family has seven siblings, over and over again.

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Speaker 6: Remember this, Nancy, the headstand. I would put nothing past her.

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Speaker 6: I also remember her walking in claiming she was an

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Speaker 6: abuse victim, holding up a T shirt that said survivor

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Speaker 6: on it, then begging the jurors for her life, and

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Speaker 6: showing a slide show of her artwork. So I put

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Speaker 6: nothing past her. I just wish she would donate the

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Speaker 6: money to the family members of Travis. I remember her saying,

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Speaker 6: I'll help people, please spare my life. I'll do good.

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Speaker 6: And well, what is she doing that's so good except

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Speaker 6: benefiting herself off the murder of.

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Speaker 1: Travis and Susan having a string of love lorn men

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Speaker 1: trying to get her affection. Why I do not know,

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Speaker 1: but I guarantee you this much. They all send her money.

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Speaker 1: Derek Smith joining me high profile criminal defense attorney and

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Speaker 1: you can find him it d WS. D W Smith Legal,

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Speaker 1: repeat d W Smith Legal. Derek, you know your way

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Speaker 1: around the courtroom. What and the hate went wrong? Because

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess you have to play the cards.

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Speaker 1: That's delcha because her attorney and I've spoke many many times.

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Speaker 1: At first she claimed she had no idea what happened,

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Speaker 1: what I wasn't there. Then she was tracked across the desert.

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Speaker 1: She actually filled up big tanks of gas put them

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Speaker 1: in her trunk so she would be spotted at a

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Speaker 1: gas station. She goes all the way across the desert

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Speaker 1: to get to Travis Alexander. She gets there, then she

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Speaker 1: waits for it. Derek Smith, I could just see you

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Speaker 1: doing a backflip when you find out about this elence

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Speaker 1: it it's your client. She had a digital camera that

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Speaker 1: she was using to take naughty photos off herself during

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Speaker 1: their sex marathon, and Ding Dong put it in the

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Speaker 1: washing machine. The digitkam and the cops find it and

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Speaker 1: guess what it survived, and they actually see a picture

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Speaker 1: of her foot and leg in the photo, and then

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Speaker 1: those clothes she was wearing in that photo are traced

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Speaker 1: back to her. So first she says, I went there.

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Speaker 1: I don't know anything about it. Then the digikim shows

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Speaker 1: up in the washer and she goes, okay, I was

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Speaker 1: there and two ninjas. I think it was too just

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Speaker 1: all in black. Of course for dramatic flare broke in,

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Speaker 1: they kill him, I run for it. And then by

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Speaker 1: the end she climbed, Oh it was self defense. What

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Speaker 1: do you do with that? Derek Smith?

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Speaker 13: Oh, you've seen this many times before, dealing with you know,

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Speaker 13: victims and on the prosecutorial side, and of course on

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Speaker 13: the defensive side, stories change all the time. When you

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Speaker 13: have just mountains of evidence against the defendant, in this

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Speaker 13: case self preservation. You know, the first thing is deny, deny, deny,

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Speaker 13: and then the second thing is okay, I'm caught.

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Speaker 8: How am I going to get out of this?

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Speaker 13: And you can tell the rabbit hole that these defendants

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Speaker 13: dig themselves deeper and deeper, and then once they get

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Speaker 13: to me or someone.

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Speaker 8: Like me on the defense, what are we going to do?

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Speaker 13: You've already pretty much buried yourself, and all we can

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Speaker 13: do is try to mitigate at this point, you know,

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Speaker 13: work with the prosecution, work with you know, the detectives,

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Speaker 13: the police officers, and I mean they do a good

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Speaker 13: enough job to find this evidence that these defendants think, Hey,

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Speaker 13: I'm smarter than them. I'm going to be able to,

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Speaker 13: like you say, throw this but it's in the washing

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Speaker 13: machine and the driver get rid of it. No, sorry,

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Speaker 13: it doesn't work like that. Our detectives in our law

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Speaker 13: enforcement are much better than the defendants.

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Speaker 1: Derek Smith is joining US high profile lawyer in Ohio's

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Speaker 1: tried a lot of cases. Is at d W Smith

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Speaker 1: Legal dot com. Derek, can I just get you to

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Speaker 1: confess to a common defense tactic, and that is you say, no, no,

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Speaker 1: we had nothing to do with it, and you're kind

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Speaker 1: of stalling waiting to see what the state's evidence is

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Speaker 1: going to be. And then let's just pretend you find

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Speaker 1: a fingerprint. Then you go, okay, yeah, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I was there, but not the day of the murder.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, I was dating him, and so my fingerprints

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Speaker 1: are all over that place, all right. Then you find

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Speaker 1: out about the digikim with the date and the time

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Speaker 1: stamp on it. Then you say something like oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not my digit caam. Then you see her face

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Speaker 1: on it, and you know, okay, that is my digitcam.

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Speaker 1: But those pictures were from a different time and obviously

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Speaker 1: the time and date stamp are wrong. Okay, then that's

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Speaker 1: disproved that. I mean, do you tailor your defense based

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Speaker 1: on the state's evidence as in Unfolds?

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Speaker 13: Of course, you know that. I mean, ideally, we tell

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Speaker 13: our clients not to speak. They have a right to

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Speaker 13: not talk. The more they talk, generally, the more they

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Speaker 13: can damage the case. It is our job as defense

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Speaker 13: attorneys to sort through the evidence to make sure that

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Speaker 13: everything was done constitutionally, and then speak with our clients

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Speaker 13: to figure out, you know what, how did this evidence

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Speaker 13: get there? How are your fingerprints there? Why are these

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Speaker 13: videos of you there? And then Taylor defense accordingly, Andrew.

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Speaker 11: How did this happen?

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Speaker 1: Do you have any idea?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that girlfriend's been bothering him. He's following him and

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Speaker 4: shouting hired and things like that.

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Speaker 3: There is a Jill that sends doctor who he's bringing

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Speaker 3: to Jody.

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Speaker 1: And now Jody Arius who stabbed Travis Alexander unarmed Travis

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Speaker 1: Alexander while he's in the shower. Joe Scott, what's your

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Speaker 1: final tally? Now, after many discussions with me about how

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Speaker 1: many times he was.

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Speaker 5: Stabbed, it has to me at least thirty. It's hard,

435
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 5: it's indeterminate, but there's injuries you're missing here, Nancy, if

436
00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 5: you want to go down this brutal road, he wasn't

437
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,360
Speaker 5: just stabbed. He had his throat cut from ear to ear.

438
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,399
Speaker 5: Oh and by the way, I don't know folks notice this,

439
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 5: but those pictures of his ankles, I've often held that

440
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 5: while he was trying to escape from her, when he's

441
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 5: in that hallway, that little walkway there, she stomped on

442
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 5: this man's ankles while he was there to try to

443
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 5: keep him down. Oh and by the way, if that

444
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 5: wasn't enough, she takes a pistol and after he's dead.

445
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 5: And I still hold that this was a postmortem shot,

446
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 5: because there's no hemorrhage in the wound track, she shot

447
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 5: him in the head and then drags him back to

448
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 5: the shower and leaves like the coward.

449
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 11: That she was.

450
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 1: I started to comment on one of the aspects of

451
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: your answer, but just the brutality, the brutality that she

452
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: inflicted upon him, and now she wants us to buy

453
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: her art and line her pockets. I don't know what

454
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: she's Susan Hendricks joining US investigative journalist and author. What

455
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: does she spend it on?

456
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 6: I know I was wondering that too. At first I

457
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 6: thought it maybe would fall under the son of Sam law,

458
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 6: but maybe because it's not directly connected to the crime.

459
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: But it's just horrific.

460
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 6: I wonder if she has that money and has extra

461
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 6: I don't know, commissary some money in prison to do

462
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 6: what she wants to do. And I did hear that

463
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 6: one of the guards even bought one of them of

464
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 6: the cow I believe.

465
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:09,800
Speaker 8: So it's just it's.

466
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: Yes, I was reading about that. I think one of

467
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: the guards quote inspired it because under her prince she

468
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,879
Speaker 1: explains what inspired the art. Okay, everybody get your barf

469
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: bag ready, because not only is she quite the artiste

470
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 1: making a lot of money, she's also a singer. Now

471
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 1: hold on, let's see if she hits the high note. Listen, oh.

472
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 8: Angels, oh no.

473
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: Dee bite.

474
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 6: When Christ was.

475
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:52,760
Speaker 8: Oh no.

476
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 9: Dee.

477
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: I guess she hit it in a way. To you,

478
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: Andy Kahn, this woman, this woman think about it, Andy,

479
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: looks are deceiving. Have you seen that string of photos

480
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: that are being shown of her looking really pretty? She's

481
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 1: not really pretty because the way I imagine her, the

482
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: way I envisioned her, is the truth of her leaving

483
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: the scene of the murder literally dripping and blood, and

484
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: then hopping in a car as the blood dried under

485
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: her fingernails, and driving to the next lover where she

486
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: literally hopped on him and straddled him, which is evocative

487
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: of one of her photo one of her paintings so called.

488
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: I mean, just.

489
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 9: What, Here's what's missing from this, Travis Alexander. This is

490
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 9: all about Jody Arius. Can you imagine what family members

491
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 9: friends of Rabs Alexander are now going through. It is

492
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 9: probably one of the most nauseating and disgusting feelings in

493
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 9: the world when you find out the person who murdered

494
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 9: your loved one now has items being hot on the

495
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 9: world Wide Web for pure profit, simply because she murdered him.

496
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 9: That is the only reason why she is relevant. And

497
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 9: all this does is feeds into her insatiable ego for

498
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 9: the life of me Arizona Department of Corrections and I

499
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 9: hope you hear me loudly and clearly. You have powers.

500
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 9: She is an inmate in your prison. How in that

501
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 9: hell can you allow her to ship out artwork and

502
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 9: have prison guards also coming abye for visits, commenting and

503
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 9: buying her artwork. Shame on you, Arizona Department of Corrections,

504
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 9: because you're the one that's allowing her to continue to

505
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 9: feel relevant by having her name in the public. And

506
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 9: why we're doing this show, I don't care. You just

507
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 9: shouldn't be able to rob, rape and murder and turn

508
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 9: around and make a buck off. It's that simplistic. And

509
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 9: Jodi eras this should be the last time we talk

510
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 9: about her.

511
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: I know for a fact, Andy that the jail, the prison,

512
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: the CI Correctional Institute in which she's being held does

513
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 1: know about her artwork. I mean, if you can believe

514
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: anything she says, and I guess you got to take

515
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: it with a box assault because she writes underneath the

516
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: cow painting, an officer interested in the painting's progress kept

517
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: asking how it was coming along. She said it several

518
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: times and it.

519
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 9: Years ago when jeff Years ago, when Jeffrey Dahmer was

520
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 9: killed in prison, a prison guard cleaned out his prison

521
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 9: well and then sold his shaving kit online. That prison

522
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 9: guard was fired.

523
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: You know, we're looking at so called artwork. I think

524
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: what she does is gets stock photos and then traces them.

525
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: But that said, what more do we know, Sysan Hendricks.

526
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: I know that she also stated that she gets hungry

527
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: behind bars and wants more commissary money. I know that

528
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: she has a long list of lonely hearts that write

529
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: her and she strings them along. They also send her money.

530
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, who cares most about Jody is Jody Arius And

531
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 6: she's able, maybe because of the way she looks. Her

532
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 6: demeanor very different than the monstrous crime scene that we saw,

533
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 6: and she's able, it appears to get what she wants,

534
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 6: saying please. I remember during the trial she didn't want

535
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 6: the death sentence. At first she did, then she didn't

536
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 6: say please, don't do this. My family will hurt, projecting

537
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 6: onto them. Meanwhile, all she cares about is herself and benefiting.

538
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 6: She's hungry in prison, eat prison food. I'm sorry, that's

539
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 6: what a convicted murderer should eat, not benefiting and having

540
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 6: the families hurt. Once again, she seems to get away

541
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 6: with a whole lot even in prison.

542
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:11,040
Speaker 2: A WorldWind Romance between aspiring photographer Jody Arius and salesman

543
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: Travis Alexander turns sour. The explosive pair is on and

544
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 2: off again, but this time Travis swears they're done for good.

545
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: Joining me renown psychoanalyst doctor Bethany Marshall joining us from

546
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: La not only author but also appears regularly in Paris

547
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 1: in Love on Peacock. Doctor Bethany listened to this.

548
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 7: You would complain about her, you know, little things here

549
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 7: and there. He never told me about the big things.

550
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 7: Because if he told me about the big things, like

551
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 7: flashing his tires and stealing things from his house, you know,

552
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 7: I would have been like I told you, did I

553
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 7: tell you?

554
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 6: Didn't?

555
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 7: I tell you? She was nuts? So he wouldn't. He

556
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 7: would never tell me about the big like really violating

557
00:33:58,520 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 7: psychotic things.

558
00:33:59,440 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 11: That she was.

559
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: Now you're hearing Travis's roommate Chris Hugh speaking to me.

560
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: Listen to more.

561
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 7: He was saying things to her like, you hurt me

562
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 7: worse than the passing of my own father. You're a

563
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 7: terrible person, You're despicable, You're the devil daughter. I mean,

564
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 7: he was so angry about something and we don't know

565
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 7: what exactie what that was. She just sat there and

566
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 7: took it. And later she comes back online and says

567
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 7: two things that you're wrong about. I didn't steal your

568
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 7: journals and I didn't slash your tires. She didn't defend

569
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 7: herself against all the other things that he said about her.

570
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 7: And when I saw that, I just said to myself,

571
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 7: you know what, that's her trying to cover up for

572
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 7: what she's about.

573
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: To do to doctor Bethany. Apparently the roommates noticed that

574
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 1: she would follow him to the bathroom, that she would

575
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 1: then when he would go to the restroom, she would

576
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: follow him out of the room and then go and

577
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: rifle through his stuff in his bedroom. Eves drop on

578
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: his car conversations. I mean, it never ended with this woman.

579
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 8: You know, Nancy. She was pathologically jealous. That's why she

580
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 8: killed him because she knew he was about to go

581
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 8: on the vacation with another woman. So she was rifling

582
00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 8: through all of his journals because she wanted to get intel.

583
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 8: She wanted to get information. You know, she may have

584
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 8: stopped or even contacted the other women. You know, she

585
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 8: manipulated him with sex before she killed him. And I

586
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 8: see this artwork as one big manipulation to the public.

587
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 8: She minimizes the painous nature of what she did. The

588
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 8: cow is in a pastoral scene. She looks like she's

589
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 8: on vacation behind prison bars with this cute little bucket

590
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 8: cap and you know, madging orange shirt. In one scene

591
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 8: she's walking into like almost like a Mendeala type setting

592
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 8: that's very spiritual. She looks like Barbie in another picture.

593
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 8: And she also cares skulls with flowers. Now I know

594
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 8: that sort of.

595
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 14: View of Del Martees, which is very typical if that

596
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 14: selebration in Latin America.

597
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 8: However, when you pair flowers.

598
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 14: With a skull, it's like your favorite phrase, my favorite

599
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 14: phrase that you always say, dancing putting perfume on the pig.

600
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 14: It's really minimizing what a skull looks like and what

601
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,359
Speaker 14: gets a person to the point where their flesh has

602
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 14: decomposed and they are nothing on a skull.

603
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 8: So she's turning the heinous nature of the crime into

604
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 8: its opposite, like it's just rainbows and unicorns. And I

605
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 8: think that even seeing a Christmas ham, which happens to

606
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 8: be one of my favorites, that's really manipulative, as she's

607
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 8: like choir girl. So look at that picture right there,

608
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 8: doesn't that have a spiritual quality? Like she's just the

609
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 8: most spiritual person on the baby plant.

610
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: You know what's really crazy is everybody seemed to know

611
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 1: what Areas was up to, including Travis Alexander.

612
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 7: Listen, guy, passionately, you're saying, Travis, you'll understand, I think

613
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 7: she's dangerous, and he was saying dangerously kidding she wouldn't

614
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 7: hurt a fly, You guys, she's so sweet, she's so nice,

615
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 7: and right as he's defending her, Sky put her finger

616
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 7: to her lips just to tell us to be quiet,

617
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 7: and then she pointed at the door and she lips

618
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 7: she's out there, and Travis rips the door open, and

619
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 7: there's Jodyarius with her face to the door, listening to

620
00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 7: our conversation at midnight upstairs on the opposite end of

621
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 7: the house.

622
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 11: Where he is.

623
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 2: Travis Alexander friends haven't heard from him for days. They're

624
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:36,840
Speaker 2: supposed to take off for Cancun in only a matter

625
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 2: of hours, but Travis is nowhere to be found.

626
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: There were so many aerie warnings from friends and family

627
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: about what was to come. Listen, and we caught her again.

628
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 7: I said, Travis's case in point bro, Like, that's what

629
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 7: I'm talking about.

630
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 6: Who does that?

631
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 7: Who does that? Normal people don't do that. If you

632
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 7: don't get it, there's nothing I mean, there's nothing more

633
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 7: I can do. But what guy said was she said, Travis,

634
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 7: we're afraid we're going to find you chopped up in

635
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 7: her freezer joining me.

636
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 1: Andy Kahn, director of Victims Services at Crime Stoppers in Houston. Andy,

637
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 1: how many times have we seen murder victims where their

638
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,439
Speaker 1: friends and family would say, you got to get out

639
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: of this. She he is going to kill you, or

640
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: murder victims that before they died said if I go missing, Hey,

641
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: she did it.

642
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 10: I just worked on a case where we had a

643
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 10: young woman that ended up getting stuffed and refrigerator by

644
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 10: her then husband who actually put out, if I go missing,

645
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 10: he is the one that is.

646
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 8: Basically going to kill me.

647
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 9: And she sent out so many warning signals on that.

648
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 9: So when other people start to recognize warning signals, I

649
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 9: think you got to pretty start stating taking it seriously

650
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 9: because they're the ones who actually see the truth picture. Unfortunately,

651
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 9: you know, Travis perhaps might have been caught this little

652
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 9: france or whatever with her, but the real story about

653
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 9: this right now is how in the heck can Joey

654
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 9: Areas sit in a prison cell paint, draw, scratch, smith, doodle, whatever,

655
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 9: and then ship items out to be sold on the

656
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 9: open market. And the only reason people buy them is

657
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 9: because she's received some higher proficiency because she is a

658
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 9: high profile killer, without anybody thinking about who she killed,

659
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 9: why she's in prison. And I'm sorry, but you just

660
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 9: you should be able to profit from committing crimes, especially murdered.

661
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 9: It's that simplistic. And why that's the First Amendment allowed

662
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 9: to happen is beyond my comprehension.

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00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: To Derek Smith, high profile criminal defense attorney joining us

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00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: out of Ohio. Why are inmates criminals allowed to profit

665
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: from their crimes?

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00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 13: Well, Nancy, in a lot of states, they're not. This

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00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 13: goes back to something we said earlier, the Son of

668
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 13: Sam law that originated from the David Berkowitz murders in

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00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 13: New York, that was brought up on First Amendment all

670
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 13: the way up to the Supreme Court, and they deemed

671
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 13: that was unconstitutional as a violation of their First Amendment rights,

672
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 13: and then the states, you know, tweaked some of those

673
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 13: laws to make it, you know, applicable for that in

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00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 13: many states, but Arizona is not one of them. So

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00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 13: Arizona does not have any laws against inmates in this

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00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 13: situation being able to profit.

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00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 1: Wow, well, maybe after tonight they will. And you know, Derek,

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00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: you mentioned Son of Sam laws regarding Berkowitz. You know,

679
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: it goes all the way back to the movie Goodfellows,

680
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: where there was a lawsuit that went to the US

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00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: Supreme Court over profiting from Goodfellows. I mean, this is

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00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 1: a valiantly fought battle and states have the power to

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00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 1: stop this. We wait as just as unfalls. Goodbye friend,