1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:15,396 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,516 --> 00:00:36,556 Speaker 2: I was really angry, I said, heart cancer. Nobody gets 3 00:00:36,636 --> 00:00:38,636 Speaker 2: heart cancer, kidding? Is that even a thing? 4 00:00:39,836 --> 00:00:44,116 Speaker 1: At just fifty nine years old, neuroscientist David Lindon received 5 00:00:44,156 --> 00:00:48,156 Speaker 1: a startling diagnosis. He was told he only had six 6 00:00:48,196 --> 00:00:51,316 Speaker 1: months to live, maybe a few more if he was lucky. 7 00:00:52,236 --> 00:00:55,276 Speaker 1: But now it's been more than two years and David, 8 00:00:55,396 --> 00:00:58,796 Speaker 1: thank goodness, is still here and in the face of 9 00:00:58,836 --> 00:01:02,636 Speaker 1: his terminal diagnosis, he's still thinking like a scientist. 10 00:01:03,116 --> 00:01:09,596 Speaker 2: Confronting my medical diagnosis with curiosity about the world and 11 00:01:09,716 --> 00:01:13,716 Speaker 2: asking how can I interrogate my own mental processes and 12 00:01:13,836 --> 00:01:18,556 Speaker 2: perhaps reveal something to myself about the mind or the brain? 13 00:01:19,636 --> 00:01:21,356 Speaker 2: That's therapy. 14 00:01:24,796 --> 00:01:27,796 Speaker 1: On today's episode, we hear how a student of the 15 00:01:27,876 --> 00:01:33,596 Speaker 1: human mind is grappling with his own mortality. I'm Maya Shunker, 16 00:01:33,836 --> 00:01:36,236 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show 17 00:01:36,276 --> 00:01:38,636 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 18 00:01:38,636 --> 00:02:01,876 Speaker 1: face of a big change. David Lindon is a professor 19 00:02:01,876 --> 00:02:05,756 Speaker 1: of neuroscience in the School of Medicine at Johns Hopkins University. 20 00:02:06,396 --> 00:02:09,036 Speaker 1: He's written five books in more than one hundred peerod 21 00:02:09,356 --> 00:02:12,996 Speaker 1: papers on the science of memory, addiction, and brain injury. 22 00:02:13,916 --> 00:02:17,676 Speaker 1: David has always been a deeply curious person. As a 23 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:20,956 Speaker 1: kid growing up in southern California, he was obsessed with 24 00:02:21,036 --> 00:02:24,796 Speaker 1: watching Jacques Cousteau on TV. For a while, he thought 25 00:02:24,796 --> 00:02:28,396 Speaker 1: he become a deep sea explorer or a marine biologist. 26 00:02:29,236 --> 00:02:32,756 Speaker 1: But then one day he had this life changing conversation 27 00:02:32,916 --> 00:02:33,556 Speaker 1: with his father. 28 00:02:34,516 --> 00:02:39,996 Speaker 2: My father was a psychoanalyst, meeting an old fashioned lawe 29 00:02:39,996 --> 00:02:42,436 Speaker 2: on the couch, tell me about your dreams four days 30 00:02:42,436 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 2: a week, talking cure psychotherapist. And my father and I, 31 00:02:48,876 --> 00:02:51,476 Speaker 2: from as long as I can remember, I think, before 32 00:02:52,316 --> 00:02:57,676 Speaker 2: even kindergarten to the very last week before I left 33 00:02:57,676 --> 00:03:01,436 Speaker 2: for college, had dinner together in a restaurant every Wednesday night. 34 00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:04,716 Speaker 2: That was our way, and we would sit there and 35 00:03:04,716 --> 00:03:06,756 Speaker 2: we would talk about all sorts of things, and one 36 00:03:06,756 --> 00:03:09,236 Speaker 2: of the things we would talk about, which is weird 37 00:03:09,276 --> 00:03:14,156 Speaker 2: family conversation, was his analytic clients. Now, of course he 38 00:03:14,196 --> 00:03:17,076 Speaker 2: didn't tell me any names. He obscured some details because 39 00:03:17,156 --> 00:03:19,996 Speaker 2: you know, he didn't want to break confidentiality. But you know, 40 00:03:20,036 --> 00:03:22,756 Speaker 2: family conversation would be something like, oh, so you know, 41 00:03:22,876 --> 00:03:25,676 Speaker 2: how's your narcissist doing. Oh, well, he had this dream. 42 00:03:25,676 --> 00:03:30,236 Speaker 2: I think it really was, and so I began to wonder. 43 00:03:30,356 --> 00:03:37,476 Speaker 2: I said, Dad, clearly, you're talking to people makes them 44 00:03:37,476 --> 00:03:39,676 Speaker 2: better in many cases. And he said, yeah, it doesn't 45 00:03:39,676 --> 00:03:41,916 Speaker 2: work every time, but most of the time it works. 46 00:03:41,956 --> 00:03:44,476 Speaker 2: People feel better, and they can feel better from things 47 00:03:44,516 --> 00:03:50,396 Speaker 2: like compulsions or obsessions or depression. And that's rather remarkable. 48 00:03:50,436 --> 00:03:55,076 Speaker 2: I said, how does mere conversation do that? And what 49 00:03:55,196 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 2: my father said had an enormous impact on me. He said, 50 00:03:58,636 --> 00:04:03,356 Speaker 2: when the talking cure works and makes people better, it 51 00:04:03,556 --> 00:04:08,916 Speaker 2: ultimately does it not in some airy fairy realm, but 52 00:04:09,356 --> 00:04:11,996 Speaker 2: by changing the brain, by changing the biology of the brain. 53 00:04:12,636 --> 00:04:16,716 Speaker 2: And at that moment it was like some wheels clicked 54 00:04:16,716 --> 00:04:19,756 Speaker 2: in my head and I went, wow, yeah, he's right. 55 00:04:20,076 --> 00:04:23,556 Speaker 2: What's that? I thought, Well, I don't have the right 56 00:04:23,596 --> 00:04:27,356 Speaker 2: personality to be a psychotherapist like my dad. I'm not 57 00:04:27,436 --> 00:04:31,356 Speaker 2: nearly nice enough. But maybe I could study the brain, 58 00:04:31,836 --> 00:04:34,436 Speaker 2: and maybe that would be a different way to get 59 00:04:34,476 --> 00:04:36,556 Speaker 2: at some of the same issues that my father's getting 60 00:04:36,556 --> 00:04:42,516 Speaker 2: at at a more small scale biological level. 61 00:04:42,956 --> 00:04:45,876 Speaker 1: What were some of the big questions that have guided 62 00:04:45,916 --> 00:04:47,556 Speaker 1: you over the course of your career. 63 00:04:48,836 --> 00:04:52,316 Speaker 2: Well, I would say the fundamental question that I've been 64 00:04:52,396 --> 00:04:58,556 Speaker 2: interested in is how does experience get stored in the brain, 65 00:04:58,796 --> 00:05:01,116 Speaker 2: and how does it change the function of the brain. 66 00:05:01,196 --> 00:05:04,796 Speaker 2: And that's something that we can now start to understand 67 00:05:04,836 --> 00:05:07,036 Speaker 2: a little bit on a biological level, and that's what 68 00:05:07,036 --> 00:05:10,316 Speaker 2: I've spent most of the last forty years working on. 69 00:05:11,396 --> 00:05:13,956 Speaker 1: I want to fast forward in time to twenty twenty. 70 00:05:14,316 --> 00:05:18,076 Speaker 1: You start feeling some unusual symptoms around this time. Do 71 00:05:18,076 --> 00:05:19,676 Speaker 1: you mind bringing me back to that period? 72 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:22,436 Speaker 2: That's right, So the summer of twenty twenty, of course, 73 00:05:22,516 --> 00:05:25,116 Speaker 2: is not a random time. COVID is raging. There's no 74 00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:28,516 Speaker 2: vaccine yet, all kinds of people are getting sick, and 75 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:31,836 Speaker 2: it's a public health disaster. And in the summer of 76 00:05:31,836 --> 00:05:36,956 Speaker 2: twenty twenty, I started to feel very fatigued, and I 77 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:40,036 Speaker 2: had some respiratory symptoms, but the main thing is that 78 00:05:40,116 --> 00:05:44,316 Speaker 2: I just felt surprisingly tired, Like halfway up a set 79 00:05:44,356 --> 00:05:46,196 Speaker 2: of stairs, I would have to stop and catch my 80 00:05:46,236 --> 00:05:49,676 Speaker 2: breath and huff and puff. And I thought, well, I'm 81 00:05:49,716 --> 00:05:52,556 Speaker 2: testing negative for COVID, but it just must be a 82 00:05:52,716 --> 00:05:57,996 Speaker 2: false negative. I've got half covid, because like everybody's got COVID, 83 00:05:58,036 --> 00:06:01,356 Speaker 2: and these symptoms overlap to some degree with COVID symptoms. 84 00:06:01,356 --> 00:06:03,756 Speaker 2: So I just figured, all right, I got COVID. There's 85 00:06:03,796 --> 00:06:06,236 Speaker 2: really nothing to do about it, you know, I just 86 00:06:06,316 --> 00:06:09,356 Speaker 2: have to stay by myself and wait it out all 87 00:06:09,396 --> 00:06:13,436 Speaker 2: feel better. And I just wasn't feeling better, and my 88 00:06:13,556 --> 00:06:16,156 Speaker 2: wife said, you know, you're just not feeling better. You 89 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:17,956 Speaker 2: got to go to the doctor. And so I went 90 00:06:17,996 --> 00:06:21,796 Speaker 2: to the doctor and they saw that there was a big, 91 00:06:22,556 --> 00:06:26,796 Speaker 2: huge mass poking up next to my heart that they 92 00:06:26,796 --> 00:06:31,076 Speaker 2: didn't expect. So they imaged my heart and they found 93 00:06:31,076 --> 00:06:34,396 Speaker 2: this huge mass and that was an indication that they 94 00:06:34,436 --> 00:06:38,156 Speaker 2: needed to open up my chest and to open heart 95 00:06:38,236 --> 00:06:41,916 Speaker 2: surgery and remove it. So they did that and it 96 00:06:42,076 --> 00:06:45,076 Speaker 2: was a big, involved, unpleasant process, and I was in 97 00:06:45,076 --> 00:06:47,796 Speaker 2: the hospital for ten days. And then they took the 98 00:06:47,836 --> 00:06:51,196 Speaker 2: tissue that they had removed and they sent it off 99 00:06:51,236 --> 00:06:54,996 Speaker 2: to the pathologist. And after a few days the report 100 00:06:55,036 --> 00:06:57,596 Speaker 2: came back and the pathologists said, well, you have a 101 00:06:57,716 --> 00:07:03,796 Speaker 2: rare kind of cancer called synovial sarcoma. And my oncologist said, 102 00:07:04,156 --> 00:07:07,596 Speaker 2: you've got about six to eighteen months to live. And so, 103 00:07:08,036 --> 00:07:10,156 Speaker 2: you know, that was quite the shock because it wasn't 104 00:07:10,236 --> 00:07:13,156 Speaker 2: clear that this mass in my heart was going to 105 00:07:13,676 --> 00:07:17,196 Speaker 2: be cancer or that it would be anything quite so bad. 106 00:07:18,156 --> 00:07:20,596 Speaker 1: And do you remember what exact thoughts ran through your 107 00:07:20,636 --> 00:07:23,316 Speaker 1: head when you first heard this diagnosis. 108 00:07:24,556 --> 00:07:33,476 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I was really angry. I said, heart cancer. 109 00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:36,636 Speaker 2: Nobody gets heart cancer. You're kidding? Is that even a thing? 110 00:07:37,436 --> 00:07:41,796 Speaker 2: You know? It sounds fake. You know I've even heard 111 00:07:41,796 --> 00:07:43,836 Speaker 2: of heart cancer. I have never heard of heart cancer. 112 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:47,196 Speaker 2: I didn't even know it was a phenomenon. It sounded 113 00:07:47,236 --> 00:07:50,436 Speaker 2: to me like a made for TV movie, not a 114 00:07:50,476 --> 00:07:54,116 Speaker 2: real diagnosis. I'm like, you're kidding me. But really, the 115 00:07:54,236 --> 00:07:58,156 Speaker 2: main thing I was thinking about, and I might get 116 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:08,756 Speaker 2: a little weepy here with my family. You know, I've 117 00:08:08,796 --> 00:08:13,236 Speaker 2: had a life. I'm sixty one years old. I got 118 00:08:13,276 --> 00:08:23,756 Speaker 2: nothing to complain about. But you know, I don't want 119 00:08:23,796 --> 00:08:27,556 Speaker 2: to leave my family behind. I don't want to leave 120 00:08:27,556 --> 00:08:30,756 Speaker 2: my kids, my twenty six year old twins. I don't 121 00:08:30,756 --> 00:08:35,516 Speaker 2: want to leave my wonderful wife, you know. And that's 122 00:08:35,676 --> 00:08:38,196 Speaker 2: really what I was thinking about at the time. It's like, 123 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:44,836 Speaker 2: my consciousness can go away and I'm at peace with that. 124 00:08:47,196 --> 00:08:51,556 Speaker 2: Leaving them behind, that prospect is what I find so hard, 125 00:08:51,636 --> 00:08:52,196 Speaker 2: so wrenching. 126 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:58,556 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering, David, if you could speak to what's 127 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:01,116 Speaker 1: been interesting to you about the way that you've responded 128 00:09:01,156 --> 00:09:02,556 Speaker 1: to your diagnosis. 129 00:09:03,076 --> 00:09:07,796 Speaker 2: So one thing I noticed was that when I got 130 00:09:07,796 --> 00:09:15,196 Speaker 2: my cancer diagnosis, I felt two seemingly conflicting emotions at 131 00:09:15,236 --> 00:09:18,996 Speaker 2: the same time. One was I was quite hot angry 132 00:09:19,076 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 2: at the universe for having been struck with this obscure 133 00:09:24,276 --> 00:09:26,756 Speaker 2: cancer at age sixty one, when I had so much 134 00:09:26,796 --> 00:09:30,316 Speaker 2: left to do. But at the very same time, I 135 00:09:30,396 --> 00:09:34,636 Speaker 2: felt a deep sense of gratitude about what life has 136 00:09:34,676 --> 00:09:41,076 Speaker 2: given me so far. I've really, genuinely, and I don't 137 00:09:41,076 --> 00:09:42,956 Speaker 2: think this is just a cancer guy looking back with 138 00:09:43,076 --> 00:09:47,836 Speaker 2: rose colored glasses. I've really genuinely had a terrific life. 139 00:09:48,436 --> 00:09:52,516 Speaker 2: I had wonderful parents, I had an unusually supportive group 140 00:09:52,556 --> 00:09:56,876 Speaker 2: of friends in high school. We made our own weather, 141 00:09:57,476 --> 00:10:00,236 Speaker 2: and it protected me from a lot of things that 142 00:10:00,276 --> 00:10:03,836 Speaker 2: can be so painful and challenging in that stage of life. 143 00:10:04,396 --> 00:10:09,116 Speaker 2: I have a job where I can follow my own 144 00:10:09,196 --> 00:10:15,236 Speaker 2: own curiosity and inclinations every day, and I get paid 145 00:10:15,436 --> 00:10:19,356 Speaker 2: decently for it. And that's a gift like no other 146 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:22,996 Speaker 2: to wake up in the morning and be able to say, Huh, 147 00:10:23,036 --> 00:10:25,476 Speaker 2: what interests me today and what do I want to do? 148 00:10:26,196 --> 00:10:30,156 Speaker 2: So I was very grateful for that and all the 149 00:10:30,196 --> 00:10:33,076 Speaker 2: people who've been around me. My kids are terrific. You know, 150 00:10:33,356 --> 00:10:35,476 Speaker 2: I have a wonderful family life, I have good friends. 151 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:40,436 Speaker 2: So I was simultaneously feeling very grateful and also really angry. 152 00:10:41,116 --> 00:10:44,876 Speaker 2: And my training in neuroscience made me think, well, how 153 00:10:44,916 --> 00:10:47,316 Speaker 2: can that really be? I mean, we think in terms 154 00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:51,996 Speaker 2: of oppositional states, like you're either fighting or you're fleeing, 155 00:10:52,436 --> 00:10:56,196 Speaker 2: and that's not the case at all. We can simultaneously 156 00:10:56,276 --> 00:11:02,396 Speaker 2: occupy two very distinct mental states simultaneously, and I think, well, 157 00:11:02,676 --> 00:11:05,116 Speaker 2: for many other people that would have been obvious to 158 00:11:05,156 --> 00:11:06,996 Speaker 2: them to dumb me, that was a revelation. 159 00:11:09,356 --> 00:11:11,956 Speaker 1: You know, David, I'm so interested to hear. You've just 160 00:11:11,996 --> 00:11:14,156 Speaker 1: given me one example that I'm so interested to hear. 161 00:11:14,196 --> 00:11:18,636 Speaker 1: How your perspective as a neuroscientist has informed how you're 162 00:11:18,636 --> 00:11:22,476 Speaker 1: processing your terminal cancer diagnosis. In a piece you wrote 163 00:11:22,516 --> 00:11:25,876 Speaker 1: for The Atlantic, you shared how it has led to 164 00:11:26,076 --> 00:11:30,036 Speaker 1: some new and fresh insights about life and death and 165 00:11:30,076 --> 00:11:32,916 Speaker 1: what it means to be human. And I pulled up 166 00:11:32,916 --> 00:11:35,116 Speaker 1: one quote that really had a powerful impact on me. 167 00:11:35,356 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 1: He wrote, the deep truth of being human is that 168 00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:42,796 Speaker 1: there is no objective experience. Our brains are not built 169 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:46,076 Speaker 1: to measure the absolute value of anything. All that we 170 00:11:46,196 --> 00:11:51,476 Speaker 1: perceive and feel is colored by expectation, comparison, and circumstance. 171 00:11:52,636 --> 00:11:58,316 Speaker 2: I think everyone, if they think about their lives, is 172 00:11:58,396 --> 00:12:01,236 Speaker 2: led to the same conclusion. You know. The example people 173 00:12:01,276 --> 00:12:05,956 Speaker 2: always use is, well, half an hour in conversation with 174 00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:09,396 Speaker 2: a good friend goes by in a flash, But half 175 00:12:09,436 --> 00:12:12,276 Speaker 2: an hour waiting at the Department of Motor Vehicles in 176 00:12:12,316 --> 00:12:14,876 Speaker 2: a hard plastic chair seems interminable. 177 00:12:16,076 --> 00:12:17,876 Speaker 1: Right, Oh gosh, yeah, it's. 178 00:12:17,756 --> 00:12:21,556 Speaker 2: The very same thing. Because I'm interested in the sense 179 00:12:21,596 --> 00:12:23,876 Speaker 2: of touch, you know, one of the examples that comes 180 00:12:23,956 --> 00:12:27,436 Speaker 2: up for me is that imagine you're with your sweetheart 181 00:12:27,556 --> 00:12:31,556 Speaker 2: in a very loving, connected time and they stroke your 182 00:12:31,676 --> 00:12:33,636 Speaker 2: arm and you go, oh, that's so nice, what a 183 00:12:33,996 --> 00:12:36,796 Speaker 2: what a nice gesture. Oh that feels good. And then 184 00:12:36,916 --> 00:12:39,916 Speaker 2: imagine that you're with that very same sweetheart and it's 185 00:12:39,956 --> 00:12:42,196 Speaker 2: in the middle of an argument and it's not resolved. 186 00:12:42,196 --> 00:12:44,356 Speaker 2: You're right in the middle of it, going back and forth, 187 00:12:44,636 --> 00:12:46,756 Speaker 2: and they go to give you that very same caress, 188 00:12:46,756 --> 00:12:49,036 Speaker 2: and it's exactly the same. It's the same place on 189 00:12:49,076 --> 00:12:51,676 Speaker 2: your arm, it's the same pressure, it's the same speed 190 00:12:51,756 --> 00:12:54,836 Speaker 2: moving along your skin. In terms of just the physics 191 00:12:54,836 --> 00:12:59,836 Speaker 2: of it, it's indistinguishable. But are you going to feel, Oh, 192 00:12:59,876 --> 00:13:01,236 Speaker 2: that's so nice, and you can be like, oh, get 193 00:13:01,276 --> 00:13:03,276 Speaker 2: off me. It feels like a bug. It's terrible. Now 194 00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:05,116 Speaker 2: what are you doing touching me that way in the 195 00:13:05,116 --> 00:13:06,516 Speaker 2: middle of an argument? We're in the middle of an 196 00:13:06,556 --> 00:13:10,996 Speaker 2: argument right now, right, and so the very same caress 197 00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:17,556 Speaker 2: is delightful and bonding and one experience and feel so 198 00:13:18,436 --> 00:13:24,356 Speaker 2: welcome and intrusive in another. In neuroscience and in psychology, 199 00:13:24,436 --> 00:13:29,756 Speaker 2: we call this perception as inference, meaning that there is 200 00:13:29,836 --> 00:13:33,356 Speaker 2: no objective truth out there through the world that somehow 201 00:13:33,356 --> 00:13:36,996 Speaker 2: fights its way through our senses. Everything that we perceive 202 00:13:37,116 --> 00:13:41,476 Speaker 2: through all our senses is colored by what we expect, 203 00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:46,636 Speaker 2: what our mood is, what's going on in our lives. 204 00:13:46,916 --> 00:13:49,876 Speaker 2: And the way it came up for me in terms 205 00:13:49,876 --> 00:13:54,636 Speaker 2: of my cancer diagnosis had to do with time. And 206 00:13:54,716 --> 00:13:59,516 Speaker 2: so if someone had said to me prior to my diagnosis, hey, 207 00:13:59,876 --> 00:14:02,836 Speaker 2: we know that you've got five years left to live, 208 00:14:03,636 --> 00:14:05,636 Speaker 2: I would have said, oh, no, I should have more 209 00:14:05,676 --> 00:14:08,676 Speaker 2: than that. Oh that's terrible, Oh whatoe was me only 210 00:14:08,676 --> 00:14:12,076 Speaker 2: five years to go? Whereas if someone tells me right 211 00:14:12,116 --> 00:14:14,916 Speaker 2: after my cancer diagnosis, when I've been given the diagnosis 212 00:14:14,956 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 2: of sixty eighteen months. Oh well, actually you'll have five 213 00:14:17,916 --> 00:14:21,596 Speaker 2: years now. I'm going hooray. Five years. That's a whole 214 00:14:21,596 --> 00:14:23,836 Speaker 2: lot better than eighteen months. Boy. I can do all 215 00:14:23,996 --> 00:14:26,676 Speaker 2: kinds of things, you know. I can go traveling, I 216 00:14:26,716 --> 00:14:29,276 Speaker 2: can spend time with all my good friends. I can 217 00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:32,756 Speaker 2: get some work done. Five years is terrific. Thank you 218 00:14:32,836 --> 00:14:33,716 Speaker 2: for the five years. 219 00:14:34,836 --> 00:14:39,236 Speaker 1: I mean, given that you're now perceiving units of time differently, right, 220 00:14:39,356 --> 00:14:41,876 Speaker 1: five years feel so expansive in a way that it 221 00:14:41,956 --> 00:14:45,276 Speaker 1: never would have before. Has that changed it all the 222 00:14:45,276 --> 00:14:47,796 Speaker 1: way that you're spending that time. Has it changed the 223 00:14:47,836 --> 00:14:52,076 Speaker 1: way that you think about moments? 224 00:14:52,516 --> 00:14:59,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sure does. I definitely feel like I need 225 00:14:59,156 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 2: to ring all the delight I can out of life 226 00:15:04,236 --> 00:15:05,996 Speaker 2: in the moment. I realize it's a little bit of 227 00:15:05,996 --> 00:15:11,116 Speaker 2: a trite thing, but it's true. So this, I think 228 00:15:11,196 --> 00:15:14,756 Speaker 2: has been manifest in some, you know, straightforward ways, like 229 00:15:14,876 --> 00:15:17,916 Speaker 2: my wife and I take mortifications then we used to 230 00:15:18,236 --> 00:15:24,396 Speaker 2: before my diagnosis, but also in some rather deep interpersonal ways. 231 00:15:24,876 --> 00:15:27,836 Speaker 2: For example, my wife and I were not big arguers. 232 00:15:27,876 --> 00:15:31,396 Speaker 2: It's not like we have a really contentious marriage, but 233 00:15:31,636 --> 00:15:36,396 Speaker 2: in any serious relationship there's always some back and forth, 234 00:15:36,396 --> 00:15:38,556 Speaker 2: a little bickering, and now you did this, and you 235 00:15:38,636 --> 00:15:42,756 Speaker 2: said that, of course, And I think it's definitely easier 236 00:15:42,756 --> 00:15:47,276 Speaker 2: to let stuff go when you're thinking, well, maybe my 237 00:15:47,436 --> 00:15:50,996 Speaker 2: time left is limited, and I don't need actually to 238 00:15:51,316 --> 00:15:53,956 Speaker 2: die on this hill of how the dishwasher was loaded. 239 00:15:58,156 --> 00:16:00,316 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a spike change 240 00:16:00,356 --> 00:16:15,236 Speaker 1: of plans. Neuroscientist David Lindon received a devastating diagnosis of 241 00:16:15,236 --> 00:16:19,516 Speaker 1: heart cancer just shy of his sixtieth birthday. Soon after, 242 00:16:19,716 --> 00:16:23,276 Speaker 1: he found himself fascinated by how his brain was reckoning 243 00:16:23,436 --> 00:16:24,396 Speaker 1: with his mortality. 244 00:16:25,356 --> 00:16:29,196 Speaker 2: When you're still with yourself and you think I won't 245 00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:31,156 Speaker 2: be here there will be a time when I'm not here. 246 00:16:32,356 --> 00:16:38,196 Speaker 2: I really find that, even doing my very best to 247 00:16:38,316 --> 00:16:42,916 Speaker 2: be quiet and concentrate on that, at some level I fail. 248 00:16:43,556 --> 00:16:49,156 Speaker 2: I really can't engage in a deep way with a 249 00:16:49,276 --> 00:16:53,476 Speaker 2: world without me in it. And I thought, well, this 250 00:16:53,636 --> 00:16:56,916 Speaker 2: just might be because I suck and other people can. 251 00:16:58,316 --> 00:17:00,596 Speaker 2: But I suspect it's not. I mean not saying that 252 00:17:00,636 --> 00:17:03,836 Speaker 2: I don't suck. I do, But you know, I think 253 00:17:03,876 --> 00:17:07,956 Speaker 2: I don't think that's the entire story, David. 254 00:17:07,956 --> 00:17:11,236 Speaker 1: I don't think you suck, for it's just putting it 255 00:17:11,236 --> 00:17:11,796 Speaker 1: out there. 256 00:17:12,636 --> 00:17:15,276 Speaker 2: You know. Part of this, I think is revealing something 257 00:17:15,356 --> 00:17:21,476 Speaker 2: that's fundamental about being human. I think we as people 258 00:17:21,676 --> 00:17:26,316 Speaker 2: have a hard time truly imagining our own demise a 259 00:17:26,396 --> 00:17:31,796 Speaker 2: world without us in it. And when I think about 260 00:17:32,356 --> 00:17:35,756 Speaker 2: what we know about the brain, I speculate about how 261 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:37,956 Speaker 2: this may have come to be. And for me, I'm 262 00:17:37,996 --> 00:17:40,116 Speaker 2: an old guy. Now, I've been doing brain research for 263 00:17:40,116 --> 00:17:43,036 Speaker 2: forty years, and so I've been in it long enough 264 00:17:43,076 --> 00:17:45,556 Speaker 2: to see a shift in the way we think about 265 00:17:45,556 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 2: brain function. Forty years ago, people thought about the brain 266 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:53,156 Speaker 2: as a fundamentally reactive structure. Oh, you're just sitting there 267 00:17:53,196 --> 00:17:55,756 Speaker 2: and then you wait and something comes in through your senses, 268 00:17:55,836 --> 00:17:58,316 Speaker 2: your eyes, your ears or whatever, and then some processing 269 00:17:58,356 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 2: happens and then you react to it, you contract a muscle, 270 00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:03,996 Speaker 2: you speak, whatever, And that's fundamentally what the brain is 271 00:18:04,036 --> 00:18:07,076 Speaker 2: there doing. And what we have known for about more 272 00:18:07,236 --> 00:18:10,556 Speaker 2: maybe the last fifteen or so years, is that really 273 00:18:10,596 --> 00:18:14,316 Speaker 2: the brain is a prediction machine. That the brain's when 274 00:18:14,316 --> 00:18:16,556 Speaker 2: nothing particularly is going on, you're just kind of spacing 275 00:18:16,596 --> 00:18:19,676 Speaker 2: out an idling. Really, what you're doing in the background 276 00:18:19,716 --> 00:18:21,796 Speaker 2: all the time is trying to make predictions about what's 277 00:18:21,836 --> 00:18:24,756 Speaker 2: going to happen in the very near future. Is that 278 00:18:24,876 --> 00:18:26,596 Speaker 2: ball flying through the air going to hit me in 279 00:18:26,596 --> 00:18:29,556 Speaker 2: the error or will it zing by? Is this person 280 00:18:29,636 --> 00:18:32,636 Speaker 2: coming up to me, friend or foe? Am I likely 281 00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:34,636 Speaker 2: to become hungry in the next two hours? And how 282 00:18:34,636 --> 00:18:38,996 Speaker 2: should I plan for that? It's something that happens continually subconsciously, 283 00:18:40,036 --> 00:18:44,156 Speaker 2: and I think the fact that our brains are always 284 00:18:44,316 --> 00:18:48,796 Speaker 2: predicting the future in a deep way presupposes that there 285 00:18:48,836 --> 00:18:52,996 Speaker 2: will be a future, right. The wiring of our brain 286 00:18:53,476 --> 00:18:55,636 Speaker 2: is built on the idea that there will be a 287 00:18:55,716 --> 00:18:58,636 Speaker 2: next moment and a moment after that, And so I 288 00:18:58,676 --> 00:19:02,236 Speaker 2: think this makes it very hard as a human to 289 00:19:02,916 --> 00:19:06,876 Speaker 2: truly imagine yourself gone, because that next moment is a 290 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:12,436 Speaker 2: thing that's deep in our consciousness. So that's really true 291 00:19:12,476 --> 00:19:15,196 Speaker 2: is on an individual level, but it really got me 292 00:19:15,276 --> 00:19:20,996 Speaker 2: thinking about the world's religions. In almost every religion, not everyone, 293 00:19:21,036 --> 00:19:25,716 Speaker 2: but nearly everyone, there is a concept of the afterlife 294 00:19:26,516 --> 00:19:30,756 Speaker 2: or reincarnation or melding with the divine, or some way 295 00:19:30,756 --> 00:19:33,356 Speaker 2: of going on after you die, that your consciousness endures 296 00:19:33,396 --> 00:19:40,476 Speaker 2: after you die. And so my hypothesis about why after 297 00:19:40,556 --> 00:19:44,476 Speaker 2: death stories are a near universal around the world is 298 00:19:44,516 --> 00:19:49,436 Speaker 2: because our brains are wired to imagine that there will 299 00:19:49,516 --> 00:19:53,076 Speaker 2: be a next moment, and that through culture, this has 300 00:19:53,156 --> 00:19:56,276 Speaker 2: come up with all these different after death stories. 301 00:19:57,596 --> 00:19:59,836 Speaker 1: You know. One thought experiment I've used to try to 302 00:19:59,916 --> 00:20:04,356 Speaker 1: imagine a world without me is simply to imagine the 303 00:20:04,436 --> 00:20:07,276 Speaker 1: year before I was born. And for some reason it's 304 00:20:07,436 --> 00:20:10,716 Speaker 1: very very comfortable for me to imagine that that world existed. 305 00:20:10,876 --> 00:20:14,156 Speaker 1: So like nineteen eighty four, that was a year everyone 306 00:20:14,236 --> 00:20:16,636 Speaker 1: was in it. Mayo is not here. And so I 307 00:20:16,676 --> 00:20:19,756 Speaker 1: do wonder, David, whether it's possible to kind of transfer 308 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:22,996 Speaker 1: that psychological state of comfort where it's like, of course, 309 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:24,636 Speaker 1: the world existed without me in it. In fact, it 310 00:20:24,676 --> 00:20:27,516 Speaker 1: existed without me in it up until that very point 311 00:20:27,596 --> 00:20:31,636 Speaker 1: where I came into existence, to the current situation you're in, 312 00:20:32,156 --> 00:20:35,356 Speaker 1: because in many ways, your pre birth state is exactly 313 00:20:35,396 --> 00:20:36,876 Speaker 1: what you're going to be occupying. 314 00:20:37,956 --> 00:20:42,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that is a really interesting and valuable point, 315 00:20:42,316 --> 00:20:45,316 Speaker 2: And yet somehow it doesn't seem quite. 316 00:20:45,076 --> 00:20:48,316 Speaker 1: The same, doesn't It doesn't Because we have this entire 317 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:51,916 Speaker 1: lived experience and self identity that we're clinging onto and 318 00:20:51,956 --> 00:20:54,996 Speaker 1: a consciousness that we're clinging onto, and that because that 319 00:20:55,036 --> 00:20:58,596 Speaker 1: consciousness is now going to be annihilated. I completely agree. 320 00:20:58,636 --> 00:21:02,956 Speaker 1: It is not easy to view things effortlessly through the 321 00:21:02,996 --> 00:21:04,836 Speaker 1: lens I just described. I just wondered if it was 322 00:21:04,876 --> 00:21:06,636 Speaker 1: something that can make all of us feel a little 323 00:21:06,636 --> 00:21:09,076 Speaker 1: more comfy with the idea of our non existence. 324 00:21:09,716 --> 00:21:12,956 Speaker 2: I think it's a great idea. Yes, I'm with you, 325 00:21:13,716 --> 00:21:18,236 Speaker 2: And I also think it's crucial to ask the question, 326 00:21:18,476 --> 00:21:23,476 Speaker 2: you know, if there's something that is so prevalent in 327 00:21:23,636 --> 00:21:27,956 Speaker 2: human culture, and even if you don't share those beliefs, 328 00:21:28,636 --> 00:21:33,316 Speaker 2: it's arrogant and annoying to just say, well, people who 329 00:21:33,316 --> 00:21:36,516 Speaker 2: believe that are just dumb, and what are they thinking? 330 00:21:36,556 --> 00:21:40,036 Speaker 2: In these are made up stories? You know, that doesn't 331 00:21:40,236 --> 00:21:43,276 Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, it's a dick move, and 332 00:21:43,756 --> 00:21:47,316 Speaker 2: second of all, is intellectually it doesn't get you anywhere 333 00:21:47,356 --> 00:21:50,636 Speaker 2: at all. So, okay, maybe you're a non believer. But 334 00:21:50,676 --> 00:21:54,156 Speaker 2: if you're a non believer, then you should be really 335 00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:59,116 Speaker 2: interested in why are certain things so prevalent cross culturally? 336 00:21:59,156 --> 00:22:03,436 Speaker 2: I mean, these are fundamental aspects of our being human. 337 00:22:03,676 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 2: And to have your answer be well, people are stupid. 338 00:22:06,876 --> 00:22:10,916 Speaker 2: I think it's not just arrogant. I think it's fundamentally incurious. 339 00:22:12,476 --> 00:22:16,076 Speaker 1: It seems like you're really calling upon your curiosity about 340 00:22:16,076 --> 00:22:18,876 Speaker 1: how our minds work to help you navigate this time, 341 00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:21,196 Speaker 1: to help you get through this time. Tell me more 342 00:22:21,236 --> 00:22:24,396 Speaker 1: about the role that this kind of curiosity is playing 343 00:22:24,636 --> 00:22:26,116 Speaker 1: in your life right now. 344 00:22:26,676 --> 00:22:31,876 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think curiosity to me is like 345 00:22:31,956 --> 00:22:34,756 Speaker 2: the grease that makes all the gears go around, right, 346 00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:40,236 Speaker 2: It's fundamental, as like oxygen. And I think generally there 347 00:22:40,236 --> 00:22:44,916 Speaker 2: are many endeavors not just science, where you think about 348 00:22:44,996 --> 00:22:49,676 Speaker 2: in question the world around you. And when you get 349 00:22:49,676 --> 00:22:53,876 Speaker 2: a cancer diagnosis or something similar like that, you're really 350 00:22:53,916 --> 00:22:57,036 Speaker 2: feeling buffeted and at the whims of fate. And you know, 351 00:22:57,116 --> 00:23:01,036 Speaker 2: a lot of the medical treatments you have to endure, chemotherapy, radiation, 352 00:23:01,436 --> 00:23:05,636 Speaker 2: you know, it's not an empowering process. You really don't 353 00:23:05,676 --> 00:23:09,276 Speaker 2: feel like you're in charge. And so I think it's 354 00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:14,036 Speaker 2: so crucial in these times to have some sense of 355 00:23:14,516 --> 00:23:24,436 Speaker 2: agency and individual volition. And so for me confronting my 356 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 2: medical diagnosis with curiosity about the world and asking what 357 00:23:30,356 --> 00:23:34,076 Speaker 2: does this make me think about the world generally, and 358 00:23:34,156 --> 00:23:38,076 Speaker 2: how can I interrogate my own mental processes and perhaps 359 00:23:38,596 --> 00:23:42,316 Speaker 2: reveal something to myself about the mind or the brain. 360 00:23:43,796 --> 00:23:51,476 Speaker 2: That's therapy. And so to me, curiosity is what allows 361 00:23:51,556 --> 00:23:56,756 Speaker 2: me to continue to have a positive outlook even in 362 00:23:57,556 --> 00:23:59,076 Speaker 2: dire circumstances. 363 00:23:59,876 --> 00:24:03,876 Speaker 1: You know, it strikes me that curiosity is one of 364 00:24:03,916 --> 00:24:06,676 Speaker 1: those things that you can hold on to that the 365 00:24:06,676 --> 00:24:09,476 Speaker 1: world simply cannot take away from you in this moment. 366 00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:13,316 Speaker 1: It cannot deny you the right to be interested and 367 00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:17,076 Speaker 1: intrigued and to marvel at how things work. 368 00:24:18,276 --> 00:24:22,516 Speaker 2: That's right. And you can even make you marvel about 369 00:24:22,596 --> 00:24:27,476 Speaker 2: things that are deeply unpleasant in the moment. You know, 370 00:24:27,636 --> 00:24:31,516 Speaker 2: I'm blessed to have a rather sunny disposition. I've been 371 00:24:31,756 --> 00:24:35,516 Speaker 2: fortunate to not have much of a predisposition for depression, 372 00:24:35,556 --> 00:24:37,676 Speaker 2: and I don't take any credit for that. I was 373 00:24:37,836 --> 00:24:42,236 Speaker 2: lucky to be born that way. But when I was 374 00:24:42,396 --> 00:24:47,836 Speaker 2: undergoing chemotherapy and radiation, the radiation was aimed at my heart, 375 00:24:47,836 --> 00:24:50,836 Speaker 2: but it then burns your esophagus because you can't help 376 00:24:50,876 --> 00:24:52,796 Speaker 2: it hit the esophagus when you're aimed at the heart, 377 00:24:53,356 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 2: and it means you can't swallow. So for weeks I 378 00:24:57,316 --> 00:25:00,836 Speaker 2: couldn't eat food. I could only swallow liquids. I couldn't 379 00:25:00,876 --> 00:25:04,276 Speaker 2: eat anything solid, and it hurt like hell all the time, 380 00:25:04,876 --> 00:25:10,476 Speaker 2: and my energy was low, and thing just didn't feel right, 381 00:25:10,596 --> 00:25:13,716 Speaker 2: and I felt messed around with, you know, and you're 382 00:25:13,756 --> 00:25:16,796 Speaker 2: talking about a sense of agency. I always feeling like 383 00:25:17,036 --> 00:25:20,076 Speaker 2: I do not have my normal sense of agency. I 384 00:25:20,116 --> 00:25:24,476 Speaker 2: am at the mercy of these treatments. And you know, 385 00:25:24,596 --> 00:25:28,116 Speaker 2: even though I'm a pretty positive person, I started to 386 00:25:28,196 --> 00:25:32,836 Speaker 2: feel pretty low in those days. Day after day, you 387 00:25:32,876 --> 00:25:35,716 Speaker 2: wake up and you feel bad in your body. It's 388 00:25:35,796 --> 00:25:41,956 Speaker 2: almost impossible to have a sunny disposition. But the one 389 00:25:41,996 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 2: thing that really kind of kept me going then was curiosity. 390 00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:49,756 Speaker 2: I'm like, well, why am I feeling so bad? Is 391 00:25:49,796 --> 00:25:57,276 Speaker 2: it because of inflammation? Is it because the radiation and 392 00:25:57,316 --> 00:26:00,996 Speaker 2: the chemo are causing my immune system to produce a 393 00:26:01,036 --> 00:26:04,356 Speaker 2: class of molecule we call pro inflammatory cytokines, and we 394 00:26:04,436 --> 00:26:06,876 Speaker 2: know that those tend to lead to depression in the brain. 395 00:26:07,676 --> 00:26:11,196 Speaker 2: So while I'm lying there feeling terrible in the midst 396 00:26:11,236 --> 00:26:13,636 Speaker 2: of chemo, I'm kind of going, huh, I wonder if 397 00:26:13,676 --> 00:26:16,796 Speaker 2: I wonder what I interlutin six levels. You're like right now, 398 00:26:16,996 --> 00:26:19,956 Speaker 2: you know, you know, which is a deeply nerdly thing 399 00:26:20,196 --> 00:26:25,556 Speaker 2: to do. But it's also empowering, right, It's also it's 400 00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:29,716 Speaker 2: also you know, claws back a tiny bit of agency 401 00:26:30,236 --> 00:26:33,876 Speaker 2: from a situation that is otherwise pretty bereft of it. 402 00:26:34,436 --> 00:26:37,996 Speaker 1: I mean, okay, it's it's such a charming story. And 403 00:26:38,236 --> 00:26:39,876 Speaker 1: you know, I will say I think I'm a pretty 404 00:26:39,876 --> 00:26:43,356 Speaker 1: curious person, but I think my curiosity has limits. And 405 00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:48,556 Speaker 1: you know, it feels relatively easy to feel wonder about 406 00:26:48,596 --> 00:26:50,636 Speaker 1: the world or how things work when things are going well, 407 00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:54,956 Speaker 1: But man, is it hard when you're in the middle 408 00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:57,956 Speaker 1: of chemotherapy and radiation or you're facing a terminal illness. 409 00:26:57,996 --> 00:27:00,676 Speaker 1: Like I can tell you, if my esophagus was being 410 00:27:00,716 --> 00:27:04,876 Speaker 1: burned in any way whatsoever, you would hear zero curiosity 411 00:27:04,876 --> 00:27:08,156 Speaker 1: from me. Okay, I'd be like, what the f this 412 00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:10,876 Speaker 1: is awful? Well, I'm not that interested in whether it's 413 00:27:10,876 --> 00:27:13,516 Speaker 1: a roading tissue or whether the cells are doing x RA, 414 00:27:13,556 --> 00:27:15,996 Speaker 1: while if you like, this effing sucks. And so I 415 00:27:16,036 --> 00:27:17,916 Speaker 1: want to get some advice from you in this moment, 416 00:27:17,996 --> 00:27:21,156 Speaker 1: Like you know, the mere plebeians among us, the normal 417 00:27:21,156 --> 00:27:23,636 Speaker 1: people here who are listening to you, David, the neuroscientists 418 00:27:23,676 --> 00:27:25,516 Speaker 1: who aren't empowered with all the knowledge you have and 419 00:27:25,556 --> 00:27:29,996 Speaker 1: maybe aren't as curious as you are. How can we 420 00:27:30,076 --> 00:27:35,276 Speaker 1: cultivate more curiosity during moments of extreme hardship, because that 421 00:27:35,436 --> 00:27:36,796 Speaker 1: is actually a tall order. 422 00:27:37,636 --> 00:27:42,276 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I guess it's almost like a procrresplanation problem. 423 00:27:42,916 --> 00:27:45,436 Speaker 2: In other words, it's like, how do you take the 424 00:27:45,476 --> 00:27:49,756 Speaker 2: first step? If you can get yourself like a little 425 00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:53,276 Speaker 2: curious about one aspect of it, maybe you'll feel enough 426 00:27:53,316 --> 00:27:55,436 Speaker 2: reward that you'd be motivated to go a little further 427 00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:58,396 Speaker 2: and a little further. This is really speculative. 428 00:27:57,836 --> 00:28:00,436 Speaker 1: Now, right, Yeah, you're getting your foot in the door. 429 00:28:00,556 --> 00:28:02,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just imagining. 430 00:28:02,276 --> 00:28:05,956 Speaker 1: Yeah, But I also think maybe a more modest recommendation 431 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:08,716 Speaker 1: for people who are just trying to get their feet 432 00:28:08,716 --> 00:28:10,836 Speaker 1: wet filing a bit more curious is to say, look, 433 00:28:11,236 --> 00:28:13,316 Speaker 1: you don't have to be captivated by the details of 434 00:28:13,316 --> 00:28:15,716 Speaker 1: your illness. Okay, that is a tall order. It might 435 00:28:15,756 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 1: require some biological or neuroscientific expertise like that, that's too 436 00:28:19,876 --> 00:28:23,036 Speaker 1: hard of a task. But we can be curious about 437 00:28:23,076 --> 00:28:26,036 Speaker 1: something in the throes of hartshet. We can be curious 438 00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:27,836 Speaker 1: about why we feel the way that we feel. We 439 00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:30,876 Speaker 1: can be curious about why the sun sets in the 440 00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:34,476 Speaker 1: way that it sets. There are endless topics for us 441 00:28:34,516 --> 00:28:37,196 Speaker 1: to be curious about and to learn about. And what 442 00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:41,636 Speaker 1: I'm hearing from Your whole story is that curiosity can 443 00:28:41,676 --> 00:28:44,316 Speaker 1: be a companion for us in these really tough moments 444 00:28:44,316 --> 00:28:48,076 Speaker 1: because it won't abandon us. It's always there. It's always 445 00:28:48,076 --> 00:28:51,276 Speaker 1: something that we can feed and that's a very stabilizing 446 00:28:51,396 --> 00:28:56,596 Speaker 1: force against the backdrop of complete uncertainty and calamity, which 447 00:28:56,596 --> 00:28:58,276 Speaker 1: is what we often experience when we're going through the 448 00:28:58,276 --> 00:28:59,556 Speaker 1: hardest moments of our lives. 449 00:29:00,356 --> 00:29:03,276 Speaker 2: Right, And I would add that you can be curious 450 00:29:03,356 --> 00:29:06,476 Speaker 2: about the social world, you can be curious about art. 451 00:29:06,596 --> 00:29:11,356 Speaker 2: Your curiosity can manifest like how can I convey what 452 00:29:11,436 --> 00:29:15,156 Speaker 2: I'm feeling now in a song or a poem or 453 00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:16,236 Speaker 2: a painting or a. 454 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:18,916 Speaker 1: Drawing, yeah, or what the meaning of life is? 455 00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:26,516 Speaker 2: In other words, these are all fundamentally acts of curiosity, 456 00:29:26,556 --> 00:29:30,236 Speaker 2: and they don't have to involve science. Those are the 457 00:29:30,276 --> 00:29:33,676 Speaker 2: ones that I'm drawn to because that's my background. I 458 00:29:33,716 --> 00:29:37,356 Speaker 2: would say, in a more global sense, harnessing curiosity can 459 00:29:37,436 --> 00:29:39,516 Speaker 2: happen in so many different ways. 460 00:29:39,716 --> 00:29:44,076 Speaker 1: Yeah, you are living well beyond the prognosis you were given. 461 00:29:44,236 --> 00:29:46,436 Speaker 1: So as you mentioned in April twenty twenty one, you 462 00:29:46,476 --> 00:29:48,876 Speaker 1: were told you had six to eighteen months to live, 463 00:29:49,436 --> 00:29:53,356 Speaker 1: and now it has been over two years. As you 464 00:29:53,396 --> 00:29:57,836 Speaker 1: look towards the future and what lies ahead. How do 465 00:29:57,876 --> 00:30:00,636 Speaker 1: you feel? What do you see? 466 00:30:00,956 --> 00:30:06,356 Speaker 2: It's all gravy, That's how I feel. You know, there's 467 00:30:06,396 --> 00:30:11,556 Speaker 2: a cognitive shift in the sense that I've got these 468 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:16,236 Speaker 2: extra innings and so it would be a shame to 469 00:30:16,996 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 2: not use them in a way that is enjoyable and 470 00:30:20,636 --> 00:30:28,356 Speaker 2: connecting and empowering and fulfilling. So yeah, there's a silver 471 00:30:28,796 --> 00:30:33,116 Speaker 2: lining to terminal illness when you're granted a little extra 472 00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:36,756 Speaker 2: and I certainly feel compelled to live it as well 473 00:30:36,756 --> 00:30:37,436 Speaker 2: as possible. 474 00:31:11,956 --> 00:31:14,716 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you enjoyed this 475 00:31:14,796 --> 00:31:18,396 Speaker 1: conversation with David, you may also enjoy another episode called 476 00:31:18,436 --> 00:31:22,436 Speaker 1: The Life Changing Diagnosis. It features my friend Scott, who 477 00:31:22,516 --> 00:31:25,596 Speaker 1: I spoke with just after he received a stage four 478 00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:28,836 Speaker 1: cancer diagnosis. I then followed up with him a year 479 00:31:28,916 --> 00:31:33,036 Speaker 1: later after he successfully completed cancer treatment. We'll link to 480 00:31:33,076 --> 00:31:36,436 Speaker 1: both episodes in the show notes. And I'm excited to 481 00:31:36,476 --> 00:31:39,636 Speaker 1: share that this summer we're curating a series to showcase 482 00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:43,036 Speaker 1: your favorite episodes, So stick around for some of the 483 00:31:43,076 --> 00:31:46,916 Speaker 1: all time greats recommended by your fellows Slight Change listeners, 484 00:31:47,716 --> 00:31:50,356 Speaker 1: and later this fall, we're back with brand new episodes 485 00:31:50,396 --> 00:31:52,676 Speaker 1: of a Slight Change of Plans. I hope you have 486 00:31:52,716 --> 00:32:05,676 Speaker 1: a wonderful rest of your summer. See you soon. A 487 00:32:05,716 --> 00:32:08,916 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive produced 488 00:32:08,956 --> 00:32:12,596 Speaker 1: by me Maya Shunker. The Slight Change family includes our 489 00:32:12,596 --> 00:32:17,356 Speaker 1: showrunner Tyler Green, our senior editor Kate Parkinson Morgan, our 490 00:32:17,396 --> 00:32:22,716 Speaker 1: producer Trisha Bobida, and our sound engineer Andrew Vestola. Luis 491 00:32:22,756 --> 00:32:26,356 Speaker 1: Scara wrote our delightful theme song and Ginger Smith helped 492 00:32:26,436 --> 00:32:29,196 Speaker 1: arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is a 493 00:32:29,236 --> 00:32:32,796 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks to everyone there, 494 00:32:33,436 --> 00:32:36,756 Speaker 1: and of course a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. 495 00:32:37,276 --> 00:32:39,756 Speaker 1: You can follow A Slight Change of Plans on Instagram 496 00:32:39,796 --> 00:32:57,996 Speaker 1: at doctor Maya Shunker.