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Speaker 1: Well, can a trillions. I'm Joel Weber, So Eric, we

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Speaker 1: had this discussion about a new sector that I think

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Speaker 1: is a really interesting one. Um. Marijuana has obviously had

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Speaker 1: a ton of attention over the past decade and change

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Speaker 1: now as it's become more and more legal, but psychedelics

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Speaker 1: and mushrooms are sort of viewed as the next potential chapter.

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Speaker 1: And we even have states in the US that are

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Speaker 1: starting to legalize some of this, and there's even a

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Speaker 1: need a new et F that's all about this. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I remember I was at my dad's in Florida around

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Speaker 1: the New Year's Eve weekend and I looked at my

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Speaker 1: e t F clips, which I get sent from Google

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Speaker 1: every day, and I was like, a psychedelic eat psychedelic stocks.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what does that just mean? Like really cool stocks?

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Speaker 1: And then I looked into it. I'm like, oh my gosh, um,

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Speaker 1: it's it's track mushrooms. And then I did a little

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Speaker 1: more research and it it's really crazy that there's a

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Speaker 1: whole shroom scene. If you go on Twitter, there's like

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Speaker 1: a lot of people and it reminded me of like

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Speaker 1: the early days of cannabis. I don't know, it's stuck

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Speaker 1: out to me, and I was just very curious about it,

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Speaker 1: especially because the company who did it is the one

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Speaker 1: who kicked off the marijuana E t F category essentially,

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Speaker 1: which is named Horizons. So I was watching this from

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Speaker 1: the get go. Now it's finally launched and it's up

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Speaker 1: in Canada. So joining us on this episode of Trillions

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Speaker 1: is Steve Hawkins, who is the man behind it, and

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk to him about what it was like

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Speaker 1: to come up with this idea and bring it to

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Speaker 1: market and what he hopes to have happened. Do you

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Speaker 1: know him, Eric from from your days at inside et F?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, would be happening right about now and the

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Speaker 1: sunny climates. I know, you guys love when I dropped

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Speaker 1: the word circuit. But I have seen him a lot

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Speaker 1: on the E t F circuit. I mean you'll bump

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Speaker 1: into Sieve at the conferences, especially the ones in Canada,

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Speaker 1: and I'm up in Toronto a lot um. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's a great guy. He honestly was. Like I said,

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Speaker 1: he was ahead of everybody with the marijuana et F

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Speaker 1: and now that's well over a billion dollars that whole category,

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Speaker 1: so um, and they have a lot of other e

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Speaker 1: t s by the way, but that's the one that

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Speaker 1: is most like this, this new when they have this

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Speaker 1: time on Trilliance Psychedelics. Steve, Welcome to Trilliance, Joel, Eric,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much for having me today. So Eric

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Speaker 1: and I were wondering, UM, as we were inviting you on,

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Speaker 1: how can we get some samples or do you can

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Speaker 1: we get some in kind? Do you do in kind

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Speaker 1: redemptions with the underlying well, you know, as Americans, there's

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Speaker 1: not a lot of ways for you to buy Canadian

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Speaker 1: e t F yet there's you know, there's only a

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Speaker 1: couple of little different brokerages. UM, and this e t

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Speaker 1: F has listed on the neo stock has changed here.

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Speaker 1: If you find a US brokerage to buy the units

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Speaker 1: of the e t F, you can redeem the main

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Speaker 1: kind directly with Horizons ETF and we will somehow deliver

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Speaker 1: you some samples cross border. Wow. That's and I can

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Speaker 1: tell you've actually been asked this question before. It was honestly,

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Speaker 1: when we launched h MMJ in two thousand and seventeen,

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Speaker 1: it was the very first question that we we got asked.

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Speaker 1: I went on Bloomberg TV and and Amberg Candlar is like,

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Speaker 1: I don't like the ticker, but can I redeem in

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Speaker 1: kind for some samples please? I mean, you know, we

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Speaker 1: joke and it is funny because I was just talking

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Speaker 1: to Joel. I'm like, it's not only mushrooms. There's ketamine

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Speaker 1: in there. There's basically a lot of the stuff that

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Speaker 1: we took in the nineties at parties is now like medicine.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like we were actually medical pioneers. We

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Speaker 1: were way ahead on curing depression. And you know, what

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Speaker 1: do you think about that? Isn't that kind of crazy?

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Speaker 1: That's why it's funny is because this used to be

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Speaker 1: the stuff that you weren't supposed to do, and you

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Speaker 1: did it parties. Well, the sixties and seventies are back,

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Speaker 1: is the way that I'm looking at it. And people

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Speaker 1: are going to start wearing the tied eye shirts again.

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Speaker 1: I put I wore a pretty fancy shirt at the

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Speaker 1: market open the other day. Um. But you know it

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Speaker 1: is absolutely it's not just psilocybin. It's not just magic mushrooms.

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Speaker 1: Ketamine is a very important ingredient out there. There's a

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Speaker 1: company that's also creating a synthetic psilocybin. So I mean

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Speaker 1: one of the Uh. One of the knocks that we

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Speaker 1: got when we launched h MMJ is we had in

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Speaker 1: an investing company in there that was creating UM synthetic

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Speaker 1: CBD and people didn't like that. It's like this is

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Speaker 1: anti marijuana. But you know, this is all really a

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Speaker 1: part about the drug industry and therapeutics for you know,

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Speaker 1: the over seven hundred million people in the world that

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Speaker 1: are suffering from mental illness and eating disorders and depression,

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Speaker 1: uh and addiction and uh. You know this is these

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Speaker 1: are being tested drugs. This is not a recreational thing,

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Speaker 1: even though that's where sort of a lot of the

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Speaker 1: marijuanas industry is very focused. UM. The psychedelics industry is

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Speaker 1: really focused on science and going through the rigorous f

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Speaker 1: d A and Health Canada drug testing protocols to bring

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Speaker 1: real therapeutic drugs to marketplace. And I mean that that

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Speaker 1: is a really interesting thing to talk about. And if

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Speaker 1: you followed UM journalists like Michael Pollen, who has been

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Speaker 1: writing about a lot in this space for actually for

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Speaker 1: years now, UM, you know, it does feel like it

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Speaker 1: could be the sort of the tip of the spear

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Speaker 1: for how we treat a lot of things like PTSD

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Speaker 1: UM depression. So how big of an opportunity do you

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Speaker 1: think this could be, Steve, I mean, right now, it's

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Speaker 1: we just really don't know. I mean, there's a there's

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Speaker 1: over according to the World Health Organizations, there's over seven

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Speaker 1: night er million people that are suffering some from some

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Speaker 1: form of mental illness. In this regard, you know, depression

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Speaker 1: and clinical depression really haven't seen any advancements in treatment

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Speaker 1: in decades UM, and it's really only as a result

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Speaker 1: of some of the things that Eric mentioned earlier, like

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Speaker 1: state laws changing, um, new exemptions coming in for companies

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Speaker 1: in Canada. You know, we've we've created new rules around

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Speaker 1: health Canada. I mean, we were the first, you know,

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Speaker 1: G seven company to country to legalize marijuana. But the

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Speaker 1: drug market itself, for the illicit drug market, is starting

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Speaker 1: to the government is really starting to look at things

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Speaker 1: a little bit differently and allow companies to do more

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Speaker 1: and more testing in this regard to open it up. UM.

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Speaker 1: But you know, with J and J as as an example,

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Speaker 1: is a company that's in here because they came to

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Speaker 1: market with Academie drug, which was developed from a molecule

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Speaker 1: from a Canadian psychedelics company, which then sold it to

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Speaker 1: a company which then J and J bought and now

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Speaker 1: they have a nasal based spray depression drug which is

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Speaker 1: hit the marketplace. Uh. And you know, a VA, another

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Speaker 1: very large drug company, is also working on on a

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Speaker 1: ketamin um anti depression drug as well, which is still

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Speaker 1: in testing. But there's so many different new psychedelic opportunities

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Speaker 1: and therapies that are going there. But like some of

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Speaker 1: the companies are working strictly on the delivery mechanism of

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Speaker 1: those therapeutics as well. So it's not it's you know,

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Speaker 1: how can we do micro dosing of LSD more efficiently?

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Speaker 1: You know, I mean I've never micro dosd LSD yet,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I think it's something that I might

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Speaker 1: have to think about if I was a depressed person.

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Speaker 1: I'm not really, but uh, you know, I have other

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Speaker 1: potential addictions that I might have to treat with my

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Speaker 1: micro LSD. So we'll go from there. Well, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you can cope with some new et f ideas. If

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Speaker 1: you start doing that, I'm sure we'll get even more

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Speaker 1: creative over there. Um. But in serious, all seriousness, I

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Speaker 1: think one thing I thought I thought about cannabis and

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Speaker 1: shrooms and all and all this stuff becoming a little

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Speaker 1: more accepted in mainstream is the fact that there was

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Speaker 1: an opioid crisis and people are looking for some other

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Speaker 1: way to treat a lot of things that aren't that

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Speaker 1: is that did that open the gateway to this or

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Speaker 1: do you think this all of this stuff would have

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Speaker 1: would have happened regardless. I mean, I think that was

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Speaker 1: a big genesis to the sort of cannabis revolution that

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Speaker 1: we started to see in in late and becoming significantly

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Speaker 1: more stream, more mainstream. I think you're absolutely right from

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Speaker 1: a medical therapeutics perspective, because cannabis, like CBD especialty, is

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Speaker 1: significantly safer um than fent and all and other opioids

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Speaker 1: which can significantly which are very very addictive. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: the thing with micro dosing and psilocybin and ketamine is

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Speaker 1: it's still in the early stages of sort of approvals

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Speaker 1: and testing and things like that, and we and they've

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Speaker 1: been they've been highly addictive in the past, but it's

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Speaker 1: really the micro dozing um and that is sort of

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Speaker 1: moving away from the addictive opioids that we're saying. And

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Speaker 1: so I would h P agree that it was a

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Speaker 1: genesis of of an entire movement in pharmaceutical therapeutics UM

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Speaker 1: to move away from opioids, and doctors are so much

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Speaker 1: more inclined to prescribe UM non addictive therapies to treat

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Speaker 1: like clinical depression and things like that. And that's where

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Speaker 1: I think back to Joel's point, there is a huge

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Speaker 1: opportunity from a global perspective for this industry. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the one thing that we really have to think about

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Speaker 1: from behind the scenes though, is still is there's still

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Speaker 1: a stigma to magic mushrooms and to psychedelics and um.

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Speaker 1: You know, cannabis is much more mainstream from a everyday

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Speaker 1: recreational use. This is really you know, psychedelics is not

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Speaker 1: doesn't really have a recreational opportunity except in a very

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Speaker 1: very small portion of the marketplace. I'm actually curious about

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Speaker 1: that the stigma that you mentioned though, because as we

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Speaker 1: saw with cannabis, really it just takes time and suddenly

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Speaker 1: that that perception can change. I mean, do you think

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Speaker 1: that's true of this opportunity in in the psychedelic space

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Speaker 1: or is the is the stigma completely different than than cannabis. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because this is going to be like doctor

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Speaker 1: prescribed medicines for you. I think that stigma is going

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Speaker 1: to go away very very quickly as soon as we

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Speaker 1: see real results happening with people. And we've already seen

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Speaker 1: that in a lot of their drug testing already. I

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Speaker 1: mean there's probably twenty five to thirty drugs specifically in

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Speaker 1: drug testing right now in in phase two Phase two A,

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Speaker 1: phase two B testing. That there's some in phase three

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Speaker 1: testing UM. And I really think that as there are

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Speaker 1: more drugs approved, there are more doctors that are prescribing

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Speaker 1: these medicines. Just like you see with CBD CBD oil

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Speaker 1: CB treatment, CBD UM ointments on your knees. Uh, We're

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Speaker 1: going to see a significant ramp up in the use

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Speaker 1: of psychedelic based therapies. So the actually really interesting thing

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Speaker 1: there to have that many drugs and development and frankly

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Speaker 1: only a handful that are already sort of out there

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Speaker 1: and available. I mean that kind of presents a challenge

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Speaker 1: for you to bring an e t F to market.

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Speaker 1: And I'm curious when you look through your holdings. You

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Speaker 1: know your top ten there, you mentioned a couple of

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Speaker 1: them already, but how are you navigating that challenge? And

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Speaker 1: then what of those top holdings do you find to

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Speaker 1: be really really interesting. Well, I mean we put a

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Speaker 1: couple of big farming in there that are that are

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Speaker 1: you know, touching this space, that are not necessarily that active,

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Speaker 1: and we had to do that to sort of round

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Speaker 1: out the portfolio and get enough diversity in in the

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Speaker 1: explosure of the portfolio, I mean similar and only launched

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Speaker 1: d MMJ. We had Scott's Miracle grew in there, which

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Speaker 1: people are why did you putcot Smoker. Well, it's very

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Speaker 1: very active in the in the cannabis space, cannabis growing

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Speaker 1: opportunities here. We as I mentioned, we have J and

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Speaker 1: J and Abbey. Um. You know, but some of the

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Speaker 1: bigger companies that have out there recently my Men, which

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Speaker 1: did a very very large I p O which is

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Speaker 1: a New York based company, but it's obviously it's listed

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Speaker 1: on a Canadian stock exchange because no u S stock

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Speaker 1: exchange will list potentially illegally operating company at this point

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Speaker 1: in time. UM. But Cybin, which is one of my

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Speaker 1: near and dear favorites, which is one of the largest

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Speaker 1: companies in there as well from a way perspective, has

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Speaker 1: so many drug therapies UM in process. But not only

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Speaker 1: that is, they're very very focused on the whole delivery

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Speaker 1: mechanism and you know, micro dosing through a mental health

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Speaker 1: professional in the past it's taken like three to four hours.

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Speaker 1: Like that just doesn't you can't sustain a significant amount

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Speaker 1: of population and therapeutic addresses with that long of a treatment.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's got to be a better way to

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Speaker 1: do this. Micro LSD implementation and the therapeutic applications of

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Speaker 1: the mechanisms and the devices is going to be very

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Speaker 1: very important to this industry as well. But I mean

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Speaker 1: those are sort of like the compass um Compass Pathways,

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Speaker 1: which is a UK based firm listed in the US.

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Speaker 1: UM is also very big in this space as well,

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Speaker 1: and they're the ones that are sort of creating the

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Speaker 1: the synthetic psilocybin um and they have some derivatives that

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Speaker 1: they're making out of that, which has been very very

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Speaker 1: positive as well from a from a physical test perspective.

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Speaker 1: Um to your point about you know, how could we

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Speaker 1: create an et F, it was really the changes in

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Speaker 1: the capital markets in with UM, some of the state

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Speaker 1: rules changing, some of the company's being coming more active.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's still I'm gonna say you know, a

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Speaker 1: microcap small cap portfolio on an overall basis, but it's very,

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Speaker 1: very focused on the psychedelics industry itself. Uh. And it's

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Speaker 1: just you know, we have more names in the portfolio

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Speaker 1: now though than we launched when we launched the first

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Speaker 1: marijuana e t F because we only had fifteen names

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Speaker 1: in the portfolio. We launched with seventeen names in the

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Speaker 1: portfolio this week. Yeah, I actually wrote about it in

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Speaker 1: a note and two things struck me. One was just

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Speaker 1: the seriousness of all of the medical research, the grants.

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Speaker 1: You know, you go on Johns Hopkins has a whole

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Speaker 1: team dedicated to this, and it quickly realized this is

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Speaker 1: serious business, um, even though we joked earlier. And then

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Speaker 1: the other thing is how small the companies were. And

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Speaker 1: you address this a little bit, but for let's use

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Speaker 1: et F nerd out a little bit here. If you're

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Speaker 1: designing the CTF and you obviously want to capture this

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Speaker 1: as best you can, but then you see like Johnson

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Speaker 1: and Johnson in there. Obviously, I'm sure psychedelics are a

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Speaker 1: tiny fraction of their overall revenue. Do you plan to

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Speaker 1: sort of um work out those bigger names as the

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Speaker 1: smaller eyes get bigger and go turn into small and

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Speaker 1: mid caps. How does that process work when you're trying

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Speaker 1: to capture this as purely as possible. I mean, that's

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Speaker 1: that's a great question, Eric. And and you know, if

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Speaker 1: you look at the evolution and the maturity of the

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Speaker 1: cannabis market, right from the very start to the end.

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Speaker 1: I mean, our our underlying index to h MMJ has

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Speaker 1: changed seven times since we launched in seen as that

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Speaker 1: market has evolved, as market caps have significantly grown. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, we've actually had to reduce them the portfolio,

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Speaker 1: we've reduced the sort of non marijuana focus names. Um.

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Speaker 1: And that's exactly what's here. I mean with Big Farmer,

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Speaker 1: we actually there's a cap in the fund for individual

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Speaker 1: and overall exposure, but that actually will go down over

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Speaker 1: time as the rest of the industry sort of UH

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Speaker 1: grows and matures. As you said, and you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of sort of we had to build this

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Speaker 1: index so that it would actually change. And sure with

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Speaker 1: the industry itself and the UH, the underlying stock price

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Speaker 1: will increase, the average daily trading volume will increase, the

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Speaker 1: market cap threshold to get into the index, all of

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Speaker 1: those things will increase UM as the industry itself matures,

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Speaker 1: and that's that was very very important to us as

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Speaker 1: building UM in building this index for the fund. I'm

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Speaker 1: actually curious just on that idea of of you know,

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Speaker 1: this the evolution if you will, of the e t

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Speaker 1: F and the holdings and the waitings. What did you

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Speaker 1: learn from having the cannabis cannabis et F before that

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Speaker 1: helped you navigate the launch of this one. Dealing with

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Speaker 1: third party service providers which was one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: pains in my butt when launching HMMJ and like getting

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Speaker 1: your auditors, your custodian, the stock exchange, UM, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: the regulator. The stock regulators are fund regulators. What was

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Speaker 1: right to the easiest part um And here going into

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Speaker 1: the psychedelic space, there was for a lot of the

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Speaker 1: third parties. Again, there was a lot of i'll call

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Speaker 1: it reputational risk. So I had to go to a

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Speaker 1: different stock exchange that allows psychedelic companies to be listed

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Speaker 1: on it UM, and I had to go through a

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Speaker 1: significant amount of uh sort of approval processes with our

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Speaker 1: third party service providers like you know we B and

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Speaker 1: y Melon as our custodian and they are the largest

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Speaker 1: global custodian out there, and UM, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: a process to to get the approvals for that, and

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Speaker 1: UM you know that was getting all of those approvals

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Speaker 1: in advance was very very important for the timing of

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Speaker 1: we wanted to get launch, because when we tried to

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Speaker 1: launch h M M J, I mean it took us

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Speaker 1: four months to get those approvals. Here, I got all

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Speaker 1: those approvals at a time. But going back to Eric's

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Speaker 1: point about the sort of the evolution of the underlying industry,

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Speaker 1: I would say that is the single biggest lesson we

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Speaker 1: learned was how to build an index that changes over

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Speaker 1: time as an industry with years. So we're in here

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Speaker 1: early for sure, and we know that. But one of

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Speaker 1: the great things about an et F is it supports

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Speaker 1: the underlying industry itself. There's almost like a self fulfilling

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Speaker 1: UM promise here to to do well because you're supporting

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Speaker 1: this psychedelic industry itself. And we're very very happy to

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Speaker 1: be in this industry where it can be so beneficial

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Speaker 1: to the UH, to the public itself at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day. And you know, another kind of E

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Speaker 1: T F NERD question. But I think important as an investor.

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Speaker 1: One of the things about HMMJ that was fascinating is

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Speaker 1: you guys broke the record for positive tracking error or

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Speaker 1: tracking difference. In other words, if you look at the

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Speaker 1: first year and a half of this fund, it was up,

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Speaker 1: but the index is only up normally an e t F,

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Speaker 1: you're lucky if it tracks perfectly. This was giving you

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Speaker 1: twenty six percentage points have doubled it. It was almost

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Speaker 1: like you're an active manager. And obviously this is because

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Speaker 1: you were lending out shares of the stocks because people

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Speaker 1: wanted to short them, and they'll pay you a fee

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Speaker 1: for it, and you're able to put that back into

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Speaker 1: the fund. Um. It has gone down a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I guess the interest to short has subsided a bit

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Speaker 1: on cannabis. But do you see that as being something

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Speaker 1: that would also help with the new ETF in terms

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Speaker 1: of having some of these smaller, harder to get stocks

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Speaker 1: and then being able to use some of that money

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Speaker 1: to to use performance a little Absolutely that is going

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Speaker 1: to happen here as well. You know, I mean Robin

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Speaker 1: Hood really changed the lending market last year, and you know,

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Speaker 1: after three very very strong years of lending in the

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Speaker 1: cannabis space, UM lending rates. As soon as robin Hood

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Speaker 1: went on line and started lending, lending rates in the

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Speaker 1: cannabis sector went down almost from where they were or

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Speaker 1: from a hundred UM. And in this day, in this space,

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Speaker 1: it's still very very early. There's still a lot of

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Speaker 1: founder stock, there's still a lot of restricted stock, the

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Speaker 1: floats are much smaller in these companies, and there's a

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Speaker 1: significant lending opportunity. So again we're gonna do We're gonna

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Speaker 1: be dealing with UM. The average lending rate in our

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Speaker 1: portfolio is uh probably minus thirty or three thousand basis

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Speaker 1: points minus thirty we call it in the in the

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Speaker 1: lending terms UM from an annualized lending rate, so that

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Speaker 1: that could you know, we're allowed to lend up to

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Speaker 1: fifty percent of the portfolio at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: In theory, we're going to be paying you to own

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Speaker 1: psychedelic stocks between ten and fift on an annualized basis

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Speaker 1: without any stock movement at all. That is an amazing

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Speaker 1: This is Joel, I mean, we talked about you know

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Speaker 1: this whole Wall Street bets wants to like stick it

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Speaker 1: to the hedge funds. This is a this is a

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Speaker 1: very safe and legal way to do that, because hedge

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Speaker 1: funds are the one who liked to short stock. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of ETFs, not just horizons. We talk with vanguards.

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Speaker 1: Jerry O'Riley, he does it with the biggest fund in

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Speaker 1: the world. Where you get money from hedge funds to

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Speaker 1: subsidize the the e t F. In Jerry's case, it's

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Speaker 1: a few BIPs. In this case it's it can be

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Speaker 1: a lot. I find that fascinating that the small investor

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Speaker 1: is getting paid by the hedge funds through the e

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Speaker 1: t F lending process. I don't know. I just that's

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Speaker 1: a people don't talk about it much, but in this

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Speaker 1: space it can be very dramatic and really give you

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Speaker 1: extra return. Okay, So I I hate to bring just

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Speaker 1: a little bit of anxiety to the party, but it

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Speaker 1: seems fitting since you know, we're talking about psychedelics and

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Speaker 1: there's always going to be like a little bit of

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Speaker 1: weirdness um associated with trips. But Steve Um, you know,

385
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Speaker 1: there are considerable challenges that you're going to face yet,

386
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Speaker 1: and some of those are gonna be probably regulatory and

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Speaker 1: adoption and results of of the clinical trials and everything

388
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Speaker 1: else that we've talked about, UM, how are you thinking

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Speaker 1: about what that downside and what those risks might look

390
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: like for this opportunity, because it does seem like, you know,

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00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 1: it's early and things could change dramatically. How are you

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Speaker 1: assessing that? I mean, those are those are all very

393
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: good points, Joel. I mean the big thing here is this,

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Speaker 1: we believe that this is a very early stage opportunity,

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Speaker 1: much like cannabis was in seen and we've seen some

396
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,359
Speaker 1: significant highs and significant lows to that industry as it

397
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 1: has matured UM, and I don't doubt that we're going

398
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 1: to see that here. The one nice thing is all

399
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 1: of these companies have been able to raise significance amount

400
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Speaker 1: of capital of late, very very easily. They've been going

401
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:48,159
Speaker 1: out to marketplace UM and not like Amazon or not

402
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: Amazon AMC who recently did that interesting stock offer. But uh,

403
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 1: you know, this is an early stage industry. For sure,

404
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,359
Speaker 1: they need a lot of capital. UM. We're going to

405
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 1: be there to help support that through the e t F.

406
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: But the companies themselves have been able to very access

407
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 1: the Canadian capital markets and even the the US hedge

408
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: funds and family offices and things like that. I mean,

409
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 1: you've got big names like Kevin O'Leary and Bruce Litton

410
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 1: that are throwing millions of dollars in its industry supporting

411
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 1: some of the companies. They're on the boards or advisors

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Speaker 1: to these companies. Um. You know, these are guys that

413
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: are very, very active out there as personal investors. And

414
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Speaker 1: when I when I see that, um, it makes me

415
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 1: stand up and say, hey, hey, you know, there might

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Speaker 1: actually might be something do this. And to Eric's point,

417
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Speaker 1: like I had no idea the followers of the psychedelic

418
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Speaker 1: stock industry until we filed that prospectus and I got

419
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,320
Speaker 1: a thousand emails and it was unbelievable from all of

420
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: these followers. I mean, um, it's been. It's extremely active

421
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Speaker 1: in Reddit and and all of these other stock forms. Um,

422
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: and it's been fantastic to watch. And the hype that

423
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Speaker 1: we've seen, like the number of hits on our website

424
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:06,680
Speaker 1: has gone up simply because of psychedelics and uh h

425
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Speaker 1: m n J has always been the most active et

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Speaker 1: f on our website by a long shot. That in

427
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: our leveraged in an inverse leverage oyle this past year.

428
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Speaker 1: But but outside of marijuana, like, psychedelics has been been

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Speaker 1: a windfall. Just from a press and activity and hype perspective,

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Speaker 1: It's been great to watch Canada. I feel like you

431
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: guys have very liberal regulators. Um. You know, Joel, we

432
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,120
Speaker 1: did the whole documentary on the first TTF and they

433
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: designed it here in the US, but Canada was able

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00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 1: to sort of, I don't know, take the idea so

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00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,199
Speaker 1: to speak, and get it listed there earlier. And if

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00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,479
Speaker 1: you think about it, like the Spack episode that we

437
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,199
Speaker 1: did the stack Guy was earlier. Julian, Yeah, so I

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00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: do feel like in many ways, Um, you know, we're

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00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 1: just following your lead. Uh, Steve, what is it about

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00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: Canada and your capital markets that allows you to be

441
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: so adventurous and innovative. I have to say, our regulators

442
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: you're just smarter than the SEC. You know. It's it's

443
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 1: probably just as simple as that. I mean, we we

444
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,159
Speaker 1: brought active ets to the marketplace over ten non transparent

445
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: active ets over ten years ago. You know, it's just

446
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 1: it's just we we can evolve the underlyings of the

447
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: et F industry a lot faster. Unfortunately, our markets are

448
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:32,119
Speaker 1: you know, significantly smaller from an investment capital perspective overall. Um,

449
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 1: But you know, I mean, I take a little bit

450
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 1: of offense to Eric's point that we copied the U

451
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: S filing on marijuana, because you know, they filed their

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00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 1: perspectives on Thursday and my perspectives got received by the

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00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: regulators on the Friday, and then I was able to

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00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 1: launch within two months, and they took eight months to

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00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: launch from there. But you know, time out, guys. Let

456
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:57,359
Speaker 1: me clarify something here. I was talking about the originally

457
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: t F s p y. Okay, so are not you no, no, no,

458
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: I'm not. Yeah. That's a case where I even got

459
00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: what's his name, Peter Haynes, one of the founding fathers

460
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 1: up there, and he said, yeah, okay, the idea was

461
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: hatched in the US, but we launched it here sooner,

462
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: you know, what can I tell you? So he admitted it,

463
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: even though every time you go to a Toronto E

464
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 1: t F conference they do this touchdown dance about having

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00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: the first et F and I'm like, well, Eric, come on,

466
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 1: it was Toronto, but the idea was here and we

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00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: just have an sec It took four years. Steve, I

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00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: gotta ask you the closing question that we we love

469
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: to ask many people on trillions, which is what is

470
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: your favorite E t F ticker that is not your own?

471
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 1: I like MJ in the U S. It's very very simple,

472
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: it's very very straightforward. They were a nice follower to

473
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 1: our E t F. Wait wait, wait, hold on, hold on.

474
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: How could you not pick toke if you're going to

475
00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:00,360
Speaker 1: be in that category here? I mean, that's a plus.

476
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: It's a verb verb tickers are the best toke. I

477
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: don't know. I think that one's Mount Rushmore, but maybe

478
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: maybe I'm I'm just biased. Well, there will there will

479
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 1: soon be stocks that have the ticker like trum or

480
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: you know, something along those lines. I mean, we went psych,

481
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: but there was already a stock that was p s

482
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: y c um, so we went p s y K

483
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: with with our new we we thought. So there was

484
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: one that just launched here called Dude. I thought that

485
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 1: might have been a decent one. And also Ben Johnson

486
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: at morning Star head t RPN tripping. But then again,

487
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,440
Speaker 1: I guess that deviates that. This is not recreational. This

488
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,240
Speaker 1: is serious depression curing. Not a party I went to

489
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: in the nineties. I don't know what else they were

490
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: serving out. Those parties you went to in the nineties

491
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: are but so anything goes pre cell phone, San Francisco,

492
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 1: I think too right areas economy. It was a beautiful

493
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:09,719
Speaker 1: no cameras, Yeah, all right, Steve Hawkins, thanks so much

494
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: for joining us on Trillions, Joel, Eric, thank you so

495
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: much for having me today. I had a great time

496
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: and hope we have a lot of fun with Magic

497
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: my shins going forward. Thanks for listening to Trillions until

498
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:28,679
Speaker 1: next time. You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal,

499
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com, Apple Podcast, Spotify, and wherever else you

500
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: like to listen. We'd love to hear from you. We're

501
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 1: on Twitter, I'm at Joel Webber Show, He's at Eric

502
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: fall Tunas, and you can find more about Steve Hawkins

503
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: and Horizons at Horizons et f s dot com. This

504
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Francesca Levy

505
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: is the head of Bloomberg Podcast by