WEBVTT - Ep. 199: Big Pieces of the Brain Pie 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is Me Eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:17.680 bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening Hunt podcast. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.440 You can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators 0:00:22.480 --> 0:00:26.080 are the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:28.960 the Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play Store, 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:36.479 nor where you stand with on x. Okay, Yanni, tell 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:40.000 me about this big, big fancy played at your kids 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:44.840 on just got some pictures. Jennifer had to go to Helen. 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:46.600 It was funny. These guys came down from Helen and 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.280 Jennifer had to go to Helen and today, so we 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:51.199 got a Mabel doesn't go to school on Monday, so 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.560 we had to get get her play date. She guts 0:00:53.560 --> 0:00:56.240 to go to a very fancy play date some friends 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:59.960 of ours on a boarding facilities. I think he was 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.160 what you'd call it, so quite a big property, bunch 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:07.480 of big barns, bunch of horses, hoses, some are there's 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:09.720 and uh, but most of them I think are just clients. 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.880 So we're like, you might not get to go ride horses, 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:16.160 because that's the whole thing and whatever. You probably hopefully 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:17.920 you just get to go and shovel some food that's 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.560 what I'm always hoping that my buddy Nate makes some 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:21.920 juice and they go over there and be like, no, 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:24.200 before you get to ride, you gotta shovel some ship. 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:28.920 But I started getting pictures and uh, it's like, yeah, 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:32.360 check this out. They went horseback riding, they went it, 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.840 took a spin on the a t V. Then we 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.080 went and stalked to balk with my father in law 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:41.400 and killed it. And your daughter's got amazing stalking skills. 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:45.640 Must be in the jeans just like I'm like, great, man, Like, 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.920 can I come over tomorrow and have a play dates? 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:53.000 Going to want to go home? Yeah, that's all today. 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.400 Now they're going to Costco, which they love to go 0:01:55.440 --> 0:02:01.040 and snack on all the Uh. Yeah, so I kind 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:04.160 of grew up like that. Actually that was just everyday life. 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:08.919 That's good man. It's a solid play date, right. Uh 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:13.200 oh quick things you know. Uh, Martha introduced yourself a 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.359 very special guest, Martha Williams. Martha Williams, tell me what 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:21.640 you do, Martha Williams. And I'm the director of Montana Fish, 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:26.760 Wildlife and Parks. Yeah, so every uh people listen to 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:30.720 the show should by now I have figured this out um. 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:36.640 Wildlife in in America is owned by the people and 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:43.920 it's held in trust by your states. Some exceptions like 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.560 stuff that has federal oversight because of endangered species and 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.440 migratory things, but generally wildlife is run at the state level. 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.919 All fifty states have when we just generally call a 0:02:54.960 --> 0:03:00.200 state fish and Game agency, even though yours is fish 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:03.840 wildlife and fish wildlife and parks. Colorado's used to be 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.320 fishing game, but they felt there was two hunt centric 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.040 which is something we'll be talking about today, and they 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.120 revamped it to fish and wildlife so that the hunting 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:16.560 people wouldn't have so much sense of entitlement and ownership. 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:22.880 I guess it's cpw it. Oh yeah, that's right, Andy Roll. No, no, no, sorry, California. 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:27.480 I'm thinking I'm mixing it up. Colorado became parks, Parks, 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:32.320 got parks, got rolled in, which is already true in Montana, Fish, 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:34.360 wildlife and parks, so you're in charge of three things, 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:42.120 um only three? Uh? Yeah. Colorado got combined with the 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:47.000 parks department and became what parks and wildlife. Parks actually 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:53.280 separated in Colorado and then joined back up. It's like 0:03:53.280 --> 0:03:56.760 people to get married a bunch of times. Only people 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.840 talk about it that way. Really they were together and 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:03.520 flew it up and got back together and divorced, step children, etcetera. 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:07.400 I didn't know that. And then it was California that 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.240 had to stop being fishing game because I felt it 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.960 was like there's a connotation of like there's a connotation 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.159 of shooting and killing and whatnot. So they changed it 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:22.560 to wildlife, which is fine because Montana has always been wildlife. 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:26.760 But it's changed, it hasn't Some people still call us 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.560 fishing game. Yeah, we've been this is the voice of 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:37.400 Martha's minder. That's a tough job. Uh yeah. So were yeah, 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.960 Greg Lemon, Uh we were. It was in the seventies 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:46.000 when we switched to fishing wildlife, so we were early 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.960 on on the switch. But we are still in the seventies. 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.120 Montana went from fishing game to fishing wildlife. Yeah, but 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.200 but you would I would have been like back then, 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.599 I've been like I was the world coming to well, 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.040 you can walk, you can produce at Who's gonna call 0:05:01.120 --> 0:05:04.560 us fishing game? You know? By the folks in the 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:06.720 in the who are standing in our lobby. I mean, 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.720 they'll old timers still calls fishing games. Oh yeah, it 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:12.760 will always be fishing games. Where I grew up, it 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.280 was everyone knew that it was the d n r 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.440 R Department and Natural Resource point being how to get 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:25.600 on this? Oh yeah, uh I why was I talking 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:27.480 about how states manage that the wildlife manage at the 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.920 state level? Public? Yeah, well you yeah, we'll get into 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:36.000 that hardcore. But Martha, you oversee run one of these 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.760 right where in the fourth largest state not by population, 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:44.200 but by land masks well and more importantly the best 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.360 of wildlife resources. No, man, I don't think so. Your 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.839 number your number three after Alaska? Your number three three? 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.520 I feel yeah, I feel like Alaska. Wait did I 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.120 just can see that? Tell me what the other two do? 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.640 Not have a run in debate about this? But um like, 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.039 I feel like I feel like woman's got a little 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:08.440 bit of a tot like a little bit of a 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:10.599 a little bit of a Why do you say that? 0:06:11.000 --> 0:06:14.280 I don't know? Oh, I thank you mostly to say 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.320 that because there's less people. Yeah, and I'm just one 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:18.760 of those kinds of people that always feels like I 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:22.960 should be somewhere else. Um quick thing, All right, Well, 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:24.760 we'll get back to that one, won't we Yeah, I 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:26.520 got some No, I got some things I want to 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:28.320 talk about. These are like little we do some little 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:31.000 news items up top. But some of these news items 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:32.520 are actually good because you'd be able to give your 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.919 perspective on them. One of the news items is I 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:40.680 wish Broody is here. Pennsylvania. It is now celebrating having 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:46.240 overcome the decades long battle against their blue laws and 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.960 blue laws or where you're not allowed to go hunting 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:52.520 on Sunday. Um. People have all kinds of reasons why 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:54.600 you can't go hunting on Sunday. It seems like the 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.159 good money is that the idea that people felt that 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:01.080 you were it was competing with with church. Um, so 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.320 you weren't supposed to hunt on Sunday. And then over 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.760 the years, uh, you know, people have become sort of 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.640 you know, embattled, and they kind of lost track of 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:12.680 what they're trying to solve in the first place. And 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:18.520 then you had people who hated Sunday hunting bands. The 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.240 National Shooting Sports Foundation, along with others, has been petitioning 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.720 successfully against Sunday hunting bands or blue laws in a 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.760 bunch of different states. And finally now like Pennsylvanians are 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:34.040 gonna be allowed to hunt a handful of Sunday's six 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:35.560 or something like that, which Broody is here to give 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:37.280 the Oh boy, No, I don't even think it's I 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.200 think it's half that. I think they added three. So 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:43.600 like every year, I think there was one, there's a 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.760 couple of Sundays where it's Okay, wondering Archie wondering rifle, 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:49.760 and then they were they still had hadn't come up 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.200 with the third day yet. I believe that's what I read, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:54.760 you know, And thinking about laws like this is always 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:57.520 funny to Madge, like there's always laws that are around, right, 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.080 and everybody success of their around. But I think a 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.680 good test of a law would be, like, imagine that 0:08:03.760 --> 0:08:06.960 you tried to roll it out today instead of just 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:12.240 having laws because we've always had them, right, constantly ask yourself, 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:16.160 what would happen today if you came to a state. 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:20.280 So someone comes to you, Martha here in Montana, UM 0:08:20.360 --> 0:08:22.560 and they said, I got an idea. I think that 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:25.320 you should not be able to hunt on a Sunday. Right. 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:30.960 It would be a very very hard law to enact, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.120 but states that just have it, they just got to 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.120 suck it up and have it even though everyone's like, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.520 what but you can't get rid of it? Well, but 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.640 I think also of all the laws that we have 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.079 that I don't think you could get through now, like 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:47.800 some of the good ones for instance, well, I think 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:52.679 stream access in Montana, people think you were insane. Right, 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:57.160 So that's a great point. Ways, if you said I 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.280 got an idea, everyone can just once they're in the river, 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:02.680 they just go what they want, drive boats up and down, 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.800 paddling every which way. If people would be like, you're crazy, 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:08.480 not through my property. The other great examples We've talked 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.480 about it a bunch. As an example of this is 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.560 the Pittman Robertson. He came up with that right now, 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:15.679 Like we're like, some people are throwing around the idea 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.560 of taxing the backpack tax, and it's not very welcome. Yeah, 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:21.199 I was bringing this up there that I think Yoanni 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:23.400 and I were driving around and we're talking about how 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.400 uh everybody I feel it's like this new awareness around 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.320 Pittman Robertson. It's been marketed well lately, right, and so 0:09:33.480 --> 0:09:35.480 more people aware of it. And I always here and 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:40.320 I'll hear people um and I'll hear people throwing around 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:45.800 like how proud they are of the contributions that the 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.720 gun owners and shooters, hunters and shooters, How proud they 0:09:49.720 --> 0:09:53.040 are of the contributions they make to conservation. And oftentimes 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:55.400 I'll be hearing this from someone and now I'll try 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:59.880 to imagine that same individual what their response would be 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.680 if it didn't exist, and you propose to them that 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:05.920 we make a rule, They're like, I got an idea. 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.520 How about the federal government comes in and they say 0:10:10.559 --> 0:10:14.880 that there's a tax on all guns and ammunition that 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:22.560 goes to help animals. People would people would like, there 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:28.680 would be revolts in the streets over this whole Organizations 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.680 would be founded to find the organizations founded to fight 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.800 It would be like, you know, it would lead to 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:39.160 I can't imagine the upheaval. But now people are like, 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.760 hell yeah, Brot Pitt Roberts. I wonder what it was 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:46.440 like back, you know, when it passed, like what box 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:52.840 of shells? Overwhelming item, overwhelming support? No, not this the support, 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:54.520 But I wonder what it was like on the street, 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.320 Like the guy that owned the sporting goods store, you 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:59.920 know that sold like a fifty cent box of twin 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:01.679 the two shells, and all of a sudden it was 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:05.280 you know, cents. Yeah, I don't know, you know, I 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:06.920 don't know. Like on the public end, I know I 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.400 had widespread support and came from hunters at the time. 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:14.400 I think hunter has most been a lot different. Well yeah, yeah, 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.319 maybe that because they know what they're different. I had 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.000 someone point out that it was from the depths of despair, 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.320 meaning it was at a time when there was nothing. 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:30.760 Wildlife was gone, and so that drastic, drastic situations lead 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:34.560 to drastic measures. It was brilliant though, I mean it 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.440 was brilliant. Also. I think of this all the time 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.080 when we go to the legislator. Most people don't realize 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:45.000 we have to get permission from the legislator to spend money, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:48.160 to spend any money. And so when we go and 0:11:48.320 --> 0:11:53.040 explain our programs, um, for any of the states to 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:58.520 get the federal money, Pittman, Robertson, Dingle Johnson, Um, we 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.760 have to have had our own statute ascent language. The 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:07.240 states had to pass statutes to say we will only 0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:11.520 spend license money in a certain way. And Pittman, Robertson 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:13.600 and Dingle Johnson in a certain way or we don't 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.840 get that federal money. And so when we go ask 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:21.040 for permission, will you know, the legislator will say, well, 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.840 how about you do this? And we have to say 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.880 we can't. We can't do that because it's not in 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:32.040 the ascent language or the Pittman Robertson Dingle Johnson doesn't 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:37.360 let us do that. That's really hard to explain. I 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:38.600 want to do a couple I gotta do a couple 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.559 more quick things I gotta take care of. But can 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:42.319 we enter with that? We'll enter with that part of 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:46.040 the conversation. Um, the money thing, but a couple of things. 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:48.600 We we have a You don't have to have an opinion. 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:53.079 Are you married, Martha? I'm sorry. I Oh, that's a 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:57.599 hard one. I was married. My husband passed away, so 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.880 I have a an awesome boyfriend, but I'm not married. 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.040 We're talking about wedding rings from man. Oh do you 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:07.560 have experience with these? Um? We've had a lot of 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:12.200 you are you? I'm not wearing them today because I was. 0:13:13.800 --> 0:13:16.360 I was. I usually have to on, but I was 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.360 hanging out of one of those uh tethered tree saddle 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:25.199 deals borrow from you all weekend. I was surprised how 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:27.679 comfortable and easy it was. It takes a little bit 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:31.880 of trust because there's no you're not standing on a 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:36.520 platform and see, yeah, you're just dangling around. Um and 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:38.360 that's not quite true anyways, But we're not getting two 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.280 into that. Because I was climbing trees and climbing, you know, 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.640 going of those ladders. I decided to take the rings 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.000 off because if it would be a really good opportunity 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.080 to get sleeved, you know, as a as a sort 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.520 of march, as a sort of public service. We've been 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:54.400 talking about the perils of rings. I had a I 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:58.720 got a fake one, rubber ones. But you know what, 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.120 I was cold one morning, got an antelopen. It fell off. 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.360 It's out on a field and wyoming somewhere. Um so 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:07.400 now I'm running no ring. But a guy wrote in 0:14:07.640 --> 0:14:10.160 he was we were talking about accidents of having to people. 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:12.560 This guy rode in his buddy as a commercial fisherman, 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.000 and he had a bunch of crabs and like he 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.800 gets to the docks and you keep you crabs. He's 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.640 aerated tanks and he got to worrying about the crabs. 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.800 He had an aerated tank that he's gonna sell and 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:25.440 he wanted to go back in and check on him. 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.760 And you have to take a real long walk around 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:31.840 a restaurant and through the wharf, or you just jump 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.280 this big fence. His body climbs up to jump this 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:39.400 big fence as a chain link or cyclone fence. Yeah, 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.240 after he jumped down and slipped and whatnot. Not only 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.520 was his ring on the fence, the whole finger on 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:51.320 the fence. Yeah, the whole thing hanging there from a 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.560 ring on the fence. He says he, uh, he uses 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:58.680 this mix, this missing ring finger as a reason to 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:02.520 not remarry. So apparently he's married at one point in time, 0:15:02.520 --> 0:15:05.800 and now he tells people he can't because of that. 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.640 Another guy wrote into that we're talking about when people 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:16.960 steal your spot. This guy took his pastor hunting ducks, 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:22.640 then later catches the pastor hunting the same spot. Yeah, 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.360 catches his pastor hunting the same spot with two other guys. 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:32.440 And he switched churches. Yeah, switch churches. I'm surprised he 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:39.760 didn't switched religions compromising. Yeah, he wants to know, did 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:46.560 I overreact through this hardcore? Here? Here's a good one 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.440 for uh, Yeah, it'd be hard to pay attention to 0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:53.040 the sermon at that point, right, yeah, yeah, what would 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.520 you be thinking? Just bad negative thoughts? Yeah, when the 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:04.400 pastors up there, honesty, accuracy, can I throw in on 0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:06.800 the ring? So sure? Then I got yeah, And then 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:08.840 I got one last little news thing. But it's not 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:12.360 even news. It doesn't count as news. But I've got so. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:15.920 I when I got married twelve years ago, I got 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:21.320 a titanium ring, specifically, why would you do that? Well, 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:23.840 at the time, I some I had some friends that 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.680 had him. They said, and they're like, they're indestructible. Who's 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:32.280 who's destroyed their ring? Anybody wear out a wedding ring? Well, 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:33.640 let me tell you what I do with it. So 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:37.920 I never carry around bottle openers. I never do. But 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:41.480 you can open a bottle with the titanium ring and 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:45.600 doesn't even it doesn't even mark it up, just put 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:50.200 the cap in. Yeah, I do teeth. Yeah, but but 0:16:50.320 --> 0:16:53.400 you can't you can't do that with a silicone. And then, 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.760 and I've been thinking about it, you know, tossing it 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:57.480 around like that. You know, they got to get those 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:00.160 off when people come in, they break their finger, they 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:02.160 get it off by crushing it with a vice gript 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.800 I never I never cease to keep because it's my 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:09.639 fear that I'm gonna get some sort of you know, 0:17:09.720 --> 0:17:12.879 water retention, you know, sickness, and then all of a 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.200 sudden my hands gonna swell. I'm not gonna be able 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.800 to get and you because we had an emergency room 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.960 doctor right in and say do not wear the titanium 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.399 ones because we cannot grind through them. He said. When 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.560 they got to get a titanium ring off someone who's 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:31.639 got a hand injury, they need to crush it with 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:36.080 a vice or a pair of locking pliers. You can 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.399 you can only break it off. You can't cut it 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:40.520 off with the equipment. The equipment they have. So the 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.800 so the benefit of being able to open up beer 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:46.040 bottle with your ring is not does an offset? Yes, 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:47.920 see this the whole thing I have on my keychain. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.239 I'm showing Greg. Now some folks call that a bottle over. 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:56.800 It's with me most times. One last news item. There's 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.600 a guy I don't really get. It's kind of long email. 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.240 He's in the PhD program in archaeology at the University 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:07.240 of Colorado, Boulder, and he's petitioning his state right now 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:10.240 to allow him. He doesn't think he's gonna get anywhere 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:13.240 with this, but he's petitioning the state of Colorado to 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:17.120 allow at Lattle hunting. What's your take on, at Martha. 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.040 I think we've gotten one of those before too. How 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:22.840 do you how do you handle it? It was like, 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:25.560 how do you break that one down? Yeah? Well let 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.280 me okay, uh, let's just do this. Let me I'll 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.080 try to put in a fair way like, Um, what 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:35.080 would be in your mind as a state director of 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:38.120 a wildlife agency? What are some of the things that 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:41.400 roll around in your head the minute someone says I 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:46.560 ought to be able to right kill deer with a 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:50.080 with an at Lattle? Oh, I mean the first thing 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.479 that comes up is fair chase. I mean, you know 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:57.960 what I think of what our traditional hunting methods, and 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:03.040 I think now other than going we typically think forward 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:09.480 and what technologies are pushing hunting where it goes beyond 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:13.239 fair chase and and has society you know, caught up 0:19:13.280 --> 0:19:16.639 to that method or not. I don't often think of 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:23.600 going back. Word, Um, why wouldn't we? I guess I 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.840 guess my first question would be why wouldn't we? Rather 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:32.480 than starting with not, I guess it would you know, 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.440 I don't know because some some states have some states 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.320 something they'd allow you to do it. Some stay it's 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:39.439 when you look at the rules that doesn't prohibit it. 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:42.920 But I would imagine the big argument against it would 0:19:42.920 --> 0:19:48.640 be one of efficacy and like the risk of uh 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.560 maim and stuff. Can you remember some years ago there 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:57.240 was a huge brewha where a guy uh made a 0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:03.280 big production how to kill the bear to spear? Oh, 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:05.480 it was like a whole It was in Canada, right, 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.679 kill the bear to spear in Canada. The blow up 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:13.080 was so bad, the social upheat, like what it was? 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:16.840 What I'm looking for? Ever being pissed. That's so pissed 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:21.720 that the province then made it illegal to spear bear 0:20:21.840 --> 0:20:23.800 to hunt with a spear. They went from having that 0:20:23.840 --> 0:20:27.399 it wasn't clarified a guy did it. People were so 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:31.919 it was so offensive to people that you kill it. 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.159 I think people look at it like it's a stunt, 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:39.159 like you're stunting right, and man, they were pissed and 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:43.480 then made it that clarified that one cannot hunt with 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:46.720 a spear. Well, didn't we talk about this in the 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.160 car and the way here in a way, Greg, we 0:20:49.160 --> 0:20:51.879 weren't talking about sparing a bear, but we were talking 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:58.520 about in Montana, you know, UM hunting bow hunting versus 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:03.800 rifle and UM, is it the experience that we're allowing 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.120 people to get out and have or is it just 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.879 really um? Is it the efficacy? Is it that you 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:13.040 obviously you want to kill an animal with one shot 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.760 and you should be good and proficient. But um, if 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:23.119 we were worried just about the efficacy, would would we 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:27.199 then limit the opportunity we have and the and the 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.880 method of take it. I mean there's a balance there. 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:35.240 It is. It's like, yeah, it's it's hard to it's 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.200 when you you can go through life having it all 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:40.479 makes sense, like what you can can't do? And then 0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:43.439 someone throws out a question like the atletically, what is 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:48.040 ant throwing board for a spear? Okay, it's the thing 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:54.320 you swing bo Okay yeah, and at ladle is it's 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.160 a spear, but just a mechanism by which people can 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:02.880 throw spears. So they archaeologists feel that fifteen thousand years 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.840 ago when this when the Western hemisphere was colonized, it 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.640 was colonized by people who hunted with at laddles. So 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.760 it's like it's a spear. But then there's a board 0:22:12.119 --> 0:22:14.800 that you hold on to, and it's like, you know 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:16.560 those things, you know a good way to think about it. 0:22:16.680 --> 0:22:18.360 You know those things when you go to a dog park. 0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:23.959 Things use to throw tennis balls, that rippy little tennis 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:27.920 ball hooker and at laddles, one of those that throws 0:22:27.960 --> 0:22:30.920 a spear. What's not even that game that those things 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:36.359 came from. No lawn darts, No, no, no, It's like 0:22:36.400 --> 0:22:39.159 in a room and you have all the players have 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:44.000 those crescent curved Come on, Phil, I think dog throwing 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:48.399 dog ball hookers. No, you throw it against the wall. 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:53.800 It's racket ball. Oh, the track ball, the big they had, 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.480 the big Oh that was a good game. Man. That 0:22:57.680 --> 0:23:02.520 little looks like a little sickle hawks the ball, whiffleball. 0:23:02.560 --> 0:23:05.480 I think that was coming. Did you see that? Did 0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:08.399 you see the jackass? Where they were moving, where they 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:13.360 were throwing oranges at each other with those things? Good, good, 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:18.080 while very very entertaining. So uh, that little thing, I 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:19.840 don't know. I'd be curiously what happens with it, but 0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:22.520 it does like everything makes sense, like oh, you can 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:24.720 hold the gun, you hold the bow, and then you 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:26.879 don't think about it too much, and then someone proposes like, well, 0:23:26.920 --> 0:23:29.240 why can't I do X? And it puts you in 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:33.560 this position where you're trying to like articulate something that 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:36.200 you hadn't thought to articulate, like, I don't know, why 0:23:36.200 --> 0:23:38.440 can't you? So I don't think you should be able 0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:39.959 to do? But why don't I think you should be 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:42.600 able to I think we do that all the time too. 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:45.560 Things come up that you've got to break it down. 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:49.399 How would we answer that on this question? Uh? The 0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:53.639 statute governs some of what we can take used for 0:23:53.680 --> 0:23:58.199 take in Montana and uh, there was a bill a 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:02.440 few sessions ago. No, well there was an addle addle 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:07.080 bill post in Montana that died in the legislature. So 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:11.600 someone advanced that it got its due it's got its due. Course, Yeah, 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:14.440 it got considered in a serious way and didn't make it. 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:19.119 Didn't make it. Uh does the state record the rationale 0:24:19.320 --> 0:24:21.359 of things that? Do? They not record the rationale? Like 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:25.400 what it didn't make it? Does someone record sort of? Uh? 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:27.720 Is it recorded? Like the arguments against it and for 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:32.600 it are recorded? Not recorded? They're recorded? Uh? In like 0:24:32.680 --> 0:24:35.639 the public records of the hearing. So there was a 0:24:35.680 --> 0:24:39.280 public hearing on it, and those who came forward in 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:42.399 favor and those who came forward against. It's all and 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:44.320 the gist what they had to say would be available. 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:47.639 It's a legislative history. You'd love to go see what 0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:53.000 the guy or gal who had to say. Why not? 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:56.639 And I don't why we should remember it wasn't that 0:24:56.680 --> 0:24:59.000 long ago, No, but it was. It was when I 0:24:59.040 --> 0:25:01.760 was still in general is him and and it wasn't. Um, 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:04.440 but we could track it down so you could look 0:25:04.440 --> 0:25:06.679 at the bill number and you could you in the 0:25:06.840 --> 0:25:10.760 sponsor because the sponsor. But what I do remember is 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:14.440 the sponsor. Sometimes sponsors are not real invested in the bill. 0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:18.159 They just happen to, you know, have a constituent that 0:25:18.200 --> 0:25:20.240 wants something carries, you got to be in his bonnet. 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:23.639 And yeah, the sponsor on this one really was, I 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:31.679 would think, was really interested in it. I got shot down. Yeah, yeah, thanks, 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:36.080 Now we'll see another proposal next session. Um, that's it 0:25:36.200 --> 0:25:39.560 for Newsy stuff. Oh yeah, you know, a method of take. 0:25:39.680 --> 0:25:41.560 That's the thing I find it when I'm talking to 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:44.800 people who aren't familiar with the hunting and rules of hunting, 0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:50.239 they're often interested to hear about all the method of 0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:53.560 take restrictions such as like in this state you can 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:58.200 shoot a variety of like you can shoot mountain grouse, 0:25:59.320 --> 0:26:05.080 so with call here would be like Franklin's blues dusky. Yeah, 0:26:05.160 --> 0:26:07.639 well now yeah, they're you're right, you're way ahead of me. 0:26:08.320 --> 0:26:14.359 Dusky grouse, rouffed grouse, spruce grouse can be killed with 0:26:14.480 --> 0:26:18.120 a rifle. But you can shoot me with twenty two. 0:26:18.600 --> 0:26:21.520 You cannot shoot with the twenty two sharp tail grouse, 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:28.359 pheasants right, um, turkeys, you cannot shoot him with a 0:26:28.480 --> 0:26:31.000 rifle in the spring. You can shoot him in the 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:34.320 rifle in the fall. There's a ton of method to 0:26:34.320 --> 0:26:38.720 take stuff out there, people to get complicated, people like 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:42.000 rassling over it. Uh, all right, I'm gonna get back 0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:46.440 to this the money thing. Um, I'm trying to think 0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:49.359 of the enterness in the way that the most instructive 0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:54.200 way possible. You're probably good at doing this lay out 0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:58.399 for me, Like what layout for folks? Layout for folks? 0:26:58.400 --> 0:27:02.040 Like what is like what it is a state Fish 0:27:02.080 --> 0:27:04.000 and Game agency does, like one of the things you're 0:27:04.240 --> 0:27:09.600 responsible for looking at? And then how does that get 0:27:09.600 --> 0:27:17.680 paid for? Easy question? Thanks? Um, Well, I think we're 0:27:17.720 --> 0:27:21.760 responsible for more than people realize, and we're responsible for 0:27:21.920 --> 0:27:25.800 more than UM what we always get direct funding for. 0:27:25.960 --> 0:27:30.200 I mean, so I think fish and game, fish, wildlife 0:27:30.200 --> 0:27:33.960 and Parks d n r's are charged with more than 0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:38.760 people realize. In Montana, Fish Wildlife and Parks Mission is 0:27:38.920 --> 0:27:48.640 disteward the fish, Wildlife, recreational and parks resources of Montana UM. 0:27:48.720 --> 0:27:51.399 And we do that with the Citizen Commission, and we 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.280 do it with a board. UM. You know, so we 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:58.360 don't do it alone. Can you explain the Citizen Commission Somewhere? 0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:02.600 Some states it's different. So, UM, the director I am 0:28:02.640 --> 0:28:06.520 appointed by the governor. In some states the director is 0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:11.320 appointed by the commission. But in Montana, the governor appoints 0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:15.520 the director of all of the agencies. And the governor 0:28:15.680 --> 0:28:20.679 also appoints the Fish and Wildlife Commission and the Parks 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:25.719 and Recreation Board. So they're the Citizen Commission. It's the 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:29.560 Fish and Wildlife Commission and the Parks and Recreation Board, 0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:33.280 and they really are the ones that set policy and 0:28:33.520 --> 0:28:38.600 UM help with UM allocation issues. And then you have 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:44.000 the legislature in Montana passes statutes that get into specific 0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:51.720 numbers and percentage of resident versus nonresident licenses issues like that. 0:28:52.120 --> 0:28:57.440 So the department brings proposals forward to the commission and 0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:00.400 this is what people often call a game commission yep yea. 0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:05.800 And those game commissions were UM. The early getting to 0:29:05.840 --> 0:29:09.600 the origin of the Pittman Robertson Act and the restoration 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:12.640 of wildlife and why we funded the way we did 0:29:13.840 --> 0:29:19.360 was early on when wildlife populations were depleted at best, 0:29:19.480 --> 0:29:24.720 you know, bison were decimated, birds, migratory birds were populations 0:29:24.720 --> 0:29:28.600 were decimated, for feathers, deer, a lot, a number of 0:29:28.600 --> 0:29:33.240 wildlife populations UM and fisheries, commercial fisheries were plummeting, and 0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:38.240 so states created UM, the Fish and Game Commissions to 0:29:38.360 --> 0:29:43.200 try to restore those species. So in the United States, 0:29:43.400 --> 0:29:48.360 the states have always UH been the entity that stepped 0:29:48.440 --> 0:29:52.440 up to manage what we think of is that the 0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:56.480 public trust the wildlife resources in the country. And it 0:29:56.640 --> 0:30:00.320 started with those Fish and Game Commissions and then UM 0:30:00.360 --> 0:30:04.400 they realized, you know that that you needed that scientific underpinning, 0:30:04.440 --> 0:30:08.760 you needed to understand what species needed or what habitat 0:30:08.840 --> 0:30:13.600 you needed. And then the departments developed around UM giving 0:30:13.600 --> 0:30:18.400 that expertise in the in the scientific research to know 0:30:18.520 --> 0:30:20.800 how to manage I didn't realize that the idea of 0:30:20.840 --> 0:30:24.920 game commissions predated the idea of a state agency. It 0:30:24.960 --> 0:30:26.920 would just be like someone would a point a bunch 0:30:26.960 --> 0:30:29.960 of people that had a vested interest or expertise, and 0:30:29.960 --> 0:30:33.600 they'd be like, hey, you all get together, you figure 0:30:33.640 --> 0:30:35.800 out if there should be a deer season or not. Yeah, 0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:37.880 because well they stepped up because they felt like they 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:41.880 needed to be recovering these species. They weren't dealing with 0:30:42.040 --> 0:30:45.920 the plethora riches that we're dealing with today, luckily me 0:30:45.960 --> 0:30:49.360 and it was a totally different, different scenario. So there's 0:30:49.360 --> 0:30:52.880 still this interplay between a state Fish and Game agency 0:30:52.920 --> 0:30:58.520 and the state's commission. Yes, definitely. Is it tense? Um? Well, sure, 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:01.160 I mean it can be tense. I don't think it's 0:31:01.200 --> 0:31:05.320 bad at all. I mean I are current commission. I 0:31:05.320 --> 0:31:08.920 feel like we recognize that we have different roles, and 0:31:08.960 --> 0:31:11.880 so instead of arguing or being tense, I think we 0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:15.440 just realize we have different roles to play. The department 0:31:15.920 --> 0:31:20.760 puts forward proposals, and the commission, you know, sometimes they're 0:31:20.760 --> 0:31:22.960 put in the hardest position where they've got to vote 0:31:23.000 --> 0:31:25.400 on these proposals. How do you get a job on 0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:27.040 that commission? Man, I want to be on that commission 0:31:27.080 --> 0:31:30.040 so bad you do. You should apply. How many people 0:31:30.040 --> 0:31:35.600 are on it? There five and they're paid position. No, 0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:38.840 they are not paid positions. I would want no one else. 0:31:39.360 --> 0:31:45.240 I want to be the only commissioner you could. Yeah, 0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:49.400 that's shoot for it. Are there any states where it's 0:31:49.400 --> 0:31:53.680 an elected position that you hold? Omissioners are always pointed, 0:31:53.680 --> 0:31:56.479 it's always I never heard of non. I don't know 0:31:56.560 --> 0:31:59.960 of any that are elected, but I certainly I haven't 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:02.200 looked at the state they had to run for game 0:32:02.200 --> 0:32:06.400 commission be suite. So you're in Montana, They're they're appointed 0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:12.720 on different staggering terms. So there so when a governor 0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:17.080 is a new governor's elected, there's some overlap in terms. 0:32:17.080 --> 0:32:24.000 So um, you know, so there's continuity between one administration 0:32:24.040 --> 0:32:28.080 to the next. And then they also represent regional area, 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:32.720 so there's not like five commissioners from the most populated 0:32:32.760 --> 0:32:37.080 areas of the state. They're spread out. So um, we 0:32:37.160 --> 0:32:40.560 have got like a commissioner from Glasgow, for instance, that 0:32:40.640 --> 0:32:46.000 represents region that region of the state. We got your way, Sorry, 0:32:46.000 --> 0:32:47.360 go ahead, I was just saying we got your way. 0:32:47.400 --> 0:32:53.480 Off off off your answer, Pittman Robertson, Yeah what um, yeah, 0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:55.560 like what what your mandate is, like how what you 0:32:55.640 --> 0:33:00.160 do and how it all gets paid for. So, at 0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:03.880 least in Montana, Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks, I believe 0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:07.920 the well Montana Constitution. I could go off forever on that. 0:33:08.000 --> 0:33:10.440 It's just a really cool document. It goes back to 0:33:10.480 --> 0:33:15.320 the conversation of could we get a constitution through now 0:33:15.480 --> 0:33:17.280 that looks like the one we have? I think it 0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:23.480 would be hard. So the constitution and the statutes, UM 0:33:23.680 --> 0:33:27.840 set up what the department does, and that is that 0:33:27.880 --> 0:33:35.120 we um steward fish, wildlife, parks, recreational resources. And then 0:33:35.360 --> 0:33:39.040 you add a layer to that are funding primarily comes 0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:46.120 from selling licenses and then um that's um, let's see, 0:33:46.120 --> 0:33:51.880 it's about fifty three million dollars. It's almost half, almost 0:33:51.960 --> 0:33:54.560 half of the of our budget comes from license sales, 0:33:54.920 --> 0:33:58.360 which is pretty high. Not all states are that high. Um. 0:33:58.440 --> 0:34:02.080 And then the then the rest of it we don't get, well, 0:34:02.120 --> 0:34:05.960 we used to not get any general fund. Um. We 0:34:05.960 --> 0:34:12.280 we fund ourselves really through license sales. And then the Pittman, Robertson, Dingle, Johnson, 0:34:12.440 --> 0:34:15.880 Land and Water Conservation Fund, all the different federal sources 0:34:16.000 --> 0:34:21.280 of of match that we get. That's that's how we operate. 0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:24.239 But you you a lot of agencies do not have 0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:28.560 hard funding. Explain that and you do get hard funding. Yeah. Right. 0:34:29.280 --> 0:34:34.239 So when the Pittman robertson Dingle Johnson, I think it 0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:38.319 started as Federal Aid and Wildlife Restoration Act. So the 0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:43.960 concept started where put excise taxes on on certain equipment, 0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:48.440 you know, hunting, fishing equipment. When when both Dingle Johnson 0:34:48.480 --> 0:34:52.680 and PR were passed and the states could get that 0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:56.600 money a certain apportionment to the state, if the state 0:34:56.719 --> 0:35:00.680 had its own statute that said the state can use 0:35:01.120 --> 0:35:09.120 license money only for restoration of fish and wildlife and 0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:12.759 for these you know, to help game species to the 0:35:12.760 --> 0:35:16.080 state can't rob it's the state can't rob it's. It's 0:35:16.280 --> 0:35:18.080 it can't be like, oh, you your department has a 0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:19.640 bunch of money, I'm gonna take all that and spend 0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:21.640 it on something. We have to, you know, that's right, 0:35:21.680 --> 0:35:24.560 We have to. It's what it's called control. The Fish 0:35:24.560 --> 0:35:28.400 and Game agency has to retain control over the money, 0:35:29.160 --> 0:35:32.640 license money and any of that federal matching money that 0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:35.839 comes in, so we have to retain control of it. 0:35:36.160 --> 0:35:40.440 That's one buzzword. And then also we can't divert it 0:35:40.560 --> 0:35:43.920 to another someone else, can't spend it, and it can't 0:35:43.920 --> 0:35:47.600 be diverted to what's called an ineligible use. So if 0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:49.880 you were to do that, then you become ineligible for 0:35:49.920 --> 0:35:53.319 the federal money. And no state wants this. Most state would. 0:35:53.760 --> 0:35:55.640 They wouldn't want to screw themselves like that, so they 0:35:55.640 --> 0:35:57.960 don't steal your money and do an airport renovation with 0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:00.600 it or something exactly. That's part of the brilliance of 0:36:01.200 --> 0:36:06.560 the UM. It's the Wildlife Sport Fish Restoration Program woos 0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:11.360 for that combines all these different UM federal pots of money. 0:36:11.600 --> 0:36:13.480 And what's the what's the hard funding you mean, like 0:36:13.560 --> 0:36:17.080 just like general like when someone pays just the regular taxes, 0:36:17.120 --> 0:36:20.080 like a person lives in the state Montana elsewhere, that 0:36:20.160 --> 0:36:22.760 doesn't come to fish wildlife. No, none of that money 0:36:22.760 --> 0:36:28.360 comes a little bit now for our a caughtic convasive 0:36:28.400 --> 0:36:31.480 species program. I think that's it, and not very much 0:36:31.520 --> 0:36:34.440 of it, and that's dedicated, so you don't just get 0:36:34.480 --> 0:36:37.640 like a general chunk like the same way the Department Transportation, 0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:42.040 it's like just general state money or one of the 0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:46.600 few agencies to test that. Yeah, I think that, um, 0:36:46.640 --> 0:36:50.000 you know, in preparing to have this conversation was one 0:36:50.000 --> 0:36:52.880 of the things we talked about. One of these that 0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:55.560 really like initiated the conversation was was talking about this, 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:58.239 this sort of this this whole package of things that 0:36:58.280 --> 0:37:02.120 we're discussing, meaning like who owns wildlife, who manages it, 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:05.759 how does it get paid for? All this is sort 0:37:05.800 --> 0:37:10.040 of captured in this kind of hard to understand concept 0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:14.680 of the North American model of wildlife conservation? Phil, what's 0:37:14.680 --> 0:37:17.359 the North American model? Let's ask Phil, he don't hunt. 0:37:18.000 --> 0:37:20.759 What's the North American model wildlife conservation? Phil? Real quick? 0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:24.359 I could not give you a good definition. See there 0:37:24.360 --> 0:37:27.000 you go, every man. This is just the every man 0:37:27.080 --> 0:37:29.520 off the street. He doesn't know. Um, he doesn't. He 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:31.600 doesn't need to know. I'm not even mad at him 0:37:31.600 --> 0:37:37.000 about not knowing. Um uh. But yeah, So North American 0:37:37.040 --> 0:37:39.719 model of wildlife conservation, meaning here's a healthy way to 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:43.040 look at it. Look at places that don't have it, right, 0:37:43.080 --> 0:37:44.840 It's helpful to explain like what it is by like, 0:37:45.200 --> 0:37:46.719 look a place he doesn't have it. For instance, you 0:37:46.760 --> 0:37:51.920 go to place like Scotland. Um, we talked it was 0:37:51.960 --> 0:37:53.920 for in Scotland have right to Rome. You can go 0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:57.040 wherever you want, like people can't kick you off their property. 0:37:57.080 --> 0:37:58.680 Can you can roam around wherever you want to go. 0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:02.799 But can you fish everywhere? Nope? Everywhere Nope. And in 0:38:02.920 --> 0:38:06.560 Scotland here like here in the US. And let's let's 0:38:06.560 --> 0:38:09.320 take again, because we're here talking to the state director 0:38:09.320 --> 0:38:12.680 in Montana. UM, you might own property and there might 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:15.239 be elk on that property, but you do not own 0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:18.360 those elk. They belong to the state. They blown to 0:38:18.400 --> 0:38:21.040 the people. So like you have the you hold the 0:38:21.080 --> 0:38:23.239 ground they sit on, but you have no more right 0:38:23.320 --> 0:38:25.520 to them than anybody else has to them. You control 0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:28.560 access to them, but you don't control the things themselves. 0:38:29.040 --> 0:38:31.040 You can't box them up, you can't give him away, 0:38:31.080 --> 0:38:32.600 you can't just shoot him when you feel like you 0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:34.600 gotta go through all the rules everybody else has to 0:38:34.680 --> 0:38:37.520 go through. UM. And then that's like a big part 0:38:37.520 --> 0:38:39.360 of the North American model of wild They have conservation 0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:42.200 and the other part of it is is that that 0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:47.120 there's public input on management and public input on how 0:38:47.120 --> 0:38:52.600 we pay for it all. So yeah, well I think 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:55.400 of that too. I don't want to get too on key, 0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:58.200 but I actually think of what you've just explained that 0:38:58.360 --> 0:39:07.320 UM that wildlife the the public holds wildlife in trust. 0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:11.080 We well, the state holds wildlife and trust we manage 0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:18.759 that asset. And the legislature is in a way the trustee, 0:39:18.800 --> 0:39:23.240 they set the laws, we manage it. And the beneficiary 0:39:23.320 --> 0:39:25.759 the people who benefit from that. And we need to 0:39:25.840 --> 0:39:31.160 manage the wildlife for everybody. And that's I think more 0:39:31.280 --> 0:39:35.200 UM derives from the public trust. And I think of 0:39:35.239 --> 0:39:39.640 the North American model, or as the statutes and the 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:44.000 funding mechanisms that this country put into place that helps 0:39:44.200 --> 0:39:49.480 fund that model, that allows us to have the public trust. 0:39:50.760 --> 0:39:54.239 So it's kind of it's twofold, but I'm following you. Yeah, 0:39:54.239 --> 0:39:56.320 well the reason, yeah, the reason is getting that and 0:39:56.360 --> 0:39:57.480 you can call it as any way you want to 0:39:57.480 --> 0:39:59.759 call it, but I think that one of the ways 0:39:59.800 --> 0:40:01.680 it it gets important. It gets down to some of 0:40:01.680 --> 0:40:06.279 the things we wanted to discuss today, is the wildlife 0:40:06.320 --> 0:40:08.759 is for everyone. Right. Let's just say so here here 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:11.960 in a state like this, wildlife for everyone. You're supposed 0:40:12.000 --> 0:40:16.120 to manage wildlife for everyone. Everyone has different ideas. This 0:40:16.160 --> 0:40:17.839 is gonna be too big of a question where you're 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:23.040 going everyone has different ideas. Everyone's an expert about. Well, 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:26.240 you're like, okay, if you're managing it for me, here's 0:40:26.239 --> 0:40:29.040 what I would like to see happen, right. I would 0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:31.719 like every bear that comes near my house to die. 0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:34.319 And your job is to manage wildlife for me, because 0:40:34.360 --> 0:40:35.560 I own it and that's what I want to do. 0:40:36.040 --> 0:40:38.680 And then someone else, the next person down the road, 0:40:39.000 --> 0:40:42.759 is like, since you're managing wildlife for me, um, I 0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:45.120 want no bears to ever die. And so that's what 0:40:45.200 --> 0:40:47.040 I want because it's my wildlife and you're just here 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:49.360 to manage it for me. And there's a lot of 0:40:49.400 --> 0:40:51.840 reconciling that needs to happen. And what it throws a 0:40:51.840 --> 0:40:53.920 little bit of a wrench into this whole thing is 0:40:53.960 --> 0:40:56.160 that you just pointed out that people to buy hunting 0:40:56.160 --> 0:41:02.560 and fishing licenses are paying over half of the budget 0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:07.080 for your agency. And then another huge chunk of your 0:41:07.080 --> 0:41:11.759 budget is coming from people who buy firearms and ammunition 0:41:11.800 --> 0:41:14.480 and fishing equipment, another in some designated sporting goods like 0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:17.759 bows and arrows and whatnot, so they're all footing the bill. 0:41:19.239 --> 0:41:24.160 Talk about share with us your thoughts about how one 0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:31.000 sort of does triage on this like whose opinion matters 0:41:31.040 --> 0:41:36.120 the most, the one that's paying? Why you do this? 0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:38.879 You just got right to the heart of it. Yeah, 0:41:39.560 --> 0:41:42.239 and there's a there's a lot there. But like, right, 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:44.919 you don't even give your own personal opinion. You don't 0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:46.440 need to even talk about what happens here, but like 0:41:48.080 --> 0:41:53.320 what happens when you start wrestling all of this out? Well, okay, 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:56.040 so awesome question. And I don't even know what the 0:41:56.120 --> 0:41:59.319 question was. Whose opinion matters the people that pay? Are 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:01.320 the people that don't pay? Or is it all the same? 0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:06.480 Do you get a bonus because you paid? Well, I'm 0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:11.920 sure you'd like to. Um, you got a vote, although 0:42:12.000 --> 0:42:15.000 not a specific vote. You get to engage, you get 0:42:15.120 --> 0:42:18.120 input for sure. So I mean it goes to the 0:42:18.160 --> 0:42:21.440 other piece of what you started with in that, UM, 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:25.960 we have to do our work through public engagement. So 0:42:26.040 --> 0:42:31.480 my opinion actually really doesn't matter. UM. My opinion on 0:42:31.480 --> 0:42:34.640 on the decision making process and guiding it to make 0:42:34.680 --> 0:42:39.000 sure it's is fair and transparent as possible matters. But 0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:43.600 it's the public input, UM that should guide kind of 0:42:43.640 --> 0:42:50.800 where we go. But it's not a vote, UM, And obviously, UM, 0:42:50.840 --> 0:42:53.480 there's always gonna it's a balancing act. I mean we 0:42:53.480 --> 0:42:55.640 were talking about that on the on the way down. 0:42:56.080 --> 0:43:00.359 There's very little we do that doesn't require balance. I mean, 0:43:00.440 --> 0:43:03.760 most decisions that come to a fish and wildlife, fish, wildlife, 0:43:03.840 --> 0:43:09.200 and parks agency parks sometimes is less controversial at fish 0:43:09.200 --> 0:43:13.400 and wildlife. I can hardly think of many decisions that 0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:17.160 don't require some balance. You mean to tell me that, Um, 0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:20.760 everybody in this whole state doesn't all just agree on everything. 0:43:21.920 --> 0:43:28.080 Oh yeah, they agree always flooding, excellent job. Hey, yeah 0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:31.920 you're hired. No, Um, no, of course they don't. Of 0:43:31.960 --> 0:43:35.360 course they don't. And I mean think about it. You 0:43:35.400 --> 0:43:39.800 know you've got walleye fisherman, or a walleye fishery and 0:43:39.880 --> 0:43:43.720 a top fishery, or you know, bears. Do we protect 0:43:43.719 --> 0:43:46.080 bears and never kill a bear? Or do we make 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:48.840 sure bears don't get around shelter belts, you know on 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:53.080 the Rocky Mountain front. So I don't know that there's 0:43:53.120 --> 0:43:56.560 ever going to be the perfect answer. We're always so 0:43:56.760 --> 0:43:59.400 maybe another way to put it is, it's our job. 0:44:00.080 --> 0:44:02.600 We're always going to make somebody mad. I mean that's 0:44:02.640 --> 0:44:05.680 just the way it goes. So how do you do that? 0:44:05.719 --> 0:44:10.319 First of all, I think, um, sure, we can get 0:44:10.360 --> 0:44:15.360 hammered on so many issues. We get all these competing interests. 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:18.320 I mean, that's just the nature of what we do period. 0:44:19.280 --> 0:44:24.840 I think there's tremendous beauty in that because people are passionate. 0:44:25.280 --> 0:44:29.000 So yeah, they might be crazy passionate sometimes, but they 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:33.880 care and can We've talked internally, what would it feel 0:44:33.920 --> 0:44:37.239 like if people didn't care what we did? I think 0:44:37.280 --> 0:44:39.880 that would be worse or what I you know, what 0:44:40.000 --> 0:44:44.520 if people didn't care about our outdoor experiences? What if 0:44:44.600 --> 0:44:47.200 people didn't care about elk? What if people didn't care 0:44:47.239 --> 0:44:50.600 about grizzly bears. I get what you're saying. I get 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:55.439 what you're saying, like in theory, Yeah, but it has 0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:58.160 to be we have to embrace that would kill us. 0:44:58.160 --> 0:44:59.759 There's two things that there are two things you said 0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:02.279 that I that I appreciate. One that you you said 0:45:02.320 --> 0:45:07.440 that you don't spend like what you think doesn't matter. Yeah, 0:45:07.600 --> 0:45:09.960 that's interesting. Do do you feel like you're pretty successful 0:45:10.000 --> 0:45:13.840 at pushing down like your personal take on it? Uh? 0:45:14.120 --> 0:45:16.400 You should ask where you're like where you're like personally, 0:45:16.440 --> 0:45:18.920 I would never hunt with at you know, at Lettle. Therefore, 0:45:18.960 --> 0:45:20.759 no one should like that wouldn't be something that's going 0:45:20.800 --> 0:45:23.080 to roll through your head. No, it wouldn't roll through 0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:26.200 my head. But but then that gets to another topic. Maybe. 0:45:26.239 --> 0:45:29.080 I mean, that's just my style of leadership. It's it's 0:45:29.080 --> 0:45:33.320 a team effort. There's no way I could be director 0:45:33.360 --> 0:45:36.479 without really great people around me, and so for them 0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:40.440 to be good, I feel like it's better to turn 0:45:40.640 --> 0:45:43.200 to to push it down. But Greg, do I really 0:45:43.239 --> 0:45:45.600 do that or do I just hope I do? No, 0:45:45.840 --> 0:45:48.360 You're good at it. And I think I think the 0:45:48.400 --> 0:45:52.239 other thing that this piece, the opinion piece, the other 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:55.480 thing that comes into this is is our science work 0:45:55.560 --> 0:45:58.959 absolutely back to sort of our core role as he's 0:45:59.239 --> 0:46:02.160 trust man will hold that thought for mixing that we'll 0:46:02.200 --> 0:46:05.560 get into that good. Um, because that's just that that 0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:10.360 is also a hard word. Yeah, um, which one science 0:46:10.440 --> 0:46:13.960 or man who's got science on their side. Everybody's got 0:46:14.000 --> 0:46:17.000 science on the side. Yeah, Well, and both sides of whatever. 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:20.040 When you're talking about passion, people coming to us with 0:46:20.680 --> 0:46:27.399 a passionate you know, opinion, they both sides have. They 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:31.320 come with science too because they know that that that 0:46:31.440 --> 0:46:33.360 we are in the realm of science. And so that 0:46:33.400 --> 0:46:36.759 with the conversation is not just about I like this 0:46:36.880 --> 0:46:39.840 or I like that, it's I want this to happen 0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:42.719 based on this science. Yeah, but I think what's what 0:46:42.760 --> 0:46:44.200 we're getting this a little bit in a minute. But 0:46:44.320 --> 0:46:49.000 what scientific is incredibly unscientific and its social science is science? 0:46:49.040 --> 0:46:50.719 Oh yeah, there you go. It's a lot of there's 0:46:50.760 --> 0:46:53.040 a lot of social science tied up into science. But 0:46:53.080 --> 0:46:56.080 when you said that, you liked that everyone's engaged. Really 0:46:56.680 --> 0:46:59.440 so when when there's a hot button issue, I mean 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:01.680 I have to there's a hot button issue, you have 0:47:01.920 --> 0:47:06.239 a hearing right or like a public comment period, and 0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:09.319 you come in and there's right everyone's in there ready 0:47:09.320 --> 0:47:13.600 to kill them kill each other over this thing. You 0:47:13.600 --> 0:47:16.880 have people that like take wolves like that that incites 0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:19.200 a lot of passion. You have people who are like, 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:22.120 you know, kill them all that God sort them out. 0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:25.560 People who are like, you know, wolves are you know, 0:47:25.600 --> 0:47:29.560 are higher than unicorns on the list of what sacred 0:47:29.960 --> 0:47:33.239 and um, and you're like, oh great, everybody showed up. 0:47:33.320 --> 0:47:36.720 I'm so happy they have opinions. I am. Well, I mean, think, okay, 0:47:37.000 --> 0:47:40.000 just think about that. UM would if we showed up 0:47:40.160 --> 0:47:42.279 to talk about wolves and there were three people in 0:47:42.320 --> 0:47:46.279 the room. I would turn to Greg and say, we 0:47:46.400 --> 0:47:50.280 did something wrong. We missed the boat here, we missed 0:47:50.280 --> 0:47:52.600 reaching out to people. If only three people show up 0:47:52.640 --> 0:47:56.800 talking about wolves, Yeah, wouldn't that be scarier? I mean seriously, 0:47:57.000 --> 0:47:59.800 it would meet. Would that mean that people just uh, 0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:03.760 we don't really care? Do you get overall good participation? 0:48:04.160 --> 0:48:07.239 Like if if it's not something like a wolf or 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:13.360 a you know, buffalo or something big and charismatic, you know, 0:48:13.560 --> 0:48:16.239 like when there's a meeting on I don't know, give 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:18.640 me an example. Will be an example of something that 0:48:18.760 --> 0:48:23.680 doesn't get a lot of public excitement. Well, it doesn't 0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:27.680 happen every two years. So we set our regulations every 0:48:27.719 --> 0:48:31.239 two years are hunting regulations, and so that we go 0:48:31.360 --> 0:48:34.279 through all like the quotas and everything else we go through. 0:48:34.400 --> 0:48:37.440 It's a all the regulation booklets. I mean, it's all 0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:40.360 that information has done every two years in our season 0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:46.239 setting process. And there's portions of that that are always controversial. 0:48:46.280 --> 0:48:49.439 But there are some pieces of that drop that will 0:48:49.680 --> 0:48:53.120 will hold the meeting where we'll outnumber the public participants 0:48:53.160 --> 0:48:55.759 at the meeting. There'll be five f WP people and 0:48:56.080 --> 0:48:58.479 two U yes. So no, that is a bad sign. 0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:04.120 Regulation gosh, you think we'd all show up for regulations meeting. 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:09.600 I haven't shown up neither. But to be fair too, 0:49:09.640 --> 0:49:12.439 I mean we are like other agencies who are trying 0:49:12.480 --> 0:49:15.680 to think of are there other ways to engage the public? 0:49:15.719 --> 0:49:19.360 If if people stop showing up at public hearings, should 0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:22.440 we be reaching out to them in different ways? All right? 0:49:22.480 --> 0:49:25.680 I want to I wanna move back a little bit. 0:49:25.760 --> 0:49:29.040 So there's something I want to hit on more like precisely, 0:49:29.960 --> 0:49:35.960 um the funding question? Ye? Like? Like seriously, how like 0:49:36.120 --> 0:49:38.480 what does an eight How does an agency view the fact? 0:49:39.040 --> 0:49:42.560 How does an agency view the idea that all people's 0:49:42.600 --> 0:49:45.760 opinions matter? Right? Everyone should have an opinion at the table, 0:49:46.280 --> 0:49:50.560 but then only some of the people are funding the structure? 0:49:51.560 --> 0:49:54.439 M h, what's your like? How do you view that? 0:49:55.120 --> 0:49:57.000 Is that viewed as a problem? Is if you just 0:49:57.040 --> 0:49:59.520 like a fact of life? Do you feel that people 0:49:59.600 --> 0:50:03.520 within a state, fish modelife agency do they sort of 0:50:03.600 --> 0:50:08.560 overserve the payers? Are there is there an idea that 0:50:08.600 --> 0:50:12.040 like those are the ones we should keep happy because 0:50:12.040 --> 0:50:14.960 they're paying for it all? How do you wrestle that? 0:50:15.280 --> 0:50:16.840 I'm not saying, you know, I know what I like? 0:50:17.239 --> 0:50:19.879 Where are you going with that I don't know, I'm asking. 0:50:19.960 --> 0:50:22.839 It's got to be something that comes up totally. Yeah, 0:50:22.840 --> 0:50:25.120 I mean that's a fair question. So yes, it's a 0:50:25.160 --> 0:50:27.520 fact of life because it is what it is, it's 0:50:27.560 --> 0:50:32.600 what we've had in place. Um. Yes, I think we 0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:37.840 pay you know, in all fairness, we pay close attention 0:50:37.920 --> 0:50:42.120 to what's our traditional base. So the people who pay, yes, 0:50:42.160 --> 0:50:44.320 we have to pay attention to them, and I believe 0:50:44.360 --> 0:50:49.520 we always will. With that said, Um, they can't be 0:50:49.600 --> 0:50:53.920 the only voice if if other people comment. Um. I 0:50:54.000 --> 0:50:56.479 sometimes get people asking me like, how could you meet 0:50:56.520 --> 0:50:59.879 with such and such? And my answer is, because I'm 0:50:59.880 --> 0:51:02.560 a public servant, I meet with who asks me to 0:51:02.600 --> 0:51:05.720 meet with them. You know, I can't cut a voice 0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:10.160 out because it's not popular. So I believe we have 0:51:10.320 --> 0:51:15.520 to listen to all voices. But I mean, yeah, we 0:51:16.680 --> 0:51:22.480 there is a certain skew toward our traditional base because 0:51:22.680 --> 0:51:27.480 that's who we're used to working with. And I would say, um, 0:51:27.680 --> 0:51:31.040 we don't want to lose them. I mean, we are 0:51:31.360 --> 0:51:40.480 in the business of perpetuating of um, encouraging getting outside 0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:44.400 that experience outside. We want people to hunt, we want 0:51:44.440 --> 0:51:47.439 people to fish. That's not the only thing we want 0:51:47.440 --> 0:51:51.920 them to do. But um, we do want that heritage 0:51:51.920 --> 0:51:57.000 in that tradition to continue. So is it tricky sometimes yes, 0:51:57.120 --> 0:52:00.600 I mean you know it's we're we're perpetuating a tradition. 0:52:01.440 --> 0:52:05.640 At the same time, we use science and we try 0:52:05.680 --> 0:52:09.080 to listen to all perspectives to come up with the 0:52:09.080 --> 0:52:14.440 best solution we can best proposal. Is it a lot harder, 0:52:14.920 --> 0:52:16.920 Let's like take that from it. Like, in a state 0:52:16.960 --> 0:52:22.279 like this, um, hunting is a big economic driver, right, 0:52:22.560 --> 0:52:25.160 So there's a lot of economic activity that occurs around hunting. 0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:27.719 So you could look like one can go and make 0:52:27.719 --> 0:52:30.680 this argument. They can look at dear chronic wasting disease, right, 0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:33.359 Like chronic wasting disease could come and have a big 0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:37.239 impact on public perception of hunting and participation and could 0:52:37.280 --> 0:52:40.000 cost communities. Like there's a community and they have high 0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:42.800 sea w D prevalence, people are gonna go hunt somewhere 0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:45.239 else and that is bad for business for people to 0:52:45.320 --> 0:52:48.560 have hotels and right, so all this stuff goes on 0:52:48.680 --> 0:52:50.120 around it and you look and you'd be like, man, 0:52:50.200 --> 0:52:52.480 we need to protect this thing. Um, I think I 0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:56.480 look at the thing envy about Alaska for instances, how 0:52:56.800 --> 0:53:03.320 jealously they guard their salmon sources because commercial huge commercial business, 0:53:03.520 --> 0:53:06.520 huge recreational business, Like don't go to Alaska and mess 0:53:06.560 --> 0:53:09.359 with salmon, Like it's not gonna go well for you. 0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:15.160 But what about like when you want to Yeah, so 0:53:15.200 --> 0:53:17.719 then you take like, oh, there's a big problem with hummingbirds. 0:53:18.840 --> 0:53:21.560 Um is that tough? Is it? Like hard to get 0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:25.920 like the the agency momentum and the money and the 0:53:26.000 --> 0:53:28.200 support to go do something where no one can come 0:53:28.200 --> 0:53:31.560 and argue to you about the economic impact of hummingbirds. 0:53:31.640 --> 0:53:38.120 Do hummingbirds tend to get like forgotten? Um? Not them specifically, 0:53:38.200 --> 0:53:40.479 but you know what I'm saying, Like if people are like, hey, 0:53:40.640 --> 0:53:44.720 hunters pay for this, elk is economic driver all this stuff, 0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:46.600 Like what do you do, Like, how do you begin 0:53:46.680 --> 0:53:49.680 to think about and address issues of people like that. 0:53:49.760 --> 0:53:51.560 We're not I'm not calling you up the buggy about it. 0:53:51.560 --> 0:53:53.439 I guess that people aren't. I'm guessing that people don't 0:53:53.440 --> 0:53:56.080 every day call you to make sure hummingbirds are okay. Yeah, Well, 0:53:56.160 --> 0:53:58.600 I think about a bunch of ways. One, I mean, 0:53:58.680 --> 0:54:02.799 that's the whole point of recovering America's Wildlife Act and 0:54:02.880 --> 0:54:06.440 all the precursors to precursors to that, you know, teaming 0:54:06.440 --> 0:54:11.040 with wildlife Cara, Blue Ribbon Panel, whatever, or the states 0:54:11.080 --> 0:54:14.960 that have a mechanism to help pay for to add 0:54:15.120 --> 0:54:19.120 the funding of a wildlife agency so they can get 0:54:19.160 --> 0:54:24.320 to um hummingbirds and our species. You hadn't even heard 0:54:24.360 --> 0:54:28.640 of um so, so that would be helpful and I 0:54:28.680 --> 0:54:35.640 think it's needed. Absolutely the challenge I have like an 0:54:35.880 --> 0:54:39.720 outside additional well, I think so so that we can 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:43.879 get to those other species that we haven't. I mean, 0:54:43.920 --> 0:54:47.759 what in Montana we have? How many species do we have? 0:54:48.440 --> 0:54:54.200 Greg a lot of wildlife and you got nine big, 0:54:55.719 --> 0:55:00.840 we have five hundred, we have five four. I just 0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:03.560 happen to have this at my fingertip, uh fish and 0:55:03.600 --> 0:55:05.759 wildlife species in the state, and how many of those are? 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:15.000 Then you realized we have a uhi four total fish 0:55:15.000 --> 0:55:20.279 and wildlife species and eighty game species. But here's the thing. 0:55:20.320 --> 0:55:24.920 What about ones that are like uh not as curious? 0:55:26.360 --> 0:55:29.800 Take like the short tailed weasel. Now he's non game, 0:55:31.160 --> 0:55:34.319 but take is permissible. So is he in that? Is 0:55:34.360 --> 0:55:37.799 he in the eighty or the five? UM I might 0:55:38.239 --> 0:55:41.719 so I would assume that he would be in the 0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:47.399 eighty if we have a permissible take. But we have seven. 0:55:47.480 --> 0:55:52.480 We have seventeen species that are federally protected or warranted. 0:55:52.960 --> 0:55:57.080 Federally protected or warranted, So we have responsibility over all 0:55:57.160 --> 0:56:03.040 five hundred species, and if we had better funding have 0:56:03.160 --> 0:56:06.520 not as many. You maybe wouldn't have seventeen, although that's 0:56:06.560 --> 0:56:09.920 not that high, um, that are federally protected. I mean 0:56:09.960 --> 0:56:13.160 the point is, I think if we had more capacity 0:56:13.200 --> 0:56:17.279 and resources to get to the other species of you know, 0:56:17.920 --> 0:56:23.319 to the five hundred, then um, I would hope if 0:56:23.280 --> 0:56:27.640 fewer need that federal protection. Well. And so one another 0:56:28.760 --> 0:56:33.120 twist in this is of our budget goes to the 0:56:33.160 --> 0:56:37.560 wildlife species. Management of the wildlife species of the budget 0:56:37.600 --> 0:56:42.799 goes And that's why I'm guessing or fishing game that 0:56:42.840 --> 0:56:46.960 people pursue the game species plus the the ones that 0:56:47.200 --> 0:56:52.480 either require statement they require state management, like there's species 0:56:52.480 --> 0:56:56.120 of special concern or they're federally protected. And so that 0:56:56.200 --> 0:57:01.640 answers your question of UM, people who buy licenses and 0:57:02.040 --> 0:57:06.479 or ammunition or fishing gear are I think they got 0:57:06.520 --> 0:57:10.680 a pretty good return. Yeah that's interesting, man, But I'm 0:57:10.680 --> 0:57:14.560 thankful for them too. Oh yeah, they're not doing anything wrong. 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:20.720 There's buying their license. Yeah, there's a lot of like 0:57:20.920 --> 0:57:24.320 you know, in in our world, we hear all these 0:57:24.400 --> 0:57:30.080 different ideas people throw out about other ways to get, 0:57:30.160 --> 0:57:33.800 other ways to other people should pay to, right, And 0:57:33.800 --> 0:57:35.360 I don't even know if I like that at or not, 0:57:36.040 --> 0:57:37.880 because I don't know if we've played that all the 0:57:37.920 --> 0:57:45.360 way out, should we? Oh? Okay, So I'll give it 0:57:45.720 --> 0:57:47.880 like I'll give a commonly held perception about it to 0:57:48.040 --> 0:57:51.440 be that right now, all this money comes in and 0:57:52.320 --> 0:57:55.240 goes to either like the listed stuff or it goes 0:57:55.280 --> 0:57:59.000 the game right, research on game um enforcement, all this 0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:04.000 kind of stuff. So some people it often comes up, 0:58:04.040 --> 0:58:05.960 this idea, and Janice brought it up earlier that there 0:58:05.960 --> 0:58:08.800 should be some there's this kind of like this nascent 0:58:08.960 --> 0:58:13.680 concept of a backpack tax, meaning that there should that 0:58:13.800 --> 0:58:18.400 other people should be paying money. Um. You, when you 0:58:18.400 --> 0:58:21.360 buy a backpack, it should be taxed the same way 0:58:21.400 --> 0:58:23.280 if you buy a rifle, it's tax, and that that 0:58:23.360 --> 0:58:25.600 tax from your backpack should go to help pay for 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:29.840 or binoculars. They're not rolled in, No, they're not. Are 0:58:29.840 --> 0:58:32.560 they rifle scopes? I think are, but I don't think 0:58:32.560 --> 0:58:36.680 but not it doesn't catch binoculars. So but but when 0:58:36.680 --> 0:58:38.840 I say backpacktacks, I don't mean like, let's just say 0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:42.160 I don't mean like specifically backpacks, well like taxes on 0:58:42.360 --> 0:58:45.440 other stuff to help flood money. But I think people 0:58:45.440 --> 0:58:49.160 bring up as people who have a strong voice that 0:58:49.280 --> 0:58:51.400 already have a seat at the table. And if you 0:58:51.600 --> 0:58:55.000 like hunting fish, you put you Typically some states I 0:58:55.000 --> 0:58:57.360 wouldn't say this is true, but generally if you hunting fish, 0:58:57.360 --> 0:59:00.000 you have a big seat at the table. Um You're 0:59:00.000 --> 0:59:03.240 your needs are being heard. That by bringing in all 0:59:03.280 --> 0:59:08.360 the payers, that people think that these other payers are 0:59:08.360 --> 0:59:12.000 going to come with expectations. So do you think so 0:59:12.120 --> 0:59:15.000 those people think of it as a ply and there 0:59:15.040 --> 0:59:18.280 are only so many slices, and so they're not going 0:59:18.320 --> 0:59:20.680 to want more people there because when their slice gets 0:59:20.720 --> 0:59:23.560 a little thinner, I don't thinky being how much attention 0:59:23.600 --> 0:59:26.240 can be paid to your knees. Yeah, but I don't 0:59:26.240 --> 0:59:28.959 think of it as supply. I mean you can look 0:59:29.000 --> 0:59:31.560 at it that way, and I get it, and I 0:59:31.600 --> 0:59:35.960 think we have to pay attention to that. So um fish, 0:59:36.120 --> 0:59:40.080 state fish and wildlife agencies. I think we need to 0:59:40.080 --> 0:59:43.760 do everything we can to provide the best service we 0:59:43.880 --> 0:59:50.200 can to the people who pay absolutely and if we 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:55.200 could grow capacity, then we could pay better attention to 0:59:55.240 --> 0:59:58.800 some of the other species, and that funding could help there. 0:59:59.320 --> 1:00:03.520 So I don't you know. I can I appreciate the 1:00:03.520 --> 1:00:09.080 worry of losing some power or influence on the decisions, 1:00:09.760 --> 1:00:11.959 but I think that looks at it as a pie 1:00:12.080 --> 1:00:16.720 instead of realizing actually that it's more than that. It's 1:00:16.760 --> 1:00:20.560 not a finite resource. It's something that if we had 1:00:20.600 --> 1:00:24.760 more money, we could build capacity and address other things 1:00:24.960 --> 1:00:30.520 as well, and not let go of our traditional constituency. 1:00:30.800 --> 1:00:32.920 We still need to pay attention to them. That's not 1:00:33.400 --> 1:00:36.160 the point. Isn't to move away from what we've has done, 1:00:36.200 --> 1:00:40.560 it's to build more. I think where that question becomes 1:00:40.640 --> 1:00:45.280 interesting is um probably the last word, like one of 1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:49.960 the last words. Hear wolves, right, wolves? So let's just say, 1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:52.720 let's say that, do you have a how do you 1:00:52.880 --> 1:00:56.160 add noises? Anything? Can do a vehicle and really far 1:00:56.160 --> 1:00:57.840 away though, have you ever heard this? He'll do it? 1:00:57.840 --> 1:01:04.400 Can I hear it way off in the wind? That's good. 1:01:04.880 --> 1:01:06.960 It sounds like he's like five miles away. It's sort 1:01:07.000 --> 1:01:11.520 of amazing to hear it in real life. It's just 1:01:12.040 --> 1:01:17.440 remarkable since chills your neck. Uh, But I don't think 1:01:17.440 --> 1:01:23.320 he can do it. He do a wolf way off. Ye, No, Phil, 1:01:28.160 --> 1:01:32.800 good job pill Um. Okay, take wolves. No, let's just 1:01:32.840 --> 1:01:37.080 say thanks for picking an easy man. Um, take wolves. 1:01:37.120 --> 1:01:39.240 Let's say that there's a thing you have to buy like, 1:01:39.280 --> 1:01:41.560 but let's just there's some enforceable way to do this, 1:01:41.680 --> 1:01:45.440 some hypothetical, weird way in which you have a you 1:01:45.480 --> 1:01:50.360 need a license to see a wolf. Okay. I don't 1:01:50.360 --> 1:01:51.840 know how you do this, but it just minds up 1:01:51.880 --> 1:01:53.960 being the same way you need a license to fish, 1:01:54.280 --> 1:01:55.919 you need a license to see a wolf. I don't 1:01:55.920 --> 1:01:59.080 know if I like where you're going. Hear me, so, 1:01:59.480 --> 1:02:02.640 and you say this license is twenty bucks, right, And 1:02:02.680 --> 1:02:08.640 all of a sudden you're selling hundreds of thousands of 1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:13.400 these wolf seeing licenses, okay, and it becomes a big thing, 1:02:13.640 --> 1:02:15.320 and a big part of your budget comes to people 1:02:15.320 --> 1:02:19.440 buying wolf seeing licenses. At that point, at some point, 1:02:19.520 --> 1:02:22.360 there's gonna be this like I use the word reckoning earlier. 1:02:22.360 --> 1:02:25.960 At some point there's gonna be like this reckoning between 1:02:27.120 --> 1:02:29.400 big game like big game hunters who want to see 1:02:29.400 --> 1:02:32.440 wolf I'm just speaking very generally. I mean, there are 1:02:32.440 --> 1:02:37.000 many folds within this, but I would think it's it's 1:02:37.040 --> 1:02:42.040 safe to say that in general, big game hunters harbor 1:02:42.160 --> 1:02:46.680 some apprehensions about having to what they would qualify as 1:02:47.120 --> 1:02:52.960 too many wolves on the landscape because it's can be 1:02:53.120 --> 1:02:56.480 detrimental to deer and elk hunting, because it can lead 1:02:56.480 --> 1:02:59.480 to declines and deer knock. They would that's an argument 1:02:59.480 --> 1:03:04.600 they would make. Other people would argue that, um, it 1:03:04.680 --> 1:03:07.760 doesn't really matter, let nature play its course, blah blah blah, 1:03:07.880 --> 1:03:10.439 and we shouldn't have any harvest wolves and there should 1:03:10.480 --> 1:03:12.720 just be a many wolves out there as possible now 1:03:12.760 --> 1:03:15.680 the minute that if you have a wolf viewing license, 1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:18.120 all of a sudden you're gonna have you'd have like 1:03:18.200 --> 1:03:23.320 this paying constituency of people, and you would probably feel 1:03:23.320 --> 1:03:28.040 a pressure to maximize wolf sightings because you could the 1:03:28.040 --> 1:03:29.880 same way people feel pressure now to have a lot 1:03:29.880 --> 1:03:33.680 of deer in alcout to satisfy guys like me, Like, 1:03:33.800 --> 1:03:37.240 can you imagine a situation like this where having more 1:03:37.320 --> 1:03:40.959 payers come in with more opinions that you would where 1:03:41.000 --> 1:03:43.800 you where it winds up being that, uh, where it 1:03:43.840 --> 1:03:45.800 winds up being that there is a battle. It's not 1:03:45.840 --> 1:03:49.439 like that the pie gets bigger and bigger and bigger. Well, 1:03:49.480 --> 1:03:57.240 we already get those opinions now all those opinions anyway, UM, 1:03:57.440 --> 1:04:01.439 and most species are managed now, I mean a lot 1:04:01.480 --> 1:04:08.760 of species are conservation dependent or well just that we 1:04:09.480 --> 1:04:14.760 as humans have intervened on behalf of a number of species, 1:04:14.760 --> 1:04:17.480 whether to help recover them, like think of grizzly bears 1:04:17.480 --> 1:04:21.280 and wolves. We wouldn't have the numbers we have now 1:04:21.320 --> 1:04:25.400 in the landscape if we hadn't spent so much time 1:04:25.440 --> 1:04:28.800 and money trying to recover them. Yeah, that's a really 1:04:28.880 --> 1:04:31.000 good point. It's an interesting point because I think that 1:04:31.080 --> 1:04:32.840 some people fail to see that. They feel that those 1:04:32.880 --> 1:04:38.120 are there in the absence of action. Right, No, I'm 1:04:39.480 --> 1:04:42.479 conservation I like that conservation dependent is there because someone 1:04:42.560 --> 1:04:45.080 is paying to have them there. Well, yeah, we've we've 1:04:45.160 --> 1:04:48.480 managed we have you know, we've touched them in some way. 1:04:49.280 --> 1:04:53.040 UM and wolves, right, you know, I mean we reintroduce them, 1:04:53.040 --> 1:04:56.280 not we not fish, wildlife and parks. Because I've had 1:04:56.320 --> 1:05:00.240 somebody point their finger in my chest furious about me 1:05:00.320 --> 1:05:04.640 and reintroducing wolves, and I think, yeah, yeah, to take 1:05:04.720 --> 1:05:07.080 I can't take credit for that. I'm not quite that old. 1:05:07.280 --> 1:05:14.120 But anyway, it was real quick. That was UM an 1:05:14.200 --> 1:05:17.680 idea that was initiated at the federal level into varying 1:05:17.720 --> 1:05:25.400 degrees that the impacted states were responded, Yeah, we're brought 1:05:25.440 --> 1:05:28.520 in and it all happen. It was it was something 1:05:28.560 --> 1:05:30.640 that came from the federal level, right, did not come 1:05:30.680 --> 1:05:34.040 from a state that states either had to like figure 1:05:34.080 --> 1:05:36.520 out how to work with it or there was no 1:05:36.560 --> 1:05:39.160 option to not figure out how to work with it. Right, 1:05:39.280 --> 1:05:45.360 it was happening. So you have species that we've helped recover, um. 1:05:46.160 --> 1:05:49.080 And then you know, obviously the species that we have 1:05:49.200 --> 1:05:54.760 seasons on are allowed take there some management there. Um. 1:05:54.800 --> 1:05:57.760 So we just have had a hand in so many 1:05:57.800 --> 1:06:00.640 species across the landscape. Think of fit shouldn't think of 1:06:01.080 --> 1:06:05.040 water and returning you know in stream flows or the 1:06:05.080 --> 1:06:10.000 habitat you know, the whole point of habitat conservation. Um, 1:06:10.040 --> 1:06:11.880 we've just had a hand in a lot of that. 1:06:12.160 --> 1:06:18.160 So where am I going with that? Just there's it's 1:06:18.240 --> 1:06:22.800 complicated first of all, and the science has complicated and 1:06:22.840 --> 1:06:29.440 the social pieces are complicated. I don't see, um the 1:06:29.520 --> 1:06:34.480 ability you know, were you to have a wildlife viewing license, 1:06:34.840 --> 1:06:37.960 which I question that because it's a public resource, but 1:06:38.080 --> 1:06:40.439 there are some Yeah, there's a license you got together 1:06:40.600 --> 1:06:45.200 like the McNeil Bear Viewing area up in Catmire somewhere 1:06:45.200 --> 1:06:47.040 you gotta like buy you gotta like apply for a 1:06:47.040 --> 1:06:48.840 tag to look at that go in and see them 1:06:49.600 --> 1:06:52.800 to go into the area. Ye okay, so um, but 1:06:52.800 --> 1:06:54.720 that's more of a it's an access to it. It's 1:06:54.720 --> 1:06:56.400 not like you're buying a license to look at your 1:06:56.760 --> 1:06:59.280 access you're getting You're getting a permit to go let's say, 1:06:59.680 --> 1:07:02.560 just like to get a permit to full the Grand Canyon, right, Yeah, 1:07:02.800 --> 1:07:05.400 So it's not a rock viewing license, it's a permitive 1:07:05.840 --> 1:07:08.160 right when I mean, you know, if we were to 1:07:08.160 --> 1:07:10.600 play this out too, when we get so much pressure 1:07:10.640 --> 1:07:14.400 in certain places, that might happen. You know, how many 1:07:14.440 --> 1:07:16.720 people do you want to when you love a resource 1:07:16.760 --> 1:07:19.800 to death? Can that happen? But so say you even 1:07:19.880 --> 1:07:25.240 have that kind of input, you're still I can't imagine 1:07:25.280 --> 1:07:30.960 a day when state fish and wildlife agencies don't need 1:07:31.480 --> 1:07:36.720 hunters to help manage a species. I don't want. I 1:07:36.760 --> 1:07:41.200 wouldn't want to make our our staff, our employees go 1:07:41.320 --> 1:07:43.560 out and be the I mean, I remember the days 1:07:43.600 --> 1:07:47.720 of the firing squad of bison coming out of Yellowstone 1:07:48.160 --> 1:07:53.440 versus having hunters do it. So I don't see I 1:07:53.560 --> 1:07:56.760 just playing it out. I don't see hunting going away 1:07:56.760 --> 1:07:59.920 for a number of reasons, but one is that management 1:08:00.000 --> 1:08:03.240 an aspect, and I think it'd be ugly to have 1:08:03.560 --> 1:08:08.800 firing squads instead of having that opportunity to be outside. 1:08:08.840 --> 1:08:13.480 And also this sustainability point, what's in your freezer? You know? 1:08:13.520 --> 1:08:15.760 I have elk in my freezer and I don't. I 1:08:15.800 --> 1:08:19.559 don't typically buy meat, and I think many people who 1:08:19.640 --> 1:08:23.679 hunt and live in Montana they hunt in part for that. 1:08:23.720 --> 1:08:26.960 They hunt for the experience, but they also want the food. 1:08:27.479 --> 1:08:31.439 Do you guys didn always strongly advocate like pro hunting 1:08:31.920 --> 1:08:33.960 or I guess not so much that you'd be advocating 1:08:34.000 --> 1:08:37.599 pro hunting, But when it seems like lately every time, um, 1:08:37.680 --> 1:08:41.240 we have an opportunity, there's like an anti trapping bill 1:08:41.439 --> 1:08:45.040 that seems to come up. Right, So they're probably not 1:08:45.200 --> 1:08:48.160 a huge part of that fifty million dollars that comes in, 1:08:48.240 --> 1:08:50.720 but there's some and some people look at it like 1:08:50.760 --> 1:08:53.120 that's just the edge and if that goes, then the 1:08:53.160 --> 1:08:56.800 next thing is bow hunting or whatever. So does does 1:08:56.920 --> 1:09:01.320 FWP always stand at that front line and try to 1:09:01.360 --> 1:09:04.439 protect that? Yeah, that depends who you ask I would 1:09:04.479 --> 1:09:09.360 say many trappers would argue we don't enough. The anti 1:09:09.479 --> 1:09:13.559 trapping people would say we do too much. Um, I 1:09:13.600 --> 1:09:20.200 think we it's a balance that's that's not easy. We 1:09:20.280 --> 1:09:24.920 support trapping as a harvest heritage. We support trapping, and 1:09:25.040 --> 1:09:26.680 I don't think we wanted we don't want it to 1:09:26.720 --> 1:09:31.240 go away as a part of our heritage. At the 1:09:31.360 --> 1:09:35.040 same time, it's I don't think we should be too 1:09:35.080 --> 1:09:38.559 far out on that on the front line there because 1:09:38.840 --> 1:09:43.680 we're we're not set up to be an advocacy organization. 1:09:44.160 --> 1:09:48.080 An example is when there's like a trapping initiative, it's 1:09:48.080 --> 1:09:52.400 against the law for our agency to take a stance 1:09:52.439 --> 1:09:56.559 on an initiative. We don't step into that political fray. 1:09:56.840 --> 1:09:59.599 Remember when the when they were a few years ago, 1:09:59.760 --> 1:10:04.760 there was that there was a public vote out referendum 1:10:04.760 --> 1:10:07.200 and it was a band trapping on public land. And 1:10:07.240 --> 1:10:11.320 I feel like it was someone within Phishing Game who 1:10:11.680 --> 1:10:15.479 was talking about, we don't have the money to deal 1:10:15.800 --> 1:10:22.280 with all of the beaver complaints that would happen if 1:10:22.280 --> 1:10:26.320 people couldn't trap beavers. So that was before I was director, 1:10:26.880 --> 1:10:31.000 But I think we um we got challenged actually on 1:10:31.000 --> 1:10:35.439 on um a piece of of well, I think it 1:10:35.520 --> 1:10:38.479 was like a trailer or something. We got challenged on 1:10:38.560 --> 1:10:44.439 going too far an advocacy toward UM trapping, right, So 1:10:44.600 --> 1:10:47.360 someone pointed out, like, you're not that's not your job, 1:10:47.479 --> 1:10:50.400 stay out of it. Not you specifically, but someone within 1:10:50.439 --> 1:10:53.080 the agency. So we have a we have a fur 1:10:53.240 --> 1:10:59.240 bear trailer that we we we loaned to trapping groups 1:10:59.280 --> 1:11:04.240 to do helped do education on trapping. And the circumstance 1:11:04.320 --> 1:11:07.920 was this trailer was being used by a trapping group 1:11:07.960 --> 1:11:10.599 that was also at the time where they were using 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:14.519 the trailer, they were also they were also advocating in 1:11:14.680 --> 1:11:21.080 opposition to this UH ballot initiative. So the we were 1:11:21.439 --> 1:11:24.320 we were challenged because we were they looked at us 1:11:24.360 --> 1:11:28.000 as having playing politics right, And so as soon as 1:11:28.080 --> 1:11:31.240 what the specifics of that, as soon as we found 1:11:31.280 --> 1:11:34.759 out that that we were in that sort of area conflict, 1:11:34.760 --> 1:11:38.320 we just took the trailer back. But that wasn't enough 1:11:38.400 --> 1:11:44.880 to ward off lawsuit. But in that situation you can't 1:11:44.920 --> 1:11:48.000 So let's say there's a trapping band situation, you can't 1:11:48.120 --> 1:11:51.160 come out and say, um, you can't come out the 1:11:51.200 --> 1:11:52.559 voters and be like, I can tell you one thing. 1:11:53.120 --> 1:11:57.880 Fish Walllife parks don't like it. That's really an initiative 1:11:57.920 --> 1:12:00.559 and that's a that's a that's a statue you. So, 1:12:00.640 --> 1:12:02.840 I don't know if that's different in other states, but 1:12:02.920 --> 1:12:07.600 that's it. But at the time, at the moment, we 1:12:07.680 --> 1:12:11.160 do say, um, we think trapping is an important part 1:12:11.200 --> 1:12:14.680 of our harvest heritage, and the harvest heritage comes from 1:12:14.680 --> 1:12:18.720 the Constitution. That's why we say it that way. So 1:12:18.760 --> 1:12:21.599 it sounds like a very buzzy word like it would 1:12:21.600 --> 1:12:23.679 be like cool to say these days, but you're saying 1:12:23.720 --> 1:12:29.280 that it's been, that's been. Yeah. So but what you raise, though, 1:12:29.960 --> 1:12:37.639 is a really good question on what's the department's role when, um, 1:12:37.680 --> 1:12:44.480 we see societal changes and when you know, perceived ethics 1:12:44.640 --> 1:12:49.679 of trapping or a certain method of take or when 1:12:49.760 --> 1:12:53.720 there's a shift, what is our role and how do 1:12:53.960 --> 1:12:56.800 we play into that? And I I don't have a 1:12:56.840 --> 1:12:59.280 good answer to that, but I think you've you've hit 1:12:59.360 --> 1:13:03.880 something that we totally have to pay attention to. We 1:13:03.960 --> 1:13:11.120 know our educational programs are really important, trapping education, hunter education, UM, 1:13:11.320 --> 1:13:15.640 aquatic aid, all the parks. We do a lot of 1:13:15.760 --> 1:13:19.000 education in our parks. So so I mean, you know, 1:13:19.040 --> 1:13:23.760 there's a role for education and and continuing this sort 1:13:23.760 --> 1:13:29.479 of heritage peace education doesn't count as direct advocacy, well, 1:13:29.520 --> 1:13:33.360 and it doesn't matter. It's it's the length the legislator, 1:13:33.600 --> 1:13:38.280 the statutes specific to like ballot initiatives or something like. 1:13:38.400 --> 1:13:41.800 I mean, so we we do we provide this so 1:13:41.960 --> 1:13:45.439 this trailer, this trapping trailer for bearer trailer, we talked 1:13:45.479 --> 1:13:48.280 about that. We we loan that out all the time 1:13:48.840 --> 1:13:53.320 and we provide grand money to um I guess Montrana 1:13:53.360 --> 1:13:56.080 Trappers Association is a group to help with some of 1:13:56.120 --> 1:14:01.120 their educational programming. So we do on that in that standpoint, 1:14:01.560 --> 1:14:05.480 we're supportive of that on all sorts of different fronts. 1:14:05.520 --> 1:14:10.360 It's the when there's a ballot initiative specific and that's 1:14:10.520 --> 1:14:12.960 it's just come up in the last few years with 1:14:13.000 --> 1:14:17.360 the trapping initiatives. That's where we don't take a stance. 1:14:17.760 --> 1:14:19.479 We're prohibited by a lot of take a stance. And 1:14:19.520 --> 1:14:22.240 I think that's to your point. I think that's what 1:14:22.400 --> 1:14:26.280 raises some people's frustrations. They say, well, you're the agency 1:14:26.320 --> 1:14:30.599 that licenses licenses this activity, you should be advocating for it, right, 1:14:31.400 --> 1:14:34.200 But then you're iss. You can get a certain point 1:14:35.240 --> 1:14:38.439 where it hits whatever in its process of enactment where 1:14:38.479 --> 1:14:41.559 you're like, right, you're at that point you gotta be like, 1:14:41.600 --> 1:14:43.640 my opinion is now stepping away, and you know what, 1:14:43.760 --> 1:14:45.920 I feel like that happens all the time too, when 1:14:45.920 --> 1:14:48.720 someone doesn't like something we've done, or they don't like 1:14:48.840 --> 1:14:52.360 what we haven't done. Where we're quiet, it's really hard 1:14:52.400 --> 1:14:57.080 to explain to people what our sideboards are to say 1:14:57.280 --> 1:15:01.160 we can't do that, and I nice, I'm thinking like 1:15:01.200 --> 1:15:05.120 with bear management now, I'm thinking of when we UM 1:15:05.720 --> 1:15:09.479 say when a legislator, legislator says, i'd like you to 1:15:09.560 --> 1:15:14.920 spend Pittman Robertson on UM enforcement, and we say, but 1:15:15.080 --> 1:15:18.000 we can't do that because it's not an ELI, it's 1:15:18.040 --> 1:15:23.280 not eligible under Pittman Robertson. It's really hard to describe 1:15:23.320 --> 1:15:27.360 those things. That's where you know, the engaged public, they're passionate, 1:15:28.000 --> 1:15:33.200 that's awesome, but sometimes they don't believe us when we say, well, 1:15:33.240 --> 1:15:36.439 we can't do that under the Endangered Species Actor, we 1:15:36.479 --> 1:15:40.680 can't do that under Pittman Robertson. And but we end 1:15:40.720 --> 1:15:44.040 we can do this. So that's just you know the 1:15:44.120 --> 1:15:47.719 nature of our our work. You know, seldom to someone 1:15:47.720 --> 1:15:50.080 come up to me and say something like, you know, 1:15:50.120 --> 1:15:58.880 who does the hell of a job wildlife? And by 1:15:58.920 --> 1:16:01.240 some I mean and I put gas in my car 1:16:01.320 --> 1:16:03.360 at the gas station and I got lots of comments 1:16:05.120 --> 1:16:10.080 like tearing it up. I find myself in a situation 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:12.200 where I do try to like, um, do try to 1:16:12.200 --> 1:16:14.240 talk not just you guys specifically, but everyone. I try 1:16:14.280 --> 1:16:17.479 to say, like all in all, like when I stepped 1:16:17.479 --> 1:16:20.760 back and sort of look at the country. Um, oh no, 1:16:20.840 --> 1:16:24.200 I feel like fishing gaming agencies like that system works. 1:16:24.720 --> 1:16:26.960 I mean there's some wrinkles here and there, but I 1:16:26.960 --> 1:16:31.160 mean generally everybody can go hunt and fishing, you know, 1:16:31.600 --> 1:16:34.719 like in very like broad general points, like something's functioning 1:16:34.760 --> 1:16:38.920 well and there's mechanisms where you come and follow your complaints. 1:16:39.200 --> 1:16:41.479 But in terms of like no one does anything right? 1:16:41.840 --> 1:16:43.479 Do you guys feel like you should be able to 1:16:43.520 --> 1:16:49.800 take a victory lap about wolves now, because like, by 1:16:49.880 --> 1:16:52.920 and large, they're pretty well they're not all gone. They 1:16:52.960 --> 1:16:58.160 didn't go back extinct, right. Uh. People aren't super frustrated 1:16:58.280 --> 1:17:00.840 because when they got to like stand helplessly buy and 1:17:00.840 --> 1:17:03.680 watch them slaughter all their cows out in the in 1:17:03.720 --> 1:17:07.479 the by the haystack, it's like, did you get to 1:17:07.479 --> 1:17:10.679 go like I told you? No, No, we never get 1:17:10.720 --> 1:17:12.759 to do that. No. I mean I think we should 1:17:12.760 --> 1:17:16.240 celebrate recovery when they're Yeah, you can celebrate it, But 1:17:16.960 --> 1:17:20.439 um no, I don't think it's ever. That's a mistake 1:17:20.880 --> 1:17:25.040 people make. I believe with the Endangered Species Act, where 1:17:25.080 --> 1:17:28.639 certain species they view it as a switch, like they're 1:17:28.640 --> 1:17:31.800 not enough and then all of a sudden, we're okay 1:17:31.840 --> 1:17:36.120 and you can walk away. I don't think wildlife listens 1:17:36.200 --> 1:17:39.400 to us power switch. You know that it's okay one 1:17:39.479 --> 1:17:42.040 day and not okay the other day. Okay again, it's 1:17:42.120 --> 1:17:46.120 part of a continuum. So is it a success that's 1:17:46.520 --> 1:17:50.840 we're celebrating. Yes, but as our work ever done? No, 1:17:51.240 --> 1:17:54.120 because there are plenty of people who would like to 1:17:54.160 --> 1:17:58.680 have fewer wolves in northwest Montana, and yet there are 1:17:58.680 --> 1:18:02.200 people around Yellowstone who use wolf. Wolf watching is an 1:18:02.200 --> 1:18:05.320 important economic driver. I would like to see more. So 1:18:06.160 --> 1:18:08.880 we're not naive enough to think that our work is done. 1:18:09.280 --> 1:18:12.680 You never like, got it permanent? Yeah, got it? We 1:18:12.720 --> 1:18:16.200 can learn from good things. I'll promise not to bring 1:18:16.240 --> 1:18:19.000 up wolves anymore. I'm only bring I mean I want 1:18:19.000 --> 1:18:20.200 to say that because not that you have a problem 1:18:20.200 --> 1:18:21.680 with me, bring them up. But imagine it's just like 1:18:22.000 --> 1:18:23.759 it's one of those things that probably if you imagine 1:18:23.760 --> 1:18:25.680 how many like like you, Matt, you were talked early 1:18:25.720 --> 1:18:27.080 about how a big like a piece of pie is. 1:18:27.840 --> 1:18:30.840 If I imagine your brain as a chunk of pie, 1:18:31.920 --> 1:18:36.719 the wolf slice, it's probably big. Well, the elve slice 1:18:36.760 --> 1:18:38.840 is big. Well what's bigger the wolf slice of the 1:18:38.840 --> 1:18:42.559 elk slice? Well, it depends on the year, depends on 1:18:42.600 --> 1:18:44.439 the year. But I feel like when I go talk 1:18:44.479 --> 1:18:48.000 to landowners, like I can go talk to landowners about 1:18:48.040 --> 1:18:52.360 wolves or bears and they'll pull me aside and they'll say, listen, 1:18:52.520 --> 1:18:54.280 what I really want to talk to you about is hell. 1:18:56.920 --> 1:18:59.240 So if you imagine, like where are your sort of thoughts, 1:18:59.360 --> 1:19:01.200 Like if you made and there's this pie and it's 1:19:01.240 --> 1:19:05.840 your head and there's the wedges representing different animals, and 1:19:05.840 --> 1:19:07.559 I'm saying, this is what you wish you could think about. 1:19:07.560 --> 1:19:09.160 But just like when it all said and done, and 1:19:09.160 --> 1:19:15.000 all the things you got to look at and consider, Um, grizzlies, wolves, 1:19:15.080 --> 1:19:19.679 elk are big, huge pieces of pie. They are, and 1:19:20.280 --> 1:19:25.599 they're like the whole pie budget personnel. Fish, No, it's 1:19:25.600 --> 1:19:31.599 only animal pie, climate change, aquatic invasive species disease, chronic 1:19:31.640 --> 1:19:34.080 wasting disease. So you're not willing to just have it 1:19:34.120 --> 1:19:38.720 be an animal pie. Listen, I wish it was only 1:19:38.760 --> 1:19:43.760 an animal pie. The harder things sometimes are are the 1:19:43.960 --> 1:19:47.479 human the human pieces of the pie. There was a 1:19:47.520 --> 1:19:51.599 Commission meeting just uh six weeks ago where a chunk 1:19:51.640 --> 1:19:55.240 of the meeting was on a good chunk was on trout, 1:19:55.400 --> 1:19:59.280 kind of a trout versus walleye debate. Oh, and it 1:19:59.320 --> 1:20:03.080 was as animated our meetings, can people getting okay, give 1:20:03.120 --> 1:20:05.400 me the just give me give me real quick. What 1:20:05.479 --> 1:20:11.400 are the what? What are the what? We're talking cutthroats 1:20:11.400 --> 1:20:14.040 and we're talking other inters. So trying to introduce rainbows 1:20:14.120 --> 1:20:16.720 versus introduced walleyes. What were we talking about? Well, so 1:20:16.920 --> 1:20:20.840 the it was the Upper Missouri River Reservoir plan where 1:20:20.840 --> 1:20:28.600 we have a multi species system that includes very healthy 1:20:29.120 --> 1:20:35.840 walleye fisheries and a very healthy rainbow trout. So it's 1:20:35.960 --> 1:20:40.440 rainbow rainbow v. Walleye. Well, when how would you balance 1:20:40.520 --> 1:20:44.320 them or not? Yeah, the rainbows aren't from here anyways. 1:20:44.760 --> 1:20:54.200 This is one introduced the think that yeah, there's no 1:20:54.240 --> 1:20:56.080 way that one didn't come up that river high enough? 1:20:56.120 --> 1:20:58.639 Are you? So are you on the you are on 1:20:58.680 --> 1:21:01.120 the on the side of the debate that Wally I 1:21:01.320 --> 1:21:05.559 or a Montana native. Let's just say, okay, do I 1:21:05.600 --> 1:21:11.000 think the historically, Wally, we're coming up the Missouri far 1:21:11.120 --> 1:21:13.639 enough to hit Montana. I mean, of course, come on, fishty, 1:21:13.680 --> 1:21:16.479 wild stuff, right, fish turn up. I mean you have 1:21:16.560 --> 1:21:19.559 a wolf from the up of Missually the winds up 1:21:19.560 --> 1:21:21.960 down in Missouri, so it's like a wolf wind up 1:21:21.960 --> 1:21:24.559 there here to the wall, I wind up there. How 1:21:24.560 --> 1:21:27.720 about the Upper Missouri waters head though I don't know 1:21:27.760 --> 1:21:31.479 how high up well that one got lost and well 1:21:31.520 --> 1:21:35.599 so historically from from from what our research has are 1:21:35.680 --> 1:21:38.000 not ours, But I mean the research we've collected and 1:21:38.040 --> 1:21:41.799 looked at the Great Falls was a barrier. So above 1:21:41.880 --> 1:21:46.519 Great Falls was cutthroat west slope cutthroat fishery, which is 1:21:46.640 --> 1:21:50.280 kind of cool. But you know, with with dams and 1:21:50.320 --> 1:21:53.200 everything else. I mean, there's no doubt that we have 1:21:53.320 --> 1:21:57.120 some we have some spectacular walleye fishing in the Upper 1:21:57.120 --> 1:22:03.240 Missouri reservoirs, but so so the multi more about what 1:22:03.360 --> 1:22:04.960 I want to clarify, what I think all to happen 1:22:05.920 --> 1:22:11.240 if it's wal ivy cutthroat. Cutthroat win because they're native fish, 1:22:11.760 --> 1:22:16.360 super native fish and imperiled and to some extent wal 1:22:16.479 --> 1:22:18.400 ivy rainbow. I'm justest gonna go with walls. I like 1:22:18.439 --> 1:22:24.519 them better. Yeah. Well so the so the to the 1:22:24.560 --> 1:22:28.640 balance that we do is we manage for both of them. 1:22:28.640 --> 1:22:31.000 So we we in this one. We try trying to 1:22:31.080 --> 1:22:33.639 keep everybody happy. We're trying not to pick winners and losers, 1:22:33.720 --> 1:22:38.520 and uh, it's throwing the mix, uh the perch fishery 1:22:38.560 --> 1:22:41.320 which is really important to the to the both the 1:22:41.360 --> 1:22:45.320 walleye and the rainbow fishery. And so there's a lot 1:22:45.360 --> 1:22:46.920 of going there's a lot of moving parts in that 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:52.040 Upper Missouri Reservoir plan. But right downstream of the last 1:22:52.160 --> 1:22:58.439 damn is the fabled Missouri blue ribbon trout fishery, the 1:22:58.439 --> 1:23:03.880 tail water fishery where up until this is just meeting, 1:23:04.000 --> 1:23:07.639 we were it was an unlimited take on walleye because 1:23:07.640 --> 1:23:11.559 there was just no we didn't want any walleye in that. 1:23:11.720 --> 1:23:15.439 And that's where the heat got into the room. Was 1:23:15.680 --> 1:23:19.479 trying to you know, the passion on both sides of 1:23:19.600 --> 1:23:25.080 the fishery debate. Man. That's that's an interesting point because 1:23:26.320 --> 1:23:28.479 there's a there's a thing where you know, you can 1:23:28.600 --> 1:23:34.080 use set lines in the Lorielstone. It's like a great 1:23:34.080 --> 1:23:36.479 way to catch catfish. I've heard that there now and 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:38.760 you talk about like all the different people getting mad 1:23:38.800 --> 1:23:42.400 at each other. I heard now there's catfish guys who 1:23:42.400 --> 1:23:45.559 are gunning for set lines because the set liners catch 1:23:45.600 --> 1:23:48.720 all the catfish. So it's not even walleye guys v. 1:23:49.000 --> 1:23:53.680 Rainbow guys. It's like catfish guys be catfish guys. Everybody's 1:23:54.680 --> 1:24:00.880 everybody's douking it out, the write letters and mail. Um 1:24:01.640 --> 1:24:08.559 so so does there's a little piece of that that 1:24:08.680 --> 1:24:18.360 I find, um funny odd that we're fighting. It's it's 1:24:18.400 --> 1:24:21.760 another way to put it would be that's not I 1:24:21.800 --> 1:24:26.120 probably shouldn't say that the first world problem, but that 1:24:26.240 --> 1:24:31.280 we're fighting over a plethora of riches. I mean, instead 1:24:31.320 --> 1:24:34.760 of early on going back to the theme of the 1:24:35.240 --> 1:24:38.360 origin of the North American model, the Pittman Robertson Act, 1:24:38.439 --> 1:24:44.320 where there um depleted resources. Now we have a lot 1:24:44.400 --> 1:24:48.400 of resources and we're fighting over them. And I just 1:24:48.560 --> 1:24:51.919 I just sometimes think we we missed the big picture 1:24:52.000 --> 1:24:56.599 of we should all we have more in common than 1:24:56.640 --> 1:25:00.479 we're willing to let on fighting at the litt things. 1:25:00.720 --> 1:25:06.000 My kids fight the worst one about ten am Christmas morning, Yeah, 1:25:06.640 --> 1:25:12.559 the richest. Then they got something to fight over who 1:25:12.720 --> 1:25:16.400 got what? And I'm not discounting it was drowned in 1:25:16.560 --> 1:25:24.360 toys and they turn on each other. Uh, loving it 1:25:24.400 --> 1:25:29.280 to death? Okay, talk about what what do you mean when? 1:25:30.880 --> 1:25:33.320 What does it mean to you? Loving it to death? 1:25:33.439 --> 1:25:35.960 What would mean to me would be what happens in 1:25:36.320 --> 1:25:41.360 Uh what do you mean right now? Would be like 1:25:41.360 --> 1:25:45.400 what happens during archery elk season in Colorado. Pretty much 1:25:45.439 --> 1:25:51.519 every season in Colorado's loved to death. People want to go, 1:25:52.400 --> 1:25:54.880 and they want to go and have the experience in 1:25:54.920 --> 1:25:57.599 the state. It's like hell, come on out. And it 1:25:57.640 --> 1:26:01.559 makes it that it just creates like over it creates 1:26:01.600 --> 1:26:05.080 what I would feel like an overwhelmingly negative thing. And 1:26:05.120 --> 1:26:08.840 by trying to participate in something that's supposed to be great, 1:26:08.880 --> 1:26:12.400 all of those people participating and it diminishes and cheapens 1:26:12.400 --> 1:26:16.679 it and makes it not special. Um. I think that 1:26:16.680 --> 1:26:24.320 that Colorado Elk are but they'll be in love to 1:26:24.360 --> 1:26:30.639 death by other user groups as well. Yeah, maybe even 1:26:30.680 --> 1:26:34.160 more than too many archery hunters. I feel like a 1:26:34.200 --> 1:26:38.000 lot of archery hunters certainly worse since your experience out there. 1:26:38.479 --> 1:26:42.040 But we've talked when we talked with bel Andre from 1:26:42.080 --> 1:26:45.400 the Colorado Parks and Wildlife, you know, he's talking about, 1:26:45.560 --> 1:26:48.800 um just hikers and backpackers and mountain bikers that are 1:26:48.880 --> 1:26:52.760 in the mountains seven sixty five days a year. There 1:26:52.880 --> 1:26:57.320 is no off season, there's no shoulder season there anymore. Um. 1:26:57.439 --> 1:26:59.439 I lived there ten years ago and just now is 1:26:59.479 --> 1:27:02.639 back this year, and just you know, trailheads that would 1:27:02.640 --> 1:27:05.280 have a car or two or maybe none at certain 1:27:05.360 --> 1:27:08.360 days of the week. Now every single day of the week, 1:27:08.400 --> 1:27:11.800 all the time that there's overflow parking for every single trailhead, 1:27:12.360 --> 1:27:15.800 and those animals just do not get a break anymore. Um. 1:27:16.000 --> 1:27:17.840 So that's a form of love and to death. Yeah, 1:27:17.880 --> 1:27:20.000 I'd say so. And then the love and death of 1:27:20.400 --> 1:27:23.760 I think just like the like the amazing number of 1:27:23.840 --> 1:27:28.200 nonresident the hunters of the state lets in. I'm staying 1:27:28.200 --> 1:27:30.880 that from a non resident, So that would be love 1:27:31.080 --> 1:27:32.360 or here let me give you another love and to death, 1:27:32.360 --> 1:27:34.680 because here's what I want to talk about. Like a river, 1:27:34.760 --> 1:27:37.080 for instance, when I go down there's a river near here, 1:27:37.920 --> 1:27:43.599 the Madison it Um in the old days when I 1:27:43.640 --> 1:27:46.840 was a young man, um some people around the river. 1:27:46.880 --> 1:27:50.320 But now you go down there on a Saturday in 1:27:50.320 --> 1:27:55.120 the summertime and it's like it's like a parade, and 1:27:55.160 --> 1:27:59.479 you're talking even like inflatable swans. I mean, it's like 1:27:59.720 --> 1:28:03.960 a parade. Have you taken your kids down and done that? No? 1:28:04.080 --> 1:28:06.040 Hell no, I wouldn't take them to do that. There. 1:28:06.080 --> 1:28:11.439 You can rent those inflatable swans. Wouldn't inflatable mattresses. I 1:28:11.479 --> 1:28:15.599 remember one time seeing you know, those metal um watering troughs. 1:28:16.040 --> 1:28:19.240 I've seen a metal watering trough on the Missouri on 1:28:19.320 --> 1:28:22.360 the fourth of July weekend. Not to be crude, but 1:28:22.439 --> 1:28:24.439 at a certain point is the amount of urine in 1:28:24.520 --> 1:28:27.439 the water it's produced by all those floats that start 1:28:27.520 --> 1:28:31.519 to hurt the fish. It depends on if there's an 1:28:31.520 --> 1:28:35.600 offset with beer. Can beer offset the impact you're in? 1:28:36.120 --> 1:28:38.240 So we got this situation where you have this river 1:28:38.320 --> 1:28:41.400 and everyone wants to go there and they want to 1:28:41.400 --> 1:28:49.080 flow down the river. And someone might look and say, um, 1:28:49.160 --> 1:28:52.800 what was special about this? Right that it was like 1:28:52.840 --> 1:28:56.840 a way to this this this naturally scenic, it's beautiful. 1:28:57.520 --> 1:28:59.800 You can drift down this river and kind of visualize 1:28:59.840 --> 1:29:04.080 it yourself, getting lost in time. It's this landscape that 1:29:04.240 --> 1:29:10.320 just from a cursory look um carved. Yeah, it could 1:29:10.360 --> 1:29:12.679 be like I don't know, I'm here five years ago, 1:29:12.800 --> 1:29:15.120 Like if I was here five hundred years ago, probably 1:29:15.240 --> 1:29:18.919 kind of be like this, you know, and it's special 1:29:19.400 --> 1:29:23.040 and people go there. But then one day so many 1:29:23.080 --> 1:29:26.720 people go there that now it doesn't do what it 1:29:26.760 --> 1:29:34.000 did Now it's just a circus. So like like, whose 1:29:34.040 --> 1:29:38.400 responsibility is to police this? Is it? Anyone's who's supposed 1:29:38.439 --> 1:29:41.280 to say, like, hey, now some of you can't go 1:29:42.240 --> 1:29:44.200 because we're just gonna let a couple of people go 1:29:44.280 --> 1:29:46.120 and it will be special to them and everyone else 1:29:46.120 --> 1:29:49.439 stay home. Well let me ask that back. Who do 1:29:49.479 --> 1:29:53.920 you think i'd have a say and who should police it? 1:29:54.200 --> 1:29:59.720 And what that would look like? I mean, I would 1:29:59.760 --> 1:30:04.760 just look to That's a good question. The constituents. Yeah, 1:30:05.080 --> 1:30:08.400 what are our constituents? What you're even talking about different 1:30:08.479 --> 1:30:13.000 land like different landownership stuff. Yeah, well let me let 1:30:13.040 --> 1:30:16.320 me back up. So when I talked about fish, wildlife 1:30:16.320 --> 1:30:18.719 and parks, you know what is our job? Our mission 1:30:18.840 --> 1:30:24.719 is to steward uh fish, wildlife, parks, recreational resources for 1:30:24.720 --> 1:30:29.280 for today and for future generations. And then as we've 1:30:29.320 --> 1:30:32.680 gone around the state and talked to a number of 1:30:32.680 --> 1:30:36.280 people and went through a whole process internally to figure 1:30:36.320 --> 1:30:39.479 out what, like what does that really mean? And that 1:30:40.000 --> 1:30:46.480 our charge is to protect the integrity of the Montana 1:30:46.640 --> 1:30:51.000 experience outside. So so we're we're not Colorado right now, 1:30:51.120 --> 1:30:55.360 We're not Utah, were not other states. What is what 1:30:55.520 --> 1:31:01.200 is the Montana experience and how would we protect the 1:31:01.240 --> 1:31:07.000 integrity of that experience? So that's what our charge is. 1:31:07.120 --> 1:31:11.840 So in I would argue it is our job to 1:31:11.960 --> 1:31:15.880 look at that, whether it's the experience of hunting, it's 1:31:15.920 --> 1:31:21.280 the experience of trails on lands we manage um, and 1:31:21.680 --> 1:31:26.559 it is um the experience on the Madison. So I 1:31:26.600 --> 1:31:28.880 believe we do have a role in it. And there's 1:31:28.880 --> 1:31:33.960 a statute that directs us to address social conflicts on 1:31:34.080 --> 1:31:39.280 rivers now like a specific thing to like fight out 1:31:39.360 --> 1:31:43.920 social conflicts. And I remember on rivers, I remembering they 1:31:44.080 --> 1:31:46.120 they didn't they didn't forget anything. Today you could go 1:31:46.160 --> 1:31:48.719 back to the legislative history on that. I was sitting 1:31:48.800 --> 1:31:52.320 in the legislative hearing the day that language got added 1:31:52.360 --> 1:31:54.760 into that statute, and I remember I was like this 1:31:54.880 --> 1:31:58.680 fresh lawyer. I didn't, you know, I was somewhat new 1:31:58.720 --> 1:32:01.639 to the process and I reader can't have a law background. Yeah, 1:32:01.760 --> 1:32:05.000 and I was. I was. I thought that day, I thought, WHOA, 1:32:05.680 --> 1:32:07.800 what is that going to mean? Is that's a good 1:32:07.840 --> 1:32:13.240 thing or it's hard? So so we do have that responsibility. Now, 1:32:13.280 --> 1:32:20.360 how we apply it is super tricky. Um and I 1:32:20.400 --> 1:32:24.439 would argue the best way to apply it is to 1:32:24.560 --> 1:32:29.360 go through some sort of robust public process where we 1:32:29.479 --> 1:32:32.800 do hear from everyone. You hear from you know, we're 1:32:32.800 --> 1:32:35.360 talking about them, Addison. You hear from the people who 1:32:35.400 --> 1:32:39.720 live in Annas, you business owners, the people who live 1:32:39.760 --> 1:32:43.400 there and don't own a business, Virginia City, Nevada City, 1:32:43.920 --> 1:32:48.040 people who live in Bozeman, non residents. I mean, think 1:32:48.080 --> 1:32:50.600 of all the different people who use them. Addison and 1:32:50.840 --> 1:32:55.559 I don't believe that we can turn back the clock 1:32:56.400 --> 1:32:59.640 on what's happening there. I think that's tough. But we 1:32:59.680 --> 1:33:02.240 can certainly think about what's happening now and look to 1:33:02.320 --> 1:33:05.360 the future. It's not easy, but I mean, I look 1:33:05.400 --> 1:33:08.439 at the Smith River, I look at other rivers that 1:33:08.479 --> 1:33:11.360 are permitted. Do we want to do that? Greg and 1:33:11.400 --> 1:33:14.080 I were talking about it do we want the same 1:33:14.120 --> 1:33:16.639 experience on all of the rivers, Like should the Boulder 1:33:16.760 --> 1:33:21.080 River or the Yellowstone be the same as the Madison. Um. 1:33:21.600 --> 1:33:23.360 I think we have to listen to the public and 1:33:23.400 --> 1:33:26.840 go through and we have here, but go through a 1:33:27.439 --> 1:33:32.200 really public process and and sort through that collectively without 1:33:32.439 --> 1:33:36.840 us stepping in and dictating it. My opinion here doesn't matter. 1:33:36.880 --> 1:33:41.160 It's what collectively we do. But at some point, because 1:33:41.240 --> 1:33:44.200 right now we're just talking about all the user experiences, 1:33:44.240 --> 1:33:46.679 at some point when you have to step in and say, yeah, 1:33:47.120 --> 1:33:50.840 well we have to be the voice for the habitat 1:33:50.960 --> 1:33:53.040 and and all the things that live in it and 1:33:53.080 --> 1:33:57.160 on it. Yes, and to date, um, and I mean 1:33:57.200 --> 1:33:59.400 this is all part of what's going on. I think 1:33:59.439 --> 1:34:04.120 the people you don't want to see fish wild life 1:34:04.160 --> 1:34:07.680 from Parks or the Commission to step into this the 1:34:07.800 --> 1:34:12.439 issue on the Madison because to date there has not 1:34:12.720 --> 1:34:16.439 been a biological impact. There hasn't been an impact on 1:34:16.479 --> 1:34:21.679 the fisheries. I think we're seeing that. Um, we're starting 1:34:21.760 --> 1:34:25.320 to see that, and and and the next year or so, 1:34:25.640 --> 1:34:28.000 I'll be really curious. I do think it's our job 1:34:28.080 --> 1:34:31.280 to get that data and understand that better. So I 1:34:31.320 --> 1:34:35.160 want to just clarify this for for folks, No, you're 1:34:35.160 --> 1:34:37.360 doing a bang up job and I'm probably gonna I'll 1:34:37.400 --> 1:34:38.960 be accused of like someone say like, oh, are you 1:34:39.080 --> 1:34:43.360 telling the obvious? So, uh, we're looking at we're talking 1:34:43.360 --> 1:34:46.479 about two different things. Where you have our river okay, 1:34:46.520 --> 1:34:50.920 and the river has too much boating traffic. You could 1:34:50.960 --> 1:34:56.439 be invited into police the experience. And that's one thing, 1:34:56.560 --> 1:34:58.479 so you talk about you have the ability to monitor 1:34:58.520 --> 1:35:01.280 like social stuff, meaning like in the absence of it 1:35:01.320 --> 1:35:05.800 being fish habitat or whatever, just like that you can 1:35:05.880 --> 1:35:08.280 monitor like what kind of experience is it crowded or 1:35:08.320 --> 1:35:11.439 not crowded. But then there's another avenue of approach into 1:35:11.439 --> 1:35:14.040 this question where you could be in a situation where 1:35:14.080 --> 1:35:17.759 no one has any problem with the crowding. Everyone loves 1:35:17.800 --> 1:35:20.680 the crowding. They wish there was more crowding, but it 1:35:20.680 --> 1:35:25.000 turns out the fish don't dig it. And at that 1:35:25.040 --> 1:35:28.880 point you can also you also have legal authority on 1:35:29.000 --> 1:35:33.479 behalf of the fish regardless of what anybody thinks. Not 1:35:33.600 --> 1:35:36.439 regardless of what anyone thinks. I mean, we still could 1:35:36.439 --> 1:35:39.680 step in, but you still will get public input. So 1:35:39.760 --> 1:35:43.879 there's that's that mix of the biological science and social science. 1:35:44.360 --> 1:35:48.080 I would argue, you know, biological science is critical, it 1:35:48.120 --> 1:35:52.360 should be the underpinning. We also have learned we need 1:35:52.400 --> 1:35:55.280 to pay attention to social science too. There are very 1:35:55.280 --> 1:35:57.760 few things I think we deal with it doesn't have 1:35:57.960 --> 1:36:02.920 some social impact or so. Um, but it's good. I'm 1:36:02.920 --> 1:36:06.880 glad we're so linked to the natural world. So that's 1:36:06.880 --> 1:36:10.639 a good thing. You mentioned the Smith River. So there's 1:36:10.680 --> 1:36:14.519 a river. There's a very isolated, very wild river called 1:36:14.560 --> 1:36:19.679 the Smith River, and it's quintessential Montana. People do multi 1:36:19.760 --> 1:36:22.920 day floats on it, and you gotta like draw a 1:36:22.960 --> 1:36:25.240 permit to go float the river. It's not like you 1:36:25.240 --> 1:36:27.000 don't you don't go down there for an hour. It's 1:36:27.040 --> 1:36:29.519 like you get a permit. You do at Yeah, you do, 1:36:29.640 --> 1:36:34.680 you do a river trip. Um, could you imagine is 1:36:34.680 --> 1:36:38.479 there a way to have a version of a permit 1:36:38.600 --> 1:36:41.200 system that you need to get a permit to go 1:36:41.240 --> 1:36:43.240 float in a two for an hour? I mean I'm 1:36:43.280 --> 1:36:45.400 all for it, but I mean, like, is that is 1:36:45.400 --> 1:36:49.760 there a way to do that? I don't know, first come, 1:36:49.800 --> 1:36:51.599 first served, like like you know, I mean, like what 1:36:51.640 --> 1:36:56.519 could it look like? Um, I guess I don't know yet. 1:36:57.240 --> 1:37:00.280 I mean, this is somewhat new territory for us, and 1:37:00.320 --> 1:37:04.280 we've not had a sound bureaucratic here. But it's the truth. 1:37:04.400 --> 1:37:08.559 We haven't had the capacity and the money to put 1:37:08.560 --> 1:37:12.519 the work into getting um studying this better and setting 1:37:12.600 --> 1:37:16.559 up a good system to address Yet well it's come up, 1:37:16.600 --> 1:37:20.720 but it's not popular and we haven't had the support 1:37:21.240 --> 1:37:24.759 to really plan it out. But if you think about 1:37:24.760 --> 1:37:28.559 the Smith River, the precursor to and I'm not saying 1:37:28.600 --> 1:37:31.519 that we want to permit all rivers, I'm not at 1:37:31.520 --> 1:37:37.320 all going there for right, right, and we wouldn't want that. 1:37:37.400 --> 1:37:39.639 I mean, you know, because then people aren't getting outside 1:37:39.680 --> 1:37:43.880 and experiencing it and then loving something else too because 1:37:43.920 --> 1:37:46.080 they got to grow up going on the river whatever. 1:37:46.479 --> 1:37:51.839 But the Smith River. UM first, there was a study 1:37:52.160 --> 1:37:55.800 of the resources. There was a study of use and 1:37:55.880 --> 1:38:00.559 resources on the Smith River that led to permit getting there. 1:38:01.360 --> 1:38:04.719 And so what I'm saying, I think is we're getting 1:38:04.760 --> 1:38:08.800 pushed river by river to address conflict, whether it's on 1:38:08.840 --> 1:38:12.440 the West Fork of the bitter Root or on the Madison. 1:38:12.840 --> 1:38:15.800 You know, people are coming to the agency to say 1:38:15.880 --> 1:38:20.320 we want you to address this. UM I am saying it. 1:38:20.400 --> 1:38:22.720 I would love down the road to be able to 1:38:23.840 --> 1:38:27.800 uh look at it across the state holistically, so that 1:38:27.840 --> 1:38:33.000 we're realize that if we do something on the Madison, 1:38:33.160 --> 1:38:36.479 how might that impact the Yellowstone? Or when we had 1:38:36.560 --> 1:38:39.800 regulations on the Beaverhead and Big Hole, how did that 1:38:39.920 --> 1:38:43.000 impact the Madison? And making sure we have all sorts 1:38:43.000 --> 1:38:46.960 of different kinds of opportunity, So we're not saying every 1:38:47.000 --> 1:38:50.960 every opportunity, every river has to be the same. I don't. 1:38:50.960 --> 1:38:53.680 I'm not arguing that well. And I think on the 1:38:53.720 --> 1:38:58.040 Madison is a really unique spot sort of because that 1:38:58.160 --> 1:39:03.839 lower river is is so the experience during the summer 1:39:04.000 --> 1:39:07.960 months is so much geared towards that that sort of 1:39:08.080 --> 1:39:12.360 non consumptive crowd. Not that not that they don't consume, 1:39:12.400 --> 1:39:15.679 because they do, but they we we don't permit people 1:39:16.120 --> 1:39:20.719 like the bird watchers and the carrying, the partiers, they're 1:39:21.240 --> 1:39:24.840 they're they're consumptive in a different way, but they but 1:39:25.040 --> 1:39:31.519 we so they use up years of my life in swants, 1:39:31.680 --> 1:39:34.040 the ones in the inflatable swants. But but but on 1:39:34.080 --> 1:39:38.880 a given uh summer weekend, summer Saturday, there may be 1:39:39.080 --> 1:39:42.840 thousands of people on that that lower stretch river and 1:39:42.880 --> 1:39:46.840 there and there's a there's a there's a businesses and 1:39:47.160 --> 1:39:52.679 in Bozeman that that serve that crowd, that that that 1:39:53.080 --> 1:39:57.799 value that use. Isn't the primary debate that that comes 1:39:57.840 --> 1:40:00.160 to us. The primary debate that comes to us is 1:40:00.200 --> 1:40:04.000 on the Upper River, and it's on the commercial outfitting 1:40:04.200 --> 1:40:08.559 versus the wait angler versus the non commercial outfitted user 1:40:09.080 --> 1:40:13.559 or the non guided user and the and so that's 1:40:13.560 --> 1:40:17.160 where right now that the debate is the hottest. Well, 1:40:17.160 --> 1:40:21.160 you're saying that that on the river. On this river 1:40:21.880 --> 1:40:25.320 there's more of a debate around people arguing between who's 1:40:25.400 --> 1:40:28.840 got a guide and who's waiting from the beach and 1:40:28.880 --> 1:40:31.439 who's in a boat but not with a guide, Like 1:40:31.479 --> 1:40:34.759 they're duking it out more than who's here to party 1:40:34.760 --> 1:40:36.720 and who's here to fish. Well, think of if you 1:40:36.760 --> 1:40:39.000 think about it for us, for like kind of how 1:40:39.040 --> 1:40:44.080 it gets to us, Like there there isn't the constituent 1:40:44.160 --> 1:40:47.600 that that buys a six pack of PBR and and 1:40:47.760 --> 1:40:50.040 a black inner tube and hops in and floats down 1:40:50.040 --> 1:40:52.840 the river and it's cut offs. He doesn't show up 1:40:52.880 --> 1:40:56.120 at the public meeting. Yeah, they don't have like a 1:40:56.320 --> 1:41:01.920 he's not like in the Montana Tubers associated right, that's truthfully, 1:41:01.960 --> 1:41:05.439 this comes to the Commission in the form of in 1:41:05.479 --> 1:41:09.479 a formal petition, so that already, you know, weeds people out. 1:41:10.560 --> 1:41:12.720 He's going to bring a petition for that. But but 1:41:12.800 --> 1:41:15.439 if you like to drink beer and float, and I'm 1:41:15.479 --> 1:41:18.439 starting to group right now, you're you haven't shown up yet, 1:41:18.439 --> 1:41:21.680 but if you're but if you want that sort of 1:41:21.760 --> 1:41:26.280 solitude experienced wade fishing, like up a three dollar bridge, 1:41:26.840 --> 1:41:30.439 you know that the sama fly hatches on. You've hiked 1:41:30.439 --> 1:41:33.680 down the river two miles, You've got this couple of 1:41:33.680 --> 1:41:37.840 holes you're gonna fish. You want that solitude, You've earned it, 1:41:38.000 --> 1:41:40.800 You've you've put in the time, you've you've done all 1:41:40.920 --> 1:41:43.400 everything right, and then you have a whole bunch of 1:41:43.400 --> 1:41:48.919 people floating by your you might your dissatisfaction with your experience. 1:41:49.280 --> 1:41:53.920 That that is where that opinion is what's coming to 1:41:54.000 --> 1:41:58.400 us now. Also, the you know, and it's Chamber of Commerce, 1:41:58.520 --> 1:42:02.759 the you know, the Outfitters and Guides Association. We're hearing 1:42:02.840 --> 1:42:06.200 from those groups saying, you know, hey, you can't if 1:42:06.200 --> 1:42:09.080 you're gonna you gotta be really thoughtful if you're gonna 1:42:09.120 --> 1:42:13.200 limit how many outfitters we like selling stuff. Yeah, you 1:42:13.240 --> 1:42:15.320 know what, you know what? You know what group you're 1:42:15.320 --> 1:42:19.360 gonna regret? You ever heard of when we we get uh, 1:42:19.360 --> 1:42:23.200 we're gonna start the Rocky Mountain Squirrel Foundation, and you're 1:42:23.200 --> 1:42:25.000 out top about having to be in your bonnet. Man, 1:42:28.240 --> 1:42:31.960 they don't you guys more squirrels. You guys don't make 1:42:32.040 --> 1:42:35.800 They don't manage squirrels. Well, the isn't. I mean, I 1:42:36.160 --> 1:42:40.679 believe I'm stepping out, but aren't those uh foxtail squirrels 1:42:40.720 --> 1:42:45.120 are invasive foxtail fox squirrels fox squirrels. No, I don't 1:42:45.120 --> 1:42:46.760 think so. I think they came up. You think they 1:42:46.760 --> 1:42:49.240 came they came up, They rolled the backs of the wall. 1:42:49.320 --> 1:42:52.000 I read they came up, they rolled on wall. Here's 1:42:52.000 --> 1:42:54.320 the thing, though, Man, to be honest with you, I 1:42:54.360 --> 1:42:59.000 don't want there to be It's counterintuitive. I don't want 1:42:59.080 --> 1:43:01.439 there to be a formal season in a formal bag 1:43:01.520 --> 1:43:04.040 limit because I feel that if there was, people would 1:43:04.040 --> 1:43:07.640 be tuned into it, like the minute you make it 1:43:07.720 --> 1:43:09.920 a thing. Like remember how like people used to just 1:43:09.960 --> 1:43:11.880 go and like you might go fishing and maybe shoot 1:43:11.960 --> 1:43:14.519 something too right and just that's just what you did, 1:43:14.560 --> 1:43:16.599 and that could happen then all a sudden something came 1:43:16.680 --> 1:43:18.880 up with the term like, oh, let's do a cast 1:43:18.920 --> 1:43:21.120 and blast, and all of a sudden, you like put 1:43:21.120 --> 1:43:23.519 a name to something and you turn it into something. 1:43:24.200 --> 1:43:26.000 So I think, like, if people open up the REGs 1:43:26.040 --> 1:43:28.559 and they see rules about squirrels, are gonna get all interested. 1:43:28.640 --> 1:43:31.280 I'd rather I like it one of the I like 1:43:31.360 --> 1:43:34.120 it that there's just no mention of it, and then 1:43:34.760 --> 1:43:37.120 it doesn't become like a thing. But what I'd like 1:43:37.160 --> 1:43:39.080 to see is more of them dropped off here and there, 1:43:40.320 --> 1:43:44.400 like a lot more money into do it bucket biology 1:43:44.439 --> 1:43:48.120 on squirrels. Man hate no bucket biology. That's just a 1:43:48.160 --> 1:43:53.280 stance we gotta make. Yeah, uh, okay, we'll talk about 1:43:53.320 --> 1:43:56.200 loving it to death and what like. And it's interesting 1:43:56.240 --> 1:43:58.880 to know that you're actually like there's a mandate, an 1:43:58.920 --> 1:44:05.000 agency could have a man date to regulate people's social fighting. 1:44:06.800 --> 1:44:08.800 What do you feel? So this is a whole new topic. 1:44:08.840 --> 1:44:12.360 I want to ask you about um. Earlier we talked 1:44:12.400 --> 1:44:15.080 about like who owns wildlife? Right, we talked about it 1:44:15.080 --> 1:44:20.080 really matter of factly, like everybody knows. Everybody knows wildlife 1:44:20.120 --> 1:44:24.360 owned by the people. What are what do you imagine 1:44:25.240 --> 1:44:27.800 being threats to that. And I know that for you 1:44:27.840 --> 1:44:29.280 to use the word threat, it's gonna put you in 1:44:29.360 --> 1:44:31.880 trouble because you're sort of there's a value judgment with 1:44:31.920 --> 1:44:34.240 calling it a threat, like what are the chant Like, 1:44:34.400 --> 1:44:38.479 what do you see as emerging challenges to this thing 1:44:38.520 --> 1:44:41.080 that we're just accepting at face value as being Like 1:44:41.200 --> 1:44:44.800 everyone agrees that wildlife is a public the wildlife is 1:44:44.800 --> 1:44:48.360 publicly owned. Um, but as you point out, not everyone 1:44:49.240 --> 1:44:52.160 agrees with that or they understand that it's always been 1:44:52.200 --> 1:44:57.840 that way, but they would like to see that change. Um, 1:44:57.960 --> 1:44:59.880 there's a group I'm trying to remember what's the what's 1:44:59.880 --> 1:45:04.240 the the Utah group Sportsman. They come up with them 1:45:05.840 --> 1:45:08.400 as a group of sports for Wildlife. It's one of 1:45:08.400 --> 1:45:10.560 those this is me talking, not like I want to 1:45:10.560 --> 1:45:13.200 save you guys, any kind of I'm talking right now, 1:45:13.400 --> 1:45:15.760 Steve that that I haven't consulted that our guests are 1:45:15.760 --> 1:45:20.559 sitting silently. Um, but yeah, I don't want to say 1:45:20.560 --> 1:45:24.599 that group there are sometimes you'll see, uh yeah, never 1:45:24.600 --> 1:45:29.000 mind sports states handle it differently. Yeah, so sports there's 1:45:29.360 --> 1:45:31.160 and I could't even be wrong, but I feel like 1:45:31.200 --> 1:45:35.960 Sportsman for Wildlife. I believe, um that that organization would 1:45:36.000 --> 1:45:42.600 like to see. UM, I would like to see individual 1:45:42.760 --> 1:45:47.719 landowners enjoy sort of a greater ownership. Speaking very generally, 1:45:47.880 --> 1:45:50.679 they would like to see the landowners enjoy a greater 1:45:50.800 --> 1:45:56.759 ownership of the animals that are on their property. Meaning UM, 1:45:56.800 --> 1:45:59.960 they're not comfortable entirely with the idea that that's public 1:46:00.640 --> 1:46:02.400 and it'd be like if you got if you own 1:46:02.400 --> 1:46:04.320 the land, you should be able to have more say 1:46:04.320 --> 1:46:06.200 and what goes on on it. UM. I'll point out 1:46:06.240 --> 1:46:08.519 we told a story before, but this whole thing comes 1:46:08.560 --> 1:46:12.719 from UM. A long time ago there was a there's 1:46:12.720 --> 1:46:15.080 a Supreme you know, there's a Supreme Court decision of 1:46:15.240 --> 1:46:17.160 other things where there was a guy and he was 1:46:17.479 --> 1:46:20.639 he owned some land on the beach and people would 1:46:20.680 --> 1:46:24.439 pick oysters, would collect oysters off the beach. And the 1:46:24.479 --> 1:46:27.240 guy was like, hey, man, um, you can't pick those 1:46:27.280 --> 1:46:30.920 oysters up. Those are I own the oysters because I 1:46:30.960 --> 1:46:34.559 own the land on the oysters and UM, and he 1:46:35.040 --> 1:46:37.600 traced back his ownership at these oysters or something like 1:46:37.680 --> 1:46:41.400 land grant from the King of England. So he's like thereby, 1:46:42.160 --> 1:46:46.519 my wild my land, my wildlife. And eventually goes to 1:46:46.520 --> 1:46:50.880 the Supreme Court and it's determined that Um, with the 1:46:50.920 --> 1:46:55.720 declaration of independence, those things that belonged to the sovereign, 1:46:56.080 --> 1:46:58.720 like those things that belonged to the king, became the 1:46:58.720 --> 1:47:02.120 property of the people. I'm doing this like very shorthand version. 1:47:02.640 --> 1:47:07.800 Therefore you don't know on the oysters. Sorry, like king 1:47:07.840 --> 1:47:10.080 game to you, but not anymore. We're done with that 1:47:10.080 --> 1:47:13.320 stuff now. Now we're America and we have this new idea, 1:47:13.560 --> 1:47:16.160 which is public wildlife. It's not like in Europe where 1:47:16.160 --> 1:47:21.160 you you know the king's deer. Um. How do you 1:47:21.640 --> 1:47:23.599 I know you earlier saying you have you're not able 1:47:23.640 --> 1:47:26.000 to advocate or you need to be more like a 1:47:26.040 --> 1:47:31.320 passive bystander, as an agency, an initiative. Okay, what about 1:47:31.360 --> 1:47:33.800 something like this? Can you, like, are you able to 1:47:33.880 --> 1:47:39.479 flex some muscle and stand up for public wildlife or 1:47:39.520 --> 1:47:44.479 you just have to be like whatever way the wind blows. Um. 1:47:44.560 --> 1:47:47.559 If that's the question, well, I mean, I think it's 1:47:47.600 --> 1:47:52.480 the law. I think it's the public trust. And wildlife 1:47:52.520 --> 1:47:56.800 is embedded in our um, in the fabric of our country. 1:47:56.880 --> 1:48:00.719 It's embedded in you know, think of people love block lands, 1:48:01.640 --> 1:48:06.240 public wildlife. It's part of why we have some of 1:48:06.240 --> 1:48:14.120 the species diversity and abundance that we have. UM So 1:48:15.040 --> 1:48:18.360 I don't. It's not advocating for a certain point of view, 1:48:18.479 --> 1:48:21.120 because it is. It's a fact of life. It is 1:48:21.160 --> 1:48:26.800 what it is right now. Certainly in Montana. Now Utah 1:48:28.000 --> 1:48:32.160 wildlife is monetized more than in Montana, where you know, 1:48:32.240 --> 1:48:36.880 a landowner can get landowner tags or whatever, and there's 1:48:36.920 --> 1:48:40.880 certainly people who are interested in that happening in more 1:48:40.960 --> 1:48:48.200 places in the country. UM. I have learned in being director. 1:48:48.240 --> 1:48:49.880 I mean there are lots of things that I've had 1:48:49.920 --> 1:48:52.559 to learn along the way. And I think there's so 1:48:52.680 --> 1:48:57.720 many sort of unspoken rules, and I've tried to learn them, 1:48:57.760 --> 1:49:01.559 and I think we should make them spoken about what 1:49:01.640 --> 1:49:06.200 we think is different in Montana than say in Utah 1:49:06.520 --> 1:49:09.800 or Colorado and some of our neighboring states. And I 1:49:09.920 --> 1:49:12.599 say that to learn that because if our job at 1:49:12.680 --> 1:49:16.640 Montana Fish Wildlife from Parks is to protect the integrity 1:49:16.720 --> 1:49:20.679 of the Montana outdoor experience, to protect that, we need 1:49:20.720 --> 1:49:24.040 to know what might be different here than elsewhere. And 1:49:24.080 --> 1:49:29.040 I think we as people as citizens, whether citizen of 1:49:29.120 --> 1:49:34.120 Montana or citizens somewhere else, as hunters, anglers, certainly as managers, 1:49:35.280 --> 1:49:39.160 I think we need to understand how we got to 1:49:39.200 --> 1:49:42.880 where we are, That it wasn't by happenstance. The fact 1:49:42.880 --> 1:49:47.960 that we UM have this equitable opportunity in Montana, the 1:49:48.000 --> 1:49:52.519 fact that wildlife is truly public, that we haven't monetized it, 1:49:53.120 --> 1:49:57.400 the fact that we have the experiences to rivers and 1:49:58.520 --> 1:50:03.800 UM across the state that we do. It's it's on purpose, 1:50:04.400 --> 1:50:07.320 it was all, you know, It's part of our that 1:50:07.479 --> 1:50:12.080 North American UM model. It's part of our system. And 1:50:12.120 --> 1:50:15.960 if we don't understand that, and we don't understand what 1:50:16.240 --> 1:50:20.280 makes it different and special compared to somewhere else, how 1:50:20.320 --> 1:50:24.200 do we make sure that continues. So I feel like 1:50:24.240 --> 1:50:29.360 it's my job to be not necessarily advocating, although I 1:50:29.400 --> 1:50:32.799 think I'm comfortable here because there's not an initiative or something. 1:50:32.840 --> 1:50:36.040 This is what developed as a state, and I think 1:50:36.080 --> 1:50:40.320 that makes a state special UM to pay. It's my 1:50:40.439 --> 1:50:43.479 job to pay attention to what that is and be 1:50:44.720 --> 1:50:47.960 UM explicit. If we're going to deviate from that and 1:50:48.080 --> 1:50:52.240 change it, we need to understand what that difference would mean. 1:50:52.880 --> 1:50:56.080 So if we were to privatize wildlife and I and 1:50:56.080 --> 1:50:59.760 and if we were to allow give change, what we 1:50:59.840 --> 1:51:04.639 have of now where landowners are treated like anybody else. 1:51:04.680 --> 1:51:08.400 It's an opportunity state, UM, where landowners don't have any 1:51:08.520 --> 1:51:13.640 rights to wildlife much different than the general public or 1:51:13.840 --> 1:51:18.200 a license holder. UM. If we were to change that, 1:51:19.240 --> 1:51:23.759 what would that mean? And we certainly could as a state, 1:51:24.280 --> 1:51:26.920 But I think we need to understand what we have 1:51:27.040 --> 1:51:31.439 in place now, what makes it special before just saying Okay, 1:51:31.479 --> 1:51:34.040 it's all right to change that, Because I think when you, 1:51:34.640 --> 1:51:37.519 as you've said, it's hard to put a genie back 1:51:37.520 --> 1:51:40.479 in the bottle. You know, when you change something or 1:51:40.600 --> 1:51:44.160 you allow you give somebody a right, it's a whole 1:51:44.200 --> 1:51:47.320 lot harder to take that right away than to just 1:51:47.439 --> 1:51:49.400 not give it to them to begin with, or to 1:51:49.479 --> 1:51:53.439 do it incrementally. So I think in this instance, what 1:51:53.720 --> 1:51:58.000 makes the experience in Montana pretty special we better be 1:51:58.200 --> 1:52:02.880 careful at it's saying oh, it's fine to change that 1:52:03.000 --> 1:52:07.080 without really understanding what we're doing it does, without inviting 1:52:07.080 --> 1:52:11.320 people to understand the foundation. Yeah, someone's like, why don't 1:52:11.320 --> 1:52:15.200 we have more landowner tags? You could say we could have, 1:52:15.520 --> 1:52:18.240 could we could, But let's look at how we came 1:52:18.320 --> 1:52:22.360 to sort of the underlying like foundational principles that led 1:52:22.439 --> 1:52:25.920 us to be that we like democratic allocation right. And 1:52:26.640 --> 1:52:30.400 I also think it's really fair to realize, like this 1:52:30.479 --> 1:52:33.679 is inside baseball, this is something we all think about. 1:52:33.840 --> 1:52:36.519 You clearly think about it, and it's great to talk about. 1:52:37.280 --> 1:52:42.080 But not everybody knows this. We shouldn't assume that people 1:52:42.200 --> 1:52:45.720 realize how important it is that we do have this 1:52:45.800 --> 1:52:48.880 public trust in wild life, that all everybody has a 1:52:48.960 --> 1:52:53.559 piece of this. It's it's complicated enough where I have 1:52:54.240 --> 1:52:58.880 purchased and hunted off of landowner tags. When we talk 1:52:58.920 --> 1:53:00.720 about land ard tag, what that's why to tell people 1:53:00.720 --> 1:53:02.960 at land artaga is land ard tag would be that 1:53:03.320 --> 1:53:08.400 UM in whatever particular game management unit or wherever you have, 1:53:08.520 --> 1:53:10.960 they might be the people who own x number of 1:53:11.000 --> 1:53:15.320 acres um deserve to get some like payback for them 1:53:15.360 --> 1:53:17.680 owning land that has animals on it. So if you 1:53:17.760 --> 1:53:21.679 own four acres, they're gonna give you two deer tags. 1:53:21.960 --> 1:53:23.920 Everybody else needs to try to apply for a tag 1:53:23.960 --> 1:53:26.200 and win in a drawing. And then in some cases 1:53:26.320 --> 1:53:28.400 you can take your two deer tags and sell them. 1:53:28.600 --> 1:53:31.800 And that wasn't in Montana. No, no, no not. You 1:53:31.800 --> 1:53:34.519 can sell them to the highest bidder. Um they're just 1:53:34.600 --> 1:53:37.280 years to have and then you get them that way, 1:53:37.320 --> 1:53:40.040 just by the simple fact of owning land, you get tags, 1:53:40.439 --> 1:53:42.800 and then other people get them the good old fashioned ways. 1:53:43.120 --> 1:53:46.759 What I'm saying is I've bought and have been given 1:53:47.439 --> 1:53:52.520 landowner tags and other states, and even with that, uh, 1:53:52.720 --> 1:53:58.439 even having done that, I still them a little bit like, um, 1:53:58.479 --> 1:54:01.479 I'm not sure how I feel about them. I remember 1:54:01.520 --> 1:54:04.040 we had a podcast guest time one time that has 1:54:04.080 --> 1:54:06.800 a place on the coast, has a place on the 1:54:06.840 --> 1:54:11.240 California coast, and he doesn't He didn't say this when 1:54:11.240 --> 1:54:13.760 we interviewed him, but he had said it elsewhere. He 1:54:13.840 --> 1:54:16.200 lives in a house on the beach, and he says, 1:54:16.200 --> 1:54:17.400 I don't even think you should be able to have 1:54:17.439 --> 1:54:19.720 a house on the beach. But I'm gonna stay in 1:54:19.760 --> 1:54:22.679 mine until it's illegal. Then I will happily move out 1:54:22.720 --> 1:54:24.920 once I know that someone else isn't gonna move into it. 1:54:25.280 --> 1:54:29.240 So like I'm just pointed out, because like I was magnanimous, 1:54:29.320 --> 1:54:32.760 not everyone would sit. So it's like I get him, 1:54:32.960 --> 1:54:35.480 and I still get him, and I still a little 1:54:35.520 --> 1:54:37.400 bit like, I don't know, man, is this like the 1:54:37.520 --> 1:54:48.040 right thing, the right way to uh that you are? Um, 1:54:48.120 --> 1:54:53.560 that you're hunting the King's deer. Right, That's what he 1:54:53.640 --> 1:54:56.840 taught me about it, that it's some that it's tags, 1:54:58.120 --> 1:55:00.480 And I guess I've I've had in my life through 1:55:00.560 --> 1:55:06.560 various ways for landowner tags um or the equivalent of 1:55:06.640 --> 1:55:12.120 land ard tags four times. And then it would be that, uh, 1:55:12.160 --> 1:55:18.480 I got those opportunities because of my connection to or 1:55:18.600 --> 1:55:24.400 my personal being like someone of means, and there was 1:55:24.480 --> 1:55:29.720 four opportunities that would have been distributed more equitably and 1:55:29.760 --> 1:55:33.480 more democratically to others. So I went into the woods 1:55:33.920 --> 1:55:37.040 because of being a man of means or having relations 1:55:37.080 --> 1:55:43.200 that way, and other people stayed home because they're not right. 1:55:43.880 --> 1:55:46.400 That eats at me. But then you can also be like, oh, 1:55:46.480 --> 1:55:48.560 life a fair whatever, like there's all kinds of ways 1:55:48.560 --> 1:55:53.680 to write it all. Yeah, well yeah, you know, like 1:55:54.120 --> 1:55:58.160 I'm a good friend, right so uh yeah, man, it 1:55:58.240 --> 1:56:02.720 bounces around and uh to if I put in for 1:56:02.760 --> 1:56:07.320 a draw and like draw the tag, dude, I'm elated. Yeah, 1:56:07.640 --> 1:56:13.520 guilt free hunting guilt. Yeah. So when I'm pointing, I'm 1:56:13.520 --> 1:56:14.720 not on even know what I'm getting at. I'm just 1:56:14.760 --> 1:56:17.280 getting at the idea that it's like that there's these 1:56:17.320 --> 1:56:21.200 sort of ideas out there that that um I haven't 1:56:21.200 --> 1:56:23.200 even totally unpacked. How I feel you get us on 1:56:23.240 --> 1:56:29.120 the subject of governor's tags talking about its ambivalence, all right, 1:56:29.760 --> 1:56:33.640 I see both sides. Well, you know, the interesting thing 1:56:33.680 --> 1:56:36.280 in Montana and not to get it down on governor 1:56:36.400 --> 1:56:39.120 down the road on Governor's takes, but where we're at 1:56:39.240 --> 1:56:45.160 is and you know, wildlife management is a is a 1:56:45.240 --> 1:56:49.960 complex situation that you know, complex field for us obviously, 1:56:50.000 --> 1:56:51.720 but there's a lot of but there's a lot of 1:56:51.760 --> 1:56:54.000 values at the table, and there's a lot of interest 1:56:54.040 --> 1:56:57.280 at the table, including landowners. We don't get to we 1:56:57.400 --> 1:57:02.120 get to just manage wildlife without sort of considering all 1:57:02.160 --> 1:57:05.920 those sorts of relationships and those partnerships. And we've talked 1:57:05.920 --> 1:57:09.640 about this a lot in in that department recently. Is 1:57:10.760 --> 1:57:15.040 it's critical our landowner relationships are critical. I mean, there's 1:57:15.160 --> 1:57:19.080 a ton of habitat in Montana that is critical that's 1:57:19.080 --> 1:57:21.400 on private land. Oh, if you look at I mean 1:57:21.840 --> 1:57:25.640 private land, private land conservation, if you just look at 1:57:25.680 --> 1:57:30.640 it and whatever is in square units of space, private 1:57:30.720 --> 1:57:33.880 land conservation is more important in public wayAnd conservation because 1:57:33.920 --> 1:57:35.920 more of the country's private land, Like if they all 1:57:35.920 --> 1:57:39.240 decided just to piss it all away. Everyone's done. We're done, 1:57:39.680 --> 1:57:43.120 Like we can't have wildlife if private landowners decided that 1:57:43.120 --> 1:57:44.720 they didn't care about wild life anymore and they're just 1:57:44.760 --> 1:57:48.640 going to destroy it all of course, of course, uh, 1:57:48.720 --> 1:57:52.440 And no one is suggesting that you should be forced 1:57:52.480 --> 1:57:55.960 to allow access on your property. Like if you own 1:57:56.040 --> 1:57:59.680 land and there's animals on it, you have right and 1:57:59.680 --> 1:58:01.680 no one can go, No one can go. No one's 1:58:01.760 --> 1:58:04.080 questioning that. But we're talking about is like do you, 1:58:05.040 --> 1:58:10.800 by by fact of you owning the land, do you 1:58:10.880 --> 1:58:15.320 then get the animals too, which is us, which would 1:58:15.360 --> 1:58:19.680 be giving something that didn't previously belong to you to you. Right, 1:58:19.680 --> 1:58:22.880 it's not like you're not writing momentum, it's a new idea, 1:58:24.000 --> 1:58:26.760 Like that's the thing, you know. Well, I feel like 1:58:26.760 --> 1:58:29.880 we often get accused of like being down on on 1:58:30.040 --> 1:58:32.200 private land all the time. Man, I have, like I 1:58:32.200 --> 1:58:34.320 have a lot of friends that you know, it's bad 1:58:34.360 --> 1:58:36.879 when people say that, A lot of friends that manage 1:58:36.960 --> 1:58:41.240 land specifically for wildlife and phenomenal stewards and it's absolutely 1:58:41.240 --> 1:58:47.200 important and we're really thankful to them. But right, but like, 1:58:47.400 --> 1:58:50.280 do you get to own the stuff that's walking across it. 1:58:51.200 --> 1:58:54.760 So and I think that sounds too much like a 1:58:55.240 --> 1:59:02.480 UM one or the other. And and uh, while landowners 1:59:02.560 --> 1:59:06.840 definitely have the right to determine access on their land 1:59:07.440 --> 1:59:09.880 UM and they can determine if there's hunting at all. 1:59:10.120 --> 1:59:15.960 Oh yeah, for sure. The piece that is often missing. 1:59:16.040 --> 1:59:19.160 And I'm going to my next director's message or the 1:59:19.200 --> 1:59:22.040 one after that talk about this more. I mean, I 1:59:22.080 --> 1:59:25.920 do think as an agency we can do a better 1:59:26.040 --> 1:59:32.680 job of appreciating the conservation and access the opportunities that 1:59:32.840 --> 1:59:36.680 happen on private land. Like you said, we could not 1:59:37.920 --> 1:59:43.720 manage wildlife and provide these opportunities without partnering with landowners. 1:59:43.800 --> 1:59:48.080 There are critical peace and we're really thankful for that. 1:59:48.200 --> 1:59:50.760 And so I think you're right. Sometimes when we talk 1:59:50.800 --> 1:59:55.000 about the public trust and wildlife, it gets too wrapped 1:59:55.080 --> 2:00:00.040 up in access and and landowners and letting people on 2:00:00.560 --> 2:00:04.440 or not. And I think we need to do a 2:00:04.440 --> 2:00:10.160 better job of just saying private land is critical. They 2:00:10.160 --> 2:00:13.480 play a really important role not only in the habitat 2:00:13.520 --> 2:00:18.080 for wildlife and specific wildlife species, they also I think 2:00:18.120 --> 2:00:22.800 that we've talked about this, they're facing these um global 2:00:23.120 --> 2:00:30.240 economic forces where I really worry about losing long term 2:00:30.320 --> 2:00:34.320 landowners on the landscape and and losing their peace of 2:00:34.360 --> 2:00:40.000 these rural communities that are also really important for habitat 2:00:40.080 --> 2:00:43.760 and wildlife species and are important to this Montana way 2:00:43.800 --> 2:00:48.520 of life. There there intertwined with what we do it 2:00:48.640 --> 2:00:50.680 should be. We had the writer Tom mcgwain on the 2:00:50.680 --> 2:00:53.960 show and he mentioned how when a ranch, when a 2:00:54.080 --> 2:01:01.800 ranch gets sold, biodiversity goes down. I worry. I'm totally 2:01:01.800 --> 2:01:04.880 worried about that. I think we should be doing all 2:01:04.920 --> 2:01:07.560 that we can to support these families that have been 2:01:07.600 --> 2:01:09.600 on the land for a long time. And we're seeing 2:01:10.360 --> 2:01:14.720 right a trend at least in the Midwest of family 2:01:14.760 --> 2:01:19.000 farms going under, and that's gonna spell trouble I believe 2:01:19.040 --> 2:01:23.520 for wildlife, yeah, I feel, and water and real community, 2:01:23.560 --> 2:01:25.640 I mean, all sorts of things. We had a conversation 2:01:25.680 --> 2:01:28.640 the other day about when a landowner and rolls and 2:01:28.760 --> 2:01:31.320 the Black Management Program, which is a public access program 2:01:31.720 --> 2:01:35.840 where landowners get, you know, a small compensation for the 2:01:36.040 --> 2:01:39.080 impacts for for letting people you know, A small yeah, 2:01:39.680 --> 2:01:41.600 a small I don't even know if you'd call a 2:01:41.640 --> 2:01:44.640 payment a small compensation for allowing public hunting access on 2:01:44.680 --> 2:01:47.800 their property. I was saying that, Um, I feel that 2:01:48.400 --> 2:01:51.080 I wouldn't want to make them uncomfortable, but one should 2:01:51.080 --> 2:01:53.120 really go up and give them a big hug. Yeah, 2:01:53.760 --> 2:01:57.000 because it's like people be like, oh, they're getting paid. 2:01:57.000 --> 2:02:01.400 It's like, listen, this is not they are not getting paid, 2:02:01.800 --> 2:02:08.480 getting paid nominally for the impacts the public hunters like 2:02:08.560 --> 2:02:12.720 you should go up and clean their boots when you 2:02:12.760 --> 2:02:15.120 see them, and to have any sort of attitude that 2:02:15.200 --> 2:02:18.320 you have that they're like that you're doing them a 2:02:18.320 --> 2:02:22.760 favor or whatever by using the access program. And how 2:02:22.760 --> 2:02:27.080 many of the wrong we're looking at you guys don't 2:02:27.120 --> 2:02:29.880 do this, but a lot of hunters get the landowners 2:02:29.920 --> 2:02:32.520 help them go retrieve their game. I mean, they're out there, 2:02:32.520 --> 2:02:37.600 but the baco or they're really they're pretty darn helpful 2:02:37.680 --> 2:02:40.120 and encouraging to give them a hug and clean their 2:02:40.120 --> 2:02:45.520 boots and send them presents if they are willing to 2:02:45.560 --> 2:02:50.920 allow public access through through a state program like that. Uh, 2:02:51.080 --> 2:02:52.560 all right, what do we What have I not asked you? 2:02:52.600 --> 2:02:57.040 Both of you trying to talk about No, I don't 2:02:57.080 --> 2:03:00.680 like to talk about myself. So let's seat hops. Have 2:03:00.840 --> 2:03:05.000 we not covered you skipped grizzly bears, but that's okay. Yeah, 2:03:05.080 --> 2:03:08.560 we caught wolves a couple of times we rolled into that. 2:03:08.560 --> 2:03:11.760 Do you want are you dying to talk about grizzlies? Uh? No, 2:03:12.560 --> 2:03:14.560 although I think that would you like to see would 2:03:14.600 --> 2:03:18.320 you like to see your agency take would you know 2:03:18.440 --> 2:03:20.320 I just asked for this one. Would you like to 2:03:20.360 --> 2:03:25.120 see your agency takeover management from the Feds and the 2:03:25.120 --> 2:03:28.560 grizzlies to go to state management? Of course? Do you 2:03:28.600 --> 2:03:30.640 feel that you guys would just run him in the ground. 2:03:30.640 --> 2:03:36.160 They'd go extend we're bad or not? You can't. We can't, 2:03:36.200 --> 2:03:39.000 That's right, we can't. I think people forget that it's 2:03:39.040 --> 2:03:43.040 our responsibility to make sure they stay recovered because they 2:03:43.080 --> 2:03:45.480 could go right back. No, we couldn't do that. We 2:03:45.520 --> 2:03:50.120 should saying that right if the States screwed it up, 2:03:50.320 --> 2:03:52.920 could go back to the Feds, they would be right 2:03:53.040 --> 2:03:56.160 shooting themselves in the foot. But whatever your motivations are, 2:03:56.160 --> 2:03:58.880 it wouldn't make any sense to have it go bad. No. Now, 2:03:59.760 --> 2:04:02.600 I think it's just our responsibility, and I do think 2:04:02.640 --> 2:04:05.840 Montana's been really good at taking I mean, wolves are 2:04:05.880 --> 2:04:09.560 an example where we've been measured in our approach. Sometimes 2:04:09.640 --> 2:04:12.560 wish we were less measured. But I it goes back 2:04:12.560 --> 2:04:14.920 to that switch. I don't think that you know one 2:04:15.000 --> 2:04:16.720 day they're listed in the next or not, and you 2:04:16.760 --> 2:04:21.360 can go out and hunt them all. It's an incremental process. 2:04:21.960 --> 2:04:24.120 Do you do you like to do crystal ball kind 2:04:24.120 --> 2:04:30.760 of stuff? Never have you get what you pay for? Well, 2:04:30.800 --> 2:04:32.600 I want to ask you, like you looking into a 2:04:32.600 --> 2:04:34.920 crystal ball. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You get to 2:04:35.120 --> 2:04:39.960 pay for their meaning. I'm not paying anything, yes, Just 2:04:40.120 --> 2:04:46.320 to be um, where are we at like our well, well, 2:04:46.320 --> 2:04:49.680 grizzly bears fall to state. Well, grizzly bears get pulled 2:04:49.680 --> 2:04:53.960 off the Endangered Species Act listing and become no longer 2:04:54.000 --> 2:04:56.840 threatened and get handed over to state management in five years, 2:04:57.240 --> 2:05:01.120 ten years. Someday you think so, someday I do think so. 2:05:01.320 --> 2:05:06.520 I've asked, um, I've asked that to the head of 2:05:06.840 --> 2:05:10.600 um Fishing Wildlife. Well, I've asked the head of I've 2:05:10.600 --> 2:05:13.200 asked that to the head of the Idaho fishing Game. 2:05:14.120 --> 2:05:16.040 I asked it to the head of Wyoming's fishing game, 2:05:16.560 --> 2:05:20.200 and I asked it to the head of Montana's fishing game. Now, 2:05:21.480 --> 2:05:24.720 and we also asked the felt that we had. I 2:05:24.720 --> 2:05:27.920 don't know if he's the head of the Inner Agency 2:05:27.960 --> 2:05:33.880 Grizzly Bear Committee. Yeah, I haven't that. You're the only 2:05:33.880 --> 2:05:36.640 one I've asked publicly. You're the only one I've asked publicly. 2:05:37.160 --> 2:05:38.720 The other two I asked. I'm not gonna tell you 2:05:38.760 --> 2:05:41.560 who gave what. But I got one no, one yes. 2:05:42.440 --> 2:05:47.200 In ten years, our grizzly Bear is going to be 2:05:47.640 --> 2:05:51.640 under state management. Yes, really, yes, So I've got two 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:55.440 yes is in one no? Yeah, I feel like we're 2:05:56.600 --> 2:06:00.360 doing the best weekend. So what I would you want 2:06:00.400 --> 2:06:05.320 to talk about? There's I firmly believe that the governor 2:06:05.400 --> 2:06:10.160 created this Grizzly Bear Advisory Council and it pulled We 2:06:10.240 --> 2:06:14.200 got over a hundred and seventy applications for eighteen spots, 2:06:14.680 --> 2:06:19.360 and it pulled people from all over the state different perspectives, 2:06:20.240 --> 2:06:25.080 And to me, that's how we solve issues in Montana. 2:06:25.160 --> 2:06:28.040 That is something that where we do our best work, 2:06:28.120 --> 2:06:30.680 where it doesn't come to the department. It's not my 2:06:31.360 --> 2:06:35.600 opinion that matters are Greggs for that. It's this council 2:06:35.760 --> 2:06:38.600 where people get together and hash out some of the 2:06:38.760 --> 2:06:42.360 hard stuff with Grizzly Bear management and it is hard 2:06:43.280 --> 2:06:47.040 and give a recommendation. That's an example of why I 2:06:47.080 --> 2:06:50.720 think we will get there and that we're on it 2:06:50.840 --> 2:06:56.320 with the science. We are committed and we're getting Montana's 2:06:56.400 --> 2:06:59.920 really engaged to help us figure out the best best 2:07:00.040 --> 2:07:02.840 path forward. And I really do think that's the way 2:07:02.880 --> 2:07:04.720 you do it. You don't have just the FEDS coming 2:07:04.760 --> 2:07:08.520 in and saying you do this or you don't do that. 2:07:08.720 --> 2:07:12.520 It's a it's a collection where we try to figure 2:07:12.560 --> 2:07:15.560 out what makes the most sense in Montana. You know, 2:07:16.200 --> 2:07:17.680 I'm not gonna ask you to comment on this, but 2:07:17.720 --> 2:07:21.160 it's a funny observation that all the work that goes 2:07:21.200 --> 2:07:25.640 into that went into wolf delisting and it's going into 2:07:25.680 --> 2:07:28.320 grizzly delisting now, Like does all this work that happens? 2:07:29.360 --> 2:07:34.040 And then people always litigate it in such a way 2:07:34.080 --> 2:07:37.200 that it winds up in the court in Missoula because 2:07:37.200 --> 2:07:39.080 they know that the judge of missoul will throw it out. 2:07:40.000 --> 2:07:42.120 It's like all this work at all, this where you're like, yeah, 2:07:42.160 --> 2:07:45.520 but they still got the same person still sits in 2:07:45.600 --> 2:07:50.080 the federal court and so until whatever, they don't know 2:07:50.080 --> 2:07:54.640 what happens if they retire. Oh careful with me. I 2:07:54.760 --> 2:07:57.600 think that will we can get it through him. And 2:07:57.680 --> 2:08:00.800 I say that because when I taught at the law school, 2:08:01.880 --> 2:08:08.280 I UM the Wolverine litigation. I took my students, UM, 2:08:08.320 --> 2:08:11.560 we read the briefs, we went to the oral argument, 2:08:12.680 --> 2:08:15.840 he issued his decision. He came to our class and 2:08:15.960 --> 2:08:19.000 explained his decision, and like the good lawyer and the 2:08:19.040 --> 2:08:23.040 bad loring or whatever, and we got to listen and 2:08:23.120 --> 2:08:27.520 learn through the whole process. So I think to believe 2:08:27.560 --> 2:08:30.200 in the judicial system, you think, you think that you 2:08:30.200 --> 2:08:32.480 think that that individual is actually doing their job and 2:08:32.480 --> 2:08:34.160 they don't just be like I don't care how I 2:08:34.200 --> 2:08:35.640 do it, but I'm gonna damn sure make that no 2:08:35.640 --> 2:08:39.120 one hunts a grizzy bear. I don't think that was 2:08:39.160 --> 2:08:44.800 in the decision. I think it's easy. I think it 2:08:44.880 --> 2:08:50.880 was lurking around, lurking around. Um. But I don't want 2:08:50.920 --> 2:08:53.280 you to comment on that. I'm way off into like, 2:08:53.520 --> 2:08:57.160 you know, just hunches, and I know you probably don't 2:08:57.160 --> 2:09:00.000 get the deal, and hunches a whole bunch probably shouldn't, 2:09:00.320 --> 2:09:03.560 but also doesn't it Do you feel that it largely 2:09:03.560 --> 2:09:07.360 depends to just kind of like how you know we're 2:09:07.400 --> 2:09:12.040 gonna have either continuation of the same administration in Washington 2:09:12.160 --> 2:09:15.800 or potentially a new administration of Washington, and these kind 2:09:15.840 --> 2:09:17.720 of like big things wind up being so much bigger 2:09:17.720 --> 2:09:21.560 than the state, right like right, it kind of depend 2:09:21.640 --> 2:09:26.160 on whatever whatever, like high like high level leadership or 2:09:26.200 --> 2:09:27.920 do you think do you think that a decision like 2:09:27.960 --> 2:09:30.440 this could wind up happening regardless of input from Washington 2:09:30.520 --> 2:09:33.320 d C. Yeah, I don't think that the change in 2:09:33.400 --> 2:09:37.680 administrations should have that much of an impact on the 2:09:37.840 --> 2:09:41.240 Fish and Wildlife Services decision on whether the list or 2:09:41.320 --> 2:09:43.320 d list is that? Right, They don't just make a call, 2:09:44.760 --> 2:09:47.720 and they're like, you know, they can't. You don't always 2:09:47.800 --> 2:09:50.800 laughed about I'm gonna go back to you can see 2:09:50.800 --> 2:09:52.400 you got anything to add, But I always laughed about 2:09:54.320 --> 2:09:58.760 in New York, Build A Blasio all the problems, like 2:09:58.840 --> 2:10:00.680 you know, he becomes the mayor of New like everything 2:10:00.680 --> 2:10:02.440 that goes out of New York. You can imagine all 2:10:02.480 --> 2:10:07.320 the issues, right you yeah, like every like the subway 2:10:07.400 --> 2:10:12.080 is counter terrorism and you know, you know, Russian oligarchs 2:10:12.120 --> 2:10:15.360 buying up really like whatever, all these issues and I remember, 2:10:15.600 --> 2:10:18.320 Build A Blasio wins and he gets the thing, and 2:10:18.400 --> 2:10:22.520 one of his first actions as mayor is that what 2:10:22.680 --> 2:10:28.360 this city really needs is to not have carriage horse 2:10:28.440 --> 2:10:32.000 carriage rides in Central Park because it's mean to the horses. 2:10:32.360 --> 2:10:36.920 And remember being like, there's no way that that's something 2:10:37.000 --> 2:10:41.920 he natively thought of. It was someone had said, here, man, 2:10:42.000 --> 2:10:45.600 here's a bunch of like, uh, campaign money. He didn't 2:10:45.640 --> 2:10:48.600 have a bad carriage ride. But he's like, he's like 2:10:48.880 --> 2:10:51.400 and then he wins. He's like, dah, man, I forgot. 2:10:51.440 --> 2:10:53.840 Now I gotta do something about stupid carriage rides. I 2:10:53.880 --> 2:10:57.120 promised someone I would do that, like, and so I 2:10:57.320 --> 2:11:00.560 I view that I can't help but view that when 2:11:00.600 --> 2:11:04.640 the next that that when the next presidential election happens, 2:11:05.160 --> 2:11:09.200 that there's not someone planting in someone's ear the idea 2:11:09.240 --> 2:11:11.520 that I will tell you one thing that cannot happen. 2:11:12.280 --> 2:11:15.920 We do not want to see those bears delisted, and 2:11:15.960 --> 2:11:18.920 that someone would like that they would apply some level 2:11:18.960 --> 2:11:22.480 of force in some weird hidden way. I don't have 2:11:22.600 --> 2:11:30.400 any doubt that someone might plant those seeds. But having worked, yeah, 2:11:30.440 --> 2:11:32.560 I'm just a dumba. I'm just a dumbas talking. I mean, 2:11:33.800 --> 2:11:37.160 I worked in the Solicitor's office for the Department of 2:11:37.200 --> 2:11:41.440 the Interior on the Endangered Species Act to subject matter experts. 2:11:41.480 --> 2:11:50.040 So we worked our tails off to not have there 2:11:50.160 --> 2:11:56.800 there was no political influence in our decision packages on 2:11:57.000 --> 2:12:00.240 listing or delisting. I know people don't believe that. No 2:12:00.720 --> 2:12:07.960 one's gonna believe that, but you're looking and so and 2:12:08.400 --> 2:12:10.760 I think you see that there hasn't. There may have 2:12:10.800 --> 2:12:15.520 been a big shift and policy and interior from administration 2:12:15.560 --> 2:12:19.200 to administration, but if you look at the decision packages 2:12:19.280 --> 2:12:22.400 coming out on listing or delisting species, I don't think 2:12:22.440 --> 2:12:26.920 you're seeing a giant shift. Now, strike me down. People 2:12:27.560 --> 2:12:30.000 hard left, hard right wouldn't agree with me there. But 2:12:30.080 --> 2:12:34.480 I think there's so many um the laws in play, 2:12:34.520 --> 2:12:39.240 there's so many systems in place that it's hard to 2:12:39.840 --> 2:12:45.640 politically influence those types of scientific decisions. And I don't 2:12:45.640 --> 2:12:48.600 think I'm just being Pollyanna. I think that's really the 2:12:48.640 --> 2:12:52.240 way it's set up. Other things too bad. There's there's 2:12:52.360 --> 2:12:58.000 policy influence, But on listing and delisting grizzly Bears, I 2:12:58.040 --> 2:13:03.560 believe they're going to be delisted because as Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, 2:13:04.120 --> 2:13:06.480 we are starting to work together, and I think a 2:13:06.520 --> 2:13:09.880 lot of people are coming together to make sure we've 2:13:09.960 --> 2:13:14.840 demonstrated for if it goes to Judge Christensen that everything's 2:13:14.880 --> 2:13:19.480 in place and we've adhered to what's required to delist them. 2:13:19.840 --> 2:13:24.600 I hope you're right, it's just how long? How long out? 2:13:24.720 --> 2:13:26.880 I believe it will be done in ten years? Done 2:13:26.920 --> 2:13:29.440 in ten years? Yeah? Man? Why do you so much 2:13:29.480 --> 2:13:30.920 to go home and hug my kids? Why do you 2:13:30.960 --> 2:13:33.680 home so much hope that she's right? Why do I 2:13:33.720 --> 2:13:35.640 hope that? Are you asking? Why do I hope the 2:13:35.680 --> 2:13:39.720 grizzy bears get delisted? Because I feel like it's an instance, 2:13:40.080 --> 2:13:43.080 it's twofold one. I feel like it's an instance where 2:13:43.080 --> 2:13:47.680 people are weaponizing the Endangered Species Act, meaning it's beyond 2:13:47.760 --> 2:13:51.320 any conversation about what the Endangered Species Act is supposed 2:13:51.320 --> 2:13:54.040 to be used for and what its function is, and 2:13:54.080 --> 2:13:56.920 it's just being weaponized as a tool to get what 2:13:56.960 --> 2:13:59.760 you would like to see happen. And people are like, 2:13:59.840 --> 2:14:03.440 they don't want there's people who do not want to 2:14:03.480 --> 2:14:06.720 see a grizzy bear and did not want to see 2:14:06.720 --> 2:14:11.120 a wolf get killed by a hunter. And they weren't 2:14:11.160 --> 2:14:15.240 debating anymore about whether or not the Act had worked, 2:14:15.800 --> 2:14:19.400 whether or not we had achieved recovery objectives, whether or 2:14:19.400 --> 2:14:24.040 not the whole system did what it was supposed to do. 2:14:24.600 --> 2:14:27.600 It's stopped being the debate. The debate became like if 2:14:27.640 --> 2:14:31.040 they d list, there could be hunting, So I will 2:14:31.120 --> 2:14:34.640 fight the de listing without articulating that that's why I'm 2:14:34.680 --> 2:14:38.440 doing it, And they became all these proxies, and so 2:14:38.520 --> 2:14:42.360 if we de list, do you think it'll be less 2:14:42.440 --> 2:14:47.600 easy to weaponize and to continue. That's why it's multifaceted 2:14:48.000 --> 2:14:50.440 because you have to take everything I just said with 2:14:51.040 --> 2:14:56.040 a grain of salt because I am personally biased for 2:14:56.800 --> 2:15:02.480 state management of wildlife, and I am uneasy with this 2:15:02.560 --> 2:15:07.680 is me talking personally personally biased towards state management, and 2:15:07.720 --> 2:15:14.120 I'm generally uneasy with federal management of wildlife unless it's 2:15:14.120 --> 2:15:17.680 a case where we really need federal management to keep 2:15:17.720 --> 2:15:21.240 the species from becoming imperiled and going extinct. But in 2:15:21.320 --> 2:15:24.480 cases of just federal management, because it means that the 2:15:24.560 --> 2:15:27.160 states wouldn't be able to have a hunting season, I 2:15:27.200 --> 2:15:29.360 just think that that's a bastardization of what the whole 2:15:29.360 --> 2:15:31.600 thing is supposed to, how it's supposed to function. So 2:15:31.680 --> 2:15:34.440 my bias, I'm biased as a hunter. So I'm just 2:15:34.520 --> 2:15:37.480 pointing that out. Less someone say everything you're saying about 2:15:37.480 --> 2:15:39.560 the Endangered Species Act, you're just saying because you like 2:15:39.600 --> 2:15:41.960 the hunt. I'm like, yes, I like the hunt, and 2:15:42.240 --> 2:15:45.360 I don't like the ESA being weaponized. There's plenty of 2:15:45.360 --> 2:15:47.720 the things that are not recovered that we I would 2:15:47.800 --> 2:15:50.280 argue we should be spending tons of money and energy 2:15:50.320 --> 2:15:53.600 on saving. That's not one of them anyway, in which 2:15:53.600 --> 2:15:58.000 we spelled out what recovery would look like back we've 2:15:58.000 --> 2:16:04.280 been there for thirteen or fourteen years now, right, So yeah, 2:16:04.480 --> 2:16:06.320 I'm go home and hugged my kids based off of 2:16:06.360 --> 2:16:11.120 what I just heard. I really children, it will be 2:16:11.160 --> 2:16:17.320 a beautiful world within a decade. Is that? Is that 2:16:17.400 --> 2:16:20.600 all fair? What I said, Martha, I don't want to 2:16:20.600 --> 2:16:22.960 pull you an awkward position. No, No, I mean I'm 2:16:23.080 --> 2:16:25.280 I've I've already been on the record saying that I 2:16:25.320 --> 2:16:27.960 believe in the Natured Species Act. I mean I do. 2:16:28.760 --> 2:16:32.600 I also think I personally think that grizzly bears are 2:16:32.720 --> 2:16:36.440 recovered because they've met the recovery goals. I think that 2:16:36.560 --> 2:16:40.720 the States we actually with grizzly bears um where we 2:16:40.800 --> 2:16:45.120 are sharing in management with the Fish and Wildlife Service 2:16:45.200 --> 2:16:48.600 and Wildlife Services. Now, I mean, no, one entity is 2:16:48.680 --> 2:16:51.440 doing it alone, so we're already kind of there. We 2:16:51.520 --> 2:16:54.080 do not have a hunting season, um and I think 2:16:54.080 --> 2:16:56.640 a hunting seasons are red herring. I don't think that's 2:16:56.680 --> 2:17:00.960 the issue. The issue is recovery of long recovery of bears. 2:17:01.400 --> 2:17:03.400 It is the is the issue. It is the issue. 2:17:03.680 --> 2:17:10.480 Did anyone sue against delisting bald eagles? Probably? I don't know, 2:17:10.600 --> 2:17:15.160 but probably. I mean I said that in that most 2:17:15.520 --> 2:17:19.240 listing and dealisting decisions get challenged by people who like 2:17:19.320 --> 2:17:23.200 them and don't like them, of both. Any decision by 2:17:23.240 --> 2:17:26.040 the US or shamildly service to do list or deal 2:17:26.040 --> 2:17:29.039 list a species is likely to get challenged from both 2:17:29.040 --> 2:17:31.560 sides everyone. I want to point. I want to go 2:17:31.600 --> 2:17:38.520 on recent. I love, like, love, love grizzly bears, love 2:17:38.560 --> 2:17:42.200 love love them. Yeah, how come? This is what I'm 2:17:42.200 --> 2:17:44.760 curious about, because you know, I'm in places that don't 2:17:44.800 --> 2:17:47.800 have them, and I'm wandering around. It feels like something's missing. 2:17:49.320 --> 2:17:52.280 I like them everything about them, like looking at him, 2:17:52.320 --> 2:17:54.200 I like being afraid of them. I like everything. Do 2:17:54.240 --> 2:17:57.680 you like that they're no longer top dog when reute? 2:17:58.680 --> 2:18:01.520 I love them. I'd like to seemn more places. I 2:18:01.520 --> 2:18:03.160 want to go on record saying that I'm wanna go 2:18:03.160 --> 2:18:05.600 on record saying I'm a stall a supporter of the 2:18:05.680 --> 2:18:09.560 Endangered Species Act in like in general as a thing, 2:18:09.959 --> 2:18:13.200 Like is it always used perfectly? No, It's like I'm 2:18:13.240 --> 2:18:15.119 in favor of having my kids live in my house. 2:18:16.360 --> 2:18:18.199 Are there like parts of things I wish they would 2:18:18.200 --> 2:18:20.280 do differently? It was like, I want them there, I 2:18:20.320 --> 2:18:23.080 just wish they didn't weren't there all the time. Yeah, 2:18:23.160 --> 2:18:25.240 I pick up when they're done. I don't know. So 2:18:25.280 --> 2:18:28.520 it's like, yeah, like I love it, It's fantastic, would 2:18:28.520 --> 2:18:30.840 be a worst country without it. But in this case, 2:18:30.879 --> 2:18:32.600 it's gotten a little silly, and it's just in my 2:18:32.640 --> 2:18:34.760 personal opinion, I don't I'm not trying to put words 2:18:34.760 --> 2:18:37.080 in your mouth. Well yeah, and I mean I agree 2:18:37.120 --> 2:18:39.480 with you and that I think the Endangered Species Act 2:18:40.360 --> 2:18:42.960 is there for the species who really need it, and 2:18:43.160 --> 2:18:45.400 I'd like to be putting more time and effort into 2:18:45.440 --> 2:18:47.840 those species that really need it. And I think grizzly 2:18:47.959 --> 2:18:52.360 bears are so far in the continuum of being recovered 2:18:52.520 --> 2:18:54.760 that I would like to spend the time and money 2:18:54.760 --> 2:18:59.879 on another species, knowing just like wolves, it's not that 2:19:00.120 --> 2:19:04.520 switch We're never done with managing grizzly bears and ensuring 2:19:04.560 --> 2:19:08.320 their long term recovery and managing them for the people 2:19:09.040 --> 2:19:15.240 who live with them. Um, so I think they're biologically recovered, 2:19:15.920 --> 2:19:19.480 and yes, we're in the business of of managing them 2:19:19.520 --> 2:19:23.520 for a long time to come. Okay, what else is 2:19:23.520 --> 2:19:25.080 there any that you're like? Man, which this guy would 2:19:25.160 --> 2:19:30.480 ask me about. No, you said I didn't ask you 2:19:30.480 --> 2:19:31.800 about you. You don't want to be asked about your 2:19:31.840 --> 2:19:36.200 personal life. Well, it's boring. Where were you born? I 2:19:36.280 --> 2:19:40.320 was born on a farm in Maryland. And um, you 2:19:40.360 --> 2:19:44.000 went to law school obviously in Missoula. Have you always 2:19:44.040 --> 2:19:48.480 been law? Public? Land? Law's where I went there? Yeah, 2:19:48.640 --> 2:19:51.640 so if you always worked in the public sector, ye, 2:19:51.920 --> 2:19:55.680 you never like an ambulance chaser, I probably should have been. 2:19:55.920 --> 2:20:00.120 My kids would like it maybe better. But no, oh, 2:20:00.200 --> 2:20:02.680 I mean, like a word, you have always worked around 2:20:02.760 --> 2:20:07.000 land and wildlife issues. We got the land and being 2:20:07.080 --> 2:20:10.560 outside is just in my blood and it just was 2:20:10.680 --> 2:20:13.040 my way of giving back kind of farmed your grandpa, 2:20:13.520 --> 2:20:22.880 um subsistence my you know, we had steers, pigs, milk, cow, chickens, um, wheat, corn, hay, 2:20:23.879 --> 2:20:26.879 big big garden, my parents are in their late eighties 2:20:26.959 --> 2:20:31.280 and are still running the farm. And they taught me 2:20:32.040 --> 2:20:35.320 like we always knew when the swallows came in and left, 2:20:35.600 --> 2:20:38.440 and would see the different times. You know how that's 2:20:38.520 --> 2:20:40.880 changed every time. My mom taught me all of the 2:20:41.000 --> 2:20:44.000 plants in the woods. We would sleep out in the 2:20:44.840 --> 2:20:47.520 rows of straw in the summer nights, just out in 2:20:47.560 --> 2:20:50.120 the middle of the I remember getting lost in a 2:20:50.360 --> 2:20:54.000 corn field once because I was teeny and the corn was, 2:20:54.360 --> 2:20:57.400 you know, way above my head, and my parents didn't 2:20:57.440 --> 2:20:59.240 know where we were. We were just running around in 2:20:59.280 --> 2:21:02.800 the corn field. Yeah, children of the corn man. When 2:21:02.840 --> 2:21:07.760 you're a little kids scary out of cornfield. They should 2:21:07.800 --> 2:21:10.000 have been worried. So what year did you move to 2:21:10.200 --> 2:21:13.920 where Montana? I went to move to Missoula to go 2:21:14.000 --> 2:21:17.280 to law school in ninety one, I think. And I 2:21:17.360 --> 2:21:20.680 spent my high school in college summers in Wyoming working 2:21:20.760 --> 2:21:24.199 on a ranch. It made me I always loved the land, 2:21:24.320 --> 2:21:27.320 but it was psyched to get away from the East 2:21:27.400 --> 2:21:30.240 Coast and just fell in love with public lands. And 2:21:30.280 --> 2:21:33.000 you got some you got some kids mostly raised up. Yeah, 2:21:33.040 --> 2:21:35.080 and they're probably at this point whatever they're going to 2:21:35.160 --> 2:21:38.119 be there, there's nothing gonna do about it now, Isn't 2:21:38.160 --> 2:21:43.359 that scared? But they're turning into really nice people, congratulations, 2:21:43.959 --> 2:21:48.119 I think. And they loved the outdoors. That's a good way. 2:21:48.240 --> 2:21:52.039 Like when you're all done parenting, you're never done. You've 2:21:52.040 --> 2:21:53.400 never done. I mean, like a good thing would be 2:21:53.440 --> 2:21:55.560 like in the end, be like, how'd it go right 2:21:55.920 --> 2:21:57.760 to be? Like, you know, they're pretty nice people, yeah, 2:21:58.120 --> 2:22:01.840 because there are a lot of things that should be 2:22:01.879 --> 2:22:05.120 the measure right right, So they're pretty nice. Let me 2:22:05.160 --> 2:22:07.720 tell you this one thing. I we they grew up 2:22:07.800 --> 2:22:12.680 on adventure points. Have you ever heard of adventure points? So, um, 2:22:13.280 --> 2:22:15.640 we had a board where if they added up their 2:22:15.640 --> 2:22:18.080 adventure points, we could get a certain trip. So like 2:22:18.360 --> 2:22:22.800 once when we were in a Yellowstone a really cold night, 2:22:23.800 --> 2:22:25.920 I mean I think it was like minus thirty degrees 2:22:26.040 --> 2:22:28.600 and us like if you it was in years, we 2:22:28.680 --> 2:22:32.160 went out cross country skiing to Ring in New Year's 2:22:32.280 --> 2:22:35.840 and they're like, mom, it's freaking cold out. I'm like, 2:22:36.040 --> 2:22:39.840 you get twenty adventure points if we go out skiing 2:22:39.920 --> 2:22:45.280 to Ring in the New Year. I'm adopting the best 2:22:45.360 --> 2:22:47.160 And the only way they could trade them in was 2:22:47.280 --> 2:22:51.120 for the next adventure, So that's all right, not for 2:22:51.480 --> 2:22:57.800 chocolate bars, because that's what my girls for, you know, Yeah, 2:22:57.920 --> 2:23:00.640 whatever you want. Think about being like daddy of like 2:23:00.720 --> 2:23:04.400 being a nice person. By My beloved sister in law 2:23:04.560 --> 2:23:07.480 was recently in a she's in a vehicle accident. She's 2:23:07.520 --> 2:23:10.640 everybody's fine, she's fine, but someone else's at fault. You know, 2:23:10.760 --> 2:23:14.120 they like crashed into her car and it turns out 2:23:14.120 --> 2:23:16.640 they don't have insurance. So I'm on the phone there 2:23:17.200 --> 2:23:19.960 and UM, I'm like, why, you know, I guess you're 2:23:19.959 --> 2:23:21.640 gonna have to go after this guy. What are you 2:23:21.640 --> 2:23:24.480 gonna do to go after him? And she's like, you know, 2:23:24.760 --> 2:23:27.960 he seems to have a lot of um problems right now, 2:23:28.440 --> 2:23:30.480 so that's not something I'm gonna do. And she goes, 2:23:30.520 --> 2:23:33.400 in fact, I'm I gotta go because I'm supposed to 2:23:33.400 --> 2:23:37.000 give him a call and see how he's doing. Kind 2:23:37.040 --> 2:23:40.600 of melted my heart, right, you know, like, pretty nice person. 2:23:41.120 --> 2:23:44.960 It's okay to be a nice person, isn't it not? 2:23:45.400 --> 2:23:47.080 Just wake up every day and be like I'm gonna 2:23:47.120 --> 2:23:52.000 make someone pay out? Maybe are we all like that? 2:23:52.160 --> 2:23:56.800 Because we um like to be outside so much. I 2:23:56.959 --> 2:23:58.760 like to think that people would like to be outside, 2:23:58.879 --> 2:24:01.440 But man, I don't know Claude Dallas was outside all 2:24:01.440 --> 2:24:08.880 the time. We talked about him the other day. Anomaly. Yeah, 2:24:08.959 --> 2:24:10.920 I do. I have a lot vested. I have a 2:24:11.000 --> 2:24:17.040 lot um in child raising. Um, I've thrown down pretty hard. 2:24:18.560 --> 2:24:21.360 Like my whole thesis is sort of based around the 2:24:21.520 --> 2:24:27.520 idea that outdoor experiences UM and all that goes with them, 2:24:27.959 --> 2:24:32.959 the people, everything that that that's a path toward parenting success. 2:24:33.600 --> 2:24:35.120 I hope I'm not wrong. So if I'm wrong, I 2:24:35.240 --> 2:24:39.720 will be real wrong. I've really like pounded it into 2:24:39.760 --> 2:24:43.640 him that that's important. So if I if that's screwed up, 2:24:43.720 --> 2:24:47.440 then I'm just gonna have to rely on luck after that. Right, 2:24:47.560 --> 2:24:50.080 let's visit in twenty years. I hope we're all on 2:24:50.280 --> 2:24:53.920 some sort of similar path, right, Greg, Yeah, I hope 2:24:53.959 --> 2:24:59.600 my kids are all nice? Yeah, nice and happy? What 2:24:59.680 --> 2:25:03.400 else you up? Yeah? I'm just thinking. I gotta wife's 2:25:03.400 --> 2:25:05.160 out of town to night, so I gotta cook dinner 2:25:05.280 --> 2:25:10.039 for him by myself and wrangle them into bed. They're 2:25:10.120 --> 2:25:17.560 nice to me tonight, Oh you got uh? So I 2:25:17.640 --> 2:25:20.119 owe you like a night of babysitting. You haven't redeemed? 2:25:20.640 --> 2:25:25.320 Oh yeah, we'll get to that UM real quick. I 2:25:25.440 --> 2:25:27.440 know that in the last couple of three years, I 2:25:27.520 --> 2:25:29.560 think we've been as Montana has been selling out a 2:25:29.640 --> 2:25:35.160 nonresident taka mule here. That number is pretty much capped 2:25:35.320 --> 2:25:39.360 right for how many and until the Commission decides to 2:25:39.440 --> 2:25:47.000 change its statue. It was a ballot initiative that kept 2:25:47.080 --> 2:25:50.920 it UM and I can't remember what year that was, 2:25:52.040 --> 2:25:54.320 So that'll stay at whatever what it's like, eleven thousand 2:25:54.440 --> 2:25:57.280 or something like that. There's a couple of numbers and uh, 2:25:57.760 --> 2:26:02.520 it's seventeen thousand for deer outcome UM, so that the 2:26:02.640 --> 2:26:05.520 non residentari combos are kept at seventeen thou and we 2:26:06.160 --> 2:26:08.640 we had a time where we weren't selling out because 2:26:09.280 --> 2:26:12.160 when they capped it, then that initiative raised there was 2:26:12.200 --> 2:26:14.640 a year of sticker shot, a couple of years of 2:26:14.680 --> 2:26:18.240 sticker shot, and so now but we've been selling out 2:26:19.080 --> 2:26:21.760 the last three years. Yeah, and now we're selling them 2:26:21.800 --> 2:26:26.200 out sooner and sooner year. But until another ballot initiative 2:26:26.240 --> 2:26:29.920 calms that number will stay or legislative, I mean it 2:26:30.000 --> 2:26:34.120 can the legislature could change that without a ballot initiative, 2:26:34.800 --> 2:26:36.600 with or without I hope they can make it that 2:26:36.640 --> 2:26:40.000 it can't be changed, it can only be lowered constitutional. 2:26:40.720 --> 2:26:45.720 But my question is what are resident tag numbers doing? 2:26:46.800 --> 2:26:51.160 So the resident tags have been pretty steady. We we're 2:26:51.480 --> 2:26:55.119 so unlike some states where the resident tags are going 2:26:55.200 --> 2:27:00.879 down or the fewer people participating in Montana, we've had 2:27:00.959 --> 2:27:05.280 steady participation. And we're also seeing, or we think, is 2:27:05.360 --> 2:27:11.320 that more of our license buyers are buying more types 2:27:11.440 --> 2:27:17.440 of licenses. So, um, that's a good I think that's 2:27:17.480 --> 2:27:19.000 a good song. So all you ever hear about is 2:27:19.080 --> 2:27:22.880 declining hunting participation not here yet, but we can't rest 2:27:22.959 --> 2:27:26.160 on our laurel, so I don't think. But we hear 2:27:26.200 --> 2:27:28.160 a lot about that. But I feel like we also 2:27:28.240 --> 2:27:31.120 hear about like the balls is like, yeah, that's what 2:27:31.240 --> 2:27:34.280 they say, this are three stuff. But when was the 2:27:34.360 --> 2:27:35.840 last time you went into the woods and felt like 2:27:35.920 --> 2:27:38.440 we needed more hunters? People? The people that hunt are 2:27:38.480 --> 2:27:40.400 more die hard and are more likely to travel on 2:27:40.680 --> 2:27:43.840 multiple states. Man, that's our theory. I gets backed up 2:27:43.879 --> 2:27:46.560 by some data. Well I don't know what our how 2:27:46.600 --> 2:27:49.560 our data would speak to that, but I think you know, 2:27:49.720 --> 2:27:52.520 we we've got Whenever we talk about our three you 2:27:52.600 --> 2:27:55.400 have people that say just that, Like I don't know. 2:27:55.640 --> 2:27:58.560 I went out to my block management area and there's 2:27:58.680 --> 2:28:01.720 you know, twelve trucks. The Yeah, I used to be 2:28:01.800 --> 2:28:04.240 pro R three but I'm reconsidering. But I was just 2:28:04.360 --> 2:28:07.440 in Wisconsin over the weekend and it's and it was 2:28:07.480 --> 2:28:09.560 the same when I was there two years ago for 2:28:09.680 --> 2:28:12.440 opening week a rifle Compared to when I was a kid, 2:28:12.640 --> 2:28:15.520 and even you know, maybe into my early twenties, it 2:28:15.640 --> 2:28:19.040 was it's a marked difference on Saturday morning, the amount 2:28:19.080 --> 2:28:22.120 of shooting that you hear a lot more, no, a 2:28:22.200 --> 2:28:26.080 lot less where in Wisconsin and we go and visit 2:28:26.120 --> 2:28:28.680 with all the neighbors usually at some point either before 2:28:28.680 --> 2:28:32.160 a season or you know, over the weekend, and there's 2:28:32.240 --> 2:28:36.280 just it's the same thing. It's like the elders aren't 2:28:36.440 --> 2:28:39.039 like they're getting old and so there's not really making 2:28:39.040 --> 2:28:40.560 it into the woods. And then you go to that 2:28:40.680 --> 2:28:45.160 camp and there aren't the um younger cousins or nephews 2:28:45.360 --> 2:28:47.720 or grandkids. And even in the camp that I was 2:28:47.800 --> 2:28:50.120 in this weekend, I mean I was the youngest there 2:28:50.240 --> 2:28:58.080 by thirty years. Okay, maybe I'm a lot close to it, 2:28:58.240 --> 2:29:01.840 close to thirty. Yeah, Well, I think the one of 2:29:01.879 --> 2:29:03.920 the things I say about our three is that it's 2:29:03.959 --> 2:29:07.440 not it's not just the numbers, like the percentage. Even 2:29:07.480 --> 2:29:12.240 in Montana, the percentage of population that's participating is the last. 2:29:12.440 --> 2:29:15.520 So our numbers are stable from a license sales standpoint, 2:29:15.800 --> 2:29:18.000 or you know, they sort of way like this, but 2:29:18.120 --> 2:29:20.760 speaks to a demographic shift. Yeah, Like I and I 2:29:20.920 --> 2:29:23.959 used this analogy that you're more apt to to marry 2:29:24.040 --> 2:29:27.040 a non hunter in two thousand nineteen than you were 2:29:27.080 --> 2:29:29.960 in two thousand and eighteen. And that's not maybe a 2:29:30.000 --> 2:29:32.520 big deal because maybe you marry somebody that's supportive of 2:29:32.640 --> 2:29:37.000 hunting but isn't a hunter, but that's still that adds 2:29:37.480 --> 2:29:40.320 that that little bit of hurdle some money that that 2:29:40.600 --> 2:29:43.280 wasn't I didn't grow up around guns, maybe you know, 2:29:43.440 --> 2:29:46.560 and that just doesn't really understand him. Then the kids 2:29:46.640 --> 2:29:50.320 grow up and you have this sort of this sort 2:29:50.360 --> 2:29:52.080 of plan that you have to put into place on 2:29:52.160 --> 2:29:54.040 how you're gonna get the kids out hunting and that 2:29:54.160 --> 2:29:56.600 sort of thing. When when we were kids, there wasn't 2:29:56.879 --> 2:29:58.800 I didn't have any that wasn't even part of the plan. 2:29:58.920 --> 2:30:01.800 I just I just gotta bb gun and said get 2:30:01.840 --> 2:30:05.360 out of the house, you know, And people aren't gonna like, 2:30:05.480 --> 2:30:07.200 my brother kind of talked me out of being here. 2:30:07.240 --> 2:30:10.200 He's in the process of talking me out of being um, 2:30:10.959 --> 2:30:13.240 talking to me out of being pro R three, which 2:30:13.440 --> 2:30:18.560 was it Retention, recruitment and reactivation pro more hunters. Uh, 2:30:18.959 --> 2:30:21.280 he's he's he is in the process of talking to me. 2:30:21.360 --> 2:30:24.360 Ought to be in that way, and um, we're never 2:30:24.440 --> 2:30:29.879 gonna like hunters aren't gonna wreak the rewards of fewer 2:30:30.000 --> 2:30:35.320 hunters because people just gonna like now like, well no, 2:30:35.440 --> 2:30:38.000 but I'm saying, yeah, that's what I argue. But the 2:30:38.080 --> 2:30:40.119 thing is, you're never gonna be like that because you're 2:30:40.160 --> 2:30:41.879 never gonna be like, oh, it's a lot. The woods 2:30:41.920 --> 2:30:43.840 are better now because people just lease it all up. 2:30:44.200 --> 2:30:45.800 Like people used to not lease stuff and now people 2:30:45.840 --> 2:30:50.279 just lease properties. So the day that like, from his perspective, 2:30:50.280 --> 2:30:52.720 he'd be like the day someone comes to me and says, 2:30:53.920 --> 2:30:58.560 I have a big, beautiful ranch and by god, I'm 2:30:58.640 --> 2:31:00.560 just trying to get someone to come out and hunted 2:31:00.640 --> 2:31:02.800 full of deer and out, but I can't find anyone 2:31:02.879 --> 2:31:06.560 to hunt. He's like, on that day, I'll become like 2:31:06.640 --> 2:31:10.400 a pro recruitment dude. But that day hasn't happened, and 2:31:10.480 --> 2:31:13.840 it's there are you know, just like fewer places to go, 2:31:14.160 --> 2:31:16.360 and when you go, there's more people in them. And 2:31:16.440 --> 2:31:18.240 so it's really hard to get people on board with 2:31:18.320 --> 2:31:20.760 the idea that you that that that we need a 2:31:20.840 --> 2:31:24.119 bunch more people. You know, you got like there's people 2:31:24.160 --> 2:31:26.920 I know that LEASA properties they leased up the hunting 2:31:27.000 --> 2:31:29.560 rights on property. They don't even hunt them. They just 2:31:29.680 --> 2:31:32.520 want to know that no one's hunting them, just like 2:31:32.920 --> 2:31:34.840 like actual you know, they want to know that if 2:31:34.920 --> 2:31:36.280 they wanted to go, there to be no one there. 2:31:36.320 --> 2:31:39.119 And last year I don't even go. It's just it's 2:31:39.160 --> 2:31:42.440 hard to get Uh, it's hard to get excited about. 2:31:42.640 --> 2:31:44.080 It's hard for people to get a lot of people. 2:31:44.120 --> 2:31:45.520 It's hard to get excited about a bunch of more 2:31:45.600 --> 2:31:48.600 hunters on the woods. Well, and I don't think we're talking, 2:31:49.200 --> 2:31:51.960 uh we're not. The goal isn't to have a bunch 2:31:52.040 --> 2:31:53.960 more hunters. I think it's the R three is just 2:31:54.080 --> 2:31:58.200 part of it. And access. Access is another key part 2:31:58.280 --> 2:31:59.800 as a key part ARE three, but it's also a 2:32:00.200 --> 2:32:02.600 part of just what we do, you know, and trying 2:32:02.640 --> 2:32:06.959 to get people people and landowners, you know, the shifting 2:32:07.240 --> 2:32:10.720 shifting landowners, like you're talking about, you know where where 2:32:10.959 --> 2:32:15.360 the communities, people in small communities, they used to know 2:32:15.480 --> 2:32:18.400 who would call to go get on Johnson's Place or 2:32:18.480 --> 2:32:22.280 the k bar L ranch or whatever, and today they 2:32:22.360 --> 2:32:24.520 might not. I mean, there just might be a landowner 2:32:24.600 --> 2:32:26.640 that is just not not as much a part of 2:32:26.680 --> 2:32:30.400 the community as they used to be. But so so 2:32:30.560 --> 2:32:34.000 it's all it's all sort of um, part of the 2:32:34.080 --> 2:32:37.200 fabric of of sort of what we have to face 2:32:37.480 --> 2:32:41.080 with the department, and I think primarily what where in 2:32:41.200 --> 2:32:44.840 Martha's talked about this a lot internally too, but is 2:32:45.000 --> 2:32:48.240 looking to sort of figure out how to have those 2:32:48.320 --> 2:32:51.960 meaningful experiences outdoors because it's not it's not just that 2:32:52.160 --> 2:32:54.039 you can only do that by hunting, or you can 2:32:54.120 --> 2:32:59.080 only do that by fishing. Trap you can or by trapping, right, 2:32:59.520 --> 2:33:02.840 but we but we talk about it. I mean, we 2:33:02.959 --> 2:33:06.360 can think about like these meaningful episodes that we've had 2:33:06.440 --> 2:33:10.040 outdoors that have shaped who we are. And there's like 2:33:10.720 --> 2:33:15.120 there's one after another after another after another, UM and 2:33:15.280 --> 2:33:17.800 some people don't and even in Montana, some people don't 2:33:17.840 --> 2:33:20.039 get that. I mean, we you know, on the at 2:33:20.120 --> 2:33:23.080 the from our education program and we've got um like 2:33:23.200 --> 2:33:27.760 our aquatic gad uh. We're in fifth grades around the 2:33:27.840 --> 2:33:30.920 state doing you know, education about fisheries and things like that. 2:33:31.600 --> 2:33:34.800 You'd be amazed at the number of kids that look 2:33:34.840 --> 2:33:36.400 at a fish and they don't they don't know that's 2:33:36.400 --> 2:33:41.400 a perch. I mean that usually, Yeah, I mean in Montana, 2:33:41.840 --> 2:33:46.240 they just it's it's even here we're becoming more urbanized 2:33:46.280 --> 2:33:48.520 where you know, in the state where you think like, 2:33:48.720 --> 2:33:52.000 my gosh, this is Montana. Couldn couldn't possibly be true here, 2:33:52.080 --> 2:33:54.720 but it is true. And so I think beyond they 2:33:54.720 --> 2:33:56.920 are three discussion of how do we sell more licenses? 2:33:57.000 --> 2:34:01.560 That's it's really not our focus when we have that conversation, 2:34:01.680 --> 2:34:04.000 are is how do we get how do we sort 2:34:04.040 --> 2:34:07.959 of build up the next generation at conservationists. They're concerned about, 2:34:08.840 --> 2:34:12.320 you know, all the things that go into loving the outdoors. Yeah, 2:34:12.360 --> 2:34:14.760 that's the That's the when I talk about this debate 2:34:14.920 --> 2:34:17.800 I have with my brother, that's the one I do. Yeah, 2:34:17.840 --> 2:34:19.520 I'll do that side of it. I don't know, you 2:34:19.560 --> 2:34:21.840 know what me and Yanni are. We're running for president. 2:34:22.120 --> 2:34:24.920 I heard that because I had suggested that Yanni running 2:34:24.959 --> 2:34:27.600 for mayorbles but he said he's got another gig because 2:34:27.600 --> 2:34:30.520 we're all tied up with being president. Um. But all 2:34:30.600 --> 2:34:33.760 the money when people buy our Runella tell Us Better 2:34:33.840 --> 2:34:37.000 Hunting and Fishing for America shirts, all of our money, 2:34:37.040 --> 2:34:39.560 we're putting it into our access piggy bank. We're gonna 2:34:39.640 --> 2:34:45.120 use it for an access project. Stickers yard signs. We 2:34:45.200 --> 2:34:48.760 don't know what cal our Boddy. Cal's uneasy with the 2:34:48.840 --> 2:34:51.800 lack of specificity we've had so far, but trust me, no, no, 2:34:51.879 --> 2:34:54.400 I'm serious. It's like a thing. We're like banking the money. 2:34:54.400 --> 2:34:57.480 We're having access piggy bank, and we're right now currently 2:34:57.520 --> 2:35:00.440 looking at different kinds of access projects or group we 2:35:00.520 --> 2:35:04.240 would help with an access a land acquisition that would 2:35:04.280 --> 2:35:08.400 open up land locked public lands. We'll figure it out. Yeah, 2:35:08.640 --> 2:35:12.600 you have one in mind. No, but it's funny. We 2:35:12.640 --> 2:35:15.480 should talk sometime. No, we don't. I want to do 2:35:15.560 --> 2:35:18.120 a combo that we're gonna take our piggy bank and 2:35:18.160 --> 2:35:20.400 then I want to run a go fund me project 2:35:20.480 --> 2:35:23.000 and look at some specific acquisitions and to see if 2:35:23.000 --> 2:35:24.480 people would think it would be fun to throw in 2:35:24.600 --> 2:35:26.320 five bucks and buy a chunk land and have it 2:35:26.400 --> 2:35:29.960 be for public access. Then we'll go recruit a hunter 2:35:30.040 --> 2:35:33.360 or two to go on there and on. Um, yeah, 2:35:33.520 --> 2:35:38.160 so there's that our our nome packing out a unicorn 2:35:39.320 --> 2:35:42.800 T shirt. There's now joining with a gnome who's reeling 2:35:42.840 --> 2:35:47.200 in a mermaid doing battle the mermaid is the title 2:35:47.280 --> 2:35:51.959 actually nome tussling tussling with a mermaid. People who want 2:35:52.000 --> 2:35:53.400 to know what happened, But I don't know. It could 2:35:53.400 --> 2:35:56.040 be incidental bycatch, it could be a courtship ritual. I 2:35:56.080 --> 2:35:58.320 don't know. It's just a gnome and he happens to 2:35:58.400 --> 2:36:01.400 have a mermaid on. I'm not saying what's gonna happen. 2:36:01.520 --> 2:36:03.640 I don't know what they got going on. She might 2:36:03.720 --> 2:36:06.280 be messing with him. My brother thinks that she's pulling 2:36:06.360 --> 2:36:09.240 him in to kill him. Um, hey, wait a minute, 2:36:09.440 --> 2:36:12.200 you're assuming the mermaid says she and the gnomes that 2:36:12.360 --> 2:36:15.000 he it's very female mermaid and a very male No, 2:36:15.520 --> 2:36:20.840 it's a bearded gnome Like yeah, I wouldn't go it's 2:36:20.840 --> 2:36:23.039 not like an erotic mermaid. But it's a female form. 2:36:23.120 --> 2:36:28.240 It's a female mermaid. Could use a term voluptuous. It's 2:36:28.240 --> 2:36:32.200 a female form. And then uh, we have our nome. Uh, 2:36:32.320 --> 2:36:34.520 we have our T shirt out coming out with our nome. 2:36:34.680 --> 2:36:36.920 That's in Uh, you know those old pictures of our 2:36:37.000 --> 2:36:38.800 mountain man's got his knife and he's in a fight 2:36:38.879 --> 2:36:41.480 with a grizzly. It's our Nomes in a in a 2:36:41.840 --> 2:36:45.959 knife fight with a bigfoot. The big foot's got him good, 2:36:46.000 --> 2:36:48.560 but he's also got his bowie knife out. And I 2:36:48.640 --> 2:36:50.960 gotta said, We've getting a lot of ideas for Gnome shirts. 2:36:51.000 --> 2:36:52.800 I think we're gonna start working on. Next is a 2:36:52.800 --> 2:36:54.800 Gnome in a blind and it's a big flock of 2:36:54.920 --> 2:36:59.240 dragons coming in all cupped out, all cupped out, coming 2:36:59.280 --> 2:37:02.120 into the deco is gonna be sweet, man. So you 2:37:02.160 --> 2:37:05.640 can find all. You can also find our Nome packing out. 2:37:05.680 --> 2:37:10.200 A unicorn shirt is back in full color. Yeah, no, 2:37:10.280 --> 2:37:13.080 I'm packing out a unicorn full color. Find it all 2:37:13.160 --> 2:37:14.760 the whole g Nome line up and then no one. 2:37:14.879 --> 2:37:16.240 I think this is going to turn into like a 2:37:16.280 --> 2:37:21.920 big expansion of game themed products. Man. Uh you guys good, 2:37:22.320 --> 2:37:25.200 We're good. Thanks for sitting to our little plug there. 2:37:25.560 --> 2:37:27.440 It was a natural plug because it started out talking 2:37:27.440 --> 2:37:31.120 about our access fund. Ronella Propels. Don't tell everybody. I 2:37:31.160 --> 2:37:32.680 know you're gonna write us in when you vote, But 2:37:32.680 --> 2:37:34.000 don't tell people because I know you don't want to 2:37:34.040 --> 2:37:37.680 get partisan. Yeah, that's right. I don't know. I don't 2:37:37.720 --> 2:37:45.840 even vote. No, I'm just um, Martha, thank you very 2:37:45.920 --> 2:37:48.080 much for coming on. Thank you. If there's ever something 2:37:48.200 --> 2:37:49.640 that comes up and you really need to come and 2:37:49.720 --> 2:37:51.320 talk to someone about, you should come talk to us 2:37:51.320 --> 2:37:53.800 about it. All right, all right. I love how you 2:37:53.920 --> 2:37:57.200 dive into the issues. We need to do this more. Yeah, 2:37:58.120 --> 2:38:05.440 I enjoy it, and I say too. I'll say that 2:38:05.560 --> 2:38:08.040 too if you guys come up to come up with stuff, 2:38:08.040 --> 2:38:12.000 because I I we listen and I hear these, you know, conversations, 2:38:12.040 --> 2:38:15.560 and I think one of them was, yeah, I canna 2:38:15.560 --> 2:38:17.080 say something we did that was wrong? No, no, no, 2:38:17.240 --> 2:38:19.680 it was the debate like Kenya, can you use the 2:38:19.720 --> 2:38:22.640 stream access lot for big game hunting? You know that 2:38:22.800 --> 2:38:25.080 those sorts of things where you know we're I was listening. 2:38:25.080 --> 2:38:26.720 I was like, I don't know. I mean, I got 2:38:26.800 --> 2:38:29.320 a bird dogged it all down, but it was hard. 2:38:29.600 --> 2:38:31.840 It's interest. Can I hit you with one? It came 2:38:31.920 --> 2:38:34.240 up the other day. If it's licensing, I'm not gonna know. No. No, 2:38:34.560 --> 2:38:37.119 check this out. Me and my kid on Saturday, we're 2:38:37.160 --> 2:38:40.800 out in our in our jet boat, messing around trying 2:38:40.800 --> 2:38:42.960 to get it dialed in. And we pull up on 2:38:43.040 --> 2:38:47.840 this island and I find find a nice bot. The 2:38:47.920 --> 2:38:50.240 backside of him been eating out by Kyles. He's just 2:38:50.280 --> 2:38:53.440 floating in the river, not like a not like a skull, 2:38:54.520 --> 2:38:59.280 like full on fresh dead, but cloudy eye has clearly 2:38:59.320 --> 2:39:02.960 been landing the river long time. He was piste that 2:39:03.040 --> 2:39:05.080 I didn't ask the head off it and let him 2:39:05.120 --> 2:39:07.960 bring it home. But I was like, I don't know 2:39:08.080 --> 2:39:10.520 if this counts as like a skull, Like I don't 2:39:10.520 --> 2:39:12.200 know if this is like a dead head. And it's 2:39:12.280 --> 2:39:14.280 hunting season, and I feel like we'd have a lot 2:39:14.320 --> 2:39:18.199 of explaining to do to have a furred, severed head 2:39:18.920 --> 2:39:21.320 of Ben dead for a few days but not terribly 2:39:21.440 --> 2:39:25.680 long buck in our boat. So I made him leave it, 2:39:27.560 --> 2:39:29.200 and he's like, well, just look it up. And I'm like, 2:39:29.480 --> 2:39:30.960 there's some things that are easy to look up, and 2:39:31.000 --> 2:39:34.120 there's some things that are tricky too. Do you have 2:39:34.120 --> 2:39:36.760 any feedback on that? What I would I would suggest 2:39:36.959 --> 2:39:40.119 is if you wanted the antlers or wanted the head, 2:39:40.720 --> 2:39:42.360 is to call the game ward and tell him what 2:39:42.480 --> 2:39:45.560 you found. That's what I was telling Ti Tipmott. Tell 2:39:45.600 --> 2:39:47.920 him what you found. And then when the game war 2:39:48.000 --> 2:39:49.920 in college, you say, you know, hey, this is what 2:39:50.000 --> 2:39:52.200 I found. This where it is, and you know, when 2:39:52.240 --> 2:39:55.640 you're done looking into it cannot is it okay? If 2:39:55.640 --> 2:39:58.920 I get the antlers, I think, you know, they sort 2:39:58.959 --> 2:40:00.720 all that out. You know what I did do? I 2:40:00.720 --> 2:40:03.880 don't know, Maybe it's illegal. I drug it out of 2:40:04.000 --> 2:40:05.720 the water and pulled it up on a little island 2:40:05.760 --> 2:40:09.600 gravel bar so it didn't float away. Well, we were 2:40:09.640 --> 2:40:11.400 just having to debate, and it was better to have 2:40:11.560 --> 2:40:14.080 the debate with it laying there than have it floating by. Yeah, 2:40:14.440 --> 2:40:16.360 well you could you could still do you can still 2:40:16.400 --> 2:40:19.280 do it. We you could. You could let the game war, No, 2:40:19.480 --> 2:40:21.720 and he go. Next time you're on the gravel bar, 2:40:21.840 --> 2:40:24.280 you can you know, ask him if it be okay, 2:40:24.360 --> 2:40:26.280 just to grab him because at some point I don't 2:40:26.280 --> 2:40:29.680 know that what. I don't think there's anything specific in No, 2:40:30.040 --> 2:40:31.560 just be like a matter of like what kind of 2:40:31.640 --> 2:40:34.320 conversations do you want to invite? Like why is there 2:40:34.360 --> 2:40:36.240 a dead buck's head in your truck? Like wow, what 2:40:36.360 --> 2:40:39.360 happened was right? I just didn't feel like right, I 2:40:39.560 --> 2:40:42.600 feel like needing to have that chat. I found I 2:40:42.680 --> 2:40:44.880 found a buck on a gravel bar one time with 2:40:45.000 --> 2:40:48.760 its horns dead horns cut off call the game war 2:40:48.840 --> 2:40:51.320 and told him where it was. But I call him 2:40:51.400 --> 2:40:53.160 right from where I where I was standing. And then 2:40:53.160 --> 2:40:56.480 I kept hunting, and I hunted up to another gravel bar, 2:40:56.879 --> 2:41:00.640 and on that gravel bar, I found a saw all 2:41:00.760 --> 2:41:04.240 chewed up, you know, and it was open still had 2:41:04.320 --> 2:41:06.280 like you know, bone stuff and flesh on it. And 2:41:06.360 --> 2:41:07.879 I didn't even think about it's picked up and put 2:41:07.879 --> 2:41:10.720 in my pocket and kept going because but the handles 2:41:10.760 --> 2:41:12.480 all chewed up on it. And I realized when I 2:41:12.520 --> 2:41:15.600 got home that had to have been the saw that 2:41:15.760 --> 2:41:19.680 was used in the crime. Probably some like fox or 2:41:19.720 --> 2:41:22.080 coyote had grabbed the so on, chewed on it a 2:41:22.120 --> 2:41:23.920 little bit, and then left it on the next grab 2:41:24.040 --> 2:41:27.080 a bar up. That's great, crazy, I still use this 2:41:27.200 --> 2:41:32.680 to got it Phil, You got any questions? Uh? No. 2:41:32.920 --> 2:41:35.080 I do want to say though, that I was part 2:41:35.120 --> 2:41:37.400 of the Party coalition on the Madison this summer, and 2:41:37.520 --> 2:41:42.040 I will come to the next public uh public comment session. 2:41:42.040 --> 2:41:45.720 I'll be a lone rep. He's gonna be shirtless, he's 2:41:45.720 --> 2:41:49.080 gonna have some cut off blue jeans. He's gonna be 2:41:49.240 --> 2:41:51.920 pretty drunk. He's gonna be sunburned, and he's gonna give you, 2:41:51.959 --> 2:41:54.120 guys a year full about telling him where he can't 2:41:54.200 --> 2:42:00.880 can't ride, I can't wait? Can you bring mango? Oh? 2:42:01.280 --> 2:42:04.119 She would love it? Yes, all right, thanks guys,