1
00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,040
Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door, open up.

2
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:12,440
Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

3
00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,520
Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man. A year later,

4
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:17,320
Speaker 2: I ended up writing the system.

5
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

6
00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:21,960
Speaker 1: in the world is going to think as a monster

7
00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,080
Speaker 1: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

8
00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:25,440
Speaker 1: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

9
00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:25,680
Speaker 1: with that.

10
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,639
Speaker 2: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

11
00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,200
Speaker 2: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

12
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,559
Speaker 2: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

13
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,800
Speaker 2: might have to play in my hanging. They had been

14
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 2: told that two prison officers would have to participate in

15
00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:43,760
Speaker 2: my execution.

16
00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,320
Speaker 1: Now I walked back inside that prison for the last time. Man,

17
00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:49,640
Speaker 1: all help broke loose.

18
00:00:49,680 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 3: But welcome to another edition of Wrongful Conviction. Today is

19
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,560
Speaker 3: a very special day because this is the debut of

20
00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:07,039
Speaker 3: wrongful Conviction behind bars, and our guest today is my

21
00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 3: dear friend, an innocent man stuck in a nightmare here

22
00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,240
Speaker 3: at Sing Sing Prison. John Adrian Velasquez, also known as JJ.

23
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,760
Speaker 4: John Adrien Belasquez, convicted of killing a retired New York

24
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,920
Speaker 4: City police officer during a botched robbery and Harlem, fifty

25
00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,880
Speaker 4: nine year old Albert Ward was killed. Velaskaz was found

26
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 4: guilty of second degree murder.

27
00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:27,040
Speaker 2: JJ.

28
00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,720
Speaker 3: Velaskaz was thrown in a lineup and fingered for murdered

29
00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,720
Speaker 3: by a drug dealer who the police threatened with the.

30
00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,119
Speaker 2: Rest with no physical evidence. Valaskaz was prosecuted for murder.

31
00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,840
Speaker 4: This sentence twenty five years to life.

32
00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:39,639
Speaker 5: Valaskaz remains in prison.

33
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:42,480
Speaker 1: JJ, welcome to the show.

34
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:44,040
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

35
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,520
Speaker 3: You're hearing a lot of background noise today, and there's

36
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,640
Speaker 3: a very simple reason for that, which is that we

37
00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,120
Speaker 3: are inside of Singsing Correctional Facility and it is a

38
00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 3: noisy place and there's really no getting away from it.

39
00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 3: I apologize for any distractions that you're going to experience

40
00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,920
Speaker 3: during today's show. We've highlighted the cases of over a

41
00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,680
Speaker 3: dozen people so far who've been exonerated, and my hope

42
00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:10,200
Speaker 3: is that in bringing more exposure and light to your situation,

43
00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,160
Speaker 3: that this will be another part of the process of

44
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,360
Speaker 3: getting you out. Because JJ is just as innocent as

45
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,520
Speaker 3: any of the people who've been on the show, but

46
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 3: as of yet, he has not been able to win

47
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,519
Speaker 3: his freedom. So that's what we're here to talk about today.

48
00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,360
Speaker 3: But before we even get into that, I want to

49
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:31,360
Speaker 3: go back. Let's go back to how you grew up,

50
00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 3: where you grew up. You know, we like to always

51
00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 3: give a little context.

52
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,639
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm a native New Yorker, grew up in a

53
00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,280
Speaker 2: middle class family home. My mother was a healthcare worker

54
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,240
Speaker 2: and eventually she went through training and became a union

55
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,640
Speaker 2: organizer for eleven ninety nine. My father is a former

56
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,960
Speaker 2: was a former US Army veteran who later became an

57
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:55,440
Speaker 2: Amtrak police officer. By the age of ten, things changed

58
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,840
Speaker 2: in my household. I started to realize a lot of

59
00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,360
Speaker 2: arguments and fight to what happening between my parents, and

60
00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,120
Speaker 2: it was because my father was actually living a double life.

61
00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:07,800
Speaker 2: He had two families. I found out for the first

62
00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,200
Speaker 2: time that I had a younger brother that was five

63
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,680
Speaker 2: years younger than me, half brother from another mother. I

64
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 2: was kind of ecstatic to have a brother. At that time,

65
00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:18,960
Speaker 2: I was young and I was naive, and I didn't

66
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,799
Speaker 2: really get to see what was about to happen. Because

67
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:26,520
Speaker 2: everything changed. The dynamics of my household changed. My father

68
00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:29,400
Speaker 2: wasn't around as much anymore, and he made it his

69
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 2: business to remain present in my life. But it's impossible

70
00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,840
Speaker 2: to be two places at once. And eventually I started

71
00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 2: to fill that void that I missed with my father

72
00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:45,320
Speaker 2: by spending more time in the Devil's playground. And for

73
00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 2: those that are listening that may not understand what the

74
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,000
Speaker 2: devil's playground is, the streets of New York are harsh,

75
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,040
Speaker 2: and when you go out there and you start to

76
00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 2: experience and be exposed to the streets, you start being

77
00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:02,080
Speaker 2: overwhelmed by certain environmental factors. In my particular neighborhood, there

78
00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,120
Speaker 2: was a lot of negative peer influence and that kind

79
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,760
Speaker 2: of changed the dynamics of my thinking. It changed the

80
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,080
Speaker 2: trajectory of my interests, where at one point all I

81
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,760
Speaker 2: cared about was school, sports, and home. And then a

82
00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:23,880
Speaker 2: time came where I lost interest in home in school,

83
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,120
Speaker 2: but I still had that interest in sports. I had

84
00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,239
Speaker 2: this dream because I was good. Baseball was really where

85
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,760
Speaker 2: I was at a lot of people believed in my talent.

86
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:35,680
Speaker 2: I had gotten hit by a bus at the corner

87
00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,919
Speaker 2: of my school when I was sixteen days after my

88
00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,480
Speaker 2: sixteenth birthday, and when the doctors told me that I

89
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,039
Speaker 2: would never be able to compete at the same level

90
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,039
Speaker 2: that I was used to. That changed my life. That

91
00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,640
Speaker 2: was a crossroad at that point when school went out

92
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,520
Speaker 2: the window, or when sports went out the window, rather,

93
00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,080
Speaker 2: school went out the window with it, and I started

94
00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,400
Speaker 2: cutting class, and before you knew it, I became so rebellious.

95
00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:03,600
Speaker 2: There were so many arguments in my household with my

96
00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,039
Speaker 2: mom's and I would try to play my father against

97
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,359
Speaker 2: my mother and my mother against my father. And eventually

98
00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:09,800
Speaker 2: I just got tired of it all and I ran

99
00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 2: away from home and in search of my independence. In

100
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,040
Speaker 2: pursuit of my independence, I found myself homeless. I've had

101
00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,400
Speaker 2: many nights where I went to sleep hungry, and I

102
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,200
Speaker 2: know what it is to live off of a dollar

103
00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,640
Speaker 2: a salami and a dollar cheese and a stolen loaf

104
00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,359
Speaker 2: of bread. And that's basically where everything started for me

105
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,960
Speaker 2: as a whole different aspect of living in New York.

106
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:37,560
Speaker 2: Because I was on my own and I didn't have

107
00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,599
Speaker 2: working papers, I didn't have an ID, I was a

108
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,240
Speaker 2: high school drop out. I'm running from my mother and

109
00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,240
Speaker 2: my father, so I can't I got to stay away

110
00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,039
Speaker 2: from police. I got to stay away from anybody who

111
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,080
Speaker 2: can officially report me to my family, and it was

112
00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,880
Speaker 2: a matter of pride, like I left and I didn't

113
00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:54,800
Speaker 2: want to go back. And then there was also a

114
00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:57,120
Speaker 2: matter of fear where it was like I'm going to

115
00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:00,280
Speaker 2: be judged when it gets scolded, you know, So there

116
00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,840
Speaker 2: was shame, There was a lot of different factors playing

117
00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,360
Speaker 2: in and it just made me go deeper and deeper,

118
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,920
Speaker 2: and it was like, I've realized now that that was

119
00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,880
Speaker 2: the worst choice in my life, because all I did

120
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:16,120
Speaker 2: from that point forward was continued to make worse choices

121
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:17,599
Speaker 2: that dig the deeper grave.

122
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:24,400
Speaker 3: You somehow or other, managed to survive very difficult circumstances,

123
00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,080
Speaker 3: a lot of disappointments, a lot of things that no

124
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,359
Speaker 3: child should have to go through and end up on

125
00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:31,080
Speaker 3: the streets.

126
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,159
Speaker 1: But you turned it around.

127
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,600
Speaker 3: To the extent that you met a great woman, right

128
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,479
Speaker 3: and you had a couple of kids. Yeah, So how

129
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,440
Speaker 3: did you go from a sixteen seventeen year old kid

130
00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,200
Speaker 3: on the streets to being a twenty two year old

131
00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,279
Speaker 3: man with a couple of kids and a wife and

132
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,320
Speaker 3: more of a stable situation.

133
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,800
Speaker 2: So basically what happened is being in the street, I

134
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:58,480
Speaker 2: met Vanessa. I met her at sixteen turning seventeen, Eventually

135
00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,320
Speaker 2: I started living with her and her family. He took

136
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,080
Speaker 2: me in and I was still trying to survive and

137
00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,000
Speaker 2: I was moving too fast for my own good. Before

138
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,760
Speaker 2: you knew it, I was a father, and that made

139
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,280
Speaker 2: me start to take life a lot more seriously. And

140
00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:14,920
Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out my way and say, all right, listen,

141
00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:16,480
Speaker 2: I need to do something, and I need to do

142
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,280
Speaker 2: something to ensure that my family's going to be all right.

143
00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,240
Speaker 2: Tried to look for jobs, but again my high school

144
00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 2: drop out. At that point, I didn't know what skills

145
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,000
Speaker 2: I may have had that were employable. I was a

146
00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 2: child trying to find my way. Before you knew it,

147
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,360
Speaker 2: I was a father with another child on the way,

148
00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 2: and it was rough. I was basically living off of

149
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,280
Speaker 2: Vanessa because she was getting welfare and it's all social service,

150
00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 2: you know SSI. I mean, the rent was under one

151
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 2: hundred dollars, so it was affordable, you know. But at

152
00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:49,240
Speaker 2: the same token, they don't know I'm living there. And

153
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,680
Speaker 2: it's crazy because yeah, I got arrested a few times,

154
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,320
Speaker 2: no charges ever, you know, stuck. I've gotten arrested for loitering,

155
00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,160
Speaker 2: I've gotten arrested for all kinds of little nonsense that

156
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,320
Speaker 2: happens in the neighborhood. They gave me a trespassing for

157
00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,200
Speaker 2: going to see a friend in the projects, because I

158
00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,400
Speaker 2: don't live in the projects. What people need to realize

159
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,680
Speaker 2: in New York and all over the world is that

160
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,600
Speaker 2: all it takes for you to be in my shoes

161
00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,280
Speaker 2: is to get arrested, for them to take a picture,

162
00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:17,520
Speaker 2: for them to take your name and put it in

163
00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,080
Speaker 2: a system, for them to take your fingerprints. That's what

164
00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 2: starts everything. That's what started for me. Somebody was able

165
00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,480
Speaker 2: to look at my picture in a database and say

166
00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:29,840
Speaker 2: that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

167
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,480
Speaker 3: And I want to talk about that for a second, JJ,

168
00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,000
Speaker 3: because I'm very well aware of the fact that in

169
00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,839
Speaker 3: the poorest neighborhoods like the one that you were residing in,

170
00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,680
Speaker 3: they do these sweeps and they'll pick people up for

171
00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,360
Speaker 3: riding a bike on the sidewalk or like you said,

172
00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,720
Speaker 3: visiting a friend. I mean, I'm not sure how that's

173
00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,800
Speaker 3: a crime. You know, trespassing, you could call trespassing anything.

174
00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 3: I mean, might as well arrest somebody for breathing. It's

175
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,880
Speaker 3: you know, it's almost a fada compleet. That a young

176
00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,880
Speaker 3: person like yourself, especially a person of color, is going

177
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,439
Speaker 3: to end up in the system in some form or

178
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,719
Speaker 3: another for doing the same type of thing that other

179
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,520
Speaker 3: people in other parts of the city or other parts

180
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:09,319
Speaker 3: of the country.

181
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:10,080
Speaker 1: Would not get arrested for.

182
00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 3: As you said, that starts a chain of events that

183
00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,319
Speaker 3: can only have negative consequences and in your case, tragic consequences.

184
00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:19,280
Speaker 3: When I tell these stories to people, they go, but

185
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,800
Speaker 3: that can be like, you can't convict somebody with no evidence,

186
00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,840
Speaker 3: but you can absolutely. So there you were, you have

187
00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,040
Speaker 3: your two kids, You're turning your life around, doing the

188
00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:29,640
Speaker 3: best you can.

189
00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,080
Speaker 2: At the time, Yeah, I was actually a student at

190
00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 2: TCI Technical Careers in trying to learn about computer programming,

191
00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:38,320
Speaker 2: trying to get a skill that would be employable.

192
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 3: And to your credit, it's interesting because I think for

193
00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:45,160
Speaker 3: some people, the responsibility of fatherhood, of having become a

194
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,559
Speaker 3: father at such a young age, causes them to run.

195
00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:49,520
Speaker 3: But in your case, you took it seriously, and you

196
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,080
Speaker 3: took it as it actually has an opportunity to turn

197
00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:51,720
Speaker 3: your life around.

198
00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, So one day everything changed.

199
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,600
Speaker 2: It's almost like a blink of an eye. I receive

200
00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,520
Speaker 2: a phone call. It was a Saturday morning, and it's

201
00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,920
Speaker 2: from my brother's mother, Carmen, who I also have a

202
00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:07,280
Speaker 2: very close relationship with. And basically my license, my driver's

203
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,240
Speaker 2: license was addressed to my father's address and that's where

204
00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,280
Speaker 2: Carmen and my brother Jason lived. So they went to

205
00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:17,199
Speaker 2: that apartment at like four in the morning Friday night

206
00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,600
Speaker 2: going into Saturday morning, and they were looking for me.

207
00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,520
Speaker 2: You have police officers looking for me, and they tried

208
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,040
Speaker 2: to even grab up my little brother. Now, at the time,

209
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,560
Speaker 2: I was twenty one years old, so my little brother

210
00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 2: being five years younger than me, it's sixteen years old.

211
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,920
Speaker 2: The description was given of two male blacks from twenty

212
00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 2: five to thirty years old. Why are you trying to

213
00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:41,880
Speaker 2: grab up this child? Clearly he looks like a child.

214
00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 2: Clearly he doesn't look like me either, and neither one

215
00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,880
Speaker 2: of us appear to be two black men, right, But

216
00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,120
Speaker 2: they're trying to grab him thinking that he's me for

217
00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 2: whatever odd reason. And then you know, Carmen just makes

218
00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,800
Speaker 2: a big stink and says, do you understand that this

219
00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 2: is the house of an officer who died within the

220
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,320
Speaker 2: last ten months. Do you understand what you're doing? You're

221
00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 2: violating the children of somebody who served this country, just

222
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,040
Speaker 2: like you. And that's when they were like, they eased

223
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 2: up a little bit. They didn't have a warrant for arrest,

224
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,840
Speaker 2: so they gave her a card and said, listen, you

225
00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,120
Speaker 2: get in touch with mister Velaskis. Please have him get

226
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,400
Speaker 2: in touch with us. We're trying to help him. I

227
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:21,560
Speaker 2: was living in the Bronx with Vanessa and I get

228
00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 2: this call from Carmen and it's a startling call because

229
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,200
Speaker 2: she's like, listen, you know, the cops are looking for you.

230
00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:28,960
Speaker 2: They're saying something about you shot a police officer and

231
00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,079
Speaker 2: that you need to call them. They're making it seem

232
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,600
Speaker 2: very serious. They came in here deep and I'm like, listen, Carmen,

233
00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,720
Speaker 2: what's going on? What are you talking about? I have

234
00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,600
Speaker 2: no idea what you're talking about. Slow down, and she's like, yo, listen,

235
00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,439
Speaker 2: all I know, here's a number they want you to call.

236
00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,960
Speaker 2: I'm like, what precinct did they come from? You know,

237
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:50,400
Speaker 2: where's this coming from? Listen, here's the name. His name

238
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:53,040
Speaker 2: is Joseph latrent That here's his phone number. They told

239
00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:54,520
Speaker 2: me the precinct at the time, it was a twenty

240
00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,640
Speaker 2: eighth precinct I don't think I even registered that was.

241
00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:58,560
Speaker 1: This four in the morning.

242
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:01,880
Speaker 2: She called me about nine in the morning. She waited

243
00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,320
Speaker 2: until a decent time I guess to call me. At

244
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,880
Speaker 2: that point, I started to kind of like panic, and

245
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 2: I was frantic. And I have two children. One is

246
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,560
Speaker 2: a child that's only a few weeks old. I have

247
00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,840
Speaker 2: Vanessa there. And Vanessa realized from the phone call that

248
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,400
Speaker 2: something serious is going on. But she's like, what's going on?

249
00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:22,439
Speaker 2: And I'm like, yo, just wait a minute. I gotta

250
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 2: process this, like I really don't even know what's going on, Like,

251
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,679
Speaker 2: let me call my mother. So I called my mother

252
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,080
Speaker 2: and I'm like, yo, ma, you know they're saying the

253
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,319
Speaker 2: police are looking for me. She started getting hysterical on

254
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,680
Speaker 2: the phone what happened, And I'm like, listen, I don't

255
00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,200
Speaker 2: know what happened. I don't know what happened. This is

256
00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:38,960
Speaker 2: what I know. I know the police are looking for me.

257
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,040
Speaker 2: I know it's the weekend. I know it's not a

258
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,080
Speaker 2: good time to get into contact with the police because

259
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:48,120
Speaker 2: I can't see a judge or anybody else until maybe

260
00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:49,960
Speaker 2: one day. If they come for me. They're saying this

261
00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,000
Speaker 2: is serious. They're saying I shot a cop. I have

262
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,720
Speaker 2: no idea what this is about, but I'm scared and

263
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:57,000
Speaker 2: I need your help. What are we gonna do? So

264
00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,480
Speaker 2: she's like, stay there, I'm coming. My mother lives upstate

265
00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,439
Speaker 2: at the time, and she came and picked me up

266
00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,079
Speaker 2: and she took me to the church that we used

267
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:06,360
Speaker 2: to attend together regularly on the weekend. It's called Love

268
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,320
Speaker 2: Gospel Assembly. We went to the church and there were

269
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:12,400
Speaker 2: a few people there and we started to tell what

270
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:14,680
Speaker 2: was going on, but everything was so limited, like we

271
00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,000
Speaker 2: didn't have any real knowledge. And they're saying, listen, the

272
00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,400
Speaker 2: first thing you gotta do is get an attorney and

273
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 2: contact the precinct. So we try to figure out, you know,

274
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,599
Speaker 2: who would be a good lawyer. So I try to

275
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,280
Speaker 2: speak to a couple of my friends that I know

276
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,000
Speaker 2: have been involved in the system. Do you know any

277
00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,520
Speaker 2: good lawyers? They tell me a name. His name is

278
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,079
Speaker 2: Franklin Gould May rest in peace. At this point, I've

279
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,440
Speaker 2: learned that he has passed away recently. So I'm trying

280
00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,720
Speaker 2: to get in touch with Franklin Gould. Bad part about

281
00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,720
Speaker 2: this again, it's the weekend. How do you get in

282
00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,920
Speaker 2: touch with a lawyer over the weekend? Right, and we

283
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,360
Speaker 2: were waiting for Frank Gould to get back to us,

284
00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,240
Speaker 2: and in that time, the range of emotions that we

285
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:54,960
Speaker 2: went through as a family picture us being in a

286
00:13:55,000 --> 00:14:01,560
Speaker 2: car driving around aimlessly. It's my mother, me, Vanessa, JJ,

287
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,400
Speaker 2: which is my son, right, I don't want to confuse

288
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:09,360
Speaker 2: nobody and Jacob, and JJ is three years old at

289
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 2: the time. Jacob is a few weeks He was born

290
00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:17,320
Speaker 2: December twentieth, and this is January maybe thirtieth, so he's

291
00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,160
Speaker 2: a little bit more than a month. And we're driving

292
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,000
Speaker 2: around aimlessly and aimlessly, and every time I see a

293
00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,920
Speaker 2: police car, it's like I get this little chill and

294
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,960
Speaker 2: I don't know what's going to happen here. Eventually we

295
00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,800
Speaker 2: get in touch with this lawyer. We were outside of

296
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,600
Speaker 2: a restaurant and I remember I spoke to him briefly.

297
00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 2: I didn't have any information for him. I didn't know

298
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:39,120
Speaker 2: what to tell him. He's asking me for information, like

299
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,880
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to know certain things. I don't know nothing.

300
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:47,280
Speaker 5: All you know is that the cops are looking for well, no.

301
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 2: I didn't even know there was a murder at the time.

302
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,560
Speaker 2: At that point. All I was told was that a

303
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 2: cop was shot but I just want to address this

304
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,560
Speaker 2: and get it over with because the longer I'm out here,

305
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,720
Speaker 2: the more my life is in jeopardy.

306
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:00,440
Speaker 1: And he wants you to give him deep tell what

307
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:01,720
Speaker 1: you would have to have them.

308
00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,600
Speaker 2: I'm trying to tell him, I'm hiring you so you

309
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,600
Speaker 2: can get the details, right, That's just why I'm calling you.

310
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,800
Speaker 2: So he said that he had contacted the precinct, but

311
00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,120
Speaker 2: that they weren't giving any information. They just wanted me

312
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,240
Speaker 2: to turn myself in. But I left them on the

313
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:20,720
Speaker 2: phone my mother, and when my mother came back, I

314
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 2: was so upset. I was scared, but I was so

315
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,120
Speaker 2: upset that I decided there's no way I want to

316
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,240
Speaker 2: deal with this guy. Because this lawyer told my mother

317
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,280
Speaker 2: that if we were to get pulled over by police,

318
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,400
Speaker 2: that I should put my head down in the ground

319
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,320
Speaker 2: and that my mother should throw her body over me

320
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,560
Speaker 2: to make sure that nothing happens to me because I

321
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,560
Speaker 2: could get shot. And I didn't like that. You know,

322
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:44,760
Speaker 2: if anything, he should have said that to me while

323
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,160
Speaker 2: I was on the phone. You don't see that to

324
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,520
Speaker 2: my mother had a frantic You know.

325
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:50,880
Speaker 3: That's a strange thing for a lawyer to say. I mean,

326
00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 3: I understand he was in a certain way trying to

327
00:15:54,400 --> 00:16:00,600
Speaker 3: prevent looking that's a little bit hysterical. Yeah, yeah, and

328
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,800
Speaker 3: you're absolutely right. I mean he should have addressed that

329
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 3: directly with you, right, So you ended up not engage you.

330
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 2: I didn't engage with him. We ended up dealing with

331
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,920
Speaker 2: an attorney. I believe his name is Goldstein. I don't

332
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,840
Speaker 2: know his first name. And he told us to go

333
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,520
Speaker 2: to a hotel and we got a hotel. We called

334
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,720
Speaker 2: him from the hotel, gave me the address, and everything

335
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,600
Speaker 2: is crazy. At this point, Vanessa and my mother go

336
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,720
Speaker 2: get the hotel room. I'm sneaking in through the back.

337
00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,520
Speaker 2: I'm afraid, and I'm staying in the hotel room. I'm

338
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,840
Speaker 2: waiting for this guy. So this the lawyer comes. He

339
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 2: comes to the hotel and he meets me, and he's like,

340
00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,920
Speaker 2: all right, how you doing? This is what's going to happen.

341
00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,480
Speaker 2: I contacted the precinct. I told him that I'm arranging

342
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,160
Speaker 2: to turn you in on Monday, right because it was Saturday. Still,

343
00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:41,960
Speaker 2: so he says, I'm going to turn you in on Monday.

344
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:43,960
Speaker 2: Until then, I want you to stay in this hotel room.

345
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 2: I do not want you to leave this hotel room.

346
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 2: I want you to shave your face. I want you

347
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 2: to be clean shaving. We're going to walk into that

348
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 2: precinct early in the morning on Monday, and we're going

349
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,800
Speaker 2: to deal with this situation. I want a thousand dollars

350
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:56,960
Speaker 2: right now. I want one thousand dollars the day that

351
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 2: you turn yourself in on Monday, and then you'll be

352
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,240
Speaker 2: like and Friday you'll be going to an arraignment, and

353
00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 2: at that point, I want five thousand dollars. And I'm like,

354
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,679
Speaker 2: what are you not getting I didn't do anything. What

355
00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,520
Speaker 2: are you talking about that? I got to give you money?

356
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,400
Speaker 2: Now give you money again, then give you money on Friday.

357
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:15,240
Speaker 2: And you're saying them, spend five days in jail. What

358
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 2: are you representing me for? And he's like, listen, I'm

359
00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 2: just telling you. These are some serious charge. This was

360
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,359
Speaker 2: going to happen. You want me to be real with

361
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,960
Speaker 2: you or not? So I give him the money. I

362
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 2: gave him the first thousand dollars, and I'm just frantic.

363
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 2: I don't know what's going to happen. This guy's telling

364
00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 2: me now that I'm going to jail like it doesn't

365
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,639
Speaker 2: matter what I did or didn't do I'm going to jail.

366
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 3: And let's go back for a second. I mean we're

367
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,240
Speaker 3: talking twenty years ago. That was a lot of money.

368
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:41,440
Speaker 3: I mean there's a lot of money. Now, yeah, there's

369
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:42,200
Speaker 3: a lot of money.

370
00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,720
Speaker 2: Absolutely. He actually said that the case was going to

371
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,880
Speaker 2: cost fifty thousand dollars before everything was said and done,

372
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,160
Speaker 2: because I would be going to trial on this case.

373
00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 2: So he basically convicted me before we even got to

374
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,560
Speaker 2: the precinct. So this is the mindset that I'm dealing with. Already,

375
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 2: two lowers have rubbed me the wrong way, and at

376
00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 2: that time, I'm not measuring if maybe it's because of

377
00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,840
Speaker 2: the emotions that I have something inside of me, maybe

378
00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,560
Speaker 2: it's not them. I'm not thinking like that. I was

379
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,119
Speaker 2: twenty one years old, and eventually, you know, I just

380
00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,000
Speaker 2: sitting there and I keep staring at my children. I'm

381
00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:20,880
Speaker 2: staring at for us, and I'm staring at my mother,

382
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,439
Speaker 2: and I'm saying, this might be the last time I

383
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,360
Speaker 2: get to see my children, This might be the last

384
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 2: time I get to see my mother. How did this happen?

385
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,200
Speaker 3: It's literally everybody's worst nightmare. Everybody's out to get you.

386
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 3: You didn't do anything and it's the most terrible thing

387
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:39,399
Speaker 3: that you could be accused of. The murder or the

388
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 3: shooting of a police officer is right at the top

389
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 3: of them to the list of things that you don't

390
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,159
Speaker 3: want to be wrongly accused.

391
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:48,960
Speaker 2: And bear in mind you're talking to the son of

392
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 2: a police officer. I was raising a police officer's household, right,

393
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,159
Speaker 2: I mean, what sense would it make for me to

394
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,480
Speaker 2: go out on a rampage and shoot a police officer.

395
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,120
Speaker 3: That's crazy, And you had no history of violence, and

396
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:05,520
Speaker 3: none of it adds up. The nightmare is growing as

397
00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 3: you are encountering these people who are supposed to be

398
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 3: on your side, people who are supposed to be helping you. Right,

399
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:14,840
Speaker 3: your only chance is to get a lawyer that's gonna

400
00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,159
Speaker 3: represent you. Monday comes.

401
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 2: Actually the step back just a second. Sunday I get

402
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,639
Speaker 2: a call from Frank Gould and Frank Gould man is

403
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,199
Speaker 2: something about this guy. He's a real smooth talker. He

404
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,440
Speaker 2: made me feel comfortable, and he said, Yo, listen, don't

405
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,639
Speaker 2: worry about that guy Goldsting. I'm gonna see if I

406
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 2: can get the thousand dollars from him. If not, don't

407
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 2: worry about it. We're not even talking about money. Right now,

408
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,240
Speaker 2: You're in a serious dilemma. And guess what, I want

409
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,399
Speaker 2: to meet you outside that precinct. We're gonna meet in

410
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,240
Speaker 2: the morning time. I'm gonna walk in there with you.

411
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,199
Speaker 2: We're gonna see what's going on. You wait for my

412
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,399
Speaker 2: phone call. After my phone call, you meet me in

413
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:51,800
Speaker 2: front of the twenty eighth precinct and we'll deal with

414
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 2: this situation. Made me feel a thousand times better. I mean,

415
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 2: he knew how to talk to me. He's talking to

416
00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 2: me like, all right, you're innocent. We're gonna see what's

417
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 2: going going on, and we're going to play this by ear.

418
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,560
Speaker 2: Not you're going to jail. You're gonna get shot. That's

419
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:10,359
Speaker 2: not what somebody wants to hear. And I really respected that.

420
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 2: And eventually Monday came and that's exactly what happened. We

421
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,679
Speaker 2: had found out that the apartment in the Bronx thirteen

422
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:23,439
Speaker 2: forty four University Avenue, the door to our apartment was

423
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,720
Speaker 2: hanging off the hinges with a police lock on it,

424
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,200
Speaker 2: which means that the police had gone into the building,

425
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 2: went into my apartment, knocked down the door. They've been

426
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 2: in it. They said it was trash. These were neighbors

427
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 2: that ended up calling. They got in touch with Vanessa,

428
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: I believe. So we sent Vanessa home and my mother

429
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 2: took me to the priests and to meet my attorneys.

430
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,639
Speaker 2: So now we get to the front and Frank Goule's

431
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 2: there with another attorney. Her name is Susan Walsh. We're

432
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 2: on the steps. My mother's like, you know you want

433
00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:52,879
Speaker 2: me to stay and wait for you out here. I said, listen,

434
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what's going to happen. Just go home.

435
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 2: If anything, I'll take a cab. Just go home. And

436
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 2: she's like, all right. I mean, that was the last

437
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 2: time I got to touch my mother as a free person.

438
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 2: It's kind of crazy. And we walked into the precinct

439
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 2: and when we went in there, Frank said give me

440
00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,280
Speaker 2: a minute. He left me there with Susan. I remember

441
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:16,639
Speaker 2: him coming back and saying, let's go. I said, what

442
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 2: you mean, let's go? He said, let's get out of here.

443
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 2: They don't got no warran for your arrest. So we're

444
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 2: walking out and I'm like, listen, Frank, you really have

445
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 2: to make me understand what's going on. I've been frantic

446
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 2: for an entire weekend, running around with my family, staying

447
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,639
Speaker 2: in hotels, being threatened by lawyers, and you're telling me

448
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,959
Speaker 2: we could just walk away from this. And he's like,

449
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: they don't have a waran for your arrest. So I

450
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 2: want you to go home, I said, and then what

451
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 2: happens when I go home? I got a door hanging

452
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 2: off a hinge. What happens when I go home? Is

453
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 2: this over? He said, no, it's not over. I said,

454
00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,400
Speaker 2: what do you mean it's not over? He says, they

455
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:53,919
Speaker 2: want to put you in a lineup. I'm not going

456
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:55,760
Speaker 2: to let them put you in a lineup. I said,

457
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: what happens if I don't get picked in that lineup?

458
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,360
Speaker 2: He says, then you're free. I said, so I'm going

459
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,239
Speaker 2: in that lineup. He says, no, you're not. Let us

460
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: do our job. Let them do their job. Okay. I'm like, no,

461
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 2: it's not okay. I want to go in that lineup.

462
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: You're telling me that the only way that this is

463
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 2: going to be over is if I go in that

464
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,159
Speaker 2: lineup and I don't get picked. I'm telling you I

465
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,640
Speaker 2: didn't do this crime. So I'm going in that lineup.

466
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 2: He says. If you get picked in that lineup, your

467
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 2: life is going to change forever. You're going to jail,

468
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 2: I said, And what happens if I leave? What are

469
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 2: they go pick me up? Put something in my pocket?

470
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: Or do they shoot at me? Do you realize what

471
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: I've been through this weekend? I'm going in that lineup.

472
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what we did. We walked back in

473
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: that precinct and I volunteered for that lineup. I stood

474
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: in the bullpen, like the outside area of a bullpen,

475
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: sitting in a chair with Susan wallsh for a couple

476
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: of hours while they went and got some fellers.

477
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 3: And this is a bizarre part of the story too,

478
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 3: because at this point it's interesting and it's important that

479
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 3: you highlighted that you just spent the weekend like a

480
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: fugitive hiding out.

481
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 2: It's exactly when we come.

482
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 3: To find out they don't even have a warn for

483
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 3: your arrest. Now you're volunteering for a lineup, which you

484
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 3: would be a little nuts if you were actually guilty

485
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 3: to go and do that. Absolutely that that doesn't add up,

486
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 3: And then you know, you don't have to be a

487
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 3: professor of criminology to understand that, right, And then on

488
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,280
Speaker 3: top of that, you didn't know this at the time,

489
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 3: But the suspect they were looking for was a guy

490
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 3: named Mustafa.

491
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: Is any part of your name Mustafa?

492
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:23,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely?

493
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 3: And the suspect they were looking for was a black

494
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 3: mail with dreads right, right? Have you ever been a

495
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 3: black mail or had dreads?

496
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 2: Maybe in another life?

497
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 3: Right, So it would be pretty much it would seem

498
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 3: like an open and shot situation. And there were numerous

499
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,359
Speaker 3: witnesses who all agreed on this description. It wasn't like

500
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 3: it was one that said this and one that said that.

501
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 3: There were numerous witnesses who all said that the suspect

502
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,760
Speaker 3: that the police were looking for was a guy whose street.

503
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: Name was Mustafa.

504
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 3: And I want to encourage people to watch the show

505
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 3: on jj coul Conviction, because in it you'll see the

506
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 3: actual police sketch, which it doesn't look any more like

507
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 3: you than it looks like me.

508
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: It's a guy, It's a black guy with dreads.

509
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 3: Had you known that, it would have been perfectly logical

510
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,480
Speaker 3: for you to go into the lineup. And I think

511
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 3: people can identify with the idea that you're going in

512
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 3: there and saying, well, I mean you grew up as

513
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 3: the son of a police officer. You're going to say

514
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 3: to yourself, well, the system is going to work.

515
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely right.

516
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 3: I mean that was my belief, right, You're going to

517
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 3: go in there and there's no way that somebody's going

518
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 3: to pick you out of that lineup, even not knowing

519
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 3: what we just talked about, right, But had you known that,

520
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 3: you would have been one hundred percent sure that if

521
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 3: you go in there, they can't pick you out of

522
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 3: that lineup. So finally, now you're going into the lineup. Yes,

523
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 3: and got to be a surreal experience too. It was

524
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 3: like kind of right out of a movie, right, so

525
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 3: for this time, you're not watching, you're actually in it.

526
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 2: Well, that was my second time ever being in a lineup.

527
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: The first time I was a student at Martin Luther

528
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 2: King High School and they had this little bus coming

529
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: around and they were offering us five to appear in

530
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: the lineup. And I took it five hours, you know,

531
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 2: take that, and I went to a lineup. So it

532
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 2: wasn't the first time I was in a lineup, but

533
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:08,720
Speaker 2: it was the first time I was in the lineup

534
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 2: as a suspect. And you know, I don't know what's

535
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 2: going on on the other side. If there's a mirror

536
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 2: there and I don't know what's going on the other side,

537
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: but I do know that Susan Walsh is on that side.

538
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: So what happened was when Frank Goule finally realized that

539
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: I was determined to go into that priest and volunteer

540
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: for the lineup, he said, listen, if you're going in

541
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: for the lineup, you're going to stay here with Susan.

542
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: I have to leave because it would be a conflicent

543
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,120
Speaker 2: interest for me to be your witness and your attorney.

544
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,479
Speaker 2: So she's an attorney and she is your witness. And

545
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: that's basically where I still felt comfortable, because I was like,

546
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: she's there, and I'm going to be all right. And

547
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 2: sure enough, at some point told number three to stand

548
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 2: and approach the mirror, and then they told him to

549
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 2: sit down. Then they said number two, we need you

550
00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 2: to stand up and approach the mirror. And I did

551
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 2: that and I sat back down. They said everybody said

552
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: thank you. Here it's like a speaker somewhere in the

553
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 2: room and he's like, thank you. Be there. Shortly somebody

554
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,120
Speaker 2: comes and opens the door and says everybody can leave.

555
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,399
Speaker 2: I start to get up. He's like, no, you stay,

556
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 2: so I don't know if I have to fill out

557
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 2: some paperwork or something before I leave, but I said,

558
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 2: all right, I sit down. Eventually they take me around

559
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: back to the same room and Susan's there and she's like, Jay,

560
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, but you're gonna be staying. I said, what

561
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: are you talking about. I'm gonna be staying. She said,

562
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 2: you know you were picked, but there's some serious problems

563
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 2: with your lineup. They made me wear a hat. I

564
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 2: don't know that that's a problem then, but they made

565
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 2: us all wear these black pullover hats, winter hats, ski hats.

566
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 2: They had a problem with fillers. But at the end

567
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: of the day, there's an existing affidavit from Susan Walsh.

568
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: She's admitting that my lineup was manipulated on that day,

569
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 2: and unbeknownst to me, what she's saying is that she

570
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: had an argument with the police officers about my position.

571
00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 2: She wanted me between number five and number six and

572
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 2: they said, nah, we're not doing that. Here he's sitting

573
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 2: right there, he's number two.

574
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 3: They didn't want you to be between five and six.

575
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 1: They wanted you to be number two. What is the

576
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: significance to.

577
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: That, Even towards trial. I really didn't understand the significance

578
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: of it. But now in all my studies, it's supposed

579
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 2: to be kind of a random process. And there's a

580
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: lot of studies going on now about sequential lineups and

581
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: double blind lineups. By putting me in a certain position,

582
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: it can be inferred that you have already told these

583
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 2: witnesses that an individual that committed the crime is going

584
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: to be sitting in a particular position, right, So that

585
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: would enable the identification.

586
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: Right.

587
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: Of course, they could say up front, you know, take

588
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 3: a real close look at number two, right, they could say,

589
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 3: And that's why a double blind and for those of

590
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,040
Speaker 3: you listening, a double blind means that the person conducting,

591
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: whether it's a police officer or anyone else conducting the lineup,

592
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: should not know cannot know who the suspect is, because

593
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 3: even if their intentions are pure, they subconsciously can steer

594
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,199
Speaker 3: a witness absolutely to just sort of take another I mean,

595
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 3: you're doing good. I know this is very difficult for you,

596
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 3: but you know you got to really try hard. Because

597
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 3: we've seen it many times. A witness will say, I

598
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 3: don't know, I don't I don't think I see the

599
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 3: person in it. Go, well, listen, I mean, we really

600
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 3: need your help. You know, this is a brutal crime,

601
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 3: this is a we've got to get this guy off

602
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 3: the streets. What they should be saying is, we don't

603
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 3: know whether the actual killer, the actual perpetrator, is in

604
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,239
Speaker 3: this lineup. Absolutely, but if you see them, then we

605
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 3: need your help. But they don't do that.

606
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: They don't.

607
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: Typically they they.

608
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: And they may in many cases, and we don't know,

609
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 3: but in your because we don't know what was going

610
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 3: on in that room. But it's entirely possible that in

611
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 3: your case, that your suspicions are true. That they said,

612
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: we think we got the guy. We think it's number two.

613
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: Take a look. Let's see if you agree.

614
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 3: Anything like that, even something much more subtle than that,

615
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 3: can really terribly mess up the process and eliminate objectivity.

616
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 3: But even their memories far from perfect, because.

617
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: That's what a lineup does. Who looks most like the individual,

618
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 2: it's not who looks most like the individual who did

619
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 2: it right. That's why we're here. And I was selected

620
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: by three individuals, Philip Jones, Robert Jones, who were both brothers,

621
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 2: and Augustus Brown. Later learning that Augustus Brown had actually

622
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 2: been the person who selected my photo which made me

623
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 2: a suspect, so there was really no need for him

624
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: to come and identify me again. So if you look

625
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 2: at it in a realistic manner, at the lineup, there

626
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 2: were only two people who really identified me because Augustus

627
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: Brown had already made me a suspect. But technically all

628
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 2: three of those individuals had of five individuals had identified me.

629
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: And we know that Augustus Brown had a very good

630
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: reason to want to identify you because Augustus Brown was

631
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 3: a heroin dealer. Yes he was so not somebody you

632
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 3: would consider to be a top notch witness or a

633
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 3: reliable witness necessarily, and he had a motivation which was

634
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 3: that when he was picked up, and correctly, if I'm wrong,

635
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: when he was picked up he was in possession of

636
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 3: ten bags of heroin, Yes he was, and the cops

637
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 3: weren't letting him leave until he identified somebody they wanted

638
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 3: this case soft.

639
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Augustus Brown is an interesting character all to himself.

640
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: He has a rap sheet that we can stick on

641
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: the wall and drop to the floor, but in reality

642
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 2: he was actively on probation at that time. We come

643
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: to find out a trial that he wasn't reporting, so

644
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: he had already abscounded from probation right this, which is

645
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 2: why he fled before any police would arrive. When he

646
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: gets picked up, because he didn't come to the priestint voluntarily,

647
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: they he was sent multiple messages to come to the precinct.

648
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: He was arrested on a street corner that he sold

649
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: drugs on. He did get caught with ten bags of

650
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,479
Speaker 2: heroin on him. He was brought to a precinct and

651
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: he spent hours in that precinct. He came about three

652
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: o'clock and he wasn't let go until about eleven o'clock

653
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: at night from a different precint. He has stated on

654
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: multiple occasions that he was wrong and that he was

655
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 2: forced to do what he did. And there's layers to this.

656
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: So when he was at the precinct, they were trying

657
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 2: to time in as an accessory to murder. They told

658
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: him we got you in possession of drugs. It violated

659
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 2: your probation, and you fled the scene. And we have

660
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: witnesses who think that you were a part of the team.

661
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,719
Speaker 2: So you're going to be charged with accessory to murder

662
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: if you don't help us do something he looks at

663
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 2: thousands of photos. It's supposed to be eight photos per page,

664
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 2: and he looked at a total of one hundred and

665
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 2: fifty six pages. But if you look at the description

666
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 2: that he initially gave to the police, which was consistent

667
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 2: and unanimous in the descriptions provided by all witnesses, that

668
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 2: stated that two black males came into that place and

669
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: victimize these individuals. One was dog skin and one was

670
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: light skin. The light skin individual had dreads or braids.

671
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: I don't know which one. Some of them said braids,

672
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 2: some of them said dreads.

673
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 3: By the way, it's also arguable that your picture shouldn't

674
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 3: have been in there in the first place, since you

675
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 3: were never convicted of any of it. Freedom Agenda is

676
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 3: a proud sponsor of this episode of wrongful conviction. Freedom

677
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 3: Agenda is led by people directly impacted by incarceration, and

678
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 3: they're organizing to get Mayor Eric Adams to follow the

679
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 3: law and shut down Rikers Island. Right now, thousands of

680
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 3: people are awaiting trial there in life threatening conditions. Freedom

681
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 3: Agenda is committed to creating a safer and more just

682
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 3: city by winning investments in long neglected communities, protecting the

683
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 3: rights of people involved in the criminal legal system, ending

684
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 3: the cycle of violence that rikers perpetuates. To learn more

685
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 3: about the Campaign to Close Rikers and to sign up

686
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: for Freedom Agenda's mailing list, go to Campaign to Close

687
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 3: Rikers dot org, slash, get involved, or follow at Freedom

688
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 3: Agenda and Why on social media. Back to where we

689
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 3: were at. You're now in this kafka esque and I

690
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 3: always say that, but it's true nightmare where you're ready

691
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 3: to leave the police station. You know they must have

692
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 3: identified somebody else or nobody because you didn't do anything

693
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 3: and you don't even know it. But you don't match

694
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 3: the description, not even close.

695
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: But they tell you to day.

696
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, so they tell me to stay. Susan says, listen,

697
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: we'll see you in court tomorrow. You'll be arraigned, and

698
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: we'll take it day by day, take it one step

699
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: at a time. In the meantime, before I leave, I

700
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: want you just to be conscious of something. We told

701
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: these offices that we took pictures of you and your

702
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: underwe in a hotel, and that if they touch you

703
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 2: they will be losing their job. So you should feel safe.

704
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 2: You should be all right. Do not speak to them

705
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,240
Speaker 2: about anything. And from that point I was escorted into

706
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 2: this small cage that had a concrete slab and a

707
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: bunch of bars, and I stood theify I don't know

708
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: how long, and you know, it was real. It was

709
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 2: a real, surreal experience where it was just like, you

710
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: know what, you gotta realize at this point, you just

711
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 2: have to block everything out and deal with the situation,

712
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Don't talk to them, don't

713
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: ask them no more questions, don't provoke them, just deal

714
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 2: with it. And that's what I did. Eventually we got

715
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,959
Speaker 2: to Central Booking, and Central Booking is like another zoo,

716
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 2: right they heard you from one place to another. You

717
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: shackled up on a chain gang. You got shackles on

718
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: your feet, and you go from one bullpen to another bullpen,

719
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 2: and it's twenty thirty of you moving. At the same time,

720
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 2: people are sitting on the floor. You have homeless people

721
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 2: in there. The smell is crazy. Some of these places.

722
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 2: The plumbing is all messed up, so you might have

723
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 2: some feet season and toilet or some urine in the toilet,

724
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: might have urine on the floor because it might have

725
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 2: flowed out, you know, And it's just a bunch of

726
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:16,240
Speaker 2: people around and you're lucky if you get a bench

727
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,720
Speaker 2: to sit on or whatever. And they kept moving, moving

728
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 2: the chain, moving the chain, and eventually you get to

729
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: this place and they start taking your stuff out of

730
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,160
Speaker 2: your pockets and they're searching you on the wall. And

731
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 2: that's when I had my first serious experience with corrections officer.

732
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: Just out of nowhere, towering office, A big hits me

733
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 2: in the back and I never knew that you can

734
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 2: get your wind knocked out from getting hit in the back.

735
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: Knocks me, knocks me down. I'm conscious, but I'm just

736
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 2: like blown away and he's just wailing at me, and

737
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: I'm just covering up officers that brought me in. They

738
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 2: were still around and they had stopped them. They say, oh, listen,

739
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: leave them alone. You can't do that. He's like, yeah,

740
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: but he killed a cop. He thinks he's a tough guy. Oh,

741
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 2: I'm a tough guy. And I'm like, yo, I don't

742
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 2: know what's going on. And what ended up happening at

743
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: that point was they moved me and I got separated

744
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,879
Speaker 2: from the rest of the prisoners and I got put

745
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 2: in a bullpenp by myself. I can still see prisoners

746
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: in a bullpen adjacent from me right across it got

747
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 2: bullpens everywhere. But I'm by myself now, so I definitely

748
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,439
Speaker 2: have all the room to stretch out and lay down

749
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 2: and do whatever on a bench. That wasn't the problem.

750
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: But I start to realize the fear of what that

751
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 2: lawyer was talking about that first time when he told

752
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 2: my mother that this is serious, and I'm wondering how

753
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: much more do I have to go through? And he

754
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 2: had before I'm able to get out. Fortunately for me,

755
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: I never had that problem again. But that's where I

756
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 2: first got a taste of reality. The next day came

757
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 2: and I go into another bullpen where they have these

758
00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: windows that you can have attorneys come visit you, so

759
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: they call your name. So eventually my name gets called

760
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: and I go in there and it's another attorney. It's

761
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 2: not frankl it's not Susan Wallash, somebody never met in

762
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 2: my life. His name is Norman Rima. And Norman Riema

763
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: comes and he tells me, says, listen, mister Velasquez, we're

764
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: about to go in front of the judge and you're

765
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: going to be arrainged. But I just want to put

766
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,320
Speaker 2: you on point to a few things that are important.

767
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 2: You're being charged with capital murder. I said, what is that?

768
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 2: He says, you're facing the death penalty. I said, what

769
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 2: the death penalty? I mean, I don't understand what's going on.

770
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:49,120
Speaker 2: And everything is spinning. The walls are spinning. Norman Reema

771
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 2: is talking. It's incoherent. I don't know what you're saying.

772
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: I don't hear you. I block everything out, and I

773
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 2: just I don't know how I got to that point.

774
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: And at that point, I don't even know how I

775
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 2: coped with that, How I dealt with that, I don't know.

776
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: I went into some short sense of trauma and I

777
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: became numb. I do recall him saying, don't worry about

778
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 2: the death penalty, which was didn't do any good, right,

779
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: But he said, don't worry about the death penalty because

780
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 2: Robert Morgenthal has never pursued the death penalty in New York.

781
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: So within six months they'll probably drop that and you'll

782
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 2: be facing natural life in prison. And I said, Norman,

783
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 2: I didn't commit this crime. Why are we talking about death?

784
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 2: Why are we talking about natural life? Why aren't we

785
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: talking about freedom? Why aren't we talking about restoring my status?

786
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: As a citizen, and he's like, listen, you just have

787
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 2: to stay strong. But you're not going nowhere. You're not

788
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:57,480
Speaker 2: getting bail. You're gonna have to go through this process.

789
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 2: I said, well, how long is this process going to take?

790
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 2: And he said anywhere from six months to a year,

791
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: maybe two years. There's no telling. You just gotta stay

792
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 2: strong and talk about a turning point in life. Everything

793
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 2: changed from there. I got sent to Rikers Island. Ryk

794
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 2: As Island is a war zone. You know, they call

795
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 2: that the school a hard knocks, but it's more like

796
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 2: Vietnam or going to Iraq because everywhere you go there's blood.

797
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: And that's all that happens is humans shedding other human's blood,

798
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 2: and you see it everywhere. There's no way around it

799
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,359
Speaker 2: to fight after fight. I mean, I don't know how

800
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 2: is it able to navigate through a lot of that,

801
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 2: But I made it through. I have no scars, I'm

802
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 2: still safe, I'm in one piece, and I'm blessed. Eighteen

803
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 2: months I did on Rykers Island. Eighteen months. I was

804
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: able to navigate through the bull and eventually I went

805
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 2: to trial. And going to trial was the first time

806
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: I get to learn how everything unfolded and took place.

807
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 2: Because for all those months I still couldn't understand what's

808
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: going on. How did it happen, what took place? Why

809
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,240
Speaker 2: am I here? Those questions weren't answered. They weren't answered

810
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,439
Speaker 2: by my lawyers. They just stay strong, John, We're gonna

811
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 2: make it through and worry about it when we get

812
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 2: to trial. We mean, don't worry about it. Life continues,

813
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 2: It doesn't stop for anyone. My children are growing. I

814
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 2: watched Jacob's first steps. We're in a visiting room on

815
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: Rikers Island. For me, the first time I seen my

816
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 2: son come to me. He's daddy walking. He's smaller than

817
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 2: the table. I raised my children in prison. That wasn't easy,

818
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: and looking back at it now, I can't even take

819
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: credit for raising my children. Actually, So I go to trial,

820
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: and during the trial I start to learn things. I

821
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: learned that this cop tried to interfere with the robbery

822
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 2: that was taking place because he owned the establishment, and

823
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: I knew that relatively early, as a retired police officer

824
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 2: who owned the gambling place. He also owned the Basket

825
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 2: Robbins one hundred and twenty Fifth Street. He also owned

826
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 2: some print shop and another bar own a lot of

827
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 2: establishments for a police officer or a retired police officer rather,

828
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: and he had this legal gambling spot and somebody came in.

829
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 2: They're saying to shoot him, this light skinned guy with

830
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 2: these braids or these dreads, and he came in. He

831
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 2: tried to place a bet. And this spot is one

832
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty fifth Street between hundred twenty fifth and

833
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 2: one hundred twenty six and eighth Avenue. So this guy

834
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 2: comes in, it's broad daylight, somewhere around noon, and he

835
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: comes in, he places a bet. So when he comes

836
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: into place to bet, the guy's like, yo, listen, we

837
00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: don't do that here. You're a stranger. To get out

838
00:41:59,880 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 2: of it. And he's like, I ain't no stranger, man,

839
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 2: I'm not a cop from the projects. He said, Yeah,

840
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: I'm from the projects. I played my number on the

841
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: east Side. Man, I'm not trying to go down there.

842
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 2: Let me just play my number. Say like all right here.

843
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 2: So he goes to fill out the betting slip. They

844
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: said he filled out the wrong slip. This is Robert

845
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: Jones testifying, right, because I learned everything through testimony. So

846
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 2: now Robert Jones says he filled out the wrong betting slip.

847
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: He takes it, throws it out, and fills out the

848
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,959
Speaker 2: right slip for him. So then he leaves, he said.

849
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 2: Forty five minutes later to an hour later, this guy

850
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: comes back, knocks on the door. The numbers about to

851
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: come out. They're not taking more bets, they said, Yo,

852
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 2: let him in. Let him in. Worry about he was

853
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: here earlier. So he's like, yo, want to place another bet?

854
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 2: He said, Yo, be BET's a closed, but the numbers

855
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,759
Speaker 2: about to come out. Just stick around. Next thing, you know,

856
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 2: another knock comes on the door, and then the doorman's

857
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 2: at the door and he's like, yo, there's another guy here, man.

858
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 2: We can't keep betting these guys there. Next thing, you know,

859
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 2: they said, this light skinned guy pulls out a gun.

860
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 2: He's like, you know what it is? Let my man.

861
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,359
Speaker 2: The guy comes in. You know, they tell everybody get

862
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 2: on the ground, and I don't know what happened, but

863
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: there was an exchange of fire and eventually the officer

864
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 2: or the retired officer wound up dead on the ground.

865
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 3: So the pandemonium inside the bookie joint or the illegal

866
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: numbers joint is total.

867
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: You've got people being tied up.

868
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: You've got people jumping over things, you've got gunshots ringing out,

869
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 3: you've got people fleeing, and in the process, a retired

870
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 3: police officers killed. So here you are at the trial

871
00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 3: and you're being represented by Norman.

872
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: Reamer, Norman and Frank Goulden, and now you've.

873
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: Been in the system for eighteen months.

874
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 2: At that time. Yes, to be precise, I turned myself

875
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,160
Speaker 2: in February second, nineteen ninety eight. I walked into that precinct.

876
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

877
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: choice I made as a freeman. I was on trial

878
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 2: in October of nineteen ninety nine.

879
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 3: Right, so over a year and a half in the

880
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 3: most dangerous prison in New York State, which is Rikers Island.

881
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 2: So the trial, at the trial, this is where I

882
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 2: get the revelation of what occurred. You have several witnesses

883
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: who come and they testified. What people need to realize

884
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: is that everybody that was at this illegal gambling spot

885
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: was engaging in criminal activity. So every single one of

886
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: those people could have been arrested and charged with a

887
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 2: crime where the murder of a retired police officer occurred.

888
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,439
Speaker 2: So it was serious for all of them. They were

889
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: all under pressure, and then you have to think about

890
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 2: the response. You're talking about the center of Harlem in

891
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: broad daylight, a retired officer who worked that area, who

892
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 2: owned the basket Robbins in that area, was shot and killed.

893
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,320
Speaker 2: There has to be a response so that the people

894
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: in that neighborhood, the residents of Harlem, understand that this

895
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: is not tolerable. There has to be a response for

896
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 2: that the people in the residence of Harlem can understand

897
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: that this is still a safe environment. And that's why

898
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 2: there's so much pressure to bring somebody to jail.

899
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 3: And you bring up another interesting point, which is that

900
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 3: everybody involved had a very strong motive. I want to

901
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,240
Speaker 3: identify you because it takes the heat off of them.

902
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's as straightforward as it could be.

903
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: I mean, these are all people who were engaged in

904
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 3: the various activities of various different degrees, and the situation

905
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 3: provided them a very convenient way to make this problem

906
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 3: go away.

907
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 1: And that opportunity was sitting right in front of them.

908
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 3: All they had to do was point to you and

909
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 3: say that's the guy who did it. Now you go

910
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 3: through the trial, all the evidence has been presented, prosecutors

911
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 3: do their thing, the defense does its thing. As we know,

912
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 3: the defense did a very competent job in your case,

913
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 3: but they were hamstrung by the fact that they didn't

914
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 3: have the money to do the proper investigations leading up

915
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 3: to the trial. And the fact is that's where the

916
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 3: real stuff happens, right, That's where you You can't go

917
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 3: into a war with a toy pistol.

918
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: Right.

919
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:08,240
Speaker 3: In fact, that's kind of what happens in these cases

920
00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 3: when you have a defense team that isn't given access

921
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 3: to the evidence, that isn't given the resources or the

922
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 3: time because they're so busy to properly investigate the situation.

923
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 3: And then they're going in there and they're they're doing

924
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,120
Speaker 3: the best job that they can and presenting the best

925
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 3: arguments of the kimp but they don't have the information

926
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 3: that they need that Actually, in your case, had they

927
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 3: been able to do that, it's almost impossible to imagine

928
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 3: that a jury would have convicted you. But that's exactly

929
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 3: what happened, and that's why we're sitting here right now,

930
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 3: and let's talk about that. So the moment comes when

931
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 3: all the evidence has been presented, the jury goes out

932
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 3: and They didn't go out for a short time either.

933
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: They were out for a long time.

934
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: They started getting their instructions Monday, and they started deliberating Tuesday,

935
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: and from Tuesday from ten in the morning to ten

936
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 2: at night, Wednesday from ten in the morning to ten

937
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,880
Speaker 2: at night, Thursday from ten in the morning to ten

938
00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 2: at night, and to Friday, where the judges telling him

939
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: in the evening, if you do not come back with

940
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 2: a verdict, you will be sequested. That means that they

941
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 2: were going to be held and they weren't going to

942
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: be able to go home over the weekend. Probably about

943
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 2: another hour later, an hour and a half later, they

944
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: came back with a verdict and they found me not

945
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 2: guilty of murdering the first degree.

946
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 3: Right, that was the first ruling. Right, so you had

947
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 3: reason to be optimistic. Now all of a sudden, you're like, okay,

948
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 3: so not guilty.

949
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:37,880
Speaker 2: Murder, not guilty in a first degree, and then guilty, guilty, guilty.

950
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 2: I just kept hearing it over and over again. For

951
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 2: every other charge. They were charges of robbery, charges of

952
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: attempt murder, another charge of murder for the same exact

953
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 2: crime that I was just acquitted of.

954
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 5: Right.

955
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 2: The only reason why it was murdering the first degree

956
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 2: was because of the occupation, the former occupation of the

957
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 2: person who got killed, right because he was a police officer.

958
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 2: I was facing the death penalty, but I wasn't facing

959
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: the death penalty at that particular phase. I was actually

960
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,479
Speaker 2: facing the same charge one twenty five twenty seven murder

961
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: in the first degree, natural life in prison, no opportunity

962
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 2: for parole, never to be released again. And that's what

963
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,719
Speaker 2: they acquitted me of. See, but the jury doesn't understand

964
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: what's going on. In fact, through investigations in another film

965
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,360
Speaker 2: that's taking place now, I found out that several jurors

966
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: in that jury room, in that deliberation room, had an

967
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 2: impression that I might be able to go home in

968
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 2: two years as long as they acquitted me at the

969
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,920
Speaker 2: top charge and found me guilty of the lesson, and

970
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: they figured that I was young enough to be able

971
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 2: to bounce back from that and continue with my life.

972
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: I have no idea where they got that impression, because

973
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,720
Speaker 2: two decades have passed and I'm still in prison.

974
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 3: But that's extremely important because now with that information, you

975
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 3: can sort of see into the mind of some of

976
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 3: the jurors where they're sitting there and you have whatever

977
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 3: number of them, two, three are going the guy didn't

978
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 3: do it. The guy didn't do it, and the other

979
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,839
Speaker 3: guys are going, I want to go home, and he's

980
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 3: only going to be in for two years. Just go

981
00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 3: along with us. Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't.

982
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 3: We can't sit here all weekend. I got things to

983
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 3: do with my kids. I got to get back from

984
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 3: whatever the hell they're saying.

985
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: Right, absolutely, and it's obvious that this occurred because it

986
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: took four days to come back with a verdict, So

987
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:20,760
Speaker 2: there was obviously some dissension in that room.

988
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, if it was a clear cut case, they would

989
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 3: have been out of there in an hour. They would

990
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 3: have stayed for lunch. So now you're found guilty on

991
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 3: all these charges, you end up in this unbelievable situation.

992
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 3: And here we are, right now inside the walls of

993
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 3: sing Sing, almost twenty years later. How did you manage

994
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 3: to cope? Where does that spirit come from?

995
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: It was an organic process, so it wasn't a methodical process.

996
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 2: It wasn't thought out. It just kind of occurred. Basically,

997
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 2: how I saw life was once I got out the fog,

998
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 2: Because it took me a few years to get out

999
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,960
Speaker 2: the fog. What I realized is that life is about balance.

1000
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 2: So I'm at a low, the lowest that could possibly

1001
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 2: be to be alive on earth. I consider my circumstances

1002
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 2: being buried alive. I say that a lot. I still

1003
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 2: believe that, and I have this philosophy about time, and

1004
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 2: I said, I've been sent to twenty five of life.

1005
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 2: I wasn't even twenty five years old when that happened,

1006
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: So I was looking at a portion of time that

1007
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 2: I hadn't even lived yet under the circumstances that I

1008
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,879
Speaker 2: was in, and I couldn't see that. So I had

1009
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: to start lying to myself. And I didn't realize they

1010
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 2: were lies then. But twenty years lady, you look back

1011
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: and you say, every year I told myself it would

1012
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: be my last in prison. I did that for nineteen years,

1013
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 2: and I'm still here. So I was lying to myself,

1014
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 2: not knowing. But it was that sense of hope that

1015
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 2: allowed me to rise from the ashes of oppression into

1016
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 2: this resilient spirit that I've acquired. And the balance was

1017
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: about how do I reach beyond the boundaries of prison

1018
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 2: and become a person who's felt outside of those boundaries

1019
00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 2: how can I help others live? And that's where I

1020
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,920
Speaker 2: started to acquire a love for writing, because my letters

1021
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 2: can reach outside the walls. My voice wasn't out yet,

1022
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:13,280
Speaker 2: but I utilize writing, and you can change your life

1023
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: in prison. So instead of just taking time, the way

1024
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 2: I look at it is this. My philosophy personally is

1025
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: that life is precious, There's no doubt about that, and

1026
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 2: time is priceless. And why is time priceless Because our

1027
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: lives as humans are being measured by the time that

1028
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 2: we spend a live on this earth. And if I'm

1029
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 2: going to be spending all this time in prison, where

1030
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: I don't have particular responsibilities to anything except for my

1031
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:44,320
Speaker 2: children and my mother, then I can utilize this time

1032
00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,440
Speaker 2: to learn because I have access to read. So I

1033
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 2: start reading, and I start listening, and I start watching,

1034
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 2: and I start observing, and I start to realize that

1035
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: there's an untapped pool of resources in prison that exist.

1036
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 2: What I'm around is a compounded environment that's actually a

1037
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,920
Speaker 2: microcosm of society. And the majority of the individuals that

1038
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 2: I'm around are the people who took the wrong path

1039
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 2: in life. So by sitting down and speaking to them

1040
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 2: and learning what caused them to come across this path.

1041
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: I've found answers that we can utilize as preventative measures.

1042
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 2: So now I've learned to take the tools that are

1043
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 2: around me and utilize them to spread the word, become

1044
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 2: a voice for the voiceless, and try to create healthy

1045
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 2: communities from the inside out. And that's how these projects

1046
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,880
Speaker 2: started to take place. We have a project called Voices

1047
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 2: from Within right now. Voices from Within are a group

1048
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 2: of individuals or are using the power of their testimony,

1049
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:50,879
Speaker 2: guilty individuals that are using the power of their testimony

1050
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 2: to reach out to the youth and tell them you

1051
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 2: don't want to do this.

1052
00:52:54,960 --> 00:52:57,280
Speaker 3: And I've seen the Voices from Within and I recommend

1053
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 3: anybody check it out. It's so powerful because because there

1054
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 3: are people who shot someone, killed someone, they've they've taken life,

1055
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 3: and they have such an incredible sense of remorse and

1056
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:15,799
Speaker 3: responsibility for their actions, and they're channeling it into a

1057
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 3: need to help others not make those same mistakes. There's

1058
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 3: one that sticks in my mind. The guy who you

1059
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 3: know was in the movie theater right and you know what,

1060
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 3: think a rival gang or something like that started shooting

1061
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 3: and he shot back in the dark and shot an

1062
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:34,440
Speaker 3: innocent person, and you know, you almost put yourself in

1063
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 3: that situation, and it's so vivid when you see him

1064
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,840
Speaker 3: talk about it and the pain that he feels of

1065
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 3: having taken away as he says, the son of somebody,

1066
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 3: or the brother or the it's a very very powerful

1067
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 3: thing and a very positive thing that's turning a negative

1068
00:53:48,880 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 3: invitory positive. Aside from the voices from within, there's a

1069
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 3: number of other things that you've accomplished in prison. Absolutely,

1070
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,960
Speaker 3: why don't you just run through some of the laundry

1071
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 3: list of things?

1072
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 2: For me, these weren't tasks. This was a lifestyle that

1073
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 2: I've adopted. So in running through them, a lot of

1074
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 2: them are vivid. But I never realized how much I've

1075
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 2: actually accomplished until I was tasked with putting this together

1076
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 2: for clemency. It all started with a think tank in

1077
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 2: an inmate organization, and before you knew it, I became

1078
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 2: the community organizer of the facility and I started getting

1079
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 2: involved at anything that's positive or if anybody needed help

1080
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 2: how to put something together. I had this tenacity that

1081
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: was inherent to just be able to put things together,

1082
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 2: and we started doing it. When I came to this facility,

1083
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 2: there were a lot more options available. Sinsing is the

1084
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 2: big house of New York. It's the prison right but

1085
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 2: it has been redubbed into sing Sing University and a

1086
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 2: documentary about Hudson Link that has been on HBO. So

1087
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 2: I started to go to college, right. I started to

1088
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: acquire a degree in behavioral science, and I started to

1089
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,959
Speaker 2: apply what I was learning between that and what I've

1090
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:20,280
Speaker 2: learned on my own and what was happening in organizations.

1091
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,399
Speaker 2: And then I found like minded individuals and we called

1092
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: ourselves the Forgotten Voices, and we said, you know what,

1093
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: we need to reach out to people who can make

1094
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 2: and affect change. So it's teaching children, and we're working

1095
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 2: with the children of incarcerated parents because they're the closest

1096
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 2: ones to us, but we're trying to work with all children,

1097
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: and we're trying to reach out through organizations to help

1098
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 2: children choose better options in life and utilize the experiences

1099
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 2: of those who have choosed bad options in life as

1100
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 2: a platform of experience to learn from, saying you don't

1101
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 2: have to come here to learn this, you can be better.

1102
00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 3: And it's so important because we know that number one

1103
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 3: factor that determines whether a child will end up in

1104
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 3: prison is not education or race or socioeconomic factors. It's

1105
00:56:10,239 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 3: whether or not they've had a parent in prison. So

1106
00:56:12,040 --> 00:56:15,840
Speaker 3: the idea that you're able to interfere and intervene, i

1107
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:19,320
Speaker 3: should say, and help to prevent that from happening, is

1108
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:24,320
Speaker 3: so critical in stopping that pipeline, because those kids deserve.

1109
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 1: As much of a chance as anybody else.

1110
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 2: I think what's important to discuss when we discuss the

1111
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 2: projects and what I've accomplished with these projects, is to

1112
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 2: talk about how it really came to where it is today. Right,

1113
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 2: So what ended up really occurring was in two thousand

1114
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: and two, an individual came into my life. His name

1115
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 2: is Dan Slepian. He's a produci of NBC and he

1116
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 2: did the documentary Conviction. He did the investigation that proves

1117
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 2: that I am an innocent man. And February twenty twelve,

1118
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 2: when that documentary aired, I was already heavily active in

1119
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 2: positive endeavors in prison, but when it aired, so many

1120
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 2: people reached out to me. And I'm talking about young people,

1121
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 2: old people, all kinds of people all over the world,

1122
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 2: but in particular, there were young people reaching out to

1123
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 2: me and telling me that my story changed their lives.

1124
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 2: Some of them were actively involved in the street life

1125
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: and realized that if an innocent man can come to prison,

1126
00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 2: then I'm really getting there and I might be the

1127
00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: next one. And what that did was because in going

1128
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: back again, we're going to go back and forth. In

1129
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:37,400
Speaker 2: two thousand and four, I was the captain of Youth

1130
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 2: Assistance Program in green Haven and I used to deal

1131
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 2: with youth and we give them tours of the prison

1132
00:57:42,680 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 2: and we deal with them on a therapeutic manner. So

1133
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 2: from seeing how film works and seeing that for years

1134
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 2: I've been trying to get my voice outside the boundaries

1135
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 2: of this wall to reach people, to enact change in

1136
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 2: these communities and to change people lives, I realized that

1137
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 2: the media is a tool to be able to get

1138
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 2: us to them. Because the problem we had when I

1139
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 2: was upstate in the Youth Assistance program was the resources

1140
00:58:11,600 --> 00:58:13,720
Speaker 2: to get the children to the prison so that we

1141
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 2: can speak to them. We were having an effect on them,

1142
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 2: but if we only saw them one time, we would

1143
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 2: never see them again because the resources to get them

1144
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 2: up there that one time was hard enough. To get

1145
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 2: them to come back and do a reinforcement project was

1146
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 2: even harder. But I realized that we can bring the

1147
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: youth Assistance program to them by doing this. And in

1148
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 2: the same time, other individuals in prison were reaching out

1149
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 2: to me and saying, I'm innocent too, I need help,

1150
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,000
Speaker 2: I need the type of help that you have. And

1151
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 2: I started passing names on to Dan Slepian right, and

1152
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:50,920
Speaker 2: these individuals have gotten out of prison. Eric Glistens served

1153
00:58:51,000 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 2: seventeen years for a crime he didn't commit. He was

1154
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 2: featured on Dateline, a Bronx tale that was our work

1155
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 2: Johnny Encopier. His case was just dismiss this last week

1156
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: in Manhattan court. Another individual we have, Richard Rosario, a

1157
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 2: very dear and personal friend of mine, as is Eric Glisten,

1158
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,919
Speaker 2: twenty years for a crime in commit shot him down

1159
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 2: in the courts all the way through. Six months later,

1160
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:20,600
Speaker 2: the influence of media and a new prosecutor going into

1161
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,640
Speaker 2: the Bronx became the perfect storm. And now he's a

1162
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,400
Speaker 2: free man. And these are individuals I've been around. I've

1163
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 2: been around so many individuals who have been released over

1164
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 2: this time. This is like a whole nother life that

1165
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 2: I've lived in here, the ability to affect change in others' lives,

1166
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:40,280
Speaker 2: and to see innocent men become free men based upon

1167
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 2: work that we've done together, To see prisoners who have

1168
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 2: taken lives trying to give back to life. To see

1169
00:59:48,280 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 2: all of these things taking place in the most unlikeliest

1170
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: place is amazing. And it's the driving force that keeps

1171
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 2: me vigilant, that keeps me alive, and that keeps me

1172
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 2: resilient to despite my circumstances, despite the devastation and the

1173
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 2: trauma that we've had to go through. Just think about this.

1174
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 2: My children for the first ten years of my incarceration,

1175
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 2: remember one was just a month old, one was three

1176
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 2: years old. They spent five days in school and one

1177
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 2: day in prison because my mother brought them up religiously

1178
01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:24,320
Speaker 2: every week. My mother worked hard as a union organizer,

1179
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 2: five days working, coming up one day bringing two young

1180
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: children to prison. What kind of social life did they have?

1181
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 2: They've experienced severe trauma. Vanessa, her and I were together.

1182
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,240
Speaker 2: We were going to raise our children together. We're not

1183
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 2: together anymore, but I don't blame her. I was facing

1184
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 2: twenty five years in prison. We weren't twenty five years old.

1185
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 2: I left her with an unfair burden of having to

1186
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 2: raise two children in a broken home, a home that

1187
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: was broken by an egregious miscarriage of justice. The trauma

1188
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 2: just continues to spread throughout the community. When an innocent

1189
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 2: man is convicted, he's not the only person who experiences

1190
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 2: the trauma. As a result, the entire community will be

1191
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 2: affected because of the children, because of everything. You ask

1192
01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 2: me what the worst thing that I've experienced in prison.

1193
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 2: The worst thing that I've experienced in prison is that

1194
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 2: my son became a victim to prison. My son came

1195
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 2: to prison because I wasn't there to guide him. Okay,

1196
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 2: he's not innocent, but he if he had me, he

1197
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 2: would have had a different life. And in that sense,

1198
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 2: he was innocent. Whatever he got charged for he did,

1199
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 2: but he shouldn't have had to be in a position

1200
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:39,240
Speaker 2: to be raised without a father and a role model

1201
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 2: in his life to teach him what's right, to guide

1202
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 2: them to see yo, listen, I see you going wrong.

1203
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna let you do that to pull him up.

1204
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 2: I don't get that. I get two three hours of

1205
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 2: his life on a visit every once in a while.

1206
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 2: You think he's given me what he's going through. Nah,

1207
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 2: I'm going on to visit he's telling me I'm fine. Meanwhile,

1208
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,760
Speaker 2: he has to go back and face those demons in

1209
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 2: the Bronx. It's very unfair getting off the negative note

1210
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 2: and going to some of the more positive things. Besides

1211
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,439
Speaker 2: the people that I've been able to touch. The thing

1212
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 2: I'm most proud about throughout this entire ordeal is my mother.

1213
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 2: My mother. She's carried my weight in a devastating way.

1214
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 2: She's the strongest person I know. She's been a father

1215
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 2: to my children. She's been amazing. I don't know anybody

1216
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 2: who has the strength that she has and the driver

1217
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 2: and the determination to carry the burden that was left

1218
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 2: by this miscarriage of justice. My mother is old man.

1219
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: She was young, and she was vibrant. She deserves to

1220
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 2: have me there taken care of. I'm a holy child,

1221
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 2: not been in prison. She's been taking care of me

1222
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 2: since I was born. That's not fair. Forty one years old.

1223
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,520
Speaker 2: She deserves better, and she's been through way too much.

1224
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,720
Speaker 2: Trauma is different for different people. And while I'm in

1225
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 2: the experience, prison has taught me that in order to survive,

1226
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 2: you have to become numb. And I've become numb to

1227
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 2: my environment and the circumstances in it so that I

1228
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: can deal with it. But in some regard, I haven't

1229
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 2: dealt with it yet, and I don't know what I'm

1230
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:22,439
Speaker 2: going to and I don't know what's going to happen

1231
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 2: as a result. But I hope what has happened to

1232
01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 2: others won't happen to me. David Ranter served twenty four

1233
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 2: years for a crime in commit and within a week

1234
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,800
Speaker 2: of his release he had a heart attack. Within that

1235
01:03:32,840 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 2: same year, he had two more. Anthony Yarborough served twenty

1236
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 2: two or twenty three years for a crime and commit

1237
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 2: They said he killed his own sister and mother. DNA

1238
01:03:43,320 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 2: exonerated him. He died within the year of his release.

1239
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 2: Willie Lopez, personal friend of mine, we worked together, got

1240
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 2: out of prison after about twenty two twenty three years,

1241
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 2: and he died within a year of his release. I'm

1242
01:03:57,040 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 2: forty one years old. My father died at forty nine,

1243
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 2: and he wasn't killed. People need to understand how serious

1244
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 2: rawful convictions are. I've been told that eleven million people

1245
01:04:09,880 --> 01:04:14,160
Speaker 2: cycle through the American penal system angrily. Even if we

1246
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 2: were to imagine a ninety nine percent success rate in

1247
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 2: the accuracy of convictions. One percent of that eleven million

1248
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 2: cycle through prison for crimes they don't commit. That's one

1249
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 2: hundred and ten thousand people on an annual basis, And

1250
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,720
Speaker 2: if they come through for a serious offense, think about

1251
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 2: the type of time that they have to face. Fernando

1252
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 2: Bermuda is a personal friend of mine seventeen years. Jeffrey

1253
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 2: Dskovic personal friend of mine sixteen years. David limis the

1254
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 2: person who introduced me to Dan Slepian from the Palladium

1255
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 2: murder fourteen years. Eric Glisson an individual I helped get

1256
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 2: out seventeen years. Richard Rozario an individual I helped get

1257
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 2: out twenty years. Johnny and Capier an individual helped get

1258
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 2: out twenty five years. The list will continue to go

1259
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 2: on the years go into the thousands.

1260
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:13,120
Speaker 3: People are hearing this story. It's an outrageous miscarriage of justice.

1261
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 3: It's got to be fixed. I'm sure people are wondering

1262
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:18,440
Speaker 3: what can they do to help? What can they do

1263
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 3: to help you? In particular? We've talked about things that

1264
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 3: people can do in general on the show. Is there

1265
01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 3: anything they can do to help in this particular situation?

1266
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:30,240
Speaker 3: And as concise a manner as possible, is there something

1267
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 3: that you would have people do to help, as you've

1268
01:05:33,080 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 3: helped so many other people reverse their wrongful conviction.

1269
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 2: I always think that we can't make change, but we

1270
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 2: have demonstrated that we can. And I believe in the

1271
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 2: power of people. I think I need people, particularly the

1272
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:50,640
Speaker 2: listeners of this show, to believe in the power of themselves.

1273
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 2: There's a website being utilized to advocate for my freedom.

1274
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:57,800
Speaker 2: It's called free John adriavealaskis dot org j O n

1275
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 2: ADRII E l A z qu easy. If, however, many

1276
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 2: people listen to this show with to go and get

1277
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 2: ten people to sign that petition, we would have thousands.

1278
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:12,919
Speaker 2: I'm a stamp away from anybody who cares. I'm sitting

1279
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 2: in sing sing correctional facility. My number zero zero a

1280
01:06:16,080 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 2: twenty three oh three reach out. I'll tell you how

1281
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 2: you can help. Go to the website, they'll tell you

1282
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:21,680
Speaker 2: how you can help.

1283
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:23,520
Speaker 3: I think that's the most important thing is go to

1284
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 3: the website. It's free John adrewandlaskuz dot org. And again

1285
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 3: that's j O N A d R I A n

1286
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 3: V E l A z que z and then of

1287
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 3: course dot org. So free John adrewandalaskaz dot org. Go there,

1288
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 3: learn how you can help. John has generously offered to

1289
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 3: have people write to him, and like I said earlier,

1290
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 3: you should expect a letter back that you're going to

1291
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 3: think ulmust have had help from a great novelist or

1292
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 3: a professor of English at an Ivy League university.

1293
01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 1: But he writes beautiful letters.

1294
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 2: You have already somehow reached society because over the time

1295
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 2: of Decemble Christmas, I got a stack of mail about

1296
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:05,120
Speaker 2: this big I appreciate that. Thank you. I want everyone

1297
01:07:05,200 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 2: to know how touched I am by their humanity and

1298
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 2: their opportunity to say, you know what, somebody cares about you.

1299
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:19,000
Speaker 2: And that's some of the energy that I utilize to

1300
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:24,439
Speaker 2: basically catalyze my drive. So I appreciate it. I want

1301
01:07:24,480 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 2: people to be patient. I've been working on a petition

1302
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 2: for clemency. I've been working on my appeal, but I

1303
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:33,360
Speaker 2: will try to get back to everyone, and upon my release,

1304
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:37,280
Speaker 2: I guarantee that I'll be available somewhere on social media

1305
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 2: and we'll get to everyone.

1306
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, we'll have a big party, but everybody's going to

1307
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 3: have to sign some petitions to get in, that's for sure.

1308
01:07:43,640 --> 01:07:45,840
Speaker 1: JJ I want to thank you for being on the show.

1309
01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,640
Speaker 2: I want to thank Revolver Productions for having me. I

1310
01:07:48,680 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 2: want to thank you Jason for having me and for

1311
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 2: doing everything that you have. You're an amazing individual. Thank you.

1312
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 3: You've been listening to the first episode of Wrongful Conviction

1313
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 3: Behind Bar, and it won't be the last. I think

1314
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 3: it's very important that we bring these stories to light

1315
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 3: from inside a maximum security prison, in this case Sing Sing.

1316
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 3: I want to thank the Superintendent Capra for allowing us

1317
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:17,920
Speaker 3: to film with JJ inside the prison walls. And again

1318
01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 3: our guest today, John Adrian Velasquez. John, I'm looking forward

1319
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 3: to seeing you as I saw Felipe the other day

1320
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 3: on the outside with your family, and it's going to

1321
01:08:27,600 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 3: happen because we're not going to give up until it does.

1322
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 5: Thank you, don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

1323
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:46,160
Speaker 5: Wherever you get your podcasts.

1324
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:46,519
Speaker 1: It really helps.

1325
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 3: And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project and

1326
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:52,559
Speaker 3: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

1327
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 3: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

1328
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:59,640
Speaker 3: to Innocenceproject dot orgorg to learn how to donate and

1329
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 3: get it I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

1330
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 3: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

1331
01:09:05,640 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 3: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

1332
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:12,280
Speaker 3: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

1333
01:09:12,320 --> 01:09:16,639
Speaker 3: Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

1334
01:09:16,840 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 3: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

1335
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:23,360
Speaker 3: with Signal Company Number one