1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I think a lot 2 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: of us have heard that phrase at two Brute. That 3 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: term is actually a phrase that Shakespeare penned when he 4 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 1: was writing one of his best known plays regarding Caesar. 5 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: It played during the Elizabethan times, and it captivated the 6 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: crowd because it was the story of a leader that 7 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: was slain by those in his inner circle. Of course, 8 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: the phrase itself points to Brutus, who was certainly in 9 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: Caesar's inner circle, But is it really how his death happened? 10 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: And of course we like to talk about death, and 11 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about the assassination of Julius 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: Caesar and his autopsy. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 13 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: is Bodybags, Great Caesar's Ghost Dave Mack. I want to 14 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: have a conversation with you today about a historical figure 15 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: going back a couple of thousand years. Now, we're going 16 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: to talk about the death of Julius Caesar at the 17 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: hands of those that surrounded him in a very public 18 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: area otherwise known as the forum. You up for this, 19 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: Dave Mack. 20 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: IDEs of March is upon us and a lot of 21 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: people like me. All we know about Julius Caesar is 22 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 2: what Shakespeare wrote? When did Shakespeare write Julius Caesar fifteen 23 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 2: ninety nine sixteen hundred somewhere in there for the opening 24 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: of the Globe Theater. You're talking about something that was 25 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: written a long time after the event took place. So 26 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: you've got a lot of memories, you've got a lot 27 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: of scattered stories, and you don't know the truth from 28 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: the lie. And that's why it's so fascinating. When you 29 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: told me this autopsy, I thought you were making it up. 30 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: But I thought they don't do autopsies back then. He's 31 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: making this up. What if we did an autopsy that 32 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 2: kind of thing. When you told me that this was 33 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 2: the first autopsy, I thought, Holy moly, we've got a conspiracy. 34 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 2: We've got being stabbed in the back by his best friends, 35 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: by people he trusted, by people he believed in. That's 36 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 2: what the setting is for all of the rigmarole that 37 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: then proceeded. Everything that took place centered around politics, power, money, 38 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 2: throw sex in there, and if they had rock and 39 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 2: roll to be rock and roll, this had everything. 40 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things here is it brings us 41 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,399 Speaker 1: to this big question, what's the purpose of an autopsy. 42 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 1: I probably misspoke when I said that was the first autopsy. 43 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: People have been examining human remains for hundreds and hundreds 44 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: of years. 45 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:51,839 Speaker 2: Isn't that how we've learned biology. 46 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: There have been times where it was forbidden by law 47 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 1: to actually dissect or what's referred to as a pro 48 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: section of human remains. It was forbidden. That's where grave 49 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: robin came from. Many times medical students would pay grave 50 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: robbers to go out and grab bodies and disinter bodies 51 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: and bring them in so that they could look and 52 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: begin to understand human anatomy. Can you imagine being a 53 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,920 Speaker 1: physician and not understanding how we function. 54 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 2: You've got a medical practice, Okay, I get it. They're 55 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: practicing medicine, but they're not allowed to actually look at 56 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 2: a real body. So they're assuming and guessing at certain things. 57 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 2: And their best thing is get that blue jay over here, 58 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 2: and let's see if we can get him to peck 59 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: on that eyebrow to fix his eyesight. 60 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: Well, I haven't thought about it that way, but yeah, 61 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. There are many locations, I think now 62 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: in medical education where they're using three dimensional digital autopsies 63 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: or digital gross dissections in some instances where these are 64 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: replacing actual dissection by medical students. I have a problem 65 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: with that. I think there's a tactile nature to this. 66 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: There's also a bigger reason, I think in the case 67 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: of Caesar, when he was this victim of homicide, and 68 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: it was a brutal homicide. This is something that was 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: done on the fifteenth of March, the IDEs of March. 70 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, this is something that was done in 71 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 1: kind of a closed area. And when I say closed, 72 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: I'm saying the general public was not allowed to be 73 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: within this space. You're talking senators that were in this environment. 74 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 1: He was seated on a gold throne. He'd made entrance 75 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: into this location called the Portico, where they had a 76 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: throne set aside for him there. People think a lot 77 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: about Caesar, a crossing the Rubicon and all those things 78 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: that he had done. He was a masterful general. He 79 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: was a beloved figure among the common people of that time, 80 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: and the senators were very elitist. They truly were. It's 81 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: hard to frame it any other way. This was very 82 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: threatening to them. One of the interesting parts to Caesar's 83 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: life is that he had adjusted, apparently his will just 84 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 1: prior to his assassination almost like a portent of what 85 00:04:58,080 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: was to come, to guarantee that all citizens within Rome 86 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: had three months worth of salary upon his death in 87 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: order to grieve him properly. You can imagine how that 88 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: kind of resonated with the common folk. They're looking at 89 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: senators and they're thinking, these people aren't doing anything for us. 90 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,360 Speaker 1: Here we have our supreme leader that even upon his debt, 91 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: he's going to leave us money. He had a real 92 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 1: common touch apparently, so when they did this autopsy, the 93 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 1: purpose of this, I think, and we can explore this further, 94 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: but the purpose of this was to demonstrate first off, 95 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: that Caesar was dead. Because they didn't have mass media, obviously, 96 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: many people would not believe that he was dead. They 97 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: had to confirm that he was in fact dead, and 98 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: then to kick it up a notch. It was done 99 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: in such a manner that the public were made aware 100 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: of how horrendous this attack was when he was set 101 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: upon by these people that were occupying the space in 102 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: the Senate that day. 103 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 2: An amazing conspiracy that went into taking out one of 104 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 2: the most beloved leaders at the time in the world. 105 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 2: It wasn't like Rome was an island off to itself. 106 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 2: It was a big part of what was taking place 107 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: around the world. Everybody knew Julius Caesar. 108 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: The Roman expansion had not occurred to the point where 109 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: we finally know it at its peak, but it was 110 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,520 Speaker 1: from a Western perspective. It was a world that had 111 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: people from the former Persian Empire that were part of it, 112 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 1: and you had people as far away as where modern 113 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: day France is. He had made his name by going 114 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: out with his armies and defeating what they referred to 115 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: as barbarians and keeping the hordes at bay, if you will. 116 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:48,760 Speaker 1: That was part of his entry into the pantheonon He 117 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: achieved almost a godlike status through his actions. As a general. 118 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: He was known, and the fact that this was done 119 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: in such a public way was really bold upon the 120 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: people that were conspiring to do this. You have these 121 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: areas in your life where you don't necessarily believe any 122 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: harm can come to you. But Caesar had been warned. 123 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: He had been warned in the days leading up to 124 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: this fatal attack beware the odds of March, which is 125 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: actually the fifteenth of March. He was told that great 126 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: harm was going to come to me. As a matter 127 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: of fact, it is told that his wife had troubling 128 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: nightmares in the immediate nights preceding his death, and he 129 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: had gone some links to try to reassure her that 130 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: he was going to be okay. There were people that 131 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: were begging him not to go to the Senate. So 132 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: it was in the air. It was floating about how 133 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: is it possible for this many people to keep a secret. 134 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: Have you ever shared something with someone and you want 135 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: to keep it hush hush, and then all of a 136 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: sudden you get wind of it. How is that possible? 137 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: But he's surrounded by nest of vipers by the time 138 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: he walks into that room. 139 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 2: I'm glad you said that, because the amazing thing about 140 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: the secret keeping that went on is, even now, all 141 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 2: these years later, we actually don't know how many people 142 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: were involved in the conspiracy. This autopsy had a purpose 143 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: beyond just cause of death each one of the conspirats 144 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: and putting them in air quotes. Each one of these 145 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: conspirators had to leave their mark. And I'm curious as 146 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: to how all these years later we're looking at this 147 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: and going, okay, well, wait a minute. You mentioned his 148 00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 2: wife having dreams. She had blood dreams which were commonly 149 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 2: associated with death dreams. She's telling him, don't go anywhere, 150 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 2: just don't go to the Senate because he was lured 151 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 2: into an area where he would not have bodyguards to 152 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 2: show the people he was a common man. He already 153 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: relieved his by guards of duty, right. 154 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: That had been documented that he had done that to 155 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: try to show that he had the common touch. I 156 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: don't need brutes along with me to demonstrate I'm this 157 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 1: powerful person. I just want to demonstrate I feel very 158 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: secure in this environment. And maybe maybe that's the ultimate 159 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: and arrogance. Who knows, but I do know that when 160 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: he was meant to rise from his throne in the Senate, 161 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: there was a group of these senators that descended upon 162 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: him and put hands on him. And as a story 163 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: is told, one senator actually grabbed hold of his outer 164 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: vestments as they're called his toga, and grabbed hold of 165 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 1: the toga that he was wearing in order to secure 166 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: him in place. Forensically, when you're looking at an environment 167 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: where you have this dynamic movement that's going on, particularly 168 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: when you're talking about edge weapons because he was stabbed, 169 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: you have to be able to corral this individual hold 170 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: them in place. And guarantee that they cannot escape. You 171 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: would have not just have had a group of attackers. 172 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: It is alleged that there would have been a peripheral 173 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: group that were acting almost like an outer defense ring 174 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 1: to keep him contained in that small space so that 175 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 1: the attackers could do their worst at that point in time. 176 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: And it all initiates with one senator grabbing hold of 177 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 1: his toga. He's defenseless at that point in time. 178 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 2: He was also overpowered. Depending on which historical documents one 179 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 2: looks at, we know that there was only one Julius 180 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: Caesar and the people he trusted, the closest ones to 181 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 2: him were part of the conspiracy. He had maybe sixty 182 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 2: to seventy senators. Each one of them had a different agenda. 183 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 2: Some were kind of playing lookout to make sure that 184 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: Julius Caesar didn't get any help, and as you mentioned, 185 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 2: using the toga to hold him down. And my question though, 186 00:10:49,440 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: is we know that he was stabbed twenty three times 187 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: when he's dead, and you mentioned the autopsy, was this 188 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: a normal process when there was a criminal ag joke. 189 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: That's the very part of this. We don't really know. 190 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: There's not a lot in the written record but his examination, 191 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: his post mortem examination was famously documented, and it wasn't 192 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: just documented. They believe this gentleman was his attending physician, Antisius. 193 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: They had physicians, and the physicians back then had a 194 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: true understanding of human anatomy. You move forward in history, though, 195 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: and some of that knowledge was lost. The ancients possessed it. 196 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: They didn't necessarily have a problem with examining bodies, I 197 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: don't think, and trying to understand form and function. As 198 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: we moved through history, suddenly it's frowned upon to dissect 199 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: human remains. But back then they would have had an understanding. 200 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 1: This idea of a pathologist who studies disease and then 201 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: you kick it up another level to where they're studying 202 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: fatal trauma. It wasn't like this, but it was a physician. 203 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 1: Antisias was his name, and he conducted the autopsy. An 204 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: interesting little turn here is that what we understand, Caesar 205 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,959 Speaker 1: lay where he fell, they approximate for about three hours day. 206 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: That means that you would have had a lot of 207 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: post mortem changes that were taking place. He would have 208 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: not been in full rider mortars, but he would have 209 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: been stiff postmarmal avidity, which we've talked about extensively on 210 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: body backs, settling a blood would have occurred. We have 211 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,599 Speaker 1: to understand that his toga, these sorts of things in 212 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,680 Speaker 1: the undergarments, they just walk around nude with a toga 213 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: thrown on it. They did have undergarments that they would wear. 214 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,479 Speaker 1: All the clothing would have probably have still remained intact. 215 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: It is told that senators actually fled. There's two hundred 216 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: known senators that were there. Of course, not all of 217 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: them are in on the assassination. Interestingly, Caesar had actually 218 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: expanded the size of the Senate in order to represent 219 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: more people. So you had slaves there, he had secretaries, 220 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: you had aids. We don't know how many of those 221 00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: were there. They fled out, and the conspirators, allegedly with 222 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: him lying there, were going to try to explain themselves, 223 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,599 Speaker 1: and suddenly the whole thing went sideways. 224 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: You mentioned that he expanded it. There were over six 225 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 2: hundred senators at the time this happened on, only two 226 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 2: to three hundred actually there. When I was looking at this, Joe, 227 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 2: they were talking about sixty to seventy involved in the 228 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: actual conspiracy, and they all had different roles, And that 229 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 2: actually makes a good point. If there was a two 230 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: hundred active senators, that you would have to have a 231 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 2: number of other senators involved in conspiracy were able to 232 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 2: hold them back until the deed was done. When somebody 233 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: has stabbed that many times, Joe, and they're laying there, 234 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 2: as you said, for hours, does the blood just keep 235 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: pouring out until there is no more blood or does 236 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 2: it stop? 237 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: At some point it will stop. You'll have the seepage 238 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: that takes place initially because it is a liquid. I've 239 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: alluded to this before, but this coosity goes to thickness. 240 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: So one of the reasons that blood remains a viscous 241 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,559 Speaker 1: liquid or thick is because it's moving through our body. 242 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 1: But once that movement begins to cease and blood begins 243 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: to settle, it begins to separate. There's kind of a 244 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: coagulation that goes on and it becomes very thick from 245 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: those initial insults to the body. Yet he would have 246 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: been pumping out blood certainly from those while his heart 247 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: was still going, and then he would have fallen to 248 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: the floor. There would have been see bits from those 249 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: immediate areas where the stab winds took place. But after 250 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 1: a period of time, it would have ceased, and so 251 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: the slaves, I think maybe three to four actually came 252 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: into this area three hours later and gathered his remains 253 00:14:22,680 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 1: and took him back to his apartments. It's there that 254 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: Ansius when and conducted his examination. It's really quite fascinating. 255 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: What was the physician's purpose in this. Did he take 256 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: it upon himself to say, I'm going to do a 257 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: post mortem examination on Caesar's remains, and I'm going to 258 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: determine what happened. And this is what's fascinating about this. 259 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: Guess what he may have been trying to achieve a 260 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: sequencing of wounds, a sequencing of injuries. And you've got 261 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: so many eyes on the scene, people that are not 262 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: part of the conspiracy. And if he can establish a sequence, 263 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: it can actually establish whose hand was in the actual death, 264 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 1: who thrust that dagger forward. Dagger implies double edged, so 265 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: this is a very destructive instrument. You're not just cutting 266 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: on one side. You've got now two sharp edges that 267 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: are going into the body. And it was not uncommon 268 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: for people to walk around with a dagger in their belt. 269 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily because you're afraid you're going to be robbed. 270 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: They had utility. You could peel fruit with them, or 271 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 1: you could chop things up, you could cut rope, you 272 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: could probably crack up in oysters. Oysters were part of 273 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: the diet back then. Dagger would have been very well 274 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: suited to that because it's got a double edge on it. 275 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: But they could be used for defense, and so you 276 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily know that someone had a dagger, but they 277 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 1: could reach inside their cloak and pull this thing out 278 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: and deploy it. This sequencing is very key here because 279 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: what Antisias determined was this, though Caesar was stabbed so 280 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: many times, there was only one of these days that 281 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: was actually fatal. If you think about your left shoulder 282 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: blade and kind of move up your shoulder blade till 283 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: you're near your spine, I think people forget that we 284 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: have ribs on our poster aia as well as our anterior, 285 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: so they kind of wrap around between his first and 286 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: second rib Posteriorly the dagger entered, and this dagger probably 287 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: was in the range of about seven to eight inches. 288 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: It makes it concealable. It's not like a standard dagger 289 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: that like a Roman soldier would have carried. It's a 290 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: little bit shorter, but it would have been buried in 291 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: his back and it passes between that intercostal space, the 292 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: meaty muscle area between the ribs. Based upon the autopsy results, 293 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 1: it would seem that his A order may have been clipped, 294 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: and the order is the big vessel that comes off 295 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: of the heart. They think that it may have been clipped, 296 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: or his lung may have been clipped, or maybe both. 297 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: It would have been an unusual injury because most of 298 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: the time when we see insults like this, where you've 299 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: got penetrative events where there's a gunshot win or stab one, 300 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: those are going to come in from the front are anteriorly. 301 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: Here this has coming from the back, which is fascinating 302 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: to me. 303 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 2: But you mentioned the blood loss. Does that mean that 304 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 2: the doctor could have ruled his death due to blood loss? 305 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you asked this. This is a fancy 306 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: word that doctors use. It's called exanguination, and it merely 307 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: means to bleed out when anticias would have opened. If 308 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: he did, in fact open, there's no guarantee that he 309 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: opened Caesar's body. The autopsy merely means that he did 310 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: a post mortem exam. If he did open the chest cavity, 311 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: what he would have been greeted by Caesar's lungs would 312 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: have been literally floating in blood. And we refer to 313 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: this as plural effusion. When you bleed out internally in 314 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: your chest. In particular, the lungs are going to be 315 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 1: a wash in blood because there's not enough holes, if 316 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: you will, defects for the blood to pour out, so 317 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: it's contained. In that environment, it would have been literally floating. 318 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 1: He would have understood enough about human physiology and certainly trauma. 319 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: I would think to understand that there's something internally going 320 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: on here. Something has been nicked, a vessel has been nicked, 321 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: and he would have bled out in this environment. Aortic 322 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: injuries are not the most survivable, but you can have 323 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: people that will survive chest injuries like this if you 324 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: can get them to the doctor so that they can 325 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: open up the chest cavity and drain blood out. That's 326 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 1: not something that would have been done here. First off, 327 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: they didn't have a wherewithal at that moment in time. 328 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: They left his body there. He apparently had died pretty quickly. 329 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: There was no signs of life. By their estimation, his 330 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: chest would have filled with blood. And when you open 331 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: people's chest up at autopsy like this. I have been 332 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: standing at the autopsy table and have been a wash 333 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: in blood where it pours out depended upon how the 334 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 1: body has been handled and this sort of thing, and 335 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: you will literally see almost like a cork in the 336 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: water when you're fishing, the lungs floating in blood like this. 337 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: And that's what actually led to his thinking about these 338 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 1: injuries that Caesar sustained. Either these guys were not very 339 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: handy with sharp instruments because you've got a guy that's 340 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: being held down, or maybe there was some other purpose 341 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 1: as to why twenty three. I've had a hard time 342 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: trying to make my way through this logically, David. 343 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 2: It's because it's not logical. You would think that as 344 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,120 Speaker 2: a conspiracy unfold, that each person has a designed part 345 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 2: of the plan. I'm gonna hold his arms back, He's 346 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 2: going to stab him. But the problem is when you 347 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: get into the guilt phase, if this turns south, who's 348 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: going to get blamed for this event? I'm thinking, first, stab, stab, 349 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: batl stab. Surely they had to have done more than 350 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: just stick him. Weren't they beating him? I mean, what 351 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 2: did he look like when this was done? 352 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: There would have been some blunt force trauma. I can 353 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: only imagine that's not really part of the record, but 354 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: have to understand that they're going to be applying direct 355 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: force in addition to the stab wounds. But here's something curious. 356 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: There is a gentleman that was a death investigator and 357 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: a criminalist, an Italian gentleman named Commander Garopfno. He went 358 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: to great links to try to reconstruct the crime scene. 359 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: This location actually still stands. You can see it. It's 360 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:36,920 Speaker 1: called a portico. I've never been there. I've always wanted 361 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: to go to Italy. That's going to be on the 362 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: list to get to This is very significant in forensics, 363 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: and we'll get to that in just a second. But 364 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: the commander, when he went back through to assist, he 365 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 1: also consulted with a forensic psychiatrists. His conclusion was based 366 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: upon the record that they have and the report that 367 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: he had kind of gone through with us, that there 368 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: was an attempt Dave to disfigure Caesar because the wound 369 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 1: that we had talked about that under the left shoulder blade. 370 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: These other wounds were apparently survivable wounds, but they were horrific. 371 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: He had wounds to his face and to his groin. 372 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: So many times we talked about sharp force injuries in 373 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: these cases on body bags, and when you have a 374 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 1: case where disfigurement is involved, that's an indication of a 375 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: lot of anger. You're trying to send a message. If 376 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: I can't have you, no one else can. All these 377 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: other things, we're going to make you look horrible, even 378 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: in death. And then you go to this great man 379 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: being the focus here. The commander and the psychiatrist believe 380 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: that this was an attempt to emasculate him, this attempt 381 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: to attack his manhood in a physical demonstration. That's key here, 382 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,719 Speaker 1: because they wanted to demonstrate that they were going to 383 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: be the dominant force, certainly in the ruling class in Rome, 384 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: and demonstrate to everybody in the Senate. Now, I always 385 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: come back to this with this assassination. It's one thing 386 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: where you've got an individual that is quote unquote assassinated, 387 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: but when you do it in front of a group 388 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: of people, there's more to it than merely a homicide. 389 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: You're demonstrating something to somebody, You're sending a message to 390 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: everybody else where. 391 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 2: Did they actually do the autopsy? We're left with them 392 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 2: laid out on the floor, blood has coagulated. It's a 393 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: couple hours later. What do they do Now They've. 394 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: Taken him back to the palace and to what would 395 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: have been referred to as his apartments, and they would 396 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 1: have done the autopsy there. A Tosias would have spent 397 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: a considerable amount of time. I can only imagine while 398 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: he's doing this, he probably has a scribe with him, 399 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: and this is interesting going forward to modern autopsies. One 400 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: of my initial jobs in the morgue was to work 401 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,479 Speaker 1: as a scribe, and they still use that term. And 402 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: physicians will look at you and they will say, will 403 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: you scribe for me? And what that means is that 404 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: the physician is covered in blood. Even today, you're covered 405 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: in blood, and they will have bloody surgical gloves on, 406 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: they'll have it over their arms, and many times there 407 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 1: will be a person seated on a chair that will 408 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: have a clipboard and a pen, and you have to 409 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: be able to speak the physicians language now, because they 410 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: all have different things that they like to indicate, from 411 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: measurements to organ descriptions, injury descriptions, and there's actually a 412 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: scribe that sits there and they will write this stuff down. 413 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 1: Some people record it by voice where they have a 414 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: mic hanging down, which is really horrible because you pick 415 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: up all the other noises in the room. I imagine 416 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: Antisius there. He would have been bare handed. He's got 417 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: blood all over him, the blood of Caesar, and he's 418 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,560 Speaker 1: got this person that's sitting there with him, the scribe, 419 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,359 Speaker 1: and he's writing all of this down as he's going 420 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: through these injuries and making note of it. And he 421 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: made such great notes by their standard. Then he actually 422 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 1: developed something that we use now, and that's three D modeling. 423 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: Remember how I was saying that they wanted to demonstrate 424 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 1: that this event actually took place. They created a wax 425 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 1: effigy of Caesar, and Antsias indicated on the wax effigy 426 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: of Caesar where his injuries were. Now that's something that 427 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,560 Speaker 1: we do with computers nowa dave. This was over two 428 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. They created this model in wax. After 429 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: he had set this thing up, they took it into 430 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: a public location known as the Forum and had it 431 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: on this wheel and turned it so that everybody in 432 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: the crowd could see it. They said that when the 433 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: people that witnessed this display this is a godlike figure 434 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: to these people. When they witnessed and he suddenly becomes mortal. Right, 435 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: they witnessed what had happened to their beloved Caesar. There 436 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,119 Speaker 1: were people weeping, screaming. It infuriated the crowd. It was 437 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: at that moment time that something happened, because it's from 438 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: that moment tom when this physician over two thousand years 439 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: ago created this wax model, stood before a crowd in 440 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: the forum and began to describe Caesar's injuries and how 441 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: he died. This is where we get the word forensic from. 442 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,360 Speaker 1: It's rooted in the same word as forum, and that's 443 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 1: what we do in forensics day. We debate science, we 444 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: debate in front of a court. Still to this day, 445 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 1: we talk about the science of death. 446 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 2: This is amazing. 447 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is that we've got these kinds of threads 448 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 1: through time that lead all the way back to the 449 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: death of Caesar. 450 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 2: I would need a wax model because you describe things 451 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: or I read them, and I'm not a doctor. I'm 452 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: just a guy. I don't know all the terminology, and 453 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 2: I certainly don't know what these things mean. But you 454 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 2: show me a wax body that looks like mine, and 455 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 2: you're showing me where these stab wounds were and what 456 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 2: other damage was done. Now I have a good understanding 457 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 2: of what took place and what they have done, those 458 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: who did this, the conspirators. That blows me away that 459 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 2: even to this day I could see this exact same 460 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: thing happening right now with forensic stuff that is named 461 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 2: after this, which blows me away. 462 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: It is quite amazing. And it's not like the ancients 463 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: were ignorant people, And it's arrogance on our party if 464 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: we dismiss them and their ability to understand and comprehend. 465 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: Just because we're modern in our own context doesn't mean 466 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: that we're brighter than they were. They still felt the 467 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: same things that we do. They could still understand intellectually 468 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: form and function, and this model itself and the presentation 469 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,600 Speaker 1: of it in this court like setting really drove the 470 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: crowd and the momentum of everything that's happening in Rome 471 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 1: at that time to go after these people. There was 472 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 1: an entire war that was fought in the face of this. 473 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: The famous Mark Antony rose to power at this point 474 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: in time, and it all kind of turned on this 475 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: one event. And we have anticias to think for this 476 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: to be able to take an event that was so 477 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: tragic in Roman history, and they're great leader that had 478 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: fallen and almost like we do with the dead today, 479 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 1: conjure them, bring them back to life. And again it 480 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 1: holds true today just like it did all those years ago. 481 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: Where we begin and understand that we speak for these 482 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: that can no longer speak for themselves. M H. I'm 483 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags. M