WEBVTT - A Neuroscientist’s Curious Approach to Dying 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:15.396 Pushkin. 0:00:30.516 --> 0:00:36.556 I was really angry, I said, heart cancer. Nobody gets 0:00:36.636 --> 0:00:38.636 heart cancer, kidding? Is that even a thing? 0:00:39.836 --> 0:00:44.116 At just fifty nine years old, neuroscientist David Lindon received 0:00:44.156 --> 0:00:48.156 a startling diagnosis. He was told he only had six 0:00:48.196 --> 0:00:51.316 months to live, maybe a few more if he was lucky. 0:00:52.236 --> 0:00:55.276 But now it's been more than two years and David, 0:00:55.396 --> 0:00:58.796 thank goodness, is still here and in the face of 0:00:58.836 --> 0:01:02.636 his terminal diagnosis, he's still thinking like a scientist. 0:01:03.116 --> 0:01:09.596 Confronting my medical diagnosis with curiosity about the world and 0:01:09.716 --> 0:01:13.716 asking how can I interrogate my own mental processes and 0:01:13.836 --> 0:01:18.556 perhaps reveal something to myself about the mind or the brain? 0:01:19.636 --> 0:01:21.356 That's therapy. 0:01:24.796 --> 0:01:27.796 On today's episode, we hear how a student of the 0:01:27.876 --> 0:01:33.596 human mind is grappling with his own mortality. I'm Maya Shunker, 0:01:33.836 --> 0:01:36.236 and this is a slight change of plans, a show 0:01:36.276 --> 0:01:38.636 about who we are and who we become in the 0:01:38.636 --> 0:02:01.876 face of a big change. David Lindon is a professor 0:02:01.876 --> 0:02:05.756 of neuroscience in the School of Medicine at Johns Hopkins University. 0:02:06.396 --> 0:02:09.036 He's written five books in more than one hundred peerod 0:02:09.356 --> 0:02:12.996 papers on the science of memory, addiction, and brain injury. 0:02:13.916 --> 0:02:17.676 David has always been a deeply curious person. As a 0:02:17.756 --> 0:02:20.956 kid growing up in southern California, he was obsessed with 0:02:21.036 --> 0:02:24.796 watching Jacques Cousteau on TV. For a while, he thought 0:02:24.796 --> 0:02:28.396 he become a deep sea explorer or a marine biologist. 0:02:29.236 --> 0:02:32.756 But then one day he had this life changing conversation 0:02:32.916 --> 0:02:33.556 with his father. 0:02:34.516 --> 0:02:39.996 My father was a psychoanalyst, meeting an old fashioned lawe 0:02:39.996 --> 0:02:42.436 on the couch, tell me about your dreams four days 0:02:42.436 --> 0:02:48.356 a week, talking cure psychotherapist. And my father and I, 0:02:48.876 --> 0:02:51.476 from as long as I can remember, I think, before 0:02:52.316 --> 0:02:57.676 even kindergarten to the very last week before I left 0:02:57.676 --> 0:03:01.436 for college, had dinner together in a restaurant every Wednesday night. 0:03:01.636 --> 0:03:04.716 That was our way, and we would sit there and 0:03:04.716 --> 0:03:06.756 we would talk about all sorts of things, and one 0:03:06.756 --> 0:03:09.236 of the things we would talk about, which is weird 0:03:09.276 --> 0:03:14.156 family conversation, was his analytic clients. Now, of course he 0:03:14.196 --> 0:03:17.076 didn't tell me any names. He obscured some details because 0:03:17.156 --> 0:03:19.996 you know, he didn't want to break confidentiality. But you know, 0:03:20.036 --> 0:03:22.756 family conversation would be something like, oh, so you know, 0:03:22.876 --> 0:03:25.676 how's your narcissist doing. Oh, well, he had this dream. 0:03:25.676 --> 0:03:30.236 I think it really was, and so I began to wonder. 0:03:30.356 --> 0:03:37.476 I said, Dad, clearly, you're talking to people makes them 0:03:37.476 --> 0:03:39.676 better in many cases. And he said, yeah, it doesn't 0:03:39.676 --> 0:03:41.916 work every time, but most of the time it works. 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:44.476 People feel better, and they can feel better from things 0:03:44.516 --> 0:03:50.396 like compulsions or obsessions or depression. And that's rather remarkable. 0:03:50.436 --> 0:03:55.076 I said, how does mere conversation do that? And what 0:03:55.196 --> 0:03:58.276 my father said had an enormous impact on me. He said, 0:03:58.636 --> 0:04:03.356 when the talking cure works and makes people better, it 0:04:03.556 --> 0:04:08.916 ultimately does it not in some airy fairy realm, but 0:04:09.356 --> 0:04:11.996 by changing the brain, by changing the biology of the brain. 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:16.716 And at that moment it was like some wheels clicked 0:04:16.716 --> 0:04:19.756 in my head and I went, wow, yeah, he's right. 0:04:20.076 --> 0:04:23.556 What's that? I thought, Well, I don't have the right 0:04:23.596 --> 0:04:27.356 personality to be a psychotherapist like my dad. I'm not 0:04:27.436 --> 0:04:31.356 nearly nice enough. But maybe I could study the brain, 0:04:31.836 --> 0:04:34.436 and maybe that would be a different way to get 0:04:34.476 --> 0:04:36.556 at some of the same issues that my father's getting 0:04:36.556 --> 0:04:42.516 at at a more small scale biological level. 0:04:42.956 --> 0:04:45.876 What were some of the big questions that have guided 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:47.556 you over the course of your career. 0:04:48.836 --> 0:04:52.316 Well, I would say the fundamental question that I've been 0:04:52.396 --> 0:04:58.556 interested in is how does experience get stored in the brain, 0:04:58.796 --> 0:05:01.116 and how does it change the function of the brain. 0:05:01.196 --> 0:05:04.796 And that's something that we can now start to understand 0:05:04.836 --> 0:05:07.036 a little bit on a biological level, and that's what 0:05:07.036 --> 0:05:10.316 I've spent most of the last forty years working on. 0:05:11.396 --> 0:05:13.956 I want to fast forward in time to twenty twenty. 0:05:14.316 --> 0:05:18.076 You start feeling some unusual symptoms around this time. Do 0:05:18.076 --> 0:05:19.676 you mind bringing me back to that period? 0:05:20.356 --> 0:05:22.436 That's right, So the summer of twenty twenty, of course, 0:05:22.516 --> 0:05:25.116 is not a random time. COVID is raging. There's no 0:05:25.236 --> 0:05:28.516 vaccine yet, all kinds of people are getting sick, and 0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:31.836 it's a public health disaster. And in the summer of 0:05:31.836 --> 0:05:36.956 twenty twenty, I started to feel very fatigued, and I 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:40.036 had some respiratory symptoms, but the main thing is that 0:05:40.116 --> 0:05:44.316 I just felt surprisingly tired, Like halfway up a set 0:05:44.356 --> 0:05:46.196 of stairs, I would have to stop and catch my 0:05:46.236 --> 0:05:49.676 breath and huff and puff. And I thought, well, I'm 0:05:49.716 --> 0:05:52.556 testing negative for COVID, but it just must be a 0:05:52.716 --> 0:05:57.996 false negative. I've got half covid, because like everybody's got COVID, 0:05:58.036 --> 0:06:01.356 and these symptoms overlap to some degree with COVID symptoms. 0:06:01.356 --> 0:06:03.756 So I just figured, all right, I got COVID. There's 0:06:03.796 --> 0:06:06.236 really nothing to do about it, you know, I just 0:06:06.316 --> 0:06:09.356 have to stay by myself and wait it out all 0:06:09.396 --> 0:06:13.436 feel better. And I just wasn't feeling better, and my 0:06:13.556 --> 0:06:16.156 wife said, you know, you're just not feeling better. You 0:06:16.196 --> 0:06:17.956 got to go to the doctor. And so I went 0:06:17.996 --> 0:06:21.796 to the doctor and they saw that there was a big, 0:06:22.556 --> 0:06:26.796 huge mass poking up next to my heart that they 0:06:26.796 --> 0:06:31.076 didn't expect. So they imaged my heart and they found 0:06:31.076 --> 0:06:34.396 this huge mass and that was an indication that they 0:06:34.436 --> 0:06:38.156 needed to open up my chest and to open heart 0:06:38.236 --> 0:06:41.916 surgery and remove it. So they did that and it 0:06:42.076 --> 0:06:45.076 was a big, involved, unpleasant process, and I was in 0:06:45.076 --> 0:06:47.796 the hospital for ten days. And then they took the 0:06:47.836 --> 0:06:51.196 tissue that they had removed and they sent it off 0:06:51.236 --> 0:06:54.996 to the pathologist. And after a few days the report 0:06:55.036 --> 0:06:57.596 came back and the pathologists said, well, you have a 0:06:57.716 --> 0:07:03.796 rare kind of cancer called synovial sarcoma. And my oncologist said, 0:07:04.156 --> 0:07:07.596 you've got about six to eighteen months to live. And so, 0:07:08.036 --> 0:07:10.156 you know, that was quite the shock because it wasn't 0:07:10.236 --> 0:07:13.156 clear that this mass in my heart was going to 0:07:13.676 --> 0:07:17.196 be cancer or that it would be anything quite so bad. 0:07:18.156 --> 0:07:20.596 And do you remember what exact thoughts ran through your 0:07:20.636 --> 0:07:23.316 head when you first heard this diagnosis. 0:07:24.556 --> 0:07:33.476 Well, you know, I was really angry. I said, heart cancer. 0:07:33.876 --> 0:07:36.636 Nobody gets heart cancer. You're kidding? Is that even a thing? 0:07:37.436 --> 0:07:41.796 You know? It sounds fake. You know I've even heard 0:07:41.796 --> 0:07:43.836 of heart cancer. I have never heard of heart cancer. 0:07:43.836 --> 0:07:47.196 I didn't even know it was a phenomenon. It sounded 0:07:47.236 --> 0:07:50.436 to me like a made for TV movie, not a 0:07:50.476 --> 0:07:54.116 real diagnosis. I'm like, you're kidding me. But really, the 0:07:54.236 --> 0:07:58.156 main thing I was thinking about, and I might get 0:07:58.196 --> 0:08:08.756 a little weepy here with my family. You know, I've 0:08:08.796 --> 0:08:13.236 had a life. I'm sixty one years old. I got 0:08:13.276 --> 0:08:23.756 nothing to complain about. But you know, I don't want 0:08:23.796 --> 0:08:27.556 to leave my family behind. I don't want to leave 0:08:27.556 --> 0:08:30.756 my kids, my twenty six year old twins. I don't 0:08:30.756 --> 0:08:35.516 want to leave my wonderful wife, you know. And that's 0:08:35.676 --> 0:08:38.196 really what I was thinking about at the time. It's like, 0:08:39.596 --> 0:08:44.836 my consciousness can go away and I'm at peace with that. 0:08:47.196 --> 0:08:51.556 Leaving them behind, that prospect is what I find so hard, 0:08:51.636 --> 0:08:52.196 so wrenching. 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:58.556 Yeah, I'm wondering, David, if you could speak to what's 0:08:58.556 --> 0:09:01.116 been interesting to you about the way that you've responded 0:09:01.156 --> 0:09:02.556 to your diagnosis. 0:09:03.076 --> 0:09:07.796 So one thing I noticed was that when I got 0:09:07.796 --> 0:09:15.196 my cancer diagnosis, I felt two seemingly conflicting emotions at 0:09:15.236 --> 0:09:18.996 the same time. One was I was quite hot angry 0:09:19.076 --> 0:09:23.916 at the universe for having been struck with this obscure 0:09:24.276 --> 0:09:26.756 cancer at age sixty one, when I had so much 0:09:26.796 --> 0:09:30.316 left to do. But at the very same time, I 0:09:30.396 --> 0:09:34.636 felt a deep sense of gratitude about what life has 0:09:34.676 --> 0:09:41.076 given me so far. I've really, genuinely, and I don't 0:09:41.076 --> 0:09:42.956 think this is just a cancer guy looking back with 0:09:43.076 --> 0:09:47.836 rose colored glasses. I've really genuinely had a terrific life. 0:09:48.436 --> 0:09:52.516 I had wonderful parents, I had an unusually supportive group 0:09:52.556 --> 0:09:56.876 of friends in high school. We made our own weather, 0:09:57.476 --> 0:10:00.236 and it protected me from a lot of things that 0:10:00.276 --> 0:10:03.836 can be so painful and challenging in that stage of life. 0:10:04.396 --> 0:10:09.116 I have a job where I can follow my own 0:10:09.196 --> 0:10:15.236 own curiosity and inclinations every day, and I get paid 0:10:15.436 --> 0:10:19.356 decently for it. And that's a gift like no other 0:10:19.676 --> 0:10:22.996 to wake up in the morning and be able to say, Huh, 0:10:23.036 --> 0:10:25.476 what interests me today and what do I want to do? 0:10:26.196 --> 0:10:30.156 So I was very grateful for that and all the 0:10:30.196 --> 0:10:33.076 people who've been around me. My kids are terrific. You know, 0:10:33.356 --> 0:10:35.476 I have a wonderful family life, I have good friends. 0:10:35.476 --> 0:10:40.436 So I was simultaneously feeling very grateful and also really angry. 0:10:41.116 --> 0:10:44.876 And my training in neuroscience made me think, well, how 0:10:44.916 --> 0:10:47.316 can that really be? I mean, we think in terms 0:10:47.356 --> 0:10:51.996 of oppositional states, like you're either fighting or you're fleeing, 0:10:52.436 --> 0:10:56.196 and that's not the case at all. We can simultaneously 0:10:56.276 --> 0:11:02.396 occupy two very distinct mental states simultaneously, and I think, well, 0:11:02.676 --> 0:11:05.116 for many other people that would have been obvious to 0:11:05.156 --> 0:11:06.996 them to dumb me, that was a revelation. 0:11:09.356 --> 0:11:11.956 You know, David, I'm so interested to hear. You've just 0:11:11.996 --> 0:11:14.156 given me one example that I'm so interested to hear. 0:11:14.196 --> 0:11:18.636 How your perspective as a neuroscientist has informed how you're 0:11:18.636 --> 0:11:22.476 processing your terminal cancer diagnosis. In a piece you wrote 0:11:22.516 --> 0:11:25.876 for The Atlantic, you shared how it has led to 0:11:26.076 --> 0:11:30.036 some new and fresh insights about life and death and 0:11:30.076 --> 0:11:32.916 what it means to be human. And I pulled up 0:11:32.916 --> 0:11:35.116 one quote that really had a powerful impact on me. 0:11:35.356 --> 0:11:38.636 He wrote, the deep truth of being human is that 0:11:38.676 --> 0:11:42.796 there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built 0:11:42.836 --> 0:11:46.076 to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we 0:11:46.196 --> 0:11:51.476 perceive and feel is colored by expectation, comparison, and circumstance. 0:11:52.636 --> 0:11:58.316 I think everyone, if they think about their lives, is 0:11:58.396 --> 0:12:01.236 led to the same conclusion. You know. The example people 0:12:01.276 --> 0:12:05.956 always use is, well, half an hour in conversation with 0:12:06.036 --> 0:12:09.396 a good friend goes by in a flash, But half 0:12:09.436 --> 0:12:12.276 an hour waiting at the Department of Motor Vehicles in 0:12:12.316 --> 0:12:14.876 a hard plastic chair seems interminable. 0:12:16.076 --> 0:12:17.876 Right, Oh gosh, yeah, it's. 0:12:17.756 --> 0:12:21.556 The very same thing. Because I'm interested in the sense 0:12:21.596 --> 0:12:23.876 of touch, you know, one of the examples that comes 0:12:23.956 --> 0:12:27.436 up for me is that imagine you're with your sweetheart 0:12:27.556 --> 0:12:31.556 in a very loving, connected time and they stroke your 0:12:31.676 --> 0:12:33.636 arm and you go, oh, that's so nice, what a 0:12:33.996 --> 0:12:36.796 what a nice gesture. Oh that feels good. And then 0:12:36.916 --> 0:12:39.916 imagine that you're with that very same sweetheart and it's 0:12:39.956 --> 0:12:42.196 in the middle of an argument and it's not resolved. 0:12:42.196 --> 0:12:44.356 You're right in the middle of it, going back and forth, 0:12:44.636 --> 0:12:46.756 and they go to give you that very same caress, 0:12:46.756 --> 0:12:49.036 and it's exactly the same. It's the same place on 0:12:49.076 --> 0:12:51.676 your arm, it's the same pressure, it's the same speed 0:12:51.756 --> 0:12:54.836 moving along your skin. In terms of just the physics 0:12:54.836 --> 0:12:59.836 of it, it's indistinguishable. But are you going to feel, Oh, 0:12:59.876 --> 0:13:01.236 that's so nice, and you can be like, oh, get 0:13:01.276 --> 0:13:03.276 off me. It feels like a bug. It's terrible. Now 0:13:03.556 --> 0:13:05.116 what are you doing touching me that way in the 0:13:05.116 --> 0:13:06.516 middle of an argument? We're in the middle of an 0:13:06.556 --> 0:13:10.996 argument right now, right, and so the very same caress 0:13:11.836 --> 0:13:17.556 is delightful and bonding and one experience and feel so 0:13:18.436 --> 0:13:24.356 welcome and intrusive in another. In neuroscience and in psychology, 0:13:24.436 --> 0:13:29.756 we call this perception as inference, meaning that there is 0:13:29.836 --> 0:13:33.356 no objective truth out there through the world that somehow 0:13:33.356 --> 0:13:36.996 fights its way through our senses. Everything that we perceive 0:13:37.116 --> 0:13:41.476 through all our senses is colored by what we expect, 0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:46.636 what our mood is, what's going on in our lives. 0:13:46.916 --> 0:13:49.876 And the way it came up for me in terms 0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:54.636 of my cancer diagnosis had to do with time. And 0:13:54.716 --> 0:13:59.516 so if someone had said to me prior to my diagnosis, hey, 0:13:59.876 --> 0:14:02.836 we know that you've got five years left to live, 0:14:03.636 --> 0:14:05.636 I would have said, oh, no, I should have more 0:14:05.676 --> 0:14:08.676 than that. Oh that's terrible, Oh whatoe was me only 0:14:08.676 --> 0:14:12.076 five years to go? Whereas if someone tells me right 0:14:12.116 --> 0:14:14.916 after my cancer diagnosis, when I've been given the diagnosis 0:14:14.956 --> 0:14:17.836 of sixty eighteen months. Oh well, actually you'll have five 0:14:17.916 --> 0:14:21.596 years now. I'm going hooray. Five years. That's a whole 0:14:21.596 --> 0:14:23.836 lot better than eighteen months. Boy. I can do all 0:14:23.996 --> 0:14:26.676 kinds of things, you know. I can go traveling, I 0:14:26.716 --> 0:14:29.276 can spend time with all my good friends. I can 0:14:29.276 --> 0:14:32.756 get some work done. Five years is terrific. Thank you 0:14:32.836 --> 0:14:33.716 for the five years. 0:14:34.836 --> 0:14:39.236 I mean, given that you're now perceiving units of time differently, right, 0:14:39.356 --> 0:14:41.876 five years feel so expansive in a way that it 0:14:41.956 --> 0:14:45.276 never would have before. Has that changed it all the 0:14:45.276 --> 0:14:47.796 way that you're spending that time. Has it changed the 0:14:47.836 --> 0:14:52.076 way that you think about moments? 0:14:52.516 --> 0:14:59.036 Yeah, it sure does. I definitely feel like I need 0:14:59.156 --> 0:15:04.196 to ring all the delight I can out of life 0:15:04.236 --> 0:15:05.996 in the moment. I realize it's a little bit of 0:15:05.996 --> 0:15:11.116 a trite thing, but it's true. So this, I think 0:15:11.196 --> 0:15:14.756 has been manifest in some, you know, straightforward ways, like 0:15:14.876 --> 0:15:17.916 my wife and I take mortifications then we used to 0:15:18.236 --> 0:15:24.396 before my diagnosis, but also in some rather deep interpersonal ways. 0:15:24.876 --> 0:15:27.836 For example, my wife and I were not big arguers. 0:15:27.876 --> 0:15:31.396 It's not like we have a really contentious marriage, but 0:15:31.636 --> 0:15:36.396 in any serious relationship there's always some back and forth, 0:15:36.396 --> 0:15:38.556 a little bickering, and now you did this, and you 0:15:38.636 --> 0:15:42.756 said that, of course, And I think it's definitely easier 0:15:42.756 --> 0:15:47.276 to let stuff go when you're thinking, well, maybe my 0:15:47.436 --> 0:15:50.996 time left is limited, and I don't need actually to 0:15:51.316 --> 0:15:53.956 die on this hill of how the dishwasher was loaded. 0:15:58.156 --> 0:16:00.316 We'll be back in a moment with a spike change 0:16:00.356 --> 0:16:15.236 of plans. Neuroscientist David Lindon received a devastating diagnosis of 0:16:15.236 --> 0:16:19.516 heart cancer just shy of his sixtieth birthday. Soon after, 0:16:19.716 --> 0:16:23.276 he found himself fascinated by how his brain was reckoning 0:16:23.436 --> 0:16:24.396 with his mortality. 0:16:25.356 --> 0:16:29.196 When you're still with yourself and you think I won't 0:16:29.196 --> 0:16:31.156 be here there will be a time when I'm not here. 0:16:32.356 --> 0:16:38.196 I really find that, even doing my very best to 0:16:38.316 --> 0:16:42.916 be quiet and concentrate on that, at some level I fail. 0:16:43.556 --> 0:16:49.156 I really can't engage in a deep way with a 0:16:49.276 --> 0:16:53.476 world without me in it. And I thought, well, this 0:16:53.636 --> 0:16:56.916 just might be because I suck and other people can. 0:16:58.316 --> 0:17:00.596 But I suspect it's not. I mean not saying that 0:17:00.636 --> 0:17:03.836 I don't suck. I do, But you know, I think 0:17:03.876 --> 0:17:07.956 I don't think that's the entire story, David. 0:17:07.956 --> 0:17:11.236 I don't think you suck, for it's just putting it 0:17:11.236 --> 0:17:11.796 out there. 0:17:12.636 --> 0:17:15.276 You know. Part of this, I think is revealing something 0:17:15.356 --> 0:17:21.476 that's fundamental about being human. I think we as people 0:17:21.676 --> 0:17:26.316 have a hard time truly imagining our own demise a 0:17:26.396 --> 0:17:31.796 world without us in it. And when I think about 0:17:32.356 --> 0:17:35.756 what we know about the brain, I speculate about how 0:17:35.756 --> 0:17:37.956 this may have come to be. And for me, I'm 0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:40.116 an old guy. Now, I've been doing brain research for 0:17:40.116 --> 0:17:43.036 forty years, and so I've been in it long enough 0:17:43.076 --> 0:17:45.556 to see a shift in the way we think about 0:17:45.556 --> 0:17:49.596 brain function. Forty years ago, people thought about the brain 0:17:49.596 --> 0:17:53.156 as a fundamentally reactive structure. Oh, you're just sitting there 0:17:53.196 --> 0:17:55.756 and then you wait and something comes in through your senses, 0:17:55.836 --> 0:17:58.316 your eyes, your ears or whatever, and then some processing 0:17:58.356 --> 0:18:00.756 happens and then you react to it, you contract a muscle, 0:18:00.836 --> 0:18:03.996 you speak, whatever, And that's fundamentally what the brain is 0:18:04.036 --> 0:18:07.076 there doing. And what we have known for about more 0:18:07.236 --> 0:18:10.556 maybe the last fifteen or so years, is that really 0:18:10.596 --> 0:18:14.316 the brain is a prediction machine. That the brain's when 0:18:14.316 --> 0:18:16.556 nothing particularly is going on, you're just kind of spacing 0:18:16.596 --> 0:18:19.676 out an idling. Really, what you're doing in the background 0:18:19.716 --> 0:18:21.796 all the time is trying to make predictions about what's 0:18:21.836 --> 0:18:24.756 going to happen in the very near future. Is that 0:18:24.876 --> 0:18:26.596 ball flying through the air going to hit me in 0:18:26.596 --> 0:18:29.556 the error or will it zing by? Is this person 0:18:29.636 --> 0:18:32.636 coming up to me, friend or foe? Am I likely 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:34.636 to become hungry in the next two hours? And how 0:18:34.636 --> 0:18:38.996 should I plan for that? It's something that happens continually subconsciously, 0:18:40.036 --> 0:18:44.156 and I think the fact that our brains are always 0:18:44.316 --> 0:18:48.796 predicting the future in a deep way presupposes that there 0:18:48.836 --> 0:18:52.996 will be a future, right. The wiring of our brain 0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:55.636 is built on the idea that there will be a 0:18:55.716 --> 0:18:58.636 next moment and a moment after that, And so I 0:18:58.676 --> 0:19:02.236 think this makes it very hard as a human to 0:19:02.916 --> 0:19:06.876 truly imagine yourself gone, because that next moment is a 0:19:06.916 --> 0:19:12.436 thing that's deep in our consciousness. So that's really true 0:19:12.476 --> 0:19:15.196 is on an individual level, but it really got me 0:19:15.276 --> 0:19:20.996 thinking about the world's religions. In almost every religion, not everyone, 0:19:21.036 --> 0:19:25.716 but nearly everyone, there is a concept of the afterlife 0:19:26.516 --> 0:19:30.756 or reincarnation or melding with the divine, or some way 0:19:30.756 --> 0:19:33.356 of going on after you die, that your consciousness endures 0:19:33.396 --> 0:19:40.476 after you die. And so my hypothesis about why after 0:19:40.556 --> 0:19:44.476 death stories are a near universal around the world is 0:19:44.516 --> 0:19:49.436 because our brains are wired to imagine that there will 0:19:49.516 --> 0:19:53.076 be a next moment, and that through culture, this has 0:19:53.156 --> 0:19:56.276 come up with all these different after death stories. 0:19:57.596 --> 0:19:59.836 You know. One thought experiment I've used to try to 0:19:59.916 --> 0:20:04.356 imagine a world without me is simply to imagine the 0:20:04.436 --> 0:20:07.276 year before I was born. And for some reason it's 0:20:07.436 --> 0:20:10.716 very very comfortable for me to imagine that that world existed. 0:20:10.876 --> 0:20:14.156 So like nineteen eighty four, that was a year everyone 0:20:14.236 --> 0:20:16.636 was in it. Mayo is not here. And so I 0:20:16.676 --> 0:20:19.756 do wonder, David, whether it's possible to kind of transfer 0:20:20.636 --> 0:20:22.996 that psychological state of comfort where it's like, of course, 0:20:22.996 --> 0:20:24.636 the world existed without me in it. In fact, it 0:20:24.676 --> 0:20:27.516 existed without me in it up until that very point 0:20:27.596 --> 0:20:31.636 where I came into existence, to the current situation you're in, 0:20:32.156 --> 0:20:35.356 because in many ways, your pre birth state is exactly 0:20:35.396 --> 0:20:36.876 what you're going to be occupying. 0:20:37.956 --> 0:20:42.196 Yeah, well that is a really interesting and valuable point, 0:20:42.316 --> 0:20:45.316 And yet somehow it doesn't seem quite. 0:20:45.076 --> 0:20:48.316 The same, doesn't It doesn't Because we have this entire 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:51.916 lived experience and self identity that we're clinging onto and 0:20:51.956 --> 0:20:54.996 a consciousness that we're clinging onto, and that because that 0:20:55.036 --> 0:20:58.596 consciousness is now going to be annihilated. I completely agree. 0:20:58.636 --> 0:21:02.956 It is not easy to view things effortlessly through the 0:21:02.996 --> 0:21:04.836 lens I just described. I just wondered if it was 0:21:04.876 --> 0:21:06.636 something that can make all of us feel a little 0:21:06.636 --> 0:21:09.076 more comfy with the idea of our non existence. 0:21:09.716 --> 0:21:12.956 I think it's a great idea. Yes, I'm with you, 0:21:13.716 --> 0:21:18.236 And I also think it's crucial to ask the question, 0:21:18.476 --> 0:21:23.476 you know, if there's something that is so prevalent in 0:21:23.636 --> 0:21:27.956 human culture, and even if you don't share those beliefs, 0:21:28.636 --> 0:21:33.316 it's arrogant and annoying to just say, well, people who 0:21:33.316 --> 0:21:36.516 believe that are just dumb, and what are they thinking? 0:21:36.556 --> 0:21:40.036 In these are made up stories? You know, that doesn't 0:21:40.236 --> 0:21:43.276 I mean, first of all, it's a dick move, and 0:21:43.756 --> 0:21:47.316 second of all, is intellectually it doesn't get you anywhere 0:21:47.356 --> 0:21:50.636 at all. So, okay, maybe you're a non believer. But 0:21:50.676 --> 0:21:54.156 if you're a non believer, then you should be really 0:21:54.196 --> 0:21:59.116 interested in why are certain things so prevalent cross culturally? 0:21:59.156 --> 0:22:03.436 I mean, these are fundamental aspects of our being human. 0:22:03.676 --> 0:22:06.236 And to have your answer be well, people are stupid. 0:22:06.876 --> 0:22:10.916 I think it's not just arrogant. I think it's fundamentally incurious. 0:22:12.476 --> 0:22:16.076 It seems like you're really calling upon your curiosity about 0:22:16.076 --> 0:22:18.876 how our minds work to help you navigate this time, 0:22:18.916 --> 0:22:21.196 to help you get through this time. Tell me more 0:22:21.236 --> 0:22:24.396 about the role that this kind of curiosity is playing 0:22:24.636 --> 0:22:26.116 in your life right now. 0:22:26.676 --> 0:22:31.876 Well, you know, I think curiosity to me is like 0:22:31.956 --> 0:22:34.756 the grease that makes all the gears go around, right, 0:22:34.836 --> 0:22:40.236 It's fundamental, as like oxygen. And I think generally there 0:22:40.236 --> 0:22:44.916 are many endeavors not just science, where you think about 0:22:44.996 --> 0:22:49.676 in question the world around you. And when you get 0:22:49.676 --> 0:22:53.876 a cancer diagnosis or something similar like that, you're really 0:22:53.916 --> 0:22:57.036 feeling buffeted and at the whims of fate. And you know, 0:22:57.116 --> 0:23:01.036 a lot of the medical treatments you have to endure, chemotherapy, radiation, 0:23:01.436 --> 0:23:05.636 you know, it's not an empowering process. You really don't 0:23:05.676 --> 0:23:09.276 feel like you're in charge. And so I think it's 0:23:09.276 --> 0:23:14.036 so crucial in these times to have some sense of 0:23:14.516 --> 0:23:24.436 agency and individual volition. And so for me confronting my 0:23:25.116 --> 0:23:30.316 medical diagnosis with curiosity about the world and asking what 0:23:30.356 --> 0:23:34.076 does this make me think about the world generally, and 0:23:34.156 --> 0:23:38.076 how can I interrogate my own mental processes and perhaps 0:23:38.596 --> 0:23:42.316 reveal something to myself about the mind or the brain. 0:23:43.796 --> 0:23:51.476 That's therapy. And so to me, curiosity is what allows 0:23:51.556 --> 0:23:56.756 me to continue to have a positive outlook even in 0:23:57.556 --> 0:23:59.076 dire circumstances. 0:23:59.876 --> 0:24:03.876 You know, it strikes me that curiosity is one of 0:24:03.916 --> 0:24:06.676 those things that you can hold on to that the 0:24:06.676 --> 0:24:09.476 world simply cannot take away from you in this moment. 0:24:09.516 --> 0:24:13.316 It cannot deny you the right to be interested and 0:24:13.476 --> 0:24:17.076 intrigued and to marvel at how things work. 0:24:18.276 --> 0:24:22.516 That's right. And you can even make you marvel about 0:24:22.596 --> 0:24:27.476 things that are deeply unpleasant in the moment. You know, 0:24:27.636 --> 0:24:31.516 I'm blessed to have a rather sunny disposition. I've been 0:24:31.756 --> 0:24:35.516 fortunate to not have much of a predisposition for depression, 0:24:35.556 --> 0:24:37.676 and I don't take any credit for that. I was 0:24:37.836 --> 0:24:42.236 lucky to be born that way. But when I was 0:24:42.396 --> 0:24:47.836 undergoing chemotherapy and radiation, the radiation was aimed at my heart, 0:24:47.836 --> 0:24:50.836 but it then burns your esophagus because you can't help 0:24:50.876 --> 0:24:52.796 it hit the esophagus when you're aimed at the heart, 0:24:53.356 --> 0:24:57.316 and it means you can't swallow. So for weeks I 0:24:57.316 --> 0:25:00.836 couldn't eat food. I could only swallow liquids. I couldn't 0:25:00.876 --> 0:25:04.276 eat anything solid, and it hurt like hell all the time, 0:25:04.876 --> 0:25:10.476 and my energy was low, and thing just didn't feel right, 0:25:10.596 --> 0:25:13.716 and I felt messed around with, you know, and you're 0:25:13.756 --> 0:25:16.796 talking about a sense of agency. I always feeling like 0:25:17.036 --> 0:25:20.076 I do not have my normal sense of agency. I 0:25:20.116 --> 0:25:24.476 am at the mercy of these treatments. And you know, 0:25:24.596 --> 0:25:28.116 even though I'm a pretty positive person, I started to 0:25:28.196 --> 0:25:32.836 feel pretty low in those days. Day after day, you 0:25:32.876 --> 0:25:35.716 wake up and you feel bad in your body. It's 0:25:35.796 --> 0:25:41.956 almost impossible to have a sunny disposition. But the one 0:25:41.996 --> 0:25:46.236 thing that really kind of kept me going then was curiosity. 0:25:46.236 --> 0:25:49.756 I'm like, well, why am I feeling so bad? Is 0:25:49.796 --> 0:25:57.276 it because of inflammation? Is it because the radiation and 0:25:57.316 --> 0:26:00.996 the chemo are causing my immune system to produce a 0:26:01.036 --> 0:26:04.356 class of molecule we call pro inflammatory cytokines, and we 0:26:04.436 --> 0:26:06.876 know that those tend to lead to depression in the brain. 0:26:07.676 --> 0:26:11.196 So while I'm lying there feeling terrible in the midst 0:26:11.236 --> 0:26:13.636 of chemo, I'm kind of going, huh, I wonder if 0:26:13.676 --> 0:26:16.796 I wonder what I interlutin six levels. You're like right now, 0:26:16.996 --> 0:26:19.956 you know, you know, which is a deeply nerdly thing 0:26:20.196 --> 0:26:25.556 to do. But it's also empowering, right, It's also it's 0:26:25.676 --> 0:26:29.716 also you know, claws back a tiny bit of agency 0:26:30.236 --> 0:26:33.876