Henry: Warning, in this episode, you'll be hearing about my dad
Henry: talk about astrology, baseball, K-pop, heavy metal, bananas, Lilo and Stitch,
Henry: and also growing up as an immigrant, which I think is awesome.
Henry: If you're not into it, that's okay, but I hope
Henry: you stick around.
Mangesh: This is so ridiculous. My numerologist told me that I should be
Mangesh: eating bananas every day and particularly on Wednesdays, and today
Mangesh: is Wednesday. So I've got these tiny, tiny bananas that
Mangesh: are maybe half the height of my palm. I'm gonna
Mangesh: tear a couple off and eat them and also press
Mangesh: them into my palm.
Mangesh: Back when I began this show, Dr. Kumar, the astrologer
Mangesh: I met in Queens, told me I should consider buying
Mangesh: an emerald.
Dr. Kumar: It would be a good idea if you wore an emerald.
Dr. Kumar: Emeraldd is the gemstone from the planet Mercury, to have
Dr. Kumar: better communication, better connection.
Mangesh: Basically, it's a way of nudging the universe, telling it
Mangesh: to boost the wearer's communication skills. The truth is I
Mangesh: could use the help. I mean, I stutter and I mumble,
Mangesh: and I'm introverted, and here I am making a podcast.
Mangesh: So I'm very tempted by a quick fix.
Mangesh: So let's see if this makes me more of a
Mangesh: leader and better at communicating, I think.
Mangesh: Gems are a big part of Indian astrology. They're used
Mangesh: as duct tape—quick solutions to strengthen the deficiencies in your birth chart.
Mangesh: For example, my Mercury is weak, so an emerald can
Mangesh: help compensate. The problem is that many astrologers are known
Mangesh: for having a tie in with a jeweler and taking
Mangesh: a commission for referrals, which makes me suspicious. But also,
Mangesh: I live in New York City and I'm kind of
Mangesh: a chief skate and emerald sounds pricey. That's why I
Mangesh: was thrilled when a different seer, Dr. Divya Malhotra, who has
Mangesh: a PhD in numerology, told me to forget about jewelers
Mangesh: and just buy some bananas instead.
Dr. Divya: Which is odd because I'm born and brought up in
Dr. Divya: a Delhi jeweller family and married to a Mumbai based
Dr. Divya: jeweller family.
Mangesh: Her house is filled with too many jewelers! And although
Mangesh: she's been surrounded by sparkly things all her life-
Dr. Divya: I don't recommend my clients to wear any semi precious stones.
Mangesh: To her, the magic isn't in the cut of the stone,
Mangesh: but in its color.
Dr. Divya: I heal them with the remedies, and my remedies are
Dr. Divya: very simple.
Mangesh: And what are these simple remedies?
Dr. Divya: You can eat banana, apple.
Mangesh: Really?
Dr. Divya: Yes, that's called the color therapy.
Mangesh: She believes that fruit can do what gems do for
Mangesh: a fraction of the price. So, after this intense and
Mangesh: complicated numerical analysis of my birth times and dates, she
Mangesh: hands me a thick packet of information that describes my
Mangesh: personality fairly accurately, along with my many flaws, and then
Mangesh: she recommends the colors that will improve my life.
Dr. Divya: Green and sun colors. You can use sun colors in
Dr. Divya: your life. So if you will touch colors to your
Dr. Divya: skin on every Wednesday, that will also help you out.
Mangesh: Dr. Divya has no shortage of clients, but she has a
Mangesh: gripe with the way people seek help from her. She
Mangesh: tells me that people only come when they're desperate for solutions.
Dr. Divya: Basically, you know what, I want to give awareness that-
Dr. Divya: you go to any occult science healer, don't go when
Dr. Divya: you are in pain, whether it's me or anybody else.
Dr. Divya: Work in the present to secure your future. Don't come
Dr. Divya: to me when your present is the worst to secure your future.
Mangesh: Her notion is: Why can't people treat a numerologist like
Mangesh: a doctor? The same way you do wellness checks to
Mangesh: stay healthy, keep your life in balance.
Dr. Divya: I can't give you the result overnight.
Mangesh: I don't go to the gym anymore, so maybe a
Mangesh: regular banana holding on Sundays and Wednesdays is how I'll
Mangesh: stay on top of things. Dr. Divya tells me it
Mangesh: will be three or four months of this by the
Mangesh: time I see results, which I guess isn't any weirder
Mangesh: than believing in the power of a shiny stone. But
Mangesh: I do feel silly. Because it is silly.
Mangesh: This is so ridiculous.
Mangesh: I moved from holding the banana chest level with two
Mangesh: hands to raising the banana up to the sky like
Mangesh: it's Simba from the Lion King, and then I eat it.
Mangesh: I don't normally eat breakfast, so. Happy about that.
Mangesh: Dr. Divya's right about astrology and the moments we turn
Mangesh: to it. Right now, Michelle Fan—a prospective law school student
Mangesh: and an unabashed BTS superfan—is in crisis, because her favorite band
Mangesh: is in crisis, just when she needs them most.
Michelle: All of a sudden, the members are crying, and then
Michelle: I'm crying, and I don't know what's going on.
BTS RM: [Speaking in Korean, choked up]
Michelle: I'm texting my friends. I felt like my life was
Michelle: flashing before my eyes because here are these people who
Michelle: have always been so happy, and now they're being vulnerable
Michelle: with us, and they're crying. They're talking about it like
Michelle: it's a breakup, even though they're saying it's not a breakup.
Mangesh: From Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts, I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. Welcome to
Mangesh: Skyline Drive. Chapter one, t-shirts and boy bands.
Mangesh: Michelle, why don't you say your full name for me
Mangesh: and just give me a little introduction about yourself.
Michelle: Yeah. Sure, my name is Michelle Fan. I am currently
Michelle: working full time in human rights, but right now, with
Michelle: my free time, I've been devoting it all to traveling
Michelle: and keeping up with BTS's activities.
Mangesh: From the moment I start chatting with Michelle, I like her.
Mangesh: She has this bubbly energy and this incredible sweetness that
Mangesh: I'm not expecting. Maybe because I know a little bit
Mangesh: about her circumstance? One of her friends, my colleague Vahini,
Mangesh: is worried about her. Michelle is super smart. Like college
Mangesh: honor society, aced her LSATs smart. But it's been a year since she
Mangesh: graduated and she hasn't filled out her law school applications yet.
Mangesh: She's been pushing it off for some reason, and her
Mangesh: pals are wondering: Can astrology help? Because maybe it can
Mangesh: give her the nudge she needs. But as we talk,
Mangesh: it's not clear to me how much Michelle wants a
Mangesh: reading for herself so much as she wants it for BTS,
Mangesh: the massive Korean pop group.
Michelle: I would like to know about their future families, and
Michelle: how many kids they're going to have, and how long
Michelle: they're going to keep doing this for. And what kind
Michelle: of music they'll do when they're like gray and old,
Michelle: and if they'll still perform, or like get together and
Michelle: do things like that.
Mangesh: Michelle's a BTS superfan, or what's known as ARMY.
Michelle: You can't be a casual ARMY. Like there's just something
Michelle: that is so captivating about BTS. Once you're in it,
Michelle: you're really in it, man. Like most of my closest
Michelle: ARMY friends are people that I already knew, and we
Michelle: connected even more over this thing that we weren't really
Michelle: embarrassed to like, but people wanted to make us embarrassed
Michelle: to like.
Mangesh: I feel guilty here because I'm technically anti-boy band. In
Mangesh: third grade, my friend Zoe and I would rip on
Mangesh: New Kids on the Block, and we were constantly evangelizing
Mangesh: how lame we thought they were. In high school, I
Mangesh: ribbed my little cousin because every time a Backstreet Boys
Mangesh: video came on, she screamed like it was Beatlemania, and
Mangesh: it made no sense to me. But it wasn't just
Mangesh: the music that offended me: something about how manufactured these
Mangesh: groups always are. Like you've got to have the bad boy,
Mangesh: and the sweetheart, and the shy one, and the slightly
Mangesh: older brother who seems a little too old to be
Mangesh: in the band. The groups are always perfectly curated for
Mangesh: mass consumption. Versus you know, outsiders who are trying to
Mangesh: express something real and authentic with their music and aren't
Mangesh: part of some assembly line. Anyway.
Mangesh: What does being a member of this fandom mean to you?
Michelle: What does it mean to me? Um, oh man, it
Michelle: means a lot. It's really nice to feel like you're
Michelle: part of something that is genuinely just like full of
Michelle: kindness and love and family. I think that they do
Michelle: a really good job of making ARMY feel like they're
Michelle: part of their family.
Mangesh: Seeing BTS live was a transcendent experience for her.
Michelle: You just look around you. All you see are these
Michelle: light sticks that are waving around, and it really feels
Michelle: like you're in a sea of stars. My friend and I,
Michelle: we sat and bawled after the concert was over because we
Michelle: were like, we're never going to have that magical experience again.
Michelle: I imagine that this is like what Disney adults feel
Michelle: like every summer. I wish I could have that, but
Michelle: I have to wait for the off chance that BTS
Michelle: is going to announce a performance in America for me
Michelle: to experience that level of, like, etherealness.
Mangesh: So Michelle spends her extra hours thinking about BTS and
Mangesh: interacting with fans, and luckily for ARMY, BTS has no
Mangesh: shortage of content. But as Michelle talks, it becomes clear
Mangesh: it isn't just about the music for her or the
Mangesh: community—which is powerful. It's also about seeing a Korean band
Mangesh: making it to the top of the American charts without
Mangesh: having to compromise their identity.
Michelle: I do feel like an additional connection to BTS because
Michelle: it's been so nice to see Asian artists really fully
Michelle: embrace their Asianness.
Mangesh: Michelle came to the States from China as a toddler.
Mangesh: Her dad brought the family over as he finished his PhD.
Mangesh: But even though they became upwardly mobile, living in a
Mangesh: nice suburban community, life at home at times was turbulent.
Michelle: My dad was pretty abusive. He's really not a great guy.
Michelle: He eventually left, which, good riddance. Um, my mom's here
Michelle: at home, and my dad's in China, and my brother
Michelle: is here with us too. So now it's just us three,
Michelle: and I guess my cat.
Mangesh: Michelle doesn't dwell on abuse or her absent dad. It's
Mangesh: just a speed bump she happens to acknowledge as we
Mangesh: talk about her upbringing. But being there for her mom
Mangesh: and her brother? That's a big part of her identity,
Mangesh: and that caring doesn't stop with her family. Michelle stands
Mangesh: up for anyone who is wounded.
Michelle: Since middle school, I wanted to go into human rights work.
Michelle: I've always just cared a lot about what's fair and
Michelle: what's not fair. I'm sure part of it also comes
Michelle: from coming here as an immigrant and figuring out how
Michelle: to fit in. Why do I have to chop off
Michelle: all of these parts of myself to fit into this
Michelle: mold so that you can still not see me as
Michelle: an equal? Like, that doesn't seem right.
Mangesh: That tension of identity. I know what she means.
Michelle: I didn't want my parents to meet people. I didn't
Michelle: want people to meet my grandparents. I was just very
Michelle: ashamed of everything related to my family, and that didn't
Michelle: really change until high school.
Mangesh: My parents were never an embarrassment to me, but sometimes my house could be. Like, do you really want to invite people just to explain the myths and religious iconography on your walls? Do you bring a tiffin with delicious rice and dal and pickles to the school cafeteria? Or do you beg your parents for a white bread pb&j and a juicebox because it makes life easier? There’s a constant question of how you bridge the person you are inside your home versus the person you have to be outside it; and how you explain and justify these two identities.
Michelle: It really helped that one summer we went back to China. And that was when I was really aware that I was like, oh, I didn't grow up in this country, but I feel so at home here. Why is that? Hearing my regional dialect spoken, having the food, seeing everybody dry their beans outside, all of these tiny little details reminded me that it was perfectly fine for my family to be the way that it was and that there was nothing to be ashamed of. That transitioned into a lot of pride.
Mangesh: I think that’s common too. Or at least I hope it is. That at some point, you stop worrying about the differences, and just own them. But that doesn’t always mean the world accepts you. Back in 2002, not long after 9/11, I moved to Birmingham, Alabama. The day I was leaving, my dad handed me a t-shirt with an American flag and an eagle on it. I’d already packed the car, had come in to give him a hug, and he just kind of handed it to me. Like it was this short-sleeved totem that could let everyone know I was American too. I knew his fears. In the weeks and months after 9/11 I remember the looks I’d get; the comments; the shoves, the ways people tried to instigate fights with me— things I know were only directed my way because of the color of my skin. Still, I tucked this t-shirt in my bag and never actually wore it. But I was thinking about that shirt again, and my dad’s idea of this weird form of protection, because Michelle started talking about this moment in time, from when Covid hit America forward, when anti-Asian hate became so prevalent and so visible. How the world inside her phone suddenly felt so much warmer and comforting than the one waiting outside her door.
Michelle: I also, like really didn't go out during COVID. Every
Michelle: time I did go out, it did make me super,
Michelle: super paranoid. Um, even now, just like going on the subway,
Michelle: like I still feel pretty anxious. I'll text my friends so that they know where I am, but now, it's not like “Hey, I'm in the city, keep an eye out for me.” It's like, “Hope I don't get pushed off the platform!”
Mangesh: I’m not scared for myself these days, not really. But I am scared for my friends: my Asian friends, my friends who are women. In 2021, there were 233 reported anti-Asian hate crimes in NYC alone. In New York City alone. Fifty-five percent of those were against women. It’s no surprise that we cling to these totems for strength. Because, no, I don’t believe that clutching onto a band, or a t-shirt, or a gem, or even a banana can protect you. But in the face of so much unearned anger, maybe that grip gives you the courage to keep moving forward.
Mangesh: Chapter two. Choosing teams. It’s funny to think about Michelle’s incredible moment of transcendence occurring in a stadium, because so many fans walk out of arenas feeling the same way. The high of watching your favorite team, cheering in unison with a crowd—there’s nothing like it. And that’s how Cesar Love feels.
Cesar: The game is a portal into something else.
Mangesh: Cesar is a baseball astrologer.
Cesar: I'm coming from the West Coast, San Francisco. I am
Cesar: part of the tribe of Giants fans and also part
Cesar: of the tribe of Oakland Athletics fans.
Mangesh: He loves stats and history. But somewhere along the way, he got frustrated. He couldn’t understand why his beloved team wasn’t winning despite an incredible lineup. And, out of curiosity, he wondered if astrology had an answer. Could Mercury be holding his team back from the success they surely deserved?
Cesar: You can understand the team by looking at the chart. The Yankees have Saturn in the first house. They have this sense of tradition and that sort of imposing intimidating quality. So yes, it does come across.
Mangesh: Caesar kept studying. He kept grasping for understanding, but it
Mangesh: just wasn't something he could be open about. Baseball astrology?
Mangesh: I mean, it sounds nuts. But then he met Andrea Mallis.
Andrea: I'm testing with Mercury retrograde, one, two, three, testing.
Cesar: I'm not quite sure if it was the nineties or
Cesar: early 2000s, but I met her at a meeting of
Cesar: the Society of American Baseball Research at the Oakland Coliseum.
Cesar: She was sitting next to me, and she asked the
Cesar: question to the general manager if they had ever used
Cesar: astrology in their analysis. And I thought, oh my god,
Cesar: this crowd is not going to be into this at all.
Cesar: But Andrea, who just is a lot more brazen about
Cesar: these things than I am, didn't care.
Mangesh: And when you talk to Andrea, you know exactly why.
Andrea: Here's the thing. I'm originally from New York. It takes
Andrea: a lot to intimidate me.
Mangesh: Despite the fact that people might balk, she has an impressive
Mangesh: list of clients.
Andrea: I was the astrologer during the A's Moneyball era. Obviously in terms of client confidentiality, I can't name names, but I have players, I have parents.
Mangesh: When I first heard about the Venn Diagram of baseball
Mangesh: and astrology, I was hoping we could get some predictions.
Andrea: You know, the sports astrology niche is something I totally
Andrea: believe in and see results from.
Mangesh: With the World Series just around the corner, I wondered
Mangesh: if Andrea or Cesar knew who was going to win.
Mangesh: But when we actually approached the question, they were reluctant
Mangesh: to say.
Andrea: I'm a cosmic umpire. You know, it's cosmic intel. I
Andrea: get most of the calls right.
Cesar: I don't like to make those kind of predictions anymore. I think that's a trap for astrologers. A lot of them like to make predictions and feel like they're smart and show other people they're smart and say, “There, there. I told you so.” And I'd rather just leave that, just watch things unfold.
Mangesh: So then how can they use their astrological knowledge practically?
Mangesh: For Andrea, it's about coaching players and teams through really
Mangesh: big decisions.
Andrea: Tim Lincecum, he was a pitcher for the Giants. I saw his dad, and he goes, “He's turning down five years, a hundred million, help!” And I like pounced on it, I go, Chris, what time was Tim born? And he told me what time he was born, and I said, you know, he's a Gemini he's restless. He's having a Saturn return between 28 and 30. When I explained it to Chris, it was sort of a permission giver. I mean, he still didn't want him to turn down five years, a hundred million, but it's like, alright, he's a Gemini, he's a little scattered. He wants to see what else is out there.
Mangesh: Andrea and Cesar know how to use statistics to reduce the game to numbers and calculations and take the emotion out of sporting decisions. They know how to use the numbers of astrology to that end too.
Andrea: I'll tell you, I've got four planets in Virgo, and on a good day, I'm a micromanaging control freak. I take a deep dive and I look at all the details. I just can't watch a game and relax. I wish I could. But you know, this is what makes me happy as a Virgo.
Mangesh: But for both of them, baseball is a link to
Mangesh: something grander.
Cesar: People don't realize this, baseball actually began as a pagan fertility ritual. You can study the archeology of baseball, and it's not a uniquely American artifact. It's been played on all continents for millennia. The game has sort of evolved to where we have it now with the diamond with 90 feet distances between bases, but its origins and its history are as old as the hills.
Mangesh: Something courses through players and fans, connecting them not just
Mangesh: to one another, but to the universe. It's like a
Mangesh: certain type of faith.
Cesar: People go to a baseball game, they just feel good.
Cesar: It's the way people feel when they go to the
Cesar: beach and they know they're in the presence of something awesome,
Cesar: the ocean. There is something just profoundly spiritual happening in
Cesar: the following of a baseball team. So I think of
Cesar: each team as a spiritual community.
Mangesh: They're our found families, just like the BTS ARMY.
Mangesh: Chapter three. It's not embarrassing, it's in your chart.
Janelle: This is a chart that has a lot of ambition,
Janelle: a lot of drive, and a lot of desire to achieve.
Mangesh: I’ve got our house astrologer, Janelle Belgrave, on the line here, and I’m just connecting her with Michelle. They’re doing it over Zoom, because Michelle happens to be in Texas this week.
Janelle: I do like law for you. The night house traditionally
Janelle: has connections to the law, to philosophy, to higher learning,
Janelle: to higher education, to international travel, putting information out into
Janelle: the world and receiving information on a grand scale.
Michelle: I don't know. I feel like you're really buttering me up with this like international travel talk. ‘Cause I'm like, Ooh, girl, tell me more about that. I wanna hear more about where I'm gonna be!
Mangesh: Michelle doesn't know if any of this is real, but
Mangesh: she's definitely game to hear it all. Her chart shows
Mangesh: innate leadership skills and troubleshooting skills. It's says she's incredibly
Mangesh: inquisitive in how she perceives and moves through the world.
Michelle: A lot of it rings true. Very spooky.
Mangesh: But even though the talk is flattering, there are these
Mangesh: moments when Michelle just disappears. She goes quiet, and I
Mangesh: can't tell what she's thinking. But as Janelle digs into family,
Mangesh: Michelle re-emerges.
Michelle: A lot of my interest in law is protecting cultures
Michelle: that are at risk of pretty much being trampled over
Michelle: or erased because of imperialism and globalization and authoritarianism.
Janelle: Maybe that's what's fueling you. You may come from a
Janelle: lineage that has people who have served in the military,
Janelle: or have come from countries have experienced war.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Janelle: So where is this story of origin kind of showing
Janelle: up for you? If any of these things are making
Janelle: sense so far.
Michelle: Yeah. I immigrated to the U.S. when I was, I think, three-ish, maybe slightly younger than three. My family, being Chinese, a few generations ago lived through Japanese attacks on like our villages and things like that.
Janelle: Okay. So even for you, maybe moving at a young age might have been disruptive, right? Scorpio as a sign also deals a lot with rejection, where you feel like you don't belong, or you feel like people are judging you or wanting to be different than what you are.
Michelle: Yes, that's definitely the classic immigrant story of like, you
Michelle: fit too much into the home culture that you left,
Michelle: and so then you don't fit into the new culture.
Michelle: And then you start assimilating as you get older, and
Michelle: then you come back home and your parents are like,
Michelle: what are they teaching you at school? You know what
Michelle: I mean?
Mangesh: It is a classic story, the one Michelle and I
Mangesh: and even Janelle as a first-gen Panamanian must have felt.
Mangesh: Though the fact that it's typical, it doesn't make you
Mangesh: feel any less.
Janelle: Here we are now in 2022. Your next phase is
Janelle: going to be the balsamic moon phase.
Michelle: Balsamic?
Mangesh: I've never heard of a balsamic moon, which sounds tasty,
Mangesh: but in astrological terms, it's actually the final sliver you
Mangesh: see of a moon before it begins a new phase.
Mangesh: And in sort of a poetic way, it relates to
Mangesh: your commitment to your destiny.
Janelle: If you're applying to schools and all that, I want you to be very cognizant, all right? If I'm gonna be doing this next journey, what parts of my life do I really need to let go of right now?
Michelle: Mmm.
Janelle: Because you can't walk into your new chapter, you know,
Janelle: kind of raggedy, right?
Michelle: Yes, so- it's embarrassing that you could sniff that out through my chart.
Janelle: Why is it embarrassing? It's in your chart.
Michelle: No, I love it. I love it.
Janelle: You're Mars and Scorpio. You're supposed to face your fears.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Janelle: There's an element of your chart that says you have to show up, but courage and fire when you feel frightened. All right?
Mangesh: Janelle is so clearly encouraging her to go ahead and apply.
Mangesh: She's used the stars to confirm that Michelle is built
Mangesh: to speak out on important issues and show up for
Mangesh: people who can't speak out for themselves. But there's still
Mangesh: something that's hindering Michelle, and I wonder what it is.
Mangesh: But before we get to that:
Janelle: So I think, let's move on to BTS, yeah?
Michelle: Yay!
Mangesh: Last summer, BTS released a strange video that sent shockwaves through the fandom. Their usually sunny demeanor shifted, and they began talking about how exhausted they were, how something needed to change. A few months later, news broke that they would begin their compulsory service in the South Korean military, enlisting in turns to serve two-year stints. And even though they'll have time for some solo work before they go, fans knew this was the moment they'd been dreading.
Janelle: As a group, they are heading into a full moon phase, and their full moon phase is going to be in July of next year. So full moons, like I said, can be like the culmination, all the fruits of our labor ripe on the vine.
Michelle: Mm-hmm.
Janelle: But also, full moons can talk about endings, too. Knowing that this is the top of the top for right now. And after this point, we know the decline is gonna come. Because this is just moon phases, right?
Michelle: Yeah, I guess- oh man, I, I, oh my god, my heart.
Janelle: Mm-hmm.
Michelle: There's a very selfish part of me that's like, no, I want you to keep making music. I want you to stay together. But I think more than that, I want to know that they are able to make the choices that they need to make.
Janelle: This might be one of the things that you might have to quote, unquote, let go during this balsamic phase, right? If this band decides that we're gonna take a hiatus or whatever the case is, you know, you may not be as involved, but they’re still gonna be part of your life, right? They're still together after many years, but go off and do their own thing and come back together every so often to enjoy performing.
Michelle: Yes.
Janelle: Yeah?
Michelle: BTS grandpas.
Mangesh: So, about boy bands. Even though K-pop is a $5 billion industry now, ruled by three major corporations and flooded with what the New Yorker referred to as “generous government support,” Michelle’s made me realize that BTS actually is different. The manager in charge of putting the band together allowed BTS’s members to write lyrics and suggest themes to address their biggest concerns. So the band’s first three albums, they speak to Korean youth. Trying to comfort them through the intense academic pressures that kids in the country face. And that theme of protection has infused their entire vibe.
Janelle: Okay, so here's your natal chart on the inside and on the outside it's BTS.
Michelle: Whoa!
Mangesh: Janelle does something I wasn’t expecting. She takes the BTS birth chart and layers it over Michelle’s chart to see the influence they’ll have on one another.
Janelle: I love that Mars sun and Jupiter and Gemini are in your 11th house. So bringing in possibilities for friendship and, and you know, group endeavors and collaborative things that might come in through the groups. I don't know if you have like fan groups or fan fiction groups or whatever it is. Something about them makes you feel like, I can do this, right? If I just keep going, or if I listen to this song while I do my applications, it'll be okay.
Michelle: I have! I have been listening to their songs, but you know, I've been so emotional lately that I can’t- I listen to some of their songs where they use older recordings and then I'll start crying and I'm like, okay, I can't do this application right now. I'm too emotional. Oh my god.
Janelle: And that's okay. That's good, right? It's good to cry. Make space.
Mangesh: Chapter four. The sound of metal. One of the things I’ve been thinking about is how with every generation it’s a little easier to fit in. Or it should be.
Alap: I mentioned to you, I'm in, I've been in therapy for three years. It's another reason why it's funny you're doing this show now because I can actually talk about a lot of these things without getting emotional. I've processed and I'm healing. It's really nice.
Mangesh: My cousin Alap is five years older than me. And, even though it’s only five years, the America he grew up in was so much harder than the one I experienced.
Alap: I remember they would literally say, oh, you're Indian. What
Alap: tribe are you? Navajo? Cherokee?
Mangesh: Yeah.
Alap: You look at Indians in America now, and we're the top 11 CEOs of the biggest 11 companies or whatever, and everybody in America is doing yoga and drinking chai at Starbucks. And there's, there's never a problem knowing like, what tribe you are now, you know. I say, “We're the tribe that took over the world, bro.”
Mangesh: Alap once told me, half-jokingly: “I’m like the coolest Indian you know!” And he’s right. I mean, even his name is cool.
Alap: Basically, the beginning of an Indian classical piece, the musicians are warming up, and they're just kind of vamping out on the three or four notes that they're going to be exploring in this piece. That section is called the Alap. it's strange that they knew I was gonna go into music because it's basically like naming your kid improv or something.
Mangesh: Ever since I’ve known him, he’s been surrounded by tapes and records, and by the time he was in college, he was producing albums. His band Dalek was kind of like Public Enemy meets My Bloody Valentine. One time I told a hip-hop head that Alap was my cousin, and he actually didn’t believe me. But I always just assumed Alap had it easy.
Alap: As soon as I got to New Jersey, age six, 1980, it was like a light switch. The very first day of school it started, it was- I don't want to get too graphic.
Mangesh: But tell me, 'cause, 'cause, I want to hear. I mean,
Mangesh: I can always cut out shit.
Alap: Sure. Okay. Well, you're gonna probably have to do some editing. From the age of basically six till about 13, I can just remember every time I woke up in the morning I had dread, you know, I had a massive anxiety. But we're Indians, we don't talk about it. We don't even know what that is in 1980, right? I'm six years old. And and basically as soon as I opened the door, girls are writing the n-word on my back. Um, you know, I'm getting beat up. Girls would spit on me, make fun of my clothes, make fun of my lunch. I would throw my lunch out ‘cause my parents gave me tiffin boxes with Indian food and these white people were eating bologna and cheese. And I literally would cry every night.
Mangesh: And as Alap dug deeper into music, finding solace in heavier and heavier sounds, it only gave the kids at school another reason to pick on him.
Alap: Heavy metal Hindu is what they used to say when I would get on the bus. ‘Cause I think like age 11, I started rocking, you know, I'd have like a Metallica Master of Puppets shirt with a jean jacket, but I would cut the sleeves off the jean jacket. So I guess they wanted to clown me, you know?
Mangesh: The abuse was intense. They’d pull at his shirt until it ripped. They’d tell him metal wasn’t for him. That not only did he not belong in town, but he didn’t belong as a fan. They told him he wasn’t allowed to have music—the one thing he truly loved.
Alap: That became a drive for me. And this is gonna sound arrogant as hell, but it just gave me a catalyst. I was like, you know what? I'm gonna do this white boy shit harder than they can do it. I'm gonna do it better and I'm gonna prove them all wrong.
Mangesh: Punk? Hip-hop? These were outsider scenes. It wasn’t just that Alap had this knack of knowing what’s next. It’s also, he felt safer in these places.
Alap: We didn't have a community where we felt safe just being our Indian selves. You know, we felt safe at the punk rock shows. We felt safe at the hip hop spots, break dancing. We felt safe with the skateboarders. In those scenes, back then, you know, you hung out with a bunch of non-Indians and figured out a way to survive.
Mangesh: And as much as music gave him an outlet, it
Mangesh: was also a coping mechanism.
Alap: I used to tour ten months of the year. I used to work 20 hours a day. I'd never stop because I didn't want to deal with my present. So I became kind of a workaholic and it fueled my entire career till I was 35. So I started to notice my mind is present. I feel really good now. I'm starting to heal. I can talk about these horrifying experiences and not even cry! I feel like the universe gets me, and I know this sounds real new agey or whatever, but-
Mangesh: I mean, it's an astrology podcast.
Alap: So, alright. You're talking about all these things happen internally as well as in the universe. It's, it's really strange, you know, and then we're musicians, right? So you're talking about repetition, loops [his words reverberate]. I mean, I grew up on hip-hop, club music. So you're talking about orbits here. You know, you're talking about rhythms, we're talking about vibrations, you know, shabda. The Hindu said the first element in creation when the Big Bang happened was sound.
Mangesh: That primordial sound? It’s Om. Maybe you’ve heard it chanted at a yoga class, or you’ve seen it printed on a tea label. But that drone—it’s supposed to connect us to the divine, like a direct line to the essence of the universe. Alap’s music has always built off this constant humming sound. However heavy the music gets, that scaffolding always connects back. It’s like a subtle FU. Like–how could anyone ever tell Alap he doesn’t belong in this scene, when his music is literally universal.
Mangesh: Chapter five. This is how you belong. Michelle and I
Mangesh: are chatting on Zoom and I'm trying to gauge how
Mangesh: the reading struck her.
Michelle: I have always been like a super skeptic. But in the moment I was like, shoot, man. Like, I definitely took everything to heart that she was saying. She started talking about BTS going through a tough time. And I was like, Oh no, no.
Mangesh: What was she saying about applying to schools and a
Mangesh: possible law career?
Michelle: I mean, part of it is, you know, we talked about the potential of a JD/PhD program, and she kind of gave me a little kick in the butt and was like, Listen, you need to be courageous, because that is what your chart is telling you to do. If it's right for you, you just gotta do it. Even if it's like nerve wracking.
Mangesh: Prior to this, I know that when Vahini and I were talking, she had said that like, You are super smart, but were hesitant to apply to law school. And everyone wants you to apply already. Like, you have to get on with the applications or stuff like that. So what was going on then?
Michelle: Before I graduated college, I was a lot more sure about like, law is the path that I'm going on. After that my cousin got really, really sick with cancer. And then my grandparents who had been living with us ended up returning to China. And, you know, we knew they wouldn't be coming back. And then my, my brother was having a really hard time with all of it.
Mangesh: Of course Michelle couldn’t focus on applying. Or even think about moving away. Michelle is all about family; she lives her values.
Michelle: All of those things, those ambitions felt so far away while all of the really, really like hard shit I had to witness every night.
Mangesh: And whatever qualities Michelle sees in ARMY, whatever solace she gets from this community of fans beyond the music, this feeling that BTS is looking out for her, that it’s a culture where everyone belongs, that there’s an emphasis on showing up and being kind—it brings out the best in her.
Michelle: I think I needed the time to like grow and
Michelle: figure out how to bring like all of these different
Michelle: pieces of my life together.
Mangesh: I’m thinking back on a story from when we first met. She told me about this time she and her best friend traveled to LA to attend a BTS concert. And just as they walk into the venue, Michelle spots an older woman a few sections over who looks petrified.
Michelle: She very much looked like an Asian granny. I would
Michelle: help any granny, but like especially when it's an Asian
Michelle: grandma who looks like my own grandma. I'm like, oh
Michelle: my god, we have to go help her.
Mangesh: They go over, ask if she's alright.
Michelle: And she's like, my seats are up there. I came
Michelle: all by myself, but I'm too scared to go up
Michelle: because I didn't realize it would be so high.
Mangesh: So Michelle, being Michelle, walks the sweet grandma all the
Mangesh: way up the steep staircase. And before she and her
Mangesh: friend leave, they make the woman a promise.
Michelle: At the end of the show, just sit in your spot,
Michelle: hang out, and we'll walk you back down.
Mangesh: Then they find their seats and enjoy the concert, or
Mangesh: try to. They can't stop worrying. Every few minutes they
Mangesh: look over to check on Grandma, and it turns out
Mangesh: there is no need.
Michelle: She was doing just fine.
Mangesh: She was having the time of her life. She's vibing
Mangesh: and dancing and making friends with other ARMYs.
Michelle: After the show, we all walked down together and we're talking,
Michelle: and she told us that she flew by herself from Vegas.
Michelle: So I was like, oh my god, Grandma!
Mangesh: To me, this is the opposite of Alap’s story. Michelle spotted an older woman who was clearly a BTS fan, and instead of saying, “You don’t belong,” she welcomed her. And even if BTS doesn’t stay together, they’ve already built something lasting.
Michelle: I still believe in my heart of hearts, BTS is not gonna break up, because they're not just a group, they're a team. They're a family. And families stay together. Ohana and everything.
Mangesh: I don’t get any of Michelle’s boy band references, but I do know Ohana, because I love that line in Lilo and Stitch, where Lilo says: Ohana means family, and family means no one gets left behind. Because, in a sense, everything Michelle cares about is family. The little tribe she has in her home; the much bigger one she has online.
Michelle: I think it comes out of just me wanting to
Michelle: learn more about the world so that I can make
Michelle: it suck a little bit less.
Mangesh: Look, I haven’t been recruited to ARMY, but I’m still glad BTS exists. I mean, why wouldn’t we want a world full of BTS-es of all kinds reminding us that we all matter? Especially if we get a world full of Michelles out of it.
Mangesh: Thank you so much for listening. Before I let you go, just a few housekeeping notes. One, my friend Sybil listened to the Reagan episode, and then she sent me this incredible quote from the New York Times, which I just have to share. It goes, “After Mr. Regan divulged Ms. Quigley's astrological role, Mrs. Reagan never spoke to her again. Ms. Quigley likened the slight to buying a Picasso and putting it in your living room and putting a piece of tape over the signature,” which is incredible.
Mangesh: And second, you know, I do not believe in astrology, but our house astrologer, Janelle Belgrave, predicted this show would be delivered in two parts. And that's exactly what's happening. My other astrologer, Dr. Kumar, said things will get way better for this show after January 18th. So we are following the stars. We're taking a break for the holidays, throwing you a few super fun bonus episodes in between. And then we will be back with the second half of Skyline Drive starting mid-January. But if you like the show, please, please review it in the Apple Store. It makes our moms and us and our investors all very, very happy. Okay. That's it for the updates. Anna, hit me with some new music.
Mangesh: Nice. Skyline Drive is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts. This show is hosted and written by me, Mangesh Hattikudur. But this show would not have made it to your ears if a whole bunch of people weren't carrying me. Starting with Mary Phillips Sandy, our supervising producer. I am not gonna join ARMY, but if someone starts a Mary P-S fan club, you know I'm in.
Mangesh: Mitra Bonshahi is our wonderful senior producer and set up so many of these interviews. Mark Lotto is the very best story editor who took my jumbled mess of words and created a story out of it. Even though he edited out the bits about Nickelodeon and Double Dare—you can ask me about those later. This episode was also produced and mixed by the insanely talented Anna Rubanova, with scoring as always from Botany. Check out his SoundCloud.
Mangesh: I need to thank my son Henry, who jumped on the mic for the warning. He doesn't have SoundCloud yet, but look for it in a year or so. It's coming. My big cousin Alap is just the best. You can check out all his latest work at internetandweed.com. That's right. His label is called Internet and Weed, and the music is dope. Speaking of incredible music, I’ve got to thank my friends at Azadi Records, Mumbai's hottest label. Also my pal HEEMS and my sister Shanta Hattikudur for her bhajans, which she sang on this. As always, we'll link to our mix tapes in the show notes. Oh, and I'm also gonna link to all the astrologers in this broadcast, including Dr. Divya, the numerologist. She was so kind and so wonderful, and she gave me so much of her time. Janelle Belgrave, who we love here. Cesar and Andrea, the incredible baseball astrologers, and of course the delightful Dr. Kumar.
Mangesh: Additional production and research support from the wonderful Dhruv Shiva Rao; Lizzie Jacobs, my beautiful wife; Suman “the most talented person I know” Bakshi; and my cousin, Arjun Bakshi. This show is executive produced from iHeart by my good pals Nikki Ettore and Katrina Norvell. Also gotta thank my partners from Kaleidoscope who were all okay with me taking this break: Oz Woloshyn, Kate Osborn, Costas Linos and Vahini Shori. Special thanks to my friends at iHeart, Shata and Saurabh, Rachel Strom, my family everywhere. And as always, a big thank you to my Amma and my dad, Lalita and Umesh, who I thank my lucky stars for. I know you have so many podcasts to choose from. I just wanna say thank you for listening.