WEBVTT - Relational Money Help with Financial Therapist Ed Coambs #475 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.880 Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:07.080 and today we're discussing relational money help with financial therapist 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:29.520 Ed Combs. Yeah, so this is a timely episode since 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:32.560 it's a Valentine's Day today. We are really excited to 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.840 be talking with Ed Combs. He's an internationally recognized leader 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:38.120 in financial therapy who has been cited by The Wall 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:41.400 Street Journal, of the AP, many others, and he has 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.400 the credentials as well. He's earned his master's degree in 0:00:44.520 --> 0:00:48.920 business counseling and financial planning and is a licensed marriage 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:52.800 and family therapist. He's a certified financial planner and certified 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:57.280 financial therapist. He leads couples through therapy from financial despair 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:01.680 and frustration into financial intimacy and connection by helping them 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:05.440 to figure out and understand what is really going on. Uh. 0:01:05.480 --> 0:01:07.520 And so we're gonna discuss some of the concepts in 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:10.199 his book as well. His book is The Healthy Love 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:13.080 and Money Way, and in the book he explains where 0:01:13.120 --> 0:01:16.360 our attitudes towards money stem from and what it is 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:18.240 that we should do about it. I'm really looking forward 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:22.040 to this conversation. Ed Combs, Welcome to the podcast. Hey, Joel, 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:23.720 and Matt, thanks so much for having me on today. 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:25.960 I'm super excited to be uh talking with you guys. 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:28.480 Ed We're glad to have you man. And the first 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.920 question we ask anybody who comes on the podcast is, well, 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:33.640 you know, Matt and I we like to drink craft 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.000 beer and it's something that we splore John while we're 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.720 saving and investing for the future. But what's that equivalent 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:40.320 in your life? What do you splore John in the 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:42.240 here and now while you're trying to also be smart 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:46.000 with your money. Oh well, yesterday would probably be a 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.240 great example of this. And it's kind of passing on 0:01:48.280 --> 0:01:50.840 to my kid. But biking. So I'm a huge mountain 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:54.480 biker and yes, and I live in Charlotte, North Carolina. 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.440 Took my son skiing up in the Blue Blue Ridge 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.520 Mountains and we stopped in a great beer town, Boone, 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:04.520 North Carolina, nice and I saw the local bike shop 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:05.600 and I was like, I gotta go in there. I 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:06.840 just want to see what's in there and what do 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:08.840 they have to say about the biking scene here. And 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:10.880 of course my son like goes me entering back into 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.360 the store, starts looking at the bikes and he's like, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.399 dat I'm like, what I knew where this was going, 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:20.360 and he was like, this BMX bike is awesome, Like 0:02:20.440 --> 0:02:22.120 I really wanted and you know, he's been on me 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:24.840 for who knows how long now, So we're kind of 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:28.079 in that store and I'm thinking, oh, okay, now my 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:30.760 wife is going to feel one way about this, He's 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:32.880 going to feel another way about this. How do I 0:02:32.919 --> 0:02:36.560 get through this? And you know, so um he ended 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:38.359 up getting the bike. He had some birthday money and 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.720 Christmas money and gift card money that he was willing 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.720 to all trade in for for the bikes. So we 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.240 worked it out and then had a lovely conversation with 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:50.160 my wife when we got home, who was quite surprised 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:53.520 to see a bike after a ski trip to the mountains. 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:54.960 It was like, what were y'all doing? I thought ya 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:56.800 went skiing? Well, I feel like Ed fits right in 0:02:56.840 --> 0:02:59.359 here with with with you and me. Matt was like, yeah, 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:01.720 we're we're at ad bikers ourselves. We talked about it, 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:03.760 maybe too much on the show, and our listeners like, 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.320 start talking about money again, guys, but let's let's mountain 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:08.080 bike me though, and more just kind of the practical 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:10.240 nature of it, just the money the cost savings that 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.280 come with it, the just staying healthy, exercise, all of 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:15.280 those things. But I'm glad to hear though that your 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.480 son sounded like he this wasn't just you dropping a 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:20.360 bunch of money on a bike that may or may 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.440 not have been on sale. I like that he he 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:24.880 showed up to the table as well, he had his 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.480 own money. I like that. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, he's 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:29.200 been talking about it for a while and he's eleven, 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.880 just turn eleven, and so he's at that age where 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:35.320 financial socialization really starts to kick in at a whole 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.880 another level. Um, he's got the math wherewithal to do 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.000 the addition and subtraction, and you know, different than his 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.720 younger brothers that are five and four and just aren't 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:48.160 there yet. Well before we we dive into the book, Uh, 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:50.880 we're having some of these bigger conversations about mental health 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:53.400 in our country these days. Just generally speaking, we're not 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:55.760 sweeping things under the rug as much as we used to. 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:58.920 And it seems like financial therapy, which is what you do, 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.040 it seems like that's because being more common as well. 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:03.480 Can you tell us about financial therapy and how it 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.840 has evolved over time? Yeah, um. So financial therapy has 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:09.880 probably been around in some shape or form for quite 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.840 a long time, but more formally, the Financial Therapy Association 0:04:12.840 --> 0:04:15.680 started about twelve years ago, and it's really a group 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:20.200 of both mental health professionals and UH financial planners working 0:04:20.200 --> 0:04:23.200 together and saying how do we do this better? And 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:25.200 so what we really look at is how do we 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:29.880 bring the counseling psychology processes into working with people's money. 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:31.679 And so one of my favorite areas to talk about 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.640 is this area attachment styles, which we'll be talking a 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:38.320 little bit more about. So financial therapy is growing, the 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:41.840 recognition is growing, and it certainly has helped me out 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:45.360 a lot because the big thing is I was able 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:48.800 to anticipate my wife's reaction for the bicycle as well 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:51.520 as my son, but it was also having the skills 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:54.279 to work through that and manage that conversation that was 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.840 probably even more important. Gotcha. So we'd say that's the 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:01.160 main difference, because yeah, you you have that CFP certification, 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:05.080 but there there's a there's a different UM like tact. 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:07.480 There's a different approach that the CFP is going to 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:09.520 take when they're giving you advice. The person is going 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.480 to see a financial therapist, right, and like, can you 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:14.279 kind of like, you know, what is the difference in 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:16.720 as like an individual as you go to pick one 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:18.159 of these people to go see and talk to and 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.440 spend time with, what's kind of the different route they're 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:22.479 going to take as they're helping you. Yeah, this is 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:26.480 a broad paint brush stroke, but the big differences. Cfps 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:28.360 are more often going to tell you what to do 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:30.880 and how to do it with your money. Right, So 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.480 if you need an investment strategy of the retirement plan 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.120 or how does this impact my taxes, you're gonna they're 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.400 going to collect the data and then they're gonna say, okay, 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:42.240 here's your best options. A financial therapist is more going 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:46.479 to look at your thoughts, your feelings, your behaviors, relationship 0:05:46.600 --> 0:05:50.120 dynamics that are often preventing you from even being able 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:54.440 to talk with a financial planner about your investments, taxes, insurance, 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:58.920 estate planning. So we're really looking at any old kind 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:03.040 of emotional pain, thought, problematic thoughts around money that may 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.520 be stopping you from moving to that next step. So 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.679 you're taking another layer deeper. It's not just the nuts 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.440 and bolts on the surface, but yeah, kind of more 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:14.760 than why some of those deeper issues in your book 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.160 you also so you talk about the four attachment styles. 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:19.799 They're kind of the core message of your of your book. 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.360 Can you give us an overview of those different attachment styles? Yeah, absolutely, So. 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:30.600 Attachment styles are secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. And these 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:33.440 attachment styles are broad categories of the way that people 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.880 will experience bonding in their intimate relationships. And the bonding 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:40.720 starts obviously in our childhood, and the research would say 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.120 in some ways even while you're in your mother's womb. 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.640 But this is a well researched area of psychology over 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.160 the last seven decades, and what they've identified are these 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:54.320 four broad patterns. And the secarily attached individual generally feels 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:58.200 positive about themselves and positive about other people. They generally 0:06:58.240 --> 0:07:01.800 are trusting in relationships and can work through both good 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.560 times and challenging times with another person. A person with 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.719 an anxious attachment style is more often going to have 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.600 a negative view of themselves and a more positive view 0:07:11.640 --> 0:07:15.320 of others. They're often wanting to bond, trying very hard 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.360 to bond with with their intimate partner, but never really 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:20.760 sure that it's working quite so well, or that they've 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.280 met their partner's approval. On the other side of the 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.040 attachment continuum are the avoidant attachment patterns, and those are 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:30.200 the people that really like to do relationships on their 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:33.280 own right. They're gonna keep people a little bit more 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:35.880 at arm's length distance, especially when it comes to emotionally 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:39.000 sensitive topics. More often than not, they have a more 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.200 positive view of themselves and a more negative view of others. 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:45.480 It's they're a little more dismissing. Basically, they've learned through 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.000 their caregiving experiences. I can't trust other people to meet 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.520 my own needs, so I have to become self reliant 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.480 and then disorganized. Is some combination of the anxious and 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.200 avoidant patterns. And the big thing that I like to 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.840 remind people is each of these styles or patterns was 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:07.560 very adaptive for your particular caregiving environment. It's not a oh, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.239 I should feel bad because I have an anxious attachment 0:08:10.280 --> 0:08:12.840 style or an avoidant attachment style. It's like, you know, 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.040 you didn't pick your attachment style. That was a product 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.520 of the way that you were raised. As a a 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:22.600 maturing adult, you may need to do some healing work 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.880 around your attachment patterns so that you can move more 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:28.320 towards that secure attachment, because that's where the research really 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:30.640 helps us see that those are the people that have 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:36.200 the higher relationship satisfaction, more effective communication skills, those are 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.640 the things that we need in order to be successful financially. Yeah. Well, 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:42.280 you you actually wrote in the book you said that 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.240 discovering your attachment style has and I quote completely changed 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.960 the way I think about personal finance. And I found 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.240 that to be fascinating that, like, as you kind of 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.600 dug in and did some of that deeper work, that 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:56.040 it changed to what you thought about money and how 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.640 you handle it. So can you can you explain how 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:02.199 that discovery made such a dramatic shift in in your 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.920 life and in how, yeah, how you handle money? Yeah? Absolutely, So, 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.120 you know, I think it has given me a more 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.560 formal lens for understanding both myself and my wife and 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.120 where she's coming from and where I'm coming from and 0:09:15.120 --> 0:09:16.720 why I'm going to relate the way that I'm going 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:18.920 to relate. So, if we go back to my son's 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:21.760 bicycle purchase from yesterday, even right, a little bit of 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:25.480 that was anxious attachment also showing up. I knew that 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.360 I probably should have just given my wife a call 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.120 and the heads up and said, hey, um, this is 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:31.560 where we're at, this is where we're thinking through. That 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.880 would have been a little more collaborative, right, but I 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.320 was a little anxious about how she would respond, and 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:38.760 so I was like, I'm just gonna push this on aside. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:41.520 Plus he's using his own money, so not that big 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.320 of a deal, right, But that didn't feel great for 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.560 her when we came home, and so that that was 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:51.200 a relational missattiptment and I set myself up in that one. 0:09:51.960 --> 0:09:54.800 The other side of that, though, is as I've been 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.839 growing and as my wife is growing, the conversation actually further. 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:00.560 She was telling me about some of the things that 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.720 are happening in her practice. She's a dentist. There's an 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.439 income dip in January. We're not really sure what happened, 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.200 but you know it. It had her anxious about the finances, 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.760 and we're able to sit down and talk and just 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.520 instead of me becoming overly concerned about what do I 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:16.800 need to do to take care of her and make 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.280 sure everything's gonna be all right and that somehow she's 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:23.760 not upset at me, I just listened and helped her 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:26.160 think through what does this mean, and then got to 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:28.360 more of the practical side of what do we do 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:32.120 from here. It's almost as if, yeah, understanding the other 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:34.599 person and making sure that they feel understood it is 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.160 almost more important than actually solving the problem. Yeah. I know, 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.440 oftentimes in these conversations with my wife, I immediately jumped 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:45.520 to the nuts and bolts, you know, solving the problem, 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:48.520 when maybe that's not necessarily what's needed in the moments. 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.440 I think often reaction sometimes though for us, Oh my gosh. 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:53.360 And I don't want to generalize all men, but I 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.920 don't know, at least at least for me, default for sure, 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:57.400 like let me fix this for you, And she's like, 0:10:57.440 --> 0:10:59.840 that's that's not what I'm after here. Yeah. Yeah, And 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:01.400 she even told me, she's just like, I just want 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:06.120 you to say I'm sorry that sucks. And I've I've 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:08.360 taken that to heart and I say that often now. 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.200 It's a part of my my tool kit. But but 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:14.319 as something else that stuck out to me is when 0:11:14.320 --> 0:11:17.479 you wrote your relationship with money is governed less by 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.120 what you know about money and how it is that 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:22.200 you experience yourself and others. You know, this is kind 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:23.680 of going back to what we just talked about, you know, 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:27.280 the difference between financial therapist and a CFP. But the 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:29.720 thing is like, if that's the case, then is the 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:32.680 solution to our money problems? Is it less about learning 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.520 to budget or you know, opening a roth ira, and 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.880 is it more about doing some of this internal work ourselves. Yeah, 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.000 I think that's the position that I've landed in, and 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:42.959 it's been a long journey to get to this point. 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.760 But there's certainly a place for increasing your financial literacy 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:48.800 and knowledge of how money works so that you can 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:53.160 do it well or appropriately. But the challenges that financial 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.520 planning often ends up looking a lot like dieting, right, 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.360 It's like people know what to do, but they don't 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.080 do it, or they do it for a little bit 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.160 and then they change paths. And so that starts to 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.719 by the deeper question of what's going on inside of me? 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.920 How am I responding or reacting to money? How is 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.800 my sense of self impacting the way that I show 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:14.760 up around money? So do I have a positive view 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:17.960 of myself which says I can be resilient through financial 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.960 struggles and be comfortable with the fact of increasing success 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.640 and change, or do those things throw me off kilter. Well, 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.840 and I certainly I'm not. I don't want to discount 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.240 the value that a financial therapist can bring or the 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.280 therapist in general can bring. My My wife is actually 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.160 in school getting her master's degree right now to become 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.360 a marriage and family therapist. And I think there's like 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:42.240 so much I know, right, I'm kind of like the 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:47.000 she's running all our papers about my idiosyncrasies, which she's great. Great, 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:51.160 because you're gonna say a different word there. Yeah, I've 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:53.439 got a lot of issues that she can diagnose. Um. 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:57.000 But but is there any way And I am curious, Um, 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:00.719 how would you suggest people start to kind of d 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.320 I y and start to think through do some of 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.640 this internal work UM on their own? Like is yeah, 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.960 obviously it's great to go see UM an expert in 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:11.960 the field, But is there a way that people can 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.280 kind of begin and start to do some of this 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:17.520 dredging up some of this internal work before they even 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.640 go visit a professional. Yeah? Absolutely, well, And I see 0:13:20.720 --> 0:13:23.520 you know, Joel, you did your money origin story. It 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:26.760 looks like not too long ago. So reflection in psychology 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.280 and especially in counseling is a huge part of our growth, right, 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.880 So becoming a more reflective person is the process of 0:13:33.920 --> 0:13:36.960 integrating and making sense out of, and sometimes recovering from 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.959 those painful experiences in the past. But what you want 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.199 to do is you can start taking a money history, 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:45.280 your own money history, so you can look back and 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.520 try to remember back to your earliest points and in 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.560 time and see what are those financial events that happened, 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:54.920 and just start laying out kind of a timeline. So 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:56.640 you can even get a piece of paper out and 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.720 write a nice little timeline and put age zero and 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.920 to age wherever you are now, and just start doing 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:05.520 hash marks, and you can just make little notes. And 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.120 what we're looking for an activity like this is did 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:12.840 you have mostly positive associations and memories of around money, 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:17.679 mostly negative, some combination the two, And that very first 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:21.360 glance through it, what we wanna make sure is can 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:24.520 I see both the good and bad? Right? That's part 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.320 of secure functioning from an attachment perspective is we're not 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:30.400 overly focused on the good, but we're not also overly 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.200 focused on on the bad. So if you have a 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.360 money timeline that starts showing all kinds of painful experiences 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.280 around money, and that's all that's coming up for you, 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:40.320 that's a good sign that you probably do need to 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:43.600 go work with a financial therapist. But if you have, 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:46.680 you know, a mix of different experiences around money, and 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.000 when you look back on those more challenging or painful 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:54.360 money experiences, if you can be remain reflective and draw 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.880 out the lessons learned, then it's probably not what I 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:01.440 would call money trauma. But what happens is oftentimes we 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.640 have money trauma where it's like I don't even want 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.360 to remember those bad things that happen financially because if 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.960 I do, all become overwhelmed with the emotions and the 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:13.160 associations associated with it, And that's that's where if someone's 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.720 feeling those feelings, that's where it's it's probably most helpful. 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:17.280 Like if you do find you have the good and 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.600 the bad, and you have that more secure attachment, you 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:21.600 you can probably do some of this work on your own. 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.120 But if you feel like you're shoving things down underneath 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.040 the surface and you're like unwilling to deal with them, 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:28.640 or if everything is coming up negative, that's when you 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:33.040 probably would be Yeah, an expert would be helpful. An 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:35.120 expert would be really helpful, right because a lot of 0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.880 what we talk about is it's not always even about 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:41.440 remembering all the bad things that happen, but it's about 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.040 helping you your mind psychologically recognized that that experience is 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:48.160 over and it's in the past, and it's not about 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.880 forgetting it. It's about being able to make meaning and 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.400 help really at the physiological level, which is the core 0:15:54.480 --> 0:16:00.240 of us, recognize it's safe now that threat has passed. Yes, 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.280 it's not something that's currently hanging over your head where 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:04.720 you feel like you have to be on high alert. 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.440 Like maybe, yeah, there was a period, say right out 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.240 of college where you were incredibly low on funds and 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.160 you were kind of living paycheck to paycheck. That threat 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:15.840 of feeling like you're about to get evicted. Uh, you're 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.560 saying essentially that is something we can carry into our future. 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:22.720 That's affecting us now absolutely, Okay, Yeah, I gotta say 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.720 to you're right, like and and going back to you 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:26.520 mentioned my money origin story. That's one of those things 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.040 where there were there was there was certainly a combo 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:30.840 of good and bad things when it came to money 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.920 and how I viewed money and even those negative things. 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.720 I feel like for a while, especially in my early 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.120 mid twenties, like they kind of influenced how I did 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.080 everything when it came to how I handled money. And 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:46.440 now I've done some work and I've grown and I 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:49.800 feel like those things are memories and they're still impactful, 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.760 but they don't hold the same weight or sway over 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:56.240 me that they did like ten years ago. Yeah, that's 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:58.760 exactly right, And Jel, I think you're on on the 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.800 point there is what that work looks like can be 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:03.840 varied for a lot of different people, but it is 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.280 you became curious at some level about how is my 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.440 past shaping my present? What do I need to learn 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.840 or grow into something different now? And that can help 0:17:14.359 --> 0:17:17.119 bring resolution to those painful things that happened in the past. 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.720 And you know the gift of talking with many many 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:24.399 money experts in a wide variety of fields, most of 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:27.800 them have had some pretty defining, painful experiences around money 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:30.719 that sent them on the transformational journey. Or if your 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:34.200 listeners are familiar with a hero's journey, Um, that's another 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.400 lens that I like to use in my my work 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.960 with clients, is that doing your money work is very 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:43.240 much a hero's journey. Absolutely, Yeah, And so doing that 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.720 work yourself. That can be one way you arrived to 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:49.280 that point, but I think a partner, somebody, a significant 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:54.000 other can also be the refiner's fire, as you wrote, 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.359 and seek to you know, evolving your relationships. So we're 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:58.399 actually going to talk more about that. We're gonna talk 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.359 about couples, uh, and finance. We're gonna get to all 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:12.560 of that right after this break. We're back from break. 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:17.480 We're still talking with financial therapist Ed Combs. And sometimes 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.920 it's helpful to know that the struggles you're facing aren't unique. 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.600 And I think sometimes we're like, nobody knows what I've 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.520 gone through, nobody else can identify, and you feel you 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:28.520 feel alone in what you've gone through, and that makes 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.280 it even more difficult. Um, and that maybe even makes 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:34.920 the negative things you've experienced feel bigger than they actually were. 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:36.640 So yeah, well, what are maybe some of the most 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.840 common issues that you find yourself helping folks with at 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.520 your practice, So that maybe, um, how money listeners can realize, 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:49.200 Oh wait, that's not completely abnormal. Yeah, absolutely, So one 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:52.440 of the biggest dynamics is around spending and saving. And 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.080 you know, on the surface, it looks like we're having 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.080 a fight about spending and saving, but often times where 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.320 it's a fight over power and control and influence and 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:06.199 mutual respect and so um. When I meet with the 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:09.959 my couples around these issues, certainly I'm trying to understand 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:13.600 their attachment styles because that's their relationship blueprint about how 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:16.560 they're going to experience relationships. I want to know about 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.960 their money history, and I want to know what they've 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.480 done in the past to try to resolve this right 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.960 because I want them to get more and more creative 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.960 about being responsible for solving the problems. In the long run, 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:30.600 they're going to live with each other and not be 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.359 seeing me, and so I want them to be empowered 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.800 around being able to find their own resolutions. My job 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:40.960 is to help facilitate them in that direction. So common 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.600 things are are certainly some degree of poverty or financial scarcity, 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.960 and childhood is often a backdrop to the present day problems. 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:50.959 I've had quite a handful of clients that grew up 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:56.240 with affluent or wealthy parents that really mismanaged the finances, 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.280 and so while there was this income and wealth, there's 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.040 also high degrees of financial stress and anxiety, and so 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.280 that mismatched often continues forward for a lot of clients 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.399 problems around financial transparency and being honest about how much 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.639 money has been spent. There's another big issue that comes up. 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.920 And I think all those issues probably sound familiar to 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:19.440 a lot of folks in one way or another. These 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.639 just different dynamics that we are faced with. And so 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:25.399 let's let's kind of dive into two dating before there's marriage. 0:20:25.400 --> 0:20:27.720 We've got dating. Uh, and then you know, first of all, 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:31.399 how important is it to discuss finances with someone who 0:20:31.440 --> 0:20:35.280 you are building a relationship with? And uh and specifically, 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:37.399 you know, I want to know how how soon should 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.960 a couple actually have this conversation? As soon as you 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.040 have your first kiss, it's time to have the first 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:45.440 money conversation. Okay, Right, so right after that hot and heavy, 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.719 sweet makeout session, you dive into your financial stuff. So 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:51.959 tell me about your you know, your balance sheet, right 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:54.639 out and heavy makeout session. There you go. You can 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.960 leave that for the second date. No, But what I 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.119 would would encourage people listening to think about is in 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.960 that dating sequence, right, you're over time getting to know 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:06.960 whether you like being in their company in general, whether 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:10.160 there's a sense of emotional compatibility, whether there's a sense 0:21:10.200 --> 0:21:14.040 of sexual intimacy and compatibility and whatever that pacing or 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.760 framework is for you. And so in the same sense, 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:21.920 money becomes another natural point in that dating sequence where 0:21:21.960 --> 0:21:24.560 you want to start to get to know this person financially, 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.159 and it's about what are their preferences, what are the 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:32.280 things that they don't like? Can they be reflective on uh, 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:35.160 lessons learned on money? Are they able to talk about 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:39.080 goals and ambitions? What's their family history around money? Like 0:21:40.160 --> 0:21:45.000 those are all really important starter points to engauging the 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.800 other person's readiness to engage in a healthy and productive 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.480 financial relationship with you, Because if your relationship is going 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:55.320 to progress forward, your life will be intertwined financially. There's 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.000 just not a way around it. How do you create 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.600 that open place, because yeah, you don't want to just 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:01.920 be like, all right, it's it now, let me see 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:04.359 your credit score. You know you probably do want to 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:06.000 cover stuff like that, But how do you do it 0:22:06.040 --> 0:22:09.959 in a way that's gonna like foster healthy communication and 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:12.280 where it feels like a safe place where you can 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:14.560 kind of talk about those things as opposed to feeling 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:18.240 like you're just pestering someone to get their financial details 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:20.720 out In the open. Yeah, and so I think you 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.119 really the word safe place right. So, if you're in 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:28.280 that newly dating or early stages relationship, it may feel 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:30.800 a little awkward to tentative to lead into the conversation. 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.800 And I think the other big framing is it's not 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:37.639 a one time conversation. This is an ongoing conversation where 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.840 we're gonna open up these questions and sometimes it will 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:42.760 be casual, maybe it's over a beer or a glass 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:46.080 of wine. If you're moving further into that relationship, maybe 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:48.560 it becomes more structured what we do sit down and 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.520 look at each other's patterns of spending. What does that 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:55.159 feel like to become more financially transparent with this other person? 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:57.639 So it's you know, at some point you want to 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:00.440 get financially naked with the person. Know it's not on 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:02.440 the first day, probably not in the first month, but 0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.720 over time, if the relationship is maturing and headed in 0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:09.840 that direction where you see a longer term together, you 0:23:09.880 --> 0:23:13.840 really do want to work on that. And this is 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:16.080 assuming you're in the position of being proactive. There might 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:19.679 be some people listening thinking, holy crap, what is this 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:23.440 guy talking about. I don't want to do that. That 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:26.200 sounds terrifying to me. And if that's where you're at, 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.760 completely understandable, no problem. But as we're talking about earlier, 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:31.399 that maybe is a signal that it is time for 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:33.440 you to start doing some of your own money work. 0:23:33.880 --> 0:23:36.720 And there's plenty of great books. You guys mentioned my book. 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:39.720 I really appreciate that there's plenty of other great money 0:23:39.760 --> 0:23:42.359 books out there that look more at your personal relationship 0:23:42.400 --> 0:23:46.520 with money than at the numbers and spreadsheets and strategy side, 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:50.720 as important as that is. Yeah, well, so specifically, I 0:23:50.760 --> 0:23:53.000 mean you said get getting financially naked, Like what exactly 0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:56.080 does that look like? Like, let's let's get specific with details, 0:23:56.119 --> 0:23:59.280 like what kind of information should should we be sharing? 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:01.960 Because we you know, we joke about sharing a credit score, 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.600 or you know, we might joke about student lows or 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:06.879 something like that. But but like, I guess what what 0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.560 what is some practical advice for folks as to you know, 0:24:09.640 --> 0:24:12.800 what they should consider sharing with their partner? Right, So, 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:17.760 on the objective side, it's your budget or spending patterns, 0:24:18.440 --> 0:24:22.000 a net worth statement, and credit score. And this is 0:24:22.240 --> 0:24:25.880 not to judge them, but to just have a sense 0:24:25.920 --> 0:24:29.399 of starting mutuality because you're not going to bring the 0:24:29.440 --> 0:24:32.760 same thing to the table financially. But this is part 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:35.919 of this bigger picture that I'm I'm really encouraging more 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:39.639 and more couples towards, which is financial intimacy, right. And 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:42.159 when you have financial intimacy in the relationship, nothing is 0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:46.160 off limits and you can talk about anything safely, openly, 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:50.359 candidly with each other. So this is where that attachment 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:55.560 framework really helps people understand. If you're struggling to think 0:24:55.600 --> 0:24:57.960 about doing this, we may need to look at your 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:00.719 attachment history and your patterns of really and ship bonding 0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:03.800 and safety and security and transparency. So do do you 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:05.320 think maybe that's part of it then too, So we're 0:25:05.320 --> 0:25:09.920 telling you said you mentioned the credit score, sharing, spending patterns. 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:12.560 Those are some of those objective things that we do 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:15.199 need to share with the person that we're growing closer to. 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:19.080 Do you think there's an important thing that we're like 0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:23.320 to those two people should also work towards knowing each 0:25:23.320 --> 0:25:26.119 other's attachment style so they can understand each other in 0:25:26.200 --> 0:25:28.159 a deeper way. And is they're like, is there a 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:29.679 way that they can they can do that kind of 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:32.040 find that that that out about themselves and so that 0:25:32.080 --> 0:25:34.560 they can then maybe have more of a common language 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:36.480 to be able to in an understanding of kind of 0:25:36.480 --> 0:25:40.280 where where they're you know, significant others coming from. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:25:40.359 --> 0:25:43.840 So I have an attachment style quiz on my website, Healthy, 0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:46.639 Love and Money dot com. You can also google attachment 0:25:46.640 --> 0:25:50.120 style quizzes. There's several different resources out plenty of resources 0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:52.880 out there to start to become familiar with it. And 0:25:52.920 --> 0:25:57.040 you're right, attachment styles can become a language or relationship 0:25:57.160 --> 0:25:59.800 framework for you to understand both who am I now 0:26:00.680 --> 0:26:02.399 and where do I want to go in the future. 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:04.399 And that's been one of the most rewarding things um 0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:06.440 as I talked to people that are taking the attachment stock, 0:26:06.560 --> 0:26:09.800 was is like, oh, oh, I can see how I 0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:12.400 used to be and now after some time in therapy, 0:26:12.480 --> 0:26:15.600 I can see that I'm more much more secure. Right, 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:19.240 So it gives a framework for relational growth as well, 0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:24.040 and as you dive deeper into understanding your attachment styles, 0:26:24.440 --> 0:26:27.400 it just creates more and more clarity about why am 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:29.760 I the way I am, Where are my triggers or 0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:34.399 sore spots around relationship connection? And then what do I 0:26:34.440 --> 0:26:37.280 need to do to start getting some healing and relief? 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:39.679 Around that, and it often then the other partner can 0:26:39.680 --> 0:26:42.880 also recognize, Oh, this isn't just about me not being 0:26:42.920 --> 0:26:45.760 responsive to them or the way that I'm responsive. It's 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:49.400 about their attachment history and the unmet emotional and relational 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:52.800 needs that they had. As you are explaining this, and 0:26:53.040 --> 0:26:54.959 I mean, I realized, I've had a lot of conversations 0:26:55.000 --> 0:26:57.880 with my wife about money, and I don't know if 0:26:57.920 --> 0:27:00.400 maybe it's just because we have similar attachment styles, we've 0:27:00.400 --> 0:27:03.800 been able to work forward, and I guess neither of 0:27:03.880 --> 0:27:06.760 us have really been all that frustrated with how the 0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:09.440 other handles money, and so I guess in that way 0:27:09.480 --> 0:27:11.560 we've got lucky. But because of that, this isn't something 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:14.760 we've ever addressed head on, you know, we haven't gotten down, 0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:18.240 uh and really picked apart some of these attachment styles 0:27:18.240 --> 0:27:19.719 and what that means to us. Makes me wonder if 0:27:19.720 --> 0:27:22.280 there's a fifth attachment style of nerdy, because that's Matt's 0:27:22.520 --> 0:27:25.399 attachment for money. That is that one? Did I just 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:28.240 come up with a new one? Is this ground members? 0:27:28.280 --> 0:27:32.359 I don't know, Yeah, Excel is that one? Just? But 0:27:33.000 --> 0:27:36.959 so attachments is really about your interpersonal bonding, right, like 0:27:37.000 --> 0:27:41.080 how you experienced interpersonal relationships, and then the way you 0:27:41.080 --> 0:27:46.360 approach money can be different than your attachment style psychologically speaking. 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:50.080 But if you're anxious, then you're more likely to feel 0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:54.600 rejected or uncertain in the relationship about how to navigate 0:27:54.640 --> 0:27:58.160 these difficult money conversations with your partner, whereas if you're 0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:00.520 more on that avoiding continuous like I'm not going to 0:28:00.560 --> 0:28:02.879 include you in what's going on here financially, like I 0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:06.240 can't really trust you to understand me, so why would 0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:08.760 I let you in? Yeah? Well, and Ed, you know, 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:10.960 when we were talking about some of the specifics to share, 0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:15.159 you share that there are some different objective you know, 0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:16.800 pieces of data that we need to share, like your 0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:19.040 credit score, things like that. Are there is there a 0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:22.720 set of subjective details or I guess goals that we 0:28:22.760 --> 0:28:25.440 need to talk about with our partners. Yeah, that's where 0:28:25.480 --> 0:28:30.399 we started getting into. Um, both the positive side of 0:28:30.440 --> 0:28:33.520 things and the challenging or dash negative side of things 0:28:33.600 --> 0:28:37.639 is like your fears, your anxieties, maybe even places of 0:28:37.680 --> 0:28:40.880 shame around money, like maybe I know what I should 0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:43.360 be doing with money, but I'm not doing it, or 0:28:43.400 --> 0:28:44.920 you know, I spend money in this way or that 0:28:44.960 --> 0:28:48.560 way that I feel embarrassed about maybe I feel controlled 0:28:48.560 --> 0:28:50.200 by my parents and the way that they manage the 0:28:50.200 --> 0:28:54.560 money between me and them. Maybe I've felt financially responsible 0:28:54.600 --> 0:28:58.320 for other family members that I feel resentful for. So 0:28:58.360 --> 0:29:02.560 those are the challenging inside of money dynamics and relationships. 0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:06.400 But then it's also about sharing your hopes, your dreams, 0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:10.719 your aspirations, and surprisingly a lot of people really struggle 0:29:10.760 --> 0:29:17.080 in this area to actually adequately articulate hopes, dreams, um values. 0:29:17.840 --> 0:29:20.320 And so that's an area to dig into as a 0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:24.640 couple and to start exploring and cultivating and um you know, 0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:27.200 for some in a very simple way, I'm a big 0:29:27.280 --> 0:29:29.680 dreamer and my wife is much more practical, And so 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:33.360 that's a dynamic that gets challenging. Is it's no problem 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:35.000 for me, like, oh, I'm dreaming about a lake house 0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:38.640 and a boat and I wanted a vacation, and and 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:42.520 her head's like just registering dollar signals for all of 0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:45.040 this instead of just tracking with me and be like, wow, 0:29:45.040 --> 0:29:47.560 that's really interesting. Tell me more about why that's important 0:29:47.560 --> 0:29:52.080 to you, right, Because there is meaning for me around 0:29:52.120 --> 0:29:55.160 those and and this is that other side of mutuality 0:29:55.280 --> 0:29:58.080 is being able to draw my wife into that place 0:29:58.160 --> 0:30:02.680 of hopes, dreams, and aspiration ends, but also in staying 0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:05.200 balanced with the practical and holding both ends of those 0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:08.200 things together. So that's those are much more of the 0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:13.400 subjective elements of managing money life together. Yeah, good stuff. 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:15.480 All right, We've got some more questions to get to 0:30:15.720 --> 0:30:18.680 about how couples can handle money well together and including 0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:21.560 we're gonna talk about how to handle conflicts, because that's 0:30:21.640 --> 0:30:24.720 kind of inevitable when you're in love with someone else 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:26.520 and you've got to talk about money. So we'll get 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:37.600 to some questions on that right after this break. Alright, 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:39.480 we're back from the break and we are speaking with 0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:44.240 a financial therapist, Ed Combs. Uh, Ed, how do you 0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:47.040 help couples who are on completely different pages when it 0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:49.480 comes to how it is that they handle money if 0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:52.360 they're just not in and yang? Seriously, I mean, in 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:53.920 some ways I feel like it can be helpful because 0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:57.120 it can help couples to balance out, but oftentimes I 0:30:57.160 --> 0:30:59.600 think it can keep you from being able to, you know, 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:03.040 progress forward at all. How would you help out in 0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:08.360 that situation? Yeah, so absolutely true. Those are big dynamics 0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:11.400 to draw out. When I talk with couples, I normalize 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:13.600 the reality that you're going to be similar and different 0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:17.920 around money, and it's more often where we're different around 0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:20.440 money that the conflict starts to show up. But this 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:23.200 is where I like to take them a step deeper 0:31:23.240 --> 0:31:26.960 before we try to get together on the topic. We've 0:31:27.000 --> 0:31:31.880 been talking throughout this show about money histories, and a 0:31:31.920 --> 0:31:34.920 lot of times couples know bits and pieces of each 0:31:34.960 --> 0:31:37.600 other's money history, but they don't really they haven't really 0:31:37.600 --> 0:31:40.600 ever heard it in kind of a full story format, 0:31:41.040 --> 0:31:43.960 and maybe you you haven't. They haven't done it for themselves, right, 0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:49.160 So if you're fighting about these differences, the big starting 0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:53.080 point is getting curious about where do these differences come from? 0:31:53.080 --> 0:31:56.920 Where my history and life did this outlook on money 0:31:56.960 --> 0:31:59.760 come from? What does that mean or represent to me? 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:03.480 I am I doing it that way? And then why 0:32:03.640 --> 0:32:05.840 for the same for the other person, Because the reality 0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:08.880 is there are like there are reasons and motivations for 0:32:09.000 --> 0:32:11.960 why we were doing what we're doing with money. They 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:15.160 may not always be immediately conscious or aware, but if 0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:19.480 we go back into our money history and can start 0:32:19.520 --> 0:32:24.040 to dig into what different emotional emotions got attached with 0:32:24.040 --> 0:32:27.680 different money experiences, we can usually start to fare it 0:32:28.080 --> 0:32:31.800 out So as a more practical example, UM, I had 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:34.800 a couple where the wife was would do a lot 0:32:34.840 --> 0:32:37.320 more of the shopping. She would get secretive about it, 0:32:37.840 --> 0:32:39.920 and the husband would be kind of controlling of her 0:32:40.040 --> 0:32:43.120 about about her spending. And so they came to me 0:32:43.280 --> 0:32:45.880 to get help around this because she would promise I'm 0:32:45.880 --> 0:32:48.120 gonna I'm not gonna spend any more, and then six 0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:50.240 months to a year later she would be back to 0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:53.440 the shopping and spending. And so that was a really 0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:57.320 frustrating cycle for for the couple. And you know, I 0:32:57.320 --> 0:32:59.200 think some people would hear this and be, oh, well, 0:32:59.240 --> 0:33:02.440 there's abuse in the relationship. Well, no, it wasn't really 0:33:02.440 --> 0:33:06.680 about abuse. It was about their own painful past experiences 0:33:06.720 --> 0:33:09.160 around money and in very short form, trying to protect 0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:14.120 their confidentiality. Uh. She had lost her mother in childhood 0:33:14.800 --> 0:33:17.160 and one of those ways that her family kind of 0:33:17.320 --> 0:33:19.560 if you will, took care of her as she aged 0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:23.280 is they would take her shopping to make her feel better. Right, 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:26.600 And so as she was now an adult married woman, 0:33:26.800 --> 0:33:29.959 anytime that she started to feel stressed, her brain associated 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:34.240 stress not feeling good, go shopping. Well. This was in 0:33:34.280 --> 0:33:36.520 perfect contrast to her husband, who had grown up in 0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:39.120 an environment where he was very sensitive to his mother 0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:43.680 and the financial challenges that they were experiencing. And when 0:33:43.680 --> 0:33:46.640 he would go, he would call going shopping, and his 0:33:46.720 --> 0:33:49.280 older brothers would not think twice about getting a bunch 0:33:49.280 --> 0:33:52.160 of clothes at the department store. Meanwhile, he's watching his 0:33:52.240 --> 0:33:55.800 mom's face kind of like drop and sorrow and overwhelmed, 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:58.720 and he would restrict what he would buy to try 0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:01.280 to lessen the blow to mom. So it's where you're 0:34:01.400 --> 0:34:03.560 doing that deeper work. It helps you realize, oh wait, 0:34:04.400 --> 0:34:06.440 this person, the love of my life, is not doing 0:34:06.440 --> 0:34:09.600 this to sabotage me or to ruin our financial goals 0:34:09.680 --> 0:34:11.719 or plans. It comes from this deeper place and you 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:15.080 can like sympathize and empathize more with with your sement 0:34:15.120 --> 0:34:17.640 bic another. Then right, that's exactly right, And that's the 0:34:17.680 --> 0:34:22.200 exact goal of that type of exercise. Is for most couples, 0:34:23.239 --> 0:34:26.279 that's where they land in that type of exercise. If 0:34:26.560 --> 0:34:29.600 they're not able to step into that empathy and sympathy 0:34:29.680 --> 0:34:33.160 for each other's past stories, that just means that there's 0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:36.759 often even more emotional pain and hurt um for them 0:34:36.800 --> 0:34:38.240 that they need to be able to work through before 0:34:38.239 --> 0:34:41.600 they can really see each other's U side of the 0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:45.640 story and how that's shape them. Yeah. Yeah, there were 0:34:45.640 --> 0:34:48.800 some recent stats that came out about financial infidelity and 0:34:49.080 --> 0:34:51.000 that if I think credit cards dot Com did a 0:34:51.040 --> 0:34:53.280 survey and it certainly seems like it's on the rise 0:34:53.360 --> 0:34:57.080 where couples are hiding spending from one another, or they 0:34:57.160 --> 0:35:00.839 have maybe a credit card that they haven't that they 0:35:00.840 --> 0:35:05.120 haven't revealed to their partner. Um. And and and you actually 0:35:05.280 --> 0:35:08.480 you actually detail in the book about UM some financial 0:35:08.480 --> 0:35:10.640 infidelity that happened inside of your marriage, and it's a 0:35:10.760 --> 0:35:13.560 very personal story. UM. But since you shared in your book, 0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:16.120 would you mind sharing it with us here? Yeah? Absolutely So. 0:35:16.200 --> 0:35:20.239 Financial infidelity is a breach in relational trust, both implicit 0:35:20.320 --> 0:35:24.480 and explicit expectations around money. Right. And so for me, 0:35:25.560 --> 0:35:27.759 my wife had launched her dental practice. This has been 0:35:27.800 --> 0:35:31.120 a much part of larger part of our ongoing marital dynamic. 0:35:31.160 --> 0:35:33.360 And part of why I got here is out of 0:35:33.400 --> 0:35:34.960 values of why I was. I have no problem with 0:35:35.000 --> 0:35:38.560 women making more money than men, but at a lived experience, 0:35:38.640 --> 0:35:42.120 it's played on some of my own insecurities. And so 0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:45.320 after my I went back to school to become a therapist, 0:35:45.960 --> 0:35:49.319 you know, wasn't uh I left the working world, wasn't 0:35:49.320 --> 0:35:50.919 making money. It had been a stay at home dad, 0:35:51.640 --> 0:35:53.800 and was trying to get back into getting my counseling 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:56.040 practice up and going. And by this time I thought, 0:35:56.160 --> 0:35:58.239 you know, oh, I'll figure it out. I help my 0:35:58.239 --> 0:36:00.759 wife grow her dental practice. And how hard it can 0:36:00.760 --> 0:36:04.120 it be to grow counseling practice. And let me just say, 0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:09.880 it was nothing like growing a gental practice. Harder, much harder, 0:36:09.920 --> 0:36:12.360 because you know, we would go to parties and people 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:13.759 would find out my wife as a dentist and they 0:36:13.760 --> 0:36:15.800 would say, oh, can I have your card? And I 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:17.640 would say I'm a therapist, and they would kind of 0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:20.880 walk away from me, like everybody knows that, hey, guys, 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:23.160 they need a cleaning. But most people like think that 0:36:23.200 --> 0:36:25.840 they're pretty good internally, you know, like they think that 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:29.600 even though that's probably not necessarily true. Well, and in therapist, 0:36:29.680 --> 0:36:31.680 we don't work with people that we know like that, 0:36:31.719 --> 0:36:33.879 we don't have we don't we have regular engagement with. 0:36:33.960 --> 0:36:37.919 So that was so there was so those dynamics. There 0:36:38.040 --> 0:36:41.440 was so many different layers to this this cake, so 0:36:41.520 --> 0:36:45.640 to speak. But from a financial infidelity standpoint is I, 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:48.160 you know, had made my projections about how quickly a 0:36:48.200 --> 0:36:51.800 practice would get going, use some money, credit card money 0:36:51.840 --> 0:36:56.879 to get things going, and got stuck in this rationalization like, well, 0:36:56.920 --> 0:36:59.120 she makes money of money. If this doesn't work out, 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:01.480 she'll be able to cut it. And so I just 0:37:01.520 --> 0:37:04.360 didn't tell her about how bad things were getting. And 0:37:04.360 --> 0:37:06.399 I've had some other mental health things that we're really 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:09.799 starting to spiral out of control, for me falling into 0:37:09.920 --> 0:37:13.880 a pretty significant, major depression. And so it's this complex 0:37:13.920 --> 0:37:17.640 constellation of experiences that led me to not be transparent 0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:20.440 with my wife about where we're at financially. Eventually it 0:37:20.440 --> 0:37:23.319 did break through, and we had to work through that 0:37:23.440 --> 0:37:26.279 and make meaning makes sense out of how do we 0:37:26.320 --> 0:37:29.400 get here. Fortunately, we had had quite a number of 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:32.000 years of financial transparency and trust prior to that, and 0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:35.799 so she could see kind of contextually how I got there. 0:37:35.840 --> 0:37:38.320 It didn't mean that it didn't doesn't sting or didn't 0:37:38.320 --> 0:37:41.000 sting at that time, And you know, we worked very 0:37:41.040 --> 0:37:44.680 hard now to maintain financial transparency. And this is a 0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:47.680 really challenging place for a lot of couples where one 0:37:47.800 --> 0:37:51.040 or both people are in business because income variability is 0:37:51.600 --> 0:37:55.560 part of the journey, and so you're trying to make 0:37:55.560 --> 0:37:58.040 projections and some level of commitment to this is what 0:37:58.080 --> 0:38:02.160 I can bring into the family. But then reality hits 0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:06.240 and it's not always pretty. What if someone is actually 0:38:06.280 --> 0:38:10.120 in an unhealthy or even an abusive relationship? You know, 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:12.239 like money can oftentimes I think it can be used 0:38:12.239 --> 0:38:14.040 as a tool. It can maybe even be used as 0:38:14.040 --> 0:38:16.680 a weapon. Uh, And so what are maybe some signs 0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:19.279 that this is going on in a relationship? And then 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:21.759 what should someone do about it if they realize that 0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:25.040 they are in an abusive or toxic relationship? Yeah, so 0:38:25.360 --> 0:38:28.080 straightaway get to a couple of therapists as fast as 0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:30.719 you can, even if you have that sense or your 0:38:30.800 --> 0:38:33.839 question in it. I mean, do your Google research if 0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:35.640 you need to, but it's better just go ahead and 0:38:35.640 --> 0:38:38.359 get into a couple of therapists, because it's like it's 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:40.120 better to have the chest pain and go to the 0:38:40.160 --> 0:38:42.879 doctor and have the doctors say, oh, this is uh 0:38:43.239 --> 0:38:46.800 something you know, mild, not not a big deal, or no, 0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:50.160 you're about to have a heart attack. Right, you want 0:38:50.200 --> 0:38:52.480 to get in front of professional eyes that work with 0:38:52.520 --> 0:38:56.799 abusive relationships regularly so that they can help you differentiate 0:38:56.840 --> 0:39:00.520 because it's very hard people when they're in the abusive 0:39:00.560 --> 0:39:04.640 relationship to come to terms and work through that. And 0:39:04.719 --> 0:39:08.120 so my encouragement even if you think that you're in 0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:10.080 an abusive relationship, just go ahead and get into a 0:39:10.080 --> 0:39:13.400 couple's therapy or go find find a therapist and start 0:39:13.400 --> 0:39:16.680 asking your questions and sharing your story. You're so miird 0:39:16.680 --> 0:39:18.120 in it that you're not gonna be able to see 0:39:18.120 --> 0:39:20.879 it clearly. Yeah. Well yeah, And if someone has been 0:39:20.920 --> 0:39:23.279 listening and and they're like, yeah, okay, it sounds like 0:39:23.280 --> 0:39:26.120 I need to see a financial therapist or yeah, where 0:39:26.120 --> 0:39:28.399 should they go? Is there is there a resource where 0:39:28.440 --> 0:39:30.239 you tell people to turn to find someone close to 0:39:30.280 --> 0:39:34.400 them that can help them out in this area. Yeah. Absolutely. 0:39:34.440 --> 0:39:37.520 So if you're thinking my issue is more kind of 0:39:37.600 --> 0:39:41.120 around how I interact with money, the Financial Therapy Association 0:39:41.280 --> 0:39:44.120 is a wonderful starting place. They have a find a 0:39:44.160 --> 0:39:48.560 therapist tool there, So that's for the financial therapy side 0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:52.800 of things, and then for a couples therapists. Psychology Today 0:39:52.800 --> 0:39:55.520 has a great therapist directory in listening there and you 0:39:55.520 --> 0:39:59.200 can search by all kinds of different criteria for therapist 0:39:59.280 --> 0:40:01.400 in your local area. Uh. And and I wanted to 0:40:01.400 --> 0:40:04.000 say ed, like, I know some people might say that's 0:40:04.040 --> 0:40:06.960 an odd choice of an episode to do on Valentine's Day, 0:40:07.000 --> 0:40:09.840 to to to talk of all these things, But I think, like, um, 0:40:09.880 --> 0:40:13.040 I think sometimes maybe we misunderstand what love is in 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:16.799 our culture, and I think truly loving somebody else is, 0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:20.160 and truly loving yourself is doing some of these this 0:40:20.280 --> 0:40:24.160 hard work and growing together over time in ways that 0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:26.880 aren't necessarily easy. And so well, Matt and I, we 0:40:26.960 --> 0:40:29.200 really appreciate you coming on and talking about some of 0:40:29.239 --> 0:40:32.040 the harder things that we have to deal with, particularly 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:34.360 like getting on the same page about money and and 0:40:34.440 --> 0:40:36.839 doing some of that. Yeah, those deeper dives into kind 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:39.120 of our money history. So um, yeah, thank you so 0:40:39.200 --> 0:40:40.640 much for coming on the show. And where can our 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:44.160 listeners find out more about you and what you're up to? Yeah? Absolutely, 0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:47.960 Uh my website, Healthy Love and Money dot com is 0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:50.600 probably the best place to get started from there. Um 0:40:50.680 --> 0:40:54.760 have blogs, social media links, my book that you guys mentioned. 0:40:54.760 --> 0:40:57.160 I'm very excited about a new course that I'm watching, 0:40:57.200 --> 0:41:00.640 The Couple's Guide to Financial Intimacy. It's if you're thinking 0:41:00.960 --> 0:41:03.319 you want to do the deep dive, Um, that's gonna 0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:05.960 be a year long program that you can check out 0:41:06.040 --> 0:41:08.600 and see if that's a good fit for you. That's awesome. 0:41:08.600 --> 0:41:10.239 We'll make sure to link to all of that and 0:41:10.400 --> 0:41:12.960 uh and specifically to the links where folks can learn 0:41:13.000 --> 0:41:15.560 more about that course. Ed. Thank you for joining us 0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:18.160 on the podcast today, Joelo Matt has been quite a 0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:20.080 pleasure talking with you. Keep up the great work, and 0:41:20.120 --> 0:41:22.839 I look forward to being a guest in the future. Yeah, Joe, 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:25.080 hopefully we will be able to have ed back on 0:41:25.239 --> 0:41:28.000 because these topics are so important for us to talk about, 0:41:28.320 --> 0:41:30.480 and I'm glad that we were able to dive into 0:41:30.480 --> 0:41:33.160 them today. Uh. Specifically, what was your big takeaway from 0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:35.800 this episode? All right, that's a good question in this conversation, Well, 0:41:35.840 --> 0:41:38.480 I think the biggest, the biggest teguway I had was 0:41:38.560 --> 0:41:42.200 that one the common issues he mentioned are ones that 0:41:42.320 --> 0:41:45.360 plague all of us, even even people that are good 0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:49.920 with money still have money arguments or still have money disagreements. 0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:52.640 And and I think what he pointed at was the 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:56.120 fact that there is almost always something deeper going on there, 0:41:56.360 --> 0:41:59.320 or maybe even always right where it is more about 0:41:59.360 --> 0:42:02.839 like power or dynamics, or or you want respect from 0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:05.279 your partner or um you know, there's a lack of 0:42:05.320 --> 0:42:07.880 transparency going on and that you feel uncomfortable with. And 0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:10.560 so I think, you know, when when you are having, 0:42:10.760 --> 0:42:13.319 you know, money fights or disagreements, it's important to kind 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:16.040 of like go another level deeper in order to kind 0:42:16.080 --> 0:42:18.239 of assess, well, why is it that I'm reacting this 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:20.040 way or why is it that I'm so upset right 0:42:20.080 --> 0:42:22.719 now because my partner spent money in that way, which 0:42:22.800 --> 0:42:25.040 I would never spend money in that way. And I 0:42:25.120 --> 0:42:27.239 know that over the years, like I've had to come 0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:28.759 to grips with some of those things in my own 0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:31.000 life where it's like, oh, that's that's my insecurity coming out. 0:42:31.040 --> 0:42:33.600 That's not that's not Emily's fault, that's my fault. Um. 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:36.960 And so yeah, digging that next layer deeper into what's 0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:40.879 happening beneath the surface is so crucial to actually being 0:42:40.920 --> 0:42:43.880 able to talk about money in a more productive way 0:42:43.920 --> 0:42:45.879 with the person that you love, with your significant other. 0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:47.560 That's so true. And you know, you kind of talked 0:42:47.600 --> 0:42:50.080 about transparency and how there might need to be more 0:42:50.120 --> 0:42:52.000 of that when it comes to some of the disagreements 0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:54.480 we have. I left how when he talked about what 0:42:54.560 --> 0:42:58.239 he called financial infidelity on his part. It doesn't have 0:42:58.280 --> 0:43:00.400 to be this giant, massive thing. It can just literally 0:43:00.440 --> 0:43:03.080 be a lack of transparency where you're not sharing information. 0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:06.480 I think sometimes when you say financial infidelity, it sounds 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:10.680 like this massive, big, you know, breach of trust, when 0:43:10.680 --> 0:43:12.920 in reality it can start, you know, and it is, 0:43:13.040 --> 0:43:15.719 but it likely started very innocently, you know, like at 0:43:15.719 --> 0:43:18.759 a very small scale where maybe you weren't quite as 0:43:18.800 --> 0:43:21.439 transparent with your spending. Uh. And so that's a little 0:43:21.480 --> 0:43:24.160 piggyback onto unto years. But my big takeaway I wanted 0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:26.799 to focus on how he talked about digging into your 0:43:26.840 --> 0:43:30.239 own history with money, and he explained how simply what 0:43:30.280 --> 0:43:32.239 you can do is just you know, draw a line, 0:43:32.280 --> 0:43:34.960 put some hash marks on there, and create a timeline. 0:43:35.360 --> 0:43:38.319 And for a culture who probably doesn't reflect as much 0:43:38.360 --> 0:43:40.759 as we need to, that to me was just a 0:43:40.800 --> 0:43:43.319 great tool, a great way to think back on your 0:43:43.360 --> 0:43:45.880 history to see if you can isolate, see if you 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.120 can find and identify some of the different events that 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:51.799 occurred in your past that might be worth sharing with 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:54.680 your partner. Right as you start to build up that relationship, 0:43:54.719 --> 0:43:57.480 as you start having some more of these important conversations 0:43:57.960 --> 0:44:00.359 that you might be able to identify some of these 0:44:00.360 --> 0:44:01.840 things that you might want to share with them, and 0:44:01.880 --> 0:44:04.319 that might allow them to get a feel for who 0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:06.400 you are, why it is that you do spend the 0:44:06.400 --> 0:44:08.319 way you do, or why it is that you don't 0:44:08.320 --> 0:44:11.120 spend money at all, and and help you come to 0:44:11.160 --> 0:44:14.640 groups of that yourself you might call milestones or you know, 0:44:14.680 --> 0:44:17.239 markers in your life that you've forgotten about. You're like, wow, 0:44:17.280 --> 0:44:19.879 that really had a pretty big impact. Yeah, it's about 0:44:19.920 --> 0:44:22.480 that self discovery, but then being able to then take 0:44:22.640 --> 0:44:26.040 that hopefully whole self to a relationship. Because you know, 0:44:26.080 --> 0:44:29.480 you combine two different people who have not you know, 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:32.040 reflected and who haven't really dealt with their past, then 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:34.480 it's kind of a recipe for disaster. Right You take 0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:36.879 two broken people bring them together as opposed to two 0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:39.279 folks who have an awareness of what they've been through 0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:41.520 and what they're looking to grow together. I think that's 0:44:41.560 --> 0:44:44.279 really important. Yeah, for sure, I like that. All right, Well, yeah, 0:44:44.320 --> 0:44:47.319 that was a fun conversation and hopefully more conversations like 0:44:47.360 --> 0:44:48.920 that in the future on how to mind and hopefully 0:44:48.960 --> 0:44:50.600 it was I mean, ultimately I like what you said 0:44:50.600 --> 0:44:52.480 there at the end too. It seems like a kind 0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:57.400 of a weird topic day, Yeah, and ultimately it is. 0:44:57.440 --> 0:45:01.120 But man, love it's hard work. It's not just like, Okay, 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:04.440 how can you afford to buy chocolate for your partner 0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:07.759 that's cheap? Like where we want to. I want to 0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:10.040 get him the cheap chocolate that doesn't say I love you. 0:45:10.080 --> 0:45:12.560 Get the good stuff from all the germ, the German chocolate, 0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:15.080 like William Brown told us about. But we wanted to 0:45:15.080 --> 0:45:17.239 take it a level deeper to really get at the 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:20.680 root of what makes relationships and love successful. And so 0:45:20.880 --> 0:45:23.399 that is why we wanted to have this conversation today, 0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:25.520 even though at times it kind of got a little 0:45:25.560 --> 0:45:28.600 more heavy, a little a little more serious. All right, Well, uh, 0:45:28.680 --> 0:45:30.880 I agree, And for you and I, what makes our 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:34.239 relationship successful is drinking good beer together and talking about 0:45:34.280 --> 0:45:36.719 money and so on today's I said, while we talked 0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:39.560 with Ed, we were drinking a grim Lilt grim as 0:45:39.600 --> 0:45:41.880 this brewery out of Brooklyn, New York. I believe they 0:45:41.880 --> 0:45:44.240 make some awesome beers and this is a golden sour 0:45:44.320 --> 0:45:46.719 aged noe barrels with tart cherries. Matt, what was your 0:45:46.760 --> 0:45:48.520 what your thoughts on this beer? Dude? This is a 0:45:48.600 --> 0:45:52.040 fantastic beer when it comes to sours, fruited sours that 0:45:52.080 --> 0:45:54.279 are barrel aged. This has everything that I'm looking for. 0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:56.680 It's got that tartness, it's got the acidity so it 0:45:56.719 --> 0:45:59.239 feels bright and crisp in your mouth. It's got the 0:45:59.280 --> 0:46:01.520 right amount of fruit. But then it's got that funkiness, 0:46:02.160 --> 0:46:04.760 some of those those woody knows, some of those at 0:46:04.840 --> 0:46:07.759 going on for sure. Oh, it is so good. It's 0:46:07.760 --> 0:46:09.520 got I mean, it checks all the boxes for what 0:46:09.520 --> 0:46:11.440 I'm looking for in a sour. You know. One of 0:46:11.440 --> 0:46:13.360 the things we we talked about when we're talking about 0:46:13.440 --> 0:46:16.640 barrel aged towers is how those barrels add a level 0:46:16.680 --> 0:46:19.879 of complexity to the flavor compared to a kettle sour, 0:46:19.960 --> 0:46:22.880 which in my opinion oftentimes can taste a little not flat, 0:46:22.920 --> 0:46:25.000 but just kind of like one note. Uh. And I 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:27.520 love that with a barrel aged tower, oftentimes you get 0:46:27.560 --> 0:46:30.440 that true depth. Uh. And that's definitely what we've got 0:46:30.440 --> 0:46:32.320 going on here. But yeah, what what your thoughts? No, 0:46:32.400 --> 0:46:33.880 I think you're right, Like you dig the cherries like 0:46:33.920 --> 0:46:36.680 a single note versus a chord, right, and yeah, and 0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:40.000 so this this beer was like a beautifully played chord 0:46:40.560 --> 0:46:44.080 um and yeah, I dug the cherries. I love cherries 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:46.200 in a beer. But then also yeah, just that strong 0:46:46.239 --> 0:46:49.279 oat presence combined with the like very tartness, a little 0:46:49.280 --> 0:46:53.120 bit of funkiness and grim makes some really good beers. Sadly, 0:46:53.120 --> 0:46:55.000 we've never been to the brewery hopefully one of these days, 0:46:55.360 --> 0:46:56.960 but this beer makes me want to go even more 0:46:57.000 --> 0:46:59.120 because it was delicious. What if we started taking like 0:46:59.160 --> 0:47:01.359 brewery trips, Like we talked about going to visit certain 0:47:01.400 --> 0:47:03.799 breweries in certain cities, and some cities have a lot 0:47:03.840 --> 0:47:06.279 of good breweries. Uh, maybe that's something new that I 0:47:06.280 --> 0:47:08.359 can prioritize in the in the coming years of money 0:47:08.440 --> 0:47:11.360 road trip. Let's do it all right? Well, Happy Valentine's 0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:13.600 to Day to everyone out there. I hope. Um, yeah, 0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:17.720 you've got some motivation to attend to your relationship even 0:47:17.719 --> 0:47:20.000 more in this coming year. After listening to this episode, 0:47:20.160 --> 0:47:22.359 we wish you the best of luck. And that's gonna 0:47:22.400 --> 0:47:24.719 do it for this episode, Matt. Until next time, Best 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:26.439 Friends Out, Best Friends Out.