Speaker 1: Previously on Death and Deceit in Alliance.
Speaker 2: I know you have no idea who I am, but
Speaker 2: I have some interesting things that we've learned about Givan's
Speaker 2: murder through the years.
Speaker 3: I know that someone as close as you you had
Speaker 3: to have had a million thoughts.
Speaker 4: Run through your head and wondering who could have done.
Speaker 5: This to her?
Speaker 6: Who was there?
Speaker 7: Who could possibly know something?
Speaker 8: They're an officer that lived near here, in one of
Speaker 8: these houses close.
Speaker 6: I don't want to get into all that. I mean,
Speaker 6: like I said, this is the end of this conversation.
Speaker 7: I know you've got family and law enforcement right, Yes.
Speaker 6: Mister Jenkins is a captain there.
Speaker 7: Well, hey, I gotta go.
Speaker 6: You guys have a great day. Every time we'd reference police,
Speaker 6: that would shut.
Speaker 3: It down, I'm talking shit.
Speaker 5: I'm done.
Speaker 1: Came by one time threatened to split my throat.
Speaker 2: I've met the killer and I know where he is,
Speaker 2: and I suspect he's still killing. And yes he's a cop.
Speaker 1: This is Death and Deceit and Alliance, a real time
Speaker 1: investigation into whether David Thorn killed Yvonne Lane. I'm Maggie Freeling.
Speaker 1: When I first learned about David Thorne's conviction, I'd really
Speaker 1: only heard surface details about the woman at the heart
Speaker 1: of the story. I knew Yvonne Lane had five kids.
Speaker 1: I knew she was pretty and fun, but I didn't
Speaker 1: know a lot about her life. David spoke of her
Speaker 1: in glowing.
Speaker 6: Terms anytime I was with her. She was always great
Speaker 6: with the kids, and the house was always clean.
Speaker 1: They were always pad But as I dug deeper, my
Speaker 1: understanding of this twenty six year old woman started to evolve.
Speaker 1: She was complicated, of course we all are, but Yvonne
Speaker 1: was more than most. She adored her children, yet by
Speaker 1: their own accounts, she was sometimes abusive. She allegedly sold
Speaker 1: sex for money, and yet, from what I can gather,
Speaker 1: also wanted to be a good Jehovah's witness in the
Speaker 1: eyes of her religious parents. Confused, I circled back to
Speaker 1: David a few months into my investigation. He agreed, and
Speaker 1: he added, yeah, he hadn't told the full truth about
Speaker 1: Yvonne when I first asked, because he didn't want to
Speaker 1: quote besmirch her. It's tricky to talk about someone when
Speaker 1: they're dead. Nothing Yvonne did could have justified her death,
Speaker 1: and I want to be clear again. Exploring her activity
Speaker 1: is not victim blaming their facts about a high risk
Speaker 1: lifestyle an important part in trying to figure out who
Speaker 1: was responsible for her murder if not David, and so
Speaker 1: David says he didn't talk much about the qualities in
Speaker 1: her that people might negatively judge. But to understand a murder,
Speaker 1: you have to understand the victim. Police know this, of course.
Speaker 1: That's why one of the first questions they try to
Speaker 1: answer in a homicide is is there anyone who would
Speaker 1: want the person dead? Most homicides are at the hands
Speaker 1: of someone the victim knows, so it's an obvious starting point.
Speaker 1: And as I mentioned, this vicious crime didn't seem like
Speaker 1: the work of a hit man. It seemed personal, rageful, messy. Yet,
Speaker 1: according to the case file in Yvonne's murder, investigators in
Speaker 1: the case didn't bother interviewing a lot of the people
Speaker 1: closest to her. There's no records of interviews with her
Speaker 1: sisters or her father. We only know of her mother, Tanya,
Speaker 1: speaking to the police, as well as a young woman who,
Speaker 1: as far as Tanya knew, was Yvonne's closest friend.
Speaker 9: Reading your parents impact your name was given us as
Speaker 9: Yvonne one of Yvon's bestranger.
Speaker 6: You've had any information we might get the states, Well,
Speaker 6: whatever you keep post.
Speaker 1: This is an interview with a twenty nine year old
Speaker 1: woman named Liz, conducted by detectives Samson and Mucklow on
Speaker 1: April second, nineteen ninety nine. It's one of the few
Speaker 1: interviews on File with people in Yvonne's life. According to Liz,
Speaker 1: Yvonne was a lot more complicated than she apparently seemed.
Speaker 1: Yvonne met Liz through church. Liz was a member of
Speaker 1: the same Jehovah's Witness Church as Yvonne's family.
Speaker 5: Her dad Jaron ad to if I started Bible study
Speaker 5: with her to help for try to get her life
Speaker 5: on track with you know, try and straighten her life
Speaker 5: out and really hard Shoin and from Eric going up
Speaker 5: to jail and having portrait and she really needs an
Speaker 5: en porridgement in health and with Melan a tent straight
Speaker 5: down photo and well.
Speaker 1: They Liz said, she met Yvaughn in nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 5: So we studied for eight months and she really would
Speaker 5: for Gredden and you want to children, and during that
Speaker 5: time when she would confide and I'd go there on
Speaker 5: Wednesday night, Edith walk and you know we talked about
Speaker 5: hour and then week.
Speaker 1: Fetty, Liz said. Yvaughn mostly talked about her relationship with Eric.
Speaker 1: Eric even joined their study session. A few times.
Speaker 5: She would be to me that she wanted to marry her,
Speaker 5: and she told him the only the only way that
Speaker 5: she would marry him is that she wanted the fain
Speaker 5: thing as her. He wanted him straighten up. But during
Speaker 5: that time she wanted him to study the Bible also,
Speaker 5: and during that time she wanted to quick flop and
Speaker 5: you know, went free with him and was really trying
Speaker 5: to do, you know, what was right, and she would
Speaker 5: want him to do what was right too.
Speaker 1: Liz told a simil her account of Yvonne and Eric's
Speaker 1: relationship to those we'd heard before. She was really into him,
Speaker 1: but he was troubled and that trouble spilled into the relationship.
Speaker 5: But then you know, she can't be in the parts
Speaker 5: before and I don't know if you know about that.
Speaker 5: And he's very violent with her hand, very violent champing.
Speaker 1: This matches, But investigative reporter Duayne Pullman had told us
Speaker 1: that Eric was angry and rageful. We've tried to reach
Speaker 1: out to Eric multiple times through different means, and so
Speaker 1: far have had no luck. So the only information we
Speaker 1: have about Eric and Yvonne is what others have said.
Speaker 1: Liz also said Yvonne told her stories that reveal a
Speaker 1: lot about Yvonne's personality.
Speaker 5: And she'd tell me any story. I could not believe the
Speaker 5: fed happened to her, Like one time she had come
Speaker 5: any art film, she's putting it stack away and I
Speaker 5: towards the evening and she said, she told me that
Speaker 5: a tall man putting an antique jewelry into pocket. And
Speaker 5: so she went out of the court and said, you know,
Speaker 5: couldn't go, don't get out of here. Well did she
Speaker 5: believe he said that? And said, aren't you afraid of
Speaker 5: getting hurt? You know? She said, if you don't, let
Speaker 5: somebody know that, but you're not afraid of them, and
Speaker 5: to contect them, she said, then we'll come back in
Speaker 5: the middle of the night to fill whatever else you have.
Speaker 5: A jolia, I find her number five, but she fetched you.
Speaker 5: Then the man from down the street from for and
Speaker 5: she knew been doing the drug dealing.
Speaker 1: This isn't the first time we've heard that Yvonne was fearless,
Speaker 1: maybe to a fault.
Speaker 5: I remember her trying saying last Pheer said somebody she
Speaker 5: heard somebody robbed the door and stole a part a
Speaker 5: cigarette and loft it at her door, and you know,
Speaker 5: and I'm like, why why did somebody do? That's like,
Speaker 5: I don't know. And I met you sitting stories and
Speaker 5: unders that thought that she didn't fabricate the things that
Speaker 5: had story. But then you know, I don't know that
Speaker 5: just being odd for but you know, I guess your
Speaker 5: association through and around. I guess she said, coming fact
Speaker 5: like that all the time, Oh Bob, know, you know,
Speaker 5: being afraid grand darents coming in and jolly no night
Speaker 5: and being fat. It to me that both shocking, and.
Speaker 1: I thought this tidbit was interesting, Liz wondering why these
Speaker 1: things could happen to Yvonne, and then she said, well,
Speaker 1: I guess it's her associations. Although Liz never admits to
Speaker 1: knowing specifics, it seems like she sent the kind of
Speaker 1: crowd Yvonne ran with, wasn't studying the Bible on weekends.
Speaker 5: And of course you want being a spear with that
Speaker 5: she want. I mean, she was doing little tiny personally,
Speaker 5: but boy, she feared nothing, you know, and she's like, hey,
Speaker 5: okay whatever.
Speaker 1: Despite Yvonne's mother saying she thought Liz and Yvonne were close,
Speaker 1: Liz said her friendship with Yvonne was pretty short lived.
Speaker 1: After studying, they mostly lost touch.
Speaker 5: The path with eight months. I really don't know any
Speaker 5: personal information. I know it's what happened last year in Night,
Speaker 5: Night made the Stormy.
Speaker 1: After eight months of Bible study together, Liz saw Yvonne
Speaker 1: here and there, but they didn't really catch up. Liz
Speaker 1: didn't know much about Yvonne's personal life besides Eric. Detectives
Speaker 1: asked her about David, and she didn't know much.
Speaker 10: You don't know, no, I don't know who's good. Like
Speaker 10: I said, it hadn't chable boy. You know, if that
Speaker 10: dad hadn't really talked to her fall, you.
Speaker 5: Know, very.
Speaker 9: Would expressed any kindac staring about it, it might have
Speaker 9: been different.
Speaker 5: Like said, she didn't frank any sorry, and she seemed
Speaker 5: happy you fitting an addressed to the memorial.
Speaker 1: So Liz lost touch with Yvonne, which makes it interesting
Speaker 1: to me that Yvonne's mother named Liz as her daughter's
Speaker 1: best friend, clearly even though her mother still saw Yvonne
Speaker 1: all the time she was raising Yvon's first child. She
Speaker 1: didn't know much about what was going on with her.
Speaker 1: Danny John and I wanted to see if we could
Speaker 1: find out what Yvonne's life was like during those final months,
Speaker 1: so we found another friend to him.
Speaker 6: I don't associate with him.
Speaker 7: I don't approve the things he does.
Speaker 8: Yeah, hello, it's Danny.
Speaker 6: Are you Pam? Pam, I'm Danny John. I'll grab a chair.
Speaker 8: You sit down in the comfy chair. No, no, go ahead.
Speaker 1: One of the first things we did in Alliance was
Speaker 1: to track down a woman named Pam, who had come
Speaker 1: up in police interviews as someone Yvonne was close with.
Speaker 1: She's also done media interviews about Yvonne. However, it's important
Speaker 1: to note that they did have a falling out about
Speaker 1: a year before Yvonne's death. Yvonne quote beat the crap
Speaker 1: out of Pam for stealing her purse. Pam said she
Speaker 1: was on drugs and it wasn't a proud moment for her.
Speaker 1: And yet it appears that even though others mentioned Pam
Speaker 1: to the cops as well as the falling out, the
Speaker 1: police never interviewed her either as a suspect in Yvonne's
Speaker 1: murder or as one of her closest friends.
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sorry I have to talk about.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I get a sure on my boat. I used
Speaker 6: to admire how she.
Speaker 1: Did her on her Pam said she used to live
Speaker 1: next to Yvonne's parents and knew yvon since she was
Speaker 1: a kid. Pam would have been a couple of decades
Speaker 1: older in her forties when Yvonne was murdered.
Speaker 6: She's like my little daughter.
Speaker 8: So what how long have you known her?
Speaker 6: I'm to get over there.
Speaker 8: And so you're talking about next to where she grew up,
Speaker 8: that her parents show had daughter. Okay, so you had
Speaker 8: known her since if you knew her in the seventies,
Speaker 8: she was born in seventy two, so I knew well.
Speaker 1: I knew her long way at Pam seemed to know
Speaker 1: a lot of things about Yvonne that Yvonne maybe would
Speaker 1: have been uncomfortable telling. Liz, a strict Jehovah's witness, Yvonne
Speaker 1: revealed that all was not easy at home, and it
Speaker 1: wasn't just conflicts about the church. She talked to Pam
Speaker 1: about some behavior that made her uncomfortable and even made
Speaker 1: her want to stay away Allegedly, it was a complicated
Speaker 1: household to say the least. John and Danny asked Pam
Speaker 1: if she was aware of Yvonne's soliciting money for sex.
Speaker 1: Pam said she only heard after the fact, but there
Speaker 1: was some information. Pam did say she knew.
Speaker 6: But I never known Yvonne do what she did.
Speaker 9: What I heard would about life, but I know she
Speaker 9: had trouble with cops and she would.
Speaker 6: Day in a cop.
Speaker 1: This was the first time we'd heard from someone that
Speaker 1: Yvonne had specifically told them she was seeing a cop.
Speaker 9: You were dating a cop or she didn't tell me
Speaker 9: who it was and I didn't want to know, So.
Speaker 6: You never knew which cop she was.
Speaker 4: So she was dating one willingly, yes, and you don't.
Speaker 6: Remember who that was. She didn't tell me, Oh, okay, okay,
Speaker 6: she didn't tell me.
Speaker 1: But Pam did seem to know about something else you
Speaker 1: were wondering, and she probably tried to.
Speaker 5: Black the daddy.
Speaker 4: Was that something that you could see her doing, like
Speaker 4: blackmailing to get a little money.
Speaker 6: Or something.
Speaker 7: To keep it quiet?
Speaker 6: Yeah, or who's the baby dad would have been? They
Speaker 6: wanted to keep it quiet.
Speaker 1: Allegedly, Yvonne had a habit of telling guys she was
Speaker 1: pregnant and getting money from them. I asked David about this,
Speaker 1: Did she ever tell you about shaking people down?
Speaker 6: I knew that that's kind of something that she did before.
Speaker 9: I knew that she would tell people that she was
Speaker 9: pregnant and then asked for money for an abortion. That's
Speaker 9: how she would send money to Eric when he was
Speaker 9: in the joint, because she was in and out and
Speaker 9: so often.
Speaker 1: And the shakedown scenario isn't just from David and Pam.
Speaker 1: It also came from the mouth of one of the
Speaker 1: detectives on Yvonne's case. According to investigative journalist Duyne Pullman.
Speaker 7: As a detective who handled the case, I was kind
Speaker 7: of surprised.
Speaker 6: He even mad.
Speaker 1: Dweene met with Detective John Leech at a restaurant during
Speaker 1: his investigation. According to Dwayne, this is what happened when
Speaker 1: they sat down. So you're at a restaurant and he
Speaker 1: just says this to you, Yeah, in a sit down.
Speaker 6: I don't know what the hell we were I didn't.
Speaker 7: I don't even think I ate. I was like, this
Speaker 7: is really weird. Without any context, just blurts out that some.
Speaker 6: Or had gotten a hold of his wife. I don't
Speaker 6: use that term.
Speaker 7: He did gotten a hold of his wife, tried to
Speaker 7: shake it, to try to blackmail him, shake him down,
Speaker 7: And I said, who else could that be? Because Yvonne
Speaker 7: had done that? According to people I had talked to before.
Speaker 1: We haven't talked much about Detective John Leach, but Detective
Speaker 1: Leach was at the murder scene with detectives Mucklow and
Speaker 1: Samson and was with them when they conducted some key interviews,
Speaker 1: including the one that led to Joe Wilkes's confession. And
Speaker 1: if you've been wondering who the cop was that George
Speaker 1: Hale said he identified leaving Yvonne's house the morning of
Speaker 1: her murder. George said he identified a cop who looked
Speaker 1: just like Leech in the line up he was given.
Speaker 1: And because of this, Detective Leech was always interesting to Duyne.
Speaker 7: You know, I'm not saying that Leech had anything to
Speaker 7: do with this. I want you to be clear on that.
Speaker 7: I am landing on probably not, but you know, it
Speaker 7: did kind of project a motive for covering up things
Speaker 7: and trying to make it go away. That's what I
Speaker 7: just took away.
Speaker 6: From all that.
Speaker 1: Yes, I had speculated earlier in the season that based
Speaker 1: on the amount of corruption in the Alliance Police Department,
Speaker 1: it was possible the cops had a reason to cover
Speaker 1: up Yvonne's murder. But now is there even more motive
Speaker 1: to make it go away? Besides a potential drug connection
Speaker 1: to the cops and allegedly sleeping with the victim? Was
Speaker 1: Yvonne shaking someone down? Was it a cop? Did that
Speaker 1: kill her? Did another cover it up for his buddy
Speaker 1: in blue? Maybe it was drug related, like Jeremy said.
Speaker 1: I asked David about all of this, Like he mentioned,
Speaker 1: he said he knew about the shakedowns while they were dating,
Speaker 1: but there was a lot about Yvonne, he said, he
Speaker 1: didn't learn until after she died. So did you know
Speaker 1: about Yvonne dancing?
Speaker 6: She told me that she had danced before.
Speaker 9: Yeah, and then I guess she was going to two
Speaker 9: little clubs or something like that, kind of on the side,
Speaker 9: after her and I had already broken up. It's like
Speaker 9: three phases that I know of her life, you know
Speaker 9: what I mean?
Speaker 1: Is that like shocking to you? Are you?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe now you've processed it, but was this like?
Speaker 1: Who the hell was this person?
Speaker 6: I was dating.
Speaker 1: Then David told me something we had never heard before.
Speaker 6: At the time, she told me that she was going
Speaker 6: to a convention.
Speaker 9: And then later that's whenever I found out that that
Speaker 9: was she was like a high end call girl.
Speaker 1: David said she'd asked him to drive her to the
Speaker 1: train station to go to neighboring states Indianna, Illinois, West
Speaker 1: Virginia to work at conventions. What did you think she
Speaker 1: was doing when she was going to the conventions?
Speaker 9: She said something that she got an office job and
Speaker 9: she was going to a convention for something.
Speaker 6: I don't I don't recall what it was.
Speaker 9: To be honest, it was only half paying attention to
Speaker 9: what it was that she was even talking about for
Speaker 9: a job. Even whenever she picked up a job, she
Speaker 9: never stayed anywhere for very long because something always come up.
Speaker 6: With the kid.
Speaker 9: Yeah, because whatever she was telling everybody, it had to
Speaker 9: be some variation and it couldn't be the same. So
Speaker 9: I don't know how she kept her life and a.
Speaker 1: Look for real, Again, I'm not shaming Yvonne. It's incredible.
Speaker 1: I have to keep saying that because even just talking
Speaker 1: about sex work makes people think someone is shaming. But
Speaker 1: why is it assumed to be shameful. We don't know
Speaker 1: that it was for Yvonne, but for our purposes, it's
Speaker 1: important to note that if she was a dancer or
Speaker 1: an escort or a sex worker, that is notoriously dangerous work,
Speaker 1: and that is because of the stigmas around it that
Speaker 1: these folks often don't feel comfortable reporting. So the more
Speaker 1: we investigate, the more people we find saying these rumors
Speaker 1: were true. That broadens the suspect pool, which becomes even
Speaker 1: larger if Yvonne was traveling to other states. Things are
Speaker 1: starting to get messier than we expected. So we decided
Speaker 1: to talk to another person who may know what was
Speaker 1: going on in Yvonne's life.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so has has anybody talked to you about Yvonne
Speaker 4: in the last few years?
Speaker 3: Order sister of Linda was doing.
Speaker 1: This is Vi, Eric's uncle. Linda is Eric's mom.
Speaker 3: So your sister is okay, So you knew Yvonne pretty
Speaker 3: well then, yeah, pretty decent.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she seems like a complicated person. She was in
Speaker 4: a lifestyle that apparently.
Speaker 3: Was you know, I used to different kind of women.
Speaker 6: My mom was real sweet.
Speaker 3: Sisters and stuff. I wasn't used to that, Like a
Speaker 3: little bit of deevs. Dark side people. She was up
Speaker 3: ryde and I tried to be there at poor because
Speaker 3: she was my nephew's girl on aging and he had
Speaker 3: some dark sides too.
Speaker 1: He also said she was often on pills, like Jeremy
Speaker 1: had mentioned, and I only bring that up again not
Speaker 1: to shame anyone's use or addictions, but to note the
Speaker 1: potential drug connection and Yvonne's state of mind. And speaking
Speaker 1: of her state of mind, we asked Vic about something
Speaker 1: else we had heard.
Speaker 3: She had come to you saying she had pissed off
Speaker 3: the wrong person at around that saying went to your
Speaker 3: mom's house looking for you is what it was.
Speaker 4: Told us because she was in some kind of trouble
Speaker 4: and she was wanting your help and said that she
Speaker 4: had fucked with the wrong person.
Speaker 1: She never got to me, and told me that Yvonne
Speaker 1: supposedly sought Vic out for help, but Vic says Yvonne
Speaker 1: never found him. However, this story does fit into what
Speaker 1: we heard from Jeremy that she was frantic just a
Speaker 1: few days before she was murdered. So did she kiss
Speaker 1: someone off and if so.
Speaker 6: Who.
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 4: One other thing that we hear, and you know, we
Speaker 4: have no idea this is true or not, but that
Speaker 4: she was, you know, involved with some number of police officers,
Speaker 4: a couple, you know, two, three, four, whatever it was,
Speaker 4: and that she would shake them down essentially like maybe
Speaker 4: they were married and then she would shake them down,
Speaker 4: said I'm want to tell your wife or something. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you wouldn't put it past her at that time. Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 4: Did you hear much that she was involved with a
Speaker 4: lot of men for money.
Speaker 3: That I didn't? You know, I couldn't really confirm that,
Speaker 3: but I different times I drive through a line, sir,
Speaker 3: and I'd see her. She got a little station waging car,
Speaker 3: and I's he her pulled over a lot of different times,
Speaker 3: like normal times talking to the police.
Speaker 4: M Okay, were they pulling her over or was she
Speaker 4: willingly just pulling over and talking to them?
Speaker 3: Friends do you have?
Speaker 4: Do you know any of those cops names that she
Speaker 4: was friends with?
Speaker 3: Oh there was one, okay she's talking about.
Speaker 4: So she didn't ever say anything about being like romantically
Speaker 4: or sexually involved with you.
Speaker 3: Know, but like I told you, she has some dark side.
Speaker 1: We're going to beat this cops name because he was
Speaker 1: not formally mentioned as a suspect.
Speaker 8: Wouldn't it happened when you first got wind that she
Speaker 8: was dead?
Speaker 6: What'd you think somebody in the place? Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 8: To be well, that's why we wanted to talk to you,
Speaker 8: because we that this was true, that she came to
Speaker 8: your mom almost desperate looking for you.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that makes to say who would have been that
Speaker 6: mad at her?
Speaker 1: Based on everything we heard in testimony, through interviews and
Speaker 1: police records, no one wants said David was mad at
Speaker 1: Yvonne or ever had been mad or violent with her.
Speaker 1: At trial, Yvonne's dad testified that they had a good
Speaker 1: relationship and remember even the child support agent said everything
Speaker 1: seemed fine with them, but we will find out that
Speaker 1: not everything is as it seems on the surface, coming
Speaker 1: up on deaf and deceit in alliance.
Speaker 4: Somebody was in that house then it was a It
Speaker 4: sounded to me like a woman's voice.
Speaker 1: And I really don't want to say anything.
Speaker 6: Why is that?
Speaker 7: Because I'm tired of being dragged in the middle of it.
Speaker 6: If if you're not in the middle, oh, I have been.
Speaker 5: For the last two years. Why did you find me here?
Speaker 4: So you remember seeing him?
Speaker 5: My boyfriend, my ex husband now but my boyfriend at
Speaker 5: the time we saw him there that night.
Speaker 4: If Joe's giving her permission so to speak to talk
Speaker 4: with us, you would think Joe's not worried about what
Speaker 4: she's going to tell us.
Speaker 1: I truly, honestly believe you didn't do it.
Speaker 6: I know David wanted.
Speaker 2: Him to, and I was under the impression that Dave
Speaker 2: was going.
Speaker 1: To pay him to death and deceit. In Alliance is
Speaker 1: produced and reported by me Maggie Freeling, with editorial consulting
Speaker 1: from Amber Hunt. Aaron Case is our legal researcher. Our
Speaker 1: executive producer is Steve Fishman. Our engineer and production coordinator
Speaker 1: is Austin Smith. Eric Axelrod is our assistant producer.
Speaker 2: Very mean, you see hungry