WEBVTT - Joymaxxing

0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:16.239
<v Speaker 1>How much juice for you, sort of squeezing out of life.

0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.200
<v Speaker 2>In those young years, I was kind of a repressed guy.

0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:26.360
<v Speaker 2>I thought of myself as a loner, and like many

0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:32.240
<v Speaker 2>good Jewish boys, I threw myself into my studies and

0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:36.040
<v Speaker 2>so I didn't live a while the crazy life, but

0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:41.240
<v Speaker 2>I think I did internalize the lesson that one needs

0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.440
<v Speaker 2>to make the most of life, and that it can

0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:50.920
<v Speaker 2>be cut off because of political horrors and war or

0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.720
<v Speaker 2>natural disasters illness. So we have to, you know, in

0:00:55.760 --> 0:01:00.280
<v Speaker 2>the Latin phrase carpa dm momente maury, I have a

0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.040
<v Speaker 2>hold of life, see us live and remember death.

0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:13.120
<v Speaker 1>I'm mongas shittigular. This is Skyline Drive how to Live Forever.

0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.639
<v Speaker 1>In making this show, I talked to so many people

0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.479
<v Speaker 1>who were certain you could live forever, and people who

0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.920
<v Speaker 1>wanted to live forever. But there was really only one

0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:42.240
<v Speaker 1>person who thought you should want to live forever, but

0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:44.679
<v Speaker 1>didn't feel the need to bring up the singularity or

0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:49.160
<v Speaker 1>cyborgs or wanting to see Mars. Someone who thought living

0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.320
<v Speaker 1>was its own reason. Someone who started with joy, which

0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:59.000
<v Speaker 1>definitely appeals to me. John Fisher is Distinguished Professor of

0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:03.040
<v Speaker 1>Philosophy at the University of California Riverside. In fact, he's

0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.280
<v Speaker 1>the first philosopher to hold the title of university professor

0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:10.800
<v Speaker 1>within the UC system. In all those schools from Berkeley

0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:14.520
<v Speaker 1>to San Diego, there are literally thousands of professors, but

0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:19.080
<v Speaker 1>only eight university professors. So John's pretty special. And you

0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:22.360
<v Speaker 1>might think someone with that post might be pretentious or

0:02:22.440 --> 0:02:26.600
<v Speaker 1>full of themselves, but John is anything but. He spent

0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:30.040
<v Speaker 1>the past five decades pondering free will, ethics, and the

0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.760
<v Speaker 1>metaphysics of death. In twenty twelve, he led the Templeton

0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:38.880
<v Speaker 1>Foundation's Immortality Project, exploring the science, philosophy, and theology of death,

0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.160
<v Speaker 1>immortality and near death experiences, and he went head to

0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.040
<v Speaker 1>head with Cambridge philosopher Stephen Cave in a book where

0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.440
<v Speaker 1>they each took opposite positions on whether you should live forever.

0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:53.280
<v Speaker 1>You might remember Cave's nickname, People do call me a

0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:57.960
<v Speaker 1>mortality curmudgeon. By contrast, John Fisher is a longevity booster,

0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.400
<v Speaker 1>which makes me curious why, Like, what is in it

0:03:02.440 --> 0:03:05.320
<v Speaker 1>for him? So many people in longevity have an angle,

0:03:05.480 --> 0:03:08.760
<v Speaker 1>so I was sure he had one too, And I

0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.359
<v Speaker 1>thought the best way to figure it out was to

0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.320
<v Speaker 1>start at the very beginning. So I'd love to hear

0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.160
<v Speaker 1>how you got so interested in ethics and what led

0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:19.040
<v Speaker 1>you to philosophy.

0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:22.760
<v Speaker 2>I grew up in a Jewish family and my father's

0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:28.280
<v Speaker 2>father had died in the Holocaust. My father had come

0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:34.880
<v Speaker 2>from Europe during the Holocaust, and unfortunately his father was

0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:40.240
<v Speaker 2>not able to leave Austro Hungary at that time. At

0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:44.400
<v Speaker 2>first they hoped that he would come home. Eventually it

0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:48.480
<v Speaker 2>was clear that he wouldn't and I saw my grandmother

0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:51.560
<v Speaker 2>waiting for letters from the German government and the tremendous

0:03:51.600 --> 0:03:57.040
<v Speaker 2>sadness that that involved. It got me started thinking about

0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:02.080
<v Speaker 2>both ethics and death, premature death. Then my father was

0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:06.280
<v Speaker 2>a physician, a cardiologist, and that was back when physicians

0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:09.160
<v Speaker 2>would make house calls and he would leave the house

0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:13.120
<v Speaker 2>at two am sometimes and come home the next morning,

0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:15.600
<v Speaker 2>and he would let us know what happened to the patient,

0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.279
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes they would die.

0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.400
<v Speaker 1>When your dad would make these house calls and he

0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.400
<v Speaker 1>would come back from these visits where a patient just

0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.520
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't make it, what was the mood in the house.

0:04:28.800 --> 0:04:34.560
<v Speaker 2>It became almost normal, or you almost get used to

0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:39.279
<v Speaker 2>death in a way. And my father used to say

0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:43.920
<v Speaker 2>life is for the living, and so all of This

0:04:44.400 --> 0:04:49.000
<v Speaker 2>got me started thinking about death? Can it be avoided?

0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.520
<v Speaker 2>My first tea job was at Yale University and I

0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.240
<v Speaker 2>was asked to teach an introduction to philosophy. And I

0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.320
<v Speaker 2>said to my chair what should I talk about? He said,

0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:12.479
<v Speaker 2>talk about anything you want? And so I thought that

0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:17.280
<v Speaker 2>these topics are of perennial human interest, and I've got

0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:21.560
<v Speaker 2>to be able to reach the students talking about these topics.

0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.680
<v Speaker 2>And so that got me started professionally.

0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:28.920
<v Speaker 1>So how do you sort of take a path forward?

0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:36.440
<v Speaker 2>Right? I was familiar with mainly contemporary Anglo American discussions

0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.760
<v Speaker 2>of death and the meaning of life, and there was

0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:43.760
<v Speaker 2>a classic work by the New York University philosopher Thomas Nagel,

0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.760
<v Speaker 2>who's now retired but still active. It was called Death

0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:54.799
<v Speaker 2>a Paper, and he discussed the attempts by philosophers going

0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:59.800
<v Speaker 2>back to the Greeks and specifically Epicurus, to convince us

0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:04.360
<v Speaker 2>the death being nothing to us, can't be a bad

0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.680
<v Speaker 2>thing for the individual who dies. It could be a

0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:10.920
<v Speaker 2>bad thing for their loved ones. But according to Epicurus

0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:17.080
<v Speaker 2>and his followers, death itself, as opposed to die, can't

0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:20.400
<v Speaker 2>be bad for the individual who has died because they're

0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:25.719
<v Speaker 2>no more suffering, no unpleasant experiences on the secular assumption

0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:31.039
<v Speaker 2>that there's no afterlift. So I delved into that material,

0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.800
<v Speaker 2>and then I talked about the opposite immortality. Can we

0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:39.159
<v Speaker 2>actually escape death entirely? I was fascinated by all this.

0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:45.240
<v Speaker 2>I read a famous paper by another contemporary then contemporary philosopher,

0:06:45.400 --> 0:06:48.840
<v Speaker 2>Bernard Williams. He wrote a famous paper in which he

0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:55.200
<v Speaker 2>argued that living forever would not be something that any

0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:59.760
<v Speaker 2>human being should choose, And so that's where I started.

0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:02.919
<v Speaker 2>I taught that article, and I thought, this has to

0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.320
<v Speaker 2>be wrong. This is such an extreme view. I can

0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.599
<v Speaker 2>see why you wouldn't want to live forever if you

0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:14.040
<v Speaker 2>had terrible chronic illness, or you were unable to feed

0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:18.400
<v Speaker 2>yourself where you didn't have adequate medical attention, or if

0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:24.400
<v Speaker 2>the environment was polluted and dirty, but under favorable circumstances,

0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.680
<v Speaker 2>I thought it was just a no brainer that you'd

0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:30.280
<v Speaker 2>want to live much, much, much longer than we actually live.

0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:44.960
<v Speaker 1>I was pretty fascinated by this. When I us first

0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.040
<v Speaker 1>told this cal professor wanted to live forever, I was

0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.880
<v Speaker 1>thinking he'd be some Ein Rand type, a total individualist,

0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:54.360
<v Speaker 1>someone who believes that there are no limits on what

0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.680
<v Speaker 1>a person should be able to do, but starting where

0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:01.360
<v Speaker 1>he started, with his grandmother impertly waiting for news that

0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:05.160
<v Speaker 1>never came of her husband's survival. Knowing how cruelly and

0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.280
<v Speaker 1>tragically that life had been cut short, and from his

0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:12.720
<v Speaker 1>father's experience of coming home defeated by death, I couldn't

0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:17.160
<v Speaker 1>help but think differently about his stance. I wondered, how

0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:20.200
<v Speaker 1>did his pro longevity positions show up in his life?

0:08:20.960 --> 0:08:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Was he eating ashraganda and his overnight oats or taking

0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.360
<v Speaker 1>creatine before hitting the gym? So I asked him one

0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.920
<v Speaker 1>question I've been asking everyone is what do you do

0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:34.679
<v Speaker 1>for your own health? Are there any things you've done

0:08:34.720 --> 0:08:36.800
<v Speaker 1>to expand your health span?

0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.360
<v Speaker 2>I believe in health span and what I call joy span,

0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:45.440
<v Speaker 2>which some people who want to live forever devote so

0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:47.800
<v Speaker 2>much time to energy to their health that I'm not

0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:51.319
<v Speaker 2>sure that they enjoy life. But I think the capacity

0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.720
<v Speaker 2>for joy is important. You know, Over the course of

0:08:55.760 --> 0:09:00.400
<v Speaker 2>my life, unfortunately, I did a lot to worsen my health,

0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.640
<v Speaker 2>or at least to make my long term prognosis not great.

0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:07.760
<v Speaker 2>I used to be really overweight and sedentary, and I

0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:11.840
<v Speaker 2>drank regularly and seven years ago, I had a stroke

0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.880
<v Speaker 2>and that was a real wake up cough. I'm really

0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:20.440
<v Speaker 2>now devoted to doing whatever I can to avoid a

0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.040
<v Speaker 2>second stroke and to live as long as I can

0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.040
<v Speaker 2>with a high quality life.

0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.800
<v Speaker 1>In the midst of our conversation, I heard a sudden,

0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.440
<v Speaker 1>yowing sound. John's daughter Zoe was visiting, and one of

0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.400
<v Speaker 1>her cats had knocked into the room where John was recording,

0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:39.240
<v Speaker 1>so he started calling for help to remove the intruder,

0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:41.760
<v Speaker 1>at which point one of his casts decided to join

0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:48.080
<v Speaker 1>the fun and well feline chaos.

0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:52.400
<v Speaker 2>And Zoe, Okay, I'm doing something where I need total quiet. Okay,

0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:55.880
<v Speaker 2>so Vinny can't be in there. They heard that. Oh okay,

0:09:55.920 --> 0:10:00.760
<v Speaker 2>now another cat has come in. Zoe, all right, I'll

0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:07.960
<v Speaker 2>just be right back. We have six six cats. No no, no,

0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:09.080
<v Speaker 2>oh no.

0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.880
<v Speaker 1>I love the idea of thinking about these high philosophical

0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:16.640
<v Speaker 1>questions and a cat wandering through. I feel like cats

0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:17.920
<v Speaker 1>and kids love.

0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:22.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, I can tell you I've been asked to

0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.800
<v Speaker 2>give a keynote lecture to a conference on the Meaning

0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.480
<v Speaker 2>of life at the University of Oklahoma at the end

0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.199
<v Speaker 2>of March. And I'm working on my lecture and at

0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.160
<v Speaker 2>the same time I'm reading a book by John Gray,

0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:39.559
<v Speaker 2>an Oxford philosopher, called Cats and the Meaning of Life.

0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:44.360
<v Speaker 2>So I've been thinking about that a lot in between

0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:46.720
<v Speaker 2>thinking of cats and the Meaning of Life and cleaning

0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:47.760
<v Speaker 2>their litter boxes.

0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.640
<v Speaker 1>And then I ask a question, you know, just asking

0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:02.120
<v Speaker 1>for a friend. If you were talking to an individual

0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:07.520
<v Speaker 1>and they're not interested in a radically extended or an

0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:10.280
<v Speaker 1>immortal life, what would you tell them or ask them

0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:11.199
<v Speaker 1>to consider.

0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:16.720
<v Speaker 2>As we get older, we in fact suffer from the

0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.920
<v Speaker 2>afflictions of older age. Even if we're in good shape.

0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:23.520
<v Speaker 2>Our memories are less reliable, and we're less able to

0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:27.360
<v Speaker 2>move around without pain. And I think people tend to

0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:32.520
<v Speaker 2>extrapolate and say, gosh, if I'm suffering this much now,

0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:34.559
<v Speaker 2>it's just going to get worse and worse. And perhaps

0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.480
<v Speaker 2>we've seen elderly parents who we might use the word

0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:42.360
<v Speaker 2>gone downhill in terms of their health and then their

0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.520
<v Speaker 2>psychological well being, and we just don't want that, And

0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.960
<v Speaker 2>I totally understand, But I would ask the individual to

0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:56.840
<v Speaker 2>imagine reasonably comfortable external surroundings and good health, good help,

0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:02.280
<v Speaker 2>maybe not perfect health. Ask them whether that would change

0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:07.760
<v Speaker 2>the equation, and remind them that there are still even

0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:11.280
<v Speaker 2>if life is different now, and even in my seventies

0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:16.119
<v Speaker 2>I realized life is different, there's still wonderful, wonderful, rewarding

0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:20.800
<v Speaker 2>activities that give our life meaning. And the more time

0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.000
<v Speaker 2>we have, the more opportunities we have to pursue those

0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:27.319
<v Speaker 2>things that give our lives meaning.

0:12:28.080 --> 0:12:30.880
<v Speaker 1>As we think about these lives that may extend to

0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:35.040
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and fifty, how would you envision that life

0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:39.679
<v Speaker 1>and the way that we sort of reinterpret those chapters

0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:40.920
<v Speaker 1>we might not be expecting.

0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's hard, but it would be the same as

0:12:45.120 --> 0:12:50.360
<v Speaker 2>our current finite or you could say mortal lives. In

0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 2>a lot of ways, you'd want to pursue things you love, activities, athletic, intellectual,

0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:04.440
<v Speaker 2>artistic friendshipsationships, love those things that give us meaning. You

0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:08.920
<v Speaker 2>would still want to avoid pain and suffering and loneliness

0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.880
<v Speaker 2>and depression. So in many ways life would be the same.

0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.160
<v Speaker 2>It would be different though in that we would have

0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 2>much more time. Part of that would then change expectations

0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.880
<v Speaker 2>and friendships and perhaps marriages. If you just think of

0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:34.000
<v Speaker 2>contracts and legal arrangements we make now in terms of life,

0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:40.080
<v Speaker 2>insurance and pensions and other arrangements, we'd probably have to

0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:45.520
<v Speaker 2>rethink all those things. Could a marriage last one hundred

0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:50.079
<v Speaker 2>and sixty years? Could a marriage last six thousand years?

0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:56.360
<v Speaker 2>Interesting questions. Even in our mortal lives as we lead

0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.520
<v Speaker 2>them now, marriage can be challenging. I mean, the statistics

0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.760
<v Speaker 2>are what about fifty percent of marriages and in divorce,

0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.560
<v Speaker 2>and even the ones that are incredibly successful have they

0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.160
<v Speaker 2>evolve over time and they have to be spiced up,

0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:15.559
<v Speaker 2>as we say, from time to time. So bottom line,

0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.480
<v Speaker 2>we'd have to ask the question, would there be enough

0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:24.160
<v Speaker 2>that's the same and that's good to make it really

0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.960
<v Speaker 2>worthy of choice to live for one hundred and sixty years.

0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:30.160
<v Speaker 2>I think it could be, but I agree it would

0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:31.280
<v Speaker 2>be very different.

0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.360
<v Speaker 1>Then. Just as doctor will Maher had brought up the

0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.680
<v Speaker 1>two worm problem, that we humans might divide into two species,

0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:46.480
<v Speaker 1>one that'll live forever and one that'll live out are

0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:50.040
<v Speaker 1>short and mortal lives in tough environments, John Fisher took

0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.480
<v Speaker 1>me to a place I'd never considered when thinking about

0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:53.880
<v Speaker 1>the possibility of living forever.

0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:59.960
<v Speaker 2>In terms of the social issues, I think we could

0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:06.360
<v Speaker 2>imagine a world in which many people are immortal in

0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:12.360
<v Speaker 2>the sense of radical life extension, and we do not

0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.479
<v Speaker 2>allow them to have children that would be a requirement,

0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:21.240
<v Speaker 2>because otherwise, if there are a significant number of people

0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.040
<v Speaker 2>who are immortal and they can have children and their

0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:27.680
<v Speaker 2>children can be immortal, there will be increasing pressure on

0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:32.280
<v Speaker 2>the environment and that will cause deterioration of the environment

0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:35.720
<v Speaker 2>and social catastrophe.

0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:38.920
<v Speaker 1>We have to take a quick break, but when we

0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.080
<v Speaker 1>come back, John explains how the fear of death is

0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:45.360
<v Speaker 1>similar to a fear of boredom and why do you

0:15:45.400 --> 0:16:19.120
<v Speaker 1>find certain longevity influencers so off putting. Stay tuned, Welcome

0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:22.080
<v Speaker 1>back to this mini bonus episode of Skyline Drive How

0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.760
<v Speaker 1>to Live Forever. I'm speaking with the distinguished philosopher John Fisher,

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.720
<v Speaker 1>and just as a heads up, the conversation you're about

0:16:28.760 --> 0:16:33.400
<v Speaker 1>to hear includes talk of suicide and also Brian Johnson's genitals.

0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.760
<v Speaker 1>I'm so sorry for the last part. I want to

0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.920
<v Speaker 1>ask a question about suicide because there is some suicide

0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.280
<v Speaker 1>in my family and I was curious, do you think

0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:48.280
<v Speaker 1>if radical life extension, or this idea of being immortal happens, like,

0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:51.120
<v Speaker 1>will we change our perceptions about this idea of tapping out.

0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Some people have suggested that you'd be losing so much

0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:01.280
<v Speaker 2>more if you have the prospects of living forever, and

0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:06.199
<v Speaker 2>you realize there are prospects for cure and improvement of

0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:10.359
<v Speaker 2>whatever is bothering you, maybe it would just be a

0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.560
<v Speaker 2>tremendous deterrent to choosing that you would be losing so

0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:16.720
<v Speaker 2>much against that is the idea that if you're really

0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:21.280
<v Speaker 2>suffering often you don't think there'll be any chance for improvement,

0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.879
<v Speaker 2>then there's much more to lose by choosing immortality. So

0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.560
<v Speaker 2>I think that they might kind of cancel out. We

0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:34.160
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't accept a double standard when we're evaluating mortal lives

0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.720
<v Speaker 2>and immortal lives, and in our mortal lives, I think

0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:43.800
<v Speaker 2>it's important that we develop mechanisms for a physician assisted suicide.

0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:48.240
<v Speaker 2>I have seen too many individuals in the end states

0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.800
<v Speaker 2>of Alzheimer's, including my mother and other loved ones with

0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.359
<v Speaker 2>advanced cancer, in which I just think it's a crime,

0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.280
<v Speaker 2>frankly to not give them the opportunit unity to select

0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:05.399
<v Speaker 2>their own way of dying. And so I think it

0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.120
<v Speaker 2>should be the same. In an immortal life.

0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.280
<v Speaker 1>The end of life is an ultimate deadline and it

0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:14.639
<v Speaker 1>forces certain actions and things, and so like in an

0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:19.160
<v Speaker 1>extended life, can you or how do you get that propulsion?

0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.240
<v Speaker 2>I guess they're different reasons why we want to get

0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:27.880
<v Speaker 2>off the couch and be active in our lives athletically

0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.520
<v Speaker 2>or in terms of our careers, or meeting people for

0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:37.000
<v Speaker 2>romantic or close friendships or collegial relationships. Death is not

0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:41.639
<v Speaker 2>the only reason we care about these things. The limitations

0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:47.480
<v Speaker 2>of time are not the only propulsive or motivating factors.

0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.720
<v Speaker 2>As matter of fact, many people think the fear of

0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:53.760
<v Speaker 2>boredom is just as bad as the fear of death,

0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.280
<v Speaker 2>or many people think it's very similar, because when you're bored,

0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.239
<v Speaker 2>you just are an interesting than anything. Nothing grabs your

0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:04.560
<v Speaker 2>attention in a way that makes you want to get

0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.520
<v Speaker 2>actively involved. Now death is like that too, although it's

0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.159
<v Speaker 2>a more extreme version of it. So I think what

0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:16.840
<v Speaker 2>gives us energy is not just the sense of finity,

0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.840
<v Speaker 2>but it's wanting to do what we love and wanting

0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:36.400
<v Speaker 2>to avoid what we hate.

0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.280
<v Speaker 1>I have that feeling when I go for a swim

0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:41.480
<v Speaker 1>in the ocean. I think I've just been comfortably floating

0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:44.159
<v Speaker 1>and swimming a bit, and then I look back at

0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.679
<v Speaker 1>the shore and see I've drifted much farther out than

0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:50.919
<v Speaker 1>I'd realized. And so it makes me wonder should we

0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:54.119
<v Speaker 1>all be doing everything we can swapping blood and taking

0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.240
<v Speaker 1>hundreds of supplements.

0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:01.719
<v Speaker 2>I'm in the big tent of pro launche people radical

0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:06.840
<v Speaker 2>life extension. But interestingly, the people who turn me off

0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.240
<v Speaker 2>or for whom I have most of days, are in

0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:13.520
<v Speaker 2>this camp. I think the people who are quite conservative

0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.679
<v Speaker 2>about life extension and want to focus our resources and

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:21.199
<v Speaker 2>energy on the problems we have. I can deal with that.

0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.920
<v Speaker 2>I think it's too conservative because often it's just an

0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.880
<v Speaker 2>apology for the status quo, and we get a lot

0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:30.480
<v Speaker 2>by reaching farther than maybe we have a right to

0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.280
<v Speaker 2>hope to achieve. But I can deal with that. But

0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:38.199
<v Speaker 2>the people like Brian Johnson who go to these extremes

0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:43.440
<v Speaker 2>in terms of the use of resources. Frankly, I believe

0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:48.760
<v Speaker 2>he measures his penis and maybe his erection every morning

0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:49.840
<v Speaker 2>or every day.

0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:51.960
<v Speaker 1>Through the night. The number of erections he has a

0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:53.440
<v Speaker 1>night is like account.

0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:58.600
<v Speaker 2>Oh, well, maybe I'm just jealous, but I just think

0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:03.359
<v Speaker 2>that that's totally off putting. It's just taking it to

0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:08.560
<v Speaker 2>an extreme. Also, the cryogenics stuff, to me, I mean,

0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:13.360
<v Speaker 2>if you have that much money, why not devote resources

0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.040
<v Speaker 2>to solving the problems we have now or helping the

0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.280
<v Speaker 2>people who don't even have enough food to eat or

0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:24.000
<v Speaker 2>adequate medical care. Now, of course you might say, well,

0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:26.919
<v Speaker 2>if you're a billionaire, you can afford to do both.

0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:31.920
<v Speaker 2>But what I would say is, we have pressing problems now,

0:21:32.960 --> 0:21:41.439
<v Speaker 2>and by doing interesting innovative research that seeks to solve

0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 2>the problems that cause us to die early, that's great,

0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:51.879
<v Speaker 2>that's great. But to reach for possibility of uploading and

0:21:52.880 --> 0:21:59.120
<v Speaker 2>cryogenic preservation and the kind of extreme body hacking that

0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:02.560
<v Speaker 2>you see put me off. I think I'm somewhat in between.

0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:09.000
<v Speaker 2>Ray Kurtzweil apparently he takes one hundred or two hundred

0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:15.960
<v Speaker 2>prescription pills and supplements envitamins every day in an attempt

0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.840
<v Speaker 2>to live long enough that will achieve what he calls

0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:22.280
<v Speaker 2>the singularity, or a situation in which will be superrational

0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.760
<v Speaker 2>and be able to upload ourselves. And Aubrey de Gray,

0:22:26.000 --> 0:22:30.440
<v Speaker 2>another longevity guy, thinks that within thirty to fifty years

0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.080
<v Speaker 2>we will have solved the problems that the seven major

0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:38.160
<v Speaker 2>reasons why we die early, cancer, Alzheimer's, art disease. These

0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:44.440
<v Speaker 2>people are radically out of touch with reality. We will

0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.920
<v Speaker 2>not achieve those goals in thirty or fifty years, or

0:22:48.200 --> 0:22:52.920
<v Speaker 2>in any of our lifetimes. The adolescent quality of it

0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:53.679
<v Speaker 2>bothers me.

0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.879
<v Speaker 1>You know, I read this quote about you that says

0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:01.600
<v Speaker 1>fish equips that the vampire as populating American movies and

0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:06.119
<v Speaker 1>television series show quote that achieving immortality by a certain

0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:10.040
<v Speaker 1>means having to suck someone else's blood can be unjust

0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:14.080
<v Speaker 1>or problematic. So talk to me a little bit about

0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:18.080
<v Speaker 1>the ethics of if you could live forever or for

0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:20.720
<v Speaker 1>a long time, but have to do it by some

0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:22.880
<v Speaker 1>means of either hurting or draining someone else.

0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:26.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, excellent, man, that's what I think the vampire literature.

0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:29.800
<v Speaker 2>One thing it brings out. I started thinking about these

0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.280
<v Speaker 2>issues when I was teaching Bernard Williams famous article, and

0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:37.160
<v Speaker 2>I saw so many really brilliant philosophers agreed with him.

0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:40.600
<v Speaker 2>It was almost like a knee jerk reaction, because Bernard

0:23:40.600 --> 0:23:46.280
<v Speaker 2>Williams is very smart, excellent, insightful philosopher. It resonated with people,

0:23:46.400 --> 0:23:49.320
<v Speaker 2>but it didn't with me so much. And his view

0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:53.640
<v Speaker 2>was there's something intrinsic or inside us, something that's part

0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:58.720
<v Speaker 2>of human nature, which is such that we would inevitably

0:24:00.119 --> 0:24:05.200
<v Speaker 2>integrate and unravel if we had a radically extended life.

0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:09.480
<v Speaker 2>Reminded me of my stepdaughter who would begin to unravel

0:24:09.520 --> 0:24:13.520
<v Speaker 2>after eight hours in the station wagon, and then certainly

0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:16.800
<v Speaker 2>by twenty three hours across country, she would have totally

0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:29.480
<v Speaker 2>unraveled and disintegrated. I just didn't believe that the social

0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:34.440
<v Speaker 2>problems are the most important for human beings. The intellectual

0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:38.840
<v Speaker 2>issues aren't deeply, profoundly interesting to me and to many people,

0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:45.040
<v Speaker 2>But in terms of human importance, we have to first

0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:51.840
<v Speaker 2>solve the problems of global climate change and increasingly problematic

0:24:52.480 --> 0:24:57.880
<v Speaker 2>deterioration of our environment before we can really seriously consider

0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 2>the possibilities of radically extended lives. They won't be feasible

0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:13.959
<v Speaker 2>practical options unless we can first address environmental concerns and

0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:22.040
<v Speaker 2>also the social inequities and injustices that currently exist all

0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:25.159
<v Speaker 2>over the world and certainly in the United States. We

0:25:25.280 --> 0:25:32.720
<v Speaker 2>have to address those, or the resources for achieving greater

0:25:32.840 --> 0:25:37.680
<v Speaker 2>and greater longevity and maybe even a kind of immortality

0:25:38.480 --> 0:25:42.560
<v Speaker 2>would only be available to the wealthy and the privilege,

0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:47.760
<v Speaker 2>and this would just make worse the deep social inequities

0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 2>that we have now.

0:25:58.920 --> 0:26:01.160
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what I was expected from John Fisher,

0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:03.640
<v Speaker 1>but I love that he wants us to think about

0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:07.600
<v Speaker 1>the climate before thinking about radical life. Extension that he

0:26:07.640 --> 0:26:11.720
<v Speaker 1>sees deep social inequities and injustices and hopes that we

0:26:11.760 --> 0:26:15.280
<v Speaker 1>can address those two. And it tickles me that in

0:26:15.320 --> 0:26:18.320
<v Speaker 1>a conversation with our heads in the clouds about immortality,

0:26:19.000 --> 0:26:21.879
<v Speaker 1>it can all come to a halt. Thanks to a

0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:28.480
<v Speaker 1>couple of cats. A big thank you to John Fisher

0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:30.600
<v Speaker 1>for making time to chat with me, to Zoe for

0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:33.800
<v Speaker 1>her animal wrangling. Thank you to Lizzie Jacobs, our showrunner,

0:26:33.840 --> 0:26:36.840
<v Speaker 1>Mary Philip Sandy, our brilliant producer and researcher, and the

0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:40.680
<v Speaker 1>endlessly connected Mark Steven Allen for producing this interview and

0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:44.679
<v Speaker 1>mini episode. And thank you as always to our editor

0:26:45.160 --> 0:26:50.200
<v Speaker 1>Mark Lotto who finally relented. And a big big thank

0:26:50.240 --> 0:26:52.840
<v Speaker 1>you to Dylan Fagan for mixing this. Dylan, you are

0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:55.520
<v Speaker 1>the best. If you haven't checked out Skyline Drive How

0:26:55.560 --> 0:26:58.760
<v Speaker 1>to Live Forever, please please give it a listen. All

0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:01.719
<v Speaker 1>the episodes are out now so you can binge it

0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:05.040
<v Speaker 1>at your convenience. Thank you so much for tuning in.