1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know, a production of I 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh. 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: There's Chuck, Dragon Slayer Bryant and well that's it. It's 4 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: just the two of us. We can make it if 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: we try, Chuck, just the two of us, dragons and 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: us and the great Bill Weathers? Was that Bill with? 7 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: You didn't say that this straight say? We just had 8 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: the same conversation like two months ago. I'm not doing 9 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: it again. Oh about Bill Withers. Yeah, I didn't realize 10 00:00:41,000 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: that that was a Bill Withers song. It was a 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: good song. Lean on Me though, Man is just I 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: cannot take it. Grandma's bad? What does that is that 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: a Bill Withers? I did not know that. It's good. 14 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: He's He's great. And we probably had this exact same conversation. 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if we had that one or not. 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: But you know who else I like, Um, who's a 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: little bit like Bill Wether's not quite as cool. I 18 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: guess if you're like a cool person. But um, George 19 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: Benson was amazing and still is. I think he's still around. 20 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: Do you ever listen to his stuff? Yeah? But now 21 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: I'm realized, I uh maybe I should just not correct 22 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: myself and let people be send in a bunch of emails. 23 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: Oh I love that. I love that. And when we 24 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: get a million of the same emails, it's Grandma's hands. 25 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: I was getting it. John Denver's Grandma's feather bed kind 26 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: of just was in the ether. So as we just 27 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: talked about John Denver about Grandma's bad follow up, to 28 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: use me up. So dragons, Yeah, let's talk about dragons. 29 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: Let's have a pleasant conversation about dragons, shall we chuck? Yeah, 30 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: dragons aren't real. And you'll notice by the title of 31 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: this episode, which is dragons colon as real as mermaids. 32 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: And it's funny because I think the week before this 33 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: comes out, Mermaids is a is our pick for the selects, 34 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 1: the select episode, so it aligns perfectly. That is perfect. 35 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: The dragons aren't real. Well, okay, I please stop saying 36 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: that because you're crushing my dreams. Sorry. Um So, when 37 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,519 Speaker 1: we when we talk about dragons, we have to stay 38 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: right here at the outset that there's a lot of 39 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: different kinds of dragons. Um And typically when you think 40 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: of like the the flying winged, usually long, maybe scaly, 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: fire breathing fire breathing dragon, often with a long kind 42 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: of serpentine tail. Sometimes it's even um pointy like the devil, 43 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: which will see why. Um that's considered a Western dragon, UM, 44 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: and that is its own thing that kind of evolved 45 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 1: from a number of different traditions. But there's also the 46 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: Asian dragon UM, which you know has variations among different 47 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,640 Speaker 1: Asian countries, but it's generally seems to be kind of 48 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: the same ancient Chinese thing. UM. That's a totally different thing, 49 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: and it evolved on its own in isolation as well. 50 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 1: And so UM. Because you've got these different traditions of 51 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: dragons that seem fairly similar in a lot of ways, 52 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: there's a lot of people out there who say, wow, 53 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: this is astounding. Every culture in the world has some 54 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: sort of tradition of dragons, and that's kind of true. 55 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: But at the at the UM, like throughout this episode, 56 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: we'll see, UM, that's not really accurate like that. Nowadays 57 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: it seems that way because we have overlaid the idea 58 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: of dragons over everything. But if you really kind of 59 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: dig into the past and and look into the nuance 60 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: of some of these things that we term dragons, they're 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: very different. So it's a lot more accurate to say that, 62 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 1: like every culture in the world has mythical beasts, some 63 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: of which share a lot in common with our modern 64 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: conception of dragon. And that's probably where our modern conception 65 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: of dragons came from, was all these different ideas of 66 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: it in the ancient past. Yeah, there's a book called 67 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: An Instinct for Dragons written by an anthropologist named David E. 68 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 1: Jones about dragons and and dragons throughout cultures and across cultures. 69 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: And there's the theory he's got going, which is humans 70 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: evolved in primates. H evolved with the fear of three 71 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: predators basically um snakes, cats which are big cats, house cats, 72 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: and eagles, and that a dragon. It sort of makes 73 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: sense that every culture sort of has something like a dragon, 74 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: because in folklore and myth and storytelling, you might combine 75 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: the three scariest things into one super scary thing, and 76 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: that is a dragon. Right, And you might say, like, well, 77 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: wait a minute, Like I think eagles are kind of cool. 78 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: I'm not at all scared. Number one, have you ever 79 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: been around an eagle and it was loose, but you'd 80 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 1: be kind of scared of it? Because those talents are serious, 81 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: or one that dive bond you, I think exactly more 82 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 1: to the point though, or more toys, I should say, Um, 83 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: David Jones point, um, that this would be this fear, 84 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 1: this innate fear that humans have, would be based much 85 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: more deeply in our evolutionary past when we were monkeys 86 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: and you actually could be killed by certain kinds of 87 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:26,839 Speaker 1: eagles like the harpy eagle. Remember we talked about the 88 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: harpy eagle and the sloth episode. Because they can mess 89 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: a sloth up, they can mess a monkey up too. 90 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: So this guy's premises, like, we have these ancient fears 91 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: of these things, and as we evolved and became humans 92 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: that started telling each other's stories, these things combined, like 93 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: you were saying, into this one fierce mythological monster, which 94 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: was basically the the sum of all of our most 95 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: primal fears. Yeah. And then of course, if you look 96 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:57,360 Speaker 1: at ancient cultures, they always had sort of mythical stories 97 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: in folklore to explain you know, everything from weather phenomenon 98 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: to things like volcanoes. Uh. And if they happened upon 99 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 1: maybe dinosaur bones or whale bones, then a story might 100 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: go along with that. To explain it away, like you know, 101 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: this was clearly some huge lizard like creature or maybe 102 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: a snake like creature, and there was probably a story 103 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: around it and why they should fear it or usually 104 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: some sort of a sacrifice that they needed to make, um, 105 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: you know, sort of in lock step with those stories. 106 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: But that's just sort of another theory on maybe how 107 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: the dragon might have come about as far as folklore goes. 108 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: One of the most interesting theories that I saw, and 109 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: we should say, no one has a widely accepted answer 110 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: for this, which I love, is always um, but that 111 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: it was the b that the that the description um 112 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 1: often um in ancient cultures they used to use like 113 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: riddles and exaggeration and metaphor to um discuss and and 114 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: talk about and describe actual things. And that the the 115 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: b um a description of a b or I should say, 116 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: a swarm of a bee is what actually became the 117 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: dragon in in mythology. And at first it just like 118 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: that doesn't doesn't make any sense at all, But some 119 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: of the points of these people made. There was a 120 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: journal article in it um and I think like a 121 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: journal on Tolkien studies or something like that. But they 122 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: say that um, a be swarm moving together. It doesn't 123 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: necessarily resemble or dragon, but it makes a lot more 124 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: sense along those lines than it doesn't when you're talking 125 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: about an individual b exactly it can do. It can 126 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: point an air, It can make an arrow to point 127 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: a direction, you know, where somebody's hiding, that kind of thing. Um. 128 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: And then another one is that the fire, the idea 129 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: of of dragon breathing fire is a metaphor for the 130 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: feeling of like your skin burning from a be sting 131 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: or the intense pain. And then lastly um in the 132 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: Western tradition, a lot of dragons protect like mounds of 133 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: gold or treasure, and that this is a metaphor for 134 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: honey and gold, like the honeycombs that ancient people would 135 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: have basically considered gold not just you know, um food, 136 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: but also it was used as medicine as well. So 137 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: if you kind of put all it together, it's it 138 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: seems like a pretty interesting theory. At least it makes 139 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: a lot more sense than a bee, you know, when 140 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: you really kind of dig into it, Yeah, totally. The 141 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: word itself is um. Well, you can look back to 142 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: the Iliad when Homer wrote about the d R. A. K. 143 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: O n uh. The drecon, which supposedly is the first 144 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: known use of the word uh in ancient Greek, is 145 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: sort of has some uh confusing etymology behind it, but 146 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: basically Homer uses that word to describe snakes, like like 147 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: unequivocally yeah, and not you know, huge, flying, fire breathing snakes, 148 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: but just snakes. Yeah. Yeah. He even says, no, I'm 149 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: just talking about snakes, everybody, not dragons. To get ahead 150 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: of yourself, These are snakes, and I mean they say that, 151 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: like he points out that he's talking about snakes because 152 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: he even says um a chimera, which is um uh 153 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: I think ahead of a lion, the goat body, a 154 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: serpent tail, and bats wings. He even says the serpent 155 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: tail that the back portion of the chimera is a dragon. 156 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 1: So he's talking about just regular old snakes for sure. Yeah. 157 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: And other writers and other classical stories did the same thing, 158 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: whether it was uh, dracontis or draconis, using all these 159 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: words sort of interchangeably with other words for snake. But 160 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: then we go to the history of not the history 161 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 1: but just history of animals, and that's the first sort 162 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: of scientific take on the draccone which is an enemy 163 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: of the eagle because uh, an eagle as a bird 164 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: of prey would eat snakes obviously, and different people got 165 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: a little more specific and later writing system what kind 166 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: of snake, but it's still just snakes. Yeah. So over time, 167 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: like that's that's where the word dragon came from, was 168 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 1: to use the it was a word for snake, that's it. 169 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: And then over time as people, um started to exaggerate. 170 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: Here they're conflate different types of snakes and different behaviors 171 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: that aren't found in snakes, but saying that they were, 172 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: and they all kind of put that under the umbrella 173 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: word for snakes. Dragon. Um, it seems like the legend 174 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: or the myth, the mythical version of dragons started to 175 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: kind of plump up and grow. Yeah, and this, um, 176 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: this is a point ed the grabster put this together, 177 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: put this together for us. But need points out something 178 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: I kind of never really considered back in the day. 179 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: In the classical period, writers were writers. There weren't like, hey, 180 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to write h only about you know, natural history, 181 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: and I'm only gonna write fiction and myth and storytelling 182 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: like writers just wrote. So there were people that wrote 183 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: natural history to homes and also myth and storytelling legends, 184 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: and so a lot of this stuff could get kind 185 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: of mixed up and confused. Exaggerated mistranslation is a huge, 186 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: huge deal. Oh yeah, and a lot of this is 187 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: sort of where the sort of the myth of the 188 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: dragon came from. I just think of like some writer 189 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: getting confused what they were working on that day, and 190 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: now we have the myth of dragons. You know, it's like, 191 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 1: was this real or not? I can't remember? Who cares? 192 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: So um yeah, like you you really hit upon something 193 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: really important. Mistranslations are at a different way to put 194 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: his lazy translation have really kind of changed um our 195 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: idea of what people were talking about in the ancient world. 196 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 1: And I can't imagine how much nuance and understanding has 197 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 1: been lost and how probably dumb in a lot of 198 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: ways ancient people seemed compared to how they actually were 199 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: because of this tradition of like, um, p, poor translation 200 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: that was passed down over the year people. Yeah, that's 201 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: very cute. And the reason why it's kind of lazy 202 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: translation is it seems like anybody who came across an 203 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: ancient text or a text in another language, um, who's 204 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 1: translating something into English. Um, and they were seemed to 205 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: be describing anything even remotely dragon like, any mythical beast, 206 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: anything that might have wings, anything with a serpent tail, 207 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: anything that breathe fire, boop, dragon, it's a dragon. And 208 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: then now those of us who have a certain compartmentalized 209 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: idea of what a dragon is, everything was a dragon. 210 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: And now we reached that point where it's like, this 211 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: is how we got this idea that every culture has dragons. No, 212 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: we just kind of lazily translated what other cultures we're 213 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,760 Speaker 1: talking about into dragons along the way, right. I think 214 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: that is a great first act. Thank you, thank you. 215 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: I'm bowing, I'm throwing roses at your feet. Thank you. 216 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: And uh, we're gonna take a little break and Rooney 217 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: and be right back. So the rose petals I sent 218 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 1: you arrived in time, just in time. Thank you for 219 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: throwing them and not saving them for something else. I 220 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: also realized I just went on ned Flanders with the 221 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: break of Rooney. I've never said that before in my life. 222 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: I liked it though. It was refreshing. We need that 223 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: kind of wet behind the ears, you know, wholesomeness right now. Chuck, Yeah, 224 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 1: in your fourteen No, not just us, I mean the world. Okay, 225 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, up up with Flanders? Yeah, up with Flanders. 226 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: That's right. So my favorite thing always about Flanders is 227 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: when he would be really buff, like every time he 228 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: shirt good sexy Flanders. I know, it's hilarious. He he 229 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: ascribed it to a healthy dose of vitamin Church. Oh man, 230 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: I love it all. Right. Where were we here? Giants snakes, Yeah, 231 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: we talked about them. We're talking about miss translations were 232 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,480 Speaker 1: a big problem, and I think a good place to 233 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: start with that is back in Sumeria. Yeah, the Sumerian 234 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: legends wrote about something called the use um u s 235 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: u m um also called dragons or you know, at 236 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: least referred to as dragons now. And these were kind 237 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: of like you said at the beginning, these were just 238 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: sometimes just large monsters, large scary things and not necessarily 239 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: a dragon, but was sort of just translated as dragon. Yeah, 240 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: and I should say sumer not Humeria. But um, they 241 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: they were. These were like their gods that they were 242 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: talking about. These were, you know, the like the god 243 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 1: of the goddess of water who gave birth to the world. 244 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: Like they had this incredibly detailed cosmology that explained, you know, 245 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: where they came from, where the world came from, where 246 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: the sun came from. Um, and we along the way 247 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: translated that to dragons. You know. So luckily there are 248 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: scholars who have learned to speak Acadian. I guess the 249 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: world's oldest UM spoken language A K K A d 250 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: I An not the the Canadian group that the Cajuns 251 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: come from. This is different, um. But the so we 252 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: understand now that there's much more nuance, much more detailed 253 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 1: to it. But I think the upshot of this is 254 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: that there there were conceptions of like fire breathing and 255 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: like flying serpents and like potentially malicious, malevolent, evil mythical 256 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: beasts that would resemble kind of what we would understand 257 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: as a dragon dating back thousands of years. Yeah, and 258 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: you know, this course goes straight to the Bible as well. 259 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: In Revelations, UM, there's a lot of talk about the archangels, 260 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 1: archangels battling a great dragon. Uh. In this case, the 261 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: dragon is Satan. But again this is sort of a translation, 262 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 1: like Satan was always sort of the serpent, at least 263 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: in Genesis, at first appeared as a serpent, and so 264 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: in the end, Satan is also a serpent, but spelled 265 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, with the d r A k O n 266 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: like the ancient Greek. But yeah, but there's you know, 267 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean not in the King James version and stuff 268 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: like that, obviously, but again you know pre translation uh 269 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: and you know, there were uh sort of renderings of 270 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: this of the big war for heaven and this is 271 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 1: when we see, you know it kind of what we 272 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: would see later on, which is metaphor for good versus 273 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: evil in a big battle. So that's what William Blake's 274 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: Paradise Lost is about, right, I've never read it. I 275 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: haven't either, I'm just familiar with it from that movie 276 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: Red Dragon. Okay, about the silence of the Lamb's prequel, 277 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, um, he's like, do you see you 278 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: remember when Ray finds has got poor Philip seymore often 279 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: strapped to that wheelchair that I had spoiler coming. I 280 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: didn't love that movie. It was okay, but that was 281 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: that shot of that burning wheelchair and body going down 282 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: the parking deck is one of the most sort of 283 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,239 Speaker 1: chilling images I've seen in movies. I know. The thing 284 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: that chills me about it though, is it's an antique 285 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: wicker wheelchair, which is the scariest thing I've ever seen 286 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: in my life. I hate those You don't like this, 287 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: huh No, I think we just talked about it recently, 288 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: and I every for the rest of my life, I 289 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: will be creeped out by those things. I'm gonna get 290 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: you one slide whistle this Christmas. Next Christmas, you're just 291 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: gonna get an ancient quicker wheelchair. And I don't want 292 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: I don't want to be wasteful, so I won't throw 293 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: it away and I'll just have to live among it. 294 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: It's gonna be terrible, like I'll never get used to 295 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: it either. You could make a uh life size Chuck dummy, 296 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: put it in there and set it on fire and 297 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: roll it down to parking. Oh I wouldn't do that. 298 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: I'd make a life size version of Chuck and just 299 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: talk to you and be like, listen, I got a 300 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: lot of stuff to say to you that's even creepier. 301 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: But and you're gonna sit there and listen to it. 302 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 1: I'll be wearing nothing but an apron, just like a 303 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: real doll with a big fake beard. Oh man, Okay, 304 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: so yeah, good versus Evil is sort of how a 305 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: lot of these um tales and folklore play out and 306 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: also incorporating stuff that you would see time and time 307 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 1: again in literature later on, Like there's a dragon that 308 00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: lives out by itself near a village, and it's a greedy, 309 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: eventful dragon, and we need to a piece of dragon 310 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: with sacrifice once a year or else it will come 311 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: down and like rain fire upon everyone. Yeah. So, um, 312 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: all of this stuff, like this idea, this western dragon 313 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: that you're describing, like that's taken from like um Bao Wolf. 314 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,479 Speaker 1: I believe that the dragon that killed bo Wolf in 315 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: the I always thought it was a Norse legend, but 316 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: apparently it's English, Old English. It's just set in Um 317 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: in the Netherlands, or in Scandinavia in the north, I think, 318 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: I think somewhere. I don't remember exactly where it sat. 319 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 1: It's just set there. It's not written by them. Um. 320 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: But that like that dragon was malevolent, and I believe 321 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 1: it was guarding treasure. I think the reason it went 322 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 1: berserk and Beowulf had to kill it was because somebody 323 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: stole one of its golden goblets a k. A honey, 324 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: because they're really talking about a b But so you 325 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: have an idea of a a greedy, murderous dragon that 326 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: protects treasure like that comes from an ancient tradition, but 327 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: that's a pretty pretty standard feature of dragons. You were saying, Yeah, 328 00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: so all this is going on for many, many, many years. 329 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: Finally the rubber kind of meets the road as far 330 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: as Western dragons are concerned. With the legend of St. 331 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: George Um, who was a Christian saint, a real Christian saint, 332 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: maybe a real person who may have been a Roman 333 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: soldier who was you know, tortured and killed for converting 334 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: Pagans to Christianity. This is sort of fourth century a 335 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: d and because of stories getting passed around like a 336 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: game of telephone. Um the actual first name of that 337 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: story when it was told with Saint Theodore, but it 338 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: was really St. George. So I saw that they're both 339 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: possibly known as dragon slaying saints. Okay, it's not necessarily 340 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: like George took that from theater. They're both known for 341 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: having slain a dragon. But what's interesting is if you 342 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 1: see um St. Theodore depicted with his dragon, it's very 343 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:03,560 Speaker 1: clearly a crocodile, and the the the origin story um 344 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: of either one, but particularly St. George is that there 345 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: is a town in modern day Turkey or possibly Palestine, 346 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: I'm short, but in what would have been called Anatolia 347 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: back then um where they had the spring. Like this 348 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: town got their water from the spring, and it was 349 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: guarded by a giant, massive crocodile, and that the townspeople 350 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: would sacrifice as sheep to sometimes to a day, basically 351 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,159 Speaker 1: to distract the crocodile so they could go get the 352 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: water and then get out of there. And then they 353 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: ran out of sheep, so they said, well, what's what 354 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: comes after sheep? How about maidens? So they started throwing maidens, 355 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: sacrificing maidens literally throwing them to the crocodile to to 356 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: distract it so they could get the water. And eventually 357 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: they came upon the king's daughter. They drew straws to 358 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: see what maiden was good would go next, and St. 359 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 1: George apparently arrived just in time to slay the dragon 360 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: a k a. The crocodile. But that that that's this idea, 361 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: that that's where this story of somebody slaying a dragon 362 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: could have been rooted in reality, that over the years, 363 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,200 Speaker 1: this massive crocodile, which was so fearsome and so murderous 364 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,120 Speaker 1: and killed so many people, was converted into a dragon 365 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: over the years, and so St. George slew the dragon, 366 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: and that's where that came from. And that was a 367 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: real crocodile that lived by a real spring. Right. That's 368 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: pretty cool. Yeah, I thought so too. I'd love it 369 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: when something that seems totally legendary had was rooted in 370 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:30,920 Speaker 1: some sort of fact. It's just people in blished or 371 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: exaggerated over time totally. If you want to go with 372 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: the sort of real great first image of what we 373 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: think of as a Western dragon, you can go to 374 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: twelve sixty eight D in an illustration in a medieval 375 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 1: beastiary called MS. Harley. Uh, great title. I think Ed 376 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: said it was probably a catalog designation. Yeah, I think 377 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: the real title is peral this is theological miscellany. Yeah, 378 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 1: which is that's an actual great title. Yeah. I like MS. Harley. 379 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,040 Speaker 1: It's it's cool looking. Though. You can if you're near 380 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: a laptop or something, you can look this thing up 381 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: and it is you know, you look at it and 382 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: this is exactly what you think of as something from 383 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: like Lord of the Rings or Game of Thrones or whatever. Yeah, 384 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: it's like it's a dragon. It's how a scene starts, 385 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, um so so oh sorry, I see 386 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: what you're saying, Like the dragon that that shows up 387 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 1: in their specifically the red one. Well, no, I just 388 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: mean sort of the dragon that we all think of 389 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: in in sort of literature and folklore, like this is 390 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: clearly that. Yeah, and supposedly it's the first one from 391 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 1: around twelve sixty Did you say that? Yeah? So um 392 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,719 Speaker 1: and yeah, when you see it, you're like, yes, this 393 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 1: is probably the basis of the Western Dragon as we 394 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 1: understand it. Um, and it would have spread to Europe, 395 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,239 Speaker 1: which it did. I think that was English. Um. It 396 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: was by a guy named William Perrault, and I believe 397 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,479 Speaker 1: he was English. So it would spread from England to 398 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: the rest of Europe, and that that kind of um 399 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: set the stage for at least the visual version of 400 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: the Western Dragon from that point on. Thanks to England Dan. Right, 401 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: I think we said English Dan. It's England Dan. Oh? 402 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: Is it English Dan? Makes way more sense? Yeah, England 403 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: Dan's a little weird. Yeah, but hey, England Dan was 404 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 1: a little weird. But your nickname is America Josh. Sure, 405 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: how about all American Josh? Uh? Should we take a 406 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: break now and talk about Asian dragons. Yeah, let's all right. 407 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: We'll be right back with a kinder, gentler dragon right 408 00:24:38,760 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: after this. Okay, So, Chuck, you mentioned something, you said, kinder, 409 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: gentler dragon. It's true, like Western dragons are generally in 410 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: the tradition murderous, greedy, wealth hoarding jerks boo who maybe 411 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: pure evil personified in Asian dragon, which everybody is seen 412 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: at the very least in like a photo of a 413 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: street parade or in some sort of um uh like 414 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: a Chinese silk screen or something like that. Um. An 415 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 1: Asian dragon is typically much more benevolent than that um 416 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: and usually is associated with rain uh water, that kind 417 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: of thing. And so when you see those like a 418 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: dragon being paraded around where it's a bunch of people 419 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: like under like a dragon costume, that's actually based on 420 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: a very ancient um ray dance, essentially a ceremony to 421 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: invoke rain, because these dragons were associated with that. Yeah, 422 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,159 Speaker 1: and this is far far, far older than in the West. 423 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: Thinking about six thousand b C. There were people in 424 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: China that were carving little dragon jade figurines, and there 425 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: was art back then, I think as far back as 426 00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: four b C. Where it's clearly some kind of dragon UM, 427 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: but again supposedly independent from the sort of u evolution 428 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: of the western dragon. Yeah, and so UM all of 429 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: this was based on some of the early like Chinese religion, 430 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: UM was based on animism, and not just Chinese, but 431 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: a lot of ancient religions are based on animism, where 432 00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: like an inanimate object is um is a symbolic of 433 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: like a larger thing or like a god, like the 434 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: god of wind or the god of rain. And so 435 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: these ancient dragons were considered gods of rain, and there 436 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: were different um. There's different types, there's different kinds. But again, 437 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: like the fact that they are generally um beneficial humankind 438 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: rather than harmful, I think is is it's it's interesting, 439 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: It's I wonder what that says about the two different 440 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,920 Speaker 1: cultures if anything. You know that dragons are harmful and 441 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: they're gonna kill you, and they're gonna steal all your gold, 442 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: or they're gonna bring the rain that's going to grow 443 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 1: the food that saves your family. You know, where did 444 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: that diverge or did they just they just don't have 445 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: anything to do with one another. Yeah, that's interesting. UM 446 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: sort of a side note, I'm playing. I've been playing 447 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: video games some during the pandemic, which I'm usually not 448 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: a big gamer, but I've been playing a game lately 449 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: called Ghosts of uh Sushima, which is uh you play 450 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: a Samurai warrior that's sort of traveling through Japan and 451 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,560 Speaker 1: ancient times. And it's really interesting to compare that to 452 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,160 Speaker 1: like the analog for the West would be like Red 453 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: Dead Redemption in the Old West with gun slingers, and 454 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: it's just such a different game design and everything. It's 455 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: the one in Japan is ur The Ghost of Seshima 456 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 1: is so peaceful. It's one of the most beautiful games 457 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 1: I've ever seen. And instead of like a map telling 458 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: you where to go, you press a button and the 459 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: wind guides you. And if you see a fox, you 460 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: follow the fox up to a shrine and you uh 461 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: and you pay your respects to the shrine, and it 462 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't really get you much other than it's not 463 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: like you get like a million points or something for 464 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: doing that. It's just it seems like they really tried 465 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: to honor Japanese traditions, and so much of this game 466 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: and the motivations are always pure, like even when you're 467 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: slicing guys up with your katana. It's because you're rescuing, 468 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, some old lady in a village, whereas the 469 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: other game is just like, hey, just go and just 470 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: pillage and murder and do awful things. Yeah, it's really interesting. 471 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: I'm much more enjoying this game. Well, you said something 472 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: that that struck a memory and me about dragons. And 473 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: there's a commonality between um Asian dragons, particularly Chinese dragons, 474 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: which are called long or long l U n g Um, 475 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: and Western dragons, and typically they live in isolated areas 476 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: away from everybody, and in Asia, the Chinese dragons usually 477 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: live in old, ruined temples like that's where you'll find 478 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: them dwelling. How interesting exactly so are their dragons in 479 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: that game? Not yet, but now I'm kind of wondering. 480 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, look at it's pretty early because I did 481 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: run across the Japanese type of dragon that um that 482 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: is malevolent, not not very nice. I don't remember the 483 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: name of it, so I guess beyond the lookout for 484 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: all of them. Interesting. Yeah, so far, there's nothing supernatural. 485 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: It's uh mongols that are the bad guys. I got 486 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: you and then there's another type of Japanese dragon I 487 00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: ran across called Ryu, and this one actually bears a 488 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 1: lot in common to the intelligent Western dragon, and that 489 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 1: it um writes poetry. Yeah, it uses um shed scales 490 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:10,360 Speaker 1: from its belly his paper and you and um. I 491 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: don't know what it uses for ink, but I think 492 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: it uses its tail as a pin and quill poetry. Yeah. Yeah, 493 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: it's super super nice except for that one thing. Yeah, 494 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 1: we could just get it some ink. Right, There's something 495 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: else I should think people should look up here if 496 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: you're looking up images, which is um. An artist named 497 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,800 Speaker 1: chen Wrong g E n R O n g very 498 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: famous painter in Asia of Dragons, and this was like 499 00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: thirteenth century a d. And if you look up some 500 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: of the stuff, it's really really neat looking. Yeah. About 501 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: the same time as um uh paraldis is theological miscellany 502 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: was was done with that first Western dragon. Chen wrong 503 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: was making these mate just amazing works of art. I 504 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 1: think one of them is in the Boston Museum of 505 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: Fine Art. It's called like nine Ragons or something, but 506 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: it was um. It reminded me of the artwork in 507 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: the original Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark series. 508 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 1: I never read that they do that artwork and there 509 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: is just amazing, but it has like all these weird 510 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: kind of splotchy clouds of ink and chin chin wrong 511 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: makes use of that as well. It's it's really kind 512 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: of startling how how closely that to resemble. I wonder 513 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 1: if the artist from Scary Stories of Telling the Dark 514 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 1: was inspired by that in some way. Yeah, nothing wrong 515 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: with that. No, No, that's not ripping off at all. 516 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: I don't know why I would even say that. Why 517 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: would you even bring ripping off? Yeah, So we should 518 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 1: probably talk about famous dragons at this point, because we've 519 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: thrown a couple out, like the one from BeO Wolf, 520 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: who apparently doesn't even have a name. Yeah. I mean, 521 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,719 Speaker 1: you know, there are so many stories in literature, uh 522 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: and movies obvious lee that have had dragons throughout the years. 523 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: Certainly Tolkien uh in the mid nineteen thirties when he 524 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 1: wrote The Hobbit Um this was a really evil dragon 525 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: and um, you know, drawn from that Western sort of 526 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: influence of evil dragons. Yeah, s m A U g 527 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: Um Dungeons and dragons in the seventies was a very 528 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: big um sort of you don't know how much dragons 529 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 1: had fallen out of the sort of pop culture I 530 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: but it really brought it back in if it did 531 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: fall out, because in the game there were different kinds 532 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: of dragons. There were a couple of different sets who 533 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,240 Speaker 1: were indicated by different colors red, green, black, white, and blue. 534 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: I think we're evil. And then there were the bronze, brass, silver, 535 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 1: and gold, which were for the most part good and 536 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: they all had different things they could do in different 537 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: temperaments and UM. Something that we talked a little bit 538 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 1: about is the fire breathing thing they were. There are 539 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,720 Speaker 1: lots of different theories as to how that came about, 540 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,239 Speaker 1: maybe the tide of Satan with fire UM. Early on 541 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,479 Speaker 1: when they were just serpents, perhaps they were drawn spitting 542 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: venom and that could have looked like fire. Yeah, that 543 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: makes sense, But there's always some sort of breath emitting 544 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: weapon going on. It seems like, Yeah, over time it's 545 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 1: translated into UM. I think like the white dragon in 546 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons blue like basically ice like cold um. 547 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: Some dragons uh blue out electricity UM, which you would 548 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: think would be kind of new, But apparently the Leviathan, 549 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: which is mentioned in the Bible is a sea dragon 550 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: basically supposedly spit electricity out. Um. But there's something weird 551 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: coming out of the dragon's mouth that's probably going to 552 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: kill you. Yeah, you don't want to you don't want 553 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: to test that no. Um. And we were saying also 554 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,040 Speaker 1: that the first visual depiction of dragon shows up in 555 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: in uh Harley. Um. The first mention of the dragon, 556 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: and like a story, like a fictitious story, supposedly comes 557 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: in Spencer Edmunds The Fairy Queen. Oh yeah yeah. And 558 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: then it shows up after that a little while later 559 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: and um, Marie Catherine Dull Noise the Green Serpent, and 560 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: then it just kind of takes off from there. You know, 561 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: you have a connection to Pete Dragon. I do. My 562 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 1: friend Toby was a producer on Pete Dragon. Yeah, for 563 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: the remake obviously, yes, um, which was really really good 564 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: and and touching and tear jerking a little bit. I 565 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,399 Speaker 1: never saw the remake. I need to check that out. 566 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: It's it's very good. They did a really good job 567 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: with it. But you know, if you haven't seen the 568 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: movie Rain of Fire, just stop what you're doing and 569 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 1: watch that, because that is the king Daddy of all 570 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: dragon movies. I have not seen that? Do we? Should 571 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,080 Speaker 1: we pause, come back and finish the episode after. It's great. 572 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,959 Speaker 1: It's one of those movies, is that. Um. I don't 573 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: know how well it did at the box office. I 574 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: don't think super well. But it's one of those that 575 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: has really become sort of a cult classic since then 576 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: with McConaughey and Christian Bale. It's so over the top 577 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: and just so fun. Uh, it's really really good. So 578 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: it's kind of like the Pacific Room of Dragon movies. Yeah, 579 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: or Starship Troopers of Dragon movies. Oh man, that's another 580 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: great movie. Um. There's also Puff the Magic Dragon. Don't 581 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: forget him God, the saddest song of all time. My 582 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: mom taught my daughter that it's the worst. Who. Yeah, 583 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 1: it has nothing to do with pot so just you know, 584 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: forget that hippie. It's just sad. It is a very 585 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: sad one. And then also I think our younger UM 586 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: listeners would be really mad if we didn't mention Dragon 587 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: ball Z right, And there's you know, I didn't watch 588 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: Game of Thrones, but I know there was there were 589 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: a little trained dragons in that one that grew. Yeah, 590 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,960 Speaker 1: and Chuck is just so satisfying to look over all 591 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: of the different depictions of dragons that you see in 592 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 1: all the differences and all the similarities, and realized that 593 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 1: all of them are talking about bees. Yeah you know. Yeah. 594 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: Do you got anything else? I got nothing else? There's 595 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: a dragons. Well, if you want to know more about dragons, 596 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 1: head out to a ruined temple, or maybe go search 597 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: for gold in a cave and you might encounter one yourself. 598 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: And since I said that, it's time for a listener mail. Uh, 599 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 1: this is a story about corn and poop. Go hey, guys, 600 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,800 Speaker 1: here's my corn story. When I've repeated often throughout my 601 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: lengthy life. I just turned seventy. Nice this from Mary 602 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:52,600 Speaker 1: Mary seventy. Well, not happy birthday, but happy happy decade turning? Okay, 603 00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 1: what I think birthday still works? No, but it wasn't 604 00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: her birthday necessarily, but happy decade. Yeah, like when you 605 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: hit seventy or sixty or fifty. Sure, no, I know 606 00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,480 Speaker 1: exactly your time. It's a rich history of saying happy 607 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,800 Speaker 1: The song happy decade turning? What song is that? Happy 608 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: happy decade turning? Is that a Bill Weather's song? You 609 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:23,560 Speaker 1: made it another ten years? Lean on me there, man, 610 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: I think I awkwardly got my way out of that 611 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,480 Speaker 1: really awkward sentence. You did. It was really good. I 612 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: grew up in Houston, Texas. Guys. One blazing hot summer 613 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,839 Speaker 1: day when I was about three or four, is out 614 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:34,800 Speaker 1: in the driveway standing around, kind of checking out the 615 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: neighbor kid who was in her driveway, who was about too. 616 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: It's hotter than the blazes. Her name was Bianca. She 617 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: was younger than me and still in the diaper phase 618 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: of life, but it was so hot she wasn't wearing 619 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 1: a diaper or anything else. Nature called to Bianca and 620 00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: while a couple of little poos were deposited on the summit, 621 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: being a curious child, and went over to check it out, 622 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 1: and lo and behold, they're in the poop embedded securely 623 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: but definitely visible. Were core colonels, unmasticated yellow against the 624 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: brown corn colonels. Right. Yeah, no, we've we got it, 625 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,399 Speaker 1: just the corn crenels. Uh, fussily. I've never been able 626 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: to look at corn, nor God forbid, eat corn literally 627 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: in any form ever since. Yeah, I could see that 628 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: happen if I hit you in just the right way, 629 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: especially at a certain age. Yep, she says, not even 630 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: corn pone, which I had to look up. I didn't 631 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 1: even know what corn pone was. It's like corn bread, 632 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, not even corn pone. God, how 633 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:36,759 Speaker 1: have you lived seventy years without corn pone? A great 634 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: emotional scar was born that day. The only benefit of 635 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,479 Speaker 1: that experience is that whenever I want to cross I'm sorry, 636 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,000 Speaker 1: gross anyone out, I just pull out the corn in 637 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: the poop story. All adults hate it, all children are 638 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: gleefully grossed out by it. I love your show, guys, 639 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: especially when y'all wander off topic and then wander back. 640 00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,440 Speaker 1: I think in the Chili Pepper episode, y'all wandered over 641 00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 1: to Yoko oh No, which was interesting. And that is 642 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,759 Speaker 1: from Mary Foy in Issaqua Washington. Well thanks, well, yeah, 643 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: I guess, thanks in quotes Mary for that one. But 644 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: thank you also for listening to us. Uh. If you 645 00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: want to write in and kind of gross us out 646 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: like Mary did, We're always up for that kind of thing. 647 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: You can take your best shot, UH, send it off 648 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:27,160 Speaker 1: to stuff podcast at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff 649 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,040 Speaker 1: you Should Know is a production of I Heart Radio. 650 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,760 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart 651 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 652 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: favorite shows.