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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. She thought the baby she

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Speaker 1: was dead, so she throws the baby away into the dumpster.

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Speaker 1: Right now at deen o'clock, a teenage mother is facing

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Speaker 1: charges after her newborn son is found in a dumpster

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Speaker 1: and later dies. A young mother who abandoned her infant

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Speaker 1: inside a dumpster is formally charged with attempted murder. Late

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Speaker 1: New Year's Eve night, police say a teenager placed her

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Speaker 1: newborn son in a dumpster. Employees at a grocery storem

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Speaker 1: at a shocking discovery when the body of a newborn

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Speaker 1: baby girl had to be only a couple of days old,

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Speaker 1: was found in the bathroom in the ladies bathroom, in

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Speaker 1: a trash can. She allegedly gave birth and then threw

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Speaker 1: her newborn baby away like trash. You know, it's a

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Speaker 1: story as old as time, and I will never understand it.

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Speaker 1: Those are just smidgets samplings of the hundreds of cases

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Speaker 1: I have prosecuted, investigated, or covered where helpless babies were

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Speaker 1: thrown away like trash. I don't know if you guys remember,

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Speaker 1: were two college students, you know, white bread, wealthy suburban

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Speaker 1: families not only give birth the boy and the young

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Speaker 1: lady the man and the woman. College students give birth

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Speaker 1: in an hotel room and bludgeon the baby dead. The

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Speaker 1: baby you blocky, bludgeon a baby and then throw it

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Speaker 1: into the trash dump the college killers. I mean, it's just.

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Speaker 1: But right now, I want to tell you about another story,

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Speaker 1: an unsolved story about a tiny baby girl, baby Doe.

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Speaker 1: The hunt for her killer goes on. I Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: We have a panel like no other today with me.

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Speaker 1: Major Wendell Rayburn out of the Iberia Parish Sheriff's Office.

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Speaker 1: Major Rayburn, thank you for being with us. Cheryl LaPoint,

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Speaker 1: genetic genealogist and founder of Our Roots DNA Kathleen TERRYO

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Speaker 1: comprehensive victim interventions specialist from the Louisiana sixty Judicial District

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Speaker 1: Attorney's Office. Dave Matt Crime Online dot Com investigative reporter,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation

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Speaker 1: Field Guide, Expert in forensics at Jacksonville State University, author

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Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joseph Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: and judge and trial lawyer at Ashley Wilcott dot Com,

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Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, Dave matt with all of the advancements in DNA,

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Speaker 1: if they can solve the Golden State killer, for Pete's sake,

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Speaker 1: why don't I know who Babydoe is? Nancy. This dates

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Speaker 1: back to January twenty fourth of nineteen ninety four, and

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Speaker 1: in the years since then, there's been a massive investigation

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Speaker 1: and there is some evidence. However, some of that evidence

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Speaker 1: could not be located, and so wa woa, wait, wait wait,

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Speaker 1: I mean you can't locate evidence? Okay, hold on, you know,

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Speaker 1: before I go off on a rent to Major Windel

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Speaker 1: Rayborn with the Iberia Paris this is the Iberia Parish

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Speaker 1: Sheriff's office, Major Major Rayborn, before I go crazy on

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Speaker 1: can't find evidence. I will never forget. I had been

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Speaker 1: in the DA's office in inner City Atlanta maybe four

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Speaker 1: or five years, and I had advanced to specializing in

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Speaker 1: spree and serial homicide, serial rape, serial child molestation in

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Speaker 1: Arson and I got called down to the elected DA's office,

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Speaker 1: long ast serving DA in the country at the time.

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Speaker 1: I think it was thirty seven years Lewis Layton. He went, Nancy, Yes, Sir,

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Speaker 1: I just knew I had done something wrong, Major Rapeur,

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Speaker 1: And I was just waiting. He went, I got a case,

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Speaker 1: and what would you look at? He was talking to

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Speaker 1: me from behind his newspaper, and I just assumed that

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Speaker 1: meant something about me, and not in a good way.

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Speaker 1: But I just stood there and he handed me he pointed.

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Speaker 1: He pointed to a case file on his desk. I

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Speaker 1: picked up. I went, yes, sir, Major, the case happened

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Speaker 1: before I was in law school. It had been a conviction,

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Speaker 1: went all the way up to the eleventh Circuit Court

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Speaker 1: of Appeals, and you know how they are living in

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Speaker 1: their ivory tower, kicked it back down and I got

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Speaker 1: to retry a case I knew nothing about. And not

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Speaker 1: only that, all the evidence I could find, Major was

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Speaker 1: a an X ray and a baseball cap that said

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Speaker 1: kiss my bass. Because over the years it was nobody's fault.

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Speaker 1: The evidence room had moved a couple of times to

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Speaker 1: bigger evidence rooms. Everybody thought the case was over and

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Speaker 1: done with. Who cares about the evidence, It was all gone. However,

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Speaker 1: in this case, you know, the case was never sold.

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Speaker 1: Where's the evidence, Major ray Bourne, I'm on your side,

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Speaker 1: please understand that, But where's the evidence? Oh that's a

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Speaker 1: good question. That was originally not our case. You know,

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Speaker 1: the case belonged to Generate pd in two Wait a minute, Major, Major,

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Speaker 1: You're brilliant because I love it when the first thing

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Speaker 1: I can say is well, it's not my case, all right,

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Speaker 1: this was somebody else's case that screwed this up. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now whose was it to start with? Major? It was

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Speaker 1: originally Generates case, and they handled it from beginning to end.

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Speaker 1: It was a very highly publicized case. As you can imagine,

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Speaker 1: infant left in a trash can to die at a

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Speaker 1: local car wash. Oh, you just gave me chills all

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Speaker 1: over my arms. A newborn. Hey, before I figure out

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Speaker 1: who messed it up to start with, tell me about

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Speaker 1: finding the baby. What do you know about when they

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Speaker 1: found baby Jane Doe? Well, it really tore that little community. Partner.

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Speaker 1: We're talking small country town at the time. Major income

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Speaker 1: from there was the right It was the sugar mill,

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Speaker 1: which has since gone away, but it was It was

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Speaker 1: not a big city. It's a small town. You know,

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Speaker 1: one main street, you know, the one light, you know,

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Speaker 1: the one horse type country town you can imagine. But

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Speaker 1: the local car wash owner was going to you know,

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Speaker 1: dump the trash and then a fifty five gallon drum

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Speaker 1: he found an infant that had been placed there the

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Speaker 1: night before. The chief of police at that time, he

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Speaker 1: took it. He took the case, and you know, he's

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Speaker 1: talking about a police department of three or four guys,

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Speaker 1: but he took it and decided, you know, he was

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Speaker 1: going to put everything he could into it to try

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Speaker 1: to solve that and find out who did this to

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Speaker 1: this instance. Twenty five years later, you know, it comes

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Speaker 1: to us and we're trying to regenerate the case and

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Speaker 1: put it back together, and we're going back to a

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Speaker 1: department that had only a couple of people at the

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Speaker 1: time and was in a lot of racial turmoil because

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Speaker 1: the previous chief had involved in a shooting and had

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Speaker 1: been removed from officing. You had an interim chief employee,

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Speaker 1: Dave Matt. What's it all about? You know, as I

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Speaker 1: was saying, Nancy, when they first reopened the case, this

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Speaker 1: box of evidence was missing. But now, after weeks of

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Speaker 1: searching for it, they've recovered the box of evidence and

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Speaker 1: now all of that will be tested. Well, let me

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Speaker 1: ask you a question, major, what about DNA? DNA? It

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Speaker 1: was Baby Steps in ninety four. It was just really

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Speaker 1: getting on. Major. You're giving me a memory. I remember

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Speaker 1: the first This is a funny, odd story. I remember

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Speaker 1: I must have been in the eighth grade and we

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Speaker 1: had a science book and I remember reading it class.

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Speaker 1: It was the homework assignment, and I had a little

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Speaker 1: bit of time left. I was reading my homework assignment

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Speaker 1: in class, and I was flying through it so I

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Speaker 1: could leave that book, that big science book at school,

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Speaker 1: not drag it home. And I stopped because I saw

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Speaker 1: a word, and I remember this thought, Major. I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, one day, I'm going to need to know

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Speaker 1: how to say this. And I sat there and sounded

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Speaker 1: it out and wrote it out fanetically, deoxyribononucleic acid. And

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Speaker 1: I remember the whole way home, I said in my head,

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Speaker 1: deoxyribonucleic acid, because one day I'm going to need how

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Speaker 1: to just say that, and even need to know how

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Speaker 1: to say it right off the tip of my tongue.

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Speaker 1: And lo and behold I did the first time I

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Speaker 1: had a DNA case, I had been prosecuting for years,

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Speaker 1: just like you said, that was in its infancy, and

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Speaker 1: I told the lab Joe Scott, you're gonna love this

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Speaker 1: to bring over all the evidence to show to the jury. Well,

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Speaker 1: when they wrote put it up on a poster, it

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Speaker 1: looked like poe. It looked like film from a camera

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Speaker 1: that did not come out correctly. It was just a

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Speaker 1: bunch of dots. Immediately ran up as to take that

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Speaker 1: down right now because the jury was looking at it

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Speaker 1: and thinking, you want me to believe that. I never

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Speaker 1: put that up in front of a jury again. But

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Speaker 1: it's very complicated, or it was at the time. So

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Speaker 1: let me understand major. First of all, what was the

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Speaker 1: cause of death on the baby? The baby with the

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Speaker 1: actual cause of death was she froze to death? She

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Speaker 1: just she was exposed. And we don't really get freezing

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Speaker 1: weather down here often as you can imagine the Deep South.

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Speaker 1: But that night, it was in the forties. This infant

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Speaker 1: was laying in a metal trash can and it just

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Speaker 1: literally sucked a life right out of her. You know too,

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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupree, renowned medical examiner, author of Homicide Investigation

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Speaker 1: Field Guide. So it didn't get below freezing. But doctor dupre,

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Speaker 1: how does that kill an infant? Just the elements? Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: the infant will start to dehydrate basically, and the body

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Speaker 1: will just gradually begin to shut down, and it continues

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Speaker 1: to do so until it goes beyond a repair and

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Speaker 1: they will just become unconscious and eventually pass away, you know,

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Speaker 1: to Cataline theoryote comprehensive victim intervention specialist Cataline. What breaks

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Speaker 1: my heart? The little baby, little baby Jane Doe in

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Speaker 1: that fifty five gallon drum was found dead, sucking her

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Speaker 1: thumb for comfort. Poor lord thing. I just can hardly

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Speaker 1: even say it out loud. Catalina have twins and they

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Speaker 1: were born extremely premature. Lucy was only two pounds, John

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Speaker 1: David was five pounds, and I devoted myself to making

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Speaker 1: them live, survive. They were in bad shape, Cataline, And

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about this little girl out there in

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Speaker 1: that fifty five gallon drum in the coal, sucking her

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Speaker 1: little thumb for comfort. It breaks your heart, it really does.

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Speaker 1: What do you think, Kataline, Well, and I can say

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Speaker 1: back when it happened, I was employed in Generate because

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Speaker 1: they had a through the loom mill back then, and

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Speaker 1: it was mostly all women that worked at through the Loom,

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Speaker 1: And I mean that was the talk of the community because,

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Speaker 1: as I said, Generate, it's a small community and It

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Speaker 1: brought the community together because it was like they were

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Speaker 1: the only ones they cared about this baby. No one

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Speaker 1: else did. Until today. If you talk to anyone on

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Speaker 1: the streets of Generate, they will remember that baby crime

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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace, a tiny baby girl, baby dough.

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Speaker 1: The hunt for her killer goes on Major Rayburn. Seems

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Speaker 1: to me that it was a local person that nobody

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Speaker 1: knew she was pregnant, because you're not. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how close Generette is to a big freeway, but who's

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Speaker 1: going to come into Generette. Believe me, I came from

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Speaker 1: bib County. That's not even in a city. For Pete's sake.

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Speaker 1: Our big night was to drive thirty minutes to a

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Speaker 1: dairy queen, you know, so there you go. It seems

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Speaker 1: to me this would be a woman that maybe worked

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Speaker 1: at that meal or was too young to work and

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Speaker 1: could get by without being noticeably pregnant. So who would

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Speaker 1: that be? Who would give birth at home and nobody

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Speaker 1: would know, Someone that did not want to be found out,

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Speaker 1: someone with a motive for not wanting to be known

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Speaker 1: as pregnant, and then not have the impulse to kill

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Speaker 1: the baby. That tells me it was definitely a woman

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Speaker 1: because the man would have probably asphyxiated or smothered it.

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Speaker 1: Somebody put it in that drum and leave it. What

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Speaker 1: about that, Major, Well, the theory at first was a

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Speaker 1: local girl or a local woman who was unexpected pregnancy

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Speaker 1: hiding it from the parents. I know, a lot of

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Speaker 1: tips came in, a lot of calls came in. I

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Speaker 1: was run the crime stoppers off of the time, and

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Speaker 1: we got a lot of calls who passed everything else.

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Speaker 1: But unfortunately for the chief of police back then, nothing

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Speaker 1: ever worked out for them. They just never could find

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Speaker 1: that one person. And there had to be an accomplice,

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Speaker 1: because I don't think somebody that has just delivered an

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Speaker 1: infant is going to be to drive, you know, walk

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Speaker 1: in places, if in a trash can. Uh, there's more

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Speaker 1: than one person out there. We'll hold on there a minute. Major,

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Speaker 1: There's one woman I know of that gave birth at

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Speaker 1: her prom and then went back out on the dance

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Speaker 1: floor and asked for unforgiven by Metallica to be play.

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Speaker 1: It can't happen, you know. Well, well else if anything

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Speaker 1: was found with the baby, I believe there was like

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Speaker 1: a women's under garment like a girdle. You know, obviously

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Speaker 1: she's been trying to wear it to I think they

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Speaker 1: theorize that's what you did. You used to try to

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Speaker 1: hide your pregnancy, which to me, you know, I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: it might have been a larger woman. Well, this is

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Speaker 1: news to me, Ashley Willcott spank. So I want to

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Speaker 1: hear about this. There's a girdle strong enough to hold

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Speaker 1: in a pregnancy. That would be a strong girdle. Ashley

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Speaker 1: helped me out while I was filming. I've been filming

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Speaker 1: Oxygens in Justice with Nancy Gray. It's really hard to

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Speaker 1: go slog through creek beds and up and down the

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Speaker 1: size of mountains in a pair of boots and a girdle.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you that much less hold in a pregnancy.

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Speaker 1: But I think he's probably right, you know, So first

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Speaker 1: let's hear it about girdles. I know a man had

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Speaker 1: to make those things up torture chambers. Same guy that

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Speaker 1: made up pantyhose, I guarantee you. But what about this, Ashley.

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Speaker 1: Shouldn't there be DNA on that girdle? Well, that's an

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Speaker 1: important piece of evidence, Nancy, because if they test it, yes,

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Speaker 1: there should be DNA on that girdle. I just have

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Speaker 1: to go backwards a minute and say something that always

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Speaker 1: continues to surprise me. You know, I'm on the bench

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Speaker 1: in juvenile court. I'd see a lot of cases all

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Speaker 1: the time involving children, pregnancies, new babies. What shocks me, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: is a number of young women and older women who

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Speaker 1: no one knows is pregnant, who have hidden it, nobody

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Speaker 1: realizes it, and then they have a baby, be it

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Speaker 1: in a car, or at home, or at a friend's house,

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Speaker 1: or in a bathtub. It's amazing to me that that happened.

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Speaker 1: But you know what, You're right, key question. Major Rayburn

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Speaker 1: with me. Major Wendell Rayburn from Iberia Parish in Louisiana.

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Speaker 1: Kathleen Terry Ote Victim interventions specialist Cheryl Lapointe, genetic genealogist,

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Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Dupre. Joe Scott Morgan asked you Wolcott and

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Speaker 1: Dave Mack, Jackie Howard here in the studio, Where is

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Speaker 1: the body, Major, that's the big question. Where is the body?

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Speaker 1: Please do not tell me it's been cremated. No. She

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Speaker 1: had a funeral that was put on by the community.

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Speaker 1: There was about two thousand people of hers at her funeral,

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Speaker 1: and she is buried in the local cemetery in Jenerat.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we exhume the body for Pete's sake, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Michelle Dupree. I know it's been many years, but you

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Speaker 1: can get DNA from a body, right, yes, absolutely, especially

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Speaker 1: we can get monta conto DNA that lasts for many, many,

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Speaker 1: many years. Well, Major Rayburn, what do I need to

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Speaker 1: What petition do I need to sign? What judge do

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Speaker 1: I need to suck up to to get this exhumed?

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Speaker 1: That would be in Kathleen Terrio's ballpark. Kathleen, help me out.

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Speaker 1: That is my and I am getting that done. I

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Speaker 1: have the order all drawn up, but I work in

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Speaker 1: one parish, but I'm doing a murder trial in another parish.

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Speaker 1: But the judge will sign the uder most definitely because

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Speaker 1: also typically the only one that could oppose it is

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Speaker 1: the next of ken, And since we don't have the

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Speaker 1: next of Ken, I just dealt with that. In a

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Speaker 1: murder case Oude of Manhattan, where a woman's body is

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Speaker 1: found by her little girl by the way, dead in

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Speaker 1: a bathtub. Um, all right, here comes the big gun. Sorry, Major,

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to pump him up a little bit.

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Speaker 1: We know you and Kathleen and Shia are the big guns.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, help me out. You've got the girdle.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure that fifty five gallons drun is long gone.

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Speaker 1: But Joe Scott, you are the professor of forensics. You

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Speaker 1: wrote the book Blood Beneath My Feet. You gotta have

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Speaker 1: some good ideas well. I think that the girdle obviously

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Speaker 1: is going to be tied back to Mama more than likely.

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Speaker 1: The question is how well has this girdle been preserved

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Speaker 1: over all these years a matter of fact, is it

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Speaker 1: still in existence? Like you, Nancy, I've been a lot

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Speaker 1: of evidence rooms over the course of my career, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes these evidence rooms are a complete train wreck, either

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Speaker 1: through you know, changes in administration, movement, and one of

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Speaker 1: the biggest things is from a procedural standpoint, because they

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Speaker 1: can't maintain continuity of evidence. You get too many hands

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Speaker 1: on the situation. Now, the other thing is this, when

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Speaker 1: this little angel was autopsied, what they would have generated

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Speaker 1: is called a blood card, which is where you take

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Speaker 1: a droplet of blood and you place it onto a

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Speaker 1: card that is preserved in perpetuity hopefully Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace to Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Dave

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Speaker 1: mac joining me. Dave Matt, what can you tell me

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Speaker 1: about some sort of a receipt being found in the drum? Nancy?

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Speaker 1: One of the things that came up during our investigation

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Speaker 1: was what was with the baby. Of course we've talked

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Speaker 1: about the girdle, but apparently the chief, the guy working

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Speaker 1: the case back then, Carrie Davis, said that they also

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Speaker 1: found a receipt for the girdle, and the receipt was

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Speaker 1: from a local store. Well, that could crack the whole

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Speaker 1: thing wide open. I mean, if it's a local store,

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Speaker 1: surely in a small town like that, they would have

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Speaker 1: a recollection of who bought it, or may have a

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Speaker 1: recollection that person may be long gone by now, Major Rayburn,

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Speaker 1: was the baby dressed or wrapped in a blanket? Not

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Speaker 1: the thing? I think was just h bear skin was

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Speaker 1: against the bag. I think it was partially covered with

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Speaker 1: bear skin against the barrel. I think it was partially

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Speaker 1: covered with a plastic bag. Now that sounds like a

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Speaker 1: man putting the baby in there, because I think a

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Speaker 1: woman would have probably wrapped it in a blanket. Every time,

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Speaker 1: just as this is anecdotal. This is not a statistical observation,

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Speaker 1: Ashley Willcott judge and trial lawyer. But Ashley, every single

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Speaker 1: time I have seen a female disposed of a body,

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Speaker 1: a baby's body, it has on an outfit, or it's

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Speaker 1: wrapped in a blanket or something like that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's ironic that you can kill a baby or leave

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Speaker 1: a baby to die, but you want to have it

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Speaker 1: wrapped in a blanket. Yeah, it's that maternal instinct, especially

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Speaker 1: if it's their own baby. They want to kind of

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Speaker 1: cut away, comforted in spite of the fact they then

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Speaker 1: leave it to die. That is anecdotal. So Major Rayburne

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Speaker 1: telling me the baby was not wrapped up? Is that?

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Speaker 1: Is that correct? Cataline? From what I was told and

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Speaker 1: bread that the baby was wrapped had a little bit

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Speaker 1: of old newspaper on top of the baby, like it

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Speaker 1: was trying to, you know, trying to hide the baby. Interesting. Now,

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Speaker 1: genetic genealogist founder of Our Roots DNA, Shara La point

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Speaker 1: with us, Shara, I've tried to give you all the

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Speaker 1: facts I can on a silver platter. Now what do

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Speaker 1: you make of it? Shara? What if anything can be done?

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Speaker 1: The inscription on Baby Jane Doo's tomb says only God

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Speaker 1: and her mother knew her name. It's my goal to

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Speaker 1: be able to identify who Baby Jane's parents are, to

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Speaker 1: bring closure to this poor baby and to a community

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Speaker 1: who was brought together by this unfortunate death. And the

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Speaker 1: genetic genial alogy can do this. Explain how it will work.

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Speaker 1: Because Cataline Terryote is bound and determined, she will get

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Speaker 1: a judge assign the order of exhimation, which means digging

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Speaker 1: the baby's body up. It's very very rare. You see

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Speaker 1: it all the time on TV. That's not the way

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Speaker 1: it goes down, Joseph Scott Morgan, It's very very rare

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Speaker 1: to get an exhimmation. Would you agree with that? Boy?

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Speaker 1: You're not kidding, Nancy. I've been involved in a number

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Speaker 1: working for you know, the Corner's Office down in New

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Speaker 1: Orleans and then working in Atlanta with the MME over

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Speaker 1: all the years. I've been involved in a lot of

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Speaker 1: exhimations over that period of time. But to get to

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Speaker 1: the point where you have to jump through all of

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Speaker 1: the legal ease and the legal hurdles and you know,

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Speaker 1: pass it by judges. They want justifications for it. To

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Speaker 1: disinter a body is a major undertaking. So if you

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Speaker 1: can get that done, it's almost a miracle. I've got

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Speaker 1: it done before. But who's is that, Cataline? Kataline, I

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Speaker 1: got it done before. I had a body zoom before.

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Speaker 1: I bet you have. Oh, I want to meet you

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Speaker 1: in the flesh. Okay, now, Cataline, just tell me in

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Speaker 1: a nutshell, how did you get a body zoomed before?

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Speaker 1: I just recently had to do a ton of research

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Speaker 1: on exhimation, and the reasoning behind it is there's a

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Speaker 1: real eluctance to dig up a body because once the

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Speaker 1: body is interred, that body is no longer does it

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Speaker 1: belong to the family. It belongs to the state, and

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Speaker 1: the state puts a priority, a premium on the sanctity

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Speaker 1: of the burial and the body. They're really representing the

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Speaker 1: dead person. So you got to jump through a lot

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Speaker 1: of hurdles to get an exhimation. But Cataline, I just

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Speaker 1: got to hear this, what body? How did you get

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Speaker 1: a body zoomed in? Why? Well, we had a little

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Speaker 1: girl that was hit on I ten in Henderson, Louisiana,

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Speaker 1: back in the eighties and her body it was a

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Speaker 1: Jane Doe and no one had ever identified her. So

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Speaker 1: one of my friends a lot of support group for

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Speaker 1: victims of crime, because my only child was murdered in

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Speaker 1: the ninety four also, so and her daughter was buried

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Speaker 1: by this Jane Doe, and she kept telling me that,

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Speaker 1: and so we've kind of decided that we were going

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Speaker 1: to try to identify her. So I went to the

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Speaker 1: Facist laboratory at LSU, and I have met with Mary

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Speaker 1: Mannhind and she says, if y'all can get the body, zoom,

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Speaker 1: I'll come down and get the body. So I went

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Speaker 1: back to the District Attorney's office. We wrote up the order,

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Speaker 1: he signed it, got a judge to sign it, We

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Speaker 1: got a funeral home to come, and I was there

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Speaker 1: when they did the grave. They opened her casket and

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Speaker 1: they took her little body and Mary took her to

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Speaker 1: the Facist laboratory and back rooms all the way. What

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Speaker 1: did you find out? Unfortunately she couldn't be identified. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not for lack of shrine. No, we did try.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad to know you have that experience under your belt, Cataline,

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Speaker 1: because it's very rare to find someone that actually successfully

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Speaker 1: gets an eximation, you know, just an assign Jackie just

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Speaker 1: raised up a note here, doctor Michelle Dupree, does embalming

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Speaker 1: a body affect the ability to retrieve DNA or extract DNA.

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Speaker 1: It does affect the ability to extract nuclear DNA, which

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Speaker 1: is typically the kind of DNA that we always talk about. However,

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Speaker 1: earlier I mentioned mitochondrial DNA, and mitochondrial DNA can be

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Speaker 1: taken from the bone marrow. So if there's still bone

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Speaker 1: marrow available and this last a very very long term,

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Speaker 1: then embalming does not affect that, and we would still

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Speaker 1: be able to possibly to get DNA from that. What

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Speaker 1: about the nucleus of the hair, doctor Dupree? Couldn't you

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Speaker 1: get nuclear DNA from that? Yes, she may be able to,

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Speaker 1: but again, depending on how long that body has been buried,

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Speaker 1: it may have deteriorated. You know, I'm completely transfixed on

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Speaker 1: how we're going to identify who this baby is. Now

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Speaker 1: share I'll a point with the genetic genealogist and founder

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Speaker 1: of our roots DNA Shara, Again, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. How how's it going to just explain it

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Speaker 1: to me in regular people talk? Okay, Nancy, So genetic

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Speaker 1: genealogy is actually the use of the results of an

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Speaker 1: autosomal DNA test, which is a direct consumer test that

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Speaker 1: twenty six million people have tested as of today, and

424
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: we use those results just like we would use a

425
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: birth certificate or a census record to determine relationships between individuals.

426
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: So basically, I would look at the list of the

427
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: DNA matches of this baby once the DNA has been

428
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: extracted and put in the correct format, and what I

429
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: look for is shared matches, and I need to find

430
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: the common ancestors within those matches that would give me

431
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: a possible surname, a possible location of ancestors, and then

432
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: I build a family tree from those ancestors. I build

433
00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: it down. Okay, hold on, you're going warp speed with

434
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 1: me here, hold on just a moment, and I are

435
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: you familiar. I'm sure you are with the recent cracking

436
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: of the case of a Golden State killer. He raped

437
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: and murdered so many people throughout the California region. Actually

438
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 1: had been a cop in two different jurisdictions, and it

439
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: was just cracked recently, and I met with the one

440
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: of the team. He's always very modest, reminds me a

441
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: little bit of you. Major Rayburn he always it's Paul

442
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: holds h ol eyes. He always says, I'm part of

443
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: a team. But he has taken the forefront of that.

444
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is right. You don't just get

445
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: the DNA, say the rape kit or from the baby,

446
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 1: and then plug it into a machine and poof outcomes

447
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: the mother or the perpetrator. He put it up on

448
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 1: a flow chart, really a big poster. You gotta go

449
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: way back because the mother in this case may not

450
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: be in the DNA data bank hotis. She may not

451
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: be there. She may very well not be a criminal

452
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: offender that had to give their DNA, or a civilian worker.

453
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: I mean I had to give my fingerprints to be

454
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,239
Speaker 1: a district attorney, an assistant DA. She may have never

455
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: given her a DNA, but somebody connected to her may

456
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: have done ancestry dot Com or or whatever. She may

457
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: have a relative that is a civilian, a civil servant,

458
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 1: or in jail that gave their DNA. So you have

459
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,119
Speaker 1: to go back, way back. Let's just say great great

460
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: great great grandparents and start building a family tree and

461
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: seeing who pops up in connection to the baby. It's

462
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 1: very complicated, Sarah, Yes, Nancy, it is it is a process.

463
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: It can take a long time to do. And again

464
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: it depends on how close the matches are. If if

465
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: you have a second cousin match, that means you share

466
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: great grandparents. So in that situation, I would store it's

467
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 1: a great grandparent, look at their children and then look

468
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 1: at their children, and you have to have DNA on Well,

469
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 1: how would you know? How would you know it's a

470
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: second cousin. Well, when you get a list of DNA

471
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: matches from this company, say you test it family Tree

472
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: DNA or at ancestry um. What I would get is

473
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: a list of DNA matches and it tells me um

474
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:28,480
Speaker 1: the possibility of relationships to that match um. And it's

475
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: all measured in centa morgan um. So it's say if

476
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: you were in what WA, it's measured in what to

477
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: Morgan's and that is the rule. Okay. Sent to Margins,

478
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: m O R G A N. Sent to Margan's h

479
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: Major Rayburn and Cataline. Have you ever heard this talk before?

480
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: Sent to Margins. I'm not familiar with that one. I

481
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: feel like I'm back in school. Please keep talking to Sara.

482
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: So it's measured in SENTA and the rule of measure

483
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: of DNA. Apparent child would measure an average of thirty

484
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: two hundred to thirty five hundred. Sina Morgan's a sibling

485
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: would be around twenty three hundred. A grandparent and uncle,

486
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: half sibling, niece nephew would be around eighteen hundred. So

487
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: we look at those numbers and it's a puzzle. You

488
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: try to fit the DNA matches together to figure out

489
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: who the shared ancestor is, and then we begin building

490
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: the family tree crime stories with Nancy Grace, I want

491
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: to go back to the initial facts about a little

492
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 1: bitty baby found. You know, my mom worked out a

493
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: big canning company and I would go through the factory

494
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: to get up to her office and I would see

495
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: huge drums like this, and I'm just thinking of a

496
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: little bitty baby girl left in there overnight, found sucking

497
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: her thumb, dead the next morning. Just thinking about that,

498
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 1: it's kind of overwhelming to me, Major, because I remember

499
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: how helpless the twins were when they were born. They

500
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: couldn't even hold a little heads up. Major Rabram, what

501
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: do you think if that body is exhumed? What chance

502
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: do we have with the help of Catalene and the

503
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: help of Shara, What chance do we have of solving

504
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: this is like any other case, you have to put

505
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: the puzzle together, and we're hoping that Shara and her

506
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: genealogy DNA background can put the puzzle piece that we

507
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: need in place. I first got involved with DNA in

508
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: a serial homicide case from Baton Rouge and learned the

509
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: power of chasing relatives through DNA. In that case, our

510
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: serial killer had some some unique markers in his DNA

511
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: that they chased in the crime database that we're able

512
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: to find a distant relative that started putting this on

513
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: the trail to this. So I know, with the advances

514
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 1: today and the amount of DNA that people have put

515
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: into the data banks for their genetic research, I think

516
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: we have a really good chance at finding a relative

517
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: that may push us towards the mother. Wow, has it

518
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 1: been publicized at all yet, Major Rayburn, that you're on

519
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: the hunt and that the body's going to be exhumed

520
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: because who knows the mother may may, doubtful may come forward. No,

521
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 1: it has not been publicized. But you know word of mouth, Well,

522
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: it's about to be the word of mouth in a

523
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 1: small community. It will not take long, you know, our

524
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: cold taste detective has been poking around the PD and

525
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: trying to find evidence and case files, and you know

526
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 1: the word is starting to spread. Second thiege. Now one

527
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: thing still's bothering me, Major Rayburn, Well many things, but

528
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: thank goodness, we know where the body is that hasn't

529
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: been lost in the evidence room. And you know, on

530
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: TV and in movies they always it's always a plot

531
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: as somebody hides the evidence, or they steal the evidence,

532
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: so they swap the evidence. It's not so not like that.

533
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: That evidence room is really it's a room usually with

534
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,400
Speaker 1: shelves or tables and a bunch of boxes stacked on

535
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 1: top of each other, and maybe maybe a name scribbled

536
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: across it. Somebody asked me how many cases I tried.

537
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: I tried to piece it back together. But in those days,

538
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: I was trying cases so fast and furious. I'd be

539
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: lucky if I even wrote a defendant's name down on

540
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: a list before I went to the next one. And

541
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: in an evidence room, especially one that's been moved a

542
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: couple of times, I find that very odd that the

543
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: receipt was put in there with the girdle. Very odd, indeed,

544
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: But I mean it makes me wonder did a man

545
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: do that? Did a man also kill the mother? There's

546
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: this could go in so many different directions, but it's

547
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: highly unlikely if he did kill the mother, he would

548
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: dispose of their bodies separately. Anyway. That's a whole other

549
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: can or worms right there. But we've got the main evidence.

550
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: We've got the baby's body. That's what we need from there.

551
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: You know, we can go somewhere, we do it. We

552
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: do have the body, and that's that's the first step,

553
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: is to retrieve the body, the evidence for from that child,

554
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: and hopefully we'll get a good DNA DNA reading on

555
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: it and get a good a good match somewhere. That's

556
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 1: gonna be determined by some medical examiner that's going to

557
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,800
Speaker 1: take those samples. Katleen is going to take care of

558
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 1: getting the body exhumed and then share on the point

559
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: from our roots DNA taking the time and the energy

560
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: and the man hours and the research it will take

561
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: to make heads or tails out of this cataline. What

562
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: do you want in the end, Because I know what

563
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 1: I want. I want to see a name on that

564
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: grave marker, and I want that baby to rest in peace.

565
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: I do too, and most most definitely I want to

566
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: see this sweet little angel get justice. That is so

567
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,399
Speaker 1: important and I want her to be identified. So that's

568
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: that's my end result is justice and for her to

569
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: be identified and whoever it just tours to pay for it.

570
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: You know, it just hit me, Major Rayburn. I've been

571
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: sitting here analyzing this is the case. But the thought

572
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: of my little Lucy at two pounds, being left in

573
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: a big, cold, fifty five gallons drum overnight and her

574
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 1: crying and sucking her little thumb for comfort, it is

575
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: just is so upsetting. This little baby weighed six pounds.

576
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: We have a whole community that would have taken this job. Okay,

577
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 1: we wait as justice unfolds, and our new friends Kathleen Terrier,

578
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 1: Major Wendell Rayburn from Iberia Parish and Sheryl Appoint founder

579
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: of our Roots DNA god Willing will be back with

580
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: us as this case progresses. In the investigation goes on

581
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend