1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and I'm Christian Seger, 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,119 Speaker 1: and we're picking up where we left off in the 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: last episode talking about farerald children, wild children, the acquisition 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: of language, and what language really is. Yeah, if you 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: didn't listen to the first episode yet, I suggests that 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: you go back and check it out. We talked about, 9 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, what exactly a feral child is, the differences 10 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: between wild children and abused children throughout history, but how 11 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: they show similar you know, cognitive difficulties, and then we 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,240 Speaker 1: gave examples of both you know, mythical stories of ferald children, 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: but then also documented cases of feral children throughout history, 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: leading us into this section where we're going to talk 15 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: about the brain, language, child development, how it all works, 16 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: and why feral children have been so important to a 17 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: lot of intellectuals throughout history. Yeah, I think it's really 18 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: important to it to realize what's at stake with language 19 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: and uh in any lapse in the ability to acquire language. Um, 20 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: because of course it's as we've discussed already, it's more 21 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: than a means of communicating ideas to one another. It's 22 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: it's an operating system for the brain, a key aspect 23 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: of what makes us human. Uh. And we can better 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: glimpse some of the wonders this involves. But and we 25 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: can better go in some of the wonders that are 26 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: involved in this by looking at the subtle differences among 27 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: the languages, differences that impact the way that we process 28 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: the passage of time, the nature of reality. Absolutely. Uh. 29 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: If you're a regular Radio Lab listener, and I know 30 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: a number of our listeners also listen to that show, 31 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: then you've probably heard why Isn't the Sky blue? Uh? 32 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 1: An episode in which linguist Guy Deuscher discusses the case 33 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: for a gray sky world, you know, asking that question, 34 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: do we only come to see the sky as blue? 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 1: And of course blue is a quite rare color in 36 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: the natural world, and we see very few examples of 37 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: a really truly blue organisms. So do we see the 38 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: sky is blue only because we use our language to 39 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: describe it as such? Or is it truly blue? And 40 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: he makes a compelling case that it's not really blue, 41 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: it's more of a gray, and just by using the 42 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: words to describe it, thus we see it does we 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: change it. Yeah, Well, I was talking to you a 44 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: little bit about this before we recorded the podcast. I 45 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: grew up overseas, and when I was a teenager, I 46 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,200 Speaker 1: learned Mandarin. I've since forgotten a huge chunk of it. Um, 47 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: but my experience as a kid growing up knowing English 48 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: and then also learning Mandarin side by side was that 49 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: it very much. There's a very different thought process that 50 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: goes on with Mandarin thinking compared to English thinking. And 51 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,519 Speaker 1: I think that this is a perfect example. I don't 52 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: know that necessarily that that that, um, those who speak 53 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: Mandarin see the sky any differently than we do, but 54 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: I'm sure that there are certain cultural aspects that go 55 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: along with that difference in language, that difference in understanding. Yeah, 56 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: there's a compelling argument to be made. I think that 57 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: the language isn't just about communicating, but it's also it's 58 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: about how we use the brain. It's how we Again, 59 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: it comes back to that that software hardware analogy. That 60 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: language is the way in which we use our brains 61 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: to think. Yeah and yeah, especially like you hear, often 62 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: people who are learning a second language sort of describe 63 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: feel that they are fluent in the language itself. Once 64 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: they've started thinking in that language, right, once they've been 65 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: exposed to it enough and immersed in it that they're 66 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: thinking thoughts in that language. M one one easy area 67 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: to look at here again just to really, you know, 68 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: bring up, bring home what's at stake with language and 69 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: languge acquisition and how important it is. UM. Language is 70 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: different wildly in the way that they encode time, and 71 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: this has an effect on the manner in which we 72 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: process and think about the passage of time, and really 73 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: on the very nature of history, be it larger history 74 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: or personal history. UM. In two thousand thirteen, Yale Universities 75 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: M Keith chin He presented an hypothesis that languages UH 76 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: that grammatically associate the future and the present tend to 77 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: foster future oriented behavior and UH. I found this to 78 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: be a rather rather rather interesting theory UH and involves 79 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: what linguists call future time reference or f TR. And 80 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: it turns out there's quite a lot of variety. Yeah, 81 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,679 Speaker 1: I know from my experience studying communications in school that 82 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 1: there is a lot of attention paid to how we 83 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: understand time and different cultures, regardless of language, even UM 84 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: in in defining how those cultures exist together and apart 85 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: and how cross cultural communication works. So you may be 86 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: speaking the same language, we could all be speaking English, 87 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 1: but we'd have a different understanding of what near means 88 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: or future means, past means. Like European tongues alone tend 89 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 1: to have a range from a tendency to rarely distinguish 90 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: present and future time, such as Finnish apparently too languages 91 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 1: like French which have uh separate and obligatory future forms 92 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: of verbs. So you have weak FDR again future time 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 1: reference and strong FTR languages. And according to Chin, weak 94 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: FTR speakers may perceive future events as less distance less 95 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: distant um. The example that he ends up using is 96 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: that if a German speaker tells you that it's going 97 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: to rain tomorrow, essentially he or she is saying tomorrow 98 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: it is raining, as opposed to just in English, where 99 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 1: we say tomorrow it will rain. So in a sense, 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: the future is already happening to the German language speaker. Yeah, 101 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: and in effect you're again you get cross cultural communication 102 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: confusion from this, right, like like what is the definition 103 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: of raining? Or when? Linguistic distinctions may also lead to 104 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: more precise beliefs UH and studies have found that languages 105 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: with more precise basic color terms caused the speaker to 106 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: hold more precise color beliefs. So languages tend to process 107 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: anywhere from from two to eleven basic colors. UM. Black, white, 108 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: and red are pretty much a given, but several languages 109 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 1: refer to yellow, green, and blue with one basic color term. Uh. 110 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: In many languages lack a basic word for purple, pink, orange, 111 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: or gray. I wonder how much that has to do 112 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: with different types of color blindness throughout cultures. I know 113 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: that we did an episode on color blindness and how 114 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: it works for brain Stuff video show here at how 115 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: Stuff works, and there's different types of color blindness. I 116 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: learned from that. You know, you can have I think 117 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: it's like red, green, color blind this, and then there's 118 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 1: other distinctions. So I wonder if that has something to 119 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: do with it. It might there. Um, I don't believe 120 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: this is actually the same Radio Lab episode referred to earlier. 121 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: They talked about the Odyssey, about some of the colors 122 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: that are lacking from descriptions in Homer's the Odyssey, meaning 123 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: some to theorize that that interesting. Um, Now with the 124 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: blue example we were talking, I mean the color example 125 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: we were talking about earlier when in linguistics, Um, the 126 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: take home here seems to be that it means that 127 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: language influences our ability to comprehend the world around us, 128 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: to organize it, and to define us. And one curious 129 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: example here is that in Russian there's a strong distinction 130 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: between light blue, which is glow boy, I believe, in 131 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: dark blue, which is sin in sinny. I'm saying that wrong, 132 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: but sinny, I believe. And Russian speakers therefore tend to 133 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: perform better in tests distinguishing different shades of blue. So 134 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: the language is more specific, and therefore they're understanding the 135 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: ability to to see it is more specific as well. 136 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: I wonder if you can then see a difference in uh, 137 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: the aesthetics or possibly like graphic design of those different 138 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: cultures based on like, you know, like, for instance, if 139 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: blues or so important in Russia, I wonder if you 140 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: tend to see a lot more mixtures of different shades 141 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: or hues of blue. Uh, it's like that, Um, oh God, 142 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: what is it? What is it? Alaskan Inuit that they 143 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: have different words right, Um, when you go to like 144 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 1: home depot or whatever to buy the paints for your home, 145 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: there's like, you know, twenty different types of white basically 146 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: or off white or egg shell or whatever. They they 147 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: have all kinds of bizarre names that they come up 148 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: with for them having done graphic design before. I mean, 149 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: I used to reference the Pantone color booklet all the time. 150 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: There's like a five hundred different colors in there alone. 151 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: It definitely makes me want to pay more to the 152 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 1: next time I'm looking at any kind of Russian visual media, 153 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: be it a movie or art, to see if if 154 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 1: they're more blue, is they're more blue or maybe I 155 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: won't even be able to appreciate it as well as 156 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: a Russian language speaker based on my ability to distinguish 157 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 1: the blue. Yeah, absolutely, So okay, let's use that as 158 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: a basis. Then to step back for a second and 159 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: bring this back to feral children. Okay, So consider like 160 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 1: that we're using this example of that Russian has so 161 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: many distinctions between blues that we as English speakers may 162 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,960 Speaker 1: not even be able to comprehend them. Right, That's a simple, 163 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: small thing that is probably small enough that we could 164 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: get past it an intercultural communication. If you're a feral child, however, 165 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: and you haven't learned any language, and you haven't been 166 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: able to comprehend any of these things. You have no 167 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: comprehension of blue at all, what blue is, what color is? Even? Right? Then, 168 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: imagine how difficult it is to process cognitively the world 169 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: around you. Like you said before, language how we organize 170 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: and define the world around us. Our culture is how 171 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 1: we understand the world in a way. The world is 172 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,439 Speaker 1: so complex and there's so much coming at us at 173 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: all times, right sensory wise, that we need that we 174 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: need to be able to define that and put it 175 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: into boxes or else we go crazy. Yeah, I mean, 176 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: we'll come back to this one in a minute. But 177 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: just imagine perceiving the world around you and not knowing 178 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 1: there are names for things, like not knowing the names 179 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: of anything. You know. It's at times we kind of 180 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: is language bearing individuals. We kind of like to experiment 181 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: with that. We kind of like to occasionally like steer 182 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: out in the forest and not categorize everything. And there 183 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: could be something refreshing in that. But imagine, and it's 184 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: so difficult to do it. Imagine just not knowing the 185 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: names of anything you're looking at. I would even go 186 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: a step further. I I would hypothesize that it's possible 187 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: that some feral children possibly don't know the difference between 188 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: themselves and the external world. Imagine that. Yeah, because language 189 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: enables us to play with all these different concepts, and 190 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: any of them are crucial concepts to knowing what we 191 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: are on a very basic existential level. Yeah. H Now 192 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: another example that comes up, and perhaps you can speak 193 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: to this one a little bit. Since um, we've given 194 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 1: your background with the Mandarin, but the concept of time 195 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: in Chinese languages, not not only Mandarin, but other other 196 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: dialects as well. I understand, um and their use of 197 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: their or their their the lack of tents, right. Yeah, 198 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: I remember that that was a difficult part in learning 199 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: Mandarin when I because I came to it when I 200 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: was probably fourteen years old. Um. And I think like 201 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: the optimal time for learning a new language is something 202 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 1: like before your ten or something like that. Um, but yeah, 203 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: I do remember this. It's it's significantly different. Yeah. And 204 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: I've seen some linguists argue that it may contribute to 205 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: the importance of ancestors and kept Chinese culture because it 206 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: it on on on one level, it means that your 207 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: ancestors are still in the present because of the tents 208 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: that is used to refer to them again in the 209 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: same way that for the German it's already raining even 210 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: though it's raining tomorrow. For the Chinese language speaker, the 211 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: the ancestor is not dead. The ancestor is still alive 212 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: in the past. Yeah, that's interesting. I never considered that. 213 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: I guess when I was living overseas and speaking Chinese, 214 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: I wasn't. I wasn't interacting with religious culture all that much, 215 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: especially in terms of like how they regarded their ancestors. 216 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: It was more like, you know, I was at the 217 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: level where they were teaching us, like here's how to 218 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: buy things in a star or something like that. But um, yeah, 219 00:12:50,559 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: I think that that has some plausibility to it. Now 220 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: here's another aspect of language that that I tend not 221 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 1: to think think about all that much either of But 222 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: it was explored in a piece for Ian magazine titled 223 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: The Sun Does Not Rise by Andrew Crummy, and the 224 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 1: pointed out that we have a lot of magical notions 225 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: about how the world works, uh, and they're essentially fossilized 226 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: within our own language. Explained further. Yes, So, um, I'll 227 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: just read a quote from this article. But because I 228 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: believe this, uh, this strives at home the principle of 229 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: eternal folly offers a somewhat different picture. In place of 230 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: history scene is a progression of steps on a ladder. 231 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: We could instead imagine something more stratified, rather like the 232 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: escarpments of the Wield of Kent that Charles Darwin wrote 233 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: about so eloquently. We envisage a cliff face exposed by erosion. 234 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: Our own age is the topmost layer, but presented to 235 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: us are the remains of every preceding age, and we 236 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: are at liberty to pluck out buried fossils if we 237 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: choose so that it mainly brings up two keys amples. Here, 238 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: we still say that the sun rises, though of course 239 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: it doesn't rise. The earth rotates. But we're well, we're 240 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 1: linguistically shackled to this outdated model of solar mechanics. Likewise, 241 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: do you still might someone say talk about how they 242 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: cast their gaze over something or or some various uh 243 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: you know, turn of phrase that means the same thing, 244 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: when in fact we know that rays enter our eyes. 245 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: There's not like this magic laser beam that shoots of 246 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: cyclops wise and bounces off the thing we're looking to 247 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: add and then come comes back. Yeah, that's interesting. I'd 248 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: take this a step further. I wonder if he's slought 249 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: about this before. I saw a presentation on UM software 250 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: and desktop design before, and basically the person presenting was like, 251 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: why do we still pretend that our computers are desks. 252 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: You've got folders and trash cans and and there's even 253 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: pencils and note pads and all of that, right, Like, 254 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: we're acting like it's a desk. They're all metaphors. And 255 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: we're so far along now that and so used to 256 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: digital technology that shouldn't we be using something else other 257 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 1: than these tangible metaphors. Yeah. I think that's a great example, 258 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: and it does drive down to the fact that, you know, 259 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: the language we used to describe something, even even though 260 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: our our understanding of that thing has updated significantly, we're 261 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: still describing it in an all outdated way, and in 262 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: a sense, we're processing in it in that way too. 263 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: So even if you say the sun rises, like you 264 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: still kind of you kind of have this this dual 265 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: belief system in play, where on one level it is 266 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: literally rising, and then while you still know in the 267 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: back of your head that there's a more complicated orbital 268 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: situation going on there. It's it's This is another perfect 269 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: example of culture making the world easier to understand for 270 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: the human mind. Right, Like, if you try to comprehend 271 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: what's actually going on with the sun on the scale 272 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: that it's going on with, you can't do it. Our 273 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: human brain just can't do it processing all those things 274 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: that are happening with it and our relative we were 275 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 1: talking earlier about, uh, your son and and uh, you know, 276 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: understanding as a child the differences in space and time. Right, 277 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 1: imagine trying to understand your human existence on this huge 278 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 1: rock in relationship to this even huger ball of fire 279 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: and how they're rotating all around in this vast space. Right, 280 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: we can't do it. So it's much easier for us 281 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: to say it rises. Yeah. And I found myself in 282 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: the exact situation with him, um, months and months ago 283 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: and maybe a year ago. I'm standing on the beach, 284 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, where you can clearly see the sun come 285 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: up and then later you can see it go down, 286 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: and he's asking, how what's going on? How is it working? 287 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: And I want to be able to explain something more 288 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,640 Speaker 1: nuanced to him, but I end up saying, well, you know, 289 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 1: the sun comes up and then it goes down, and 290 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 1: then it goes under. Yeah, And that's like you have 291 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: to have a starting point exactly. Yeah. And and then 292 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: from there on out maybe you know you can you 293 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: can as he acquired more language skills and syntax to 294 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: be able to you know, use it to form new 295 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: ideas for new words, transform his understanding than you can. 296 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: And I say that thing I said earlier, Daddy was lying, 297 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: U men to protect you from the crushing insignificance human 298 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: life faces when we stare at the sun and understand 299 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: it the cosmic unimportant. So obviously language does does more 300 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: than that. Which a couple of examples here just to 301 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: show you a little more the little complicated nuances that 302 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 1: are going on under the surface. Um, but you know 303 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: everything I mean, human culture, technology, the the advance of science, 304 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: like all of these things stem from language. Yeah. And 305 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, the language and culture 306 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 1: also they not only define what we know, but they 307 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: define how we know what we know. And I know 308 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: that's this is way too deep of a topic for 309 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: us to go down into now. But like ideas of 310 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 1: post structuralism and language and uh postmodernism combined together, you know, basically. 311 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: And I think it was like the late seventies, especially 312 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: in France, that these ideas were coming about. That just 313 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: our very understanding of knowledge itself is dependent on language 314 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: and dependent on that is constructing limits into our understanding again, 315 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: or else we'd go mad. All Right, we're gonna take 316 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna 317 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: look at a couple of other examples that they give 318 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: us a some some more to chew on here with language, 319 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: or we're gonna look at at at a very primitive 320 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: language that lacks abstraction, fiction and myth um and uh 321 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: in a possible view at what adult life might consist 322 00:18:50,680 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: of without language. All Right, we're back. You know. I 323 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 1: read a book a few years back, China m Elvil's novels. 324 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: I have read this bookuse a huge China miel fan, 325 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: and that's a great book that I was really impressed 326 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 1: with it. It was very very serious for the most part, 327 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: but but it explored some linguistic themes. Yeah, he's a 328 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 1: really smart science fiction fantasy writer in how he plays 329 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 1: around with how language defines things for us. Yeah, that's 330 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: a very meta book. Yeah, that one in particular dealt 331 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: with interactions between humans and an alien species with severe 332 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: cognitive and linguistic limitations on its ability to lie. So 333 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of like that Ricky Gervais movie about 334 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: the invention of lying um, except played seriously in a 335 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,679 Speaker 1: sci fi environment where you know, what, what does it 336 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: mean when you know you're a bill reality to communicate 337 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: with this other being? Uh, And it's the ability to 338 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: process the world with its language, like it doesn't understand 339 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: the concept of lying. There's some other sci fi ideas 340 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: that are thrown around and there about like there's one 341 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: alien species that's just mentioned that it like communicates through vomiting, 342 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,280 Speaker 1: I think, And and there's a you know, one of 343 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: the central species in the book. For humans to communicate, 344 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 1: you have to have like two individuals that are kind 345 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: of like nearly sinked so that they can seeing a 346 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 1: chorus of their communication in a way that the alien 347 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: can understand it. But when I read it, it got 348 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: me to wondering, you know, is it possible within human 349 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: language that there there are any human language systems where 350 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: lying doesn't exist? And as far as I can tell, 351 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 1: the lying is pretty much everywhere in some form. But 352 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: there is this interesting tongue known as Paraha, uh that 353 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: the Faraha people of the Amazon speak, and it provides 354 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: uh some interesting food for thought on you know, on 355 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: the what what is it like to have a language 356 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,399 Speaker 1: that is a little more limited. A lot of this 357 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: comes from a two thousand seven New Yorker article titled 358 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 1: the interpreter Um. We can just do a quick rundown 359 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: of some of the more astounding attributes of the language. Okay, 360 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 1: so in this definition of Paraha, one of the first 361 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,959 Speaker 1: things that we know is that it's based on merely 362 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: eight consonants and three vowels. There's a complex array of tones, stresses, 363 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: and syllable lengths, and the speakers can drop the vowels 364 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: and consonants and instead use singing, humming, and whistling. That's interesting. Yeah, 365 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: that reminds there's a recent thing that came out about 366 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: whistling Turkish. Yeah, there's like a version of Turkish that 367 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: is whistled for long distance communication. But it's it's different 368 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: enough from Turkish to wherever you're a Turkish language speaking, 369 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: even a native Turkish speaker, if you're unfamiliar with whistled Turkish. 370 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: You're not going to understand it. Yeah, huh, okay uh. 371 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: And this paraha also contains no numbers or a system 372 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,399 Speaker 1: of counting. So imagine what we were talking about earlier 373 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,520 Speaker 1: with regards to time. Probably impacts their culture significantly. Yeah, 374 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: they used the simplest pronoun inventory known and they have 375 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: a lack of any relative tenses or any individual or 376 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,640 Speaker 1: collective memory more than two generations past. So again, look 377 00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: at that. That's just alone. How not using numbers can 378 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 1: impact you. Yeah, they have that. They can't understand anything 379 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: that they didn't actually experience, probably right. Yeah, they have 380 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: no drawings or art, they lack they lack color words, 381 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: and this one's interesting. They lack creation, myths and fiction, 382 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: which is kind of close to the inability to lie. Mhmm. Interesting. 383 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 1: So in the in this this particular New Yorker piece, 384 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: they they draw out that you know that there's an 385 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: isolated people and they within a hunter gatherer world of 386 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,560 Speaker 1: the here and now. So it's a it's a world 387 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: without abstraction. If they're talking about something, or if they're 388 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: paying it much heed, then that thing is right in 389 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: front of them to see, to smell, to taste, to touch, 390 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: you know, there's there's no hey guys, they just saw 391 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,640 Speaker 1: five flowers. Uh, they must have been created by a god, 392 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: and so they merely say, hey, check out these flowers. Here. 393 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: They are right before us. There's no worrying about where 394 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: they are in time and space because they are right here. 395 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,479 Speaker 1: So I'm really curious. Did this piece in The New 396 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,719 Speaker 1: Yorker get into how the interaction with the Western world 397 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: affected them or their language or their culture, Like just 398 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: by being there the journalist was influencing their language. Yeah, 399 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: I mean they I don't think they got into it 400 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: much in that piece. Uh, but I mean they're gonna 401 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: be some concepts that they just don't get as much, 402 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: um like uh, Like here's an example. They mentioned that 403 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 1: for the Paraha people, when someone walks around have been 404 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 1: in the in the river. That person has not simply 405 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: gone away, but they have gone of existence. So so 406 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 1: I mean their understanding of the world, their linguistic processing 407 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: of the world is so different from you know, from 408 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: English speakers, that there are certain concepts are gonna be 409 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: difficult to pass back and forth. They're gonna be concepts 410 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: are gonna be difficult for them to assimilate. So again, 411 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: like let's let's think about this in terms of the 412 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: feral children that we were talking about before. Right, Uh, 413 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: this sounds completely alien to me, trying to think about 414 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: living a world, living in a world where there's no fiction. 415 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: I don't know that I could do that, But imagine 416 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 1: not even not even having words to understand anything, not 417 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: even having the capacity to understand where you begin and 418 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 1: the rest of the world ends. Yeah, it's uh, it 419 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 1: reminds me a bit too. Um. We talked about innumate 420 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: language systems a bit earlier about words for snow. I 421 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: remember reading about Innuit people's that that referred to distance 422 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 1: in terms of time, right, Yeah, like if you saw it, 423 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: you can see tremendous distance in this particular area, if 424 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: I remember correctly, its long, flat areas. But it's about 425 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 1: like to look through a telescope is to look into 426 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: the future, which is kind of act that, especially because 427 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: like I think this is a fairly American concept that, Yeah, 428 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: we use miles to measure long distances, but for the 429 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: most part, when we're talking about miles, we're talking about 430 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: how far you can travel or how long you can 431 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: travel in that period of time. Right, So, rather when 432 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: somebody says to me, how far away is Woodstock, Georgia. 433 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: I say forty minutes. Yeah, yeah, rather that I think, 434 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: I think about things like that for the most part. Yeah. Well, 435 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: you know another thing that this makes me think about 436 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: is animals. Right, So, like we're getting to the core 437 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: of this argument about you know, feral children. What's the 438 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: different between a human being and an animal. Like we 439 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: said earlier, animals aren't technically learning language. Some of them 440 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 1: understand simply use My dog understands when I say sit, 441 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 1: it sits right. Um, that doesn't mean that he has 442 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: the capacity for language. But at the same time, my 443 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 1: dog has an understanding of the world that is more 444 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: complex than it sounds like these some of these feral 445 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: children have. Yeah, because at least the dog has had 446 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: the chance to come of age in an environment, you know, 447 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: like and it's I don't know if your dog, your 448 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: dog gets to go outside, he does any socializes right, 449 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: not only with uh, my family and other human beings, 450 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: but with other dogs too, So that this is a 451 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 1: key component here too for the feral children. Right, it's 452 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: not just about language, it's about the socialization part. Yeah, 453 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: they're not getting too so they're having extremely limited socialization 454 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: with any humans and then virtually no socialization with children 455 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 1: their own age. Like, what would happen to an animal 456 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: if you took it away from its its a family, 457 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: put it in a room and didn't interact with it 458 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: for four years. Well, you're talking about an inside cat. 459 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: They go crazy and they're Unfortunately I have to interact 460 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: with my inside cat. Yeah. Yeah, she basically just tries 461 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: to writ my face open. Yeah. And you know, we 462 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: wonder why they're crazy the outside and we do that 463 00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: because we love them so much. But it's a twisted 464 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: relationship we have for babies. Um. Now there's a there's 465 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: another interesting case that that has been been studied that 466 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,160 Speaker 1: that answers some of our questions about about about what 467 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: it is like to live without language. And this comes 468 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: from author Susan Shaler's work Uh, dealing with a deaf 469 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 1: Mexican immigrant who grew up in a house with hearing 470 00:27:56,480 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: parents who could not teach him sign language m H 471 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 1: and uh. Again, she discusses this in her book, and 472 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: I think this has been She's also made the rounds 473 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: on radio shows in the past, so she was on 474 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 1: radio labs. She may have been on this American life. 475 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: So a number of you are probably familiar with this case. 476 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: But the man in question, who she referred to as 477 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:22,479 Speaker 1: ed Alfonso, was he wasn't avoid of human intelligence obviously, uh, 478 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: and he developed an interesting survival tactic. The one that 479 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,959 Speaker 1: that proved problematic when she was trying to teach him, 480 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: and that was mimicry. Like he would would see people talking, 481 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: but he couldn't hear the sound. He didn't even know 482 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,600 Speaker 1: what sound was, so he would mimic the movements of 483 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: the mouth. So in a lot of ways, that's like 484 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: when when they try to teach some animals language, like chimpanzees, 485 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: even though I'm assuming these chimpanzees aren't definitely they're teaching them, 486 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: but there that's how they start off by mimicking what 487 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: they're what they're taught. Interesting, yeah, and so that proved 488 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: problematic when she was trying to teach him sign language. 489 00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: But and it was long, frustrating work, but she finally 490 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: achieved a break through when she was able to teach 491 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: him that things have names like that was the first 492 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: big breakthrough that he learned that all these things I'm 493 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: seeing in the world around me they have names, they 494 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: have there's a symbolic UH system that I can refer 495 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: to to say what that is? Yeah, and I'm assuming 496 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: he was of adult age by this time. Yea, yeah, 497 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: so he uh, you know, he end up you know, 498 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: acquiring a sign language made it a huge difference to him. 499 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: But she continued to always have trouble like trying to 500 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: draw out from him what it was like to live 501 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: without language because he was you know, he had a 502 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: lot of shame about it. He referred to it as 503 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: a dark time. Uh, and now he was out of 504 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: that darkness and didn't want to dwell on it. But 505 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: think about it too, we don't have the capacity in 506 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: written into our language in order to be able to 507 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 1: describe what life is like without language. So even once 508 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: you've taught it to him, he's he would have difficulty 509 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: explaining it. Yeah, that's the thing, like how do you 510 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: use language to describe the complete absence of language? So um, 511 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 1: this gets into all of this ultimately leads to two 512 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: models that we have for for the for how language 513 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: and cognition uh deal with each other. There's the language 514 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 1: first model and this essentially this model opposits that cognition 515 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: emerges from language, and that without language, our cognitive development 516 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 1: is severely inhibited. Um. It also posits that people's cognitive 517 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: abilities are tied to its language, and this is the 518 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: window model that we were sort of talking about her. Yeah, 519 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: I feel like this is the model that pretty much 520 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: everything we've been talking about lines of with the thought 521 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: first argument suggests that language merely expresses thought and is 522 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: not a preret prerequisite. But this would require a language 523 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: of thought to underlie language itself. So this would kind 524 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: of tie it with Chomsky's earlier arguments back in the 525 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: seventy you have a universal language, Yeah, but this would 526 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: involve their being like essentially a universal sub language that 527 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,280 Speaker 1: exists beneath the language, and then our acquisition of language 528 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: is based on this. But again that that doesn't really 529 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 1: line up with with the cases we've been looking at, 530 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: perhaps in terms of evidence. Yeah, this all right, Maybe 531 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: I'm going down the wrong way with us, but bear 532 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: with me. Language of thought, So that sounds like telepathy 533 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: to me. So like if you never experience if you 534 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 1: were part of an alien species that didn't have mouths, 535 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: but you were telepathic and you could speak to one 536 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: another that way. Yeah, it makes me think of a 537 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: fiction really, like how where you'll have a book where 538 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: you'll have the main character thinks eloquently, but you know, 539 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,360 Speaker 1: talks poorly, you know, but which works within a you know, 540 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: within a within literature. I'm not so sure that it 541 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: works as a model for human cognition. Yeah, or didn't 542 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: write exactly that in real life? Are people with limited 543 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: language capacity? Do they still have complex thought processes or 544 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: vice versa? Yeah? And then what is it like to 545 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: have a complex thought without language? Yeah, totally, Yeah, I 546 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: think that I'm inclined to lean towards the language first models. 547 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: Then Yeah, same here for now, just based on the evidence. 548 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: But I think it would be intriguing. You know, Chomsky's 549 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 1: idea is interesting, interesting enough that it lasted for four decades. Uh, 550 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: but it's just it hasn't been proven. Yeah, I would 551 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: be interested to see a thought first argument with with 552 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: a lot of data to back it up, like to 553 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: see what what what? What data are they looking at? 554 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: Clearly not not the cases that that we looked at 555 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: in this episode so much, but but maybe there is 556 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: a more compelling case to be made when you look 557 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: at their body of evidence, and certainly in the case 558 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: of feral children, the thought first argument doesn't seem to 559 00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: play out right, all right, So there you have it. Well, language, Uh, 560 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: it's it's power, it's importance, and some of the nuances 561 00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: across our our very human languages that that I think 562 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: helps to to drive home just how powerful and essential 563 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: language is. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, like I've said 564 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: in in other episodes that we've done, you know, we're 565 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: not exactly experts on this. I did go to school 566 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: for communication studies, but I was not specifically focused on 567 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 1: language development, which many people do focus in, uh and 568 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: spend their entire careers in. So I would if you're 569 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: one of those people out there and you have opinions 570 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: on this, or you've got something that you can share 571 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,360 Speaker 1: with us that we could maybe you know, add to 572 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: a listener mail episode down the road, or maybe correct 573 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: something that we've said here today, I'd love to hear 574 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: from you. So you can get us in contact with 575 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: us on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, and Tumbler, 576 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: and on all of those platforms we are blow the mind. Yeah, 577 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 1: and certainly, um, if there we'd love to cover more 578 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: linguistic topics. So if there are other you know, the 579 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: other related material you want to bring to light get 580 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 1: in touch with us, and in the meantime, go to 581 00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind dot com, where you'll find 582 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: all the podcast episodes all the way back to the 583 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 1: beginning of time, as well as videos and blog post 584 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,319 Speaker 1: and one other way that you can get in touch 585 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: with us is by direct email the old fashioned way, 586 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: well not exactly, but you can write to us at 587 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 1: blow the Mind at how stuff works dot com. 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