1 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the podcast in 2 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: which we speak with some of the brightest minds working 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: in the media business today. I'm Chris Willman, senior writer 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: and chief music critic with a Variety. Today's guest is 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 1: Aaron Desner, a multifaceted talent who is essentially enjoying two 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: distinct careers in the music business right now. His primary 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: job for the last twenty five years has been as 8 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: a member of the very popular rock group The National 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: as a multi instrumentalist and co writer. That band had 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: a big burst of creativity and released two albums in 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, as well as going out on tour. 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: But he's been increasingly right now for his other job 13 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: as their producer for some of the most popular artists 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: in the business. He's beloved by Swifties for helping steer 15 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift in a different direction with their Folkmore Evermore albums, 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: both released in twenty twenty and his work with her 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: was heard on the deluxe edition of her twenty twenty 18 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: two Midnight's album. He also is a producer of Ed 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: Sheeran's two most recent albums, both released in twenty twenty three, 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: which similarly marked a change style for that singer. Destin 21 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: doesn't just work with superstars. He got under the ground 22 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: floor with Gracie Abrams, first for an EP and then 23 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: this year with her full length debut, the album Good Riddance. 24 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: That was a fruitful collaboration, as Gracie Abrams is now 25 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: up for a Grammy for Best New Artists as a 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 1: result of their work together. We'll talk with Dester about 27 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: how he juggles all these rewarding gigs when strictly business 28 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:38,119 Speaker 1: comes back after the break. 29 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 2: With our ongoing Songwriters Forward initiatives, Sony Music Publishing is 30 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: expanding and enhancing support for songwriters and composers in all 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: aspects of their development. From our recently expanded legacy un 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 2: couped balance program to our songwriter assistance offerings, we put 33 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 2: songwriters at the forefront of everything we do. If you 34 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 2: are a Sony Music Publishing songwriter and want to learn 35 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: more about Songwriters Forward, visit sonymusicpub dot com. 36 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,120 Speaker 1: We're back with Aaron Destner, the member of the National 37 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: who has gone on to find renown as a producer 38 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 1: for Taylor Swift At, Sharon, Gracie Arabs and others well 39 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: You've got what many people would basically consider two careers 40 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: and living in the dream of many musicians, being in 41 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: a celebrated band and then working with some of the 42 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: other most celebrated artists in the world. 43 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 3: Do you see it that. 44 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: Way that I'm the envy of every musician I know, 45 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: or do you kind of have your head down that 46 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: you're not thinking, Wow, I'm really in this kind of 47 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: elevated territory where I get to do all these incredible things. 48 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 4: Nothing, well, thank you. 49 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 5: This so. 50 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,119 Speaker 4: Sweet that you think of it that way. I think, Yeah, 51 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 4: my head is often in the weeds of just making 52 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 4: music and trying to be creative and trying to push 53 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 4: myself to create things which i you know, to break 54 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 4: new ground or somehow evolve, and it's easy to lose 55 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 4: sight of what you've accomplished, or you know, to smell 56 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 4: the roses, so to speak, because it's not really my 57 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 4: personality to sit and kind of be proud of myself. 58 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 4: And maybe that's a I should get better at that, 59 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 4: but I mean, I don't know, I don't know. I 60 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 4: feel like after the morning after you do anything positive, 61 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 4: you know, if you make any music or play any concert, 62 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 4: you know, or or finish any recording, you still feel 63 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 4: like that next morning that you still have to climb 64 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 4: another mountain somehow, or just or find a way to 65 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 4: be productive. And I think that's why I have been prolific, 66 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 4: because I don't really get stuck in the feeling of, 67 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 4: oh wow, it's great all these things I've done. I 68 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 4: kind of but it's also a little bit sad because 69 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 4: you want to slow down and sort of appreciate it. 70 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 5: Also. 71 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 4: I'm trying to get better at that, but I have recently, 72 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 4: with the National, started to really notice like to to 73 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,919 Speaker 4: soak it in, to be on stage with the National 74 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 4: and be like, this is you know, there's whatever twenty 75 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 4: thousand people singing our songs in Amsterdam and it's really fun, 76 00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 4: you know, looking out and kind of being proud of 77 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 4: it and soaking it in. And so that's that's kind 78 00:04:58,480 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 4: of important. 79 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm wondering how it works for you in 80 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: terms of looking ahead at your schedule. Do you look 81 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: ahead by month or or a year at this point 82 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: because you know, we talked about life work balance. In 83 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: your case, maybe you've got life work work part two 84 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: balance And I know you've got three kids and you're 85 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: probably getting enalyst calls to produce, especially ever since you 86 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: won you know, Best Album of the Year Grammy with 87 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift for Folklore and done so many great things 88 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: since then. Very in demand, I'm sure. And maybe this 89 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:36,919 Speaker 1: wasn't as big an issue for you when the group 90 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: went four years between albums instead of five months like 91 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: you did this. Yeah, and just for the them on 92 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: the audience. The National put out two albums in twenty 93 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: twenty three, first Two Pages of Frankenstein in April, followed 94 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: by the surprise sequel laugh Track in September. And when 95 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: people are hearing this podcast, you will have wrapped up 96 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:00,599 Speaker 1: at a US leg of the tour at the end 97 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 1: of November, that you take a break before you start 98 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: overseas in New Zealand and Australia in February, and you've 99 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 1: got European festivals next June. But there are some breaks 100 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: in there at this point in the touring now that 101 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: you've been on the road for a while. So do 102 00:06:16,120 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: you fill in every gap with production work or how 103 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: do you kind of manage shifting to it? 104 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 5: Yeah? 105 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 4: Well, I try not to fill everything up, and I'm 106 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 4: not a great planner. I'm not a Google calendar sort 107 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 4: of person. I do have a manager who's much more organized, 108 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 4: and I feel like at this point I have a 109 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,239 Speaker 4: few really key collaborators, some of whom the world knows 110 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 4: about and others maybe they don't it, but like people 111 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 4: that are in my life and I frequently make things 112 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 4: with so a lot of times I feel it's sort 113 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 4: of organic that you get home and you know I'll 114 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 4: be in this space and you just end up making 115 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 4: things with friends, and a lot of times it's just 116 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 4: part of a work stream that already exists, So I 117 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 4: don't I think what's harder is to make and that's 118 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 4: easy because you just sort of all right back into it. 119 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 4: What's harder is to make time to meet new people 120 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 4: and to kind of find time for them to come 121 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 4: visit or I visit them, and you've been work together, 122 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 4: and that's really important, and that's the trickier thing. And 123 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 4: I do try to be a little bit thoughtful or 124 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 4: a lot thoughtful about who those people are that you 125 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 4: reach out to or that reach out to you and 126 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 4: making time for it, because it's always a way to 127 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 4: grow when you encounter someone new and like have to 128 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 4: learn what their way of working is and their process 129 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 4: and their strength. From there, how you might click and 130 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 4: what the chemistry might be, and that's where it gets 131 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 4: really interesting. So I've been doing that a little bit 132 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 4: of late, and I hope to do more next year. 133 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 4: But it is true that ever since, I mean, I 134 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 4: was always busy, and then Wynn Taylor and I collaborated 135 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 4: on folklore and evermore. Of course, she's such a lightning rod, 136 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 4: and she showed some dimension of my work that the 137 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 4: world maybe didn't know about or something, and so it 138 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:39,199 Speaker 4: did cause a lot of a lot more attention and 139 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 4: a lot more interest, which has been really positive and 140 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 4: really exciting and wonderful. And it's one of the one 141 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 4: of the amazing things about her is how she brings 142 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 4: her friends and her collaborators. She brings them up both 143 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 4: through her ways of encouraging and beaching and lending her talent. 144 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 4: You know, kind of like you feel like all of 145 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 4: a sudden you're have a superpower, But really it's partially 146 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 4: or a lot of it is really just her ability 147 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 4: to carve into something that you're doing. But so that's 148 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 4: part of it. But then the other thing is that 149 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 4: she's she's generous with introductions and you know, a feeling 150 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 4: of encouragement and you know, she wants her collaborators to 151 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 4: spread their wings and do things, and you know, so 152 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 4: that's been really really amazing, you know, and it's a 153 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 4: good like that's very much part of the community, that 154 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 4: that sentiment is part of the community that I come 155 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 4: out of. Also, just this like all boats rise, and 156 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 4: like to me, the smallest project is as is as 157 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 4: important as you know, the ones that have higher pressure, 158 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 4: bigger audiences, because you never know where you're going to 159 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 4: grow or where the. 160 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 5: Magic will be made. 161 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 4: And I listened to all the music that I've made 162 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 4: and all my friends music, and just listen to everybody's 163 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 4: music and really love I love I love the weird 164 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 4: Overlook songs as much as the songs everybody listens to. 165 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing I've noticed that just looking at these 166 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 1: back to back national albums, I think, well, that's kind 167 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: of happened for you as a producer too. There seems 168 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: to be this kind of pattern of great two fers 169 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: in your life because Folklore, of course, was very quickly 170 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: followed up by Evermore, with you doing the line share 171 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: of primary collaboration on both those and then ed Sharon 172 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: did back to back albums with you very quickly, and 173 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,280 Speaker 1: in both cases it was probably great that you were 174 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: available and have the time when they said, hey, let's 175 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: let's keep this momentum going. 176 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: So yeah, is that something. 177 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: You enjoyed to be able to reach some kind of 178 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: creative peak with somebody and then like, well, hey, let's 179 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: not wait three years for this, let's let's uh do 180 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: something that's in a similar vein but a little different 181 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 1: at the same time as a quick follow up. 182 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's like less about making new records 183 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 4: and more just about continuing the chemistry because once you 184 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:33,599 Speaker 4: once you have a creative low with someone or understand 185 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 4: understanding and kind of curiosity where your gears are turning, 186 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 4: it's hard to shut it off and it's a little 187 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 4: sad too. So I think in the case of Taylor, 188 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 4: we just kept making stuff. And I've had that experience 189 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 4: now with a number of brands also, like Gracie Abrams 190 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 4: is just here and it's great because more you know 191 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 4: someone where you trust each other, and you also become 192 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 4: aware of like, well we already did that, let's try 193 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 4: to what can we do to do differently? And it 194 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 4: feels yeah, it feels as opposed to just making one 195 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 4: record and then saying goodbye. That to me is always sad, 196 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 4: you know. I feel like I would prefer fewer collaborators 197 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 4: and more projects amongst those collaborators than lots of collaborators 198 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 4: and you know, one record and then you you know, 199 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 4: move on from each other. Although I think it's also important, 200 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 4: like for artists, they we're all stret like you get, 201 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 4: you have your habits and your ways of sounding, and 202 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 4: sometimes it's hard to change unless you really radically change things. 203 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 4: And so that's why I think also sometimes people do shift, 204 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 4: or they try different they work in different spaces, or 205 00:12:55,440 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 4: I think some you know, some times Taylor joked that 206 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 4: the songs that she writes with me or like writing 207 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 4: with a quill as opposed to maybe, you know, like 208 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 4: in an old way, you know, and even lyrically, they 209 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 4: maybe they harken back to an earlier time as opposed 210 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 4: to maybe songs she writes with another hat on. 211 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 5: And I like that metaphore. 212 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 4: Also, And so sometimes this place long time, I feel 213 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 4: like it's a little bit like people are stepping into 214 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 4: it back into the nineteenth century or something, just because 215 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 4: like we're literally surrounded by old, really old farms and 216 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 4: old houses and there's no just countryside and you can 217 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,839 Speaker 4: kind of like for you can imagine you're somewhere else. 218 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 5: Definitely. 219 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, And of course I've talked with the Gracie about 220 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: what she loved working at Long Pond and she almost 221 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: described it in kind of womb like terms as opposed 222 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: to the daily activity she used to do in Los Angeles. 223 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: And yeah, so it sounds like part of what works 224 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: there is just being in a kind of isolation from 225 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: day to day life. But also your family's there, and 226 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: so you know, Gracie would talk about being around the 227 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 1: kids and everything, and so maybe that being around that 228 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: family environment is a little bit conducive to a certain 229 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,239 Speaker 1: kind of music making, if you're not making like industrial 230 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: rock or something or trying to be really Yeah. 231 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I feel like it's easy for people 232 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 4: to be vulnerable here because it does feel you know, 233 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 4: the studios fifty yards from where I live with my family, 234 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 4: and you can kind of feel you do feel like Jill, 235 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 4: You can hear children, you can you see a lot 236 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 4: of wildlife. There's literally a giant black bear that lives 237 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 4: right above this video in the woods, and like just 238 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 4: something about it is kind of viscerally natural, and that 239 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 4: is disarming, I think, as opposed to most most studio 240 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 4: environments that are very there's not much air and there's 241 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 4: not much light, and you're kind of like you're in 242 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 4: room three down the hall and there's like no windows 243 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 4: and there's it's very impersonal, and I don't know how 244 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 4: people do it, to be honestly, I I every time 245 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 4: I'm in those situations, I do struggle a little bit. 246 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 4: So I appreciate, you know, people coming basically to stay 247 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 4: here and Grace he'll stay here for a week or 248 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 4: ten days, and in that time she'll become very comfortable 249 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 4: and very like in. 250 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 5: Her element, and then the. 251 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 4: Writing seems to really just come. You know. 252 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, what was it like working in sort of two 253 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: different kinds of situations with Taylor? 254 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: Because the first time. 255 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: With folklore, as everyone knows from the lore of Folklore, 256 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: it was done in isolation during the pandemic, and then 257 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: you did and then the world sort of got to 258 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: know Long Pond. 259 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 3: It's sort of iconic now. 260 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: Probably ironically that this place that you have out in 261 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: the woods basically would be sort of world famous at 262 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: this point because of the Long Pond sessions be the 263 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: title of this documentary that she did there and everything. 264 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 3: And then you know, it seems like the follow up. 265 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: Album, Evermore, was not done exclusively sending tracks back and 266 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: forth like maybe happened the first time. 267 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: So did it make a big difference between those two. 268 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: Albums of actually meeting in her, being at Long Pond 269 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: and experiencing all that stuff together. 270 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it was. We still do work remotely 271 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,959 Speaker 4: a lot because of just the nature of lives, and 272 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 4: she has a place. Yeah, she spent that in New 273 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 4: York City, but I'm two hours north of the city, 274 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 4: So even when we've worked subsequently, it's oftentimes it is remote, 275 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,239 Speaker 4: but then she'll come here to record vocals. But it 276 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 4: was I think from Folklore to Evermore that that then 277 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 4: she was present here and there was a period there 278 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 4: was once a week or almost a week where she was. 279 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:33,480 Speaker 5: Just here. 280 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 4: And it was really wonderful. It was like it felt 281 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 4: like real life versus this imaginary, magical life that we 282 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 4: had had during Folklore, and suddenly the world was opening 283 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 4: up a little bit. But literally, the first song that 284 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 4: was written for Evermore was Willow, and that was because 285 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 4: we had visited each other to celebrate to kind of 286 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 4: like have a moment and be like this, you know, 287 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 4: we'd made folklore and it was so special and and 288 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 4: then I glas I often do. I had a musical 289 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 4: thing happen right that, the music of will It just 290 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,399 Speaker 4: came to me and I sent it to Taylor and 291 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 4: she sent Willow back fairly quickly. And then it was 292 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 4: kind of funny because we were like it was like 293 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 4: there was a feeling I think of like oh, and 294 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 4: then it's just back and forth, and then there was 295 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 4: ever more and I think, yeah, but I think it's both, 296 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 4: you know. I think that's the great thing about getting 297 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 4: to know people and getting to be such a friend, 298 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 4: you know, developing a friendship that's both a creative collaboration 299 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 4: and a real friend that you you do enjoy. It's 300 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 4: just nice to be present sometimes with some month sometimes 301 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 4: we don't work on music at all, or like I've 302 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 4: just flown in to play songs occasionally on our tour 303 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 4: and get to experience seeing the show playing a song, 304 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 4: and it just feels like you're mostly there as a friend, 305 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 4: you know, even though I had like a tiny role 306 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 4: getting up there, it's mostly just a thrill to watch 307 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 4: and experience like everybody else the tour, so but it 308 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 4: can be. I think it's good both ways. And I 309 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 4: and I have worked remotely with a number. 310 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 5: Of people at. 311 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:41,679 Speaker 4: This point, so it's just kind of the crazy thing 312 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 4: about technology, you know, even just somebody singing into their 313 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 4: iPhone sounds pretty great. 314 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 3: We'll be right back. 315 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: So many music publishing is changing the narrative on songwriters support. 316 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: More songwriters and composers around the world are making use 317 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 2: of our Songwriter Assistance program, our free confidential counseling services 318 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: and wellness resources available twenty four to seven in over 319 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 2: seventy languages. If you are a Sony Music Publishing songwriter 320 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: and want to learn more about Songwriter Assistance and the 321 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 2: rest of our Songwriter Forward initiatives, visit sonymusicpub dot com. 322 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: We are back with Aaron Destner, the multi instrumentalist member 323 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: of the National who has become one of the most 324 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: sought after producers in music as well. Just the idea 325 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 1: of how you work together when you do work remotely 326 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: is so fascinating. And the fact that you send this 327 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: track and she sends back this top line with lyrics 328 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: and sometimes pretty quickly, and I was just like reading 329 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: up on some of the songs I enjoy, like Tolerate It, 330 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: which is currently or recently, you know, a real favorite 331 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 1: on the Aras tour and not realizing that was like 332 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: a ten eight time signature, and so she doesn't balk 333 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: when you send her a song to a ten eight 334 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: time signature, she somehow fits a lyric to that and 335 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 1: sends it right back, is basically what happens. 336 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the thing about the amazing thing about 337 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 4: Taylor is she's not phased by complexity at all, and 338 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 4: you know, she's sort of run circles around it in 339 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 4: her ways. You know, a lot of times the best 340 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 4: songs are incredibly simple and repetitive, and it's more about 341 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 4: the feeling or the lyric and the melody. And in 342 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 4: other times it's interesting when something I think I do, 343 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 4: I do without thinking about it. I often write in 344 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 4: odd time seatures just because I find it, like I 345 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 4: find there's an emotional quality in them. So Tolerate Tolerated 346 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 4: is a very good example of that. I wasn't trying 347 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 4: to do anything that's tricky, and it's only tricky if 348 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 4: you start getting in your. 349 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 5: Head about it. 350 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 4: But she she's totally unfazed. And and at some point 351 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 4: it was only when we were tracking the vocals that suddenly, 352 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 4: like the way the click track is not hitting the downbeat, 353 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 4: you know, unless you said it to then that suddenly 354 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 4: it was like, wait, what's going on with this one? 355 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 4: You know? And but that she can like sing it 356 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 4: in these giant stadium as while like being on top 357 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 4: of the dinner table, and just like and she's already 358 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,959 Speaker 4: played twenty songs when she's gonna twenty four more. It's 359 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 4: super cool. 360 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 5: You know. 361 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 4: It was a thrill for me to see that song 362 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 4: performed in this iconic way and in school, you know, 363 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 4: And it's definitely not something I imagine. And again, like 364 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 4: I think I made. Sometimes you just make music and 365 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 4: you love it and you don't know what it is, 366 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 4: and that's the best thing. And those are the best 367 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 4: pieces of music, I think, And at least for me, 368 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 4: the ones that end up meaning the most. It's because 369 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 4: like I really fell in love with what I was making, 370 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 4: and I think Taylor is really good at spotting those ones, 371 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 4: you know, so tyrate. It is that kind of thing. 372 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 4: It just had a feeling, and she was able to 373 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 4: give substance to that feeling. 374 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:52,399 Speaker 5: There it is. 375 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,400 Speaker 1: There were just two other songs I thought i'd ask 376 00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: about because they're fan favorites and also personal favorites of 377 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 1: myself or my family, and they're like bonus tracks that 378 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: have become like some of the most adored songs of Taylors. 379 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: So my personal sort of pet favorite song of what 380 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: you've done together really anything She's done practically is right 381 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: Where You Left Me, which I read that you had 382 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: originally had the bet for that and thought of it 383 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: as a big red Machine song. And then the other 384 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: one was going to ask about which the fans adore 385 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: is would have, could have, should have and which is 386 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,680 Speaker 1: a song in a totally different vein a much more 387 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: kind of contemporary, less kind of an acoustic song. 388 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 3: Anything saying about how either of those songs. 389 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: Came together, just because I know people are fascinating those two. 390 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, Well, Right Where You Left Me was actually I'm 391 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 4: not sure where you read that. It was supposed to 392 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 4: be groschy, but it was it was really that I 393 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 4: I made that music for that song when I was 394 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 4: going to see I went to see justin Vernon, you know, 395 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,399 Speaker 4: Claire during the pandemic to work on some of the 396 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 4: Evermore songs with him. And I remember that I wrote 397 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 4: some music that morning I was flying out and I 398 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,920 Speaker 4: sent it to Taylor and it was just like a 399 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 4: feeling in there and I just said this banjo and 400 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 4: I played a banjo, and I'm not really a banjo player, 401 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 4: but I'm a fingerpicker, so I can kind of, you know, 402 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 4: get in there a little bit. And and she wrote 403 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 4: that song and sent it right back, and it was 404 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,199 Speaker 4: it felt really connected to that time of like of 405 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 4: going to Claire and working on Evermore. So that's you 406 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 4: know here justin on song. He's you know, sings harmony 407 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 4: on songs like Ivy and he plays drums on on 408 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 4: Cowboy like me. And but basically it was that time 409 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 4: and the song. I remember loving it so Right Where 410 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 4: He left Me was it was clearly an amazing song, 411 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 4: and I think we had already. It came late in 412 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 4: the game where most of Evermore or all of Evermore 413 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 4: seemed to be complete, and Right Where You Left Me 414 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 4: was late, and I think then for that reason, I 415 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 4: think you Got it was left as a bonus track, 416 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 4: and it but it quickly after it came out, it 417 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 4: quickly started to become this song that people are obsessed with. 418 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 4: And it has so many words that and it tells 419 00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 4: this amazing story of someone like frozen in time, the 420 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 4: time of a breakup, collecting dust in a restaurant. And 421 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 4: it's just this really powerful, iconic narrative song that that 422 00:26:54,560 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 4: only Taylor is capable of. And we performed it, tried 423 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 4: to perform. We did perform it in San Francisco. But 424 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 4: it has so many words, like one of them. It's 425 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 4: probably the wordiest song, at least that she and I 426 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,439 Speaker 4: have written. It's not the wordiest song that she's written, 427 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 4: but and that was hard to perform, just to remember 428 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 4: all the words. But I think it's always been one 429 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 4: of my favorites that we we made, and I do 430 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 4: connect it to this time of sort of finishing Evermore 431 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 4: and and then would have, could have, should have? That 432 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 4: one is really sort of lightning in a bottle, I think, 433 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 4: as far as our work together, and it was the 434 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 4: opposite where it came. We made that song really in 435 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 4: the wake of folklore, and during it was Evermore had 436 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 4: been finished, but we and I had just Evermore was 437 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,360 Speaker 4: had just come out, I think, and we wrote more 438 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 4: songs somehow, including what it could have should have and 439 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 4: high in fidelity and Renegade, which became a big read 440 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 4: machine song, and we recorded them. We recorded the vocals 441 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 4: when I was in la at Taylor's house for the 442 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 4: Grammys when Folklore won. So I should have really long 443 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:22,800 Speaker 4: predated Midnights, and I think didn't really fit into the 444 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 4: work stream of all that became Midnights. But it was 445 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 4: clearly this like amazing, you know it, It's an amazing song, 446 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 4: and it's again like this epic rock song with this 447 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 4: epic narrative and really such an arc vocally and just 448 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 4: really cathartic, and that it's been amazing that it has 449 00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 4: had such a life of its own and response. 450 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 5: And I know a lot of people where. 451 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 4: It's like their favorite song that I've done, at least 452 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 4: with Taylor and them, and is really just a product 453 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 4: of like continuing to work. And I was messing around 454 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 4: with the software at the time, playing around with a 455 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 4: vocal so you hear you actually hear Justin's voice sampled 456 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 4: in there with this melody I was making through through 457 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 4: this sort of experimental software, and it kind of like 458 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 4: was part of that world at the time. But then 459 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 4: again Taylor just what she can do it's astonishing to write. 460 00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 4: You know, you can imagine like she's just made folklore 461 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 4: and evermore, she hasn't even won the Grammy for Folklore yet, 462 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 4: and yet there's all these songs. So she's just penning, 463 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 4: you know, in the middle of the night or whenever 464 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 4: it was. And you know, it's almost casually because we 465 00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 4: weren't We had no intent to be making new record 466 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 4: or starting that process, but they just came, came and 467 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 4: came to be. 468 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, and then following up with someone like Ed, 469 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: who is is kind of getting in a more contemplative 470 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,800 Speaker 1: vein with you than you know some of these you know, 471 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: records's made in the past with for Al Williams or something. 472 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 4: Did he. 473 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: When he came to you, or if it was a 474 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: matter of him coming to you, did he talk about 475 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: the kind of records he wanted to make or it 476 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: was probably just one record at first, But did you 477 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: get a sense of why he wanted to work with 478 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: you and like what you had done that he felt 479 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: like was perfect for maybe a minor sort of reinvention 480 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: that he was doing. 481 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 4: Well. 482 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 5: We met. 483 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 4: We also met through Taylor because I worked on the 484 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,520 Speaker 4: song Run that they had writen for Red that we 485 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,959 Speaker 4: made it, or I mean we made a new version. 486 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 4: It had never come up, but we made a version 487 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 4: for the Taylor's version of Red and sort of hit 488 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 4: it off over email, and then we had dinner one 489 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 4: night in New York and just really I mean he's 490 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 4: really really lovely, just lovable, kind of magnetic personality, and 491 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 4: he we just talked a lot about music, and I 492 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 4: have been amazed by his ability to entertain you know, 493 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 4: eighty thousand people by himself using a looper and kind 494 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 4: of was been thinking about, like what if that music 495 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 4: We kind of talked about like what was he imagining 496 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 4: and where did he want to go? And I think 497 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 4: he was imagine getting away from the guitar and maybe 498 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 4: like making something more fragile but using other instruments, maybe 499 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 4: making something that was like leaning away from pop music. 500 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 4: And I was imagining, like, well what if what if 501 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 4: it was my sense of harmony or my sense of 502 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 4: some of the intricacy of how I approached guitar playing, 503 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 4: but like with his sense. 504 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 5: Of melody and rhythm, And. 505 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 4: I feel like that's where we ended up going. Although 506 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 4: in the middle of making all of this, he had 507 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 4: a number of really serious sad family and friend life 508 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 4: moments happened, you know, losing friends and his wife had 509 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 4: an illness, and it kind of really what became Subtract 510 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 4: then took a different turn into something that was very 511 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 4: emotional and very confessional and very deeply, very much about 512 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 4: mental illness and sadness and grief and and so that 513 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 4: was kind of but that was not our intent initially. 514 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 4: And then at the same time, like Autumn Variations was 515 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 4: more like what we set out to do in the 516 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 4: first place, and it kind of became like the follow 517 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 4: up record, and there were a lot of those songs 518 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 4: that you know, and they're all different kinds of songs, 519 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 4: and I would say the main theme is like eventually 520 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 4: like he's ed is a different sort of artist in 521 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 4: terms of how he's worked and the people he's worked with. 522 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 4: And in a way this was it was hard to 523 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 4: it was hard somewhat hard for some of the people 524 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 4: around him or for his label to embrace him departing 525 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 4: in any way from what was so successful, you know, 526 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 4: so like at times we felt some headwinds, you know, 527 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 4: but he really what we wanted to do is really 528 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 4: just like make songs without compromise and not really think 529 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 4: about the commerciality of them, because it wasn't what he 530 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 4: was doing and he'd done that for so long and 531 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,320 Speaker 4: he's still so capable of it, and he'll do it again. 532 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 4: I think with me, he just wanted to like be 533 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 4: prolific and make lots of songs and put them out, 534 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 4: you know, quickly, and that's what we did. 535 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 5: Yeah. 536 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: One thing that strikes me as kind of a sweet 537 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: spot for you that I think speaks at least to 538 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 1: some degree to your success and why people want to 539 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: work with you and why the records resonate with people, 540 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: is that you're kind of associated with acoustic or organic sounds, 541 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,799 Speaker 1: which can be deceptive, I think, because you're also like 542 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: seem like you're a master software manipulator and there's a 543 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: great deal of technology that you have this incredible handle on. 544 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: But somebody just you know, listening on the surface, might 545 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: hear a lot of these songs and just think, oh, 546 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: that's this is a wonderful song with a guy playing 547 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: this kind of masterful acoustic guitar and they're not thinking 548 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: about studio manipulation, and so that's that's a wonderful illusion 549 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 1: to create if you can create it. And I don't 550 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: want to say that none of the songs are completely 551 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 1: sort of organic in the studio, but you have this 552 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: gift for being on top of everything you can do 553 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: in a studio and but then making records that can 554 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: sound very woodsy to sort of folklore ethos. And is 555 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: that something that I don't know if it counts as 556 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: an irony or just being doubly gifted in certain ways. 557 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 4: But I mean it's a good question. 558 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 5: I feel like. 559 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 4: I grew up. You know, I have a twin brother 560 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 4: who's classically trained as a question school guitarist and who 561 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 4: also plays in the National Race and is technically a 562 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 4: very gifted guitarist, and I grew we grew up. I 563 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 4: was playing the drums in the bass and he was 564 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 4: playing the guitar. We shared a room until we were eighteen. 565 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 4: An event, and like you know, I also played the 566 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 4: guitar and I would emulate his. He became very accomplished 567 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 4: as a classical guitarist, and I was not studying classical guitar, 568 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 4: but I was imitating with you know, playing fingerstyle, but 569 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,200 Speaker 4: more like writing songs that way. And you can hear 570 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 4: that way of playing the guitar obviously in folklore and 571 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 4: other things that I've done were like I do. It's 572 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 4: funny the band calls me the acoustic specialist because I 573 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 4: can play very intricately and fast and very metronomically, you know, 574 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 4: with these patterns or really fast drumming or whatever. It 575 00:36:56,280 --> 00:37:00,120 Speaker 4: is just always been sort of I enjoy that as 576 00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 4: much as I also play electric guitar and stuff. I 577 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,840 Speaker 4: do really enjoy playing all kinds of have acoustic instruments. 578 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 4: But years ago I got really into approachls and got 579 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 4: into we were recording our own albums and for the 580 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 4: National and then for other and I was doing it 581 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 4: for other friends and gradually started to be interested in 582 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 4: experimenting and trying, you know, all kinds of things. And 583 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 4: I wouldn't say that I'm I'm definitely not a wizard 584 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 4: on the at all on the level of certain wizards, 585 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 4: Like you know, there's people that come here that are 586 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 4: kind of like writing their own software patches or just 587 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 4: doing things you can't even imagine what they're doing. But like, 588 00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,360 Speaker 4: I'm curious and I like to play around, and I 589 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 4: have a lot of raw material, so I will end 590 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 4: up sort of like. 591 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 5: What if I try that, and what if we do that. 592 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 4: And you know, you end up creating layers in songs 593 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 4: or creating the basis of songs that are that are 594 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 4: surprising somehow. But it's still I would say the crux 595 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 4: of what I do is still organically playing instruments, you know, 596 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 4: and trying to write songs on one instrument or on 597 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 4: a few instruments where. 598 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 5: They really work. 599 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, without a lot, without a lot of trickery. Because 600 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,280 Speaker 4: a lot of music today is made is sample based 601 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,840 Speaker 4: and made in the computer, and it sounds amazing because 602 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 4: of that. It's like air tight and people are very 603 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 4: creative with how they do it. But there is I 604 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 4: don't know, I I'm I do still enjoy just like 605 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 4: the feeling of playing, you know in the room. 606 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, I should say, my zoom's going to run out 607 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: three and a half minutes, so I'll try to Okay, 608 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: I'm not on the plus forty minute plan unfortunately. 609 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 4: Oh okay, so. 610 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,800 Speaker 3: If we get cut off, understand. 611 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 1: But just one other thing I noticed that I thought 612 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:00,279 Speaker 1: was funny, or maybe not funny, but Rolling Stone own 613 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:04,280 Speaker 1: named you and your brother tied for the two hundred 614 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: and forty third greatest guitarist of all the time. How 615 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: does it feel to be the two hundred and forty 616 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: third greatest guitarist ever. 617 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 4: That's funny. My brother we sent it to I think 618 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 4: he sent to me and or maybe I sent it 619 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,480 Speaker 4: to him and he wrote back like low ish like 620 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 4: low and then wife and ish because but it's of 621 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,839 Speaker 4: course a huge honor, like that's it's crazy to even 622 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 4: be on the list. But I also find all that 623 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 4: it's so funny, you know, it's just like it's good 624 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,680 Speaker 4: journal it's good like sales here as people love lists, 625 00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 4: you know, and it's cool to be on it, and 626 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 4: especially that we're on it together, because that would suck 627 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,239 Speaker 4: one of us was on it and not the other one. 628 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,880 Speaker 4: That would not be good for family, Dyna. So we 629 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 4: were thrilled to be equally two hundred and forty three 630 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 4: number two and forty three. 631 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: Last question I'll try to get in. You have had 632 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: ambitions above and beyond being in a band or producing 633 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 1: for other artists. You did you and your brother did 634 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: the musical Serrano for stage and screen, and I'm wondering 635 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: if you have any more thoughts along those lines or 636 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,640 Speaker 1: completely other things that you want to get involved in 637 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: beyond what you already have. 638 00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 4: I think it would be fun. Like sometimes justin Vernon 639 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 4: and I in an as Mitchell talk about like what 640 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 4: if you know, because Bigger Machine is this project we 641 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,640 Speaker 4: all love, but what if it's becomes something else, you know, 642 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,759 Speaker 4: that exists in a different way, or is like a 643 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 4: concept that gets developed into like a something for stage 644 00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 4: or something for some other way of like experimenting with 645 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,000 Speaker 4: how music is put out in the world. It's more adventurous. 646 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,360 Speaker 4: But and then yeah, I just I'm always just excited 647 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:05,840 Speaker 4: by opportunities to make things. So I'd love to Mike Mills, 648 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 4: the director, Mike Mills. I just think it's one of 649 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 4: my most favorite people I've ever worked with in Bryce 650 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 4: and I did this soundtrack for come On, Come On, 651 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,839 Speaker 4: So I'm hoping he wants. He's always threatening to come 652 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:17,920 Speaker 4: up here, and I'm just can't wait till he shows 653 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 4: up again because I think he's so brilliant, lovely. 654 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:22,719 Speaker 5: Yeah. 655 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I forgot about the other soundtrack work too. Yeah, 656 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,280 Speaker 1: so yeah I got that in there. 657 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 5: Thank you. 658 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:34,279 Speaker 1: We're about to run out, but we covered so much 659 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: ground here, so thank you. I'm so glad to get 660 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: to talk with you again. I love talk with Gracie. 661 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,239 Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear you're working with her. 662 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 4: Some more so amazing. Thank you so much, Chriss and 663 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 4: I'll see you. 664 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:51,440 Speaker 3: So just all been very eliminating. 665 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 1: We're so grateful to Aaron Jstner for helping generate some 666 00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 1: of the best music of the last few years and 667 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: for spending time with us a Variety Strictly Business podcast. 668 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: Thanks to you for listening. Please leave us a review 669 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: at Apple podcast at Amazon Music. We love to get 670 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,880 Speaker 1: your feedback. Please go to Variety dot com sign up 671 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,560 Speaker 1: for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter. We hope you'll 672 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,680 Speaker 1: tune in again next week for another episode of Strictly Business. 673 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 2: Songwriters and composers want faster payments and financial flexibility for 674 00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 2: their careers. With cash Out and Score, Sony Music Publishing 675 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 2: is making it faster and easier than ever for songwriters 676 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,280 Speaker 2: to access available funds and stay informed of their global 677 00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,560 Speaker 2: earnings with real time data and insights. 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