1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:21,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I grew up in southwestern Ontario, farming country, in 2 00:00:21,996 --> 00:00:25,476 Speaker 1: a place called Waterloo County. Waterloo County is home to 3 00:00:25,516 --> 00:00:27,996 Speaker 1: one of the largest populations of Mennonites in the world. 4 00:00:28,596 --> 00:00:31,036 Speaker 1: I grew up among Mennonites, went to school with them. 5 00:00:31,556 --> 00:00:35,676 Speaker 1: They're Anabaptists, which is one of the oldest Protestant denominations. 6 00:00:36,076 --> 00:00:40,196 Speaker 1: Mennonites are small in number, industrious, close knit. Came to 7 00:00:40,236 --> 00:00:43,396 Speaker 1: North America after they were persecuted in Russia. The joke 8 00:00:43,556 --> 00:00:46,876 Speaker 1: is they're basically Jews who farm. So I went home 9 00:00:46,916 --> 00:00:49,596 Speaker 1: to see my parents not long ago, and everyone was 10 00:00:49,636 --> 00:00:52,836 Speaker 1: talking about something online called an Open Letter to my 11 00:00:52,916 --> 00:00:56,716 Speaker 1: beloved church. It's a long letter touching on family and 12 00:00:56,716 --> 00:01:01,196 Speaker 1: devotion and faith in scripture. A Mennonite pastor wrote it, actually, 13 00:01:01,196 --> 00:01:04,396 Speaker 1: I should say an ex Mennonite pastor, a man named 14 00:01:04,476 --> 00:01:07,636 Speaker 1: Chester Wanger. I read the letter and I was so 15 00:01:07,836 --> 00:01:10,316 Speaker 1: taken by it that I went to see him, drove 16 00:01:10,436 --> 00:01:12,996 Speaker 1: four and a half hours on one cold January day. 17 00:01:13,396 --> 00:01:17,476 Speaker 2: Oh my, just every day three four or five people say, oh, 18 00:01:17,556 --> 00:01:19,676 Speaker 2: we just like your letter. We like your letter, we 19 00:01:19,796 --> 00:01:20,356 Speaker 2: like your letter. 20 00:01:20,716 --> 00:01:22,796 Speaker 1: The letter has been read more than two hundred and 21 00:01:22,836 --> 00:01:26,196 Speaker 1: thirty thousand times on Mennonite dot org. To put that 22 00:01:26,236 --> 00:01:29,076 Speaker 1: in perspective, there were only eight hundred thousand mena nits 23 00:01:29,076 --> 00:01:32,076 Speaker 1: in North America. It's been liked and shared all over 24 00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:36,716 Speaker 1: Facebook hashtag Chester Wenger is a thing. I asked Wenger 25 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:39,276 Speaker 1: if he anticipated any of his words going viral. 26 00:01:40,356 --> 00:01:43,276 Speaker 2: I didn't even know it. Didn't even know what viral meant. 27 00:01:44,076 --> 00:01:48,716 Speaker 2: The letter went virals. What does that mean? It's like 28 00:01:48,756 --> 00:01:52,916 Speaker 2: a virus. It just read. I was shocked. 29 00:01:56,796 --> 00:02:01,116 Speaker 1: My name is Malcolm Gladwell. This is Revisionist History, my 30 00:02:01,316 --> 00:02:07,916 Speaker 1: podcast about things misunderstood and overlooked. This week's episode is 31 00:02:07,956 --> 00:02:12,316 Speaker 1: about Chester Wenger and about an idea called generous orthodoxy. 32 00:02:17,716 --> 00:02:22,236 Speaker 1: That phrase generous orthodoxy comes from a theologian named Hans Fry. 33 00:02:23,036 --> 00:02:24,036 Speaker 1: It's an oxymoron. 34 00:02:24,116 --> 00:02:24,516 Speaker 3: Of course. 35 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:28,636 Speaker 1: To be orthodox is to be committed to tradition. To 36 00:02:28,676 --> 00:02:31,476 Speaker 1: be generous, as Frida fines, it is to be open 37 00:02:31,516 --> 00:02:34,476 Speaker 1: to change. But Fri I thought the best way to 38 00:02:34,476 --> 00:02:37,716 Speaker 1: live our lives was to find the middle ground. Because 39 00:02:37,876 --> 00:02:43,956 Speaker 1: orthodoxy without generosity leads to blindness, and generosity without orthodoxy 40 00:02:44,356 --> 00:02:48,076 Speaker 1: is shallow and empty. One of the hardest things in 41 00:02:48,116 --> 00:02:51,276 Speaker 1: the world is to find that balance. Not just for 42 00:02:51,316 --> 00:02:54,596 Speaker 1: those pursuing a life of faith, but for anyone interested 43 00:02:54,796 --> 00:02:58,596 Speaker 1: in making their world better. I think Chester Wenger shows 44 00:02:58,676 --> 00:02:59,156 Speaker 1: us the way. 45 00:03:04,196 --> 00:03:07,236 Speaker 2: I wanted to study Bible, and I got the first 46 00:03:07,276 --> 00:03:09,596 Speaker 2: the best of arts, and then I got a Bachelor 47 00:03:09,636 --> 00:03:13,036 Speaker 2: of Theology. I was very interested in getting all the 48 00:03:13,076 --> 00:03:13,956 Speaker 2: training I could. 49 00:03:14,356 --> 00:03:18,356 Speaker 1: Wenger lives in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, another man of night Enclave, 50 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:21,516 Speaker 1: in a little house just off the turnpike, where he 51 00:03:21,556 --> 00:03:24,116 Speaker 1: and his wife, Sarah Jane brought up their eight children. 52 00:03:24,996 --> 00:03:29,196 Speaker 1: Wenger has a barrel chest, straight back, real handshake, big 53 00:03:29,236 --> 00:03:31,716 Speaker 1: head of white hair. He looks a little like a 54 00:03:31,756 --> 00:03:36,436 Speaker 1: cross between Colonel Sanders and an NFL linebacker. He's ninety 55 00:03:36,476 --> 00:03:39,236 Speaker 1: eight years old. This is the part of the evening 56 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:41,916 Speaker 1: that I remember the most. The very end of several 57 00:03:41,916 --> 00:03:44,796 Speaker 1: hours in his tiny living room. It nearly brought me 58 00:03:44,836 --> 00:03:46,476 Speaker 1: to tears. 59 00:03:46,116 --> 00:03:51,196 Speaker 2: As I thought I wanted to read from Romans. It's 60 00:03:51,316 --> 00:03:56,676 Speaker 2: very familiar, for I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of 61 00:03:56,796 --> 00:04:01,476 Speaker 2: Christ Jesus. It is the power of God for salvation 62 00:04:01,676 --> 00:04:06,756 Speaker 2: to everyone who has faith. Notice how broad that is. 63 00:04:09,396 --> 00:04:11,916 Speaker 1: Let me start with a few more words about Mennonites, 64 00:04:12,516 --> 00:04:15,396 Speaker 1: because what Wanger did makes no sense unless you understand 65 00:04:15,396 --> 00:04:19,356 Speaker 1: the world that he inhabits. The theologian Palm Rebcker has 66 00:04:19,396 --> 00:04:23,076 Speaker 1: a lovely phrase to describe the Mennonite way. Jesus is 67 00:04:23,076 --> 00:04:26,316 Speaker 1: the center of our faith. Community is the center of 68 00:04:26,356 --> 00:04:31,436 Speaker 1: our lives. Reconciliation is the center of our work. It's 69 00:04:31,436 --> 00:04:34,356 Speaker 1: hard to explain to an outsider how seriously the Mennonites 70 00:04:34,436 --> 00:04:39,996 Speaker 1: take these three things Jesus, community, and reconciliation. They don't 71 00:04:40,116 --> 00:04:43,676 Speaker 1: use the word community, for example, in the metaphorical way 72 00:04:43,876 --> 00:04:46,196 Speaker 1: like most of us. Do you know, I'm a member 73 00:04:46,236 --> 00:04:50,996 Speaker 1: of the journalist community. To Mennonite's community is a much 74 00:04:51,036 --> 00:04:55,076 Speaker 1: more serious thing. Listen to my friend Jim Laptisin, who's 75 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:55,996 Speaker 1: a Mennonite pastor. 76 00:04:57,316 --> 00:05:01,316 Speaker 4: In my dad's church growing up, it was very strict. 77 00:05:01,516 --> 00:05:03,556 Speaker 4: He told me at one point that if people didn't 78 00:05:03,556 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 4: believe you were a given ten percent of your income 79 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:06,636 Speaker 4: to the church, they had the right to audit your books. 80 00:05:06,676 --> 00:05:10,756 Speaker 4: And he said that without any recrimination or any condemnation, 81 00:05:11,396 --> 00:05:12,956 Speaker 4: and even a bit of humor. He was like, and 82 00:05:12,996 --> 00:05:14,876 Speaker 4: so my books got out, and twice by his good 83 00:05:14,876 --> 00:05:16,196 Speaker 4: friend and neighbor up their own. 84 00:05:16,836 --> 00:05:20,116 Speaker 1: How on earth? But did that conversation happen. The treasurer 85 00:05:20,156 --> 00:05:22,276 Speaker 1: came to him and said, we don't think you're giving enough. 86 00:05:23,196 --> 00:05:26,556 Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I have a really high view of the church, 87 00:05:27,516 --> 00:05:29,796 Speaker 4: and you know you speak on behalf of the church. 88 00:05:29,876 --> 00:05:32,036 Speaker 4: And we've all submitted to this, so it's not like 89 00:05:32,076 --> 00:05:34,716 Speaker 4: I'm submitting to something that you haven't. So we're all 90 00:05:34,756 --> 00:05:36,876 Speaker 4: in us together, yeah, and we're all trying to be 91 00:05:36,876 --> 00:05:38,076 Speaker 4: as faithful as we can be. 92 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:41,556 Speaker 1: That business of auditing each other's books, that's from fifty 93 00:05:41,636 --> 00:05:44,716 Speaker 1: or sixty years ago, a different era. But I think 94 00:05:44,756 --> 00:05:47,196 Speaker 1: it gives you a flavor of what Mennonites mean when 95 00:05:47,196 --> 00:05:50,796 Speaker 1: they say we're all in this together. When I was 96 00:05:50,796 --> 00:05:53,556 Speaker 1: a kid, just after we moved to Canada from England, 97 00:05:53,876 --> 00:05:55,996 Speaker 1: we heard about a barn raising not far from us. 98 00:05:56,516 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 1: When a Mennonite farmer's barn burns down, the people from 99 00:05:59,516 --> 00:06:02,356 Speaker 1: church gather as soon as they can bring food and 100 00:06:02,396 --> 00:06:05,396 Speaker 1: building materials and anything else to replace what was lost, 101 00:06:05,596 --> 00:06:08,316 Speaker 1: and they build a new barn. Frame it up one day, 102 00:06:08,676 --> 00:06:12,916 Speaker 1: put it up the next. My parents were Presbyterians, but 103 00:06:12,916 --> 00:06:16,596 Speaker 1: my father found the idea of a barn raising incredibly impressive, 104 00:06:17,396 --> 00:06:18,276 Speaker 1: so he crashed it. 105 00:06:19,156 --> 00:06:19,596 Speaker 5: You have to. 106 00:06:19,556 --> 00:06:22,476 Speaker 1: Understand that these are what were called Old Order Mennonites, 107 00:06:22,716 --> 00:06:25,716 Speaker 1: like the Amish. They drove horses and buggies and lived 108 00:06:25,676 --> 00:06:29,316 Speaker 1: without electricity. My dad was a college professor in a 109 00:06:29,396 --> 00:06:32,596 Speaker 1: rusty Puusia with an impenetrable English accent and a shirt 110 00:06:32,596 --> 00:06:35,876 Speaker 1: and a tie. They'd never seen him or anything like 111 00:06:35,956 --> 00:06:39,396 Speaker 1: him before. They just put him to work, no questions asked. 112 00:06:39,836 --> 00:06:43,516 Speaker 1: We're all in this together. Eventually my parents would join 113 00:06:43,556 --> 00:06:46,476 Speaker 1: the Mennonite Church, and my brother would marry a Mennonite pastor. 114 00:06:46,676 --> 00:06:50,276 Speaker 1: And I suspect that sense of community is why there's 115 00:06:50,316 --> 00:06:54,956 Speaker 1: something beautiful about that kind of belonging. One more Mennonite 116 00:06:54,996 --> 00:06:58,396 Speaker 1: story from my friend Jim Leftisen. This might even be 117 00:06:58,476 --> 00:07:01,836 Speaker 1: the quintessential Mennonite story. About a guy who buys a 118 00:07:01,876 --> 00:07:04,596 Speaker 1: house from another Mennonite whom, of course, he trusted. 119 00:07:04,916 --> 00:07:06,916 Speaker 4: He bought the house and find out that in fact 120 00:07:06,956 --> 00:07:09,276 Speaker 4: he'd been light to so. On either side of this 121 00:07:09,356 --> 00:07:15,636 Speaker 4: man two men from a Mennonite church. One of them 122 00:07:15,716 --> 00:07:17,876 Speaker 4: said to him, did he tell you that the septic 123 00:07:17,916 --> 00:07:21,356 Speaker 4: system was in good shape? And he said yes he did, 124 00:07:22,156 --> 00:07:23,676 Speaker 4: and he said you have to fix it. He said, yeah, 125 00:07:23,676 --> 00:07:25,556 Speaker 4: I have to replace it completely. Was twelve thousand dollars 126 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:26,036 Speaker 4: or something. 127 00:07:26,236 --> 00:07:28,956 Speaker 1: The septic system, one of the most expensive things in 128 00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:29,396 Speaker 1: a house. 129 00:07:29,676 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 4: He said, well, here's four thousand dollars for that. What 130 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:33,916 Speaker 4: he did wasn't right, and he goes to our church 131 00:07:33,996 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 4: and the guy on the other side said, dumb, I'll 132 00:07:37,996 --> 00:07:40,396 Speaker 4: pay whatever he didn't pay, so they together covered it. 133 00:07:40,396 --> 00:07:42,956 Speaker 4: He said, he goes to our church, and that isn't right. 134 00:07:43,516 --> 00:07:46,996 Speaker 1: This is the world Chester Wenger in habits. He's squarely 135 00:07:47,116 --> 00:07:49,596 Speaker 1: in the middle of it. Wenger's father was one of 136 00:07:49,636 --> 00:07:53,956 Speaker 1: the founders of a big Mennonite seminary in Virginia. His daughter, Sarah, 137 00:07:54,196 --> 00:07:57,316 Speaker 1: is the president of the Big Mennonite Seminary in Elkhart, Indiana. 138 00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:01,036 Speaker 1: Wenger lived seventeen years in Ethiopia, where he helped to 139 00:08:01,116 --> 00:08:03,636 Speaker 1: found and build what is now the largest Mennonite church 140 00:08:03,676 --> 00:08:06,436 Speaker 1: in the world. To Deep Ties, Deep Ties, you guys 141 00:08:06,476 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: are Mennonite royalty. Basically in Hans Frey's terms. Wenger is 142 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:17,836 Speaker 1: an Orthodox Manolone, a member of the Blossom Hill Congregation 143 00:08:17,916 --> 00:08:28,836 Speaker 1: in Lancaster. But there's another side to him. Mennonites come 144 00:08:28,876 --> 00:08:31,956 Speaker 1: in all kinds of shapes and sizes. My parents' church 145 00:08:31,956 --> 00:08:35,276 Speaker 1: in Ontario was pretty liberal, full of college professors and 146 00:08:35,356 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: software engineers and teachers. My mom and her best friend 147 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:42,036 Speaker 1: Lorraine were doing feminist retreats back in the seventies. But 148 00:08:42,236 --> 00:08:46,316 Speaker 1: Lancaster County, where Wenger is from, is much more conservative. 149 00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:49,556 Speaker 1: The Mennonites there didn't accept women as our dained ministers 150 00:08:49,636 --> 00:08:52,076 Speaker 1: until a couple of years ago, and that was something 151 00:08:52,076 --> 00:08:57,076 Speaker 1: that Wenger struggled with because he's not just orthodox, he's generous. 152 00:08:57,676 --> 00:09:00,716 Speaker 1: He's open to the world. He spent ten years as 153 00:09:00,756 --> 00:09:03,476 Speaker 1: pastor of Blossom Hill in the nineteen eighties, so when 154 00:09:03,476 --> 00:09:06,596 Speaker 1: it came to the prohibition against female pastors, Wenger would 155 00:09:06,636 --> 00:09:09,636 Speaker 1: do what kind of workaround. The rules said women could 156 00:09:09,676 --> 00:09:13,276 Speaker 1: not be ordained as ministers, meaning they couldn't be formally 157 00:09:13,396 --> 00:09:16,996 Speaker 1: recognized as church leaders, but they could still talk on 158 00:09:17,116 --> 00:09:17,796 Speaker 1: Sunday morning. 159 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:21,596 Speaker 2: Right, I used women in the pulpit that weren't ordained. 160 00:09:22,876 --> 00:09:26,396 Speaker 2: I preach, and then next Sunday I'd have this woman preach, 161 00:09:27,036 --> 00:09:30,316 Speaker 2: and then I'd have my wife preach. I didn't want 162 00:09:30,356 --> 00:09:31,196 Speaker 2: to do all the preaching. 163 00:09:31,516 --> 00:09:37,076 Speaker 1: Would if no one questions your loyalty, you can get 164 00:09:37,076 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: away with that kind of subversion. Chester Wenger walked that 165 00:09:40,796 --> 00:09:46,236 Speaker 1: fine line orthodox but also generous. Until one day, Chester 166 00:09:46,356 --> 00:09:49,476 Speaker 1: Sun Philip comes to him, and the line becomes almost 167 00:09:49,516 --> 00:09:50,636 Speaker 1: impossible to walk. 168 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:50,996 Speaker 2: It all. 169 00:09:56,636 --> 00:10:02,956 Speaker 6: Growing up, I had no awareness of homosexuality anywhere. I 170 00:10:02,956 --> 00:10:07,276 Speaker 6: remember somewhere along the line, maybe when I was early 171 00:10:07,356 --> 00:10:13,156 Speaker 6: adolescence it I talked about a cousin of mine, but 172 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:14,676 Speaker 6: I didn't know what they were. 173 00:10:14,556 --> 00:10:18,316 Speaker 1: Talking about, the question of whether someone might be gay 174 00:10:18,556 --> 00:10:21,636 Speaker 1: simply never occurred to him. And it goes without saying 175 00:10:21,756 --> 00:10:24,276 Speaker 1: that a community that did not permit the ordination of 176 00:10:24,316 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 1: women until quite recently did not have progressive views on homosexuality. 177 00:10:29,516 --> 00:10:32,636 Speaker 1: But one day Phil pulled his father aside. What did 178 00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:33,196 Speaker 1: he tell you? 179 00:10:34,156 --> 00:10:38,196 Speaker 2: I don't know the words he used, but I understood 180 00:10:38,196 --> 00:10:42,716 Speaker 2: that he had attraction for males instead of females. 181 00:10:43,036 --> 00:10:49,716 Speaker 7: And I said, maybe you can outgrow this, and so 182 00:10:49,756 --> 00:10:52,316 Speaker 7: that's where that's where we left it. And about a 183 00:10:52,436 --> 00:10:55,676 Speaker 7: year later he came back and said, Dad, I haven't 184 00:10:55,676 --> 00:10:59,316 Speaker 7: outgrown it. And so we had this. 185 00:11:00,916 --> 00:11:05,236 Speaker 2: Awareness that he's that's who he is. 186 00:11:06,276 --> 00:11:09,676 Speaker 1: So Phil goes off to college, he comes home, he 187 00:11:09,756 --> 00:11:11,196 Speaker 1: brings up the subject again. 188 00:11:11,556 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 8: And I came to him and I explained to him 189 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:16,996 Speaker 8: ten minutes before I was going to drive back to 190 00:11:17,036 --> 00:11:17,956 Speaker 8: college in Virginia. 191 00:11:18,516 --> 00:11:20,876 Speaker 1: That's Phil. He's in the room with me and Chester 192 00:11:21,436 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: sitting across from his father. 193 00:11:23,716 --> 00:11:27,116 Speaker 8: That dad, this is for real. I'm going to identify 194 00:11:27,156 --> 00:11:29,836 Speaker 8: as being gay. I'm going to tell other people I'm gay. 195 00:11:30,036 --> 00:11:33,516 Speaker 8: I'm going to date other guys. And you know, you're 196 00:11:33,556 --> 00:11:34,756 Speaker 8: going to have to get used to this. 197 00:11:37,036 --> 00:11:40,636 Speaker 1: As word got out in Lancaster, the consequences were immediate. 198 00:11:41,676 --> 00:11:43,876 Speaker 1: Phil had a job with the church. He lost it. 199 00:11:44,556 --> 00:11:46,796 Speaker 1: He was instructed to come in and confess his sins. 200 00:11:47,236 --> 00:11:50,436 Speaker 1: He refused. Chester Wanger had a position in the Midda 201 00:11:50,516 --> 00:11:53,796 Speaker 1: Night administration in Lancaster at the time, and attended a 202 00:11:53,796 --> 00:11:57,596 Speaker 1: local Meddonite church One Sunday morning. The pastor got up 203 00:11:57,636 --> 00:11:58,596 Speaker 1: and made an announcement. 204 00:11:58,916 --> 00:12:01,476 Speaker 2: He just read off in church one day that Phil 205 00:12:01,516 --> 00:12:04,756 Speaker 2: Winger is no longer a member of our congregation. And 206 00:12:05,596 --> 00:12:09,236 Speaker 2: we didn't know it. He didn't approach you first know 207 00:12:09,316 --> 00:12:13,716 Speaker 2: that he was doing that, and Phil hadn't had contact 208 00:12:13,716 --> 00:12:17,036 Speaker 2: with him either or him with Phil, and I couldn't 209 00:12:17,076 --> 00:12:18,356 Speaker 2: believe it. 210 00:12:18,356 --> 00:12:21,636 Speaker 8: It was illilateral and I wasn't part of the conversation, 211 00:12:21,836 --> 00:12:23,956 Speaker 8: and the deed was already done, and at that point 212 00:12:23,996 --> 00:12:28,396 Speaker 8: my faith had pretty much diminished. To next to nothing, 213 00:12:28,756 --> 00:12:31,556 Speaker 8: and I was going to proceed with a life outside 214 00:12:31,956 --> 00:12:33,556 Speaker 8: the traditional church community. 215 00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 1: Think about this through Chester Wenger's eyes. He can accept 216 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:41,836 Speaker 1: his son's sexuality, but his own church, the church to 217 00:12:41,876 --> 00:12:44,716 Speaker 1: which he has been loyal all his life, that church 218 00:12:44,756 --> 00:12:48,116 Speaker 1: has now cast his son out. His orthodoxy is in 219 00:12:48,196 --> 00:12:51,796 Speaker 1: conflict with his generosity, and his son is caught in 220 00:12:51,796 --> 00:12:55,476 Speaker 1: the middle. Can you imagine not just the pain, but 221 00:12:55,556 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 1: the guilt. He gave his life to a church that 222 00:12:58,236 --> 00:13:01,196 Speaker 1: said we're all in this together, and now that church 223 00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:02,516 Speaker 1: has split his family in two. 224 00:13:03,236 --> 00:13:07,756 Speaker 2: I always told Phil that your faith is most important 225 00:13:07,796 --> 00:13:13,596 Speaker 2: to me. Don't give up the faith in Jesus. 226 00:13:16,876 --> 00:13:19,996 Speaker 1: Phil went on to start a successful restaurant business. At 227 00:13:19,996 --> 00:13:22,516 Speaker 1: one point, some years ago, he goes back to his 228 00:13:22,596 --> 00:13:25,836 Speaker 1: high school reunion and there some of his old classmates 229 00:13:25,876 --> 00:13:28,116 Speaker 1: confront him and tell him they would never eat at 230 00:13:28,116 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 1: one of his restaurants. Phil tells his mother. 231 00:13:31,996 --> 00:13:35,236 Speaker 2: And you told her all this, and she said to you, 232 00:13:36,236 --> 00:13:38,556 Speaker 2: don't give up on Jesus. 233 00:13:40,556 --> 00:13:44,116 Speaker 1: He's sitting in his chair straight back ninety eight years old, 234 00:13:44,476 --> 00:13:48,356 Speaker 1: Colonel Sanders meets a linebacker, a man of God, and 235 00:13:48,436 --> 00:13:51,996 Speaker 1: as Chester Wenger talks about that moment years ago, when 236 00:13:52,036 --> 00:13:54,756 Speaker 1: he worried that his son's soul was in jeopardy. He 237 00:13:54,796 --> 00:13:55,316 Speaker 1: starts to. 238 00:13:55,276 --> 00:14:00,796 Speaker 9: Weep, and I guess there was no expression at that 239 00:14:00,956 --> 00:14:04,396 Speaker 9: point particularly, But as he went to go out the door, 240 00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:06,716 Speaker 9: he gave. 241 00:14:06,556 --> 00:14:07,636 Speaker 3: A broad swap. 242 00:14:09,276 --> 00:14:14,876 Speaker 2: Test to testified, don't give up what Jesus, and he 243 00:14:15,116 --> 00:14:21,196 Speaker 2: seemed to accept it with a smile. And that test 244 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:22,076 Speaker 2: tests very deeply. 245 00:14:28,396 --> 00:14:31,316 Speaker 1: At the beginning of this story, I said that balancing 246 00:14:31,396 --> 00:14:34,956 Speaker 1: loyalty and conscience is just about the hardest thing to do. 247 00:14:36,036 --> 00:14:39,116 Speaker 1: Let me give you another example. It's not as wrenching 248 00:14:39,156 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 1: as Chester Wenger's story, but it gets at some of 249 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:51,356 Speaker 1: the same issues. It's from Princeton University, one of the 250 00:14:51,356 --> 00:14:53,596 Speaker 1: schools that's been swept up in the recent wave of 251 00:14:53,636 --> 00:14:58,076 Speaker 1: campus unrest. The controversy is over Woodrow Wilson, who was 252 00:14:58,196 --> 00:15:00,756 Speaker 1: president of Princeton from nineteen oh two to nineteen ten, 253 00:15:01,076 --> 00:15:03,636 Speaker 1: and of course, later went on to serve two terms 254 00:15:03,636 --> 00:15:06,796 Speaker 1: as President of the United States. Princeton named one of 255 00:15:06,796 --> 00:15:10,356 Speaker 1: his most prestigious graduate schools after him, the Wilson School 256 00:15:10,396 --> 00:15:14,916 Speaker 1: of Public and International Affairs. Wilson did many remarkable and 257 00:15:14,996 --> 00:15:17,396 Speaker 1: important things as the head of Princeton and later as 258 00:15:17,436 --> 00:15:21,636 Speaker 1: president but he was a racist, and not a mild one, 259 00:15:21,996 --> 00:15:24,796 Speaker 1: a kind of nasty one. So in the fall of 260 00:15:24,876 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, activists at the school staged a thirty two 261 00:15:28,556 --> 00:15:31,716 Speaker 1: hours sitting in the office of the Princeton president. They 262 00:15:31,756 --> 00:15:33,236 Speaker 1: want Wilson's name off. 263 00:15:33,236 --> 00:15:38,236 Speaker 10: The graduate schoolerpetuated in ideology that has led to the 264 00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:41,476 Speaker 10: continuous shut aside of black people in this country. 265 00:15:41,556 --> 00:15:46,516 Speaker 3: He is a murderer. We all have nothing. This university everything. 266 00:15:50,516 --> 00:15:53,476 Speaker 1: Jacob Smith, one of my producers, talked to one of 267 00:15:53,476 --> 00:15:58,036 Speaker 1: the protesters, a sophomore named will Glory Tanjohn. The promise 268 00:15:58,076 --> 00:16:01,036 Speaker 1: of Princeton, she argues, is that all its students will 269 00:16:01,076 --> 00:16:05,316 Speaker 1: feel at home. This campus is for you. But everywhere 270 00:16:05,316 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 1: she goes, she sees pictures of Wilson. 271 00:16:08,116 --> 00:16:12,076 Speaker 10: Everywhere in the most random places, there are rooms that 272 00:16:12,156 --> 00:16:15,796 Speaker 10: have just all these huge photos of this white man 273 00:16:15,876 --> 00:16:18,596 Speaker 10: peering down on you. Right, So when you see these 274 00:16:18,676 --> 00:16:20,356 Speaker 10: kind of things, you really feel like, what was this 275 00:16:20,476 --> 00:16:22,956 Speaker 10: university meant for me? Or is it still really meant 276 00:16:22,996 --> 00:16:24,236 Speaker 10: for white men? 277 00:16:25,796 --> 00:16:28,516 Speaker 1: Now? I happen to agree with Tanjohn. How do you 278 00:16:28,556 --> 00:16:31,556 Speaker 1: think Princeton became one of the wealthiest universities in the world. 279 00:16:32,276 --> 00:16:35,236 Speaker 1: The place is ground zero for rich white guys. Just 280 00:16:35,316 --> 00:16:40,236 Speaker 1: walk around campus. There's the carl Icon Laboratory. That's Carl Icon, 281 00:16:40,356 --> 00:16:44,916 Speaker 1: rich white male, corporate raider billionaire. There's the Frick Chemistry Laboratory. 282 00:16:45,116 --> 00:16:49,676 Speaker 1: That's Henry Clay Frick, white male robber baron. The Firestone 283 00:16:49,716 --> 00:16:53,076 Speaker 1: Library that's the rich white guy who started Firestone Tires. 284 00:16:53,476 --> 00:16:56,996 Speaker 1: The Bezos Center for Neural Circuit Dynamics, you know, the 285 00:16:57,076 --> 00:17:00,276 Speaker 1: rich white guy who founded Amazon. Look over there, it's 286 00:17:00,316 --> 00:17:03,036 Speaker 1: the Lewis Center for the Arts. That's Peter Lewis, the 287 00:17:03,076 --> 00:17:06,956 Speaker 1: white guy who started Progressive Insurance. The John Scully Center 288 00:17:06,996 --> 00:17:10,316 Speaker 1: for the Neuroscience of Mind and Behavior. Scully a rich 289 00:17:10,356 --> 00:17:12,716 Speaker 1: white guy. Not to be confused, by the way, with 290 00:17:12,796 --> 00:17:15,316 Speaker 1: the other John Scully, a rich white guy who used 291 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:18,556 Speaker 1: to run Apple. This is the even richer John Scully 292 00:17:18,556 --> 00:17:21,756 Speaker 1: who manages billions of dollars on Wall Street. Do I 293 00:17:21,796 --> 00:17:25,716 Speaker 1: need to go on Rockefeller Hall, richest white guy ever. 294 00:17:27,476 --> 00:17:31,796 Speaker 1: Of course, there's also Emma B. Bloomberg Hall. Emma Bloomberg 295 00:17:32,156 --> 00:17:35,396 Speaker 1: not a white guy, except wait, she's the daughter of 296 00:17:35,476 --> 00:17:39,596 Speaker 1: Michael Bloomberg. Super super like forty three billion dollar rich 297 00:17:39,636 --> 00:17:44,636 Speaker 1: white guy. They don't hide their identities at Princeton. They 298 00:17:44,636 --> 00:17:50,956 Speaker 1: put their identities on every single building on campus. A 299 00:17:50,996 --> 00:17:53,116 Speaker 1: few weeks after the students sit in, there was a 300 00:17:53,156 --> 00:17:56,156 Speaker 1: town hall meeting on the Princeton campus to discuss whether 301 00:17:56,236 --> 00:17:58,196 Speaker 1: or not to change the name of the Wilson School. 302 00:17:58,676 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 10: I really hope that people really think about why we 303 00:18:01,316 --> 00:18:04,516 Speaker 10: are so tied to this name, like what really changes 304 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:05,556 Speaker 10: if we change the name. 305 00:18:06,036 --> 00:18:08,836 Speaker 1: It was held at the Richardson Auditorium, lots of dark 306 00:18:08,876 --> 00:18:12,196 Speaker 1: wood in stone tapestries on the wall. By the way, 307 00:18:12,436 --> 00:18:15,556 Speaker 1: a building named in honor of David B. Richardson, class 308 00:18:15,556 --> 00:18:19,436 Speaker 1: of thirty three, usefully described in the Princeton promotional literature 309 00:18:19,636 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 1: as a quote lifelong enthusiast of classical music and a 310 00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: successful lawyer and investor. Another rich white guy. Think about it, 311 00:18:28,436 --> 00:18:32,076 Speaker 1: Princeton literally could not find a single place to discuss 312 00:18:32,116 --> 00:18:34,876 Speaker 1: the troubled legacy of a rich white guy that was 313 00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:38,156 Speaker 1: not named after a rich white guy. Here's the first 314 00:18:38,156 --> 00:18:39,276 Speaker 1: guy who gets up to speak. 315 00:18:39,556 --> 00:18:44,556 Speaker 11: I'm Harvey Rothberg, class of the great class of nineteen 316 00:18:44,716 --> 00:18:50,276 Speaker 11: forty nine. I absolutely believe that the name of Woodrow 317 00:18:50,276 --> 00:18:54,436 Speaker 11: Wilson should be preserved at the head of the School 318 00:18:54,436 --> 00:18:57,276 Speaker 11: of Public and International Affairs. 319 00:18:57,116 --> 00:19:00,636 Speaker 1: Rothberg says it's important that everyone know who Wilson was 320 00:19:01,036 --> 00:19:01,956 Speaker 1: and what the man did. 321 00:19:02,356 --> 00:19:08,356 Speaker 11: There could be a memorial plaque, engraved in bronze and 322 00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:12,836 Speaker 11: so on, which would detail in a short paragraph his 323 00:19:12,956 --> 00:19:16,836 Speaker 11: great achievements as president of this university, and in a 324 00:19:16,876 --> 00:19:22,596 Speaker 11: second paragraph his great achievements as president of the United 325 00:19:22,636 --> 00:19:27,996 Speaker 11: States and on the international scene as well. But there 326 00:19:27,996 --> 00:19:33,356 Speaker 11: could also be a final paragraph, a short one, which 327 00:19:33,396 --> 00:19:40,156 Speaker 11: would say something like Wilson's prejudiced views on racial matters 328 00:19:40,716 --> 00:19:45,116 Speaker 11: were undoubtedly influenced and shaped by his background and his 329 00:19:45,196 --> 00:19:48,556 Speaker 11: growing up in the post bellum South. 330 00:19:49,716 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: Then another alum gets up and he agrees. 331 00:19:52,796 --> 00:19:53,556 Speaker 11: He's a giant. 332 00:19:53,796 --> 00:19:57,396 Speaker 5: You can't just take his name off of schools or colleges. 333 00:19:57,476 --> 00:20:00,036 Speaker 5: We have to keep them. All people are flawed. 334 00:20:00,676 --> 00:20:03,516 Speaker 1: He also likes the plack idea. But this speaker has 335 00:20:03,556 --> 00:20:06,236 Speaker 1: a quibble with a short paragraph about prejudice. 336 00:20:06,516 --> 00:20:10,996 Speaker 5: I think it can't just say Wilson was influenced by 337 00:20:11,116 --> 00:20:16,676 Speaker 5: the prevailing more a's of the time, because a man 338 00:20:16,756 --> 00:20:20,276 Speaker 5: of his stature should have seen beyond that. And I 339 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:24,236 Speaker 5: think some of the platforms to acknowledge that real harm 340 00:20:24,396 --> 00:20:25,716 Speaker 5: was caused to real people. 341 00:20:29,876 --> 00:20:32,396 Speaker 1: This is what the protesters are up against. I mean, 342 00:20:32,716 --> 00:20:36,916 Speaker 1: can you believe these guys. When Wilson took office as president, 343 00:20:37,196 --> 00:20:40,676 Speaker 1: the Federal Civil Service was one of the only institutions 344 00:20:40,676 --> 00:20:44,556 Speaker 1: in Washington that was integrated. Blacks had jobs next to whites. 345 00:20:45,236 --> 00:20:48,676 Speaker 1: One of the first things Wilson does is reverse that policy. 346 00:20:49,236 --> 00:20:52,036 Speaker 1: Lots of black federal workers get fired, and it becomes 347 00:20:52,116 --> 00:20:54,916 Speaker 1: really hard for educated African Americans to get a job 348 00:20:54,956 --> 00:20:58,356 Speaker 1: in Washington. And when a delegation of black professionals comes 349 00:20:58,356 --> 00:21:00,836 Speaker 1: to him to complain, you know what he says to them. 350 00:21:01,556 --> 00:21:05,116 Speaker 1: Segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit and ought 351 00:21:05,156 --> 00:21:09,596 Speaker 1: to be so regarded by you, gentlemen. This is the 352 00:21:09,636 --> 00:21:13,116 Speaker 1: guy Princeton venerates. And the thing that the first two 353 00:21:13,156 --> 00:21:16,596 Speaker 1: speakers are arguing about is the wording of the last 354 00:21:16,676 --> 00:21:19,276 Speaker 1: paragraph of the plaque. They want to put up the 355 00:21:19,316 --> 00:21:22,796 Speaker 1: plaque as if the whole controversy were really just an 356 00:21:22,796 --> 00:21:27,436 Speaker 1: exercise in improving signage. For goodness sake, take the man's 357 00:21:27,596 --> 00:21:31,236 Speaker 1: name down. If you don't want to change the schools stationary, 358 00:21:31,676 --> 00:21:34,756 Speaker 1: just choose another Wilson. There are lots of Wilson's out 359 00:21:34,756 --> 00:21:39,396 Speaker 1: there who don't hate black people. Jackie Rita Russell flip 360 00:21:39,676 --> 00:21:43,076 Speaker 1: rebel Owen, how about the Owen Wilson School of Public 361 00:21:43,076 --> 00:21:47,116 Speaker 1: and International Affairs. But the only way people like this 362 00:21:47,316 --> 00:21:49,636 Speaker 1: are going to listen to the protesters is if they 363 00:21:49,676 --> 00:21:54,196 Speaker 1: think the protesters care about Princeton, care about Princeton the 364 00:21:54,236 --> 00:21:58,516 Speaker 1: way it is. They'll accept generosity only if it comes 365 00:21:58,596 --> 00:22:03,476 Speaker 1: with some orthodoxy. They want some acknowledgment that the protesters 366 00:22:03,556 --> 00:22:07,556 Speaker 1: appreciate what they've been given, some concession that the rich 367 00:22:07,596 --> 00:22:11,236 Speaker 1: white guys who make them so uncomfortable also made it 368 00:22:11,276 --> 00:22:14,516 Speaker 1: possible for them to attend a school that looks like Versailles, 369 00:22:14,916 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 1: if Versailles, by some accident of history, had been built 370 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:21,916 Speaker 1: not outside of Paris, but between Trenton and Newark, New Jersey. 371 00:22:22,516 --> 00:22:24,076 Speaker 1: But instead, what do they hear? 372 00:22:24,676 --> 00:22:27,076 Speaker 3: This university owes us everything. 373 00:22:27,436 --> 00:22:29,716 Speaker 12: I walked around on this campus understanding that this was 374 00:22:29,716 --> 00:22:32,036 Speaker 12: built on the backs of my people, and I owe 375 00:22:32,076 --> 00:22:33,676 Speaker 12: none of you guys anything. 376 00:22:33,716 --> 00:22:37,116 Speaker 3: We owe white people nothing, and not for the for 377 00:22:37,236 --> 00:22:38,476 Speaker 3: the evilness and. 378 00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:40,796 Speaker 12: A white hatred in this country, we would not have 379 00:22:40,916 --> 00:22:42,516 Speaker 12: to be fighting for our rights. 380 00:22:42,956 --> 00:22:46,476 Speaker 3: All of this is mine. My people built this place. 381 00:22:47,276 --> 00:22:51,476 Speaker 1: She's angry, she's passionate. Maybe right now she regrets her 382 00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:54,236 Speaker 1: choice of words when I was an angry young student 383 00:22:54,236 --> 00:22:57,196 Speaker 1: a generation ago. I ended up regretting my words. But 384 00:22:57,276 --> 00:23:01,076 Speaker 1: I went to school before every emotional outburst got immortalized 385 00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:05,076 Speaker 1: on YouTube, and those words are what every crotchety old 386 00:23:05,076 --> 00:23:08,716 Speaker 1: Princeton alum heard when they went online. All of this 387 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:11,916 Speaker 1: is mine. How do you think they felt when they 388 00:23:11,956 --> 00:23:14,036 Speaker 1: heard that or some version of this. 389 00:23:15,156 --> 00:23:17,356 Speaker 10: I don't feel welcomes when you walk on this campus 390 00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:19,676 Speaker 10: and you see the name of POJOA. Wilson on the 391 00:23:19,756 --> 00:23:22,236 Speaker 10: graduate building, right will. 392 00:23:22,036 --> 00:23:25,876 Speaker 1: Glory Tanjohn complaining about the privileged white guys peering down 393 00:23:25,916 --> 00:23:29,316 Speaker 1: on her. But she chose to go to Princeton Ground 394 00:23:29,396 --> 00:23:32,356 Speaker 1: zero for the privileged white guy. It's not like the 395 00:23:32,396 --> 00:23:34,836 Speaker 1: school covered over the names on those buildings when she 396 00:23:34,876 --> 00:23:38,316 Speaker 1: came for her campus visit. She's basically saying that the 397 00:23:38,316 --> 00:23:41,836 Speaker 1: school I chose to attend, the school that makes no 398 00:23:41,876 --> 00:23:44,596 Speaker 1: attempt to hide what it is and what it stands for, 399 00:23:45,156 --> 00:23:47,916 Speaker 1: is not I suddenly realize a place that makes me 400 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:52,396 Speaker 1: feel comfortable, and so I want to change it. These 401 00:23:52,436 --> 00:24:00,076 Speaker 1: are not arguments that are going to convince anyone. I 402 00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:02,836 Speaker 1: don't need to tell you what happens after a decent 403 00:24:02,876 --> 00:24:06,636 Speaker 1: interval A few months later, the Wilson Legacy Review Committee 404 00:24:06,636 --> 00:24:09,396 Speaker 1: comes out with the university's decision. The head of the 405 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:11,756 Speaker 1: committee says, at the end of the day, what we 406 00:24:11,836 --> 00:24:15,276 Speaker 1: learned was that Wilson was a complicated and flawed individual. 407 00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:18,756 Speaker 1: But when you look at the pluses and minuses, we 408 00:24:18,876 --> 00:24:21,396 Speaker 1: didn't feel that the minuses were enough to eliminate his 409 00:24:21,516 --> 00:24:29,516 Speaker 1: name a whitewash. Here's what the protesters should have done. Instead, 410 00:24:30,236 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 1: they should have said, Wilson's name makes us so uncomfortable 411 00:24:34,396 --> 00:24:37,836 Speaker 1: that we're not coming back next semester unless you change it, 412 00:24:38,516 --> 00:24:42,716 Speaker 1: and we're going to tell other perspective Princeton students, minority 413 00:24:42,716 --> 00:24:46,476 Speaker 1: and otherwise to do the same. Instead of talking about 414 00:24:46,516 --> 00:24:49,596 Speaker 1: what they were owed by Princeton, they should have talked 415 00:24:49,596 --> 00:24:52,196 Speaker 1: about what they were willing to give up for Princeton. 416 00:24:53,036 --> 00:24:55,396 Speaker 1: I am willing to give up my position at the 417 00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:58,236 Speaker 1: New Jersey Versailles in order to make the school a 418 00:24:58,276 --> 00:25:03,276 Speaker 1: better place. That's how much I care about Princeton. Generosity 419 00:25:03,676 --> 00:25:10,316 Speaker 1: mixed with orthodoxy, Now would that have worked idea? But 420 00:25:10,396 --> 00:25:14,076 Speaker 1: the best and brightest standing up and saying I'm giving 421 00:25:14,156 --> 00:25:17,276 Speaker 1: up my place at one of the world's great universities 422 00:25:17,596 --> 00:25:20,716 Speaker 1: in order to save it from itself. Certainly has a 423 00:25:20,756 --> 00:25:24,636 Speaker 1: better shot than a sleepover in the president's office. Yes, 424 00:25:24,956 --> 00:25:27,436 Speaker 1: it would have been a costly strategy. It would have 425 00:25:27,556 --> 00:25:33,236 Speaker 1: required a real sacrifice. That's why generous orthodoxy is so hard. 426 00:25:43,756 --> 00:25:46,516 Speaker 1: When he was twenty nine, Phil Wenger fell in love 427 00:25:46,516 --> 00:25:49,716 Speaker 1: with a man named Steve. They'd been together ever since. 428 00:25:50,476 --> 00:25:54,156 Speaker 1: Then about ten years ago, Gene Robinson became the first 429 00:25:54,236 --> 00:25:57,676 Speaker 1: openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church, and Phil and 430 00:25:57,716 --> 00:25:59,956 Speaker 1: Steve found themselves a new spiritual home. 431 00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:05,156 Speaker 8: I was confirmed and joined the Episcopal Church, and I 432 00:26:05,196 --> 00:26:08,916 Speaker 8: invited mom and dad to come and participate in that, 433 00:26:09,556 --> 00:26:13,196 Speaker 8: and a couple of other siblings came, and after I 434 00:26:13,276 --> 00:26:17,876 Speaker 8: rejoined the church, my father could hardly stop weeping his 435 00:26:17,956 --> 00:26:18,756 Speaker 8: tears of joy. 436 00:26:19,556 --> 00:26:22,836 Speaker 1: When a state at Pennsylvania legalized gay marriage in twenty fourteen, 437 00:26:23,316 --> 00:26:25,596 Speaker 1: Phil and Steve raced down to the courthouse to apply 438 00:26:25,636 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 1: for their marriage license. They were a second in. 439 00:26:28,036 --> 00:26:30,476 Speaker 8: Line, and the couple in front of us offered to 440 00:26:30,556 --> 00:26:32,316 Speaker 8: let us go first, but we let them go first 441 00:26:32,356 --> 00:26:33,276 Speaker 8: because we knew each other. 442 00:26:34,516 --> 00:26:36,316 Speaker 1: Then they had a big party at the Hamilton Club 443 00:26:36,356 --> 00:26:39,636 Speaker 1: in downtown Lancaster as they waited for their marriage certificate. 444 00:26:40,316 --> 00:26:43,836 Speaker 1: Invited four hundred people. Phil's rector from the Saint James 445 00:26:43,916 --> 00:26:47,316 Speaker 1: Episcopal Church, performed a ceremony. Phil had his father say 446 00:26:47,316 --> 00:26:48,356 Speaker 1: a blessing at the end. 447 00:26:49,236 --> 00:26:51,716 Speaker 8: But afterward he shared with me that he sort of 448 00:26:51,836 --> 00:26:54,876 Speaker 8: was a little bit envious that I had not asked 449 00:26:54,956 --> 00:26:58,796 Speaker 8: him to actually marry us. So as soon as we 450 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:01,156 Speaker 8: got the wedding certificate, and as soon as I knew 451 00:27:01,156 --> 00:27:02,676 Speaker 8: we were going to get married, I went to Dad. 452 00:27:02,716 --> 00:27:06,316 Speaker 8: I said, would you be willing to do this officially, 453 00:27:06,636 --> 00:27:10,036 Speaker 8: sign our wedding certificate, our marriagetif and would you be 454 00:27:10,076 --> 00:27:11,996 Speaker 8: willing to do the vows with the two of us? 455 00:27:13,396 --> 00:27:18,076 Speaker 1: They gathered in Phil's backyard, Phil Steve, two witnesses, Chester 456 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:21,436 Speaker 1: and his wife Sarah Jane. I asked Chester Wenger about 457 00:27:21,436 --> 00:27:23,876 Speaker 1: that day, why would it matter to him that someone 458 00:27:23,876 --> 00:27:25,676 Speaker 1: else would officiate at his son's wedding. 459 00:27:28,356 --> 00:27:30,756 Speaker 2: He told me that the mayor offered to marry him. 460 00:27:31,676 --> 00:27:37,516 Speaker 2: I was his father, and I was an ordained clergy 461 00:27:37,596 --> 00:27:40,916 Speaker 2: in our church. And I didn't say a word. I 462 00:27:41,036 --> 00:27:45,636 Speaker 2: just waited quietly, and when he asked, I said sure. 463 00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:53,836 Speaker 2: So I was I appreciate that he let me do that, 464 00:27:53,956 --> 00:27:55,996 Speaker 2: and signed the certificate. 465 00:27:56,396 --> 00:28:00,156 Speaker 1: With that act, Chester Wenger made his family whole. He 466 00:28:00,276 --> 00:28:03,036 Speaker 1: welcomed his son back into the fold of family and 467 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:07,156 Speaker 1: religious community. But he knew what that meant. It meant 468 00:28:07,156 --> 00:28:09,476 Speaker 1: that he had broken the rules of his own church, 469 00:28:09,836 --> 00:28:13,116 Speaker 1: which do not acknowledge same sex marriages. There was no 470 00:28:13,236 --> 00:28:15,836 Speaker 1: work around this time, like when he had women preach 471 00:28:15,916 --> 00:28:17,156 Speaker 1: in the pulpit of Blossom Hill. 472 00:28:17,516 --> 00:28:21,596 Speaker 2: They had to discipline, and so they lifted my credentials. 473 00:28:21,796 --> 00:28:24,716 Speaker 1: He was no longer I'm at a night pastor. You've 474 00:28:24,716 --> 00:28:28,636 Speaker 1: had credentials as a clergyman for se many years, since 475 00:28:28,756 --> 00:28:32,476 Speaker 1: nineteen forty eight. How did it feel to be stripped 476 00:28:32,476 --> 00:28:33,676 Speaker 1: of them? 477 00:28:34,036 --> 00:28:37,156 Speaker 2: It didn't make any difference to me, because I'm the 478 00:28:37,196 --> 00:28:42,356 Speaker 2: same person I am. I'm respected in my congregation. I 479 00:28:42,356 --> 00:28:46,836 Speaker 2: don't intend to marry anybody else. I don't intend to 480 00:28:46,876 --> 00:28:50,996 Speaker 2: be an authority for anyone. I just have a heritage 481 00:28:51,636 --> 00:28:55,796 Speaker 2: life that I've lived. So they took away something that 482 00:28:55,796 --> 00:28:56,996 Speaker 2: I'll never use anyway. 483 00:28:58,876 --> 00:29:00,716 Speaker 8: I did think you might want to marry one of 484 00:29:00,756 --> 00:29:09,636 Speaker 8: your great grandchildren someday. 485 00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:09,436 Speaker 1: He laughs. But of course it made a difference to him. 486 00:29:09,916 --> 00:29:12,516 Speaker 1: It made all the difference in the world. He gave 487 00:29:12,596 --> 00:29:16,956 Speaker 1: up his profession, his position within the church, his identity, 488 00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:19,716 Speaker 1: so he could officiate at the marriage of his son. 489 00:29:20,476 --> 00:29:24,516 Speaker 1: He sacrificed, He gave something up because his son had 490 00:29:24,516 --> 00:29:27,716 Speaker 1: been excluded from the world of church and family for 491 00:29:27,796 --> 00:29:31,116 Speaker 1: a Mennonite, the most grievous kind of harm. 492 00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:35,756 Speaker 2: And he's my child, He's my son, precious, precious child. 493 00:29:42,676 --> 00:29:46,596 Speaker 1: Then Chesterwenger wrote his letter, an open letter to the 494 00:29:46,636 --> 00:29:50,276 Speaker 1: Mennonite Church, the letter that went viral, written by the 495 00:29:50,316 --> 00:29:53,516 Speaker 1: man who wasn't even sure what viral meant. It's a 496 00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:57,196 Speaker 1: long letter, but here are the two sentences that struck 497 00:29:57,236 --> 00:30:00,396 Speaker 1: me the most. When my wife and I read the 498 00:30:00,396 --> 00:30:04,956 Speaker 1: Bible with today's fractured, anxious church in mind, we ask, 499 00:30:05,436 --> 00:30:08,596 Speaker 1: what is Jesus calling us to do with those sons 500 00:30:08,596 --> 00:30:11,716 Speaker 1: and daughters who among the most despised people in the world, 501 00:30:12,236 --> 00:30:16,316 Speaker 1: in all races and communities. What would Jesus do with 502 00:30:16,436 --> 00:30:20,676 Speaker 1: our sons and daughters who are bullied, homeless, sexually abused, 503 00:30:20,956 --> 00:30:23,556 Speaker 1: and driven to suicide at far higher rates than our 504 00:30:23,596 --> 00:30:30,476 Speaker 1: heterosexual children. That's generous, Chester Wenger, open to seeing the 505 00:30:30,516 --> 00:30:34,676 Speaker 1: world in new ways, but there's no anger in his letter. 506 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:41,276 Speaker 1: Alongside the generosity is orthodoxy respect for the body. He 507 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:44,876 Speaker 1: is trying to heal. He goes on to say that 508 00:30:44,916 --> 00:30:49,396 Speaker 1: he reported his transgression to the church leadership himself. He 509 00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:52,076 Speaker 1: told them what he had done, and they responded, and 510 00:30:52,116 --> 00:30:57,596 Speaker 1: these are his words with grace filled pastoral listening. And 511 00:30:57,636 --> 00:31:00,396 Speaker 1: then he writes, I am at peace with their decision 512 00:31:00,796 --> 00:31:16,636 Speaker 1: and understand their need to take this action. Chester Wenger 513 00:31:17,316 --> 00:31:20,116 Speaker 1: is going to win. Maybe not right away, but he'll 514 00:31:20,156 --> 00:31:24,596 Speaker 1: win because he makes plain not just how beautiful, generous 515 00:31:24,716 --> 00:31:28,756 Speaker 1: orthodox he is, but how powerful, which is something that 516 00:31:28,836 --> 00:31:33,036 Speaker 1: everyone who stands up in protest needs to remember. You 517 00:31:33,116 --> 00:31:35,956 Speaker 1: must respect the body you are trying to heal. 518 00:31:37,396 --> 00:31:38,036 Speaker 11: Are you going to. 519 00:31:37,996 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 1: Read something to his Chester adverse? 520 00:31:41,316 --> 00:31:46,436 Speaker 2: I thought I wanted to read from Romans. It's very familiar. 521 00:31:48,796 --> 00:31:53,756 Speaker 2: For I'm not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ Jesus. 522 00:31:55,196 --> 00:31:58,636 Speaker 2: It is the power of God for salvation to everyone 523 00:31:59,076 --> 00:32:04,116 Speaker 2: who has faith. The Gospel is open. I just think 524 00:32:04,196 --> 00:32:05,076 Speaker 2: that's so precious. 525 00:32:14,956 --> 00:32:18,476 Speaker 1: You've been listening to Revisionist History. If you like what 526 00:32:18,516 --> 00:32:20,996 Speaker 1: you've heard, do us a favor and rate us on 527 00:32:21,036 --> 00:32:24,956 Speaker 1: iTunes it helps. You can get more information about this 528 00:32:24,996 --> 00:32:29,396 Speaker 1: and other episodes at Revisionististory dot com or on your 529 00:32:29,396 --> 00:32:33,676 Speaker 1: favorite podcast app. Our show is produced by me LaBelle, 530 00:32:34,316 --> 00:32:38,756 Speaker 1: Roxanne Scott and Jacob Smith. Our editor is Julia Barton. 531 00:32:39,396 --> 00:32:43,556 Speaker 1: Music is composed by Luis Kira and Taka Yasuzawa. Flon 532 00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:47,756 Speaker 1: Williams is our engineer and our fact checker is Michelle 533 00:32:47,796 --> 00:32:54,756 Speaker 1: Sarraka Panalty Management team Laura Mayer, Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberg. 534 00:32:55,476 --> 00:32:56,676 Speaker 1: I'm Malcolm Gladwell.