1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Next week is our hundredth episode of Ruthie's Table four, 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: and to celebrate, we thought we would turn it over 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: to you. If you have a question for me, a 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: food memory you'd like to share, or a recipe you 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: just need help with, Record a message and send it 6 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: in the phone numbers in the text below. Ask me anything. 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 1: Happy Birthday, Ruthie's Table four. I would like to think 8 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:27,479 Speaker 1: that Simon sebag Montefiori and I have much in common. 9 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: We both had what he calls a loving and indulgent childhood. 10 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: We believe in trust, and openness and flexibility. Our families 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: fled the pogroms of Romanov Russia. We see food as 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: one of the focuses of our life. Simon and I 13 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: also love to tell and listen to stories, food and history, 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: food and fiction, food and exploring. 15 00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: I love the stories. 16 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: Simon has lived them his books and television programs. Katherine 17 00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: the Great Potempkin, Stalin the Court of the Red Star, Erusalem, 18 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: The Biography Titans of History, the Romanovs sixteen thirteen to 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen, and most recently a fantastic book, The World 20 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: of Family. History of Humanity, educates, informs, and inspires us 21 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: who read, listen, and watch. Today we're here together on 22 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: a beautiful autumn day in the River cafe to discuss 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 1: this and more. 24 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 3: Lucky me, lucky me, too great to be here. 25 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for coming. So Simon, you've chosen. You wrote 26 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: to me, you called me, We spoke about it that 27 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: of all the recipes in our twelve cookbooks, you wanted 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: to do the Canelini bean. 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: And jacorea soup. 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: So you could read the recipe and then we could 31 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: discuss why you chose this. 32 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 4: Of course, chaquaura and canelini bean soup. So this serves 33 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 4: six two hundred and fifty grams of cooked cannellini beans, 34 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 4: two hundred grams of chacorea leaves, half a garlic bulb, 35 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 4: fresh sagely, two garlic clothes chopped, three tablespoons olive oil, 36 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 4: and parsley leaves chopped with extra virgin olive oil. This 37 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 4: has been marked up by Ruthie herself. This is a 38 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 4: proper This feels like an archival document. It reminds me 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 4: of working in the archives. When you see Stalin or 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 4: Kafine the Great, I think in the grate. 41 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: Of restaurants, not to Stalin, you might ask the my stuff. 42 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: They might say, I'm the style. 43 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 3: I'm not asking that question, Ruthie, because I might not 44 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 3: like the answer. 45 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: I don't know enough about it, but I'm happy to 46 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: take a woman over anybody over Starlin. 47 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 4: I think that you're a stalin, but anyway to cook it? 48 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 4: In a large salespan. Cook the garlic, then the olive 49 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 4: oil until soft but not brown. Stir in the parsley, 50 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 4: Add the checoria leads to the oil and braize until 51 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 4: slightly soft before adding the beans. Put three quarters the 52 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 4: beans into a food process so with some of the 53 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 4: reserve cooking liquid, and the mixture should be thicker and thicker, 54 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 4: and return to the saucepan and season. Reheat if too thick, 55 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 4: add more cooking liquid, serve with a generous amount of 56 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 4: extra virgin olive oil. And I've already tried it. 57 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 3: God, am I going to be able to eat all 58 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: that looks delicious? 59 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,920 Speaker 4: I think I'm going to switch plates now from the 60 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 4: Sea Bass too. I'd say this is going to River Cafe, 61 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 4: Georgian lobbyo Beans because people always compare Georgia, which is 62 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 4: one of my favorite countries, to Italy, especially to Sicily 63 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 4: and the food there is a real mixer of Lebanese, Ranium, 64 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 4: Persian and Italian, and they're basically my two favorite countries 65 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 4: in terms of food. 66 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:58,320 Speaker 3: So this soup is the ideal mix. Hi, I want 67 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 3: to take it home with me? Can I take you home? 68 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 4: Remind Joseph? It is absolutely delicious, absolute delicious. Cannot waste 69 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,839 Speaker 4: a single bead, it's so good, and I think you've 70 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 4: got I'll take thank you. 71 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 5: I'm here with Joseph. This is a River Cafe classic recipes. 72 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 6: It really is. It's in the Yellow Books, in the 73 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,479 Speaker 6: book two of our first books, and it's a real 74 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 6: classic that we make. Almost every portion of the suit 75 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 6: that I've ever eaten. Ruthy's made herself, and it really 76 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 6: reminds me of her and arriving here and learning how 77 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 6: to cook. 78 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 1: You know. 79 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,799 Speaker 6: It's that is early days River Cafe for me. Anyway, 80 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,600 Speaker 6: it's more than maybe a bit more wintry. It's one 81 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 6: of those recipes like many that it's just has few ingredients, 82 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 6: you know. So it's has this chequoia, which is a 83 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 6: wonderful green which gets labeled a kind of bitter green, 84 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 6: but really, when it's well cooked, loses an awful lot 85 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 6: of that bitterness and it's really rather sweet. And then 86 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 6: Chile and then if you've got really lovely cannellini beans, 87 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 6: and that's kind of all it is. But it's amazing 88 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 6: how those combination of a few things can be tweaked 89 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 6: in different ways and it can actually be rather different. 90 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 6: But it's you know, it's one of those rather hearty, 91 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 6: quite thick country suits. 92 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 2: What do you think. 93 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 4: I absolutely loved it. It's a delicious mixture. Italian hammer Smith. 94 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:17,600 Speaker 2: Would you say? 95 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 4: Georgia your part, the River Cafe part? And I love 96 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 4: the way you've marked this up. Okay, well to keep 97 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,280 Speaker 4: And because because I found out I liked it, say much, 98 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 4: I found out that they had a bigger pot of it. 99 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 4: So I'm taking that home with me if I'm allowed, 100 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 4: rather calf from the grade of the River Cafe. 101 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 2: So why did you choose it? 102 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 4: I chose it because bean soup has played a big 103 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 4: part in my life, because I started off in the 104 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 4: very early nineties with the fall of the Soviet Union, 105 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 4: and I was always in Georgia, and Georgia became my 106 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 4: favorite home from home. 107 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: I was there for all its. 108 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,320 Speaker 4: Wars, its coups, it's tragedies, but also I came to 109 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 4: love it's food, food, and the heart of its food. 110 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 4: At the heart of Georgian cuisine is the bean soup, 111 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 4: and lobbyer bean soup is the national Georgian dish, one 112 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 4: of them, along with satze, via, kadschapori and all these 113 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 4: other delicious dishes. But in Georgia they have the Georgian Supra, 114 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 4: which is a feast, and there's a tamada who's elected 115 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 4: the toast master. By the way, Stalin was always, of 116 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 4: course toast master at his feasts, but he was a Georgian. 117 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 4: But of course normally the toast masters are a little 118 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 4: bit more benign than that. 119 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: What does a toastmaster do? 120 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 4: He tells stories, He makes toasts quite often, he goes 121 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 4: around the table and clinks glasses with different people. Basically, 122 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 4: what's unique about the tamadam is that he's a storyteller 123 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 4: as well, which brings us back, which is why I 124 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 4: thought food and stories. But you know, I have many. 125 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 4: When I was there, the Soviet Union was falling apart. 126 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 2: This is nineteen ninety. 127 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,479 Speaker 4: Eighty nine, nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety one to sort of 128 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 4: ninety four, and I was very lucky I've been an 129 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 4: investment bank, I believe it or not. And I left 130 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 4: investment banking and I went out there and I was in. 131 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 3: All the wars of the former Soviet Union, but. 132 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 4: Some of my favorite moments were in Georgia eating lobbyo 133 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 4: beans once. I remember in the Assetian Wartias north of Tbilisi. 134 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 4: It's a region that broke away from Georgia and was 135 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 4: backed by Putin and is still backed by Putin. 136 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 3: But I went up to the. 137 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 4: War and I was with the Georgian side, and we 138 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 4: were up at the top on this kind of amazingly 139 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 4: beautiful mountain with these amazing Georgian churches on the mountaintops, 140 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 4: and the fighters all lent their guns against the tree 141 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 4: and a bit, so I was kind of imagining I 142 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 4: was a a heming, you know, for whom the bell tolls. 143 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 4: It was a little bit like that. 144 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: And there was this huge table laid out for a Georgian. 145 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: That's interesting that, during you know, the fighting, they had 146 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: a table for a while. 147 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 4: Three boys had been killed in the village, so this 148 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 4: was their funeral supper. So we all sat down and 149 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 4: the Tamada took control. We all made toasts and everyone 150 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 4: got drunk and drunk, and the food, more and more 151 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 4: food kept arriving. And then after a bit I said 152 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 4: to them, you know, you're gonna imagine we're on the top 153 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 4: of this mountain, the blue sky in the distance. And 154 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 4: I said to them, you know that I guess in 155 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 4: the funeral happened earlier, because you know the boys were 156 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 4: buried earlier. I guess this is their funeral supper. And 157 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 4: they said, no, they're with us, and they lifted up 158 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 4: the table cloth and their bodies were under the table. 159 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 4: So you can see why I have a visceral feeling 160 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 4: for Georgian feasts. 161 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: Would it be very regional the food? 162 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: Did you find that Georgia is very different from Chechna, 163 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: which is different from very. 164 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 4: The Caucusus is fascinating because it's it's the sort of 165 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 4: borderland of empires. So there's a huge Persian influence. They 166 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:50,760 Speaker 4: controlled it for a long time. There's a huge Ottoman 167 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 4: Turkish influence. They controlled it for a long time, and 168 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 4: then the Russians, and now of course it's three independent republics, 169 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 4: and Chechnya tried to break away. I was in the 170 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 4: Chechen War in nineteen ninety four, so I witnessed all 171 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 4: this amazing stuff happening. There's nothing like Georgian food and 172 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 4: Georgian food. It does have a touch of Lebanese food, 173 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 4: touch the Persian food, Persian, Arab and Turkish, but it's 174 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 4: not like any other because it's filled with coriander and 175 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 4: tarragan and walnuts and a jeeka which is sort of 176 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 4: chilli sauce. It's very original, it's not like anything else. 177 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 4: I think you'd love it as it. 178 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: Was with me. 179 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: He has a brother in law based in Osborne and 180 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: he's Georgian and he's actually doing the Georgian Film Festival. 181 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: He called me this morning and has very very strong 182 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: roots in Georgia and brought me a cookbook with a 183 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: chef who had written it. 184 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: And it was so interesting. It was beautifully done. 185 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: First of all, it had a sense of the culture 186 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 1: and that it had the cooking, the dumplings, a lot 187 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: of dumplings too, which. 188 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:53,680 Speaker 3: I forgot the name of. 189 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 4: But all the dishes have a sort of role, and 190 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 4: in that way Geordian foot food. It's almost like the 191 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 4: a story behind many of the dishes. It's not quite 192 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 4: like a passover Sadan Knight, but the Georgian super That's 193 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 4: the thing it's most similar to him is a pass 194 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 4: over dinner because of the storytelling. Yeah, and of course 195 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 4: Stalin used to sit up with his cronies and have 196 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 4: these Georgians. 197 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: I think you alluded to the fact that he was 198 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: a good that he was interested. 199 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 4: He loved Georgian food. His real name was Joseph Dugashphili. 200 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 4: Many in Georgian names end in Adzi or Shwhili, which 201 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 4: means son of and he came from Gorri, which is 202 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,800 Speaker 4: a small town in Georgia. Till it was about thirty 203 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 4: or forty, he was completely Georgian. He spoke Georgian. But 204 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 4: his mother was very ambitious for him and she wanted 205 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 4: him to be a bishop or an archbishop. 206 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 3: She was very religious. 207 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 4: She got him into the seminary in Tibilisi, which is 208 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 4: where he was trained to be a priest. There they 209 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,559 Speaker 4: were taught Russian, very good Russian, and if he hadn't 210 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 4: been taught Russian, he could never rule the Russian Empire 211 00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 4: a Soviet Union. 212 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 1: Do you speak yeah, I can tell, well, I can 213 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: tell when you were naming the soups and the names. 214 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: If you speak Georgian, you have to learn what it's 215 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 2: nothing to do with, nothing to do with no. 216 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 4: It's nothing even has a different alphabet, and they have 217 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 4: an amazing history in the sort of twelve. In the eleventh, twelfth, 218 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 4: thirteenth century, Georgia was a huge kingdom and at one 219 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 4: point under the great Queen Tamara, who's another great female 220 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 4: ruler who I write all about in the World Book. 221 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 4: It ruled from the Black Sea to the Caspian Sea 222 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 4: and was one of the great powers of the Near 223 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 4: East under a female ruler, which is quite something. 224 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: So going back to Stalin and being a good eater, 225 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: when you were writing your book about him, what did 226 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: you find out about his food? 227 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 4: He loved He loved lobbyo, and he loved kadjapori, and 228 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 4: he loved all the soups. He loved loved chakapouli, which 229 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 4: is the lamb stew, and he used to put Georgian 230 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: bread in it, soak it and eat it. He was 231 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 4: a great trenchman, one of his few winning features, I 232 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 4: should say. But the interesting about Stalin was he reinvented 233 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 4: himself several times. I mean, he became Stalin which means 234 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 4: man of steel, in about nineteen twelve and before then 235 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 4: he'd been basically Georgian and Stalin is a kind of 236 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 4: Russian style name, and so he really infented himself. He 237 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 4: was kind of always a Georgian in terms of kind 238 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 4: of eating and drinking. He loved Georgian wine, for example, 239 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 4: and the thing he really loved was Georgians singing. Because 240 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,439 Speaker 4: Stalin surprisingly was the star choir boy of the seminary. 241 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 4: His full setto was supposed to be the most beautiful 242 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 4: full settle, very high and very pure, and when his 243 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 4: voice broke he became a tenor. And even when he 244 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 4: was dictator, even during the terror. 245 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 3: Just after the war. 246 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 4: During the war, he liked to sing to piano and 247 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 4: he used to sing that there's a very famous Georgian 248 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 4: song called Suliko, which he was his speciality was singing there. 249 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 4: So he was this rather sinister choir boy, a choir boy. 250 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: Going back to the beginning and tell me about growing 251 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: up in the Montafoury. 252 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 4: Father was a doctor who was also a psychiatrist. He 253 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 4: had a very fascinating practice, so we grew up in 254 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 4: a very kind of strange household because the surgery was 255 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 4: under the house in Kensington. He had all sorts of patients. 256 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 4: He was the sort of person that saw lots of 257 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 4: people for free. But also he had people like Peter 258 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 4: Seller's and Dudley Moore and Peter Cook. And they actually 259 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 4: did of sketch about him, did they. Yeah, because whatever 260 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 4: you said to my father, whatever terrible thing you'd done 261 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 4: as a child, he'd always say, don't worry, Simon, that's 262 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,000 Speaker 4: perfectly normal. 263 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: That's what from a psychiatrist and a father. 264 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 3: Five Yeah, and a father. 265 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 4: So their sketches, there's there's a sketch where they where 266 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 4: they go to a psychiatrist based on my father and 267 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 4: everything they say to him. 268 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:47,439 Speaker 3: He says, don't worry. That's perfectly as it was the 269 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,079 Speaker 3: connection between the Montefori hospital and the Monterefori family. 270 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, go back, because I tried to do your family 271 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: treat I would say to Michael Ignatief, who was a 272 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: mutual friend of ours, that his family killed my family probably. Yes, 273 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: they were very white Russians, and my family were the 274 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: you know, the fiddle around the real family that came 275 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: from me tour. No, but they don't have a hospital 276 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: named after our so there might be a diversion somewhere. 277 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:13,959 Speaker 1: So just go back to the roots, because I think 278 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: it goes into the eighteenth century, so maybe I can 279 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: trace mine back to about nineteen o six, so I 280 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: think it's quite different. 281 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 4: But tell me, well, my mom's family are from Lithuania 282 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 4: like yours, right, V are you from Kiev? 283 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 6: So we were. 284 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 4: We were lit Vas and some of them for Odessa 285 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 4: and some of them from Galitzia and Galitzianas a notorious 286 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 4: which were dusd from Galicia which is sort of southern 287 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,479 Speaker 4: Poland around and Levolv which is in Ukraine. And Galitzianas 288 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 4: were famous playboys, notorious womanizes and boulevardiers and food and 289 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 4: they loved food. They were set, they were, they were. 290 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: They go together, don't they and you know, do you know. 291 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 3: What they were? They were Epicureans. 292 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, nice, notorious and so that's my mother's family. But 293 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 4: they were interesting because they got out when all the 294 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 4: programs begun in three to four, just around the same 295 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 4: time as we may have been on the same boat. 296 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, but us got off in England and mine went 297 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: to you know, Ellis Island. 298 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 4: Well, mine were tricked. We bought tickets for Ellis Island. 299 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 4: But when week after about two days at sea, they 300 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 4: said I'm afraid that you're getting off here, and so 301 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 4: my family said, but hang on. So we bought tickets 302 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 4: for New York and we haven't seen the Statue of Liberty, 303 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 4: and they said, sorry, look at your tickets. And they 304 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 4: looked at the tickets and they said, that's. 305 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 3: Not New York. It's New Cork. New Cork, Yeah, which 306 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 3: is Ireland. So they got off there. But the Montafis 307 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 3: have a longer story. 308 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: So that's your father's family, Yeah. 309 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 4: My father's family, and they would come the sea banks. 310 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 4: Came from Morocco sebah Sebach, so that's an Arabic name. 311 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 4: And the Montafiories were originally called, we think called Carvero, 312 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 4: which was Spanish, and they were expelled from Spain in 313 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 4: fourteen ninety two. They went to Portage and in Portugal 314 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 4: they were expelled in fourteen ninety eight. So they went 315 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 4: back to Spain and converted to Catholicism. But they were 316 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 4: only pretending they were crypto Jews. And when Philip the 317 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 4: second was trying to recruit governors to govern New Spain, 318 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 4: which was Mexico, he gave them the job of governing 319 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 4: a huge province. But there was a feud. They were 320 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 4: denounced by their servants who spied on them, and they 321 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 4: would announce for secretly being Jews, and most of the 322 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 4: family were burnt alive in Mexico City. It's very sinister 323 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 4: because when you read about these after Cortez, after this 324 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 4: is about sixteen hundred and one son got away and 325 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 4: went to Italy and adopted the name Montefiori because it ends. 326 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 2: As sort of is. 327 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So you grew up in this household a 328 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: mother from his families from Lithuania. Your father felt did 329 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: he identify very strongly with being Jewish, and the. 330 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 3: The family was the very Jewish family. 331 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 4: But my father's family, monte Seabag Montefuries were sort of 332 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 4: fox hunting Jews. 333 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:08,919 Speaker 3: They were very different. 334 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 4: While my mother's family, she would kill me for saying this, 335 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 4: but they were stettle Jews from Lithuania and Poland and 336 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 4: so on. 337 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: And and your mother's mother then she would have been 338 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: born in Lithuania, and she took Lithuanian food. 339 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: No, they didn't cook Lithanian, but they didn't really eat 340 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 4: lat kids and that because bagels and chick but chicken 341 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 4: soup was key. I remember when I was a child, 342 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 4: my parents had a huge row once and my father 343 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 4: was being impossible and my mother just got a thing 344 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 4: of chicken soup and pored it over his head. 345 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:38,359 Speaker 2: Was it hot? 346 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 4: It was not that hot, lucky, but then they started laughing. 347 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 4: But it was a very good for a psychiatrist. Right, 348 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 4: did this psychiatrist say that's not Do you say that's normal? 349 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 3: I think he would. 350 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 4: He would say that was perfectly normal kitchen behavior. I 351 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 4: don't know if that happens in your kitchen, We don't know. 352 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: We stopped short of boring super people. So your father 353 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: would be downstairs with his patients. Would there be family meals? 354 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: Would there be would you say, how many siblings do 355 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 1: you have? 356 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 4: I've got three brothers. I'm the youngest of the whole family. 357 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 4: We were always aware that the surgery was going on downstairs, 358 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 4: and we were always told never repeat anything that you 359 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 4: see in this house because it would ruin your father. 360 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 4: But they were very open us, so we knew all 361 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 4: the stuff that was happening, and all sorts of crazy 362 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 4: stuff happened. People will kind of arrive in the middle 363 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 4: of the night with their sort of having had a 364 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 4: row with their wife, or you know, somebody was giving 365 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 4: birth to a baby or something. 366 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 3: It was like growing up in a theater. It was 367 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 3: very exciting. 368 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 2: And then but she would have would he come up 369 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 2: for dinner? 370 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 3: And then you come up for dinner? 371 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: And who did the cooking? 372 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,040 Speaker 4: My mother did the cooking, and there'd be there would 373 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,679 Speaker 4: always be delicious kind of food, but not really Jewish 374 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 4: food but actually very English food, like roast chickens, roast lambs. 375 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. So she was born and she. 376 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 4: Was born in h She was born and she was 377 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 4: born in Nottingham or Newcastle. Our grandfather was the first 378 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 4: Jewish Lord mayor elected in Newcastle and he ran for 379 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 4: He ran for Lord Mayor and when he was painting, 380 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 4: they used to say, we hear you you lie in 381 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 4: bed all day and he replied, so would you if 382 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,480 Speaker 4: you were married to missus Wolfe, which was which was 383 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 4: which worked. 384 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: Very well, the one in the election. 385 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 4: One on the election and I've got her picture in 386 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 4: my room and she does look. 387 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: Quite quite. 388 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 3: Campaigning. 389 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: It was food important, though, it was it the family 390 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 1: meal that was important. 391 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 3: Food, food was all important. 392 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 4: We're absolutely epicurean ruth and we absolutely live for food 393 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: and we love delicious food and hate bad food. 394 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 2: Did your father. 395 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 3: Cook no, you never cooked. You never cooked. 396 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 2: Did your mother have help? So that she did have 397 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:41,720 Speaker 2: help domestic she. 398 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 4: Did have help, And it was all about meals, and 399 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 4: everything happened at meals, and I still live for eating. 400 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 2: And then your boarding school was that a shock? 401 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 3: There was a shock? Was a shock. 402 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 4: Well, the food was appalling for a start, But on 403 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 4: the other hand, my parents were so kind of over indulgent. 404 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 4: And I think if I hadn't gone to boarding school, 405 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 4: I'm not sure I've ever been able to function at 406 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 4: all in the world. I mean, I was so close 407 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 4: to my parents because I was eight years youngers and after. 408 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 2: Mistake and then boarding school. 409 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 4: And because I was Jewish, I had to have special food. 410 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 4: I remember once go into the kitchen and there was 411 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 4: a very old lady plucking a chicken, and they said, 412 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 4: that's your food, because that's all you can eat. 413 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: There are other Jewish. 414 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,959 Speaker 4: There were virtually no other Jewish children at my prep school, 415 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 4: and then at Harrow there were quite a lot of 416 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 4: Jewish children. 417 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: If you like listening to Ruthie's Table for would you 418 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 1: please make sure to rate and review the podcast on 419 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get 420 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: your podcasts. 421 00:20:50,119 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 2: Thank you you are now historian. 422 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: But in the beginning, did you feel that sense that 423 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: you had to not just write about what was happening 424 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:08,400 Speaker 1: but livett. 425 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, I wrote long letters about describing everything I saw 426 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 4: in the minds, the politics, and of course I worked 427 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 4: in a kibbutz as well in Israel and that was 428 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 4: also fascinating. And I saw amazing things now as well, 429 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 4: because that was the beginning of the invasion of Lebanon, 430 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 4: which was appalling mistake on the Israeli's part. So both 431 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 4: of those things were good preparations. And the third adventure 432 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 4: I went on was going to visit Jewish Refuseniks in 433 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 4: Russia in the Soviet Union with my father. 434 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 2: Was that the first time you worent yes. 435 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 4: And that was the beginning of my relationship with Russia. 436 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 4: And so all of these things kind of were good preparations. 437 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 2: But year was that. 438 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: Eighty four, As I say, I went with Richard to Moscow. 439 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: He was chairman of the tape at the time, and 440 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: the idea was to go with the director to try 441 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: and get an exchange of turners that Britain would give 442 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 1: them for the and I'm in the hermitage that was 443 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: in Leningrad, and we ate nothing. I wanted to have 444 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: the bors. I wanted to have the Russian. 445 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 4: Food, but it was quite severe, it was it was miserable. 446 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 2: Really, did you discover good Russian food? 447 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 4: I didn't find any more food. I mean, I love 448 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 4: stirle at fish. 449 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 2: Sturgeon, surgeon. 450 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that is there's are fish that sort of 451 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 4: mainly live in the Caspian and that they create caveat 452 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 4: of course, but Prince Potemkin loved sturgeon. He was obsessed 453 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 4: with sturgeon. He used to continually roast sturgeon wherever he went, 454 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 4: and he had it brought for him packed in ice, 455 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,960 Speaker 4: of course, all for hundreds of miles. But we didn't 456 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 4: have any of that when we were there. But when 457 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 4: I went back later after farding school, I went to Cambridge. 458 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 2: Let's talk about that for a moment. 459 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: What was it? 460 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 2: Did you live in rooms and did you eat? Again? 461 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 4: I live in rooms in the dining room sometimes, but 462 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 4: what I really loved doing was eating. But there was 463 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 4: a great Turkish kid bab house there and we lived 464 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 4: in there. It was called Omar and Ossy. Omar and 465 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 4: Ossie are very key figures in my university year. So 466 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 4: that was the sort of best food we had. We 467 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 4: used to go there every night and we lived on 468 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 4: that delicious food. And whenever I travel anywhere, I want 469 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 4: to experience the food. And you know, one of the 470 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,360 Speaker 4: reasons why I've often written about family history. 471 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 3: I mean, all of these books. 472 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 4: Like the Romanovs All the World is just because family 473 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 4: is a way of writing, conveying continuity but also depth 474 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,200 Speaker 4: and grit of life. And so I always wanted my 475 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 4: books people to know what people were wearing, what music 476 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 4: they listened to, and what food they were eating. Hopefully, 477 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 4: if I could find out food is what families do together, 478 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 4: even sort of families that barely hang together still eat 479 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 4: together normally, don't they. 480 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: Pre nineteen seventeen, that would be the Roman Macaractor. 481 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:58,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, the Romanovs. 482 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, was there a real sense of pleasure and food? 483 00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: And for wealthy people. I mean would the Romans, what 484 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: would the aristocracy have eaten? 485 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 4: Well, I mean they love French food. Of course, they 486 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,239 Speaker 4: all had French chefs who they brought over. What they 487 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 4: would have eaten all these splendid proper Russian dishes borshed. 488 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about the very garlicy with beetroot. 489 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 2: Do you like it hot? 490 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 3: Ginger? I like it hot? You how do you like? 491 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: My experience of Russian food was there was none of 492 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: none of that in our house. But my father is 493 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: a treat would drive us maybe once every couple of 494 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 1: months and we'd go down to New York City and 495 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: we'd see the big ships and then we would go 496 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: to the Russian tea room for love before seeing a musical. 497 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 3: What would you eat that? 498 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: And so we would have the bleanies and I think 499 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,960 Speaker 1: you could have the choice of cold or heart borsh. 500 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,680 Speaker 1: I prefer it hot as well. You can really feel 501 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: the flavors. 502 00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 4: I think it's delicious. And also there's cinnamon and it 503 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 4: isn't that ginger. And even in my time we used 504 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 4: to have massive amounts of caveat and believing and it 505 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 4: is huge and that is delicious when it's done properly. 506 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 4: And that's course named after the Stroganov family, and they 507 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 4: are fascinating family. They were the conquistadors of Russia. They 508 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 4: were the they were the family that conquered Siberia because 509 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 4: they were called the Cortes of Russia other Strogovs, and 510 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 4: they were They rose from merchants who started off having 511 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 4: sort of salt farms and doing mining and training, and 512 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 4: then they i'ven the Terrible allowed them to expand into 513 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,919 Speaker 4: Siberia and in just a few decades fifty years or 514 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,360 Speaker 4: a little over fifty years, the Russians made it all 515 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,000 Speaker 4: the way to the Pacific and conquered. They had to 516 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 4: just there was an amazing there was an amazing kingdom there 517 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 4: called the Karnate of Sibia, which was a Genghist rule 518 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 4: by Genghis Khans descendants, and they destroyed that, that Karnate, 519 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 4: and then they went unconquered Siberia and the strong offs, 520 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 4: of course became very rich and became counts and aristocracy. 521 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 4: But they started off with their own private army of 522 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 4: Cossacks conquering Siberia. 523 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 3: So that's my struggle. And they were the ones who 524 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 3: was invented. Be strong invent it. 525 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 1: Because I always thought, how fabulous to have a have 526 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: a dish named after you, you know. So we used 527 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: to go to a restaurant in Paris that had the 528 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: Grand before and there was a big treat and they 529 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: would have a dish called pigeon, Prince Ranier whatever. 530 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that would be quite bad. I didn't 531 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 2: know that beef struggle. There's a dessert, isn't its? 532 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's very I'd love to have a dish. 533 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 2: Okay, we could we could name we can think of 534 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 2: a name. 535 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 3: Well, that would be exciting. 536 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: You're interested in history and food and culture and family. 537 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 1: Let's just take Prussia and you know, growing up in 538 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: Russia at a different period of the twentieth century or 539 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 1: the twenty first century, how would food explain some of 540 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: what you're seeing the wealth of the nation, the poverty 541 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: of the nation, the Gorbachev period, the Oligarch period, the 542 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,440 Speaker 1: Putin period. Do you see that kind of. 543 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 4: Reiving food was Food was a hugely important part of 544 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 4: world history and Russian history. And it's interesting because until 545 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 4: about two hundred, one hundred and fifty years ago, it 546 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 4: was still massive famines of the time around the world. 547 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 4: But scientific improvements in fertilizer and medical advances were the 548 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 4: two things that really enabled the explosion of world population 549 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,560 Speaker 4: and the reason why most of the famines in the 550 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 4: twentieth century were actually man made famines. They weren't the 551 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 4: sort of famines that used to happen in the eighteen 552 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 4: forties or in India, and most of them were failures 553 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,359 Speaker 4: of supply rather that or man made political policies. And 554 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 4: an example of that is that you know, is the 555 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 4: other famines in the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties were 556 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 4: there was a huge famine in Russia which the Tsar 557 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 4: Alexander the Third denied existed. Then, of course, after the 558 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 4: Russian Civil War, there was another huge famine in Russia. 559 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 4: Then in the late twenty stalin the civil war do 560 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 4: you mean nineteen eighty nineteen eighteen. 561 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,919 Speaker 2: To twenty one, do you call it a civil war? 562 00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 3: Called the Russian Civil War? 563 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 4: There were two revolutions, one in February seventeen, one in 564 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 4: October seventeen, and for a while the Bolsheviks looked like 565 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 4: they'd keep power but lose most of the Russian Empire. 566 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 4: And then they launched a series of wars from the center, 567 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 4: basing themselves in Moscow again not Petersburg, and they reconquered. 568 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 4: They defeated the divided white powers who were trying to 569 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 4: stop them, and then they started to retake all the 570 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 4: provinces and the ethnic groups that had been part of 571 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 4: the Tsarist Empire, so that included Georgia we were talking 572 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 4: about in Armenia. 573 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 3: Central Asia. 574 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 4: They failed to take Poland, but they succeeded in taking Ukraine, 575 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 4: which was very decisive because Ukraine was the bread basket 576 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 4: of the Russian Empire and traditionally Ukrainian grames exported out 577 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 4: of Odessa and Nikolaiath to the world. But when Stalin 578 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 4: started to collectivize the farms in the late twenties, he 579 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 4: specially victimized the Ukrainians and other minority peoples to the Kazakhs, 580 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 4: like a million and a half Kazakhs also died during collectivization, 581 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 4: so there was a huge famine while selling food abroad. 582 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 4: So the creation of the Soviet Union, the creation of 583 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 4: the Stalin dictatorship, all really was based around shortage of food. 584 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 4: And that was how Stalin broke the peasantry and broke 585 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 4: the Ukrainians was by starving them. 586 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 6: Do you think one of the reasons why Putin still 587 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 6: gets so much support is that he has managed to 588 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 6: create a sort of secure food environment, unlike his processors. 589 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 4: Of course, Putin has a special connection to food because 590 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 4: his grandfather was a chef. I didn't know as a cook, 591 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 4: and he cooked at the store. He was the chef 592 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 4: at the Astoria Hotel which is now owned by Rocco Forte. 593 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 2: Story Hotel Moscow in St. 594 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 4: Petersburg, in St. Peter and he was the chef. The 595 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 4: grandfather was the chef, was one of the chefs there. 596 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 4: And while he was there, of course he cooked for everybody, 597 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 4: but he cooked for a Spoutin and then when there's 598 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 4: where evolution happened. 599 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 3: Strap father grandfather and he joined. 600 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 4: He then joined the secret police the nkv D as 601 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 4: chef and cooked for Lenin and Stalin was one of 602 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 4: Stalin's chefs. So he's one of the most world historic 603 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 4: chefs in all of history because he cooked for us 604 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 4: boot In all sorts of grand dukes of course in 605 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 4: the Astoria Hotel. But then Lenin and Stalin, of course 606 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 4: Stalin chefs were all in this all secret police. They 607 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 4: were called the service staff and they were within the 608 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 4: n k v D. 609 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 2: I wonder if I have any in my kitchen put 610 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: is interested in food. Did you say, do you know 611 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 2: is he a good eater? 612 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 3: I don't think. I don't think he's an epicurean at all. 613 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 3: To be a very very. 614 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 4: Unsympathetic, harsh somewhat joyless man. I would have I would 615 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 4: have said, not very interested in culture. So he does 616 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 4: readly never you've never met I've never met him. 617 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 2: Why not? Did you before? He was before? 618 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 4: I'd like to like to have met him. But then 619 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 4: I'd like to have met everybody. Yeah, you know, as 620 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,479 Speaker 4: a historian, you want to I'd like to have liked 621 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 4: to have met everybody. 622 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: And I've We all have our fans and are not fans, 623 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,239 Speaker 1: and our detractors. But I know that Putin is a 624 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: fan of your work. Hey, how do you know that? 625 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: And also what's it like? 626 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 4: Well, you know, the bizarre thing about Putin was that, 627 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 4: as I said earlier, kaf from the Grade and Potemkin 628 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 4: and the Romanovs like Peter the Great were the people 629 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 4: who got Ukraine for Russia. And so when I wrote 630 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 4: my first book, Ka from the Grade and Petemkin, you know, 631 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 4: I was approached by the Minister of Culture and also 632 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 4: people in the President's office. They said to me, could 633 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 4: you write a little essay because the book isn't translated 634 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 4: into into Russian, could you write a little essay about 635 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 4: this subject? 636 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 3: Which I did. 637 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 4: They said to me, like, we're very interested a certain 638 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 4: important person is very interesting in reading your book and 639 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 4: finding out about the Crimea and how Patenkin took Ukraine 640 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 4: and the Crimea. This is in nineteen ninety nine and 641 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 4: two thousands, twenty three years ago. We were all filled 642 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 4: with hope about dad Emir Putin and that he was 643 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 4: a liberal, and Tony Blair raved about him. And you 644 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 4: may wonder why Russians don't have their own books on 645 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 4: this subject, but the reason is because under Stalin and 646 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 4: the Soviet Union, Catherine the Great and Patenkin were very 647 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 4: out of fashion and weren't studied very much. Anyway, I 648 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 4: did that, and then afterwards, when the book was translated 649 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 4: into Russian, I was approached again by the Minister of 650 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 4: Culture who said, a certain personage has loved your book 651 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 4: and he would like to give you a present. So, 652 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 4: of course, with Vladimir Putin was always a little worried 653 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 4: about what the present's going to be. But the present 654 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 4: was we're opening Stalin's archives. Would you like to be 655 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 4: the first to study to have access to them. So 656 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 4: that was the book Stalin The Call of the Redsar 657 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 4: but jumped twenty two years and when Putin wrote his 658 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 4: essay about how Ukraine didn't exist as a state and 659 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 4: as a people, and started quoting stuff from the history 660 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 4: books like mine. I realized that he was going to 661 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,520 Speaker 4: invade Ukraine. And it's fascinating because when he took Kierson, 662 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 4: the city of Khison, one of Potemkin's cities, that's where 663 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 4: Petemkin is buried. And when he withdrew, which was just 664 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 4: over six months ago, he stole Patmkin's body. 665 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 3: So the history, well, we don't know where it is. 666 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 4: But what I think he's going to do is create 667 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 4: a sort of big tomb in mausoleum in Moscow for 668 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 4: Prince Potemkin. But Prince Potemkin and ca from the Great 669 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 4: were children of the Enlightenment. They'd have hated Putin and 670 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 4: his Russia today. But the full story is in my 671 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 4: books the Romanovs and Caa from the Great and Potemkin. 672 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: The River Cafe is excited to announce the return of 673 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: our Italian in Christmas. Gift boxes are alternative to the 674 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: traditional hamper. They bring you all of our favorites from 675 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: the River Cafe, kitchen, the vineyards and the designers from 676 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: all over Italy. They're available to pre order now on 677 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: Shop The River cafe. 678 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 2: Dot co dot UK. 679 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,520 Speaker 1: When you described Ukraine as the bread basket and the grain, 680 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: I mean that is something we read really since the 681 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,120 Speaker 1: war started. What is happening with the food now? In 682 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,200 Speaker 1: the war is the grain going that? 683 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 4: This has really made Africa sotham more than anywhere right now. 684 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 3: Right now. 685 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,880 Speaker 4: Many African states like South Africa for example, had very 686 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 4: good relations with the Soviet Union and their liberation movements 687 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 4: were backed by the Soviet Union. They blamed the West 688 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 4: and the hypocrisy and in of the West, even though 689 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 4: it's the war of the Russian War and Russian invasion 690 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,799 Speaker 4: of Ukraine that has actually caused the food shortages. But 691 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 4: such as human affairs, it doesn't always it is not 692 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 4: always based on reason. But you know, Ukraine became independent 693 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 4: when the Soviet Union broke up, and in some ways 694 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 4: Ukrainian sense of nation has intensified thanks to Putin's viciousness. 695 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: And food in Ukraine. Have you been during the what 696 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 2: have you been to Ukraine? 697 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 4: I haven't been since the war, but I was there 698 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 4: when I was in the late nineties and I traveled 699 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,879 Speaker 4: to a death I loved. Odessa Do Desa is one 700 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 4: of the great cities in the world. One of my favorites. 701 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,840 Speaker 4: And everyone there eats caviat and of course and sturgeon, 702 00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 4: and sturgeon steak is the best food you have there. 703 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 2: And that's a piece of sturgeon which you've grilled. 704 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: You grill. 705 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, you can have it with some sort of spicy 706 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 4: Caucasian sauce like Adjiki sauce. 707 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 3: It's delicious. 708 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: Tell me, so you are a writer, you have of 709 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: you work at home. I know that your studies in 710 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:07,719 Speaker 1: your house and your wife, Santa also is a So 711 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: tell us about food in your house. Now, we've been 712 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: at your parents' house and boarding school and college and 713 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: traveling as an historian. 714 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 4: We're very pescatarian. We eat a lot of fish, and 715 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 4: we love tuna. We love swordfish, and we grill a 716 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 4: lot of sortfish. We love fresh kind of Mediterranean style food. 717 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,759 Speaker 4: But I also have various specialties. I do some of 718 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,799 Speaker 4: the cooking. And my favorite dish is an amazing sort 719 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 4: of pasta filled with fresh tomatoes, fresh onions, fresh chili, garlic, 720 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 4: and fish. I often put sardines in it, or sea bass, 721 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 4: and it's quite spicy. 722 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 2: I put a lot of chili, a Sicilian sardines. 723 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting about you because the Italians had this 724 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,720 Speaker 1: rule of you never have an egg pasta with fish, 725 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: but we do crab an egg pasta and then and 726 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: you would never have all these kind of rules. You 727 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: won't have cheese with fish in a pasta, and we 728 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,359 Speaker 1: put we do a langustine with peccorina and Parmesant's like 729 00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 1: a fish that I actually ate in Verona, and so 730 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: I think, you know, fish pastas are. 731 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 4: Really Another thing I think is Italian rules are made 732 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 4: to be broken, Yeah, some of them, because they're quite 733 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 4: augmatic about what you can do with their food, and 734 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:22,760 Speaker 4: sometimes you know, one has. 735 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 3: To break rules. Even though this is heresy. 736 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 1: Of course, it's also a regional you know that somebody 737 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:30,680 Speaker 1: in one town will do something and then the next 738 00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 1: town they won't. 739 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 4: Well, it's the same even in small even in Georgia, 740 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 4: which we started off talking about. You know, there's that 741 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,640 Speaker 4: they put eggs in everything in a Jaria, which is 742 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 4: on the coast a Jarian Akazi, which is the Black 743 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 4: Sea coast where Stalin had all his houses, by the way, 744 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 4: but they always put an egg on everything there, while 745 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 4: you know in land in that in the most of 746 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 4: Georgia they don't. 747 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,840 Speaker 2: As true writers. Do you have a routine for your writing? 748 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 2: Do you know that you started a certain time? 749 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 4: It's total chaos, is it. I mean, when I'm not writing, 750 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,439 Speaker 4: I don't. I just don't do anything. And I spend 751 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 4: the whole time sitting in cafes, phony people and texting 752 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 4: people and reading the paper, which is the best thing. 753 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 4: But when I am I'm writing, I live like a 754 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 4: Kohener bite, like a monk. I live in a very 755 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,760 Speaker 4: sort of very disciplined way, and get up it really early. 756 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 3: In the morning, like at six in the morning. 757 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 4: And I mean, writing The World, this is my Natus 758 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 4: book was definitely the hardest thing I've ever done. It 759 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,240 Speaker 4: almost killed me. I mean, obviously it's an insanely ambitious project. 760 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,760 Speaker 7: You tell us what it is, well, it's called it's 761 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 7: called The World a Family History, and it tells the 762 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 7: whole of world history from the Stone Age to the 763 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 7: Drone Age through families in a single narrative. 764 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 4: Some of the families you'd have heard of, you know, 765 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 4: the Robinovs, or the Habsburgs, the Rothchilds, the Kennedy's, and 766 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 4: many of them are quite unpleasant families like the Kim family, 767 00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 4: of North Korea as a big family, we follow them 768 00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 4: over five generations, or the Herold family of Judea who 769 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 4: built the temple, all the Ptolemys of Egypt. They are 770 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 4: some of the most vicious families. But another families you 771 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:09,280 Speaker 4: won't have heard of. Some of them are enslaved families, 772 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 4: some are families of doctors. They're not all rulers in 773 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 4: other words, And the great thing about covering family is 774 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 4: that in terms of diversity, it's a great way you 775 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 4: can cover everywhere the same. And so this book is 776 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 4: probably the most diverse world history ever written. It covers 777 00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 4: Europe is in its rightful place, but also there's Africa, 778 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 4: there's Asia, the South and North America in immense detail. 779 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 4: And of course the other great thing about family histories 780 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 4: it includes women. And we were talking Ruthie about about, 781 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 4: you know, the great women that are covered in this book. 782 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 3: And again some of them. 783 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,879 Speaker 4: Will be familiar Cleopatra Kafrom, the Great Margaret Thatcher, and 784 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,560 Speaker 4: some of them you won't have heard of, but are 785 00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:50,879 Speaker 4: astonishing characters that we should have heard of, like Queen 786 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 4: Tamara of Georgia. But you know, as the spectator said, 787 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 4: it's succession meets Game of Thrones. They has how the 788 00:39:57,640 --> 00:39:59,479 Speaker 4: review described it, So I. 789 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 1: Hope that it's I read this and I thought it 790 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,120 Speaker 1: was a beautiful ending to this book and kind of 791 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: leading us to the end of our really great conversation. 792 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,280 Speaker 1: In this book, I've written of the fall of noble cities, 793 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,640 Speaker 1: the vanishing of kingdoms, the rise and fall of dynasties, 794 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: cruelty and cruelty, folly upon folly, eruptions, massacres, famines, pandemics, 795 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,960 Speaker 1: and pollutions. Yet again and again in these pages, the 796 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:28,440 Speaker 1: high spirits and elevated thoughts, the capacity for joy and kindness, 797 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: the variety and eccentricity of humanity, the faces of love 798 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 1: and the devotion of family run through it all and 799 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: remind me why I started to write. And I thought, 800 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: you know, the optimism and the joy using the word 801 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,240 Speaker 1: joy and life. And that is a very moving piece 802 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,959 Speaker 1: to read by a writer whose work, as I said, 803 00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: informs tell stories, takes us places. And so before we 804 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,760 Speaker 1: do say goodbye, what food would you go to for comfort? 805 00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 4: Or what I love is tar tatar, but sugar burnt, 806 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 4: so that there's it's burnt with a with a sort 807 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,320 Speaker 4: of flat with a fire on top. And I love 808 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 4: eating sugar burns. 809 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:17,600 Speaker 3: Tartta and you make it. I have made it, but 810 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 3: I prefer I prefer I prefer I'm eating it in 811 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 3: delicious restaurants. 812 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for today, and thank you 813 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 2: for coming. 814 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 3: And thanks for having that. So lovely to be lucky me, 815 00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 3: lucky me to thank you so much. 816 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 2: Thanks. 817 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 5: Ruthie's Table four is produced by Atami Studios for iHeartRadio. 818 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,080 Speaker 5: It's hosted by Ruthie Rogers. It's produced by williem Lensky. 819 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 5: Our executive producers are Zad Rodgers and Fay Stewart. Our 820 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,600 Speaker 5: production coordinator is Bella Selini. Special thanks to everyone at 821 00:41:50,600 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 5: The River Cafe.