1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, 2 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: and today we're discussing relational money help with financial therapist 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: Ed Combs. Yeah, so this is a timely episode since 4 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: it's a Valentine's Day today. We are really excited to 5 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,840 Speaker 1: be talking with Ed Combs. He's an internationally recognized leader 6 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: in financial therapy who has been cited by The Wall 7 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 1: Street Journal, of the AP, many others, and he has 8 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: the credentials as well. He's earned his master's degree in 9 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: business counseling and financial planning and is a licensed marriage 10 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: and family therapist. He's a certified financial planner and certified 11 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: financial therapist. He leads couples through therapy from financial despair 12 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: and frustration into financial intimacy and connection by helping them 13 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: to figure out and understand what is really going on. Uh. 14 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: And so we're gonna discuss some of the concepts in 15 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:10,199 Speaker 1: his book as well. His book is The Healthy Love 16 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: and Money Way, and in the book he explains where 17 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: our attitudes towards money stem from and what it is 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: that we should do about it. I'm really looking forward 19 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: to this conversation. Ed Combs, Welcome to the podcast. Hey, Joel, 20 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: and Matt, thanks so much for having me on today. 21 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: I'm super excited to be uh talking with you guys. 22 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: Ed We're glad to have you man. And the first 23 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 1: question we ask anybody who comes on the podcast is, well, 24 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: you know, Matt and I we like to drink craft 25 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: beer and it's something that we splore John while we're 26 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 1: saving and investing for the future. But what's that equivalent 27 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: in your life? What do you splore John in the 28 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: here and now while you're trying to also be smart 29 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: with your money. Oh well, yesterday would probably be a 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: great example of this. And it's kind of passing on 31 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: to my kid. But biking. So I'm a huge mountain 32 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: biker and yes, and I live in Charlotte, North Carolina. 33 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: Took my son skiing up in the Blue Blue Ridge 34 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: Mountains and we stopped in a great beer town, Boone, 35 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: North Carolina, nice and I saw the local bike shop 36 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: and I was like, I gotta go in there. I 37 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: just want to see what's in there and what do 38 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 1: they have to say about the biking scene here. And 39 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: of course my son like goes me entering back into 40 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: the store, starts looking at the bikes and he's like, 41 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,399 Speaker 1: dat I'm like, what I knew where this was going, 42 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 1: and he was like, this BMX bike is awesome, Like 43 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: I really wanted and you know, he's been on me 44 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 1: for who knows how long now, So we're kind of 45 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: in that store and I'm thinking, oh, okay, now my 46 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: wife is going to feel one way about this, He's 47 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: going to feel another way about this. How do I 48 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: get through this? And you know, so um he ended 49 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: up getting the bike. He had some birthday money and 50 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: Christmas money and gift card money that he was willing 51 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: to all trade in for for the bikes. So we 52 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: worked it out and then had a lovely conversation with 53 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: my wife when we got home, who was quite surprised 54 00:02:50,200 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: to see a bike after a ski trip to the mountains. 55 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: It was like, what were y'all doing? I thought ya 56 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 1: went skiing? Well, I feel like Ed fits right in 57 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: here with with with you and me. Matt was like, yeah, 58 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: we're we're at ad bikers ourselves. We talked about it, 59 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: maybe too much on the show, and our listeners like, 60 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: start talking about money again, guys, but let's let's mountain 61 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: bike me though, and more just kind of the practical 62 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:10,240 Speaker 1: nature of it, just the money the cost savings that 63 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: come with it, the just staying healthy, exercise, all of 64 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: those things. But I'm glad to hear though that your 65 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: son sounded like he this wasn't just you dropping a 66 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,360 Speaker 1: bunch of money on a bike that may or may 67 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: not have been on sale. I like that he he 68 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: showed up to the table as well, he had his 69 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: own money. I like that. Yeah. Absolutely. You know, he's 70 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: been talking about it for a while and he's eleven, 71 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: just turn eleven, and so he's at that age where 72 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 1: financial socialization really starts to kick in at a whole 73 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: another level. Um, he's got the math wherewithal to do 74 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 1: the addition and subtraction, and you know, different than his 75 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: younger brothers that are five and four and just aren't 76 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: there yet. Well before we we dive into the book, Uh, 77 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: we're having some of these bigger conversations about mental health 78 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: in our country these days. Just generally speaking, we're not 79 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: sweeping things under the rug as much as we used to. 80 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: And it seems like financial therapy, which is what you do, 81 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: it seems like that's because being more common as well. 82 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: Can you tell us about financial therapy and how it 83 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: has evolved over time? Yeah, um. So financial therapy has 84 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: probably been around in some shape or form for quite 85 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: a long time, but more formally, the Financial Therapy Association 86 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: started about twelve years ago, and it's really a group 87 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: of both mental health professionals and UH financial planners working 88 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 1: together and saying how do we do this better? And 89 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: so what we really look at is how do we 90 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: bring the counseling psychology processes into working with people's money. 91 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:31,679 Speaker 1: And so one of my favorite areas to talk about 92 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: is this area attachment styles, which we'll be talking a 93 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: little bit more about. So financial therapy is growing, the 94 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 1: recognition is growing, and it certainly has helped me out 95 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: a lot because the big thing is I was able 96 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: to anticipate my wife's reaction for the bicycle as well 97 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: as my son, but it was also having the skills 98 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 1: to work through that and manage that conversation that was 99 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: probably even more important. Gotcha. So we'd say that's the 100 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: main difference, because yeah, you you have that CFP certification, 101 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: but there there's a there's a different UM like tact. 102 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: There's a different approach that the CFP is going to 103 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: take when they're giving you advice. The person is going 104 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: to see a financial therapist, right, and like, can you 105 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, what is the difference in 106 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:16,720 Speaker 1: as like an individual as you go to pick one 107 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: of these people to go see and talk to and 108 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: spend time with, what's kind of the different route they're 109 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: going to take as they're helping you. Yeah, this is 110 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: a broad paint brush stroke, but the big differences. Cfps 111 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: are more often going to tell you what to do 112 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: and how to do it with your money. Right, So 113 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: if you need an investment strategy of the retirement plan 114 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: or how does this impact my taxes, you're gonna they're 115 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: going to collect the data and then they're gonna say, okay, 116 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: here's your best options. A financial therapist is more going 117 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: to look at your thoughts, your feelings, your behaviors, relationship 118 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 1: dynamics that are often preventing you from even being able 119 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: to talk with a financial planner about your investments, taxes, insurance, 120 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 1: estate planning. So we're really looking at any old kind 121 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 1: of emotional pain, thought, problematic thoughts around money that may 122 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: be stopping you from moving to that next step. So 123 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,679 Speaker 1: you're taking another layer deeper. It's not just the nuts 124 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: and bolts on the surface, but yeah, kind of more 125 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: than why some of those deeper issues in your book 126 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: you also so you talk about the four attachment styles. 127 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,799 Speaker 1: They're kind of the core message of your of your book. 128 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: Can you give us an overview of those different attachment styles? Yeah, absolutely, So. 129 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 1: Attachment styles are secure, anxious, avoidant, and disorganized. And these 130 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: attachment styles are broad categories of the way that people 131 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: will experience bonding in their intimate relationships. And the bonding 132 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: starts obviously in our childhood, and the research would say 133 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: in some ways even while you're in your mother's womb. 134 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: But this is a well researched area of psychology over 135 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 1: the last seven decades, and what they've identified are these 136 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: four broad patterns. And the secarily attached individual generally feels 137 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: positive about themselves and positive about other people. They generally 138 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: are trusting in relationships and can work through both good 139 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: times and challenging times with another person. A person with 140 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: an anxious attachment style is more often going to have 141 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: a negative view of themselves and a more positive view 142 00:07:11,640 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: of others. They're often wanting to bond, trying very hard 143 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: to bond with with their intimate partner, but never really 144 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: sure that it's working quite so well, or that they've 145 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: met their partner's approval. On the other side of the 146 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: attachment continuum are the avoidant attachment patterns, and those are 147 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: the people that really like to do relationships on their 148 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: own right. They're gonna keep people a little bit more 149 00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: at arm's length distance, especially when it comes to emotionally 150 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: sensitive topics. More often than not, they have a more 151 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: positive view of themselves and a more negative view of others. 152 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: It's they're a little more dismissing. Basically, they've learned through 153 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: their caregiving experiences. I can't trust other people to meet 154 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: my own needs, so I have to become self reliant 155 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: and then disorganized. Is some combination of the anxious and 156 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: avoidant patterns. And the big thing that I like to 157 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: remind people is each of these styles or patterns was 158 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: very adaptive for your particular caregiving environment. It's not a oh, 159 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,239 Speaker 1: I should feel bad because I have an anxious attachment 160 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: style or an avoidant attachment style. It's like, you know, 161 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: you didn't pick your attachment style. That was a product 162 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 1: of the way that you were raised. As a a 163 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 1: maturing adult, you may need to do some healing work 164 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: around your attachment patterns so that you can move more 165 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: towards that secure attachment, because that's where the research really 166 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: helps us see that those are the people that have 167 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: the higher relationship satisfaction, more effective communication skills, those are 168 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: the things that we need in order to be successful financially. Yeah. Well, 169 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: you you actually wrote in the book you said that 170 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: discovering your attachment style has and I quote completely changed 171 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: the way I think about personal finance. And I found 172 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: that to be fascinating that, like, as you kind of 173 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: dug in and did some of that deeper work, that 174 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: it changed to what you thought about money and how 175 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: you handle it. So can you can you explain how 176 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,199 Speaker 1: that discovery made such a dramatic shift in in your 177 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: life and in how, yeah, how you handle money? Yeah? Absolutely, So, 178 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: you know, I think it has given me a more 179 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,560 Speaker 1: formal lens for understanding both myself and my wife and 180 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: where she's coming from and where I'm coming from and 181 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: why I'm going to relate the way that I'm going 182 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: to relate. So, if we go back to my son's 183 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: bicycle purchase from yesterday, even right, a little bit of 184 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: that was anxious attachment also showing up. I knew that 185 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: I probably should have just given my wife a call 186 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: and the heads up and said, hey, um, this is 187 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: where we're at, this is where we're thinking through. That 188 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: would have been a little more collaborative, right, but I 189 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 1: was a little anxious about how she would respond, and 190 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: so I was like, I'm just gonna push this on aside. 191 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: Plus he's using his own money, so not that big 192 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: of a deal, right, But that didn't feel great for 193 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 1: her when we came home, and so that that was 194 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: a relational missattiptment and I set myself up in that one. 195 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 1: The other side of that, though, is as I've been 196 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 1: growing and as my wife is growing, the conversation actually further. 197 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: She was telling me about some of the things that 198 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: are happening in her practice. She's a dentist. There's an 199 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 1: income dip in January. We're not really sure what happened, 200 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: but you know it. It had her anxious about the finances, 201 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: and we're able to sit down and talk and just 202 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: instead of me becoming overly concerned about what do I 203 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: need to do to take care of her and make 204 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: sure everything's gonna be all right and that somehow she's 205 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: not upset at me, I just listened and helped her 206 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: think through what does this mean, and then got to 207 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: more of the practical side of what do we do 208 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: from here. It's almost as if, yeah, understanding the other 209 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,599 Speaker 1: person and making sure that they feel understood it is 210 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: almost more important than actually solving the problem. Yeah. I know, 211 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 1: oftentimes in these conversations with my wife, I immediately jumped 212 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: to the nuts and bolts, you know, solving the problem, 213 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: when maybe that's not necessarily what's needed in the moments. 214 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: I think often reaction sometimes though for us, Oh my gosh. 215 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: And I don't want to generalize all men, but I 216 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: don't know, at least at least for me, default for sure, 217 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: like let me fix this for you, And she's like, 218 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: that's that's not what I'm after here. Yeah. Yeah, And 219 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: she even told me, she's just like, I just want 220 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: you to say I'm sorry that sucks. And I've I've 221 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: taken that to heart and I say that often now. 222 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: It's a part of my my tool kit. But but 223 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 1: as something else that stuck out to me is when 224 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:17,479 Speaker 1: you wrote your relationship with money is governed less by 225 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: what you know about money and how it is that 226 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: you experience yourself and others. You know, this is kind 227 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:23,680 Speaker 1: of going back to what we just talked about, you know, 228 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: the difference between financial therapist and a CFP. But the 229 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: thing is like, if that's the case, then is the 230 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: solution to our money problems? Is it less about learning 231 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: to budget or you know, opening a roth ira, and 232 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: is it more about doing some of this internal work ourselves. Yeah, 233 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: I think that's the position that I've landed in, and 234 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: it's been a long journey to get to this point. 235 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: But there's certainly a place for increasing your financial literacy 236 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: and knowledge of how money works so that you can 237 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: do it well or appropriately. But the challenges that financial 238 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: planning often ends up looking a lot like dieting, right, 239 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: It's like people know what to do, but they don't 240 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: do it, or they do it for a little bit 241 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: and then they change paths. And so that starts to 242 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,719 Speaker 1: by the deeper question of what's going on inside of me? 243 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: How am I responding or reacting to money? How is 244 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: my sense of self impacting the way that I show 245 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: up around money? So do I have a positive view 246 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: of myself which says I can be resilient through financial 247 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: struggles and be comfortable with the fact of increasing success 248 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: and change, or do those things throw me off kilter. Well, 249 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: and I certainly I'm not. I don't want to discount 250 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: the value that a financial therapist can bring or the 251 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,280 Speaker 1: therapist in general can bring. My My wife is actually 252 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: in school getting her master's degree right now to become 253 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: a marriage and family therapist. And I think there's like 254 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: so much I know, right, I'm kind of like the 255 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: she's running all our papers about my idiosyncrasies, which she's great. Great, 256 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: because you're gonna say a different word there. Yeah, I've 257 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 1: got a lot of issues that she can diagnose. Um. 258 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,000 Speaker 1: But but is there any way And I am curious, Um, 259 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,719 Speaker 1: how would you suggest people start to kind of d 260 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: I y and start to think through do some of 261 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: this internal work UM on their own? Like is yeah, 262 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: obviously it's great to go see UM an expert in 263 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: the field, But is there a way that people can 264 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: kind of begin and start to do some of this 265 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: dredging up some of this internal work before they even 266 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: go visit a professional. Yeah? Absolutely, well, And I see 267 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, Joel, you did your money origin story. It 268 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: looks like not too long ago. So reflection in psychology 269 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: and especially in counseling is a huge part of our growth, right, 270 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: So becoming a more reflective person is the process of 271 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: integrating and making sense out of, and sometimes recovering from 272 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: those painful experiences in the past. But what you want 273 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: to do is you can start taking a money history, 274 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: your own money history, so you can look back and 275 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: try to remember back to your earliest points and in 276 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: time and see what are those financial events that happened, 277 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: and just start laying out kind of a timeline. So 278 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: you can even get a piece of paper out and 279 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: write a nice little timeline and put age zero and 280 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: to age wherever you are now, and just start doing 281 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: hash marks, and you can just make little notes. And 282 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: what we're looking for an activity like this is did 283 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: you have mostly positive associations and memories of around money, 284 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: mostly negative, some combination the two, And that very first 285 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: glance through it, what we wanna make sure is can 286 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: I see both the good and bad? Right? That's part 287 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: of secure functioning from an attachment perspective is we're not 288 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: overly focused on the good, but we're not also overly 289 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 1: focused on on the bad. So if you have a 290 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: money timeline that starts showing all kinds of painful experiences 291 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: around money, and that's all that's coming up for you, 292 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: that's a good sign that you probably do need to 293 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: go work with a financial therapist. But if you have, 294 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: you know, a mix of different experiences around money, and 295 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 1: when you look back on those more challenging or painful 296 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 1: money experiences, if you can be remain reflective and draw 297 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: out the lessons learned, then it's probably not what I 298 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: would call money trauma. But what happens is oftentimes we 299 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: have money trauma where it's like I don't even want 300 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: to remember those bad things that happen financially because if 301 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: I do, all become overwhelmed with the emotions and the 302 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: associations associated with it, And that's that's where if someone's 303 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 1: feeling those feelings, that's where it's it's probably most helpful. 304 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: Like if you do find you have the good and 305 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 1: the bad, and you have that more secure attachment, you 306 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: you can probably do some of this work on your own. 307 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: But if you feel like you're shoving things down underneath 308 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: the surface and you're like unwilling to deal with them, 309 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: or if everything is coming up negative, that's when you 310 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 1: probably would be Yeah, an expert would be helpful. An 311 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: expert would be really helpful, right because a lot of 312 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: what we talk about is it's not always even about 313 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: remembering all the bad things that happen, but it's about 314 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: helping you your mind psychologically recognized that that experience is 315 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: over and it's in the past, and it's not about 316 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: forgetting it. It's about being able to make meaning and 317 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: help really at the physiological level, which is the core 318 00:15:54,480 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: of us, recognize it's safe now that threat has passed. Yes, 319 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: it's not something that's currently hanging over your head where 320 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: you feel like you have to be on high alert. 321 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: Like maybe, yeah, there was a period, say right out 322 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: of college where you were incredibly low on funds and 323 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: you were kind of living paycheck to paycheck. That threat 324 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 1: of feeling like you're about to get evicted. Uh, you're 325 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: saying essentially that is something we can carry into our future. 326 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 1: That's affecting us now absolutely, Okay, Yeah, I gotta say 327 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: to you're right, like and and going back to you 328 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: mentioned my money origin story. That's one of those things 329 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: where there were there was there was certainly a combo 330 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: of good and bad things when it came to money 331 00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: and how I viewed money and even those negative things. 332 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: I feel like for a while, especially in my early 333 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: mid twenties, like they kind of influenced how I did 334 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: everything when it came to how I handled money. And 335 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: now I've done some work and I've grown and I 336 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: feel like those things are memories and they're still impactful, 337 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: but they don't hold the same weight or sway over 338 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: me that they did like ten years ago. Yeah, that's 339 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: exactly right, And Jel, I think you're on on the 340 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: point there is what that work looks like can be 341 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: varied for a lot of different people, but it is 342 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: you became curious at some level about how is my 343 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 1: past shaping my present? What do I need to learn 344 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: or grow into something different now? And that can help 345 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: bring resolution to those painful things that happened in the past. 346 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: And you know the gift of talking with many many 347 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: money experts in a wide variety of fields, most of 348 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,800 Speaker 1: them have had some pretty defining, painful experiences around money 349 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,719 Speaker 1: that sent them on the transformational journey. Or if your 350 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: listeners are familiar with a hero's journey, Um, that's another 351 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: lens that I like to use in my my work 352 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: with clients, is that doing your money work is very 353 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: much a hero's journey. Absolutely, Yeah, And so doing that 354 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: work yourself. That can be one way you arrived to 355 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: that point, but I think a partner, somebody, a significant 356 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: other can also be the refiner's fire, as you wrote, 357 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: and seek to you know, evolving your relationships. So we're 358 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 1: actually going to talk more about that. We're gonna talk 359 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: about couples, uh, and finance. We're gonna get to all 360 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: of that right after this break. We're back from break. 361 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: We're still talking with financial therapist Ed Combs. And sometimes 362 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 1: it's helpful to know that the struggles you're facing aren't unique. 363 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we're like, nobody knows what I've 364 00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 1: gone through, nobody else can identify, and you feel you 365 00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: feel alone in what you've gone through, and that makes 366 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: it even more difficult. Um, and that maybe even makes 367 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: the negative things you've experienced feel bigger than they actually were. 368 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: So yeah, well, what are maybe some of the most 369 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: common issues that you find yourself helping folks with at 370 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: your practice, So that maybe, um, how money listeners can realize, 371 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 1: Oh wait, that's not completely abnormal. Yeah, absolutely, So one 372 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: of the biggest dynamics is around spending and saving. And 373 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, on the surface, it looks like we're having 374 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,080 Speaker 1: a fight about spending and saving, but often times where 375 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: it's a fight over power and control and influence and 376 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 1: mutual respect and so um. When I meet with the 377 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: my couples around these issues, certainly I'm trying to understand 378 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: their attachment styles because that's their relationship blueprint about how 379 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: they're going to experience relationships. I want to know about 380 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 1: their money history, and I want to know what they've 381 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: done in the past to try to resolve this right 382 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: because I want them to get more and more creative 383 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: about being responsible for solving the problems. In the long run, 384 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: they're going to live with each other and not be 385 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: seeing me, and so I want them to be empowered 386 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: around being able to find their own resolutions. My job 387 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: is to help facilitate them in that direction. So common 388 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: things are are certainly some degree of poverty or financial scarcity, 389 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: and childhood is often a backdrop to the present day problems. 390 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,959 Speaker 1: I've had quite a handful of clients that grew up 391 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: with affluent or wealthy parents that really mismanaged the finances, 392 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: and so while there was this income and wealth, there's 393 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: also high degrees of financial stress and anxiety, and so 394 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: that mismatched often continues forward for a lot of clients 395 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: problems around financial transparency and being honest about how much 396 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: money has been spent. There's another big issue that comes up. 397 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: And I think all those issues probably sound familiar to 398 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: a lot of folks in one way or another. These 399 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: just different dynamics that we are faced with. And so 400 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: let's let's kind of dive into two dating before there's marriage. 401 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: We've got dating. Uh, and then you know, first of all, 402 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: how important is it to discuss finances with someone who 403 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: you are building a relationship with? And uh and specifically, 404 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: you know, I want to know how how soon should 405 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: a couple actually have this conversation? As soon as you 406 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: have your first kiss, it's time to have the first 407 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: money conversation. Okay, Right, so right after that hot and heavy, 408 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:49,719 Speaker 1: sweet makeout session, you dive into your financial stuff. So 409 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 1: tell me about your you know, your balance sheet, right 410 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: out and heavy makeout session. There you go. You can 411 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: leave that for the second date. No, But what I 412 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 1: would would encourage people listening to think about is in 413 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 1: that dating sequence, right, you're over time getting to know 414 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: whether you like being in their company in general, whether 415 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: there's a sense of emotional compatibility, whether there's a sense 416 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: of sexual intimacy and compatibility and whatever that pacing or 417 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: framework is for you. And so in the same sense, 418 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: money becomes another natural point in that dating sequence where 419 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: you want to start to get to know this person financially, 420 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: and it's about what are their preferences, what are the 421 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: things that they don't like? Can they be reflective on uh, 422 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: lessons learned on money? Are they able to talk about 423 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: goals and ambitions? What's their family history around money? Like 424 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: those are all really important starter points to engauging the 425 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: other person's readiness to engage in a healthy and productive 426 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: financial relationship with you, Because if your relationship is going 427 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: to progress forward, your life will be intertwined financially. There's 428 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: just not a way around it. How do you create 429 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: that open place, because yeah, you don't want to just 430 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: be like, all right, it's it now, let me see 431 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: your credit score. You know you probably do want to 432 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 1: cover stuff like that, But how do you do it 433 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 1: in a way that's gonna like foster healthy communication and 434 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: where it feels like a safe place where you can 435 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: kind of talk about those things as opposed to feeling 436 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: like you're just pestering someone to get their financial details 437 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: out In the open. Yeah, and so I think you 438 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: really the word safe place right. So, if you're in 439 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: that newly dating or early stages relationship, it may feel 440 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: a little awkward to tentative to lead into the conversation. 441 00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: And I think the other big framing is it's not 442 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: a one time conversation. This is an ongoing conversation where 443 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: we're gonna open up these questions and sometimes it will 444 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: be casual, maybe it's over a beer or a glass 445 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: of wine. If you're moving further into that relationship, maybe 446 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 1: it becomes more structured what we do sit down and 447 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: look at each other's patterns of spending. What does that 448 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 1: feel like to become more financially transparent with this other person? 449 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: So it's you know, at some point you want to 450 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 1: get financially naked with the person. Know it's not on 451 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: the first day, probably not in the first month, but 452 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: over time, if the relationship is maturing and headed in 453 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: that direction where you see a longer term together, you 454 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: really do want to work on that. And this is 455 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: assuming you're in the position of being proactive. There might 456 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: be some people listening thinking, holy crap, what is this 457 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: guy talking about. I don't want to do that. That 458 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: sounds terrifying to me. And if that's where you're at, 459 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: completely understandable, no problem. But as we're talking about earlier, 460 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: that maybe is a signal that it is time for 461 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: you to start doing some of your own money work. 462 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: And there's plenty of great books. You guys mentioned my book. 463 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,720 Speaker 1: I really appreciate that there's plenty of other great money 464 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: books out there that look more at your personal relationship 465 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: with money than at the numbers and spreadsheets and strategy side, 466 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: as important as that is. Yeah, well, so specifically, I 467 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: mean you said get getting financially naked, Like what exactly 468 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: does that look like? Like, let's let's get specific with details, 469 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: like what kind of information should should we be sharing? 470 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 1: Because we you know, we joke about sharing a credit score, 471 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: or you know, we might joke about student lows or 472 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: something like that. But but like, I guess what what 473 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: what is some practical advice for folks as to you know, 474 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: what they should consider sharing with their partner? Right, So, 475 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: on the objective side, it's your budget or spending patterns, 476 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: a net worth statement, and credit score. And this is 477 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,880 Speaker 1: not to judge them, but to just have a sense 478 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: of starting mutuality because you're not going to bring the 479 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 1: same thing to the table financially. But this is part 480 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: of this bigger picture that I'm I'm really encouraging more 481 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 1: and more couples towards, which is financial intimacy, right. And 482 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,159 Speaker 1: when you have financial intimacy in the relationship, nothing is 483 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: off limits and you can talk about anything safely, openly, 484 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: candidly with each other. So this is where that attachment 485 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: framework really helps people understand. If you're struggling to think 486 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 1: about doing this, we may need to look at your 487 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,719 Speaker 1: attachment history and your patterns of really and ship bonding 488 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: and safety and security and transparency. So do do you 489 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: think maybe that's part of it then too, So we're 490 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: telling you said you mentioned the credit score, sharing, spending patterns. 491 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: Those are some of those objective things that we do 492 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: need to share with the person that we're growing closer to. 493 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,080 Speaker 1: Do you think there's an important thing that we're like 494 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 1: to those two people should also work towards knowing each 495 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: other's attachment style so they can understand each other in 496 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,159 Speaker 1: a deeper way. And is they're like, is there a 497 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:29,679 Speaker 1: way that they can they can do that kind of 498 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: find that that that out about themselves and so that 499 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: they can then maybe have more of a common language 500 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: to be able to in an understanding of kind of 501 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: where where they're you know, significant others coming from. Yeah. Absolutely, 502 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: So I have an attachment style quiz on my website, Healthy, 503 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,639 Speaker 1: Love and Money dot com. You can also google attachment 504 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 1: style quizzes. There's several different resources out plenty of resources 505 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,880 Speaker 1: out there to start to become familiar with it. And 506 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: you're right, attachment styles can become a language or relationship 507 00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: framework for you to understand both who am I now 508 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,399 Speaker 1: and where do I want to go in the future. 509 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 1: And that's been one of the most rewarding things um 510 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: as I talked to people that are taking the attachment stock, 511 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: was is like, oh, oh, I can see how I 512 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: used to be and now after some time in therapy, 513 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: I can see that I'm more much more secure. Right, 514 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 1: So it gives a framework for relational growth as well, 515 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: and as you dive deeper into understanding your attachment styles, 516 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 1: it just creates more and more clarity about why am 517 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: I the way I am, Where are my triggers or 518 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: sore spots around relationship connection? And then what do I 519 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: need to do to start getting some healing and relief? 520 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: Around that, and it often then the other partner can 521 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 1: also recognize, Oh, this isn't just about me not being 522 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: responsive to them or the way that I'm responsive. It's 523 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: about their attachment history and the unmet emotional and relational 524 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: needs that they had. As you are explaining this, and 525 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: I mean, I realized, I've had a lot of conversations 526 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: with my wife about money, and I don't know if 527 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 1: maybe it's just because we have similar attachment styles, we've 528 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: been able to work forward, and I guess neither of 529 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: us have really been all that frustrated with how the 530 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: other handles money, and so I guess in that way 531 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: we've got lucky. But because of that, this isn't something 532 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: we've ever addressed head on, you know, we haven't gotten down, 533 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: uh and really picked apart some of these attachment styles 534 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,719 Speaker 1: and what that means to us. Makes me wonder if 535 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: there's a fifth attachment style of nerdy, because that's Matt's 536 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: attachment for money. That is that one? Did I just 537 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: come up with a new one? Is this ground members? 538 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, Yeah, Excel is that one? Just? But 539 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,959 Speaker 1: so attachments is really about your interpersonal bonding, right, like 540 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: how you experienced interpersonal relationships, and then the way you 541 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:46,360 Speaker 1: approach money can be different than your attachment style psychologically speaking. 542 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: But if you're anxious, then you're more likely to feel 543 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: rejected or uncertain in the relationship about how to navigate 544 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: these difficult money conversations with your partner, whereas if you're 545 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: more on that avoiding continuous like I'm not going to 546 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: include you in what's going on here financially, like I 547 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: can't really trust you to understand me, so why would 548 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: I let you in? Yeah? Well, and Ed, you know, 549 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: when we were talking about some of the specifics to share, 550 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: you share that there are some different objective you know, 551 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: pieces of data that we need to share, like your 552 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: credit score, things like that. Are there is there a 553 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: set of subjective details or I guess goals that we 554 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: need to talk about with our partners. Yeah, that's where 555 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: we started getting into. Um, both the positive side of 556 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: things and the challenging or dash negative side of things 557 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: is like your fears, your anxieties, maybe even places of 558 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: shame around money, like maybe I know what I should 559 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: be doing with money, but I'm not doing it, or 560 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: you know, I spend money in this way or that 561 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: way that I feel embarrassed about maybe I feel controlled 562 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: by my parents and the way that they manage the 563 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: money between me and them. Maybe I've felt financially responsible 564 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: for other family members that I feel resentful for. So 565 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: those are the challenging inside of money dynamics and relationships. 566 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: But then it's also about sharing your hopes, your dreams, 567 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,719 Speaker 1: your aspirations, and surprisingly a lot of people really struggle 568 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: in this area to actually adequately articulate hopes, dreams, um values. 569 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: And so that's an area to dig into as a 570 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: couple and to start exploring and cultivating and um you know, 571 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: for some in a very simple way, I'm a big 572 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,680 Speaker 1: dreamer and my wife is much more practical, And so 573 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: that's a dynamic that gets challenging. Is it's no problem 574 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: for me, like, oh, I'm dreaming about a lake house 575 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: and a boat and I wanted a vacation, and and 576 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: her head's like just registering dollar signals for all of 577 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,040 Speaker 1: this instead of just tracking with me and be like, wow, 578 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Tell me more about why that's important 579 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: to you, right, Because there is meaning for me around 580 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: those and and this is that other side of mutuality 581 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: is being able to draw my wife into that place 582 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: of hopes, dreams, and aspiration ends, but also in staying 583 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 1: balanced with the practical and holding both ends of those 584 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: things together. So that's those are much more of the 585 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 1: subjective elements of managing money life together. Yeah, good stuff. 586 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: All right, We've got some more questions to get to 587 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: about how couples can handle money well together and including 588 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about how to handle conflicts, because that's 589 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: kind of inevitable when you're in love with someone else 590 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: and you've got to talk about money. So we'll get 591 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: to some questions on that right after this break. Alright, 592 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: we're back from the break and we are speaking with 593 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: a financial therapist, Ed Combs. Uh, Ed, how do you 594 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: help couples who are on completely different pages when it 595 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 1: comes to how it is that they handle money if 596 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,360 Speaker 1: they're just not in and yang? Seriously, I mean, in 597 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: some ways I feel like it can be helpful because 598 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: it can help couples to balance out, but oftentimes I 599 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: think it can keep you from being able to, you know, 600 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: progress forward at all. How would you help out in 601 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: that situation? Yeah, so absolutely true. Those are big dynamics 602 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: to draw out. When I talk with couples, I normalize 603 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: the reality that you're going to be similar and different 604 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: around money, and it's more often where we're different around 605 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: money that the conflict starts to show up. But this 606 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: is where I like to take them a step deeper 607 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,960 Speaker 1: before we try to get together on the topic. We've 608 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: been talking throughout this show about money histories, and a 609 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: lot of times couples know bits and pieces of each 610 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: other's money history, but they don't really they haven't really 611 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: ever heard it in kind of a full story format, 612 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,960 Speaker 1: and maybe you you haven't. They haven't done it for themselves, right, 613 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: So if you're fighting about these differences, the big starting 614 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: point is getting curious about where do these differences come from? 615 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: Where my history and life did this outlook on money 616 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 1: come from? What does that mean or represent to me? 617 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: I am I doing it that way? And then why 618 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: for the same for the other person, Because the reality 619 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,880 Speaker 1: is there are like there are reasons and motivations for 620 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: why we were doing what we're doing with money. They 621 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: may not always be immediately conscious or aware, but if 622 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 1: we go back into our money history and can start 623 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 1: to dig into what different emotional emotions got attached with 624 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: different money experiences, we can usually start to fare it 625 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: out So as a more practical example, UM, I had 626 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: a couple where the wife was would do a lot 627 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: more of the shopping. She would get secretive about it, 628 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: and the husband would be kind of controlling of her 629 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 1: about about her spending. And so they came to me 630 00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 1: to get help around this because she would promise I'm 631 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: gonna I'm not gonna spend any more, and then six 632 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: months to a year later she would be back to 633 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: the shopping and spending. And so that was a really 634 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: frustrating cycle for for the couple. And you know, I 635 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 1: think some people would hear this and be, oh, well, 636 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 1: there's abuse in the relationship. Well, no, it wasn't really 637 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: about abuse. It was about their own painful past experiences 638 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: around money and in very short form, trying to protect 639 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: their confidentiality. Uh. She had lost her mother in childhood 640 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: and one of those ways that her family kind of 641 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: if you will, took care of her as she aged 642 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: is they would take her shopping to make her feel better. Right, 643 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: And so as she was now an adult married woman, 644 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,959 Speaker 1: anytime that she started to feel stressed, her brain associated 645 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,240 Speaker 1: stress not feeling good, go shopping. Well. This was in 646 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: perfect contrast to her husband, who had grown up in 647 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: an environment where he was very sensitive to his mother 648 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: and the financial challenges that they were experiencing. And when 649 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: he would go, he would call going shopping, and his 650 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: older brothers would not think twice about getting a bunch 651 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: of clothes at the department store. Meanwhile, he's watching his 652 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: mom's face kind of like drop and sorrow and overwhelmed, 653 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: and he would restrict what he would buy to try 654 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: to lessen the blow to mom. So it's where you're 655 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 1: doing that deeper work. It helps you realize, oh wait, 656 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: this person, the love of my life, is not doing 657 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: this to sabotage me or to ruin our financial goals 658 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: or plans. It comes from this deeper place and you 659 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: can like sympathize and empathize more with with your sement 660 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: bic another. Then right, that's exactly right, And that's the 661 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: exact goal of that type of exercise. Is for most couples, 662 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:26,279 Speaker 1: that's where they land in that type of exercise. If 663 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 1: they're not able to step into that empathy and sympathy 664 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: for each other's past stories, that just means that there's 665 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: often even more emotional pain and hurt um for them 666 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: that they need to be able to work through before 667 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: they can really see each other's U side of the 668 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: story and how that's shape them. Yeah. Yeah, there were 669 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 1: some recent stats that came out about financial infidelity and 670 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 1: that if I think credit cards dot Com did a 671 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: survey and it certainly seems like it's on the rise 672 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: where couples are hiding spending from one another, or they 673 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 1: have maybe a credit card that they haven't that they 674 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: haven't revealed to their partner. Um. And and and you actually 675 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: you actually detail in the book about UM some financial 676 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: infidelity that happened inside of your marriage, and it's a 677 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: very personal story. UM. But since you shared in your book, 678 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: would you mind sharing it with us here? Yeah? Absolutely So. 679 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: Financial infidelity is a breach in relational trust, both implicit 680 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: and explicit expectations around money. Right. And so for me, 681 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: my wife had launched her dental practice. This has been 682 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: a much part of larger part of our ongoing marital dynamic. 683 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: And part of why I got here is out of 684 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:34,960 Speaker 1: values of why I was. I have no problem with 685 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: women making more money than men, but at a lived experience, 686 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: it's played on some of my own insecurities. And so 687 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: after my I went back to school to become a therapist, 688 00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 1: you know, wasn't uh I left the working world, wasn't 689 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:50,919 Speaker 1: making money. It had been a stay at home dad, 690 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,800 Speaker 1: and was trying to get back into getting my counseling 691 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: practice up and going. And by this time I thought, 692 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 1: you know, oh, I'll figure it out. I help my 693 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,759 Speaker 1: wife grow her dental practice. And how hard it can 694 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: it be to grow counseling practice. And let me just say, 695 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: it was nothing like growing a gental practice. Harder, much harder, 696 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: because you know, we would go to parties and people 697 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: would find out my wife as a dentist and they 698 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,800 Speaker 1: would say, oh, can I have your card? And I 699 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: would say I'm a therapist, and they would kind of 700 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: walk away from me, like everybody knows that, hey, guys, 701 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: they need a cleaning. But most people like think that 702 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: they're pretty good internally, you know, like they think that 703 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 1: even though that's probably not necessarily true. Well, and in therapist, 704 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: we don't work with people that we know like that, 705 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 1: we don't have we don't we have regular engagement with. 706 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,919 Speaker 1: So that was so there was so those dynamics. There 707 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: was so many different layers to this this cake, so 708 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,640 Speaker 1: to speak. But from a financial infidelity standpoint is I, 709 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,160 Speaker 1: you know, had made my projections about how quickly a 710 00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: practice would get going, use some money, credit card money 711 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 1: to get things going, and got stuck in this rationalization like, well, 712 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: she makes money of money. If this doesn't work out, 713 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,480 Speaker 1: she'll be able to cut it. And so I just 714 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,360 Speaker 1: didn't tell her about how bad things were getting. And 715 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:06,399 Speaker 1: I've had some other mental health things that we're really 716 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,799 Speaker 1: starting to spiral out of control, for me falling into 717 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: a pretty significant, major depression. And so it's this complex 718 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: constellation of experiences that led me to not be transparent 719 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: with my wife about where we're at financially. Eventually it 720 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 1: did break through, and we had to work through that 721 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: and make meaning makes sense out of how do we 722 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: get here. Fortunately, we had had quite a number of 723 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,000 Speaker 1: years of financial transparency and trust prior to that, and 724 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 1: so she could see kind of contextually how I got there. 725 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,320 Speaker 1: It didn't mean that it didn't doesn't sting or didn't 726 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: sting at that time, And you know, we worked very 727 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: hard now to maintain financial transparency. And this is a 728 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: really challenging place for a lot of couples where one 729 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: or both people are in business because income variability is 730 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: part of the journey, and so you're trying to make 731 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: projections and some level of commitment to this is what 732 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: I can bring into the family. But then reality hits 733 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,240 Speaker 1: and it's not always pretty. What if someone is actually 734 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 1: in an unhealthy or even an abusive relationship? You know, 735 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: like money can oftentimes I think it can be used 736 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: as a tool. It can maybe even be used as 737 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: a weapon. Uh, And so what are maybe some signs 738 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 1: that this is going on in a relationship? And then 739 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,759 Speaker 1: what should someone do about it if they realize that 740 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: they are in an abusive or toxic relationship? Yeah, so 741 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: straightaway get to a couple of therapists as fast as 742 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: you can, even if you have that sense or your 743 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: question in it. I mean, do your Google research if 744 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: you need to, but it's better just go ahead and 745 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: get into a couple of therapists, because it's like it's 746 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: better to have the chest pain and go to the 747 00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,879 Speaker 1: doctor and have the doctors say, oh, this is uh 748 00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,800 Speaker 1: something you know, mild, not not a big deal, or no, 749 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: you're about to have a heart attack. Right, you want 750 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,480 Speaker 1: to get in front of professional eyes that work with 751 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,799 Speaker 1: abusive relationships regularly so that they can help you differentiate 752 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: because it's very hard people when they're in the abusive 753 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: relationship to come to terms and work through that. And 754 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:08,120 Speaker 1: so my encouragement even if you think that you're in 755 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: an abusive relationship, just go ahead and get into a 756 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,400 Speaker 1: couple's therapy or go find find a therapist and start 757 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,680 Speaker 1: asking your questions and sharing your story. You're so miird 758 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: in it that you're not gonna be able to see 759 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,879 Speaker 1: it clearly. Yeah. Well yeah, And if someone has been 760 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 1: listening and and they're like, yeah, okay, it sounds like 761 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: I need to see a financial therapist or yeah, where 762 00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,399 Speaker 1: should they go? Is there is there a resource where 763 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 1: you tell people to turn to find someone close to 764 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: them that can help them out in this area. Yeah. Absolutely. 765 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: So if you're thinking my issue is more kind of 766 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 1: around how I interact with money, the Financial Therapy Association 767 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: is a wonderful starting place. They have a find a 768 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: therapist tool there, So that's for the financial therapy side 769 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:52,800 Speaker 1: of things, and then for a couples therapists. Psychology Today 770 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: has a great therapist directory in listening there and you 771 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: can search by all kinds of different criteria for therapist 772 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,400 Speaker 1: in your local area. Uh. And and I wanted to 773 00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,000 Speaker 1: say ed, like, I know some people might say that's 774 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 1: an odd choice of an episode to do on Valentine's Day, 775 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,840 Speaker 1: to to to talk of all these things, But I think, like, um, 776 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: I think sometimes maybe we misunderstand what love is in 777 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: our culture, and I think truly loving somebody else is, 778 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: and truly loving yourself is doing some of these this 779 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: hard work and growing together over time in ways that 780 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: aren't necessarily easy. And so well, Matt and I, we 781 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: really appreciate you coming on and talking about some of 782 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: the harder things that we have to deal with, particularly 783 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: like getting on the same page about money and and 784 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: doing some of that. Yeah, those deeper dives into kind 785 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,120 Speaker 1: of our money history. So um, yeah, thank you so 786 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. And where can our 787 00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: listeners find out more about you and what you're up to? Yeah? Absolutely, 788 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: Uh my website, Healthy Love and Money dot com is 789 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: probably the best place to get started from there. Um 790 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 1: have blogs, social media links, my book that you guys mentioned. 791 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,160 Speaker 1: I'm very excited about a new course that I'm watching, 792 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: The Couple's Guide to Financial Intimacy. It's if you're thinking 793 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,319 Speaker 1: you want to do the deep dive, Um, that's gonna 794 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: be a year long program that you can check out 795 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 1: and see if that's a good fit for you. That's awesome. 796 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 1: We'll make sure to link to all of that and 797 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,960 Speaker 1: uh and specifically to the links where folks can learn 798 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,560 Speaker 1: more about that course. Ed. Thank you for joining us 799 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: on the podcast today, Joelo Matt has been quite a 800 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 1: pleasure talking with you. Keep up the great work, and 801 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,839 Speaker 1: I look forward to being a guest in the future. Yeah, Joe, 802 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: hopefully we will be able to have ed back on 803 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: because these topics are so important for us to talk about, 804 00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: and I'm glad that we were able to dive into 805 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 1: them today. Uh. Specifically, what was your big takeaway from 806 00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,800 Speaker 1: this episode? All right, that's a good question in this conversation, Well, 807 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: I think the biggest, the biggest teguway I had was 808 00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 1: that one the common issues he mentioned are ones that 809 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,360 Speaker 1: plague all of us, even even people that are good 810 00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 1: with money still have money arguments or still have money disagreements. 811 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: And and I think what he pointed at was the 812 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 1: fact that there is almost always something deeper going on there, 813 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,320 Speaker 1: or maybe even always right where it is more about 814 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 1: like power or dynamics, or or you want respect from 815 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 1: your partner or um you know, there's a lack of 816 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: transparency going on and that you feel uncomfortable with. And 817 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: so I think, you know, when when you are having, 818 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: you know, money fights or disagreements, it's important to kind 819 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: of like go another level deeper in order to kind 820 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,239 Speaker 1: of assess, well, why is it that I'm reacting this 821 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,040 Speaker 1: way or why is it that I'm so upset right 822 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,719 Speaker 1: now because my partner spent money in that way, which 823 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,040 Speaker 1: I would never spend money in that way. And I 824 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: know that over the years, like I've had to come 825 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 1: to grips with some of those things in my own 826 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: life where it's like, oh, that's that's my insecurity coming out. 827 00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: That's not that's not Emily's fault, that's my fault. Um. 828 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:36,960 Speaker 1: And so yeah, digging that next layer deeper into what's 829 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,879 Speaker 1: happening beneath the surface is so crucial to actually being 830 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,880 Speaker 1: able to talk about money in a more productive way 831 00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,879 Speaker 1: with the person that you love, with your significant other. 832 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: That's so true. And you know, you kind of talked 833 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: about transparency and how there might need to be more 834 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: of that when it comes to some of the disagreements 835 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,480 Speaker 1: we have. I left how when he talked about what 836 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: he called financial infidelity on his part. It doesn't have 837 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,400 Speaker 1: to be this giant, massive thing. It can just literally 838 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 1: be a lack of transparency where you're not sharing information. 839 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: I think sometimes when you say financial infidelity, it sounds 840 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: like this massive, big, you know, breach of trust, when 841 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: in reality it can start, you know, and it is, 842 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,719 Speaker 1: but it likely started very innocently, you know, like at 843 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 1: a very small scale where maybe you weren't quite as 844 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,439 Speaker 1: transparent with your spending. Uh. And so that's a little 845 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: piggyback onto unto years. But my big takeaway I wanted 846 00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: to focus on how he talked about digging into your 847 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: own history with money, and he explained how simply what 848 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: you can do is just you know, draw a line, 849 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,960 Speaker 1: put some hash marks on there, and create a timeline. 850 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: And for a culture who probably doesn't reflect as much 851 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,759 Speaker 1: as we need to, that to me was just a 852 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 1: great tool, a great way to think back on your 853 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: history to see if you can isolate, see if you 854 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: can find and identify some of the different events that 855 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 1: occurred in your past that might be worth sharing with 856 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: your partner. Right as you start to build up that relationship, 857 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,480 Speaker 1: as you start having some more of these important conversations 858 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,359 Speaker 1: that you might be able to identify some of these 859 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:01,840 Speaker 1: things that you might want to share with them, and 860 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: that might allow them to get a feel for who 861 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: you are, why it is that you do spend the 862 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 1: way you do, or why it is that you don't 863 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: spend money at all, and and help you come to 864 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,640 Speaker 1: groups of that yourself you might call milestones or you know, 865 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 1: markers in your life that you've forgotten about. You're like, wow, 866 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,879 Speaker 1: that really had a pretty big impact. Yeah, it's about 867 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,480 Speaker 1: that self discovery, but then being able to then take 868 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: that hopefully whole self to a relationship. Because you know, 869 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: you combine two different people who have not you know, 870 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,040 Speaker 1: reflected and who haven't really dealt with their past, then 871 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: it's kind of a recipe for disaster. Right You take 872 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:36,879 Speaker 1: two broken people bring them together as opposed to two 873 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: folks who have an awareness of what they've been through 874 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,520 Speaker 1: and what they're looking to grow together. I think that's 875 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,279 Speaker 1: really important. Yeah, for sure, I like that. All right, Well, yeah, 876 00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 1: that was a fun conversation and hopefully more conversations like 877 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:48,920 Speaker 1: that in the future on how to mind and hopefully 878 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:50,600 Speaker 1: it was I mean, ultimately I like what you said 879 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: there at the end too. It seems like a kind 880 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:57,400 Speaker 1: of a weird topic day, Yeah, and ultimately it is. 881 00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,120 Speaker 1: But man, love it's hard work. It's not just like, Okay, 882 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: how can you afford to buy chocolate for your partner 883 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,759 Speaker 1: that's cheap? Like where we want to. I want to 884 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: get him the cheap chocolate that doesn't say I love you. 885 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 1: Get the good stuff from all the germ, the German chocolate, 886 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: like William Brown told us about. But we wanted to 887 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: take it a level deeper to really get at the 888 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 1: root of what makes relationships and love successful. And so 889 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,399 Speaker 1: that is why we wanted to have this conversation today, 890 00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: even though at times it kind of got a little 891 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,600 Speaker 1: more heavy, a little a little more serious. All right, Well, uh, 892 00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,880 Speaker 1: I agree, And for you and I, what makes our 893 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: relationship successful is drinking good beer together and talking about 894 00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: money and so on today's I said, while we talked 895 00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,560 Speaker 1: with Ed, we were drinking a grim Lilt grim as 896 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,880 Speaker 1: this brewery out of Brooklyn, New York. I believe they 897 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,240 Speaker 1: make some awesome beers and this is a golden sour 898 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,719 Speaker 1: aged noe barrels with tart cherries. Matt, what was your 899 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 1: what your thoughts on this beer? Dude? This is a 900 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,040 Speaker 1: fantastic beer when it comes to sours, fruited sours that 901 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 1: are barrel aged. This has everything that I'm looking for. 902 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,680 Speaker 1: It's got that tartness, it's got the acidity so it 903 00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: feels bright and crisp in your mouth. It's got the 904 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: right amount of fruit. But then it's got that funkiness, 905 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: some of those those woody knows, some of those at 906 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,759 Speaker 1: going on for sure. Oh, it is so good. It's 907 00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: got I mean, it checks all the boxes for what 908 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 1: I'm looking for in a sour. You know. One of 909 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:13,360 Speaker 1: the things we we talked about when we're talking about 910 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: barrel aged towers is how those barrels add a level 911 00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:19,879 Speaker 1: of complexity to the flavor compared to a kettle sour, 912 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,880 Speaker 1: which in my opinion oftentimes can taste a little not flat, 913 00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: but just kind of like one note. Uh. And I 914 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,520 Speaker 1: love that with a barrel aged tower, oftentimes you get 915 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 1: that true depth. Uh. And that's definitely what we've got 916 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,320 Speaker 1: going on here. But yeah, what what your thoughts? No, 917 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: I think you're right, Like you dig the cherries like 918 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: a single note versus a chord, right, and yeah, and 919 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:40,000 Speaker 1: so this this beer was like a beautifully played chord 920 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: um and yeah, I dug the cherries. I love cherries 921 00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: in a beer. But then also yeah, just that strong 922 00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,279 Speaker 1: oat presence combined with the like very tartness, a little 923 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: bit of funkiness and grim makes some really good beers. Sadly, 924 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:55,000 Speaker 1: we've never been to the brewery hopefully one of these days, 925 00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: but this beer makes me want to go even more 926 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 1: because it was delicious. What if we started taking like 927 00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:01,359 Speaker 1: brewery trips, Like we talked about going to visit certain 928 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:03,799 Speaker 1: breweries in certain cities, and some cities have a lot 929 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,279 Speaker 1: of good breweries. Uh, maybe that's something new that I 930 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,359 Speaker 1: can prioritize in the in the coming years of money 931 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,360 Speaker 1: road trip. Let's do it all right? Well, Happy Valentine's 932 00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 1: to Day to everyone out there. I hope. Um, yeah, 933 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:17,720 Speaker 1: you've got some motivation to attend to your relationship even 934 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: more in this coming year. After listening to this episode, 935 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,359 Speaker 1: we wish you the best of luck. And that's gonna 936 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,719 Speaker 1: do it for this episode, Matt. Until next time, Best 937 00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,439 Speaker 1: Friends Out, Best Friends Out.