WEBVTT - ETFs Get Trippy in the Shroom Sector 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:14.240 Well, can a trillions. I'm Joel Weber, So Eric, we 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.280 had this discussion about a new sector that I think 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.760 is a really interesting one. Um. Marijuana has obviously had 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.759 a ton of attention over the past decade and change 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.400 now as it's become more and more legal, but psychedelics 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:31.960 and mushrooms are sort of viewed as the next potential chapter. 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:34.559 And we even have states in the US that are 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:37.280 starting to legalize some of this, and there's even a 0:00:37.360 --> 0:00:40.800 need a new et F that's all about this. Yeah. 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:43.160 I remember I was at my dad's in Florida around 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.559 the New Year's Eve weekend and I looked at my 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.920 e t F clips, which I get sent from Google 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.720 every day, and I was like, a psychedelic eat psychedelic stocks. 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:55.760 I mean, what does that just mean? Like really cool stocks? 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:58.960 And then I looked into it. I'm like, oh my gosh, um, 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:01.880 it's it's track mushrooms. And then I did a little 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:04.959 more research and it it's really crazy that there's a 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:08.000 whole shroom scene. If you go on Twitter, there's like 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:09.960 a lot of people and it reminded me of like 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.759 the early days of cannabis. I don't know, it's stuck 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:14.400 out to me, and I was just very curious about it, 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:16.600 especially because the company who did it is the one 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:21.160 who kicked off the marijuana E t F category essentially, 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:24.960 which is named Horizons. So I was watching this from 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:27.000 the get go. Now it's finally launched and it's up 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:30.200 in Canada. So joining us on this episode of Trillions 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.960 is Steve Hawkins, who is the man behind it, and 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.200 we're gonna talk to him about what it was like 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:38.760 to come up with this idea and bring it to 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:43.280 market and what he hopes to have happened. Do you 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.520 know him, Eric from from your days at inside et F? 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:49.480 Oh yeah, would be happening right about now and the 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.480 sunny climates. I know, you guys love when I dropped 0:01:52.520 --> 0:01:55.320 the word circuit. But I have seen him a lot 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:56.960 on the E t F circuit. I mean you'll bump 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.280 into Sieve at the conferences, especially the ones in Canada, 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.840 and I'm up in Toronto a lot um. So yeah, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.520 he's a great guy. He honestly was. Like I said, 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.320 he was ahead of everybody with the marijuana et F 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.040 and now that's well over a billion dollars that whole category, 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:15.359 so um, and they have a lot of other e 0:02:15.480 --> 0:02:17.560 t s by the way, but that's the one that 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:26.359 is most like this, this new when they have this 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:35.359 time on Trilliance Psychedelics. Steve, Welcome to Trilliance, Joel, Eric, 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.480 thank you very much for having me today. So Eric 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.040 and I were wondering, UM, as we were inviting you on, 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.200 how can we get some samples or do you can 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.320 we get some in kind? Do you do in kind 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:50.760 redemptions with the underlying well, you know, as Americans, there's 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:52.600 not a lot of ways for you to buy Canadian 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:54.160 e t F yet there's you know, there's only a 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.079 couple of little different brokerages. UM, and this e t 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.079 F has listed on the neo stock has changed here. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.359 If you find a US brokerage to buy the units 0:03:02.400 --> 0:03:04.880 of the e t F, you can redeem the main 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:09.280 kind directly with Horizons ETF and we will somehow deliver 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:14.160 you some samples cross border. Wow. That's and I can 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:18.680 tell you've actually been asked this question before. It was honestly, 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.000 when we launched h MMJ in two thousand and seventeen, 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:23.640 it was the very first question that we we got asked. 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:27.200 I went on Bloomberg TV and and Amberg Candlar is like, 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.520 I don't like the ticker, but can I redeem in 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.920 kind for some samples please? I mean, you know, we 0:03:33.040 --> 0:03:36.320 joke and it is funny because I was just talking 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.520 to Joel. I'm like, it's not only mushrooms. There's ketamine 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.120 in there. There's basically a lot of the stuff that 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:44.880 we took in the nineties at parties is now like medicine. 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.800 And I feel like we were actually medical pioneers. We 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.000 were way ahead on curing depression. And you know, what 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:54.720 do you think about that? Isn't that kind of crazy? 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:56.840 That's why it's funny is because this used to be 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.080 the stuff that you weren't supposed to do, and you 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.800 did it parties. Well, the sixties and seventies are back, 0:04:02.880 --> 0:04:04.480 is the way that I'm looking at it. And people 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:07.240 are going to start wearing the tied eye shirts again. 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:09.040 I put I wore a pretty fancy shirt at the 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:11.880 market open the other day. Um. But you know it 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.680 is absolutely it's not just psilocybin. It's not just magic mushrooms. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.760 Ketamine is a very important ingredient out there. There's a 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:24.080 company that's also creating a synthetic psilocybin. So I mean 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.800 one of the Uh. One of the knocks that we 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:28.600 got when we launched h MMJ is we had in 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:32.440 an investing company in there that was creating UM synthetic 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:34.640 CBD and people didn't like that. It's like this is 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.200 anti marijuana. But you know, this is all really a 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:42.120 part about the drug industry and therapeutics for you know, 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:45.359 the over seven hundred million people in the world that 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.000 are suffering from mental illness and eating disorders and depression, 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.840 uh and addiction and uh. You know this is these 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:56.960 are being tested drugs. This is not a recreational thing, 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.320 even though that's where sort of a lot of the 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.880 marijuanas industry is very focused. UM. The psychedelics industry is 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:07.800 really focused on science and going through the rigorous f 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.719 d A and Health Canada drug testing protocols to bring 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:16.120 real therapeutic drugs to marketplace. And I mean that that 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.920 is a really interesting thing to talk about. And if 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:22.440 you followed UM journalists like Michael Pollen, who has been 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:25.320 writing about a lot in this space for actually for 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.839 years now, UM, you know, it does feel like it 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:31.520 could be the sort of the tip of the spear 0:05:31.600 --> 0:05:34.839 for how we treat a lot of things like PTSD 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.440 UM depression. So how big of an opportunity do you 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:43.560 think this could be, Steve, I mean, right now, it's 0:05:44.080 --> 0:05:47.000 we just really don't know. I mean, there's a there's 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:49.599 over according to the World Health Organizations, there's over seven 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:52.080 night er million people that are suffering some from some 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:56.200 form of mental illness. In this regard, you know, depression 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.919 and clinical depression really haven't seen any advancements in treatment 0:06:00.440 --> 0:06:04.320 in decades UM, and it's really only as a result 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.240 of some of the things that Eric mentioned earlier, like 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:11.599 state laws changing, um, new exemptions coming in for companies 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.520 in Canada. You know, we've we've created new rules around 0:06:15.560 --> 0:06:17.640 health Canada. I mean, we were the first, you know, 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:22.720 G seven company to country to legalize marijuana. But the 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:26.159 drug market itself, for the illicit drug market, is starting 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:28.360 to the government is really starting to look at things 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.680 a little bit differently and allow companies to do more 0:06:31.720 --> 0:06:35.240 and more testing in this regard to open it up. UM. 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.400 But you know, with J and J as as an example, 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.200 is a company that's in here because they came to 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:45.240 market with Academie drug, which was developed from a molecule 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.479 from a Canadian psychedelics company, which then sold it to 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:51.599 a company which then J and J bought and now 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:56.480 they have a nasal based spray depression drug which is 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.640 hit the marketplace. Uh. And you know, a VA, another 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.479 very large drug company, is also working on on a 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:06.440 ketamin um anti depression drug as well, which is still 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:12.480 in testing. But there's so many different new psychedelic opportunities 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:15.320 and therapies that are going there. But like some of 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.920 the companies are working strictly on the delivery mechanism of 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.280 those therapeutics as well. So it's not it's you know, 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.000 how can we do micro dosing of LSD more efficiently? 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:29.320 You know, I mean I've never micro dosd LSD yet, 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.680 but you know, I think it's something that I might 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:33.640 have to think about if I was a depressed person. 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:36.000 I'm not really, but uh, you know, I have other 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.080 potential addictions that I might have to treat with my 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:43.800 micro LSD. So we'll go from there. Well, I'm sure 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:45.680 you can cope with some new et f ideas. If 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:48.240 you start doing that, I'm sure we'll get even more 0:07:48.320 --> 0:07:51.440 creative over there. Um. But in serious, all seriousness, I 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.440 think one thing I thought I thought about cannabis and 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:58.000 shrooms and all and all this stuff becoming a little 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:00.200 more accepted in mainstream is the fact that there was 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:05.160 an opioid crisis and people are looking for some other 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:08.000 way to treat a lot of things that aren't that 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.920 is that did that open the gateway to this or 0:08:10.920 --> 0:08:13.120 do you think this all of this stuff would have 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:17.120 would have happened regardless. I mean, I think that was 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.000 a big genesis to the sort of cannabis revolution that 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:24.400 we started to see in in late and becoming significantly 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.360 more stream, more mainstream. I think you're absolutely right from 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:33.240 a medical therapeutics perspective, because cannabis, like CBD especialty, is 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:37.839 significantly safer um than fent and all and other opioids 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:43.360 which can significantly which are very very addictive. Um. You know, 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:47.240 the thing with micro dosing and psilocybin and ketamine is 0:08:47.640 --> 0:08:51.200 it's still in the early stages of sort of approvals 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.760 and testing and things like that, and we and they've 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:56.800 been they've been highly addictive in the past, but it's 0:08:56.840 --> 0:09:00.920 really the micro dozing um and that is sort of 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.520 moving away from the addictive opioids that we're saying. And 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.960 so I would h P agree that it was a 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:13.480 genesis of of an entire movement in pharmaceutical therapeutics UM 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.200 to move away from opioids, and doctors are so much 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:22.800 more inclined to prescribe UM non addictive therapies to treat 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.200 like clinical depression and things like that. And that's where 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.160 I think back to Joel's point, there is a huge 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.480 opportunity from a global perspective for this industry. I mean, 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.480 the one thing that we really have to think about 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.280 from behind the scenes though, is still is there's still 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:43.800 a stigma to magic mushrooms and to psychedelics and um. 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:47.440 You know, cannabis is much more mainstream from a everyday 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:51.280 recreational use. This is really you know, psychedelics is not 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:55.400 doesn't really have a recreational opportunity except in a very 0:09:55.480 --> 0:10:04.839 very small portion of the marketplace. I'm actually curious about 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.840 that the stigma that you mentioned though, because as we 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:13.880 saw with cannabis, really it just takes time and suddenly 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:17.280 that that perception can change. I mean, do you think 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:21.000 that's true of this opportunity in in the psychedelic space 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:25.360 or is the is the stigma completely different than than cannabis. No, 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:29.440 I mean, because this is going to be like doctor 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:33.360 prescribed medicines for you. I think that stigma is going 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.960 to go away very very quickly as soon as we 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.320 see real results happening with people. And we've already seen 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:41.040 that in a lot of their drug testing already. I 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:46.080 mean there's probably twenty five to thirty drugs specifically in 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.640 drug testing right now in in phase two Phase two A, 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.400 phase two B testing. That there's some in phase three 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.840 testing UM. And I really think that as there are 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.840 more drugs approved, there are more doctors that are prescribing 0:10:59.880 --> 0:11:03.920 these medicines. Just like you see with CBD CBD oil 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:08.920 CB treatment, CBD UM ointments on your knees. Uh, We're 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.920 going to see a significant ramp up in the use 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:17.040 of psychedelic based therapies. So the actually really interesting thing 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.440 there to have that many drugs and development and frankly 0:11:20.800 --> 0:11:23.480 only a handful that are already sort of out there 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.080 and available. I mean that kind of presents a challenge 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:27.560 for you to bring an e t F to market. 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:31.040 And I'm curious when you look through your holdings. You 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:33.520 know your top ten there, you mentioned a couple of 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.800 them already, but how are you navigating that challenge? And 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.440 then what of those top holdings do you find to 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.680 be really really interesting. Well, I mean we put a 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:44.960 couple of big farming in there that are that are 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.160 you know, touching this space, that are not necessarily that active, 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:50.000 and we had to do that to sort of round 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.199 out the portfolio and get enough diversity in in the 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.040 explosure of the portfolio, I mean similar and only launched 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:59.080 d MMJ. We had Scott's Miracle grew in there, which 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:01.360 people are why did you putcot Smoker. Well, it's very 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.360 very active in the in the cannabis space, cannabis growing 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.920 opportunities here. We as I mentioned, we have J and 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.679 J and Abbey. Um. You know, but some of the 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:15.240 bigger companies that have out there recently my Men, which 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:17.520 did a very very large I p O which is 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.240 a New York based company, but it's obviously it's listed 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.199 on a Canadian stock exchange because no u S stock 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:27.040 exchange will list potentially illegally operating company at this point 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.480 in time. UM. But Cybin, which is one of my 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:33.760 near and dear favorites, which is one of the largest 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:36.839 companies in there as well from a way perspective, has 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:41.240 so many drug therapies UM in process. But not only 0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:44.680 that is, they're very very focused on the whole delivery 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:48.400 mechanism and you know, micro dosing through a mental health 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:52.719 professional in the past it's taken like three to four hours. 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:56.439 Like that just doesn't you can't sustain a significant amount 0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:00.800 of population and therapeutic addresses with that long of a treatment. 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.000 You know, there's got to be a better way to 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:10.080 do this. Micro LSD implementation and the therapeutic applications of 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.960 the mechanisms and the devices is going to be very 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.240 very important to this industry as well. But I mean 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.160 those are sort of like the compass um Compass Pathways, 0:13:19.360 --> 0:13:21.559 which is a UK based firm listed in the US. 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.520 UM is also very big in this space as well, 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.360 and they're the ones that are sort of creating the 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:32.000 the synthetic psilocybin um and they have some derivatives that 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:34.719 they're making out of that, which has been very very 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.760 positive as well from a from a physical test perspective. 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:41.520 Um to your point about you know, how could we 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.120 create an et F, it was really the changes in 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:48.160 the capital markets in with UM, some of the state 0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:51.400 rules changing, some of the company's being coming more active. 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:53.520 You know, it's still I'm gonna say you know, a 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.680 microcap small cap portfolio on an overall basis, but it's very, 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:02.600 very focused on the psychedelics industry itself. Uh. And it's 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:04.960 just you know, we have more names in the portfolio 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:06.720 now though than we launched when we launched the first 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.880 marijuana e t F because we only had fifteen names 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:12.920 in the portfolio. We launched with seventeen names in the 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:17.800 portfolio this week. Yeah, I actually wrote about it in 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:19.840 a note and two things struck me. One was just 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:24.080 the seriousness of all of the medical research, the grants. 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.080 You know, you go on Johns Hopkins has a whole 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:29.920 team dedicated to this, and it quickly realized this is 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.680 serious business, um, even though we joked earlier. And then 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.320 the other thing is how small the companies were. And 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.360 you address this a little bit, but for let's use 0:14:39.400 --> 0:14:41.840 et F nerd out a little bit here. If you're 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:45.320 designing the CTF and you obviously want to capture this 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.960 as best you can, but then you see like Johnson 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:51.320 and Johnson in there. Obviously, I'm sure psychedelics are a 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.680 tiny fraction of their overall revenue. Do you plan to 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:59.400 sort of um work out those bigger names as the 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.920 smaller eyes get bigger and go turn into small and 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.960 mid caps. How does that process work when you're trying 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.080 to capture this as purely as possible. I mean, that's 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:11.560 that's a great question, Eric. And and you know, if 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.320 you look at the evolution and the maturity of the 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.640 cannabis market, right from the very start to the end. 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.880 I mean, our our underlying index to h MMJ has 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:25.360 changed seven times since we launched in seen as that 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:29.440 market has evolved, as market caps have significantly grown. Um, 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:32.240 you know, we've actually had to reduce them the portfolio, 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:36.800 we've reduced the sort of non marijuana focus names. Um. 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.160 And that's exactly what's here. I mean with Big Farmer, 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.080 we actually there's a cap in the fund for individual 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:47.480 and overall exposure, but that actually will go down over 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:51.240 time as the rest of the industry sort of UH 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:54.880 grows and matures. As you said, and you know, there's 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:56.840 a lot of sort of we had to build this 0:15:56.960 --> 0:16:00.520 index so that it would actually change. And sure with 0:16:00.640 --> 0:16:04.960 the industry itself and the UH, the underlying stock price 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.000 will increase, the average daily trading volume will increase, the 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.200 market cap threshold to get into the index, all of 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.920 those things will increase UM as the industry itself matures, 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.120 and that's that was very very important to us as 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.080 building UM in building this index for the fund. I'm 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.080 actually curious just on that idea of of you know, 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.360 this the evolution if you will, of the e t 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.320 F and the holdings and the waitings. What did you 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:34.800 learn from having the cannabis cannabis et F before that 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:39.520 helped you navigate the launch of this one. Dealing with 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:42.760 third party service providers which was one of the biggest 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:46.320 pains in my butt when launching HMMJ and like getting 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:50.320 your auditors, your custodian, the stock exchange, UM, it wasn't 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.640 the regulator. The stock regulators are fund regulators. What was 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:58.920 right to the easiest part um And here going into 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.920 the psychedelic space, there was for a lot of the 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:03.960 third parties. Again, there was a lot of i'll call 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:06.919 it reputational risk. So I had to go to a 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.840 different stock exchange that allows psychedelic companies to be listed 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:13.680 on it UM, and I had to go through a 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:17.800 significant amount of uh sort of approval processes with our 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:20.960 third party service providers like you know we B and 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:24.200 y Melon as our custodian and they are the largest 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:27.720 global custodian out there, and UM, you know, it was 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:30.359 a process to to get the approvals for that, and 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.480 UM you know that was getting all of those approvals 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:37.760 in advance was very very important for the timing of 0:17:37.920 --> 0:17:39.840 we wanted to get launch, because when we tried to 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.119 launch h M M J, I mean it took us 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.560 four months to get those approvals. Here, I got all 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.680 those approvals at a time. But going back to Eric's 0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.880 point about the sort of the evolution of the underlying industry, 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.399 I would say that is the single biggest lesson we 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:58.440 learned was how to build an index that changes over 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.400 time as an industry with years. So we're in here 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.240 early for sure, and we know that. But one of 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.760 the great things about an et F is it supports 0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.920 the underlying industry itself. There's almost like a self fulfilling 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:15.120 UM promise here to to do well because you're supporting 0:18:15.440 --> 0:18:19.399 this psychedelic industry itself. And we're very very happy to 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:23.000 be in this industry where it can be so beneficial 0:18:23.080 --> 0:18:26.040 to the UH, to the public itself at the end 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.119 of the day. And you know, another kind of E 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:31.439 T F NERD question. But I think important as an investor. 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:35.240 One of the things about HMMJ that was fascinating is 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:39.159 you guys broke the record for positive tracking error or 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.080 tracking difference. In other words, if you look at the 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.239 first year and a half of this fund, it was up, 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.680 but the index is only up normally an e t F, 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.639 you're lucky if it tracks perfectly. This was giving you 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.040 twenty six percentage points have doubled it. It was almost 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.560 like you're an active manager. And obviously this is because 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:04.080 you were lending out shares of the stocks because people 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:05.880 wanted to short them, and they'll pay you a fee 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.160 for it, and you're able to put that back into 0:19:08.200 --> 0:19:10.760 the fund. Um. It has gone down a little bit. 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:14.120 I guess the interest to short has subsided a bit 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.600 on cannabis. But do you see that as being something 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.240 that would also help with the new ETF in terms 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.440 of having some of these smaller, harder to get stocks 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:25.280 and then being able to use some of that money 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:29.600 to to use performance a little Absolutely that is going 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:31.760 to happen here as well. You know, I mean Robin 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:34.879 Hood really changed the lending market last year, and you know, 0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:39.320 after three very very strong years of lending in the 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:43.800 cannabis space, UM lending rates. As soon as robin Hood 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.280 went on line and started lending, lending rates in the 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:53.040 cannabis sector went down almost from where they were or 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:59.200 from a hundred UM. And in this day, in this space, 0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:01.520 it's still very very early. There's still a lot of 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.119 founder stock, there's still a lot of restricted stock, the 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.520 floats are much smaller in these companies, and there's a 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:11.160 significant lending opportunity. So again we're gonna do We're gonna 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.720 be dealing with UM. The average lending rate in our 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:21.520 portfolio is uh probably minus thirty or three thousand basis 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:24.159 points minus thirty we call it in the in the 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:28.600 lending terms UM from an annualized lending rate, so that 0:20:28.600 --> 0:20:30.679 that could you know, we're allowed to lend up to 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:33.560 fifty percent of the portfolio at this point in time. 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.760 In theory, we're going to be paying you to own 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.800 psychedelic stocks between ten and fift on an annualized basis 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:44.040 without any stock movement at all. That is an amazing 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.320 This is Joel, I mean, we talked about you know 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.960 this whole Wall Street bets wants to like stick it 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:54.000 to the hedge funds. This is a this is a 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.720 very safe and legal way to do that, because hedge 0:20:57.760 --> 0:20:59.320 funds are the one who liked to short stock. So 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:02.520 a lot of ETFs, not just horizons. We talk with vanguards. 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.520 Jerry O'Riley, he does it with the biggest fund in 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:09.119 the world. Where you get money from hedge funds to 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.280 subsidize the the e t F. In Jerry's case, it's 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:14.119 a few BIPs. In this case it's it can be 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.600 a lot. I find that fascinating that the small investor 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.440 is getting paid by the hedge funds through the e 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:23.080 t F lending process. I don't know. I just that's 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:25.520 a people don't talk about it much, but in this 0:21:25.600 --> 0:21:28.960 space it can be very dramatic and really give you 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:32.439 extra return. Okay, So I I hate to bring just 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.280 a little bit of anxiety to the party, but it 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:39.200 seems fitting since you know, we're talking about psychedelics and 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:41.600 there's always going to be like a little bit of 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:46.919 weirdness um associated with trips. But Steve Um, you know, 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:50.440 there are considerable challenges that you're going to face yet, 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.480 and some of those are gonna be probably regulatory and 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.960 adoption and results of of the clinical trials and everything 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.359 else that we've talked about, UM, how are you thinking 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:04.359 about what that downside and what those risks might look 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.040 like for this opportunity, because it does seem like, you know, 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:13.399 it's early and things could change dramatically. How are you 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:16.479 assessing that? I mean, those are those are all very 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.560 good points, Joel. I mean the big thing here is this, 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.480 we believe that this is a very early stage opportunity, 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:26.240 much like cannabis was in seen and we've seen some 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:30.359 significant highs and significant lows to that industry as it 0:22:30.400 --> 0:22:33.800 has matured UM, and I don't doubt that we're going 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.840 to see that here. The one nice thing is all 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:40.000 of these companies have been able to raise significance amount 0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:42.960 of capital of late, very very easily. They've been going 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:48.159