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Speaker 1: Alsome Media, PA.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast filmed in

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Speaker 2: front of a live studio audience. If the words live

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Speaker 2: studio audience refer to the other people in my airbnb

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Speaker 2: who can probably hear me through the door. We are

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Speaker 2: giving our part two on Doctor Sleep Harry Bailey, the

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Speaker 2: Australian doctor who slept people to death kind of and

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Speaker 2: our guest in this episode, as in last episode, is

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Speaker 2: Gabe done. Gabe, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I'm a huge fan. In case

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Speaker 3: people didn't hear the first one, which would be a

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Speaker 3: weird thing for them to do. Yeah, I'm a huge fan.

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Speaker 3: I love this show. I'm so excited to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Hey, we got a little wee. We like to

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Speaker 2: do a little warm up before every episode. You know,

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Speaker 2: where were just like ask a little questions to the

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Speaker 2: audience can get to know the guests better. Where were

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Speaker 2: you on the night of May seven teenth, two thousand

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Speaker 2: and seven.

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Speaker 3: I was a freshman in college, so probably in Boston,

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Speaker 3: probably with a boyfriend who is cheating on me, but

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Speaker 3: I don't know if he specifically cheated on me on

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Speaker 3: that day.

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Speaker 2: We just take this down. Gabe denies being present during murder. Okay,

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Speaker 2: we'll just move on then, great, So are you hard

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Speaker 2: to Boston the murder? A lot of murders do again,

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Speaker 2: Boston to Chee. So it's probably time to talk about

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Speaker 2: what doctor Bailey was like to work with and to

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Speaker 2: go to as a patient or a parent as a patient. Right,

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Speaker 2: what's this guy like as a colleague, as a boss,

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Speaker 2: and as your doctor? He was obviously a charming man,

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Speaker 2: very care arristhmatic. And this is obvious because he was

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Speaker 2: able to convince large numbers of his colleagues and many

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Speaker 2: patients that he's totally legitimate, right, not only legitimate, but

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Speaker 2: a really good physician. And you know, he's got a

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Speaker 2: talent for displaying himself and portraying himself in a way

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Speaker 2: that makes people think he is trustworthy. Right.

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Speaker 3: I don't trust anyone who seems trustworthy.

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Speaker 2: That's a good right, Right, Like when I need someone

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Speaker 2: to like watch my car or my cat for a weekend,

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Speaker 2: Like I make my way through to the most windowless

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Speaker 2: strip club in Portland and I find a guy sitting

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Speaker 2: in the back who's obviously carrying an illegal, concealed weapon,

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Speaker 2: and I give him the keys to my house, you know,

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Speaker 2: because he looks so shady, he's obviously a good guy.

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Speaker 2: That's what the Home Alone movies taught us.

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Speaker 3: That is what it taught us.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: I just mean, if you like, if you're like a celebrity,

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Speaker 3: if you're like someone who's like Tom Hanks, what's Tom

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Speaker 3: Hanks up to? I don't trust that guy.

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Speaker 2: Neither of the QAnon people. Tom Hanks is the deep State.

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Speaker 3: Very true, very true.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, he's a charming guy. Multiple people who knew

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Speaker 2: him all noted that Harry Bailey was always well dressed,

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Speaker 2: and as his career went on, he was able to

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Speaker 2: afford fine tailored suits. He was, as the Australian Encyclopedia

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Speaker 2: Biography notes, both a quote cherub faced charmer and prone

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Speaker 2: to quote occasional drunken rages. There's not enough to tail

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Speaker 2: about those occasional drunken rages. Unfortunately, we do not have

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Speaker 2: nearly the contacts I'd like to have on this guy's drunolves.

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Speaker 3: There are two wolves that live inside you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I kind of reading between the lines, I

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Speaker 2: think both his wife and some of his nurses put

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Speaker 2: up with his occasional drunken rages. Right that he's sometimes

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Speaker 2: the real problem.

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Speaker 3: You're a drunk as a doctor well dressed.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I can't say that, like there's just very little

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Speaker 2: detail on this, but kind of from other things people

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Speaker 2: that I kind of think maybe he at least maybe

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Speaker 2: it was, because it may have just been like work

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Speaker 2: parties and stuff that sometimes he got too drunk at right.

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Speaker 3: Harry Mary kill cherubik well dressed drunken rage.

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Speaker 2: Let's see, uh fuck well dressed Mary, drunken rage, Marry

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Speaker 2: drunken rage and kill the cherub.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, wow, didn't see that coming.

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Speaker 1: I did, I fear I did. So.

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Speaker 2: He also has a tendency to lie. This is noted

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Speaker 2: by his parents and some peers pretty early on, like

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Speaker 2: a lot and weirdly in situations where it's not necessary,

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Speaker 2: and often to exaggerate stuff that he definitely did, like

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Speaker 2: he'd do something positive or that was seen as positive

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Speaker 2: and then he would lie about it to make it

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Speaker 2: seem even like a bigger deal. So people notice this

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Speaker 2: about him too as a salesman, you know, right right,

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Speaker 2: And some of this is like his colleagues and some

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Speaker 2: of the people who work with him will note that, like, oh,

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Speaker 2: he'll light a patience about some of his successes and

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Speaker 2: things like That's he's not mostly lying, he's alongside of

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Speaker 2: his colleagues, but he's lying a lot to convince people

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Speaker 2: to do his treatment, right, Like he's lying about how

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Speaker 2: well this stuff works to get them in the bed

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Speaker 2: right now, speaking of getting them in bed, Doctor Harry

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Speaker 2: Bailey was also a man you would describe as irresponsibly

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Speaker 2: horny and in some cases perhaps illegally horny. The authors

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Speaker 2: of the Chelmsford Blog note that he had quote a

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Speaker 2: reputation for making sexually inappropriate comments to or regarding female patients.

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Speaker 2: So that's not.

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Speaker 3: That's where that sleep stuff gets real.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well just wait, Gabe. And again this is if

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Speaker 2: you're wondering, like, well, why didn't this cost a problem

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Speaker 2: before it's the sixties? He is probably I would I

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Speaker 2: would be shocked if much less than half of practicing

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Speaker 2: male doctors in this period had a reputation for making

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Speaker 2: sexually inappropriate comments to patients. Maybe maybe it wasn't that high,

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Speaker 2: but I bet it was.

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Speaker 3: My grandfather was such a square. He was a doctor

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Speaker 3: around that time, and he my grandmother's and like my dad,

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Speaker 3: when all these people in our family said that he

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Speaker 3: was like not really liked because if another doctor married

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Speaker 3: doctor was like having an affair with like a nurse

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Speaker 3: or something, he would just he would be like he

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Speaker 3: would ice him. He'd be like I hate that guy, like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and all the other doctors.

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Speaker 3: Would be like boo, like this is what we do.

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Speaker 3: We're fun. And he was like the guy being like, hey,

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Speaker 3: we shouldn't do this.

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Speaker 2: Guys, can you believe he's got a problem with doctor

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Speaker 2: Fox every nurse? My god, can you believe that's his Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I gotta think the other like you didn't have a

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Speaker 3: lot of friends because he would be like, I can't

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Speaker 3: hang out with that guy.

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Speaker 2: He's in my can't hang out with you? You're a

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Speaker 2: sex pest. Yeah, that does every now, like like you

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Speaker 2: got some of this during like me too, where there

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Speaker 2: would be you would find out because usually you found out,

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Speaker 2: oh the celebrity that I like a kind of like

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Speaker 2: kept his mouth shut and knowew about Weinstein. But every

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Speaker 2: now and then you'd find out about one who was

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Speaker 2: like from the jump like no, fu fuck this guy.

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Speaker 2: I won't work with him. And it was all it

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Speaker 2: was usual someone who you're like, oh, I wonder why

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Speaker 2: their career hadn't taken off more. Oh because they had

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Speaker 2: ah okay, yeah, because they were mean to the rapist.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my grandpa wasn't climbing the ranks at the hospital.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, right, Yeah? Why do you want to stop

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Speaker 2: everybody having fun? You know? And that's the kind of doctor.

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Speaker 2: That's how Bailey is. And again that's also how he's seen.

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Speaker 2: This is not immediately seen as a problem by a

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Speaker 2: lot of people in his profession, because the problem is

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Speaker 2: why it's bread in the profession. Now, that's that. An

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Speaker 2: interesting thing about him is it's noted in several of

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Speaker 2: my sources that both his wife and a lot of

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Speaker 2: his mistresses, many of the women he had affairs with,

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Speaker 2: showed incredible loyalty to him over the years. Something about

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Speaker 2: this guy. It's not just like the women he's romantic

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Speaker 2: with a lot of his staff too. Something about this

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Speaker 2: guy he really does inspire a lot of loyalty in

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Speaker 2: the people close to So.

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Speaker 1: It's not just the woman he's sleeping with. It's beyond that.

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Speaker 1: So he's not digmatizing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not just the dick stuff, right, He's more

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Speaker 2: has to be happening. He has to be giving these

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Speaker 2: people something out of a relationship that they value, even

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Speaker 2: though his wife like leaves him eventually for cheating on him.

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Speaker 3: You know, sure, sure, it's like Keith Ranieri manson, it's

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Speaker 3: like that kind of shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or just I've known men and women who treated

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Speaker 2: constantly on partners that they were with and were also

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Speaker 2: really pleasant and nice people outside of that, who were

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Speaker 2: very well liked and who even their partners or former

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Speaker 2: partners who got pissed at them eventually would be friends

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Speaker 2: with them again because they're just really charming people who

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Speaker 2: can't fucking control themselves around consensual sex. And maybe that's

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Speaker 2: kind of what's going on with this guy, is that

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Speaker 2: he's just likable in person for a long time. I

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Speaker 2: kind of think that is the case to a lot

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Speaker 2: of people. I mean, some people do note wow, they's

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Speaker 2: drunken rages aren't great, but a lot of people are

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Speaker 2: able to put up with them, and it's because he's

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Speaker 2: giving them something like providing them something socially that they value. So,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it's an interesting guy, right, He's got

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Speaker 2: something going on that makes this work for him.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's narcissism, but I don't know. I'm

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Speaker 3: not a doctor. I'm not a doctor. Putting people to

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Speaker 3: sleep in the sixties. What do I know.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that plays a role. I don't know. But

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Speaker 2: he's also just very charismatic. He's got the riz. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But one of his colleagues who's later implicated in some

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Speaker 2: of his criminal behavior, doctor John Heron, described Bailey as

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Speaker 2: quote a man of strong character and dogmatic opinion, but

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Speaker 2: a man who understood scientific theory and the scientific method.

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Speaker 2: This is a weird statement a little bit, because what

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Speaker 2: he's saying here is that, like, doctor Bailey has a

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Speaker 2: strong personality and when he comes to an opinion about something,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of unbreakable. If he's convinced of something, he

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Speaker 2: doesn't get unconvinced of it. But he's also a really

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Speaker 2: good scientist who understands the scientific method, And like, you

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Speaker 2: kind of can't be both of those things. You can't

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Speaker 2: be a kind of guy who like just makes up

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Speaker 2: his mind no matter what countervailing have it shows up,

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Speaker 2: and also be a really strong practitioner of the scientific method,

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Speaker 2: because kind of the whole point of the scientific method

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Speaker 2: is like you got to kill your darlings, you know, Like.

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Speaker 3: I learned that in the fifth grade.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this really seems like it should work, but it doesn't,

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Speaker 2: so we're gonna stop doing it. Is what red scientists

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Speaker 2: and doctors did with deep sleep therapy. Doctor Bailey can't

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Speaker 2: do that. So I should also note that the fact

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Speaker 2: that he cannot change course once he starts going down

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Speaker 2: a path. This is not just relevant with his embrace

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Speaker 2: of deep sleep therapy, because doctor Bailey also becomes a

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Speaker 2: leading proponent of psychosurgery, which is, you know, brain surgery

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Speaker 2: is a treatment for various problems. Right, he is not

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Speaker 2: giving lobotomies, thankfully, I'll say that what is he doing?

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Speaker 2: What is he doing? So modern day psychosurgery is you

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Speaker 2: are very generally, very like targeted and kind of minimal

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Speaker 2: physical impact operations directly on the brain to deal with

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Speaker 2: like treatment resistant disorders. Right Like today, a lot of

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Speaker 2: the focus is we want to have as little a

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Speaker 2: physical impact as possible, right, We want to be doing

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Speaker 2: really targeted work because it's very dangerous to fuck around

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Speaker 2: with this stuff. Psychosurgery is a little bit more of

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Speaker 2: the Wild West in doctor Bailey's time and day, right,

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Speaker 2: And he's also convinced that homosexuality is an illness and

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Speaker 2: an illness that can be cured by psychosurgery, So he

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Speaker 2: does prescribe brain surgery to a lot of gay people.

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Speaker 3: The one thing he was right about everybody knows.

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Speaker 2: Everybody knows that. Yeah. Now, as I stated, his patients

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Speaker 2: are at first in the early days, is very loyal

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Speaker 2: to him in a way that bordered for some people

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Speaker 2: kind of on being seemed like drug dependency, which it

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Speaker 2: may have been, because some people do really regularly come

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Speaker 2: in for like re up bouts of sleep therapy, and

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Speaker 2: part of me is like they just addicted, know, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: But part of the loyalty, at least the short term

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Speaker 2: loyalty that a lot of his patients have, is that

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Speaker 2: he's selling them an answer to their worst and most

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Speaker 2: intractable problems. Right, you got a child, or you've got

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Speaker 2: a close relative who's suffering from constant psychotic breaks. Right,

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Speaker 2: it's a huge problem. It can fuck up an entire phase,

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Speaker 2: a really big issue. And someone says, two weeks of

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Speaker 2: sleep and they'll be back to normal, They'll be back

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Speaker 2: to the you know, the the version of themselves. You remember,

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Speaker 2: if a doctor sits down and looks you in the

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Speaker 2: eye and promises you that, and his walls filled with

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Speaker 2: awards you're probably gonna say, okay, do it right, you know,

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Speaker 2: and like yeah, and if you're if it's you going

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Speaker 2: in and your anxiety is so bad that you can't

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Speaker 2: even sleep anymore and it's ruined your fucking life, doctor

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Speaker 2: Bailey will put it like hold you and tell you

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Speaker 2: it's going to be okay. And then the second he can,

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Speaker 2: he will drug you into unconsciousness and start performing surgery

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Speaker 2: and shit on you. So he does can sleep.

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Speaker 1: So he doesn't think you can sleep the gay away,

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Speaker 1: but he thinks you can know he can chop it

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Speaker 1: out of you because uh.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know that he did this, but it

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Speaker 2: kind of sounds like he thinks if maybe he could

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Speaker 2: knock you out and then surgery the gay away. But

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Speaker 2: I can't find it. I don't know that he has.

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Speaker 3: They tried to do that to me, but I just

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Speaker 3: ended up trans so we had describe it. It's very

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Speaker 3: delicate procedur and yeah, he exited a little slip. So.

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Speaker 2: The Chelmsford Blog notes that as far as doctor Bailey

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Speaker 2: was concerned, he had many loyal, independent patients, yet would

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Speaker 2: often make callous comments about them in private circles. After

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Speaker 2: his death, Yeah, he's he's promising these people everything, like

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Speaker 2: they will talk about how compassionate he seemed, and then

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Speaker 2: he'll be like, can you believe these fucking losers? You know,

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Speaker 2: there's a Royal Commission report after his death that aggregates

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Speaker 2: accounts from a bunch of his coworkers, employees, and patients,

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Speaker 2: and this report concludes that he was quote two faced, devious,

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Speaker 2: dissembling and unprincipled. And I feel like, now that we've

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Speaker 2: set his personality up more, let's talk about what all

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Speaker 2: this stuff means in practice, what is he doing to

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Speaker 2: his patients. One of his early patients was a thirteen

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Speaker 2: year old girl who was admitted suffering symptoms of anorexia nervosa.

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Speaker 2: She was placed into a drug induced coma and strapped

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Speaker 2: naked to a chair. Then the treatment began. Per an

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Speaker 2: article in Reuters by Australian journalist Michael Perry, just after midnight,

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Speaker 2: a doctor entered the ward. Moments later, her body, rudely

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Speaker 2: awakened from a drug induced coma, thrust violently upwards as

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Speaker 2: a ball of electricity surged through it. It happened ten

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Speaker 2: times and two weeks without anesthetic, without her consent, and

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Speaker 2: without the knowledge of her parents. Eventually, she was discharged

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Speaker 2: with brain damage, but she is one of the lucky

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Speaker 2: ones because she survived. Cool.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what year? Thirteen year old girl, no anesthetic, no consent? Huh?

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Speaker 3: What years this is?

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Speaker 2: I think sixty three or sixty four. He starts practicing

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Speaker 2: deep sleep theory at Chelmsford in sixty three. I think

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Speaker 2: this is a fairly early patient.

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Speaker 3: Man.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that, how do we know?

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Speaker 3: How do we know that that's what happened? Who told?

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Speaker 2: Because they take, they take, they document it like they're

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Speaker 2: taking they're keeping notes and stuff like these are patients

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Speaker 2: they're being treated. You know, the files are not right? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: likeways like they're not always providing the files to the

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Speaker 2: regulators they're supposed to and stuff. But they are taking

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Speaker 2: note about what they're doing. It's not just random okay. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Bailey started practicing deep sleep therapies, I said, in sixty three,

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Speaker 2: and as you're all now well aware, he often paired

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Speaker 2: it with electroshock therapy. But he also experimented with other

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Speaker 2: kinds of serious medical procedures. Like I said, he's into psychosurgery,

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Speaker 2: and he doesn't always get consent from his patients before

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Speaker 2: he performs surgery on them. In nineteen sixty six, Glenn Whittie,

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Speaker 2: age twenty eight, went to Chelmsford for DST. She woke

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Speaker 2: up after several days under and went on with her life.

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Speaker 2: She seems to have felt that it I baby helped.

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Speaker 2: I don't actually have an account from her saying how

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Speaker 2: she felt about it, but she goes on with her life.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't seem to have a complaint initially. Eighteen years later,

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Speaker 2: one day a lump appears on the size of her

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Speaker 2: head and it grows to the size of an egg,

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Speaker 2: So she's like, what the fuck is happening here? And

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Speaker 2: after a couple of days the lump splits open and

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Speaker 2: a metal plate falls out.

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Speaker 3: Shut the fuck up. Yeah cool, that is some body

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Speaker 3: horror fucking Cronenberg ass shit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah yeah, Zuo iron man bullshit. The next year

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Speaker 2: another metal plate emerged, right, and she has no explanation

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Speaker 2: for what the fuck has happened, other than that these

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Speaker 2: must have been surgically inserted to her at Chelmsford. Elaine Gainsborough,

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Speaker 2: who visited Chelmsford the same year as Glenn Whittie, also

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Speaker 2: told Reuters that she had four metal plates inserted into

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Speaker 2: her skull. She was not informed that this had been done,

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Speaker 2: and only found out that this has been done nine

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Speaker 2: years later because a pin holding one of the plates

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Speaker 2: to the bone broke. She started operiencing difficulty speaking after

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Speaker 2: this and blames whatever the fuck doctor Bailey did to

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Speaker 2: her for that. As Witty told Reuters, we called doctor

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Speaker 2: Bailey the science professor because he was experimenting on all us.

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Speaker 2: We are all damaged, brain damaged. And she blames that

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Speaker 2: on his little horror hospital.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know, Frankenstein ass fucking yeah. Okay, wait, okay,

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Speaker 3: you have metal in your head, you don't know you're

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Speaker 3: hit by liking or you don't know you go through

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Speaker 3: a metal detector. You've got to know there's metal in you.

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Speaker 2: Or a fucking mriah can kill you. You can't put metal

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Speaker 2: in people and not tell them.

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Speaker 3: You sure can't.

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Speaker 2: It's it's wild, Like, I don't know why he did this.

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Speaker 2: These are both I think from the same year, like

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Speaker 2: sixty four was it.

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Speaker 3: I would like to note that all of these are men,

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Speaker 3: which I understand that doctors largely were, and the three

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Speaker 3: test subjects you've thus spoken about are young women.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: A lot of his patients are women. Yeah, oh shocking

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Speaker 2: lot women, I guess. So I don't know why he

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Speaker 2: did this, but it does kind of. He may have

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Speaker 2: stopped after sixty three. This may have been an experiment

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Speaker 2: where he was like, I wonder if this will help

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Speaker 2: for some reason this case, and it didn't, and so

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Speaker 2: he stops doing it, at least I don't. He's are

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Speaker 2: the only accounts I found of people claiming that this

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Speaker 2: happened to them, and they're both from sixty three. So

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Speaker 2: maybe he stops doing this, but he's doing other stuff

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Speaker 2: right the show. Yeah, he's perfectly willing to experiment in

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Speaker 2: very invasive ways on people's bodies without their consent.

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Speaker 3: No, okay.

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Speaker 2: Now, in the early years when something like it wasn't

356
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Speaker 2: always a plate, but patients would find out he'd done

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Speaker 2: something to them that they had not been told about,

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Speaker 2: that they hadn't consented to, and they would complain, which

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Speaker 2: is a normal thing to do, right, and in this

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Speaker 2: whenever they did, they were told, oh, no, you don't remember, well,

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Speaker 2: here's the paper you sign. You know, did we woke

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Speaker 2: you up to feed you and asked if we could

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Speaker 2: do this and you said yes when you signed the paper.

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Speaker 2: But of course you're barred the fuck out idea which

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Speaker 2: you've done. So this is something that happened periodically throughout

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Speaker 2: the days and weeks that people were kept unconscious. They

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Speaker 2: generally did not remembered their conscious moments because again their

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Speaker 2: brains were drenched and barbituates. Today, no reputable doctor or

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Speaker 2: facility would consider this proper consent. You absolutely cannot consent

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Speaker 2: to surgery when you are woken up and still want

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Speaker 2: enough barbituates to drop a fucking mule, right, That is

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Speaker 2: not consent. Even if you say yes and sign a

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Speaker 2: piece of paper and your.

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Speaker 3: Signatures, your signature is just like looping down the whole paper,

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Speaker 3: just going down the whole paper line.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. Now this is also and I should note

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Speaker 2: at the time this should have been a problem, but

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Speaker 2: it wasn't. This is not even at the time, considered

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Speaker 2: to be great medical ethics. But it's also not considered

380
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Speaker 2: bad enough that anyone does anything right like nothing gets

381
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Speaker 2: preferred like nothing, nothing makes it to a point where

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Speaker 2: he has to except consequences. So people aren't taking this seriously,

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Speaker 2: and he is getting reported to regulators into the government.

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Speaker 2: So there are choices being made by professionals in the

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Speaker 2: Australia who are supposed to be regulating the medical industry

386
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Speaker 2: that when patients complain about stuff like this, his answer

387
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Speaker 2: is sufficient. Now they signed a paper. They're just crazy,

388
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Speaker 2: crazy people. Never remember that. Here's the signature.

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Speaker 1: You know.

390
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for coming in, doctor Bailey. Sorry, we knew it

391
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Speaker 2: was bullshit. I mean he's crazy Broad's am I right?

392
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Speaker 2: You know it's shit like that is happening all the time.

393
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Speaker 2: That's how he's getting away with it, right.

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Speaker 3: I expect they know that it's not good, but they

395
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Speaker 3: don't want to deal with that what that would cause

396
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Speaker 3: to the medical community.

397
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Speaker 2: And we'll talk more about why he's allowed to get

398
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Speaker 2: away with this. But you know what you can get

399
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 2: away with listeners. Wow, a deal, A hell of a deal.

400
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Speaker 2: Or ads for the Washington State Highway Patrol. It's a crapshoot.

401
00:20:52,520 --> 00:21:02,480
Speaker 2: I don't know. Oh God, and we're back. Gabe and

402
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 2: I have both joined the Washington State Highway Patrol.

403
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Speaker 1: I did.

404
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 2: It was a really convincing ad, really convincing ad.

405
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Speaker 3: I forced it.

406
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,560
Speaker 2: You're both free now. The recruiter promised me I could

407
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Speaker 2: serve in Hawaii. I don't know why the Washington State

408
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,040
Speaker 2: Higway patrols there. But I know so many guys who

409
00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:26,560
Speaker 2: went to fucking irack in Afghanistan because when they were seventeen,

410
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Speaker 2: some guy was like, yeah, you'll get to go to Hawaii.

411
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Speaker 3: Oh my god, of course you.

412
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Speaker 2: Won't be fighting son.

413
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Speaker 3: That's what they're telling border patrol right now.

414
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Speaker 2: Right. So, as I've said, there is a strain running

415
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Speaker 2: across the psychiatric profession. And I'm not saying those are

416
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Speaker 2: the only doctors who have this problem, but it's we're

417
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,080
Speaker 2: talking about that today. And there's a strain of if

418
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Speaker 2: only we could just do whatever we know is best

419
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Speaker 2: to these irksome patients who always got to ask questions

420
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Speaker 2: and say no to stuff. Right, that's a big thing

421
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: for a lot of psychs. And so the first plants

422
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 2: against doctor Bailey go nowhere. And this remains true even

423
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Speaker 2: when he gets a child killed. Obviously, people would die

424
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Speaker 2: sometimes in deep sleep therapy. Remember the first study on

425
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 2: this is a twelve percent fatality rate. Right, and deaths

426
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,960
Speaker 2: had happened to doctor Bailey the start of his clinic, right,

427
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,159
Speaker 2: and doctor Sargent had gotten people killed over in the UK.

428
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Speaker 2: Chelmsford's first death of a DST patient occurred in nineteen

429
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Speaker 2: sixty three, the first year that it was operating and

430
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Speaker 2: doing this therapy, that death was marked down as death

431
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,719
Speaker 2: by misadventure, which is a weird way to say you

432
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Speaker 2: gave someone over a fatal overdose in a hospital, but

433
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 2: there was no investigation.

434
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 3: I've heard death by misadventure used before.

435
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know that i'd call it that.

436
00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,320
Speaker 3: A great name for a book, though.

437
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh absolutely. So it turns out that, you know,

438
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,760
Speaker 2: death is kind of an unavoidable when you're pounding people's

439
00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: nervous systems with enough downers to fuck up an elephant.

440
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 2: By nineteen sixty nine, per a very good article in

441
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 2: The Sydney Morning Harold Quote, Bailey and Herron had been

442
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 2: sending patients to Chelmstread for a good rest for six years.

443
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 2: Ten had died as their bodies collapsed under the weight

444
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 2: of massive drug dosages and ect others would suffer terrifying

445
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 2: hallucinations and wake up naked in their own urinin feces

446
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 2: in a mixed sex ward. So not a great place, and.

447
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 3: The asascinations like don't really go like I'm sure they're

448
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 3: kind of like permanent. There's things that are permanent, even

449
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 3: though you're alive.

450
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think. I don't know that they lose,

451
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: but they are permanent call. I mean, for one thing,

452
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: if you're not moving physically in a coma for like

453
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 2: two or three weeks, that causes long term health issues.

454
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: You have to go to rehab to like move right again.

455
00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: It's bad to not move for several weeks at a time.

456
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 2: So by this point in time, by nineteen sixty nine,

457
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: there's quite a bit of evidence that not only is

458
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 2: this therapy bad, but that the Chelmsford hospital itself does

459
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: not have great standards of care. In nineteen sixty five,

460
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 2: nursing staff had even petitioned the hospital administration, which included

461
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: doctor Bailey, about safety concerns. No action was taken. In

462
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven, there was an anonymous complaint about Chelmsford

463
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 2: to the Health Department. No action was taken. Wo psychiatric

464
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 2: hospitals were not generally nice places, and most people preferred

465
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: not to think about them, right, including most people in government.

466
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: You want to look into this, I don't want to

467
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 2: fucking look into these crazy people. They're probably just saying

468
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 2: crazy shit. Let the doctor do his thing. He's won awards,

469
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 2: that's what's happening except for in an Australian accent, right,

470
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: you know, crooky boy, worry about the day we want

471
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:41,360
Speaker 2: to shrimp on the barbie.

472
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, you can't really even make that charming, No, even

473
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 3: in an Australian accent.

474
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: No.

475
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 3: So.

476
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: Elaine McKay was the mother of a fourteen year old

477
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 2: boy named Craig who suffered from cerebral retinal degeneration. This

478
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: meant that he had started going blind at age seven,

479
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,080
Speaker 2: which he found traumatic and pain for extremely obvious reasons.

480
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 2: He gets so depressed that Craig becomes and his mother's

481
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 2: words hard to handle because he's really pissed off and sad.

482
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,480
Speaker 2: She sits down in doctor Bailey's nice office outside the

483
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 2: hospital to see if he can help her boy. Quote,

484
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: he was a charmer, he promised you the world and

485
00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,479
Speaker 2: everyone said he was the best. So once she walks

486
00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,160
Speaker 2: doctor Bailey through what's happening, he prescribes DST for her

487
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: son and she trusts him. He told her you're losing

488
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 2: him at the moment, but all have your boy back.

489
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: And what loving parent hearing those words from an award

490
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 2: winding medical expert wouldn't say yes, right, yeah, you know

491
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 2: it's not her fault. Like she did. She found a

492
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 2: doctor who all of the professionals said was a good doctor.

493
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 2: She did her job. She's trying to get her boy

494
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: cared for.

495
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 3: It's so fucked up parents have some kids are so vulnerable.

496
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's Yeah. The part of the sad

497
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 2: thing is that like a lot of times, like today,

498
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 2: you hear a lot of parents getting their kids killed

499
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 2: with quack therapies. But it's obviously bad, like you should

500
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: have known not to do that to your kid. This

501
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: one there, she did. They did nothing wrong, per The

502
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: Sydney Morning. Harold Craig was admitted to Chelmsford in April

503
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine. He stayed for four months, during which

504
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 2: time his mother held a unique position as a witness

505
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 2: in the sedation ward. None of the relatives of the

506
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 2: other patients in the sleepward were allowed to visit. She recalls,

507
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 2: after they'd been down for two weeks, the nurses and

508
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: hairdressers would do them up and make them look normal

509
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 2: when the relatives could come in. I saw it all

510
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 2: because I was the only one allowed to stay. I

511
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 2: said that if they didn't let me stay, I'd take

512
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: Craig out myself. What is happening here is they've found

513
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 2: a whale, right, Craig's mom is a whale. The family

514
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 2: clearly has money, or they think the family has money.

515
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: So they're like, if we keep him in the hospital

516
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 2: for four straight months, that's four months where every day

517
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 2: he's paying to be here, plus whatever fucking drugs we

518
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 2: give him and whatever fucking treatments we cook up. Right, great,

519
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: keep him in a as long as we can. Why

520
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 2: ever let him go?

521
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 3: The hairdresser part really threw me.

522
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 2: Great stuff. So, after her son has been at the

523
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 2: hospital for months, she asks if she can take him home,

524
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 2: but the nurses said, quote just a little longer, just

525
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: a few days longer. She calls doctor Bailey repeatedly to

526
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 2: try to be like, hey, when is this done? I

527
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,479
Speaker 2: really want to take him out. Are you sure he

528
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 2: still needs to be doing this? I don't see what

529
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: more being asleep can really help. And she doesn't know

530
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: that this is happening, but doctor Bailey is giving her

531
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: son electroconvulsive therapy. He is electrocuting Craig at night once

532
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: she leaves, and she doesn't realize this, but from that

533
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 2: article quote during the day the nursing staff. She says,

534
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: we're very kind of considerate, and Craig was happy, but

535
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 2: he said a bad man comes at night. At the time,

536
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: I didn't know what he meant. Later I realized it

537
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: was Bailey. That's I'm talking about Bailey coming to electrocute

538
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: him at night.

539
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: Wow.

540
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 2: So again, this kid's not unconscious the whole time. He's

541
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: being put unconscious for periods of time, but he's out

542
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: the whole while, and he's aware of some of the times.

543
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: He's being fucking shocked because I just don't think doctor

544
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 2: Bailey particularly cared. Now we don't know exactly what was

545
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 2: done to this kid because all of his medical records

546
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 2: at the hospital were mysteriously lost later, so I can't

547
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: tell really Yeah crazy.

548
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, there was a fire in that one cabinet.

549
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 2: There was a freak fire that burnt one kid's file.

550
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 2: We don't know what Bailey gave him or what extracurricular

551
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 2: surgeries or drugs he may have experimented with using. But

552
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 2: on August nineteenth, nineteen sixty nine, Elene arrived at Chelmsford

553
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 2: and saw her son sitting in front of a fan.

554
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 2: He was unconscious and there's like a fan blowing on him.

555
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: He's like visibly feverish and riddled with bed sores.

556
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

557
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: So she waits with her son that day and then

558
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 2: she heads home. Later that night, she gets a call

559
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 2: from Chelmsford and they tell her and her husband that

560
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 2: their son is dying. So she calls the hospital frantic,

561
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 2: and the hospital the person who picks her up is

562
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: like annoyed that she's freaking out, is like, calm down,

563
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: You've got yourself into a bit of a mess. She

564
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 2: was talked down to quote like I was an idiot.

565
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: I kept calling that night. I drove them nuts, ringing

566
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 2: them every half hour. We got a taxi over to

567
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: the hospital about seven o'clock in the morning. We knocked

568
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: on the door. The matron said, we just lost him,

569
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: my dear, and that was it. I was a mess,

570
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: as you can imagine. They took me off and started

571
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 2: popping pills into me to calm me down. We were

572
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: a couple of dills. We believed everything they told us.

573
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 3: Oh no, oh no, they're gonna get the mom into now.

574
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: I think they're just like giving her a little like

575
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: they don't keep her in, but like they do drug

576
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: her immediately. And first off, ma'am, you and your husband

577
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 2: aren't dills for trusting a hospital, no I know. And second,

578
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 2: this is where the real crime crime shit starts going

579
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,880
Speaker 2: down because they killed this kid, they kept him in

580
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: way longer than they needed to. They gave him. They

581
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: gave a fourteen year old four months of regular massive

582
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: doses of benzos and fucking hydrate like, so that's insane.

583
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 3: So this is where it becomes like, it's not just Bailey.

584
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 3: The nurses have this satitude that everyone at the hospital has,

585
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 3: this attitude.

586
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 2: They have that is mixed because again, the nurses trust

587
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 2: doctor Bailey. They're not doctors. They don't always know this

588
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: because increasingly they start to, but it takes some time. Right,

589
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: I do say there are nurses who are definitely complicit

590
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: and doctors who are definitely complicit. It's hard to say

591
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: how much and who at this point in time, other

592
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: like the doctors definitely are, but like it's hard to

593
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: say which nurses had enough, like should have known something

594
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: was wrong and at what point? Right, this is probably

595
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 2: one of the points though for.

596
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 3: Me, you still don't disiss a mother who's freaking out, Oh, I.

597
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: Mean, and it's it's also just this kid's promised that

598
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,479
Speaker 2: he's going blind. You're not gonna fix No, there's no

599
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: way this is going to fix that. The therapy was

600
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:05,719
Speaker 2: because he's depressed and acting out. Four months for that. Yeah,

601
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 2: that's crazy. Yeah. On Craig's death certificate, his cause of

602
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 2: death was listed as bronco pneumonia. Since Chelmsford was a

603
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: reputable hospital and nobody likes extra work, his case was

604
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,239
Speaker 2: not referred to a coroner. I'd say, we don't know

605
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 2: what killed Craig, but after his death, doctor Bailey had

606
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 2: the hospital send Craig's parents a bill. That's one of

607
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 2: the things is he is billing people, as I noted

608
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 2: at the top, often more than their annual income. And

609
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: when he kills a patient, he still bills them. So

610
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: you're like, wife or son dies and then you get

611
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 2: a bill for more money than you're worth.

612
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 3: I mean that is insurance now.

613
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, in this in this case, doctor Bailey

614
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: sent his parents a bill for more than eleven hundred pills,

615
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: mostly sedatives. They give this kid eleven hundred bill doses

616
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: of different sedatives. God knows what the in with ivs. Right,

617
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm gonna guess that has something to

618
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 2: do with the cause of death. I think a lot

619
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 2: of people will die if you give them eleven hundred

620
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 2: doses of fucking benzos in four months at age fourteen,

621
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 2: while electrocuting them every ven.

622
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 3: I canna say they charged for the therapy too.

623
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Oh, they're charging for all of it. Baby. Now.

624
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: The stories of Chelmsford patients are uniformly bleak and horrifying.

625
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: Jim Lawler went to his general physician suffering from pain

626
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 2: behind his eyes when he was referred to Chelmsford. I

627
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 2: don't know precisely what year this happened, but he gave

628
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: an interview to a local TV station in nineteen eighty five,

629
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: which I found as a transcript on the Chelmsford Blog.

630
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: Quote Lawler, when I came home from the hospital, my

631
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: son said to his mother, Mum, what's happened with this operation?

632
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: He said, something went wrong with this Dad is not

633
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: the father that I used to know. And that's from

634
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 2: a kid who is deaf. Interviewer, is it possible to

635
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: explain how you feel? Lawler? Resentful and bitter because with

636
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,959
Speaker 2: it's been done to me shouldn't be done to a

637
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 2: dog it's really because like you to think too, this

638
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: guy's talking about like he comes home. His son is deaf,

639
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: so he's not hearing his father's voice, purely by the

640
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: way his dad looks in his physical language. The instant

641
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 2: he sees him, this kid is like, this isn't the thing.

642
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: This isn't the dad. I know, this isn't my dad.

643
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: Something's wrong, Like, well, that's.

644
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 3: The thing bad when someone when someone is affected like this,

645
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 3: you think, Okay, there's this, you know, twenty five victims,

646
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 3: But it's not. It's whole families, it's whole generations, it's

647
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 3: whole lines. I'm you know that kid felt the repercussions

648
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: like it's.

649
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 2: It's so evil it ripples. Yeah. Yeah, there's actually a

650
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: more depressing parent story in the archives of Chelmsford cases

651
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: if you can believe it, and I know we all

652
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: love a depressing parent story.

653
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: Go on.

654
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: One of doctor Bailey's victims testified before and eventual royal

655
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: commission over what had happened and said this, I went

656
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 2: in for help with post nataled depression. Doctor Bailey told

657
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: me I just needed some rest. I signed something, but

658
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 2: I was already drowsy from pills. They'd given me next

659
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: thing I knew. I woke up three weeks later unable

660
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 2: to remember my children's names.

661
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 3: Wow, oh my god.

662
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fucking like, that's fucking serious kind of stars

663
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: kids names.

664
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's horrific.

665
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: How can you? And this is where I get to

666
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 2: the point that like, Okay, yeah, there's gotta be a

667
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 2: lot of complicity among the staff, because how can you

668
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 2: see a woman go in for postnatal depression and come

669
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: out of a fucking multi week coma unable to remember

670
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: her kids' names and be like, we're helping people if

671
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 2: I mean to do me.

672
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 3: Okay, I think there's like, and this comes down to

673
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 3: the asylum of it all. I think there's this deep

674
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 3: mistrust even now, but probably even you know, more back then,

675
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 3: of anyone doing anything remotely differently, Like I see so

676
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 3: many people that get so freaked out by let's say,

677
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 3: like a homeless person as they move their arm weird,

678
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 3: and I'm like, relax, Like, I think there's like a

679
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:10,239
Speaker 3: deep unless you're moving the exact way, or or your

680
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 3: face is the exact way, or your temperament is the

681
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 3: exact way, that like it's you know, conformed, societally conformed,

682
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 3: then people are deeply off put by you, and so

683
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 3: that's why they're like, oh, this person, you know is

684
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 3: feeling a little sad or is kind of like exposing

685
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 3: that probably you have some sadness after giving birth. Get

686
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 3: them out of my eyesight.

687
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: Get him out of my eyesight. Drug them. Yeah, so the.

688
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 3: Nurses might be like, oh, you know what, she'll recover

689
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 3: and at least now she's not being weird, right.

690
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,719
Speaker 2: And you I think, I think that's a really good point.

691
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 2: And I think in order like also on the case

692
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: of how how people would have thought this was working.

693
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: A lot of his patients are people who are being

694
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 2: like referred from other like from asylums and stuff. Schizophrenic

695
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: they're having like you know, psychotic breaks, so they're like

696
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: loud and like you said, they're moving weird. And then

697
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 2: after a three week coma they're really sedated and quiet

698
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 2: and calm when they leave the hospital. And so maybe

699
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: the nurses are like, ah, they're better, right, that is

700
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,760
Speaker 2: now exactly the problems returned and they have new ones

701
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: now because of what's happened to them. But yeah, exactly,

702
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: I think that's that's probably accurate. So Craig was as

703
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,839
Speaker 2: far as I found the only child to die in Chelmsford,

704
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 2: but children were often admitted. The youngest of doctor Bailey's

705
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 2: patients for deep sleep therapy was ten years old. No, yeah,

706
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: it is not great that said. Death ease not uncommon

707
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: for patients at Chelmsford, particularly if they're patients of doctor Bailey.

708
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 2: I found an essay on the website waking dot Io,

709
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 2: which is a company that offers sleep treatment services, and

710
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: they host a pretty good article about everything that happened

711
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 2: at Chelmsford. I think it's on their site as like

712
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: a reminder of what can go because they're offering like

713
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: sleep treatment. It's like a reminder of like, this is

714
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: what goes wrong if you don't have should standards of medical.

715
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: Ethics, right, that's really good of them to have.

716
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And it's a pretty good article. It provides

717
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 2: statistics on Chelmsford patients quote death rates that Chelmsford were

718
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 2: staggering compared to standard psychiatric care. While typical psychiatric units

719
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies had mortality rates below point five percent,

720
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 2: Bailey's deep sleep therapy patients faced a death rate exceeding

721
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 2: three point five percent, seven times higher than comparable facilities.

722
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 2: One particularly tragic case involved a twenty four year old

723
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: teacher who entered Chelmsford for work related stress and died

724
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: of pneumonia after twenty eight days in a barbituate coma,

725
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 2: leaving behind two young children.

726
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,319
Speaker 3: What is this pneumonia? What's going on?

727
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 2: Well, if you keep people in a coma with their

728
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,319
Speaker 2: central nervous system depressed for weeks on end in a

729
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 2: hospital where like maybe there's other sick people, they'll get sick. Maybe,

730
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 2: or they lied about the cause of death because they

731
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: faked death. Maybe it was just the barbituates killed them

732
00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: and they faked and said it was pneumonia or hurt

733
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:00,040
Speaker 2: that they do it a lot.

734
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 3: That's the question. I did think that I was being

735
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: a bit of a how to do that? Okay, Yeah,

736
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:05,800
Speaker 3: they were lying, as it turned.

737
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: Out they I think they. I don't know that they were,

738
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: but they lie a lot. It's also not unrealistic that

739
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 2: a patient in these circumstances would contract pneumonia. That's still

740
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 2: the hospital's fault because you know, what you don't do

741
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 2: is put someone in a twenty eight day long coma

742
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: because they're stressed out at work. I know that's not

743
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 2: how you solve that. Problem.

744
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 3: Some of this stuff is interesting. Some of this stuff

745
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 3: with mental health, Like I had a great psychiatrist who

746
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 3: would say I'd be like, I'm so anxious, I'm so upset,

747
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 3: blah blah blah about like you know, what's going on

748
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 3: in the world, and she would be like, I feel like,

749
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 3: if you were at this high level and everything was

750
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 3: like regular in the world, I would be worried. But

751
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 3: your response is accurate to what's going on. But I

752
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 3: feel like, as their example, like a school teacher, she's like,

753
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 3: oh my god, I feel a little stressed about being

754
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 3: a school teacher. And nobody's like, yeah, that seems right.

755
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 3: Everyone's like, you gotta get rid of that.

756
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like it's it's it's so fucking hard for me

757
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 2: to believe. And I wonder what he told this this teacher.

758
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: I wonder if she knew it was supposed to be

759
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,320
Speaker 2: twenty eight days. Because people report being underput under longer

760
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: than they agreed to, like Bailey lies a lot to them,

761
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 2: So I don't actually know what this person thought they

762
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: were even getting into, right.

763
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 1: So insane that like people's fucked yeah, but they have

764
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 1: no idea, and then they're there for weeks weeks.

765
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 2: Yep, weeks. We'll talk more about that in a bit.

766
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 2: So if you remember from episode one, Harry Bailey didn't

767
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 2: just work out of Chelmsford. He owns part of it,

768
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 2: and he makes money both from getting consultation fees and

769
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: from getting a cut from the profits of each patient.

770
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:50,879
Speaker 2: This offers some explanation as to the way he may

771
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 2: have done stuff like put plates in people's heads without

772
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 2: their consent. Right, there's possibility that Bailey wasn't even doing

773
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,799
Speaker 2: all of the tortuous stuff he does to people to experiment,

774
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: And he doesn't do stuff like put people up for

775
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 2: twenty eight days because he even just legitimately thinks they

776
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,799
Speaker 2: need that much time. He just wants money, right, mass

777
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: like it. Maybe he may just be randomly inflicting medical

778
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 2: violence on people for profit. It may even be something

779
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: where he'd like, I don't know entirely. Wow, some of

780
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 2: his behavior makes me think that may have been part

781
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: of what was going on. It's certainly something he does sometimes, Okay.

782
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy, upset by the number of corpses that

783
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 2: he had received from Chelmsford and their general condition, the

784
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: local coroner filed a report with the Health departments. The

785
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: Coroner's like, these people are sending me a lot of bodies,

786
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 2: and the bodies they're sending me do not look good.

787
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 2: I am a coroner, I am used to dealing with

788
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 2: dead people from hospitals. This is not normal corner Well,

789
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 2: he tried to be. He tried to be. I haven't

790
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 2: found much more detail with what happened to his report

791
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 2: to the health department other than that the investigation was blocked.

792
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: And it's here I should point out Chelmsford was a

793
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 2: big business. It made a lot of money, and that

794
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: money goes into the local community. As one whistleblower nurse

795
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: later testified, we knew patients were dying unnecessarily. When I

796
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: tried to document the problems, I was threatened with termination.

797
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 2: The head nurse told me Bailey brought in too much

798
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,439
Speaker 2: money for the hospital to risk losing him. I've lived

799
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,919
Speaker 2: with guilt for twenty years about the patients I couldn't save.

800
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,880
Speaker 3: Holy shit, And.

801
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: That explains why the hospital lets him get away with

802
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 2: this that he kind of part owns. But it's also

803
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 2: that explains why I think local elected leaders and local

804
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 2: regulators like the officials don't want to fuck with this

805
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,919
Speaker 2: because there's a lot of money money. Yeah, right, maybe

806
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 2: they're getting bribed. I don't know if they're getting bribed,

807
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 2: or if it's just that there's a lot of money

808
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: in the community, needs it or you know whatever. I

809
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 2: don't entirely know. But he should be getting in trouble

810
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: more often than he does. Right, So that nurse was

811
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 2: at least a partial whistleblower, maybe a little too late

812
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:59,440
Speaker 2: for it to matter, but did something. Not all of

813
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 2: his nurses felt this way. In fact, for most of

814
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: the hospital's time and operation, doctor Bailey seems to have

815
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 2: been very popular with his staff, who often leapt to

816
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 2: defend him. He took care of them in return. As

817
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: this article for The Canberrat Times makes clear, his compulsive

818
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 2: spending included buying jewelry and gifts from expensive shops for

819
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 2: his wife and staff. He bought the latest technology for

820
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: his rooms, as well as Jaden Persian carpets. Another example

821
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 2: of his extravagant lifestyle was his regular attendance at Sydney's

822
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 2: most exclusive restaurants. So he is spreading the money around, right.

823
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 3: And the cities like that.

824
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 2: The cities like that, the staff likes that. You know.

825
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 2: The quote fall at New Vegas. Everybody likes that. You

826
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 2: know what else, everybody likes services. That's right, baby, Everyone

827
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 2: loves a good product, a solid service. You know. Maybe

828
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: there's even an ad for a mental hospital that will

829
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: knock you unconscious for twenty eight straight days.

830
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 3: Jesus Christ.

831
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 2: Look, even after doing all this research, I kind of like, oh,

832
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 2: that might fix my work. I don't know, man, it's

833
00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:01,919
Speaker 2: twenty eight days of sleep.

834
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: Sound I'm not unconvinced.

835
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, sounds all right. Could I just have twenty eight

836
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: days of benzos? Can I just be barred out for

837
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 2: a month? Would that be okay? No, it would not be.

838
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 3: A drug economy.

839
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: You don't fuck around with benzos people. I tried to

840
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 2: make even jokes about drugs anymore, because you never know

841
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: what people are going to take. Seriously, don't fuck with benzos, folks.

842
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: It's really easy to kill yourself if you're stupid. If

843
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,439
Speaker 2: you prescribe them, you know whatever. They're great, they work,

844
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: but they're also interact with a bunch of shit. So

845
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 2: I think one of the most horrifying things about all

846
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 2: of this to me is that at no point did

847
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: doctor Bailey actually have a meaningful scientific theory for why

848
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 2: this was supposed to work. Like when I started digging

849
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: into this story and first read about DST in the

850
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 2: first place, I was like, oh, you know, from a

851
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 2: layman standpoint again, like we've said, I can see why

852
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 2: you'd think this would work, right. And when I started

853
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: reading about this, I was like, oh, so they thought

854
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 2: it was kind of like when a computer fucks up,

855
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:06,400
Speaker 2: the first thing you do is turn it off and

856
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: turn it on again, right, And that was like my

857
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: layman's explanation for how they I assumed they thought this worked.

858
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: But I figured, well, doctor Bailey's a doctor, he's got

859
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: to have a more substantial reason for why he thought

860
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 2: this was a good idea. He and I was wrong.

861
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 2: I was wrong.

862
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 3: Here's how Robert he said he loves the scientific method.

863
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 2: He's a he super indous not loves the scientific method.

864
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the scientific method here. I want to

865
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: read to you how the Sydney Morning Harold says, doctor

866
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: Haley explained the why deep sleep therapy works. And he's

867
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 2: explaining why his version of deep sleep therapy, which now

868
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 2: by default includes electro convulsive therapy. So this is his

869
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 2: explanation for what it does. Bailey likened the treatment to

870
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: switching off at television. His self developed theory was that

871
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 2: the brain, by shutting down for an extended period, would

872
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 2: unlearn habits that led to depression, addiction, and other psychiatric conditions.

873
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 3: It is what you thought. It's exactly what you thought.

874
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 2: What I was joking, you really think. It's just like,

875
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,479
Speaker 2: have you tried turning it off and on again?

876
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 3: That's the exact thing he's saying.

877
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,919
Speaker 2: Exactly, your son's doing heroin if you try to turn

878
00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 2: them off and on.

879
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: I get the concept.

880
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 2: Your daughters schizophrenics if you tried turning it off and on.

881
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 1: Sorry, Sophie, I was gonna say, I get the concert

882
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: because sometimes I'm like, you know, maybe I just need to, like,

883
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 1: you know, use the right kind of phone charger on

884
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 1: my body.

885
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And obviously part of why this is compelling and

886
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: why people believe this is this is a little how

887
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 2: sleep works. It doesn't learn traumatic stuff like addiction and

888
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 2: product addiction, but it does having a little resets good. Yeah.

889
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

890
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: That's also like one of the problems with benzos because

891
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: they're great for certain things like anxiety and stuff. But

892
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 2: if you're like taking a bunch of benzos to deal

893
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 2: with like trauma and stress. It can make it like

894
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: worse because you're not really like healing necessarily, you're not

895
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 2: like working through. It's why they're really hesitant to prescribe

896
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: it for PTSD today because of that reason. So you

897
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 2: have to be very careful when you're utilizing benzos with

898
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 2: patients who are dealing with like trauma and stuff. And

899
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 2: if you're just keeping them barred out for twenty eight

900
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 2: days while they're not working through anything, they're not processing anything,

901
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 2: they're gone. Yeah.

902
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 3: The ideal situation, at least as I understood it was

903
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 3: with mania or for me or with anxiety, was to

904
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 3: sort of bring you back down to a baseline, not

905
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 3: bar you out, but bring you back down to a

906
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,959
Speaker 3: baseline and then you can start to work from there.

907
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,360
Speaker 3: You're not supposed to like bar out so that you

908
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 3: just don't even know about it, right.

909
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:46,799
Speaker 2: It's supposed to be used to like aid and kind

910
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,959
Speaker 2: of like soften and minimize problems while you're still doing

911
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 2: other things to work on them. It's not meant to

912
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 2: just knock you out of existence for weeks on end.

913
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 2: That's not a healthy No reputable doctor says that's what

914
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 2: you should do with benzos right. And again, as we've

915
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: kind of started to talk about, one of the things

916
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: that really differentiates doctor Bailey's approach from the other ways

917
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: people approach deep sleep therapy in Europe is that he

918
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: is a vocal exponent of extremely long sleep therapy. For

919
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 2: most patients. His normal, like his normal prescription, was a

920
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: ten to fourteen day session, but as time went on

921
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: he tries to doing right, that's the norm. But as

922
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 2: time goes on, he's like, well, shit, let me do

923
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 2: fourteen days and I'm getting paid every day. Let's try

924
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 2: three weeks, Let's try four weeks. The longest he keeps

925
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 2: anyone under is thirty nine days. That is long enough,

926
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 2: I mean way less than that, is long enough that

927
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 2: patients are severely weakened after this and need more weeks,

928
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 2: if not months or years of physical therapy to recover.

929
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,359
Speaker 2: Like a thirty nine day coma is a calamity to

930
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:56,960
Speaker 2: your body.

931
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 3: Yes, holy shit. And they're not even and bicycling your

932
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 3: legs for you.

933
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: No, they don't give a fuck about that.

934
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 3: Not even moving your arms around.

935
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 2: Uh huh uh uh. And to illustrate that point, I

936
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 2: want to tell you probably the best and most entailed

937
00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: account that we have from a patient, right, okay, and

938
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 2: this comes from this actually found in the post from

939
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 2: the subreddit user he suggested this. He's just there's an

940
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 2: autobiography of an Australian actress who undergoes this treatment. So,

941
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 2: Tony Lammond was an Australian singer, songwriter, dancer, comedian. She

942
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: was like a triple or. She was a bunch of things.

943
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: Threat right, she does it all. Yeah, here's a picture

944
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 2: of Tony. You can you can see her on screen

945
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: if you can, but if you can't, she's a lady.

946
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 2: She looks nice. Yeah. Now I'm gonna tell all our

947
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 2: Ossie listeners off the bat. I have no goddamned idea

948
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 2: who this woman is, other than you know, I skimmed.

949
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 2: Wikipedia is not really important her like stage career for

950
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 2: our purposes. What you need to know is that in

951
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: the mid sixties she was a moderately fus young performer

952
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 2: who was working nightly at a major stage show and

953
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 2: her husband Frank had just died. Right, so's she's got

954
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 2: this really high pressure job while she is performing. I

955
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 2: think it's a pretty athletic, like a lot of dancing

956
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,760
Speaker 2: performance every single night. It's an exhausting schedule, and she's

957
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 2: just overwhelmed with grief because she lost her husband. She's

958
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 2: a young widow.

959
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: Oh man, So they give her a fuck ton of

960
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 1: drugs she doesn't need, sure do.

961
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 2: Tony was under a lot of stress, and given the

962
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 2: state of medicine at the time, her doctor prescribed her

963
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: huge doses of sedatives, which again likely means she was

964
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,800
Speaker 2: already under barbituates quote. I had not allowed myself to

965
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 2: stop and mourn, but had thrown myself into work out

966
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 2: a financial necessity, she writes in her autobiography First Half.

967
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 2: Seeking Comfort, she winds up reading a book about an

968
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 2: American widow, which convinces her that she's made a mistake

969
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,280
Speaker 2: by dulling her mind to the pain of her husband's

970
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 2: death with pills. Right, and this inspires her to start

971
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 2: exploring mental health care options. So, so far a great

972
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: story about the positive ways books can impact our lives. Right, Okay,

973
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: this woman's in a rut. She reads a book about

974
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: another person who dealt with a similar thing, and she's like,

975
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 2: I'm gonna start taking some real steps to get myself better.

976
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 2: You know, Okay, great, We're it's so hard to do.

977
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 2: It's so hard Tony to get to that point with

978
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 2: the problem like this. Unfortunately, when she starts talking about

979
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 2: telling her friends that she's exploring mental health care options,

980
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: one of them advises her, Hey, I know about this

981
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: famous award winning local doctor who has a pri who

982
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,879
Speaker 2: just helped open a private hospital. Yeah.

983
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 3: Him, So that's that's barbituous again. Yeah, just what she

984
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 3: was doing.

985
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: I'll tell you how it's phrased to her because it's important,

986
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: you know how this is sold to her. So here's

987
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: her autobiography. She and that's her friend recommended I talk

988
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 2: about my problems to doctor Harry Bailey, an imminent psychiatrist.

989
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:51,399
Speaker 2: So she's first told I should talk to this guy

990
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 2: about okay, okay. I made an appointment with him, during

991
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: which I began to articulate what was troubling me. After

992
00:50:57,680 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 2: a one hour session, he suggested I take a special

993
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 2: treatment called deep sleep therapy, which consisted of my being

994
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 2: put to sleep under medical supervisions for a few days

995
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,760
Speaker 2: so that when I awoke, all your troubles will be gone.

996
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:12,759
Speaker 2: In my befuddled state, it sounded pretty good to me.

997
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 2: No more problems lead me to it. Right, She's already

998
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 2: not doing well. She's not sleeping well, she's exhausted from work,

999
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,399
Speaker 2: burnt out and grieving, and he's like, I gotta put

1000
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 2: you down for a few days and then it'll be better.

1001
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 2: And she's like, maybe, right, she's going to take time

1002
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: off her job. Great question. So next she writes, doctor

1003
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 2: Bailey arranged for me to have a week off from

1004
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,880
Speaker 2: the show. How nice of him. We'll come back to

1005
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:41,920
Speaker 2: that in a minute. She is admitted to his hospital

1006
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,880
Speaker 2: that Friday, within days of coming to him. Tony recalls

1007
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 2: entering the hospital and feeling excited that she was now

1008
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 2: taking her healing seriously and was on the road to

1009
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 2: having a new life. She was put up in a

1010
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 2: semi private room, and along the way she saw several

1011
00:51:56,239 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 2: beds lining the corridors, filled with sleeping people. Quote. Although

1012
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 2: it was mid morning, the stillness was eerie for a

1013
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 2: hospital that looked to be full to overflowing. I was

1014
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: given a handful of pills to take, and the next

1015
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 2: thing I remember was doctor Bailey's standing by the bed,

1016
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 2: asking me how I felt. I told him I'd had

1017
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 2: a good night's sleep. He laughed and informed me it

1018
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 2: was ten days later, and what's more, he had taken

1019
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: some weight off me. He sure had nearly seven kilos.

1020
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 2: I didn't mind that, as I have always had trouble

1021
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 2: with my weight, but that much in ten days, I

1022
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:28,720
Speaker 2: was checked out of the hospital and this time noticed

1023
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 2: the other patients were still asleep or being taken to

1024
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: the restroom while out on their feet. And that's fucked

1025
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,839
Speaker 2: up a lot of the fact that that I.

1026
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 3: Was thinking that it's going to start being about weight loss.

1027
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well there's at least she's the one who talks

1028
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,320
Speaker 2: about it. But he must have been pitching this to others.

1029
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 2: He must have been selling this to others. What this

1030
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 2: actually means is that they weren't taking adequate care of

1031
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 2: you while you were down. As she notes, you should

1032
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 2: never be losing that much weight in that's.

1033
00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 1: So much money in such a short time.

1034
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, this means they were not taking care of you.

1035
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 3: Is she fired?

1036
00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 2: Great question, so really focused on the right stuff. I know,

1037
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 2: I know she's immediately shocked at so much. It's also

1038
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 2: interesting to me that like mid conversation, basically, hey, take

1039
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: these pills and she's just out, and that's how the

1040
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 2: treatment starts. So her day job, as we noted, required

1041
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,439
Speaker 2: her to dance, but after ten days motionless in bed.

1042
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:26,879
Speaker 2: She can barely move, so she can't get right back

1043
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 2: to dancing. But even if she had been fit enough

1044
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 2: to do so, it turns out doctor Bailey lied to

1045
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 2: her about having work things out with her employer. Comes. Yeah,

1046
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 2: he just he just straight up bullshatter, and Tony gets

1047
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 2: fired while she's under in a sleep and replaced.

1048
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 3: Wow, that's my biggest problem. I have real bullshit in

1049
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 3: my mind. I was like, was she fired? Did she

1050
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 3: really have she missed? She missed work?

1051
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, now that said she does, right. I wasn't too upset.

1052
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 2: I was having difficulty remembering the simplest things like on

1053
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 2: which side of the envelope to put a stamp. So basically,

1054
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,280
Speaker 2: she's saying like, I wasn't even angry get fired because

1055
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: my brain wasn't working at all. But I was not.

1056
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: I was in such a fog I couldn't function.

1057
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 3: Wow, green dog is so scary. It's so scary.

1058
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, especially when you shouldn't have it because it

1059
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 2: only exists because some guy fucking force fed you barbituates

1060
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 2: while starting you. So the sleep therapy itself did nothing

1061
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: for Tony once she had like she obviously after this

1062
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,479
Speaker 2: she has to spend weeks pulling herself back together, getting

1063
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 2: her brain and her body all working again. And she

1064
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 2: does get work again. She gets back into the industry.

1065
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 2: She's back to performing, but she still can't sleep, and

1066
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 2: so she has to go back on the sedatives that

1067
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,160
Speaker 2: she'd been on, and she also starts taking valium for

1068
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:54,839
Speaker 2: good measure. So his therapy does nothing. Her problems are

1069
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 2: the same as they were. She even writes, my problems

1070
00:54:57,800 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: were still there, I just didn't remember them.

1071
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: Like.

1072
00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:06,800
Speaker 2: This doesn't help her, right, it's only back now. Tony

1073
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: is kind of one of the lucky ones because this

1074
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 2: like sucks. But after a few weeks she's back, you know,

1075
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: back better than ever. Her career doesn't, right, her career

1076
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,600
Speaker 2: doesn't take a long term hit. And this is probably

1077
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 2: the most common type of doctor Bailey experience. Right, a

1078
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 2: patient gets treated, they come back to their life, and

1079
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 2: they have a lot of problet. They've got to you know,

1080
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 2: recover physically and stuff and mentally from it. But they

1081
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,200
Speaker 2: get better more or less. Their problems don't really go away,

1082
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: and maybe they continue to suffer some physical consequences, but

1083
00:55:40,600 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 2: overall their life continues and they just move on with things. Right,

1084
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: and Tony does. She never doesn't sue the doctor. She

1085
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: goes on. She has an eighty year career. She only

1086
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,839
Speaker 2: died last year twenty five at the age of ninety three.

1087
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 2: So her life seems to have gone well after this point.

1088
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:59,640
Speaker 2: And I'm happy for her. Yeah, I can't say that

1089
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 2: for a lot lot of these people. And again, even

1090
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:05,320
Speaker 2: though her story works out okay, she still suffers terribly

1091
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: for no reason. You know. It takes her a long

1092
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 2: time to recover, and she's more. There are more than

1093
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 2: a thousand people with versions of that story as their

1094
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 2: best case scenario. For a lot of these people, the

1095
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 2: day they walked into doctor Bailey's office was the worst

1096
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:26,439
Speaker 2: mistake they ever made. But for him, it was Tuesday, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1097
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:27,319
Speaker 3: Uh.

1098
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 2: There's a quote from doctor Philip Hickey's article about doctor

1099
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,400
Speaker 2: Bailey's ongoing correspondence with that guy from the UK, doctor

1100
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 2: Sargent that puts a lot of Bailey's attitude in contact

1101
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 2: to me, they ian sergeant remained in close contact and

1102
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 2: reportedly even vied with one another to see which could

1103
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 2: keep a patient in the deepest coma. So that's part

1104
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 2: of why these are so long, is he's fighting with

1105
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 2: this guy. I bet I can do forty nine days,

1106
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:53,600
Speaker 2: you know, or thirty you know? Whatever?

1107
00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: Well, what the fuck is? This is not fucking John

1108
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 1: Tucker must die? What are we doing here?

1109
00:56:57,880 --> 00:56:58,760
Speaker 2: What are we doing here?

1110
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 3: Why are men this way?

1111
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: Wire?

1112
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 3: Men? I can't believe I abandoned everything to join you

1113
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 3: all in this fucking bullshit.

1114
00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh man, if you'd asked me, I wouldn't have

1115
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 2: recommended it. Yeah, men, I don't know. I think I

1116
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 2: think we need to create men two point oh, which

1117
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 2: is like I love it. Maybe we have like a

1118
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 2: governorship or something that shuts down when you get when

1119
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: you get two into certain things.

1120
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like it. I like it.

1121
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, like if you get to punish your tattoo on

1122
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,920
Speaker 2: your body, it just you know, you're out. You're out,

1123
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 2: You're done. That's it.

1124
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: Gotta be honest. Don't like the don't like the phrase

1125
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 1: men two point oh made me, made me queasy? Didn't

1126
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: love it?

1127
00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 2: You're right, we should go it. We should start with

1128
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 2: men three point oh phrase. Fine, So far, far too

1129
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 2: many Chelmsford patients did not survive their time with doctor Bailey.

1130
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many. Exactly every article if

1131
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: every like reputable article is a little different art because

1132
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 2: more research comes out. Right, most articles you'll find say

1133
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 2: that from nineteen sixty three to nineteen seventy nine, twenty

1134
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 2: four people died as a direct result of doctor Bailey's

1135
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 2: deep sleep therapy, Like they died in the hospital while

1136
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 2: undergoing the therapy, and then eight nineteen further DST patients

1137
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 2: committed suicide within a year of undergoing therapy.

1138
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:25,200
Speaker 3: I was going to ask, Yeah, oh my god, nineteen

1139
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 3: seventy nine.

1140
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, seventy nine is when this start, said, yeah, And

1141
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 2: depending on who you count. Also, the direct death toll

1142
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 2: could be as high as twenty seven. I've found at

1143
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 2: least one higher number, but it seems to be somewhere

1144
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 2: between twenty four and twenty seven, depending on how you

1145
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:45,600
Speaker 2: count it. People died directly as a result of justice therapy. Yeah.

1146
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,160
Speaker 1: How many patients has he seen in total? Do we know?

1147
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 2: Yes? Kind of, I'll tell you.

1148
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1149
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 2: By the mid nineteen seventies, enough people had been permanently

1150
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 2: injured or killed, and there had been enough complaints and

1151
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 2: investigations into what doctor Bailey was doing that resistance had

1152
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:05,480
Speaker 2: started to build to doctor Bailey's methods. Other Australian psychiatrists

1153
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 2: began speaking out slowly at first against deep sleep therapy.

1154
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 2: But what would really change things was the case of

1155
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 2: Barry Francis Hart. In February of nineteen seventy three, he

1156
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 2: entered the Chelmsford Clinic. He'd been an actor and a

1157
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 2: model until a botched cosmetic surgery caused him like lifelong injury.

1158
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: This leads to depression. You know, it's a bummer, so

1159
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 2: he seeks professional help for the depression. A nurse came

1160
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 2: up to him while he was still sitting in the

1161
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 2: waiting area, so he hasn't even the way he says

1162
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,040
Speaker 2: at heart says. He goes to Chelmsford because he wants

1163
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 2: to talk about getting help for his depression, and a

1164
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 2: nurse walks up to him while he is in the

1165
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,440
Speaker 2: waiting area and gives me a glass of water and

1166
00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 2: a pill to quote quill you down. He takes the pill,

1167
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 2: having never agreed the treatment, and wakes up naked in

1168
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 2: a hospital room two weeks later. No, like this, holy shit,

1169
00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 2: this holy shit movie shit. In terms of breaches of

1170
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 2: medical ethics, that's about the breachingest you get. He was.

1171
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,040
Speaker 3: He was like this, watched plastic surgery is gonna be

1172
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:12,880
Speaker 3: the worst medical experience of Michael.

1173
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, man, let me tell you, Oh my god. Uh oh,

1174
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 2: So he recalls quote when I got out, I was

1175
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 2: jumping at noises and couldn't concentrate. I had brain damage

1176
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 2: and post traumatic stress disorder. Yeah. Now, doctor Bailey's not

1177
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 2: his position. Doctor Heron is, but doctor Herron is. Basically

1178
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:34,840
Speaker 2: Bailey's like a fucking uh pro, like a mintee, right

1179
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: and works that you're right, and he's doing the same treatment.

1180
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 2: So heart after he realizes what's happened to him and

1181
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 2: gets out of the hospital, sues doctor Herron and attempts

1182
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:49,760
Speaker 2: to have him charged with kidnapping and assault. Unfortunately, fuck yeah,

1183
01:00:49,760 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 2: which he did should have happened. However, his records are

1184
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 2: modified by the hospital, and the records say he consented

1185
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 2: to the procedure, so it's a he said, he said

1186
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:06,520
Speaker 2: sort of deal right now. Ultimately, the hospital settles with him,

1187
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 2: so they're worried enough that they give him a small

1188
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 2: amount of money. Right, But he does not get you know,

1189
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 2: he doesn't get doctor Aaron arrested. He doesn't get a

1190
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 2: lot of what he wants, but his case starts to

1191
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: attract attention the news covers it, right.

1192
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 3: The news about to get a hold of us. Thank god.

1193
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is not the first time, but it's the

1194
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 2: first time it does in a big way, and it's

1195
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 2: the first time that like people kind of stay interested

1196
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 2: and start thinking, like, what's going on in that hospital? Right?

1197
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 2: So after this point, after hearts suit, other patients who

1198
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: have maybe been suffering silently but being like, well, what

1199
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:42,440
Speaker 2: can I do right? Or maybe it's my fault it

1200
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 2: didn't work. Right, now they have someone who's like, oh,

1201
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 2: maybe I was mistreated by my doctor. Yeah. Yeah. And

1202
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,800
Speaker 2: also there are patients who probably had complained, but as

1203
01:01:54,840 --> 01:01:57,960
Speaker 2: we've stated before, the complaints went nowhere, the regulators ignored them,

1204
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 2: and those patients now realize maybe the wall of immunity

1205
01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 2: that's been protecting this guy is starting to fail, So

1206
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 2: maybe I can try to complain again and it'll get somewhere.

1207
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,240
Speaker 2: Lawsuits begin piling up against the hospital and against doctor

1208
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 2: Bailey after this point. Okay, bad, Perry, that's good. That's good. Now.

1209
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 2: A little bit ago, I gave you some numbers. Twenty

1210
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 2: four to twenty seven dead as a result of his

1211
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 2: deep sleep therapy, and nineteen suicides within a year. Of

1212
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 2: receiving the therapy. Those are not the only numbers that

1213
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:29,040
Speaker 2: I've found, although the next set of numbers I'm going

1214
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,919
Speaker 2: to give you is questionable for some reasons. I'll explain. Okay,

1215
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 2: I'm about to read you a quote from the A

1216
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 2: Reuter's article I've read from a couple of times before.

1217
01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 2: It was written by a journalist named Michael Perry in

1218
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. Here's what he wrote. Quote. In all, one

1219
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 2: hundred and eighty three deep sleep patients died either in

1220
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:48,440
Speaker 2: hospital or within a year of returning to the outside world. Well,

1221
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 2: nine hundred and seventy seven were diagnosed as brain damaged.

1222
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 2: The article claims that doctor Bailey treated more than three

1223
01:02:55,440 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 2: thousand patients with DST. Now, wow, those are bad numbers.

1224
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 2: The original ones were not good. But those numbers are

1225
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 2: also different from the other numbers that I have found

1226
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 2: in reputable Ruters is obviously a generally reputable source. So

1227
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,320
Speaker 2: is The Sydney Morning Harold. And The Sydney Morning Harold

1228
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 2: says that doctor Bailey only treated eleven hundred and twenty

1229
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 2: seven people with deep sleep therapy. Okay, and I found

1230
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 2: that number in several publications. I suspect it's correct. However,

1231
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 2: it's possible that Michael Perry just kind of miswrote, and

1232
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 2: maybe he was giving the number for the total number

1233
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 2: of patients at Chelmsford that other doctors and doctor Bailey

1234
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:34,560
Speaker 2: treated with DST. Maybe he just kind of fucked that up.

1235
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 2: I don't know, possible to me. Reuters is normally pretty reputable,

1236
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 2: and one of the things that does worry me about

1237
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 2: the other numbers he gave is I haven't found one

1238
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: hundred and third eighty three patients died in the hospital

1239
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 2: or within a year of getting out of the hospital,

1240
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 2: well nine hundred and seventy seven are brain damaged. I

1241
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:55,520
Speaker 2: have not found those numbers anywhere else, which makes me

1242
01:03:55,880 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 2: concerned for a reason. Right hooked in to first the journalist,

1243
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 2: and Michael Perry seems to be a veteran reporter. He

1244
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 2: still wrote for Reuter's as recently as a year ago.

1245
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 2: I have no reason to suspect him of malpractice. But

1246
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 2: his article is old. It's from nineteen ninety, so maybe

1247
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 2: that's why the numbers are different. Maybe there's kind of outdated,

1248
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 2: But again I didn't run into him anywhere, and it's

1249
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 2: rare for numbers like this to be high and then

1250
01:04:21,640 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 2: massively reduced lower. One of his major sources for this article,

1251
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,000
Speaker 2: and one of the reasons that I kind of question

1252
01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 2: aspects of it, is that he bases a good amount

1253
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 2: of it on a nurse that he describes as a whistleblower,

1254
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 2: and she was. Her name was Rosa Nicholson. Here's how

1255
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 2: Perry describes her story. After a friend died following deep

1256
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:42,440
Speaker 2: sleep treatment, she spent eighteen months trying to get a

1257
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 2: job at Chelmsford. In mid nineteen seventy seven, an advertisement

1258
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 2: in a Sydney newspaper gave her a chance. For the

1259
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 2: next two years, she smuggled hospital and patient records out

1260
01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:55,160
Speaker 2: of Chelmsford, photocopied and returned them. Very cool, right, that's great,

1261
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 2: this is all true. You're about to get You're feeling

1262
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 2: happy and you should didn't be right, is behind the bastards.

1263
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 2: Good things don't happen here. So, of course, on paper,

1264
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 2: it's pretty cool that Rose is undercover, you know, for years,

1265
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 2: feeding information about Bailey's operation. But that begs the question

1266
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 2: to whom is she feeding the information? She's sending it

1267
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 2: to a journalist. No, no, So she has helpers who

1268
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 2: are helping to fund and and her her question, who

1269
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:32,360
Speaker 2: are taking the information that she gathers? And those helpers

1270
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,360
Speaker 2: are the Church of Scientology.

1271
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 3: Because they hate psychiatry.

1272
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 2: Because they hate psychiatry. That's right, baby, surprise second villain,

1273
01:05:46,000 --> 01:05:50,919
Speaker 2: the church is Scientology with a steel chair A Oh

1274
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 2: my god, I love it. I love it. Oh yeah,

1275
01:05:55,760 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 2: And so I wonder if maybe Perry's article you going

1276
01:05:59,160 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 2: to help? Great question. Part of why so I do

1277
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 2: wonder is maybe Perry's numbers high because he scientologists gave

1278
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 2: them to him. But par the Sydney Morning Herald quote

1279
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 2: two scientologists Ron Siegel and Jane Skate had worked with

1280
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:16,880
Speaker 2: the Chelmsford nurse Rosa Nicholson to uncover evidence by stealing

1281
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 2: files and secretly, according Bailey, in the late nineteen seventies,

1282
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:23,240
Speaker 2: and Rosa did find some pretty damning stuff. She much

1283
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 2: later testified at the Royal and Quat Inquiry. Over All

1284
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,200
Speaker 2: this quote, Nicholson told the Commission deep sleep patients frequently

1285
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 2: suffered internal bleeding and severe infections. They were given electric

1286
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 2: shock therapy every day except Sunday. And I think that's

1287
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 2: pretty much true. Unfortunately, at the actual times that she

1288
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 2: was in place trying to stop doctor Bailey. The fact

1289
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 2: that she was feeding all of this info to scientologists

1290
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 2: meant that her work had the opposite of the intended effect.

1291
01:06:49,320 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 2: As you mentioned, Gabe, the Church of Scientology is a

1292
01:06:52,360 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: huge grudge with the whole field of psychiatry. And this

1293
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 2: goes back to the days of l. Ron Hubbard, because

1294
01:06:57,080 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 2: scientology starts as dianetics build as a replacement science for psychiatry, right,

1295
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:07,640
Speaker 2: And as a result, he taught that because psychiatrists don't

1296
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 2: embrace Dianetics, he teaches his followers that psychiatry is a

1297
01:07:11,440 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 2: murderous cabal that tortures and kills people for money and power. Unfortunately,

1298
01:07:16,400 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 2: it just so happens that does kind of describe the

1299
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 2: psychiatrists at Chelmsford a little. Yeah, these guys are as

1300
01:07:26,480 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 2: evil as the Church of Scientology things all psychiatrists are. Now.

1301
01:07:32,880 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 2: It just so happens that doctor Bailey and his colleagues

1302
01:07:35,960 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 2: at Chelmsford were that bad. But the way the scientologists

1303
01:07:40,880 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 2: go about trying to release the information that's gathered for

1304
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:47,920
Speaker 2: them backfires and it actually damages the cases of former

1305
01:07:48,000 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 2: patients who are trying to get the clinic shut down.

1306
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:54,320
Speaker 1: No Scientology plan did not go well and ended up

1307
01:07:54,440 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 1: damaging many individuals who could have thought of that I

1308
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 1: shocking information?

1309
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:07,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh no for the Sydney Morning harold the scientists.

1310
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 2: The scientologists' involvement enabled chulms for to smear the whistleblowers

1311
01:08:11,080 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 2: and patients. Heart would be accused of being a scientologist himself,

1312
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 2: which still raises a rare laugh. Ha ha, Yes, I

1313
01:08:16,960 --> 01:08:19,920
Speaker 2: had a botched plastic surgery and nearly got myself killed. Also,

1314
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 2: I could be an agent of the scientologists.

1315
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 3: Well nowadays I'm like maybe maybe.

1316
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, crazier shit. So this elaborate scheme also was not

1317
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,439
Speaker 2: necessary to cause doctor Bailey's downfall. The same year Heart

1318
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 2: sued the hospital, a group of his colleagues filed a

1319
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:41,479
Speaker 2: former complaint with Australia's equivalent of the AMA like their

1320
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:46,679
Speaker 2: main medical association, against doctor Bailey's custom deep sleep therapy method.

1321
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 2: The lawsuit was or the complaint was dismissed, But two

1322
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 2: years later, as lawsuits against doctor Bailey ballooned, his insurance

1323
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 2: company reported the hospital to a different regular government regulator

1324
01:08:57,439 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 2: and be like, Hey, a lot of people are dying

1325
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 2: at this hospital.

1326
01:09:00,640 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 3: Oh my god, how many people have to tell you that?

1327
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're the government maybe do something about it again.

1328
01:09:06,200 --> 01:09:08,760
Speaker 2: When the when an insurance company is kind of a

1329
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 2: good guy on the story, you know things are bad.

1330
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:17,680
Speaker 2: Oh holy shit, so fuck all is done in this

1331
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 2: case too. The regulators ignore the warning. It must have

1332
01:09:22,400 --> 01:09:25,160
Speaker 2: seen to a lot of people to the pay former

1333
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 2: patients of doctor Bailey that we're still dealing even in

1334
01:09:28,840 --> 01:09:32,360
Speaker 2: the late seventies with the same old teflon Harry. But

1335
01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:36,479
Speaker 2: he wasn't. Doctor Bailey is beginning to fray under the

1336
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,599
Speaker 2: constant brush of lawsuits and bad press, and he starts

1337
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 2: to lose his mind. Some of this may have been

1338
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:47,880
Speaker 2: caused be well, yeah, but it isn't the consequence of

1339
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:54,800
Speaker 2: my own at actions. Shit. I should also say, I

1340
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:57,799
Speaker 2: think some of his derangement is that for like decade,

1341
01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 2: like twenty years now, he's rich, he's been rich, and

1342
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:03,960
Speaker 2: his day job has given him absolute power over hundreds

1343
01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:07,640
Speaker 2: of people's bodies. And I think that just makes you

1344
01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,680
Speaker 2: crazy in a bad way.

1345
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:13,600
Speaker 3: God, God, com yes.

1346
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:15,000
Speaker 2: That destroys your mind.

1347
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 1: You know.

1348
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 2: As the years went on, his staff goes from adoring

1349
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 2: him to frightened of him. Quote former nurse Leslie Hose

1350
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:28,360
Speaker 2: told the Commission, Bailey once told staff don't call me Harry,

1351
01:10:28,640 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 2: call me God.

1352
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:31,720
Speaker 3: See what did I say?

1353
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,880
Speaker 2: Right there? I thought, God, he is mad. She said,

1354
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 2: when you work with psychiatrists for that long, you sort

1355
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:41,720
Speaker 2: of get to know the crazy ones. He really did

1356
01:10:41,800 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 2: believe what he was doing was helping people, it was said,

1357
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 2: which is a real He really thought it was said?

1358
01:10:48,960 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 3: It was sa.

1359
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. Maybe.

1360
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 3: I think also, when you have all that going for

1361
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:55,040
Speaker 3: you for so long and then you start to lose

1362
01:10:55,280 --> 01:10:58,960
Speaker 3: that like adoration, that's also you go crazy.

1363
01:10:59,080 --> 01:11:02,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, yep, I think you're probably right on the money

1364
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:05,000
Speaker 2: with that too. And there's further support for the mad

1365
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:07,920
Speaker 2: King Harry thesis. In nineteen ninety one, the British Medical

1366
01:11:08,000 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 2: Journal published an article that claimed doctor Bailey showed signs

1367
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 2: of delusional behaviors, such as referring to himself as a Martian.

1368
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 2: Oh no, I had not found more detail on that,

1369
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:19,360
Speaker 2: and I wish I had. I don't know what the

1370
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:20,320
Speaker 2: fuck that means.

1371
01:11:20,720 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 1: That's oh, a weird day for me to be wearing

1372
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 1: an alien sweater.

1373
01:11:24,880 --> 01:11:27,519
Speaker 2: Uh oh, because they didn't write about it like it

1374
01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:29,560
Speaker 2: was a bit scientology.

1375
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,719
Speaker 3: Scientologist came by and said.

1376
01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 2: Hello, convinced he was an alien. So there's a lot,

1377
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:38,160
Speaker 2: My god, a lot. That's awful about this guy. But

1378
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 2: one of the worst things is that, perhaps not surprisingly,

1379
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 2: he was a sex pest and he regularly had sex

1380
01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 2: with his patients.

1381
01:11:45,520 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 3: No, he knew it. We knew.

1382
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,800
Speaker 2: I say, I said it had sex, not raped. I

1383
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 2: don't know that that's entirely true, because given that he's

1384
01:11:55,439 --> 01:11:58,600
Speaker 2: the sleep doctor, right, the fact that he fucks his

1385
01:11:58,760 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 2: patients immediate brings to my pretty awful question. Were all

1386
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 2: those patients awake and I don't know, yes, is this.

1387
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 3: A Gibel volume one situation? And also he's their psychiatrist,

1388
01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:12,519
Speaker 3: so it's already right.

1389
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 2: He should be doing Yeah, if they're awake, it's still bad.

1390
01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 2: But the British Medical Journal just notes that he had

1391
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:25,559
Speaker 2: sex with his patients on multiple occasions. That Reuter's piece

1392
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:28,719
Speaker 2: adds a little more detail. Staff said Bailey had sex

1393
01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 2: with his female patients, often ordering them sent by taxi

1394
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:35,240
Speaker 2: to his officer home late at night. I really hope

1395
01:12:35,240 --> 01:12:41,639
Speaker 2: those are conscious people being sent by taxi. No, that's

1396
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 2: still bad and it is still real bad. The Australian

1397
01:12:47,200 --> 01:12:50,720
Speaker 2: Encyclopedia of Biography adds Bailey reveled in the trappings of

1398
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:53,639
Speaker 2: professional power and exploited the vulnerabilities of those in his care,

1399
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:56,600
Speaker 2: having sexual relationships with a number of female patients and

1400
01:12:56,640 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 2: some employees. Now, the same source claims his wife showed

1401
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 2: pretty intense loyalty to him for years, and I don't

1402
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:06,800
Speaker 2: know when that stopped. She's described by one article as

1403
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 2: estranged prior to his death, along with their two adopted daughters.

1404
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 2: Probably for the best there. I don't know how if

1405
01:13:16,120 --> 01:13:18,400
Speaker 2: his wife was aware of any of the really bad

1406
01:13:18,439 --> 01:13:21,000
Speaker 2: so she just knew that he was not well right

1407
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 2: and was cheating on her constantly. I don't think there's

1408
01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:25,559
Speaker 2: not any particular reason for me to believe that his

1409
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 2: family knew anything about like the horrible medical crimes he's committing. Right,

1410
01:13:29,439 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 2: and also it's like the seventies, there's not a lot

1411
01:13:32,720 --> 01:13:35,439
Speaker 2: of ways his family would have been able to know

1412
01:13:35,560 --> 01:13:39,639
Speaker 2: what was really going on. Right, the walls start closing

1413
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 2: in on doctor Bailey in nineteen seventy seven. It starts

1414
01:13:42,479 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 2: with the suicide of his patient and lover, a prominent

1415
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:49,680
Speaker 2: dancer named Sharon Hamilton. She left her entire estate to

1416
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:52,600
Speaker 2: doctor Bailey, which fueled public speculation that he may have

1417
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:55,680
Speaker 2: somehow caused her death. That right, maybe he even murdered her, Right,

1418
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:58,920
Speaker 2: there's a lot. There's a news articles about this, and

1419
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:01,280
Speaker 2: that fucks Bailey up. First of all, the fact that

1420
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:03,360
Speaker 2: people are talking about it like he killed this woman

1421
01:14:03,400 --> 01:14:05,000
Speaker 2: because he seems to have been in love with her.

1422
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:09,000
Speaker 2: Bailey is so distraught after her death that he undergoes

1423
01:14:09,200 --> 01:14:12,639
Speaker 2: DST for the first time himself. He puts himself under

1424
01:14:12,640 --> 01:14:15,720
Speaker 2: for days to try to deal with like his feelings

1425
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:16,559
Speaker 2: in the wake of this.

1426
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 3: There are so many twists and turns into.

1427
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 2: Fucking story, fucking wild. Right, he's drink kool aid. He

1428
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 2: seems to have increasingly started taking his own medications after

1429
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:32,479
Speaker 2: this point, So everything that happens next in the story,

1430
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 2: you have to imagine this guy is on a shitload

1431
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 2: of anax or whatever the equivalent was supply.

1432
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:39,439
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1433
01:14:39,520 --> 01:14:43,120
Speaker 2: Man, never a good idea. So during my research I

1434
01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:47,480
Speaker 2: came across an interesting source truth about ECT. That's Electroconvulsive

1435
01:14:47,479 --> 01:14:51,439
Speaker 2: Therapy dot org, which is based its name and I

1436
01:14:51,680 --> 01:14:53,920
Speaker 2: I didn't Number one, that name not a trustworthy news

1437
01:14:53,960 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 2: source to me. Number two, the website looks like a

1438
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 2: real shitty blog, not not a great And you know

1439
01:14:59,240 --> 01:15:01,759
Speaker 2: I've quoted for the Chelmsford Blog, which is a blog

1440
01:15:01,800 --> 01:15:04,760
Speaker 2: that was like meant because written by people, I think

1441
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,360
Speaker 2: by people who are angry that this is not better known.

1442
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 2: And I used it as a source because it cites

1443
01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:12,240
Speaker 2: its sources extensively, and after looking at the sources, I

1444
01:15:12,280 --> 01:15:13,840
Speaker 2: was able to show that it's a good essay. Everything

1445
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 2: it says is accurate. So I'm not inclined to trust

1446
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:20,599
Speaker 2: the website necessarily, but I wanted to look into it,

1447
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:22,679
Speaker 2: so I like read the article to see if it seemed,

1448
01:15:22,840 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 2: you know, reasonable, what it was saying. And it hosted

1449
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 2: a twenty twenty piece by an author named jan Eastgate,

1450
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 2: and that name was familiar to me because Janeyestgate is

1451
01:15:31,360 --> 01:15:34,880
Speaker 2: one of the two scientologists who worked with Nurse Rosa Nicholson.

1452
01:15:35,160 --> 01:15:38,840
Speaker 2: She is now president of CCHR International. This is the

1453
01:15:38,880 --> 01:15:41,920
Speaker 2: Citizens Commission on Human Rights, a lobbying organization for the

1454
01:15:42,000 --> 01:15:43,080
Speaker 2: Church of Scientology.

1455
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:45,160
Speaker 3: Right, oh my god.

1456
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:46,559
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1457
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:49,280
Speaker 3: They loved everything everywhere all at once.

1458
01:15:49,400 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 1: They loved to use dot org.

1459
01:15:52,320 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, website for fake news sites.

1460
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 1: It's one of their major Yeah, it's one of their

1461
01:15:58,439 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 1: go tos.

1462
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:03,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, they love doing that it. Yeah. But that said,

1463
01:16:03,320 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 2: it's still kind of worthwhile to talk about this source

1464
01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:08,800
Speaker 2: because Janney's Gate is directly involved in this. She's working

1465
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:13,640
Speaker 2: with Rosa as she's undercover. So that's an interesting source. Yeah,

1466
01:16:13,720 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 2: the source.

1467
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1468
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the article from twenty twenty is a memorial

1469
01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 2: that Eastgate wrote for Rosa, her friend who had recently

1470
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 2: passed on, and in it, jan makes this claim. I

1471
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:27,600
Speaker 2: remember there were allegations that doctor Bailey shot up a

1472
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:30,320
Speaker 2: residence over the suicide death of one of his patients,

1473
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:33,360
Speaker 2: Sharon Hamilton, with whom he'd had a sexual affair, and

1474
01:16:33,439 --> 01:16:37,640
Speaker 2: electro shocked her when she became vocal about it. I

1475
01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 2: don't know if this is true. I have not come

1476
01:16:40,360 --> 01:16:41,960
Speaker 2: across other claims of this.

1477
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:43,439
Speaker 3: What an asshole.

1478
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:45,240
Speaker 2: I wouldn't put it past.

1479
01:16:45,000 --> 01:16:49,080
Speaker 3: Him, Yeah, right, but he was upset about it.

1480
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and giving it's giving, Yeah.

1481
01:16:57,520 --> 01:16:58,280
Speaker 3: Dahmer, it's giving.

1482
01:16:58,360 --> 01:16:58,679
Speaker 2: Dahmer.

1483
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 3: Right, if she's like try to talk or she's he

1484
01:17:01,960 --> 01:17:04,000
Speaker 3: like loves her quote unquote, it's going to try to

1485
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:06,200
Speaker 3: like leave, He's like, I'll make her a zombie and

1486
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:08,599
Speaker 3: then she'll stay with me forever. Oops, she's dead.

1487
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:14,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, hard to say, Like I haven't I haven't found

1488
01:17:14,360 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 2: Like I can't prove any of that obviously, And I

1489
01:17:16,360 --> 01:17:18,559
Speaker 2: haven't found. I don't believe the shooting thing just because

1490
01:17:18,640 --> 01:17:21,040
Speaker 2: like that probably would have made the news, all right,

1491
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:22,960
Speaker 2: I might have made the news. I don't know. You know,

1492
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 2: it was easier to get guns in Australia back then.

1493
01:17:25,000 --> 01:17:26,880
Speaker 2: It's probe Arthur.

1494
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:32,439
Speaker 3: But the Psychiatric Museum of Death that's in LA what

1495
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 3: if it's like it has all of this information in it.

1496
01:17:35,840 --> 01:17:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, I'm certain because they make a big deal

1497
01:17:38,400 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 2: about this because that they'll use the much bigger numbers

1498
01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:45,720
Speaker 2: Reuters had, which like, again, he's bad enough without exaggerating

1499
01:17:45,760 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 2: the numbers. Well and wow, And.

1500
01:17:47,560 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 3: Isn't that how he would just want it. He would

1501
01:17:50,439 --> 01:17:52,680
Speaker 3: want the numbers to look even.

1502
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 2: More Honestly, it's kind of an honor to him, right yeah, yep, yep, yep.

1503
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:03,960
Speaker 2: So yeah. In nineteen eighty sixty Minutes ran an episode

1504
01:18:03,960 --> 01:18:06,879
Speaker 2: on the death of one of doctor Bailey's patients, Miriam Podio,

1505
01:18:06,920 --> 01:18:09,840
Speaker 2: who had passed in nineteen seventy seven. This added fuel

1506
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 2: to the simmering fire that had been building for quite

1507
01:18:11,800 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 2: some time. Per the Australian Encyclopedia of Biography. Five years later,

1508
01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 2: a coronial inquest into her death was held, and in

1509
01:18:18,479 --> 01:18:21,479
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty three, Bailey was charged with manslaughter, although the

1510
01:18:21,560 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 2: charge was dismissed in nineteen eighty five. The media siege

1511
01:18:24,320 --> 01:18:28,440
Speaker 2: was intense, sick, tired, dispirited after facing years of litigation.

1512
01:18:28,840 --> 01:18:31,600
Speaker 2: On eighth of September nineteen eighty five, he drove to

1513
01:18:31,600 --> 01:18:34,400
Speaker 2: Mount White and parked on an isolated track. The next

1514
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:36,880
Speaker 2: day police found him dead, the cause of death being

1515
01:18:36,920 --> 01:18:40,599
Speaker 2: attempted barbituate poisoning. He was survived by his estranged wife

1516
01:18:40,640 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 2: and two adopted daughters.

1517
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:45,559
Speaker 3: You can't make this shit up.

1518
01:18:46,240 --> 01:18:48,960
Speaker 2: No, he kills himself using a dose of the same

1519
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:52,439
Speaker 2: medicine he gave his patients. Yeah, so PEO believe in

1520
01:18:52,479 --> 01:18:55,560
Speaker 2: flewed him in the death toll of DST.

1521
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 3: If this was a movie, you would be like, that's

1522
01:18:59,080 --> 01:18:59,679
Speaker 3: too much.

1523
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's too much. And he it's so fucked up.

1524
01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,360
Speaker 2: He he has like a he has a suicide note,

1525
01:19:07,479 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 2: right that he that he leaves in the car with him. Yeah,

1526
01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:14,640
Speaker 2: here's his suicide note. Always remember that the forces of

1527
01:19:14,640 --> 01:19:16,719
Speaker 2: evil are greater than the forces of good. I always

1528
01:19:16,760 --> 01:19:18,839
Speaker 2: tried to be a good doctor, and I think perhaps

1529
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:21,040
Speaker 2: I was. At the end of his note, he adds

1530
01:19:21,080 --> 01:19:24,920
Speaker 2: all of his degrees and qualifications. There's been there. He

1531
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 2: blames the Church of Scientology for everything with like, yeah,

1532
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 2: I mean they're not helping anything, but that isn't their fault. Man,

1533
01:19:30,280 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 2: They didn't start this. You did this?

1534
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 3: Did Scientology kill him?

1535
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,600
Speaker 2: No? No, no, he kills himself, uses the drugs that

1536
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 2: he had fucking done. He just blames Scientology for making

1537
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:44,120
Speaker 2: for ruining his reputation.

1538
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:48,439
Speaker 3: Which secretly but wait a minute, yeah, the fucking he

1539
01:19:48,520 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 3: writes his degrees.

1540
01:19:50,320 --> 01:19:53,200
Speaker 2: God, I'm crazy.

1541
01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:56,840
Speaker 3: I can't This man is insane. I can't believe I

1542
01:19:56,880 --> 01:20:00,439
Speaker 3: didn't know about this till right now. Deeply unwell wild,

1543
01:20:01,160 --> 01:20:02,559
Speaker 3: that is so crazy.

1544
01:20:03,479 --> 01:20:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, his death does help get wheels moving in the

1545
01:20:08,240 --> 01:20:11,799
Speaker 2: Australian government. In nineteen ninety eight, they issue a proper

1546
01:20:11,880 --> 01:20:16,400
Speaker 2: Royal Commission to investigate deep sleep therapy. The commissioner ultimately

1547
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:19,400
Speaker 2: concludes that all of the doctors involved with operating Chelmsworth

1548
01:20:19,400 --> 01:20:23,040
Speaker 2: had likely contributed some amount of fraud, obstruction of justice

1549
01:20:23,200 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 2: and negligence. Wow Bailey, though, was the spoke of the

1550
01:20:27,040 --> 01:20:30,080
Speaker 2: whole operation and the central figure without whom none of

1551
01:20:30,120 --> 01:20:33,559
Speaker 2: this would have happened. The New South Wales Parliament ultimately

1552
01:20:33,600 --> 01:20:36,839
Speaker 2: banned his treatment entirely, and a blizzard of reforms followed

1553
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:39,760
Speaker 2: governing how hospitals function and what practitioners are allowed to

1554
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:42,679
Speaker 2: do today. It's genuinely one of the most important cases

1555
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 2: in the history of Australia's mental health care system. Like

1556
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:47,120
Speaker 2: this does Yeah, and a lot of people argue it

1557
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:50,439
Speaker 2: doesn't do enough. As always, the reforms are imperfect, but

1558
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:54,439
Speaker 2: this does significantly alter the way in which like mental

1559
01:20:54,479 --> 01:20:59,599
Speaker 2: health therapy works in Australia. Wow. Wow, it's good shit,

1560
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:00,719
Speaker 2: it's good shit.

1561
01:21:01,360 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I keep using I keep saying that things are crazy,

1562
01:21:04,439 --> 01:21:06,680
Speaker 3: and I know people don't like that, but wow, this

1563
01:21:06,880 --> 01:21:13,600
Speaker 3: is this is like a perfect confluence of like ableism, misogyny,

1564
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:18,599
Speaker 3: like just like sexism, like uh huh uh a ego.

1565
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 3: Like it's just wow, wow wow, wow.

1566
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,639
Speaker 2: Wow, yep, yep, and it's it's even fucked up even

1567
01:21:24,640 --> 01:21:27,120
Speaker 2: at the end after they because the guy who writes,

1568
01:21:27,240 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 2: you know, the commission the report is very unsparing about

1569
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,760
Speaker 2: how bad Balliol was and the clinic was. But then

1570
01:21:33,800 --> 01:21:36,080
Speaker 2: at the end is like also none of them get

1571
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 2: none of the patients or victims get damages because like

1572
01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 2: it they waited too long to report anything. And all

1573
01:21:42,360 --> 01:21:44,880
Speaker 2: of these people pointed out, like, but actually immediately, a

1574
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:47,400
Speaker 2: bunch of us immediately reported stuff, and we're ignored and

1575
01:21:47,439 --> 01:21:50,200
Speaker 2: tried for years to report stuff and just kept being ignored.

1576
01:21:50,240 --> 01:21:52,200
Speaker 2: And he was like, well, yeah, but it's still your job.

1577
01:21:52,200 --> 01:21:54,280
Speaker 2: It's not the government's job. It's your job to make

1578
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 2: the government do stuff. So you actually didn't do work

1579
01:21:56,920 --> 01:21:58,920
Speaker 2: hard enough to try to make them stop this, so

1580
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:00,879
Speaker 2: you're not, you know, giving money.

1581
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:03,400
Speaker 3: Sorry, Yeah, I believe that government's love.

1582
01:22:03,479 --> 01:22:06,040
Speaker 2: It's cool. I love government.

1583
01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:10,880
Speaker 3: There are so many victims just beyond what you can

1584
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:11,760
Speaker 3: even name.

1585
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:15,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, yeah, but they're not They should have worked

1586
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:17,559
Speaker 2: harder to get the government to do something about this.

1587
01:22:18,280 --> 01:22:20,800
Speaker 3: I that is such a triggering word to me right now,

1588
01:22:22,160 --> 01:22:22,799
Speaker 3: to me right.

1589
01:22:22,640 --> 01:22:25,519
Speaker 2: Now fully and so fucked up.

1590
01:22:26,439 --> 01:22:29,439
Speaker 3: The level to which you like elect someone into office.

1591
01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 3: And then they go, you didn't do enough, No, get

1592
01:22:32,080 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 3: away from you.

1593
01:22:32,560 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 2: Yeah fu yeh. All right, well this is run long.

1594
01:22:36,760 --> 01:22:39,840
Speaker 2: Thank you Gabe for coming in and sitting down and

1595
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 2: listening to these horrible stories. You want to plug anything here?

1596
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:45,760
Speaker 3: Uh no, just uh just my podcast best Gabe ever,

1597
01:22:46,080 --> 01:22:49,519
Speaker 3: and my podcast A thousand Natural shocks and also the

1598
01:22:49,640 --> 01:22:52,640
Speaker 3: substack one thousand natural shocks dot substack dot com and

1599
01:22:52,680 --> 01:22:54,240
Speaker 3: thank you so much for having me like I'm such

1600
01:22:54,280 --> 01:22:56,040
Speaker 3: a big fan. This is so crazy.

1601
01:22:56,640 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being on and listeners until

1602
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:04,559
Speaker 2: next time. Remember there's no health consequences to eating your

1603
01:23:04,600 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 2: body weight and venzos every single day of your life,

1604
01:23:07,600 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 2: so just do that.

1605
01:23:09,360 --> 01:23:13,000
Speaker 1: Jesus Christ Robert, don't listen to him. Thank you so much.

1606
01:23:16,360 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1607
01:23:19,120 --> 01:23:22,320
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1608
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1609
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:28,960
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video

1610
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:31,679
Speaker 1: episodes that Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix,

1611
01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 1: dropping every Tuesday and Thursday. Remind me of Netflix. You

1612
01:23:35,040 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 1: don't miss an episode. For clips in our older episode catalog,

1613
01:23:38,600 --> 01:23:41,840
Speaker 1: continue to subscribe to our YouTube channel YouTube dot com

1614
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:45,840
Speaker 1: slash at behind the Bastards. We love about forty percent

1615
01:23:45,880 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 1: of you, statistically speaking,