1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Then you would go up to the hill, you know, 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: and the nickname of it was piss. 3 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 2: Hill, and everybody knew it. 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, everybody knew it. Yes, Yeah, everybody that was on 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: the main drag cruising around. Yes, they would know where 6 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: that's at. 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 2: In every murder case, we get the media's version of events, 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 2: the story law enforcement pushes out, and the narrative underneath 9 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 2: it all those involved actually lived. And how old are you? 10 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 3: When were you born? 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:41,319 Speaker 1: I was born in nineteen sixty five, so am I'm 12 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: almost sixty. I'll be sixty next month. 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 2: And you grew up in Weatherford for. 14 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: The most part, Yeah, I grew up in Louisiana. My 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: dad was in the military, so I grew up in 16 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: partially in Louisiana. I got relatives there and then Texas. Yeah, 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: for basically Weatherford. Yeah, for most of my time. Yeah. 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 2: I'm calling this source Teddy. He doesn't want me to 19 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: use his real name. Offering anonymity to those living in 20 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: fear for decades allows them to speak freely. Teddy lived 21 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: in Weatherford in March nineteen eighty three. He was in 22 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:24,000 Speaker 2: town on the night Shelley Colliflower and Vincent Tejerina. We're 23 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: out on their first card day in Vincent's father's nineteen 24 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 2: seventy nine Monte Carlo, and I understand there was an 25 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 2: area where quote unquote you would cruise. 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: So you know this is like in the like from 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: the seventies from I was, you know, I cruised the 28 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: main drag from like seventy nine to around eighty two 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: ish eighty three ish, that's my high school years. And 30 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: it was in South Maine, Texas, which we have. You know, 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: most Texas towns have these courthouses, and it's usually the 32 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: downtown square area. But for us, where the cruise was 33 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: was South Maine, and it would go We have EYE 34 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: twenty that's out there. It's I twenty between the courthouse. 35 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: If you look at a map of weather for Texas, 36 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: so anywhere between the courthouse and South Main Street all 37 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: the way to I twenty and then that area there 38 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: would be the cruise. 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: Driving off the I twenty exit ramp, you'd head straight 40 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 2: toward downtown Weatherford, where at the end of that main 41 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: drag an elaborate courthouse building greet you welcomingly. We know 42 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,640 Speaker 2: the kids were last seen along that strip near nine 43 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 2: pm to ten pm, somewhere in that neighborhood witnesses reported 44 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: seeing them at the Sonic and a few other local 45 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: hotspots for kids in town along North and South Main Street. 46 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 2: They seemed happy in a good mood out by themselves 47 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 2: for the first time. 48 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: But on the end of the cruise were the specific 49 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: cruise there was a place they call Piss Hill, and 50 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: that's where kids It was kind of a it's still 51 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 1: there today. It's a like an electrical power plant type 52 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: thing with a fence going around it, and then on 53 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: the other side is kind of an open dirt field. 54 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: It's setting on the top of kind of a hill, 55 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: and that's where you would go to go hang out, 56 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, while your cruise of the main drag, and 57 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 1: then you get kind of bored with that, and then 58 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: you go up on this hill. Guys would take a 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: leak or whatever, have a few drinks or whatever. 60 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 2: Hence the now iconic name of the place Piss Hill, and. 61 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: Then you go back to the main drag and cruise 62 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: the main drag because kids would go up there and 63 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: hang out. It's kind of a secluded place on top 64 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: of the hill. 65 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: Did you hang around Shelley and Vince in that kind of. 66 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: Crowd, I didn't know them until after, you know, I 67 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: think it was like only three to four days after 68 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 1: their murder is whenever I became familiar with them. However, 69 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: the night of I was cruising with a friend of 70 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: mine and we were in her car, and she happened 71 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 1: to have a black Monte Carlo. 72 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 2: Remember Vincent borrowed his father's green Monte Carlo. We know 73 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 2: for a fact that he picked Shelley up at Debbie 74 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: Billingsley's house at six thirty pm and they left around 75 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: six forty five pm. Two sources I spoke to say 76 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: they saw them on the strip at nine thirty pm. 77 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: One source claims they were up at piss Hill parked 78 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: near nine pm. 79 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 1: And so I'm cruising the main drag around let's say, 80 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: do to do about seven point thirty to around midnightish, 81 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: Me and her kind of cruising the main drag, and 82 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: so the cars that she was in a I said, 83 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,119 Speaker 1: an eighty something model Monte Carlo, seventy nine eighty eighty 84 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: two Monte Carlo. And we happened to notice other people 85 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: driving the similar Monte Carlo, and Vincent and Shelley they 86 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 1: happened to have a Monte Carlo. I thought the car 87 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: was black, but I've been told it was a different color. 88 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: But it was a dark color, so at night with 89 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: the street lights, it looked like it made the car 90 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: look like it was black. So to me, I've always 91 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: thought it was a black Monte Carlo, exactly the kind 92 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: of car we were driving around in. But there were 93 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: three Monte Carlos that looked identical, the one we were driving, 94 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: the one Shelley and Vincent were driving, and then there 95 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: was another one. I'm not sure who was driving that one. 96 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: So we did see. I did see Shelley and Vincent, 97 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: not knowing their names at the time. I did see 98 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: their car a couple of times because everybody made that 99 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: same loop going down the main drag. We make everybody 100 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: make that same cruise drag going up and down and 101 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: stuff like that, and every now and we pull into 102 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: parking lots and talk to friends and then go back 103 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: on the main drag and drive up and down the street. 104 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: And I've seen their car probably about time frame, if 105 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: you will, maybe from off and on, maybe seven thirty 106 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: to maybe nine thirty something like that, maybe ten thirty, 107 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,159 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, that's kind of a timeframe. When I 108 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: did see them driving the main drag, if you will, 109 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: the cruise, the south main cruise. 110 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 2: So and while you were up there, what time was it. 111 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: Well, we went to Piss Hill a couple of times. 112 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: This comment is important. We are talking forty two years ago, 113 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: and Piss Hill was one of those places off the 114 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 2: main drag you'd circle back to at intervals throughout a 115 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 2: night of cruising. So the witness is coming forward to 116 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: explain that they saw the kids up there, could have 117 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: seen them at different times, and in a case like this, 118 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: a timeline becomes essential, which is why I wanted to 119 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: build it out right away. 120 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't say for sure, but we're there from 121 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: off and on. We may have gotten something to eat. 122 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: We cruised around, I know at one time around I 123 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: don't know. The times are this kind of so long ago, 124 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: probably about seven thirty, eight thirty, nine thirty we made 125 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: a stop there. So one time we stopped and then 126 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: we left, and then we went back up there again, 127 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: maybe one or two other times, so the timeframe would 128 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: be from seven thirty to midnight something to twelve thirty. 129 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: Maybe we were Okay, So there's an electrical power plant 130 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: up there, and it's fenced in it's still there today. 131 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: It was starting to rain, the storms were coming in, 132 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: and the clouds were coming in. The storms are coming in, 133 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: and me and lady friend I was with at the time, 134 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: we pulled in facing the west, which we're on top 135 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: of this hill, and we're watching the storms kind of 136 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 1: come into the you know, where we were at, and 137 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: I noticed some lightning strikes, I noticed some rain, and 138 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: we didn't go too far off because because of the mud, 139 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: you know, we didn't want to get into an area 140 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: that was muddy. And actually that little the road there 141 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: where whatever that road's called, I can't remember offhand. On 142 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: the opposite side is where I've seen some trucks four 143 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: wheel draw truck type trucks driving around over there, and 144 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: there would be cars coming in and out. It's real 145 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: dark up there at night, and you can't see. All 146 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: you can do is kind of see headlights, and the 147 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: only thing I could make out was like the trucks 148 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:16,319 Speaker 1: in and out. 149 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 2: That storm, the heavy rains and thunder, it's all going 150 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 2: to play an important role in re examining this case 151 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 2: and within what Teddy tells me. So let's go back 152 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 2: to that night. Teddy and his girlfriend are sitting in 153 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: that vehicle talking watching the storms roll in something of 154 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: a statewide pastime in the flatlands of Texas. They are 155 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: just across the street from a small parking area up 156 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 2: at Piss Hill where you could pull off for a 157 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: quick stop, which is actually on Cleeburn Avenue. The back 158 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 2: of the vehicle, Teddy is sitting in faces that pull 159 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: off the front of the vehicle, looking out into the horizon. 160 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: This pull off is a section of dirt and gravel 161 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: about half the size of a football field, maybe fifty 162 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 2: square yards long, half that wide. There's a telephone pole 163 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,439 Speaker 2: to the back of the lot. Fields of foliage surrounding 164 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 2: three sides with a slight decline heading down toward Tin 165 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: Top Road, and what is a power plant across the 166 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 2: street where Teddy and his girl are sitting. 167 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 4: We are. 168 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: Up on the hill facing west and we're over there 169 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: by the electrical power plant side, which was kind of 170 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: had some gravel on the behind me. I was looking 171 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: through the rear view mirrors. I knew there were vehicles 172 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: coming in and out on the other side. And that 173 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: area over there is kind of a i'd say like 174 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: an open parking lot, an old abandoned school or some 175 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: kind of abandoned property. I'm not really sure what was 176 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: back there. 177 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 2: Across Cleeburne Avenue from the pis Hill pull off was 178 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 2: an old school. It's nothing but rubble now, but in 179 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three it was still a standing structure. Some 180 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 2: I have spoken to have speculated that Vincent and Shelley 181 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 2: could have actually parked over there first, behind the building, 182 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 2: because why park with your girl right there out in 183 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: the open if you had plans on getting frisky, which 184 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:44,240 Speaker 2: we have to consider could have been part of their plan. 185 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: As Teddy and his girl are sitting watching the thunderstorm, 186 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 2: he hears. 187 00:11:51,160 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: Something and me and her are talking, and I hear 188 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: the rain coming in the lightning strikes and stuff like that. 189 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: So I start listening to the thunder. For whatever reason, 190 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:13,720 Speaker 1: it's got kind of quiet, and all of a sudden, 191 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: the thunder started. Thunderstrikes were happening, and then the rain 192 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: would stop, then start raining stop, And then I was 193 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: listening to the thunder, and this is what caught my attention. 194 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: I'm sitting here listening to the thunder, and then I 195 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: hear I hear the what a what? The sound of 196 00:12:30,559 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 1: a thunder sounds like rumbling through the sky, and during 197 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: the same time as a thunderstrike. It seemed like I 198 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: was hearing gunshots like I would hear like i'd hear 199 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: the thunder, and then I'd hear like a gunshot, But 200 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: the gunshot was coming We're facing west, it was coming 201 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: across the street from it sounded like it was coming 202 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: behind where I was at, face on the east side, 203 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: or where I was at. And then I heard maybe. 204 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: So the first time, I'm sitting there going well, that 205 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: thunder sounds odd, that sounds weird, and so I'm kind 206 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: of crouching down in the seat. The lady was with 207 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,959 Speaker 1: girl at the time. I guess I didn't want to 208 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: startle she didn't notice it, and I think I may 209 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: have said something, hey, did you hear that? And she 210 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,199 Speaker 1: didn't notice it, So I said, well, I don't want 211 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: to spook her. So she was sitting pretty low in 212 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: the seat already, and so I started kind of easing 213 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: down into the seat and I was really listening, and 214 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: then I heard it again. I heard like a thunder noise. 215 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: In Texas, you grow up around firearms. You learn to 216 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: distinguish between the sound of a rifle and a pistol. 217 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: You know the sound of rolling thunder across the plains, 218 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 2: and it sure doesn't sound like a gunshot. That noise 219 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: was so distinctly different than the thunder that Teddy instinctively 220 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: crouched down in his seat, thinking somebody was firing a 221 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 2: weapon in their direction. He was certain of it. 222 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: And then I heard what sounded like a gunshot, and 223 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: then I think I may have heard it maybe one 224 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 1: or two more times, and then that was it. Previously 225 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: on paper. 226 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 2: Ghosts, this is not real. 227 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 5: This is not real. You know, they're not my Kelly, no, 228 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 5: you know, and it's just like a oh, I cannot 229 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 5: even tell you what it feels. 230 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 6: Shelling was fourteen, I mean in Vincent was sixteen, and 231 00:14:50,360 --> 00:14:55,119 Speaker 6: these were kids, and we're just trying to get answers 232 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 6: to the family and they've been denied any answers from whether 233 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 6: for a few days. 234 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 2: He stayed there for a while. 235 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: One o'clock rolls, around two o'clock. He goes out again, 236 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: looking again, and the next time we started with in 237 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: the funeral. 238 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 3: My name is Emi William Phelps. 239 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: I'm an investigative journalist and the New York Times bestselling 240 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 2: author of dozens of true crime books. This is season 241 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: five of Paper Ghosts. The Texas Team murders. Drive along 242 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: South Main Street, hang a right onto Bethel Road, and 243 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: you come to Tintop on your left. As you drive 244 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: up ten Top, you pass a field as the road 245 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: begins a brie incline. Maybe a quarter mile from there. 246 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: On the right is that massive power grid plan the 247 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: area where my source Teddy was parked with his girl 248 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 2: and heard what he believed to be three gunshots. It 249 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: looks like anywhere in the US dollarge dealership. It occurred 250 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: to me as I drove up tent Top, maybe more 251 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: as a father than some dude investigating a cold case, 252 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 2: that Vincent's dad, Vince Senior, must have gone through hell 253 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: during the early morning hours of March twenty sixth, nineteen 254 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 2: eighty three, as he set out looking for the kids 255 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 2: after they failed to show up at Debbie Billingsley's house 256 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: the previous night. Vincent Senior had to know in his 257 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: gut something was wrong, and that hell Vincent Senior went 258 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: through as he drove all over town looking for them, 259 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: would only get worse as the sun rose that early 260 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,639 Speaker 2: morning and there was still no word from the kids, 261 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 2: And so you you spent a lot of time at 262 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: the Tejerina house, Am I right? 263 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:17,400 Speaker 7: We spent a lot of time with all family. 264 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 2: Yes, And so talk to me about that family dynamic, 265 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: the atmosphere, what you would do. Tell me a story 266 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 2: or two of how you would show love to each other. 267 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 7: Well, we were obviously really close. 268 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 4: We spent almost every single weekend together with not just 269 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 4: one family, but like four or five families together. We 270 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 4: would go to the lake, we would go over to Vincent's. 271 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 4: You know, he had a ranch. Well I considered it 272 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 4: a ranch because it was just you know, a whole 273 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 4: bunch of acreage and they had, you know, their blommables. 274 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 7: That little Vincent was crazy for the Efatha. 275 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 4: They had moved into a small little trailer until they 276 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 4: you know, he made enough money to build their house. So, 277 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 4: you know, he had his own construction or I think 278 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 4: it was a painting company. 279 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 7: So he did a. 280 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 4: Lot of work, you know for businesses in Weatherford and 281 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 4: they built their house. So when they built their house, 282 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 4: I used to go and spend more time with Lily 283 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 4: because she was my age and Vincent was I think 284 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 4: three years older than I was. 285 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: I spoke to one of Vincent Tejerina's family members, who 286 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 2: doesn't want me using her name for fear of being 287 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: harassed or worse. She grew up with Vincent. Was there 288 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 2: on the day he left with Shelley on their first 289 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 2: card date, and will never forget the overwhelming panic that 290 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 2: ensued when word began to spread that the kids had 291 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 2: not come home. I asked her what kind of kid 292 00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 2: Vincent was. 293 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 4: He was very, very caring, very sweet. He was very protective, 294 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 4: you know, of his family. He honestly, he was an 295 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 4: enigma because he was a perfect ideal kid. 296 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 7: You know. He helped his dad with the business. 297 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 4: He was straighting student, he was in the martial arts, 298 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 4: He raised those cattle. He you know, helped raise his sisters. 299 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 4: It was there wasn't anything that he wouldn't do. He 300 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 4: was just very smart and sweet person. 301 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 7: I was helping people. 302 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 2: Vincent Junior had the admiration of his peers, respected his 303 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 2: parents and elders, and had this unassailable love for his 304 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 2: baby's sister. 305 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 4: Instance, he actually built this, you know house. My cousin 306 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 4: was like, oh, he does a house for me. Let 307 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 4: you know, she'd come over and see it. And so 308 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 4: I went over to see it, and she wasn't lying. 309 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 4: He was almost literally a small version of a house. 310 00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 4: I had electric, it had blooming, but it was her 311 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 4: clubhouse that he made for her for her birthday. 312 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. I was told that he loved her so much 313 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 2: that he took her everywhere he went. 314 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah he did because that. 315 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 7: Was his little sister. 316 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 4: He was protecting her always, and he just loved hanging out. 317 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 7: He was just he has such a big heart, you know. 318 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 4: And so if she went, then I would go, you know, 319 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 4: because I was, you know, with her as well, and 320 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 4: he was. 321 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 7: You know, really caring. He would do anything for her. 322 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 2: And did he talk about having any problems with anybody 323 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: in town, in school, et cetera. 324 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 7: No, he never did, because nobody ever had a problem 325 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 7: with him. 326 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 2: What about school? How how did that go for him? 327 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,160 Speaker 2: Did he like it? Did he What did he want 328 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 2: to do when he grew up? 329 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 7: Well, he had he had a lot of big dreams. 330 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 4: He was going to help his father with his business, 331 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 4: so he could you know, expand and be a larger 332 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 4: business and help his father run that. That was his 333 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 4: dream to make sure that, you know, his family was 334 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 4: always taking care of So when Vincent was working, he 335 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 4: was working alongside him to build that dream. That's why 336 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 4: he started showing the Brahma bulls because he wanted to 337 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 4: make that extra money to put back into the family business. 338 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 4: He loved martial arts. 339 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 7: I do remember that, and I started taking martial arts 340 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 7: just because he did, you know. 341 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 2: And was he good at it? 342 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 7: He was really good at it. Yes. 343 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 2: And he could protect himself. 344 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 7: Yes, or against one person. 345 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 2: Yes, big kid. Was he a big kid? 346 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 7: No, he was not a big kid at all. 347 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 4: He was I would probably say maybe five four and 348 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 4: I would probably say about one hundred and fifteen pounds 349 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 4: soaking wet. He was not a very big guy at all. 350 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: He was very small, sature. 351 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 2: Does he talk about meeting Shelley at all with the 352 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: family or how does she come up? 353 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 4: She came up because he had said that he was 354 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 4: making her out because she was afraid of something. She 355 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 4: was afraid of an ex boyfriend or something, and so 356 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 4: he wanted to go out and have fun with her 357 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 4: and make sure she had a nice time and kind 358 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 4: of like show her that there were nice guys out there. 359 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 2: And so she was at the time he met her. 360 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: Was she was scared of one of her ex boyfriends? 361 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 7: Yes? 362 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: Did she name. Do you recall him? 363 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 4: No, I wasn't there with that conversation, and he wasn't 364 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,719 Speaker 4: one to drop names. He would just say that, you know, 365 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 4: he didn't She was nervous about some guy that she dated. 366 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: For Vincent, his family and minorities in general. Living in 367 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 2: Weatherford at the time, there were other things to fear 368 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: in town, seemingly much darker than an angry ex boyfriend. 369 00:22:54,960 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 4: The eighties and Weatherford was more like the fifties and 370 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 4: Weatherford or the fifties around the US, it was very 371 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 4: racially divided. 372 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 7: When I went to school there, it was you were 373 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 7: pretty much ridiculed. 374 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 4: From being anything other than white. So I would be called, 375 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 4: you know, racial names everyone in the count If you 376 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 4: were not white, you were just every other you know, slur. 377 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 7: You could be known as. 378 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: I'm sorry that. So so that that went on a 379 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 2: lot there. 380 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 7: Oh, yes, it's known. It still goes on to day. 381 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,440 Speaker 4: I mean, honestly, if they did not want you in 382 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 4: the city, they would run you out. 383 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 7: Period. 384 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 4: We were just grandfathered in because we've been there since 385 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 4: this fifties and sixties, and so everyone that was you 386 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 4: know there from that time period they considered as tolerable, 387 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 4: so you know, we were kind of left alone as 388 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 4: long as you weren't put on the radar. 389 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 2: Was there violence against minorities at the time, My gosh, yes, 390 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: and talk to me a little bit about that, what 391 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: you've heard, what you've seen. 392 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 4: Well, as from growing up, we used to always do 393 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 4: like go to the Sunshine like which is you know 394 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 4: now called Cartwright Park and we would go have family 395 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,080 Speaker 4: picnics and things like that. But we were always told 396 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 4: never say when it gets dark. As soon as it 397 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 4: even starts to get dark, you leave immediately because that 398 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 4: was known to be where the KKK would come and 399 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 4: you know, do their nightly things or whatever meetings. So 400 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,080 Speaker 4: if you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, 401 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 4: then you would. 402 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 7: Get caught in that. 403 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 2: And so the KKK was prevalent down there at the time. 404 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 4: Oh yes, sheriff policies and the Sheriff's department and the 405 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 4: police department. 406 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: This changes things for me and widens the suspect pool significantly. 407 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 2: And so you're saying there were members from law enforcement 408 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: in the KKK. Oh yes, Vincent Senior knew before the 409 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: clock struck midnight on March twenty sixth, nineteen eighty three, 410 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,359 Speaker 2: when his son had not come home or called that 411 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: he needed to act. He could not simply sit around 412 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 2: and wait for someone else to do something, so he 413 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 2: took action almost immediately. There was no question about Vincent 414 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 2: Junior's integrity, honesty, and responsibility. If he had not come home, 415 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 2: there was a reason beyond his control. 416 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 4: And so at ten he started calling people, you know, 417 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 4: all of the family. Hey, you've seen him, you know, 418 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 4: in town and you know we were asleep, so we 419 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 4: hadn't seen anything. But he checked with every single person 420 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 4: because that wasn't like him. He would not just be 421 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 4: you know, not there. He would have stopped somewhere to. 422 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 7: Call, you know, and let him know, hey, am running 423 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 7: late or something like that. And you know, my uncle 424 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 7: also knew that you. 425 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 4: Really don't want to be out that late, because only 426 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 4: bad things happened was after dark. 427 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 2: The Ta Jerinas lived off of Tin Top Road to 428 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 2: the south. To get to Main Street, where Vincent Senior 429 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 2: knew the kids were going that night, you'd drive north 430 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 2: on Tin Top Road and go past Piss Hill. If 431 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 2: Vincent Senior is out specifically looking for his son, and 432 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 2: Vincent and Shelley were parked on piss hill. There could 433 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 2: be no way he'd miss seeing the vehicle as he 434 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 2: drove by that pull off throughout the night. 435 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 4: So yeah, which I always found was really strange because 436 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 4: coming down that road where they were found, you, that 437 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 4: was the road that you came in and out from there. 438 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 7: I mean, you couldn't really go any other way. 439 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,679 Speaker 4: So for him to come down that way and then 440 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 4: not see it the first time, Yeah, indicates to me 441 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 4: that the car was not there when he first passed. 442 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 4: And I do remember that there was a huge thunderstorm 443 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 4: that night, because I mean it woke me from a 444 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 4: dead sleep, you know, with all the you know, thunder. 445 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 7: And humbling that was going on. 446 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 4: Sure, and at that point, a lot of my uncles 447 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 4: and you know, the ones that actually could drive, were 448 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 4: out looking for him. My dad went to go look 449 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 4: for him because they were like, He's like, I'm worried, 450 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 4: I'm of something wrong. 451 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,199 Speaker 2: Long past midnight, there was still no word and no 452 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 2: sign of Vincent or Shelley. If you recall Shelley's parents, 453 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 2: her mother Janetta and stepfather Ronnie, were away for the weekend. Neighbor, 454 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 2: family friend and babysitter, Debbie Billingsley had taken Shelley and 455 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 2: her sister Christie for those nights. So Janetta and Ronnie 456 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 2: are celebrating their anniversary and have no idea what is 457 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 2: going on back in town that Vincent Sor and his 458 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: family are in a panic driving around looking for the kids, 459 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,919 Speaker 2: nor that Debbie, expecting Shelley to be back by eleven PM, 460 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: is beyond concerned herself. 461 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 5: The next morning, at six o'clock, I think it was, 462 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 5: I got a call from Debbie and she said, Johnny, 463 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 5: the kids didn't come home last night. They were going 464 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 5: to get to go get something. She let them go 465 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 5: get something, you know, to drink, and she said, the 466 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 5: kids didn't come home last night. And I said, what 467 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 5: do you mean. She said, they didn't come home last night. 468 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 5: I said, okay, I'm on my way. So we leave 469 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 5: and I get home and we go to you know, 470 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 5: the gates, and there were cars everywhere. 471 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 7: And so. 472 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 5: Right, and I looked at Ronnie and he knew it 473 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 5: was something wasn't right, and he said, just sit here 474 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 5: a minute. And so his mother. At the time Ronnie 475 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 5: got out of the car, his mother's coming out of 476 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 5: the house and she's just booing and shaking her arms 477 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 5: and I knew it didn't Something. 478 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 2: Was wrong when Vincent Senior drove past Piss Hill. Of course, 479 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 2: knowing how kids are, he searched that area to see 480 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: if they had parked and perhaps lost track of time. 481 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 2: It was a stormy night, so maybe their car broke 482 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 2: down or they got a flat. There were so many 483 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: scenarios that could have happened to make them late. But 484 00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 2: Vincent Senior, looking carefully for his son and that Monte 485 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 2: Carlo he had let the boy borrow, drove by Piss Hill. 486 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: No one really knows what time this was, and he 487 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: did not see the vehicle anywhere. This will become an 488 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 2: important fact in my investigation later on, because it's clear 489 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 2: from those I spoke to that Vincent Senior was up 490 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 2: there searching again after midnight and he never saw the vehicle. 491 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 2: Just as the sun begins to pop over the horizon. 492 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 2: After driving around all night long and not finding the kids, 493 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: Vincent Senior takes another drive along Tin Top Road, once 494 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: again passing Piss Hill as he is heading home, somewhere 495 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: around five point thirty to six am, and this time 496 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: he sees the Monte Carlo sitting there by that telephone 497 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 2: pole just off Cleeburn Avenue, almost in the middle of 498 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: the pull off here is that unnamed tea Jerina family member. 499 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 3: Once again, we. 500 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 7: Received the call. 501 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 4: I don't know when we received the call, but I 502 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 4: knew as soon as the phone rang that it wasn't good. 503 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 7: And then I just hear my mom scream and she 504 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 7: falls to the ground. 505 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 4: And then that's when we jump up and ask what 506 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 4: happened and she said that then so it. 507 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 7: Was gone, and I was devastated. 508 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 4: I mean, even that, for the years have passed, still haunting, 509 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 4: because there's no reason why a child should have been killed, 510 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 4: no reason in the world except through the eight that's 511 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 4: the only thing that would kill a child. 512 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 7: There were babies. 513 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 3: We know for certain. 514 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 2: It was near six am then, since pulls up Cleeburn, Parks, 515 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 2: gets out of his vehicle and approaches the Monte Carlo. 516 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: There doesn't seem to be anyone around. The entire area 517 00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 2: is muddy and wet from the overnight thunderstorms. As he 518 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 2: walks up to the driver's side door, he can see 519 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: his son slumped back against the seat, blood everywhere, one 520 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 2: of Vincent Junior's eyes actually hanging out of its socket. 521 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 2: Shelley is sitting in the passenger seat. There's some disagreement 522 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 2: over how Shelley's body was found, which we will unpack 523 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 2: later on. One version is that Shelley's head is leaning 524 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 2: against the closed window, blood dripping down the door. But 525 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: that is not how Vincent sor says he found them. 526 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: It's a fact both of these kids' bodies had been 527 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 2: staged and both were shot at point blank range. After 528 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,719 Speaker 2: staying at the crime scene for several minutes, Vincent Senior 529 00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 2: head straight to the closest house, uses their phone, gets 530 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 2: hold of police, then calls home and explains what he found. 531 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 2: How is you know the family? What is the family 532 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: doing at this time early morning? 533 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 3: There? 534 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 4: He told us where he was, where he was found, 535 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 4: and so we all drove up to the location where 536 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,720 Speaker 4: the car was found, and we were all allowed to 537 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 4: walk around and just roam and just do all kinds 538 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,440 Speaker 4: of stuff with the policeman sitting there, you know, allowing 539 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 4: us to taint everything that's around us. 540 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 2: So you all are walking around the crime scene basically, yes, 541 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 2: do you see anything while you're up there? 542 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, we see the huge puddle of blood that's. 543 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 7: You know, not inside of the car. I was the 544 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,040 Speaker 7: one that found that. 545 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 4: There was a light pole there and there was blood 546 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 4: on the lighthole, which I pointed out to my mom 547 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 4: and pulled it out to the police. 548 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 7: It was just I couldn't believe. 549 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 4: One even as a child, that we're allowed to be 550 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 4: walking around, you know, tainting evidence, you know, just like 551 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 4: a crime just happened here and we're allowed to walk 552 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 4: around and people were taking pictures, and it was just unbelievable. 553 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,800 Speaker 4: And that's when I knew something was really wrong, because 554 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 4: why else would they want you to mess up the 555 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 4: crime scene, if only to cover themselves. 556 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: And there was only one cop on the scene. 557 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 4: The only one that I remember, so I mean I 558 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 4: I was devastated. There was too much going on. 559 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:56,360 Speaker 2: Sure, sure understandable. So you have two teenagers found brutally murdered, 560 00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 2: shot in the head, and by six thirty am, only 561 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,239 Speaker 2: one cop has responded to the scene, a man you'll 562 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 2: hear from soon. Obviously, nothing could prepare the families for 563 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:15,440 Speaker 2: the news they received that morning. When Janetta and Ronnie 564 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 2: Calliflower returned home, Janetta locked herself inside the car. She 565 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 2: reckoned that if she didn't get out of the vehicle, 566 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 2: she couldn't hear the news that it wasn't real. 567 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 5: So I just got down in the car, locked the 568 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 5: doors and I didn't want to get out because I 569 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 5: didn't want to hear you know, I don't you know, no, no, no, 570 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 5: everything's fine. So finally I do get out, and you know, 571 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 5: here's these people in my house and the detectives and. 572 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,760 Speaker 2: What Janetta and Ronnie were told about the murders only 573 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: led them to ask more questions, the most pressing being 574 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 2: who would want to kill two innocent children in such 575 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 2: a violent execution style manner? What could possibly be the motive? 576 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 2: Two police officers showed up at Janetta and Ronnie's house 577 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 2: at some point early that morning. Both officers explained to 578 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 2: the Collie Flowers what had happened, without going into great detail. 579 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,960 Speaker 5: Johnny, she was shot. Her and Vincent were both shot, 580 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:39,520 Speaker 5: and of course I just lost it. And the other 581 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 5: sad part is Vincent's dad is the one that found them. 582 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 3: Right. 583 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 2: What did you feel like when you heard they were shot? 584 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 3: What thoughts went through you? 585 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 5: And it's not real? This is not real. This is 586 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 5: you know, and not my Shelley, No, you know, and 587 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 5: it's just like a oh, I cannot even tell you 588 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 5: what it feels like and it's like something has just 589 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,320 Speaker 5: gotten hooked to your heart and just ripped it apart, 590 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 5: crushed it. I can't even tell you know, it's just 591 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 5: your being is just like gone that it's still that, 592 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 5: you know. Then you're in the shock. 593 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 2: The investigation. Did you act? Did you talk about the 594 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 2: investigation at all? 595 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 3: Or what's going on? 596 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 2: Who did this? 597 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 5: I asked you, and I said, okay, I want to 598 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:37,720 Speaker 5: know how, And he said God, he said, they both 599 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,440 Speaker 5: were shot and they have temple. 600 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 2: I hate to say that this is just the first 601 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,920 Speaker 2: of many lies that the family was told, because lie 602 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:54,319 Speaker 2: is such a strong word, but both families, along with 603 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: law enforcement and others associated with the case, echoed this 604 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 2: same set intimate to me. The kids were not shot 605 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 2: in the temple, a fact that would take forty two 606 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,399 Speaker 2: years to be unearthed publicly after report is dropped off 607 00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 2: literally on the doorstep of a family member in late 608 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, by an anonymous person. On February fourteenth, 609 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:37,440 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, just six weeks before the kids are murdered, 610 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 2: another couple, Lewis and Immajen Crips, were found murdered inside 611 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 2: their truck, which was submerged in Lake Weatherford, fifteen miles 612 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 2: east of Tintop Road. Both had been shot to death. 613 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 2: So now there are four murders, two couples within a 614 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,919 Speaker 2: month and a half in this rather secluded small Texas town. 615 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 3: Robert, How you doing? How you doing? I'm Matthew Robert Morton. 616 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 3: Nice to meet you. Man. 617 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 2: Getting law enforcement to go on record and talk about 618 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 2: Shelley and Vincent's case has been a challenge. Just accessing documents, 619 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 2: most of which should be public, has become impossible. Over 620 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 2: the past year. I took my denied freedom of information 621 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 2: request all the way up the chain to the Attorney 622 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 2: General's office and was for a third time denied even 623 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:49,799 Speaker 2: the most basic paperwork associated with Vincent and Shelley's murders, 624 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 2: which says something to me. So that has forced me 625 00:39:54,200 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 2: to gather the information about the early investigation myself. On 626 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:07,240 Speaker 2: a cold, wet, extremely windy morning in February twenty twenty five, 627 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 2: I met the first officer on the scene that morning 628 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty three, along with a few other people 629 00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 2: instrumental in my investigation, in who you'll meet later in 630 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 2: the podcast. We parked on Piss Hill in the exact 631 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,360 Speaker 2: spot where the officer came upon what was the most 632 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 2: gruesome murder scene he had ever encountered. Robert Hardin is 633 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 2: eighty seven years old. Today. He walks with a cane. 634 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 2: His face has the lines of a man who has 635 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 2: lived a long life and spent a considerable amount of time. 636 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 3: In the sun. 637 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 2: He sports a grey got He still smokes cigarettes. But 638 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 2: I'll say this, the guy is as sharp as a 639 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:04,080 Speaker 2: thirty year old. As that wind whipped in a slight 640 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:09,720 Speaker 2: drizzle began conditions eerily similar to that morning Robert Hardin 641 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 2: was up here so long ago. We talked about what 642 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 2: he found and how the call came in. 643 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,640 Speaker 3: Are you working the overnight shift or why? 644 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 4: So? 645 00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 3: What happens a call? Who called? Do you do you 646 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:27,560 Speaker 3: remember who called in? 647 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 8: Yeah? Venture the boy. 648 00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 2: Daddy after he found the car, and so he calls in. 649 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: He finds the car. When you get here, what do 650 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 2: you see? 651 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 8: Well, the car was silk here something new day, probably 652 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 8: in front of Jack Ball, and he was here. He 653 00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,319 Speaker 8: placeballformation me up here a little bit four six. I 654 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 8: don't know exactly what time now, but I got I 655 00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 8: was supposed to get off for six. I got a 656 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 8: call to come up here just a few minutes from 657 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 8: four to six in the car report. 658 00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 3: And how was Vincent when you got here? What was 659 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:18,280 Speaker 3: he doing? 660 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 2: He was standing by the car when I got here, 661 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 2: Robert says, it was just before six am, so that 662 00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:30,359 Speaker 2: timeline seems to add up to what I have. When 663 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 2: he arrives, he sees Vincent Senior on the scene standing 664 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 2: by the vehicle. 665 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 8: I got here first, I got there. It was walk 666 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 8: around the car, and like I said, the kid would 667 00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:49,760 Speaker 8: both laying in. See the girl land on the drivers 668 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 8: passing your side, and she was laying back against see 669 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 8: she was dressed. He was on the driver's side. She 670 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,520 Speaker 8: was landing more to the door and the window on 671 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,720 Speaker 8: the pastor's side, and he was on the buying steering wheel, 672 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 8: and he was leaning back against his seat. And when 673 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 8: I walked around the car long about here or. 674 00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 2: Somewhere, we made our way over to an area of 675 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,440 Speaker 2: the lot that would have easily been seen by anyone 676 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 2: passing by on tin Top or Clee Burn. Robert Hardin 677 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 2: searched the ground with his eyes and then pointed to 678 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 2: a particular spot. 679 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,200 Speaker 3: A little put blood right on the ground. You on 680 00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,320 Speaker 3: the grounds were leaked out of the car. 681 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 8: Were leaked out of the car and open the door 682 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 8: off ship. You know, I'm not sure they were. And 683 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,279 Speaker 8: his hay was drastic scept his belt was undone, his 684 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,040 Speaker 8: zipper on his fly. 685 00:43:58,080 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 4: And. 686 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,400 Speaker 8: Of course I understand that that's all been changed. Vincent 687 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 8: redressful after he got here, so I don't have any 688 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 8: animals like before. But I pulled the car up in 689 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,799 Speaker 8: here got up, and of course, Senor I got here 690 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,280 Speaker 8: and walked around the car. I called for the corner 691 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 8: and the detectives to come out here and look at you. 692 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 8: I called a corner. It was Glenn Densmore and as 693 00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 8: soon as he got here, Vincent Sr. 694 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:37,640 Speaker 3: I wanted to go. 695 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 8: Tell his wife, you know what he'd found here. 696 00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 2: He didn't. 697 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 8: He didn't want to go tell her, so he asked 698 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 8: me if I could go with him to his house, 699 00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:50,120 Speaker 8: and uh, after the corner and everybody got here, he 700 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:50,840 Speaker 8: and I left. 701 00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,800 Speaker 2: Glenn Dinsmore was the coroner. What will become important later 702 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,360 Speaker 2: is that Robert claims vince Vin's pants were down and 703 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 2: that Shelley's head was leaning against the passenger side door window. 704 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,200 Speaker 2: He then followed Vincent Senior home so he could help 705 00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 2: explain to missus t Jerina what happened. The impression I 706 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 2: got from Robert was that Vincent Senior didn't want to 707 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 2: face his wife alone and explain to her that her 708 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 2: son had been murdered. 709 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:28,880 Speaker 8: Okay, and then I took him home and went in 710 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 8: and talked to his laugh and I came back. It 711 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,440 Speaker 8: was right back to the play shade. I didn't come 712 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 8: back by here. I went to the PlayStation, checked out 713 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:46,600 Speaker 8: and was about the last last I had anything to 714 00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 8: do with it. 715 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 3: Did they did they kind of push you all out 716 00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 3: of it? I mean? 717 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:51,920 Speaker 4: Or well? 718 00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:52,759 Speaker 7: Cool? 719 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 8: I was just control when I wasn't an investigator and 720 00:45:55,719 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 8: sure everything like that. I was just controlling. You're telling 721 00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 8: them one? Did I saw here? When I want to? 722 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:00,279 Speaker 1: After? 723 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:06,680 Speaker 8: Before I left, Grahamond Richard and Glendel. 724 00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 3: Let me ask you about the car now? 725 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,920 Speaker 2: Did it look like it was staged or or did. 726 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 3: It look natural? 727 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:16,240 Speaker 1: Looked natural? 728 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 3: And what was the weather like? It was raining, not 729 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 3: real hard, but it was raining. 730 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:24,680 Speaker 8: Graham? 731 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 4: Was we you know. 732 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:30,719 Speaker 3: You know what? 733 00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,000 Speaker 8: I I don't know when I got here. I've heard 734 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 8: several of the stories with the car parked over there 735 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,279 Speaker 8: behind the building on that side, and there was a 736 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:44,160 Speaker 8: deputy share before I got here, really yeah, before I got. 737 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 2: Here really so deputies they would be Parker County from 738 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:48,960 Speaker 2: the Sheriff's apartment. 739 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:52,799 Speaker 3: So just to be clear, I mean you worked for 740 00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,840 Speaker 3: Weatherford PDS. So okay, so the Sheriff's. 741 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: Apartment you were, you were told what was here before 742 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:01,800 Speaker 2: for you? 743 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,040 Speaker 3: Ah? Interesting, for I know. 744 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 8: There was no call ever made to like how go 745 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,279 Speaker 8: to call on j would be somebody saw witness for 746 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 8: sold two sharestaps you said. 747 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,320 Speaker 3: Up here wow? Wow. 748 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:29,200 Speaker 2: And so what Robert Hardin confirms is something I have 749 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 2: heard from numerous sources that even before the Weatherford Police 750 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,680 Speaker 2: Department went out to the scene, and remember Vincent Senior 751 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:43,280 Speaker 2: found the kids and called the Weatherford Police Department, Parker 752 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:48,840 Speaker 2: County Sheriff's Department deputies had already been unseen but had 753 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:55,080 Speaker 2: left before Robert arrived. But there is no record of 754 00:47:55,200 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 2: anyone calling it into the Sheriff's department. So how would 755 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:06,240 Speaker 2: they even know the murders took place? I asked Robert 756 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,240 Speaker 2: what his immediate thoughts were when he had a moment 757 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 2: to think about the crime scene and what might have happened. 758 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 8: Well, at the time I thought that it was a 759 00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:18,560 Speaker 8: drug deal going bad. 760 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 3: Jim, what made you think that, Well, the. 761 00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 8: Car that they were driving was we had a drug dealer. 762 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,400 Speaker 8: That car looked like and I thought, you know, my 763 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 8: first thought was whenever, whenever Rogers got up here and 764 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 8: got thinking about it, you know that got that car. 765 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,799 Speaker 8: Somebody saw that car and stopped like a drug dealer. 766 00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 8: And it was like, you mean the kid. I don't 767 00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 8: think the kids were involved anyway in anyway, you know, 768 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,440 Speaker 8: in the car they were driving looked like this drug 769 00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:54,000 Speaker 8: dealer's car. 770 00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 2: That initial news of what Vincent Senior saw when he 771 00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 2: approached the vehicle would soon change in a huge way. 772 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 2: Even Vincent's account would be called into question when new 773 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:13,240 Speaker 2: facts later emerged. What Robert Harden witnessed when he first 774 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:18,080 Speaker 2: arrived was not the original crime scene. I am very 775 00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 2: confident of that the kids' bodies had clearly been moved. 776 00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 2: But things become even murkier after I spoke to someone 777 00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,560 Speaker 2: who ran into Shelley and Vincent that night up on 778 00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 2: Piss Hill and even spoke to them. What he has 779 00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 2: to say is well, rather remarkable, throwing things and yet 780 00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 2: another new direction. 781 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,200 Speaker 9: I'd had your beers and I need to feel real bad. 782 00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 9: So we went up on the hill and I've seen 783 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:59,480 Speaker 9: Vincent there in his car and I said, I will 784 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:01,200 Speaker 9: you do a man, and he goes, oh, I'm just 785 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,560 Speaker 9: out on a date, you know. And I was like, hey, 786 00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:05,520 Speaker 9: hell you young ladies. 787 00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:08,520 Speaker 8: I don't meet you. Uh and then. 788 00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,960 Speaker 9: All interested, probably watching words. And then next thing I know, 789 00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:17,440 Speaker 9: I see a super car pulled up and I'm walking 790 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,239 Speaker 9: over to my car when the Trooper cars pulled up. 791 00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:26,680 Speaker 9: They pulled up behind Venfit and not theying you know, 792 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,520 Speaker 9: you got them big jar head looking white boy in 793 00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 9: the big change cowboy hat and all that. Now I'll say, 794 00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,319 Speaker 9: I'll look at dinner go from a distance, and I 795 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,040 Speaker 9: was like, I had drunk and I didn't want to 796 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,160 Speaker 9: come to him, so we shout out of it, like 797 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:46,879 Speaker 9: about out of hell. And then uh, I guess I've 798 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:51,880 Speaker 9: got I didn't see him go through town or nothing. 799 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,360 Speaker 2: Was it a Sheriff's department or was it Weatherford PD? 800 00:50:56,680 --> 00:51:02,480 Speaker 8: Or it was chance to stay truthful. 801 00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:14,040 Speaker 2: Check out my weekly podcast Crossing the Line with m 802 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,960 Speaker 2: William Phelps, where I delve into a new missing person 803 00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:21,040 Speaker 2: and cold case murder each week. Wherever you get your 804 00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:28,240 Speaker 2: favorite shows coming up in the next episode of Paper goops, 805 00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:29,640 Speaker 2: there's no way. 806 00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,319 Speaker 4: There's no way you're going to stop me from ever 807 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 4: finding out who murdered my child. 808 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:33,520 Speaker 5: I don't care. 809 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,600 Speaker 7: I will do into the diamond breath I have. 810 00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:37,280 Speaker 1: That's scary stuff. 811 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:39,399 Speaker 10: It wouldn't be fair to say that we didn't have. 812 00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:41,719 Speaker 10: I mean, we obviously had a crime scene that was 813 00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,239 Speaker 10: worked out there on that, but with the amount of 814 00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:47,600 Speaker 10: time that elapsed, you almost experienced a similar thing there, right, 815 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,879 Speaker 10: because the crime scene wasn't handled in nineteen eighty three 816 00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 10: the way the quished is handled the day. 817 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:58,479 Speaker 5: Until one day are coming and I say, Okay, what's 818 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:06,840 Speaker 5: going on, Johnny. I've been told we can't question that 819 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,840 Speaker 5: it's the mayor. Something to do with the mayor. 820 00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 2: Paper Ghost Season five is written and executive produced by 821 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:24,800 Speaker 2: me and William Phelps. Script consulting by iHeartMedia Executive producer 822 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:30,759 Speaker 2: Catherine Law, Production by TOC Boom Productions, Audio mastering and 823 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:35,600 Speaker 2: mixing by Brandon Dickert. The series theme number four four 824 00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:39,600 Speaker 2: to two is written and performed by Thomas Phelps and 825 00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 2: Tom Mooney.