Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
Speaker 1: and today we're discussing relational money help with financial therapist
Speaker 1: Ed Combs. Yeah, so this is a timely episode since
Speaker 1: it's a Valentine's Day today. We are really excited to
Speaker 1: be talking with Ed Combs. He's an internationally recognized leader
Speaker 1: in financial therapy who has been cited by The Wall
Speaker 1: Street Journal, of the AP, many others, and he has
Speaker 1: the credentials as well. He's earned his master's degree in
Speaker 1: business counseling and financial planning and is a licensed marriage
Speaker 1: and family therapist. He's a certified financial planner and certified
Speaker 1: financial therapist. He leads couples through therapy from financial despair
Speaker 1: and frustration into financial intimacy and connection by helping them
Speaker 1: to figure out and understand what is really going on. Uh.
Speaker 1: And so we're gonna discuss some of the concepts in
Speaker 1: his book as well. His book is The Healthy Love
Speaker 1: and Money Way, and in the book he explains where
Speaker 1: our attitudes towards money stem from and what it is
Speaker 1: that we should do about it. I'm really looking forward
Speaker 1: to this conversation. Ed Combs, Welcome to the podcast. Hey, Joel,
Speaker 1: and Matt, thanks so much for having me on today.
Speaker 1: I'm super excited to be uh talking with you guys.
Speaker 1: Ed We're glad to have you man. And the first
Speaker 1: question we ask anybody who comes on the podcast is, well,
Speaker 1: you know, Matt and I we like to drink craft
Speaker 1: beer and it's something that we splore John while we're
Speaker 1: saving and investing for the future. But what's that equivalent
Speaker 1: in your life? What do you splore John in the
Speaker 1: here and now while you're trying to also be smart
Speaker 1: with your money. Oh well, yesterday would probably be a
Speaker 1: great example of this. And it's kind of passing on
Speaker 1: to my kid. But biking. So I'm a huge mountain
Speaker 1: biker and yes, and I live in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Speaker 1: Took my son skiing up in the Blue Blue Ridge
Speaker 1: Mountains and we stopped in a great beer town, Boone,
Speaker 1: North Carolina, nice and I saw the local bike shop
Speaker 1: and I was like, I gotta go in there. I
Speaker 1: just want to see what's in there and what do
Speaker 1: they have to say about the biking scene here. And
Speaker 1: of course my son like goes me entering back into
Speaker 1: the store, starts looking at the bikes and he's like,
Speaker 1: dat I'm like, what I knew where this was going,
Speaker 1: and he was like, this BMX bike is awesome, Like
Speaker 1: I really wanted and you know, he's been on me
Speaker 1: for who knows how long now, So we're kind of
Speaker 1: in that store and I'm thinking, oh, okay, now my
Speaker 1: wife is going to feel one way about this, He's
Speaker 1: going to feel another way about this. How do I
Speaker 1: get through this? And you know, so um he ended
Speaker 1: up getting the bike. He had some birthday money and
Speaker 1: Christmas money and gift card money that he was willing
Speaker 1: to all trade in for for the bikes. So we
Speaker 1: worked it out and then had a lovely conversation with
Speaker 1: my wife when we got home, who was quite surprised
Speaker 1: to see a bike after a ski trip to the mountains.
Speaker 1: It was like, what were y'all doing? I thought ya
Speaker 1: went skiing? Well, I feel like Ed fits right in
Speaker 1: here with with with you and me. Matt was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're we're at ad bikers ourselves. We talked about it,
Speaker 1: maybe too much on the show, and our listeners like,
Speaker 1: start talking about money again, guys, but let's let's mountain
Speaker 1: bike me though, and more just kind of the practical
Speaker 1: nature of it, just the money the cost savings that
Speaker 1: come with it, the just staying healthy, exercise, all of
Speaker 1: those things. But I'm glad to hear though that your
Speaker 1: son sounded like he this wasn't just you dropping a
Speaker 1: bunch of money on a bike that may or may
Speaker 1: not have been on sale. I like that he he
Speaker 1: showed up to the table as well, he had his
Speaker 1: own money. I like that. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, he's
Speaker 1: been talking about it for a while and he's eleven,
Speaker 1: just turn eleven, and so he's at that age where
Speaker 1: financial socialization really starts to kick in at a whole
Speaker 1: another level. Um, he's got the math wherewithal to do
Speaker 1: the addition and subtraction, and you know, different than his
Speaker 1: younger brothers that are five and four and just aren't
Speaker 1: there yet. Well before we we dive into the book, Uh,
Speaker 1: we're having some of these bigger conversations about mental health
Speaker 1: in our country these days. Just generally speaking, we're not
Speaker 1: sweeping things under the rug as much as we used to.
Speaker 1: And it seems like financial therapy, which is what you do,
Speaker 1: it seems like that's because being more common as well.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about financial therapy and how it
Speaker 1: has evolved over time? Yeah, um. So financial therapy has
Speaker 1: probably been around in some shape or form for quite
Speaker 1: a long time, but more formally, the Financial Therapy Association
Speaker 1: started about twelve years ago, and it's really a group
Speaker 1: of both mental health professionals and UH financial planners working
Speaker 1: together and saying how do we do this better? And
Speaker 1: so what we really look at is how do we
Speaker 1: bring the counseling psychology processes into working with people's money.
Speaker 1: And so one of my favorite areas to talk about
Speaker 1: is this area attachment styles, which we'll be talking a
Speaker 1: little bit more about. So financial therapy is growing, the
Speaker 1: recognition is growing, and it certainly has helped me out
Speaker 1: a lot because the big thing is I was able
Speaker 1: to anticipate my wife's reaction for the bicycle as well
Speaker 1: as my son, but it was also having the skills
Speaker 1: to work through that and manage that conversation that was
Speaker 1: probably even more important. Gotcha. So we'd say that's the
Speaker 1: main difference, because yeah, you you have that CFP certification,
Speaker 1: but there there's a there's a different UM like tact.
Speaker 1: There's a different approach that the CFP is going to
Speaker 1: take when they're giving you advice. The person is going
Speaker 1: to see a financial therapist, right, and like, can you
Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, what is the difference in
Speaker 1: as like an individual as you go to pick one
Speaker 1: of these people to go see and talk to and
Speaker 1: spend time with, what's kind of the different route they're
Speaker 1: going to take as they're helping you. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: a broad paint brush stroke, but the big differences. Cfps
Speaker 1: are more often going to tell you what to do
Speaker 1: and how to do it with your money. Right, So
Speaker 1: if you need an investment strategy of the retirement plan
Speaker 1: or how does this impact my taxes, you're gonna they're
Speaker 1: going to collect the data and then they're gonna say, okay,
Speaker 1: here's your best options. A financial therapist is more going
Speaker 1: to look at your thoughts, your feelings, your behaviors, relationship
Speaker 1: dynamics that are often preventing you from even being able
Speaker 1: to talk with a financial planner about your investments, taxes, insurance,
Speaker 1: estate planning. So we're really looking at any old kind
Speaker 1: of emotional pain, thought, problematic thoughts around money that may
Speaker 1: be stopping you from moving to that next step. So
Speaker 1: you're taking another layer deeper. It's not just the nuts
Speaker 1: and bolts on the surface, but yeah, kind of more
Speaker 1: than why some of those deeper issues in your book
Speaker 1: you also so you talk about the four attachment styles.
Speaker 1: They're kind of the core message of your of your book.
Speaker 1: Can you give us an overview of those different attachment styles? Yeah, absolutely, So.
Speaker 1: Attachment styles are secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. And these
Speaker 1: attachment styles are broad categories of the way that people
Speaker 1: will experience bonding in their intimate relationships. And the bonding
Speaker 1: starts obviously in our childhood, and the research would say
Speaker 1: in some ways even while you're in your mother's womb.
Speaker 1: But this is a well researched area of psychology over
Speaker 1: the last seven decades, and what they've identified are these
Speaker 1: four broad patterns. And the secarily attached individual generally feels
Speaker 1: positive about themselves and positive about other people. They generally
Speaker 1: are trusting in relationships and can work through both good
Speaker 1: times and challenging times with another person. A person with
Speaker 1: an anxious attachment style is more often going to have
Speaker 1: a negative view of themselves and a more positive view
Speaker 1: of others. They're often wanting to bond, trying very hard
Speaker 1: to bond with with their intimate partner, but never really
Speaker 1: sure that it's working quite so well, or that they've
Speaker 1: met their partner's approval. On the other side of the
Speaker 1: attachment continuum are the avoidant attachment patterns, and those are
Speaker 1: the people that really like to do relationships on their
Speaker 1: own right. They're gonna keep people a little bit more
Speaker 1: at arm's length distance, especially when it comes to emotionally
Speaker 1: sensitive topics. More often than not, they have a more
Speaker 1: positive view of themselves and a more negative view of others.
Speaker 1: It's they're a little more dismissing. Basically, they've learned through
Speaker 1: their caregiving experiences. I can't trust other people to meet
Speaker 1: my own needs, so I have to become self reliant
Speaker 1: and then disorganized. Is some combination of the anxious and
Speaker 1: avoidant patterns. And the big thing that I like to
Speaker 1: remind people is each of these styles or patterns was
Speaker 1: very adaptive for your particular caregiving environment. It's not a oh,
Speaker 1: I should feel bad because I have an anxious attachment
Speaker 1: style or an avoidant attachment style. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: you didn't pick your attachment style. That was a product
Speaker 1: of the way that you were raised. As a a
Speaker 1: maturing adult, you may need to do some healing work
Speaker 1: around your attachment patterns so that you can move more
Speaker 1: towards that secure attachment, because that's where the research really
Speaker 1: helps us see that those are the people that have
Speaker 1: the higher relationship satisfaction, more effective communication skills, those are
Speaker 1: the things that we need in order to be successful financially. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: you you actually wrote in the book you said that
Speaker 1: discovering your attachment style has and I quote completely changed
Speaker 1: the way I think about personal finance. And I found
Speaker 1: that to be fascinating that, like, as you kind of
Speaker 1: dug in and did some of that deeper work, that
Speaker 1: it changed to what you thought about money and how
Speaker 1: you handle it. So can you can you explain how
Speaker 1: that discovery made such a dramatic shift in in your
Speaker 1: life and in how, yeah, how you handle money? Yeah? Absolutely, So,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it has given me a more
Speaker 1: formal lens for understanding both myself and my wife and
Speaker 1: where she's coming from and where I'm coming from and
Speaker 1: why I'm going to relate the way that I'm going
Speaker 1: to relate. So, if we go back to my son's
Speaker 1: bicycle purchase from yesterday, even right, a little bit of
Speaker 1: that was anxious attachment also showing up. I knew that
Speaker 1: I probably should have just given my wife a call
Speaker 1: and the heads up and said, hey, um, this is
Speaker 1: where we're at, this is where we're thinking through. That
Speaker 1: would have been a little more collaborative, right, but I
Speaker 1: was a little anxious about how she would respond, and
Speaker 1: so I was like, I'm just gonna push this on aside.
Speaker 1: Plus he's using his own money, so not that big
Speaker 1: of a deal, right, But that didn't feel great for
Speaker 1: her when we came home, and so that that was
Speaker 1: a relational missattiptment and I set myself up in that one.
Speaker 1: The other side of that, though, is as I've been
Speaker 1: growing and as my wife is growing, the conversation actually further.
Speaker 1: She was telling me about some of the things that
Speaker 1: are happening in her practice. She's a dentist. There's an
Speaker 1: income dip in January. We're not really sure what happened,
Speaker 1: but you know it. It had her anxious about the finances,
Speaker 1: and we're able to sit down and talk and just
Speaker 1: instead of me becoming overly concerned about what do I
Speaker 1: need to do to take care of her and make
Speaker 1: sure everything's gonna be all right and that somehow she's
Speaker 1: not upset at me, I just listened and helped her
Speaker 1: think through what does this mean, and then got to
Speaker 1: more of the practical side of what do we do
Speaker 1: from here. It's almost as if, yeah, understanding the other
Speaker 1: person and making sure that they feel understood it is
Speaker 1: almost more important than actually solving the problem. Yeah. I know,
Speaker 1: oftentimes in these conversations with my wife, I immediately jumped
Speaker 1: to the nuts and bolts, you know, solving the problem,
Speaker 1: when maybe that's not necessarily what's needed in the moments.
Speaker 1: I think often reaction sometimes though for us, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: And I don't want to generalize all men, but I
Speaker 1: don't know, at least at least for me, default for sure,
Speaker 1: like let me fix this for you, And she's like,
Speaker 1: that's that's not what I'm after here. Yeah. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: she even told me, she's just like, I just want
Speaker 1: you to say I'm sorry that sucks. And I've I've
Speaker 1: taken that to heart and I say that often now.
Speaker 1: It's a part of my my tool kit. But but
Speaker 1: as something else that stuck out to me is when
Speaker 1: you wrote your relationship with money is governed less by
Speaker 1: what you know about money and how it is that
Speaker 1: you experience yourself and others. You know, this is kind
Speaker 1: of going back to what we just talked about, you know,
Speaker 1: the difference between financial therapist and a CFP. But the
Speaker 1: thing is like, if that's the case, then is the
Speaker 1: solution to our money problems? Is it less about learning
Speaker 1: to budget or you know, opening a roth ira, and
Speaker 1: is it more about doing some of this internal work ourselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's the position that I've landed in, and
Speaker 1: it's been a long journey to get to this point.
Speaker 1: But there's certainly a place for increasing your financial literacy
Speaker 1: and knowledge of how money works so that you can
Speaker 1: do it well or appropriately. But the challenges that financial
Speaker 1: planning often ends up looking a lot like dieting, right,
Speaker 1: It's like people know what to do, but they don't
Speaker 1: do it, or they do it for a little bit
Speaker 1: and then they change paths. And so that starts to
Speaker 1: by the deeper question of what's going on inside of me?
Speaker 1: How am I responding or reacting to money? How is
Speaker 1: my sense of self impacting the way that I show
Speaker 1: up around money? So do I have a positive view
Speaker 1: of myself which says I can be resilient through financial
Speaker 1: struggles and be comfortable with the fact of increasing success
Speaker 1: and change, or do those things throw me off kilter. Well,
Speaker 1: and I certainly I'm not. I don't want to discount
Speaker 1: the value that a financial therapist can bring or the
Speaker 1: therapist in general can bring. My My wife is actually
Speaker 1: in school getting her master's degree right now to become
Speaker 1: a marriage and family therapist. And I think there's like
Speaker 1: so much I know, right, I'm kind of like the
Speaker 1: she's running all our papers about my idiosyncrasies, which she's great. Great,
Speaker 1: because you're gonna say a different word there. Yeah, I've
Speaker 1: got a lot of issues that she can diagnose. Um.
Speaker 1: But but is there any way And I am curious, Um,
Speaker 1: how would you suggest people start to kind of d
Speaker 1: I y and start to think through do some of
Speaker 1: this internal work UM on their own? Like is yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously it's great to go see UM an expert in
Speaker 1: the field, But is there a way that people can
Speaker 1: kind of begin and start to do some of this
Speaker 1: dredging up some of this internal work before they even
Speaker 1: go visit a professional. Yeah? Absolutely, well, And I see
Speaker 1: you know, Joel, you did your money origin story. It
Speaker 1: looks like not too long ago. So reflection in psychology
Speaker 1: and especially in counseling is a huge part of our growth, right,
Speaker 1: So becoming a more reflective person is the process of
Speaker 1: integrating and making sense out of, and sometimes recovering from
Speaker 1: those painful experiences in the past. But what you want
Speaker 1: to do is you can start taking a money history,
Speaker 1: your own money history, so you can look back and
Speaker 1: try to remember back to your earliest points and in
Speaker 1: time and see what are those financial events that happened,
Speaker 1: and just start laying out kind of a timeline. So
Speaker 1: you can even get a piece of paper out and
Speaker 1: write a nice little timeline and put age zero and
Speaker 1: to age wherever you are now, and just start doing
Speaker 1: hash marks, and you can just make little notes. And
Speaker 1: what we're looking for an activity like this is did
Speaker 1: you have mostly positive associations and memories of around money,
Speaker 1: mostly negative, some combination the two, And that very first
Speaker 1: glance through it, what we wanna make sure is can
Speaker 1: I see both the good and bad? Right? That's part
Speaker 1: of secure functioning from an attachment perspective is we're not
Speaker 1: overly focused on the good, but we're not also overly
Speaker 1: focused on on the bad. So if you have a
Speaker 1: money timeline that starts showing all kinds of painful experiences
Speaker 1: around money, and that's all that's coming up for you,
Speaker 1: that's a good sign that you probably do need to
Speaker 1: go work with a financial therapist. But if you have,
Speaker 1: you know, a mix of different experiences around money, and
Speaker 1: when you look back on those more challenging or painful
Speaker 1: money experiences, if you can be remain reflective and draw
Speaker 1: out the lessons learned, then it's probably not what I
Speaker 1: would call money trauma. But what happens is oftentimes we
Speaker 1: have money trauma where it's like I don't even want
Speaker 1: to remember those bad things that happen financially because if
Speaker 1: I do, all become overwhelmed with the emotions and the
Speaker 1: associations associated with it, And that's that's where if someone's
Speaker 1: feeling those feelings, that's where it's it's probably most helpful.
Speaker 1: Like if you do find you have the good and
Speaker 1: the bad, and you have that more secure attachment, you
Speaker 1: you can probably do some of this work on your own.
Speaker 1: But if you feel like you're shoving things down underneath
Speaker 1: the surface and you're like unwilling to deal with them,
Speaker 1: or if everything is coming up negative, that's when you
Speaker 1: probably would be Yeah, an expert would be helpful. An
Speaker 1: expert would be really helpful, right because a lot of
Speaker 1: what we talk about is it's not always even about
Speaker 1: remembering all the bad things that happen, but it's about
Speaker 1: helping you your mind psychologically recognized that that experience is
Speaker 1: over and it's in the past, and it's not about
Speaker 1: forgetting it. It's about being able to make meaning and
Speaker 1: help really at the physiological level, which is the core
Speaker 1: of us, recognize it's safe now that threat has passed. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's not something that's currently hanging over your head where
Speaker 1: you feel like you have to be on high alert.
Speaker 1: Like maybe, yeah, there was a period, say right out
Speaker 1: of college where you were incredibly low on funds and
Speaker 1: you were kind of living paycheck to paycheck. That threat
Speaker 1: of feeling like you're about to get evicted. Uh, you're
Speaker 1: saying essentially that is something we can carry into our future.
Speaker 1: That's affecting us now absolutely, Okay, Yeah, I gotta say
Speaker 1: to you're right, like and and going back to you
Speaker 1: mentioned my money origin story. That's one of those things
Speaker 1: where there were there was there was certainly a combo
Speaker 1: of good and bad things when it came to money
Speaker 1: and how I viewed money and even those negative things.
Speaker 1: I feel like for a while, especially in my early
Speaker 1: mid twenties, like they kind of influenced how I did
Speaker 1: everything when it came to how I handled money. And
Speaker 1: now I've done some work and I've grown and I
Speaker 1: feel like those things are memories and they're still impactful,
Speaker 1: but they don't hold the same weight or sway over
Speaker 1: me that they did like ten years ago. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: exactly right, And Jel, I think you're on on the
Speaker 1: point there is what that work looks like can be
Speaker 1: varied for a lot of different people, but it is
Speaker 1: you became curious at some level about how is my
Speaker 1: past shaping my present? What do I need to learn
Speaker 1: or grow into something different now? And that can help
Speaker 1: bring resolution to those painful things that happened in the past.
Speaker 1: And you know the gift of talking with many many
Speaker 1: money experts in a wide variety of fields, most of
Speaker 1: them have had some pretty defining, painful experiences around money
Speaker 1: that sent them on the transformational journey. Or if your
Speaker 1: listeners are familiar with a hero's journey, Um, that's another
Speaker 1: lens that I like to use in my my work
Speaker 1: with clients, is that doing your money work is very
Speaker 1: much a hero's journey. Absolutely, Yeah, And so doing that
Speaker 1: work yourself. That can be one way you arrived to
Speaker 1: that point, but I think a partner, somebody, a significant
Speaker 1: other can also be the refiner's fire, as you wrote,
Speaker 1: and seek to you know, evolving your relationships. So we're
Speaker 1: actually going to talk more about that. We're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about couples, uh, and finance. We're gonna get to all
Speaker 1: of that right after this break. We're back from break.
Speaker 1: We're still talking with financial therapist Ed Combs. And sometimes
Speaker 1: it's helpful to know that the struggles you're facing aren't unique.
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we're like, nobody knows what I've
Speaker 1: gone through, nobody else can identify, and you feel you
Speaker 1: feel alone in what you've gone through, and that makes
Speaker 1: it even more difficult. Um, and that maybe even makes
Speaker 1: the negative things you've experienced feel bigger than they actually were.
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, what are maybe some of the most
Speaker 1: common issues that you find yourself helping folks with at
Speaker 1: your practice, So that maybe, um, how money listeners can realize,
Speaker 1: Oh wait, that's not completely abnormal. Yeah, absolutely, So one
Speaker 1: of the biggest dynamics is around spending and saving. And
Speaker 1: you know, on the surface, it looks like we're having
Speaker 1: a fight about spending and saving, but often times where
Speaker 1: it's a fight over power and control and influence and
Speaker 1: mutual respect and so um. When I meet with the
Speaker 1: my couples around these issues, certainly I'm trying to understand
Speaker 1: their attachment styles because that's their relationship blueprint about how
Speaker 1: they're going to experience relationships. I want to know about
Speaker 1: their money history, and I want to know what they've
Speaker 1: done in the past to try to resolve this right
Speaker 1: because I want them to get more and more creative
Speaker 1: about being responsible for solving the problems. In the long run,
Speaker 1: they're going to live with each other and not be
Speaker 1: seeing me, and so I want them to be empowered
Speaker 1: around being able to find their own resolutions. My job
Speaker 1: is to help facilitate them in that direction. So common
Speaker 1: things are are certainly some degree of poverty or financial scarcity,
Speaker 1: and childhood is often a backdrop to the present day problems.
Speaker 1: I've had quite a handful of clients that grew up
Speaker 1: with affluent or wealthy parents that really mismanaged the finances,
Speaker 1: and so while there was this income and wealth, there's
Speaker 1: also high degrees of financial stress and anxiety, and so
Speaker 1: that mismatched often continues forward for a lot of clients
Speaker 1: problems around financial transparency and being honest about how much
Speaker 1: money has been spent. There's another big issue that comes up.
Speaker 1: And I think all those issues probably sound familiar to
Speaker 1: a lot of folks in one way or another. These
Speaker 1: just different dynamics that we are faced with. And so
Speaker 1: let's let's kind of dive into two dating before there's marriage.
Speaker 1: We've got dating. Uh, and then you know, first of all,
Speaker 1: how important is it to discuss finances with someone who
Speaker 1: you are building a relationship with? And uh and specifically,
Speaker 1: you know, I want to know how how soon should
Speaker 1: a couple actually have this conversation? As soon as you
Speaker 1: have your first kiss, it's time to have the first
Speaker 1: money conversation. Okay, Right, so right after that hot and heavy,
Speaker 1: sweet makeout session, you dive into your financial stuff. So
Speaker 1: tell me about your you know, your balance sheet, right
Speaker 1: out and heavy makeout session. There you go. You can
Speaker 1: leave that for the second date. No, But what I
Speaker 1: would would encourage people listening to think about is in
Speaker 1: that dating sequence, right, you're over time getting to know
Speaker 1: whether you like being in their company in general, whether
Speaker 1: there's a sense of emotional compatibility, whether there's a sense
Speaker 1: of sexual intimacy and compatibility and whatever that pacing or
Speaker 1: framework is for you. And so in the same sense,
Speaker 1: money becomes another natural point in that dating sequence where
Speaker 1: you want to start to get to know this person financially,
Speaker 1: and it's about what are their preferences, what are the
Speaker 1: things that they don't like? Can they be reflective on uh,
Speaker 1: lessons learned on money? Are they able to talk about
Speaker 1: goals and ambitions? What's their family history around money? Like
Speaker 1: those are all really important starter points to engauging the
Speaker 1: other person's readiness to engage in a healthy and productive
Speaker 1: financial relationship with you, Because if your relationship is going
Speaker 1: to progress forward, your life will be intertwined financially. There's
Speaker 1: just not a way around it. How do you create
Speaker 1: that open place, because yeah, you don't want to just
Speaker 1: be like, all right, it's it now, let me see
Speaker 1: your credit score. You know you probably do want to
Speaker 1: cover stuff like that, But how do you do it
Speaker 1: in a way that's gonna like foster healthy communication and
Speaker 1: where it feels like a safe place where you can
Speaker 1: kind of talk about those things as opposed to feeling
Speaker 1: like you're just pestering someone to get their financial details
Speaker 1: out In the open. Yeah, and so I think you
Speaker 1: really the word safe place right. So, if you're in
Speaker 1: that newly dating or early stages relationship, it may feel
Speaker 1: a little awkward to tentative to lead into the conversation.
Speaker 1: And I think the other big framing is it's not
Speaker 1: a one time conversation. This is an ongoing conversation where
Speaker 1: we're gonna open up these questions and sometimes it will
Speaker 1: be casual, maybe it's over a beer or a glass
Speaker 1: of wine. If you're moving further into that relationship, maybe
Speaker 1: it becomes more structured what we do sit down and
Speaker 1: look at each other's patterns of spending. What does that
Speaker 1: feel like to become more financially transparent with this other person?
Speaker 1: So it's you know, at some point you want to
Speaker 1: get financially naked with the person. Know it's not on
Speaker 1: the first day, probably not in the first month, but
Speaker 1: over time, if the relationship is maturing and headed in
Speaker 1: that direction where you see a longer term together, you
Speaker 1: really do want to work on that. And this is
Speaker 1: assuming you're in the position of being proactive. There might
Speaker 1: be some people listening thinking, holy crap, what is this
Speaker 1: guy talking about. I don't want to do that. That
Speaker 1: sounds terrifying to me. And if that's where you're at,
Speaker 1: completely understandable, no problem. But as we're talking about earlier,
Speaker 1: that maybe is a signal that it is time for
Speaker 1: you to start doing some of your own money work.
Speaker 1: And there's plenty of great books. You guys mentioned my book.
Speaker 1: I really appreciate that there's plenty of other great money
Speaker 1: books out there that look more at your personal relationship
Speaker 1: with money than at the numbers and spreadsheets and strategy side,
Speaker 1: as important as that is. Yeah, well, so specifically, I
Speaker 1: mean you said get getting financially naked, Like what exactly
Speaker 1: does that look like? Like, let's let's get specific with details,
Speaker 1: like what kind of information should should we be sharing?
Speaker 1: Because we you know, we joke about sharing a credit score,
Speaker 1: or you know, we might joke about student lows or
Speaker 1: something like that. But but like, I guess what what
Speaker 1: what is some practical advice for folks as to you know,
Speaker 1: what they should consider sharing with their partner? Right, So,
Speaker 1: on the objective side, it's your budget or spending patterns,
Speaker 1: a net worth statement, and credit score. And this is
Speaker 1: not to judge them, but to just have a sense
Speaker 1: of starting mutuality because you're not going to bring the
Speaker 1: same thing to the table financially. But this is part
Speaker 1: of this bigger picture that I'm I'm really encouraging more
Speaker 1: and more couples towards, which is financial intimacy, right. And
Speaker 1: when you have financial intimacy in the relationship, nothing is
Speaker 1: off limits and you can talk about anything safely, openly,
Speaker 1: candidly with each other. So this is where that attachment
Speaker 1: framework really helps people understand. If you're struggling to think
Speaker 1: about doing this, we may need to look at your
Speaker 1: attachment history and your patterns of really and ship bonding
Speaker 1: and safety and security and transparency. So do do you
Speaker 1: think maybe that's part of it then too, So we're
Speaker 1: telling you said you mentioned the credit score, sharing, spending patterns.
Speaker 1: Those are some of those objective things that we do
Speaker 1: need to share with the person that we're growing closer to.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's an important thing that we're like
Speaker 1: to those two people should also work towards knowing each
Speaker 1: other's attachment style so they can understand each other in
Speaker 1: a deeper way. And is they're like, is there a
Speaker 1: way that they can they can do that kind of
Speaker 1: find that that that out about themselves and so that
Speaker 1: they can then maybe have more of a common language
Speaker 1: to be able to in an understanding of kind of
Speaker 1: where where they're you know, significant others coming from. Yeah. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: So I have an attachment style quiz on my website, Healthy,
Speaker 1: Love and Money dot com. You can also google attachment
Speaker 1: style quizzes. There's several different resources out plenty of resources
Speaker 1: out there to start to become familiar with it. And
Speaker 1: you're right, attachment styles can become a language or relationship
Speaker 1: framework for you to understand both who am I now
Speaker 1: and where do I want to go in the future.
Speaker 1: And that's been one of the most rewarding things um
Speaker 1: as I talked to people that are taking the attachment stock,
Speaker 1: was is like, oh, oh, I can see how I
Speaker 1: used to be and now after some time in therapy,
Speaker 1: I can see that I'm more much more secure. Right,
Speaker 1: So it gives a framework for relational growth as well,
Speaker 1: and as you dive deeper into understanding your attachment styles,
Speaker 1: it just creates more and more clarity about why am
Speaker 1: I the way I am, Where are my triggers or
Speaker 1: sore spots around relationship connection? And then what do I
Speaker 1: need to do to start getting some healing and relief?
Speaker 1: Around that, and it often then the other partner can
Speaker 1: also recognize, Oh, this isn't just about me not being
Speaker 1: responsive to them or the way that I'm responsive. It's
Speaker 1: about their attachment history and the unmet emotional and relational
Speaker 1: needs that they had. As you are explaining this, and
Speaker 1: I mean, I realized, I've had a lot of conversations
Speaker 1: with my wife about money, and I don't know if
Speaker 1: maybe it's just because we have similar attachment styles, we've
Speaker 1: been able to work forward, and I guess neither of
Speaker 1: us have really been all that frustrated with how the
Speaker 1: other handles money, and so I guess in that way
Speaker 1: we've got lucky. But because of that, this isn't something
Speaker 1: we've ever addressed head on, you know, we haven't gotten down,
Speaker 1: uh and really picked apart some of these attachment styles
Speaker 1: and what that means to us. Makes me wonder if
Speaker 1: there's a fifth attachment style of nerdy, because that's Matt's
Speaker 1: attachment for money. That is that one? Did I just
Speaker 1: come up with a new one? Is this ground members?
Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, Excel is that one? Just? But
Speaker 1: so attachments is really about your interpersonal bonding, right, like
Speaker 1: how you experienced interpersonal relationships, and then the way you
Speaker 1: approach money can be different than your attachment style psychologically speaking.
Speaker 1: But if you're anxious, then you're more likely to feel
Speaker 1: rejected or uncertain in the relationship about how to navigate
Speaker 1: these difficult money conversations with your partner, whereas if you're
Speaker 1: more on that avoiding continuous like I'm not going to
Speaker 1: include you in what's going on here financially, like I
Speaker 1: can't really trust you to understand me, so why would
Speaker 1: I let you in? Yeah? Well, and Ed, you know,
Speaker 1: when we were talking about some of the specifics to share,
Speaker 1: you share that there are some different objective you know,
Speaker 1: pieces of data that we need to share, like your
Speaker 1: credit score, things like that. Are there is there a
Speaker 1: set of subjective details or I guess goals that we
Speaker 1: need to talk about with our partners. Yeah, that's where
Speaker 1: we started getting into. Um, both the positive side of
Speaker 1: things and the challenging or dash negative side of things
Speaker 1: is like your fears, your anxieties, maybe even places of
Speaker 1: shame around money, like maybe I know what I should
Speaker 1: be doing with money, but I'm not doing it, or
Speaker 1: you know, I spend money in this way or that
Speaker 1: way that I feel embarrassed about maybe I feel controlled
Speaker 1: by my parents and the way that they manage the
Speaker 1: money between me and them. Maybe I've felt financially responsible
Speaker 1: for other family members that I feel resentful for. So
Speaker 1: those are the challenging inside of money dynamics and relationships.
Speaker 1: But then it's also about sharing your hopes, your dreams,
Speaker 1: your aspirations, and surprisingly a lot of people really struggle
Speaker 1: in this area to actually adequately articulate hopes, dreams, um values.
Speaker 1: And so that's an area to dig into as a
Speaker 1: couple and to start exploring and cultivating and um you know,
Speaker 1: for some in a very simple way, I'm a big
Speaker 1: dreamer and my wife is much more practical, And so
Speaker 1: that's a dynamic that gets challenging. Is it's no problem
Speaker 1: for me, like, oh, I'm dreaming about a lake house
Speaker 1: and a boat and I wanted a vacation, and and
Speaker 1: her head's like just registering dollar signals for all of
Speaker 1: this instead of just tracking with me and be like, wow,
Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Tell me more about why that's important
Speaker 1: to you, right, Because there is meaning for me around
Speaker 1: those and and this is that other side of mutuality
Speaker 1: is being able to draw my wife into that place
Speaker 1: of hopes, dreams, and aspiration ends, but also in staying
Speaker 1: balanced with the practical and holding both ends of those
Speaker 1: things together. So that's those are much more of the
Speaker 1: subjective elements of managing money life together. Yeah, good stuff.
Speaker 1: All right, We've got some more questions to get to
Speaker 1: about how couples can handle money well together and including
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about how to handle conflicts, because that's
Speaker 1: kind of inevitable when you're in love with someone else
Speaker 1: and you've got to talk about money. So we'll get
Speaker 1: to some questions on that right after this break. Alright,
Speaker 1: we're back from the break and we are speaking with
Speaker 1: a financial therapist, Ed Combs. Uh, Ed, how do you
Speaker 1: help couples who are on completely different pages when it
Speaker 1: comes to how it is that they handle money if
Speaker 1: they're just not in and yang? Seriously, I mean, in
Speaker 1: some ways I feel like it can be helpful because
Speaker 1: it can help couples to balance out, but oftentimes I
Speaker 1: think it can keep you from being able to, you know,
Speaker 1: progress forward at all. How would you help out in
Speaker 1: that situation? Yeah, so absolutely true. Those are big dynamics
Speaker 1: to draw out. When I talk with couples, I normalize
Speaker 1: the reality that you're going to be similar and different
Speaker 1: around money, and it's more often where we're different around
Speaker 1: money that the conflict starts to show up. But this
Speaker 1: is where I like to take them a step deeper
Speaker 1: before we try to get together on the topic. We've
Speaker 1: been talking throughout this show about money histories, and a
Speaker 1: lot of times couples know bits and pieces of each
Speaker 1: other's money history, but they don't really they haven't really
Speaker 1: ever heard it in kind of a full story format,
Speaker 1: and maybe you you haven't. They haven't done it for themselves, right,
Speaker 1: So if you're fighting about these differences, the big starting
Speaker 1: point is getting curious about where do these differences come from?
Speaker 1: Where my history and life did this outlook on money
Speaker 1: come from? What does that mean or represent to me?
Speaker 1: I am I doing it that way? And then why
Speaker 1: for the same for the other person, Because the reality
Speaker 1: is there are like there are reasons and motivations for
Speaker 1: why we were doing what we're doing with money. They
Speaker 1: may not always be immediately conscious or aware, but if
Speaker 1: we go back into our money history and can start
Speaker 1: to dig into what different emotional emotions got attached with
Speaker 1: different money experiences, we can usually start to fare it
Speaker 1: out So as a more practical example, UM, I had
Speaker 1: a couple where the wife was would do a lot
Speaker 1: more of the shopping. She would get secretive about it,
Speaker 1: and the husband would be kind of controlling of her
Speaker 1: about about her spending. And so they came to me
Speaker 1: to get help around this because she would promise I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna spend any more, and then six
Speaker 1: months to a year later she would be back to
Speaker 1: the shopping and spending. And so that was a really
Speaker 1: frustrating cycle for for the couple. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think some people would hear this and be, oh, well,
Speaker 1: there's abuse in the relationship. Well, no, it wasn't really
Speaker 1: about abuse. It was about their own painful past experiences
Speaker 1: around money and in very short form, trying to protect
Speaker 1: their confidentiality. Uh. She had lost her mother in childhood
Speaker 1: and one of those ways that her family kind of
Speaker 1: if you will, took care of her as she aged
Speaker 1: is they would take her shopping to make her feel better. Right,
Speaker 1: And so as she was now an adult married woman,
Speaker 1: anytime that she started to feel stressed, her brain associated
Speaker 1: stress not feeling good, go shopping. Well. This was in
Speaker 1: perfect contrast to her husband, who had grown up in
Speaker 1: an environment where he was very sensitive to his mother
Speaker 1: and the financial challenges that they were experiencing. And when
Speaker 1: he would go, he would call going shopping, and his
Speaker 1: older brothers would not think twice about getting a bunch
Speaker 1: of clothes at the department store. Meanwhile, he's watching his
Speaker 1: mom's face kind of like drop and sorrow and overwhelmed,
Speaker 1: and he would restrict what he would buy to try
Speaker 1: to lessen the blow to mom. So it's where you're
Speaker 1: doing that deeper work. It helps you realize, oh wait,
Speaker 1: this person, the love of my life, is not doing
Speaker 1: this to sabotage me or to ruin our financial goals
Speaker 1: or plans. It comes from this deeper place and you
Speaker 1: can like sympathize and empathize more with with your sement
Speaker 1: bic another. Then right, that's exactly right, And that's the
Speaker 1: exact goal of that type of exercise. Is for most couples,
Speaker 1: that's where they land in that type of exercise. If
Speaker 1: they're not able to step into that empathy and sympathy
Speaker 1: for each other's past stories, that just means that there's
Speaker 1: often even more emotional pain and hurt um for them
Speaker 1: that they need to be able to work through before
Speaker 1: they can really see each other's U side of the
Speaker 1: story and how that's shape them. Yeah. Yeah, there were
Speaker 1: some recent stats that came out about financial infidelity and
Speaker 1: that if I think credit cards dot Com did a
Speaker 1: survey and it certainly seems like it's on the rise
Speaker 1: where couples are hiding spending from one another, or they
Speaker 1: have maybe a credit card that they haven't that they
Speaker 1: haven't revealed to their partner. Um. And and and you actually
Speaker 1: you actually detail in the book about UM some financial
Speaker 1: infidelity that happened inside of your marriage, and it's a
Speaker 1: very personal story. UM. But since you shared in your book,
Speaker 1: would you mind sharing it with us here? Yeah? Absolutely So.
Speaker 1: Financial infidelity is a breach in relational trust, both implicit
Speaker 1: and explicit expectations around money. Right. And so for me,
Speaker 1: my wife had launched her dental practice. This has been
Speaker 1: a much part of larger part of our ongoing marital dynamic.
Speaker 1: And part of why I got here is out of
Speaker 1: values of why I was. I have no problem with
Speaker 1: women making more money than men, but at a lived experience,
Speaker 1: it's played on some of my own insecurities. And so
Speaker 1: after my I went back to school to become a therapist,
Speaker 1: you know, wasn't uh I left the working world, wasn't
Speaker 1: making money. It had been a stay at home dad,
Speaker 1: and was trying to get back into getting my counseling
Speaker 1: practice up and going. And by this time I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, oh, I'll figure it out. I help my
Speaker 1: wife grow her dental practice. And how hard it can
Speaker 1: it be to grow counseling practice. And let me just say,
Speaker 1: it was nothing like growing a gental practice. Harder, much harder,
Speaker 1: because you know, we would go to parties and people
Speaker 1: would find out my wife as a dentist and they
Speaker 1: would say, oh, can I have your card? And I
Speaker 1: would say I'm a therapist, and they would kind of
Speaker 1: walk away from me, like everybody knows that, hey, guys,
Speaker 1: they need a cleaning. But most people like think that
Speaker 1: they're pretty good internally, you know, like they think that
Speaker 1: even though that's probably not necessarily true. Well, and in therapist,
Speaker 1: we don't work with people that we know like that,
Speaker 1: we don't have we don't we have regular engagement with.
Speaker 1: So that was so there was so those dynamics. There
Speaker 1: was so many different layers to this this cake, so
Speaker 1: to speak. But from a financial infidelity standpoint is I,
Speaker 1: you know, had made my projections about how quickly a
Speaker 1: practice would get going, use some money, credit card money
Speaker 1: to get things going, and got stuck in this rationalization like, well,
Speaker 1: she makes money of money. If this doesn't work out,
Speaker 1: she'll be able to cut it. And so I just
Speaker 1: didn't tell her about how bad things were getting. And
Speaker 1: I've had some other mental health things that we're really
Speaker 1: starting to spiral out of control, for me falling into
Speaker 1: a pretty significant, major depression. And so it's this complex
Speaker 1: constellation of experiences that led me to not be transparent
Speaker 1: with my wife about where we're at financially. Eventually it
Speaker 1: did break through, and we had to work through that
Speaker 1: and make meaning makes sense out of how do we
Speaker 1: get here. Fortunately, we had had quite a number of
Speaker 1: years of financial transparency and trust prior to that, and
Speaker 1: so she could see kind of contextually how I got there.
Speaker 1: It didn't mean that it didn't doesn't sting or didn't
Speaker 1: sting at that time, And you know, we worked very
Speaker 1: hard now to maintain financial transparency. And this is a
Speaker 1: really challenging place for a lot of couples where one
Speaker 1: or both people are in business because income variability is
Speaker 1: part of the journey, and so you're trying to make
Speaker 1: projections and some level of commitment to this is what
Speaker 1: I can bring into the family. But then reality hits
Speaker 1: and it's not always pretty. What if someone is actually
Speaker 1: in an unhealthy or even an abusive relationship? You know,
Speaker 1: like money can oftentimes I think it can be used
Speaker 1: as a tool. It can maybe even be used as
Speaker 1: a weapon. Uh, And so what are maybe some signs
Speaker 1: that this is going on in a relationship? And then
Speaker 1: what should someone do about it if they realize that
Speaker 1: they are in an abusive or toxic relationship? Yeah, so
Speaker 1: straightaway get to a couple of therapists as fast as
Speaker 1: you can, even if you have that sense or your
Speaker 1: question in it. I mean, do your Google research if
Speaker 1: you need to, but it's better just go ahead and
Speaker 1: get into a couple of therapists, because it's like it's
Speaker 1: better to have the chest pain and go to the
Speaker 1: doctor and have the doctors say, oh, this is uh
Speaker 1: something you know, mild, not not a big deal, or no,
Speaker 1: you're about to have a heart attack. Right, you want
Speaker 1: to get in front of professional eyes that work with
Speaker 1: abusive relationships regularly so that they can help you differentiate
Speaker 1: because it's very hard people when they're in the abusive
Speaker 1: relationship to come to terms and work through that. And
Speaker 1: so my encouragement even if you think that you're in
Speaker 1: an abusive relationship, just go ahead and get into a
Speaker 1: couple's therapy or go find find a therapist and start
Speaker 1: asking your questions and sharing your story. You're so miird
Speaker 1: in it that you're not gonna be able to see
Speaker 1: it clearly. Yeah. Well yeah, And if someone has been
Speaker 1: listening and and they're like, yeah, okay, it sounds like
Speaker 1: I need to see a financial therapist or yeah, where
Speaker 1: should they go? Is there is there a resource where
Speaker 1: you tell people to turn to find someone close to
Speaker 1: them that can help them out in this area. Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: So if you're thinking my issue is more kind of
Speaker 1: around how I interact with money, the Financial Therapy Association
Speaker 1: is a wonderful starting place. They have a find a
Speaker 1: therapist tool there, So that's for the financial therapy side
Speaker 1: of things, and then for a couples therapists. Psychology Today
Speaker 1: has a great therapist directory in listening there and you
Speaker 1: can search by all kinds of different criteria for therapist
Speaker 1: in your local area. Uh. And and I wanted to
Speaker 1: say ed, like, I know some people might say that's
Speaker 1: an odd choice of an episode to do on Valentine's Day,
Speaker 1: to to to talk of all these things, But I think, like, um,
Speaker 1: I think sometimes maybe we misunderstand what love is in
Speaker 1: our culture, and I think truly loving somebody else is,
Speaker 1: and truly loving yourself is doing some of these this
Speaker 1: hard work and growing together over time in ways that
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily easy. And so well, Matt and I, we
Speaker 1: really appreciate you coming on and talking about some of
Speaker 1: the harder things that we have to deal with, particularly
Speaker 1: like getting on the same page about money and and
Speaker 1: doing some of that. Yeah, those deeper dives into kind
Speaker 1: of our money history. So um, yeah, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. And where can our
Speaker 1: listeners find out more about you and what you're up to? Yeah? Absolutely,
Speaker 1: Uh my website, Healthy Love and Money dot com is
Speaker 1: probably the best place to get started from there. Um
Speaker 1: have blogs, social media links, my book that you guys mentioned.
Speaker 1: I'm very excited about a new course that I'm watching,
Speaker 1: The Couple's Guide to Financial Intimacy. It's if you're thinking
Speaker 1: you want to do the deep dive, Um, that's gonna
Speaker 1: be a year long program that you can check out
Speaker 1: and see if that's a good fit for you. That's awesome.
Speaker 1: We'll make sure to link to all of that and
Speaker 1: uh and specifically to the links where folks can learn
Speaker 1: more about that course. Ed. Thank you for joining us
Speaker 1: on the podcast today, Joelo Matt has been quite a
Speaker 1: pleasure talking with you. Keep up the great work, and
Speaker 1: I look forward to being a guest in the future. Yeah, Joe,
Speaker 1: hopefully we will be able to have ed back on
Speaker 1: because these topics are so important for us to talk about,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad that we were able to dive into
Speaker 1: them today. Uh. Specifically, what was your big takeaway from
Speaker 1: this episode? All right, that's a good question in this conversation, Well,
Speaker 1: I think the biggest, the biggest teguway I had was
Speaker 1: that one the common issues he mentioned are ones that
Speaker 1: plague all of us, even even people that are good
Speaker 1: with money still have money arguments or still have money disagreements.
Speaker 1: And and I think what he pointed at was the
Speaker 1: fact that there is almost always something deeper going on there,
Speaker 1: or maybe even always right where it is more about
Speaker 1: like power or dynamics, or or you want respect from
Speaker 1: your partner or um you know, there's a lack of
Speaker 1: transparency going on and that you feel uncomfortable with. And
Speaker 1: so I think, you know, when when you are having,
Speaker 1: you know, money fights or disagreements, it's important to kind
Speaker 1: of like go another level deeper in order to kind
Speaker 1: of assess, well, why is it that I'm reacting this
Speaker 1: way or why is it that I'm so upset right
Speaker 1: now because my partner spent money in that way, which
Speaker 1: I would never spend money in that way. And I
Speaker 1: know that over the years, like I've had to come
Speaker 1: to grips with some of those things in my own
Speaker 1: life where it's like, oh, that's that's my insecurity coming out.
Speaker 1: That's not that's not Emily's fault, that's my fault. Um.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, digging that next layer deeper into what's
Speaker 1: happening beneath the surface is so crucial to actually being
Speaker 1: able to talk about money in a more productive way
Speaker 1: with the person that you love, with your significant other.
Speaker 1: That's so true. And you know, you kind of talked
Speaker 1: about transparency and how there might need to be more
Speaker 1: of that when it comes to some of the disagreements
Speaker 1: we have. I left how when he talked about what
Speaker 1: he called financial infidelity on his part. It doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be this giant, massive thing. It can just literally
Speaker 1: be a lack of transparency where you're not sharing information.
Speaker 1: I think sometimes when you say financial infidelity, it sounds
Speaker 1: like this massive, big, you know, breach of trust, when
Speaker 1: in reality it can start, you know, and it is,
Speaker 1: but it likely started very innocently, you know, like at
Speaker 1: a very small scale where maybe you weren't quite as
Speaker 1: transparent with your spending. Uh. And so that's a little
Speaker 1: piggyback onto unto years. But my big takeaway I wanted
Speaker 1: to focus on how he talked about digging into your
Speaker 1: own history with money, and he explained how simply what
Speaker 1: you can do is just you know, draw a line,
Speaker 1: put some hash marks on there, and create a timeline.
Speaker 1: And for a culture who probably doesn't reflect as much
Speaker 1: as we need to, that to me was just a
Speaker 1: great tool, a great way to think back on your
Speaker 1: history to see if you can isolate, see if you
Speaker 1: can find and identify some of the different events that
Speaker 1: occurred in your past that might be worth sharing with
Speaker 1: your partner. Right as you start to build up that relationship,
Speaker 1: as you start having some more of these important conversations
Speaker 1: that you might be able to identify some of these
Speaker 1: things that you might want to share with them, and
Speaker 1: that might allow them to get a feel for who
Speaker 1: you are, why it is that you do spend the
Speaker 1: way you do, or why it is that you don't
Speaker 1: spend money at all, and and help you come to
Speaker 1: groups of that yourself you might call milestones or you know,
Speaker 1: markers in your life that you've forgotten about. You're like, wow,
Speaker 1: that really had a pretty big impact. Yeah, it's about
Speaker 1: that self discovery, but then being able to then take
Speaker 1: that hopefully whole self to a relationship. Because you know,
Speaker 1: you combine two different people who have not you know,
Speaker 1: reflected and who haven't really dealt with their past, then
Speaker 1: it's kind of a recipe for disaster. Right You take
Speaker 1: two broken people bring them together as opposed to two
Speaker 1: folks who have an awareness of what they've been through
Speaker 1: and what they're looking to grow together. I think that's
Speaker 1: really important. Yeah, for sure, I like that. All right, Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a fun conversation and hopefully more conversations like
Speaker 1: that in the future on how to mind and hopefully
Speaker 1: it was I mean, ultimately I like what you said
Speaker 1: there at the end too. It seems like a kind
Speaker 1: of a weird topic day, Yeah, and ultimately it is.
Speaker 1: But man, love it's hard work. It's not just like, Okay,
Speaker 1: how can you afford to buy chocolate for your partner
Speaker 1: that's cheap? Like where we want to. I want to
Speaker 1: get him the cheap chocolate that doesn't say I love you.
Speaker 1: Get the good stuff from all the germ, the German chocolate,
Speaker 1: like William Brown told us about. But we wanted to
Speaker 1: take it a level deeper to really get at the
Speaker 1: root of what makes relationships and love successful. And so
Speaker 1: that is why we wanted to have this conversation today,
Speaker 1: even though at times it kind of got a little
Speaker 1: more heavy, a little a little more serious. All right, Well, uh,
Speaker 1: I agree, And for you and I, what makes our
Speaker 1: relationship successful is drinking good beer together and talking about
Speaker 1: money and so on today's I said, while we talked
Speaker 1: with Ed, we were drinking a grim Lilt grim as
Speaker 1: this brewery out of Brooklyn, New York. I believe they
Speaker 1: make some awesome beers and this is a golden sour
Speaker 1: aged noe barrels with tart cherries. Matt, what was your
Speaker 1: what your thoughts on this beer? Dude? This is a
Speaker 1: fantastic beer when it comes to sours, fruited sours that
Speaker 1: are barrel aged. This has everything that I'm looking for.
Speaker 1: It's got that tartness, it's got the acidity so it
Speaker 1: feels bright and crisp in your mouth. It's got the
Speaker 1: right amount of fruit. But then it's got that funkiness,
Speaker 1: some of those those woody knows, some of those at
Speaker 1: going on for sure. Oh, it is so good. It's
Speaker 1: got I mean, it checks all the boxes for what
Speaker 1: I'm looking for in a sour. You know. One of
Speaker 1: the things we we talked about when we're talking about
Speaker 1: barrel aged towers is how those barrels add a level
Speaker 1: of complexity to the flavor compared to a kettle sour,
Speaker 1: which in my opinion oftentimes can taste a little not flat,
Speaker 1: but just kind of like one note. Uh. And I
Speaker 1: love that with a barrel aged tower, oftentimes you get
Speaker 1: that true depth. Uh. And that's definitely what we've got
Speaker 1: going on here. But yeah, what what your thoughts? No,
Speaker 1: I think you're right, Like you dig the cherries like
Speaker 1: a single note versus a chord, right, and yeah, and
Speaker 1: so this this beer was like a beautifully played chord
Speaker 1: um and yeah, I dug the cherries. I love cherries
Speaker 1: in a beer. But then also yeah, just that strong
Speaker 1: oat presence combined with the like very tartness, a little
Speaker 1: bit of funkiness and grim makes some really good beers. Sadly,
Speaker 1: we've never been to the brewery hopefully one of these days,
Speaker 1: but this beer makes me want to go even more
Speaker 1: because it was delicious. What if we started taking like
Speaker 1: brewery trips, Like we talked about going to visit certain
Speaker 1: breweries in certain cities, and some cities have a lot
Speaker 1: of good breweries. Uh, maybe that's something new that I
Speaker 1: can prioritize in the in the coming years of money
Speaker 1: road trip. Let's do it all right? Well, Happy Valentine's
Speaker 1: to Day to everyone out there. I hope. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: you've got some motivation to attend to your relationship even
Speaker 1: more in this coming year. After listening to this episode,
Speaker 1: we wish you the best of luck. And that's gonna
Speaker 1: do it for this episode, Matt. Until next time, Best
Speaker 1: Friends Out, Best Friends Out.