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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: Breaking news tonight just revealed the horrific details surrounding the

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Speaker 2: disappearance of two Kansas moms.

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Speaker 1: Tonight, the unthinkable were the two.

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Speaker 2: Moms bodies stuffed in an ice chest and buried fifteen

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Speaker 2: feet below the surface of a remote cow pasture? Were

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Speaker 2: they buried alive along with bloody clothes, a taser and

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Speaker 2: duct tape? Good evening, Imancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: New details emerged on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs

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Speaker 3: reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in

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Speaker 3: a buried freezer.

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Speaker 4: Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles

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Speaker 4: from their destination, surrounded by pools of blood.

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Speaker 2: What really happened to these two Kansas moms? Yes, we

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Speaker 2: can figure out they were carjacked and route to a

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Speaker 2: kid's birthday party, But how did they end up dead

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Speaker 2: or alive stuffed into an ice chest ten to fifteen

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Speaker 2: feet below the surface in a remote cow pasture. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm learning a lot from these just discovered court documents

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Speaker 2: and guess what the defense wanted them sealed, and.

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Speaker 1: They stated on the record.

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Speaker 2: Because they don't want the Nancy Grace Show to find

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Speaker 2: out about them. Well guess what we did find out

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Speaker 2: about them. That's what happens when your client is accused

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Speaker 2: of murdering two moms and burying them and an ice

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Speaker 2: chest and a cow pasture.

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Speaker 1: What more do we know? Listen?

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Speaker 5: Documents reveal what investigators did to find the bodies of

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Speaker 5: Iroonica Butler and Jillian Kelly after they go missing en

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Speaker 5: route to a child's birthday party. Questioning relatives and friends,

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Speaker 5: investigators isolate a burial site about eight miles from where

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Speaker 5: Veronica Butler's car is found abandoned. After two long days

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Speaker 5: of digging, Veronica and Jillian are found dead, buried fifteen

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Speaker 5: feet underground inside a freezer chest. Cause of death not revealed.

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Speaker 5: Oklahoma law enforcement says the women's murders were absolutely brutal.

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Speaker 2: Joining me an all star panel, but first I want

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Speaker 2: to go to Chris McDonough joining US, Director of the

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Speaker 2: Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective with over three hundred

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Speaker 2: homicides under his belt, and now host of a YouTube channel,

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Speaker 2: The Interview Room. You can find him at Colcasefoundation dot org.

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Speaker 2: Chris McDonald. I don't know if you've ever been in

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Speaker 2: the horrible position of having to find bodies with ground

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Speaker 2: penetrating radar. It's it kind of looks like those metal

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Speaker 2: detectors you see people with out on the beach. But

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Speaker 2: what it shows it kind of looks like a sonogram

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Speaker 2: when you look at it. And I've handled many cases

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Speaker 2: that had the groundbreaking radar, and it looks like waves.

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Speaker 2: It's all black and gray. But you have to know

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Speaker 2: what you're looking for. Like on an X ray or

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Speaker 2: an ultrasound, you can actually see disturbed earth. That's what

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Speaker 2: you're looking for. Anything disturbed, anything that looks like it's

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Speaker 2: been moved.

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious if you've ever had to use those.

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Speaker 2: But in this case, let me just say, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not one to judge unless it's a felony.

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Speaker 1: I don't care what anybody does.

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Speaker 2: But if it's got crime scene tape around it, I'm

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Speaker 2: all over it. These people are idiots. They left a

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Speaker 2: trail a mile wide. These two moms are found in

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Speaker 2: an ice chest ten to fifteen feet below the surface

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Speaker 2: of a cow pasture. But Chris on the top, all

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Speaker 2: that's a really good aerial thank you. There's fresh dirt, cement,

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Speaker 2: chucks and hey and that one area, but it still

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Speaker 2: took two days of digging.

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Speaker 1: What do you think you.

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Speaker 6: Know, there's that instrument that you're talking about, Nancyman, it

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Speaker 6: does It shows an anomaly within the depth of the

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Speaker 6: surface of the earth there and in this situation where

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Speaker 6: they have, you know, blocks of concrete like you're talking about.

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Speaker 6: But the biggest clue in this whole thing, obviously when

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Speaker 6: you're looking at that device, is the fact that you're

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Speaker 6: going to have a hard metal iea some type of

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Speaker 6: freezer that they discovered there. And I think the really

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Speaker 6: crazy part here is it's fifteen feet deep. That is

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Speaker 6: a lot of work to get that item below the earth.

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Speaker 2: Hey, you notice making me wonder Joining me in dist

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Speaker 2: Chris mcdunna, Lauren Conlin, doctor Kendall Crowns, and doctor Angela

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Speaker 2: Arnold Alan Bennet with US former assistant district attorney now

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Speaker 2: partner at Gunter Bennett and Anthus Alan. It makes me

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Speaker 2: wonder listening to Chris McDonough talking, it just occurred.

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Speaker 1: To me, did they have this very deep hole ten to.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen feet deep? Did they have it dug before the murders.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of pre planning because it took investigators

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Speaker 2: two days to dig down and get to that ice chest.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to get to the.

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Speaker 2: Visual of folding over and stuffing two ladies into an

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Speaker 2: ice chest in a minute. But that leads me to premeditation.

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Speaker 7: Alan Bennett, Oh absolutely, I think just from what little

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Speaker 7: I've seen provide the materials from your show, I think,

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Speaker 7: let's say we have an easy time establishing the pattern

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Speaker 7: in which these five people engagement is kind of I

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Speaker 7: think there's a this amount of evidence pointing toward their

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Speaker 7: conviction at this point.

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Speaker 2: Joining us again an all star panel makes sense of

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Speaker 2: what we're learning right now. Straight out to Lauren Conlin,

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Speaker 2: joining us with the latest investigative journalist, host of The

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Speaker 2: Outlier podcast. You can find her at Laurencolin dot com.

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Speaker 2: Lauren tell me the latest. These documents are dynamite. They

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Speaker 2: are gonna torpedo the defense.

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Speaker 8: Start from the beginning, we have two cell phones found

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Speaker 8: in Cole and Cora Twombley's truck, a white iPhone and

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Speaker 8: a black iPhone. Then we have the fact that someone

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Speaker 8: else helped clean the truck.

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Speaker 1: Back it up.

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Speaker 2: I feel like making that sound when you hear a

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Speaker 2: large truck reversing going boom boom. Let's start sorry with

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Speaker 2: the ice chest.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the ice chest with two dead bodies in it.

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Speaker 2: They used to be young moms, last scene all the

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Speaker 2: way to a kid birthday party.

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Speaker 1: Why are they in an ice chest?

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about the excavation process. I know, Lauren,

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Speaker 2: you're an investigative reporter and you.

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Speaker 1: Go with the banner, and I get it. I hear you.

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Speaker 2: But when I hear something like two ladies fifteen feet

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Speaker 2: below the surface of a cow pasture in an ice chest,

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Speaker 2: remind me to circle back to doctor Kendall Crowns. Gosh,

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Speaker 2: you know I'm going off in all kinds of directions

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Speaker 2: because there's so much evidence right now with these two

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Speaker 2: Kansas moms. I want to ask doctor Kendall Crowns about,

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Speaker 2: now that I know they're in an ice chest, how

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Speaker 2: am I going to tell if they were buried dead

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Speaker 2: or alive. But back to the excavation and what you're

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Speaker 2: learning in these documents. There's a lot of them, and

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Speaker 2: we've all come through them with the fine tooth. Lauren,

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Speaker 2: about the ice chest and the discovery of Veronica Jillian's bodies.

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Speaker 8: Yes, so it took two days to dig through this

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Speaker 8: proper and essentially we talked about a dam previously and

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Speaker 8: the bodies were found about one hundred and fifty to

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Speaker 8: two hundred yards away from this dam.

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Speaker 9: So they dug fifteen feet.

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Speaker 8: They found this incredibly large ice chest freezer. They call

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Speaker 8: it a trunk if you will, and unfortunately they found

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Speaker 8: Veronica and Jillian, as well as other bloody items that

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Speaker 8: did not belong to the women.

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Speaker 1: Guys, what more do we know about what happened? Now?

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Speaker 2: Another issue? Back to Alan Bennett very quickly. Alan, this

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Speaker 2: was out in the middle of a cow pasture, so

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Speaker 2: it's not as if police really needed a warrant because

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Speaker 2: this disturbed earth is in plane Zeo. But to dig

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Speaker 2: under the dirt, to be on the safe side, I

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Speaker 2: would think they had to have a warrant.

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Speaker 10: Yes, no, yeah, they would need to get a warrant

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Speaker 10: or the permission of the landowner to go onto that

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Speaker 10: property and to do once they have consent. It's free range.

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Speaker 11: But ideally, just as we saved.

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Speaker 10: They would probably want to get consent and then probably

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Speaker 10: get a search warrant just to make absolutely sure.

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Speaker 1: Guys, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 5: Investigators execute a search warrant at an Oklahoma cowpasture. Gillian

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Speaker 5: and Veronica's bodies are placed inside a freezer with personal

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Speaker 5: items that do not belong to Butler or Kelly. Investigators

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Speaker 5: find bloody clothes, the handle of his saw, as well

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Speaker 5: as a taser. Some appear to have blood on them,

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Speaker 5: like a pair of Wrangler blue jeans with a black belt,

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Speaker 5: a brown sweatshirt, a black hooded sweatshirt, and a second

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Speaker 5: pair of Wrangler blue jeans. None of the items belong

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Speaker 5: to Veronica, Butler or Jilly and Kelly.

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Speaker 2: Lauren Collin joining US investigative journalist and host of The Outlier. Lauren,

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about all these items that were found.

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Speaker 2: Which items were found stuffed into the ice chest?

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Speaker 8: So exactly what was just stated? The jeans, the I

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Speaker 8: have a whole list. There was a ratchet strap I'm reading,

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Speaker 8: a car, heart jacket with possible blood, black cabar knife,

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Speaker 8: a great ball cap with possible blood, a pair of

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Speaker 8: cloth gloves with blood, sketcher shoes, electrical chords with tape.

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Speaker 8: It's it's it's disgusting, it's it's it's absolutely horrifying.

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Speaker 9: It's something out of a horror movie.

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Speaker 2: Nancy Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Chris McDonough joining us,

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Speaker 2: a former homicide detective now host of the Interview Room.

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Speaker 1: Just think about it. Because I once had a case.

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Speaker 2: My victim was a Jane Doe, but her killer was

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Speaker 2: a serial killer, and I believed I could get him

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Speaker 2: on one case.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't muddy.

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Speaker 2: The water by trying to bring in any similar transactions

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Speaker 2: because if they didn't go over with the jury, it

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Speaker 2: would make them doubt.

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Speaker 1: My case in chief.

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Speaker 2: So on one murder of a Jane Doe, I tried

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Speaker 2: this guy and there was one piece of evidence. I

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Speaker 2: thought about it and thought about it, and thought about

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Speaker 2: what does this piece of evidence prove its It's got

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Speaker 2: to be important.

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Speaker 1: It was one earring, Chris.

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Speaker 2: One earring found in a different location near the body,

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Speaker 2: but in a different location.

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Speaker 1: What did it prove? Then?

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Speaker 2: I found out and doctor Kendall grounds are like this,

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Speaker 2: that her ear had been ripped at the earring spot.

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Speaker 2: And I learned a lot anyway I could hypothesize from there.

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Speaker 2: Did you hear what Lauren Collin just said? She said,

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Speaker 2: And I'm looking here at the documents, bloody cloth, gloves, shoes,

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Speaker 2: so many things. But now from these, what can we

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Speaker 2: deduce a USB drive with pictures of a grave site,

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Speaker 2: a saw handle?

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Speaker 1: What can I do with this?

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Speaker 6: Well, Nancy, if I presented that to you in a

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Speaker 6: court and you have done this many many times before,

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Speaker 6: that is a tremendous amount of information and evidence that

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Speaker 6: shows a couple of things malice and forethought right an

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Speaker 6: evil intent. You have a taser that's a control mechanism.

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Speaker 6: You have clothing that's in the graveside of itself that

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Speaker 6: tells us okay, are the suspects or suspect you know,

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Speaker 6: eliminating their own clothing by throwing it in with the victims.

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Speaker 6: You have a what sounds like a cord of some sort,

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Speaker 6: you know, is that a strangling mechanism? You have a

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Speaker 6: k barn knife. Is that a coup to G mechanism?

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Speaker 6: Or and then you have a piece of a saw.

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Speaker 6: Are they trying to dismember the bodies? I mean, think

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Speaker 6: about these two innocent women stuffed in that freezer and

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Speaker 6: just think about the blood, the amount of blood that's

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Speaker 6: trapped withinside of that freezer. When the authorities discover those

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Speaker 6: two poor victims.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Hey, What about this ratchet straps that were found?

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Speaker 1: What are ratchet straps?

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Speaker 2: They are called tie down according to my notes that

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Speaker 2: I took tie down straps. I think of bungee cords

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Speaker 2: like I would hook our bikes to the back of

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Speaker 2: the mini van. Ratchet straps, but they're more industrial tie

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Speaker 2: down straps used to transport cargo in a vehicle. Have

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Speaker 2: you ever been behind a truck that's got a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of stuff in the bed and they've got a

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Speaker 2: ratchet strap holding it in. I try to get away

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Speaker 2: as quickly as possible because I'm sure they're going to

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Speaker 2: fall off onto my windshield. Why are ratchet straps in

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Speaker 2: the ice chests with the two dead bodies, typically used

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Speaker 2: to secure things to a roof rack or a truck

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Speaker 2: bed or elsewhere. Why did they need ratchet straps? And

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Speaker 2: are they bloody?

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Speaker 11: You know? And that's a great question.

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Speaker 6: And so what that indicates Possibly there could be a

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Speaker 6: third crime scene of some sort ie the abduction site.

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Speaker 6: They put this freezer in the back of some type

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Speaker 6: of transport vehicle, strap it down with that type of strap,

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Speaker 6: and then transport that to the third site where they

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Speaker 6: dump the body into a shelf One other thing I'd

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Speaker 6: be real curious about is what type of machinery they found,

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Speaker 6: ie a back ho or something to that effect. To

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Speaker 6: get fifteen feet down, you know it's going to take

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Speaker 6: some type of machinery like that.

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Speaker 2: Well, so bizarre, well among so many things that are

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Speaker 2: bizarre in this case. When you look at a couple

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Speaker 2: of the defendants, they actually look normal. Passed them in

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Speaker 2: the grocery store aisle, you wouldn't think anything at all.

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Speaker 2: Maybe him, he looks fairly normal. Okay, forget about the

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Speaker 2: guy with the led Zeppelin beard. No, no, I would

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Speaker 2: run the other way. The grandma, oh, I think meth.

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Speaker 2: But the last two, if I pass them in the

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Speaker 2: grocery store aisle, say the frozen section, I wouldn't think

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Speaker 2: anything about it. And what is so really scary about

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Speaker 2: it is that they were amongst everyone in the community

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Speaker 2: and no one suspected a thing. We are discussing what

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Speaker 2: we have just learned, and now I know why the

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Speaker 2: defense lawyer wanted to keep this secret. She wanted everything

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Speaker 2: under seal, so quote the Nancy gres Show wouldn't.

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Speaker 1: Get a hold of it.

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Speaker 2: Guess what, little girl, I got a hold of it.

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Speaker 2: I'm want to go straight out to doctor Kendall Crown's

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Speaker 2: and talk about that.

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Speaker 1: The fact that we now.

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Speaker 2: Know the two moms just minding their own business on

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Speaker 2: the way to a kid's birthday party. This is all

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Speaker 2: about a custody battle by the grandma. Okay, she wanted

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Speaker 2: the children. She didn't want the.

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Speaker 1: Daughter in law to have them.

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Speaker 2: She didn't even want her own bio son, the biological

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Speaker 2: father of the children, to have them. She wanted them

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Speaker 2: and would do anything to get them, even discussed knocking

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Speaker 2: off the judge and finding out the judges route. Hey, list,

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Speaker 2: let's see the pretty picture of grandma. Okay, yeah, who

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Speaker 2: look at that. It's in her car, but it looks

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Speaker 2: like a glamour shot. At what is she doing orchestrating

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Speaker 2: a double murder? She knew that there would be a

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Speaker 2: friend in the car that said doctor Kendall Crowns. Guys,

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Speaker 2: let me introduce him. He is the chief medical Examiner.

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Speaker 2: That's not easy to do. First undergrad then med school,

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Speaker 2: then you entern, you resident, and then somehow work your

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Speaker 2: way up to becoming the chief medical Examiner Interrent County.

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Speaker 2: That's fort Worth. Never a lack of business lecturer. The

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Speaker 2: Brenett School of Medicine at TCU. Just let that sink him.

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Speaker 2: He's told me he's done. Somewhere in the vicinity of

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Speaker 2: ten thousand autopsies, doctor Kendall Crowns before we got this

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Speaker 2: bombshell evidence. In all of these documents, the defense tried

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Speaker 2: to keep secret. We understood that the two moms are

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Speaker 2: just buried. Why did I say just buried? Buried ten

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Speaker 2: to fifteen feet underground and a cow pasture covered with

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Speaker 2: about I would say a ton of soil cement chunks,

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Speaker 2: and then covered in hay. Now we know they were

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Speaker 2: stuffed into a freezer. I am telling you hell, open

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Speaker 2: your gates because these four are coming. How can I

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Speaker 2: tell now that we're not looking for dirt or particles

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Speaker 2: that you told me about. They could be in their nose,

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Speaker 2: in the back of their throat, going down.

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Speaker 1: To the lungs.

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Speaker 2: How am I going to tell now whether they were

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Speaker 2: dead or alive when they were forced crammed into an

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Speaker 2: ice bucket ice chest.

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Speaker 12: It would actually be difficult to tell one way or

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Speaker 12: another because the ice chest would prevent any dirt from

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Speaker 12: getting into their system. So were they alive when they

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Speaker 12: put into the ice chest? It would be anybody's guests

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Speaker 12: because depending on the type of injuries they had.

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Speaker 2: What about Okay, let me try to verbalize this. I

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Speaker 2: can't speak your league, your medical jargon. But if someone

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Speaker 2: has a blow to the head, you can see that

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Speaker 2: if even if you have to pull their scalp back

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Speaker 2: to find it. If someone is manual or ligature strangled,

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Speaker 2: you can see evidence of that. If they're shot, if

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Speaker 2: they're stabbed, if they're drowned, you'll find evidence of that.

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Speaker 2: But if they were alive, maybe knocked out to subdue them,

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Speaker 2: but alive when they were put in that ice chest,

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Speaker 2: wouldn't they have died of asphyxiation suffocation?

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Speaker 1: And couldn't we see at least that because if these.

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Speaker 2: Two died, go with me, I know you'll make sense

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Speaker 2: that of this thread, doctor Crown's. If they died by

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Speaker 2: suffocation asphyxiation, that will tell me they were alive when

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Speaker 2: they were put in that ice chest. Why, because there's

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Speaker 2: no process of elimination, there's no other mode of murder

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Speaker 2: cause of death, So how else would they have been suffocated?

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Speaker 2: If you don't find bruising on the face or around

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Speaker 2: the mouth where something was held over their face, wouldn't

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Speaker 2: it be a natural, a logical conclusion of what we

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Speaker 2: know well?

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Speaker 12: Correct, So if they have no other physical evidence of injury,

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Speaker 12: then you can call it an.

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Speaker 11: Asphyxiation or suffocation.

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Speaker 12: The problem is is when people are put into freezers

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Speaker 12: and suffocate, which we do see occasionally with kids getting

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Speaker 12: in the freezers. I've even seen suicides where people get

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Speaker 12: inside a freezer and asphixiate is there is actually no

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Speaker 12: findings you can doctor Kendlecrowns.

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Speaker 2: I have never heard of suicide by freezer until right now.

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Speaker 2: So you have actually handle cases where people get into

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Speaker 2: a freezer and shut it to kill themselves.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so what were the findings on those bodies?

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Speaker 12: There's no findings because the assixiation is basically you suffocate

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Speaker 12: and there's no actually injuries that you can find at autopsy. Now,

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Speaker 12: if someone's forced into a freezer and they want to

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Speaker 12: get out, you might see like hemorrhage under their fingernails

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Speaker 12: where they're trying to claw their way out or punching

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Speaker 12: their way out, But there's not going to be anything

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Speaker 12: necessarily that you'll see from the asphyxiation that you can

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Speaker 12: find see.

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Speaker 2: I would argue that Okay, you just said there are

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Speaker 2: no signs that they asphyxiated, that they were alive when

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Speaker 2: they got in the freezer. But I would argue that

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Speaker 2: no signs that that is a sign, because if you

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Speaker 2: would expect these two to be beaten, dead or stabbed, shot, strangled,

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Speaker 2: we don't see any of that. If we don't see

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Speaker 2: any of that other than a blow to the head

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Speaker 2: to subdue them.

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Speaker 1: Then what would be the cause of death? Isn't it true?

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Speaker 1: If you hold something over someone's.

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Speaker 2: Face and they resist, you're going to see some type

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Speaker 2: of evidence around the mouth or the nose where they

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Speaker 2: tried to fight back, or they bit their teeth, bit

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Speaker 2: their tongue, or the inside of their mouth, some form

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Speaker 2: of resistance.

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Speaker 12: Yes, with a smothering where the hands placed over the mouth,

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Speaker 12: you'll get injuries on the enermy coast of the lips

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Speaker 12: from the teeth being pressed against it. You'll also see

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Speaker 12: defensive injuries where they're trying to get the arm off

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Speaker 12: of them, things of that nature. But in someone placed

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Speaker 12: in a if they're knocked out, placed them too a

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Speaker 12: refrigerator and then asphyxiated, you are correct. If there's no

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Speaker 12: injury that would explain why they were dead. It's a

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Speaker 12: diagnosis of exclusion, so all the other factors that could

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Speaker 12: have killed them are ruled out. That means that they

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Speaker 12: were asphyxiated or suffocated in the freezer.

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Speaker 2: And what doctor Kendall Crowns would they have endured if

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Speaker 2: they weren't completely subdued unconscious, what would they have endured

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Speaker 2: in an ice chest?

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Speaker 11: Well, not just the ice test, but buried alive.

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Speaker 12: So you know, you're in this freezer under a ton

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Speaker 12: of dirt, it's dark in there with another individual, the

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Speaker 12: oxygen's running low. You're panic, You're in the dark, screaming,

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Speaker 12: trying to push your way out. You can't get out,

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Speaker 12: and you're basically slowly going into unconsciousness, knowing that there

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Speaker 12: is no way out and that you're going.

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Speaker 2: To die straight out to Lauren Colin, investigative journalist, host

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Speaker 2: of The Outlier podcast Lauren Kitty litter used for liquid

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Speaker 2: absorption of trace evidence, biological DNA evidence, digital photos. I'm

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Speaker 2: very curious what those digital photos are, spatial scans, What

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Speaker 2: do they mean by that? And all other evidence of

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Speaker 2: the crime of murder?

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Speaker 8: Explain Yes, So let's not forget the pools of blood

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Speaker 8: found around the vehicle, which the OSBI stated in these documents,

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Speaker 8: it was either kitty litter or dry oil that was

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Speaker 8: spread all around the truck.

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Speaker 9: So that was really really odd.

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Speaker 8: Really, I mean, just going back to what you stated,

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Speaker 8: it was so so premeditated.

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Speaker 9: And then as far as the spatial scanning.

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Speaker 8: Goes, I'm just thinking to myself that maybe they're just

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Speaker 8: taking certain measurements with the evidence and everything inside that truck,

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Speaker 8: because it sounds to me that there was so much

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Speaker 8: in that truck. And let's also not forget that Cole

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Speaker 8: and Cora Twombley were the ones that stopped Veronica and

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Speaker 8: Jillian in their tracks on that highway, and god knows

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Speaker 8: did what to them.

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Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, I'm going to go to

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Speaker 2: a renowned psychiatrist joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction,

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Speaker 2: Doctor Angela Arnold, Doctor Angie, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 2: Also Professor Psychiatry, has taught at Emmy University and former

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Speaker 2: medical director of the Psychiatric Obgyan Clinic at Grady Memorial.

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Speaker 2: I can't tell you how many witnesses and defendants and

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Speaker 2: victims I found at Grady that said, doctor Angie, kitty

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Speaker 2: litter those two words have never meant to me what

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Speaker 2: they mean right now. Vast quantities of blood found around

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Speaker 2: the spot where these two ladies were a card act.

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Speaker 2: Can I just see the two ladies, please.

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Speaker 1: Veronica and Jillian.

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Speaker 2: They're on their way to a kid's birthday party, as

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Speaker 2: you know, doctor Angie, you've studied this case, and suddenly

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Speaker 2: their card act.

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Speaker 1: They're brutally attacked.

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Speaker 2: We believe by a hammer because part of the hammer

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Speaker 2: was found near the copious blood bloodpool. And the killers

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Speaker 2: actually think ahead of time to bring kitty litter of

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Speaker 2: some sort to put on the blood to absorb the liquid.

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Speaker 2: And when I look at these two moms in the

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Speaker 2: prime of their lives. Between them, I think there were

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Speaker 2: six children, and I look at these four defendants, My

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Speaker 2: head is about to blow off, Doctor Angie.

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Speaker 1: Kitty litter, kitty litter, Ntzy.

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Speaker 13: It's these two beautiful women that were simply going to

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Speaker 13: a birthday party to see her children literally drove into

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Speaker 13: a trap. And what I have to wonder is apparently

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Speaker 13: they didn't have any fear of this happening to them.

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Speaker 13: I mean, they were going to a birthday party. I'm

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Speaker 13: sure the mother wanted to see these kids who she

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Speaker 13: hasn't been able to see, and I'm not sure how long.

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Speaker 13: I'm sure she was aware that there was a huge

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Speaker 13: custody battle going on, but they drove to this birthday

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Speaker 13: party without any fear, and they literally drove into a

438
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 13: trap and were brutally murdered and then buried. And this

439
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,959
Speaker 13: entire thing sounds like it was all planned out. And

440
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 13: I can't even imagine the evil, the evil that those

441
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 13: that group of people are made of, that they consist of,

442
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 13: that they could have done this to a mother of

443
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 13: two beautiful little children that they want custody of.

444
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 2: Just thinking about the malice of forethought to Alan Bennett,

445
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: former prosecutor and now law partner in Gunter Bennett and

446
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 2: Anthus the malice of forethought it took to imagine Veronica

447
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: and Jillian while you're at the store buying kitty letter

448
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 2: to so up their blood. Now, as a defense lawyer,

449
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 2: what could possibly be the comeback.

450
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 10: To that we're representing any one of these individuals, Nancy,

451
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,960
Speaker 10: I would be racing all the other defense attorneys to

452
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 10: the DA's office to express to that lead prosecutor my

453
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 10: client is the least culpable of all of these five.

454
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 10: My client is already willing and able to sit down

455
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 10: and cooperate to the fullest of their ability to assist

456
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 10: in the prosecution of these other four people. How can

457
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 10: we get this case resolved? I would be trying to

458
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 10: negotiate the best possibility.

459
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 11: You should not cook for my client.

460
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 10: And if I were the prosecutor, much like I'm sure

461
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 10: you would have done, Nancy, were you prossing this case,

462
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 10: I would say, no, there are no deals, there's no offers,

463
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 10: there's no negotiation. Your client wants to flee unnegotiated to

464
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 10: the court, so be it. We're not making any deals

465
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 10: on this case. Tell your client, thanks, but no thanks.

466
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: Who is Paul Griss? Trying to figure out exactly how Grice?

467
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: He looks like a fairly normal guy, got roped into

468
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,959
Speaker 2: this whole thing, joining me, Lauren Colin, Lauren, who's Paul Grice?

469
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 8: So, Paul Grice is very young. He's thirty one years old.

470
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 9: He is a father, he is.

471
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 8: A husband, and I think a lot of us were

472
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 8: very confused at first when the witness named him, and

473
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 8: it took so long for him to be arrested.

474
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 9: So Nancy, what was also revealed in the most.

475
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 8: Recent search warrants was how Paul was eventually arrested. So

476
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 8: Paul Grice was actually at Tad Collum's house when police

477
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 8: came to arrest Tad, and they found that Paul had

478
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 8: a bandaged right pinky finger and he told them that

479
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 8: he heard it working.

480
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 9: On his pickup.

481
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 1: Huh huh. The part about the bandages is damning.

482
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 14: Listen according to court documents, the day Tiffany Adams boyfriend

483
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 14: Tad Cullum is arrested at his home for the murders

484
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 14: of Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly, Paul Grise present and

485
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 14: FBI agents notice a bandage on his right pinky finger.

486
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 14: Gris tells the agents he cut it while working on

487
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 14: his truck. Days later, Caleb Roberts tells police he saw

488
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 14: Grice March thirty and thirty one with a bandage on

489
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 14: his right hand. Gris tells Roberts he cut his hand

490
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 14: while cutting fencing.

491
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: Well, that doesn't make sense unless he's wrapping the fencing

492
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: around his truck. That's two stories so far, but it's

493
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: not over yet.

494
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: Listen.

495
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 5: On April seventeenth, days after the bodies of Veronica Butler

496
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 5: and Jillian Kelly are dug out of a fifteen foot

497
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 5: deep hole. Paul Grice is at Chad Pate's house, asking

498
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 5: questions about DNA, such as how long would it take

499
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 5: the State labor process DNA evidence, how long DNA would

500
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 5: last in dirt, how long DNA would last on clothing

501
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 5: in the dirt in a fifteen foot deep hole. Griis

502
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 5: tells Pate he's concerned about his DNA being in the

503
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 5: hole that Butler and Kelly were found in because he

504
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,479
Speaker 5: had been in the Twombleys residence. Grice also asks if

505
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 5: he knows how to get a guy in his family

506
00:30:58,960 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 5: in New Mexico.

507
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 2: I am so happy right now, Hey Gryce, you should

508
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: have just called in to the show and we could

509
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: have answered all those questions for you.

510
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: And then when have it on tape. Doctor Kendall krows.

511
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: Let's answer a few of those questions.

512
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: How long does DNA last on clothing or in the dirt.

513
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 12: The DNA is going to be available in the dirt

514
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 12: for a long time. You look at individuals buried and

515
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 12: then dug back up, They're able to get DNA from

516
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 12: them for years. So unless the actual physical item that

517
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 12: the DNA is on completely goes away. I think they'd

518
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 12: still be able to find DNA on it for quite

519
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 12: a while.

520
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what jury's think, don't you.

521
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: Have you ever seen Jimmy what's the name of the

522
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: dinosaur movies?

523
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: When everybody's yeah, Jurassic Park, we've seen them all.

524
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 2: The jurys expect that DNA lasts for millions and millions

525
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: of years, and that you can get a piece of

526
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: DNA and basically regenerate the entire person.

527
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 1: Actually it's not that far off, because.

528
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: We now know that DNA of various sorts are found,

529
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: for instance, in Egyptian tombs, and a lot of investigatory

530
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: deductions are made from that DNA, So basically forever, doctor

531
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: kendlegrowns pretty much.

532
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 12: My example is the gentleman they found in the iceberg.

533
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 12: I think they call him, I see the iceman. They

534
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 12: were not only able to figure out his DNA, but

535
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 12: also figure out his last meal, and they determined how

536
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 12: he was killed. So it's there for a very long time.

537
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 12: And then if you're talking about DNA that's in a freezer,

538
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 12: which is a sealed environment that's not even going to

539
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 12: be subjected to the dirt and environmental conditions.

540
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 11: It could be there as forever.

541
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,640
Speaker 1: So you're answering, is DNA doctor Kennell Crowns.

542
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 2: I don't guess you know how to get a quote

543
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: guy and his family into Mexico, do you, because that's

544
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: Gryce's next question.

545
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 11: Well, for the right price, I could figure it out.

546
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: New details emerge on brutally murdered Kansas moms. Court docs

547
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: reveal Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's bodies were stuffed in

548
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: a buried freezer.

549
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 4: Veronica Butler and Jillian Kelly's vehicle found abandoned just miles

550
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 4: from their destination, surrounded by pools of blood.

551
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: Right now, I'm telling you I would hone in on Gryce, Okay,

552
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 2: the one who had all the stories about the injuries

553
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: to his hands, the one that was frantically asking friends,

554
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 2: how do I get my family into Mexico? How long

555
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 2: does DNA lasted the dirt? He's scared and he'll talk.

556
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: I don't know if i'd cut him a deal, though,

557
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 2: but I would definitely try to interview him. What more

558
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: do we know about this guy that could be the

559
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 2: weak Lee and the chain?

560
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: Paul Grise listen.

561
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 15: Thirty one year old Paul Grise mentioned as an accomplice,

562
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 15: but investigators interviewed him and let him go. According to

563
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 15: court documents, Grice was part of God's Misfits along with

564
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 15: Tiffany Adams and the other suspects. Cole and Cora. Twombly

565
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 15: allegedly blocked the road, diverting Butler and Kelly to where Adams,

566
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 15: Tad Cullum, and Grice were waiting. Gris claims he is

567
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 15: not a citizen of the USA. He is not a resident,

568
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 15: employee or citizen of the United States Government. He says

569
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 15: that I hereby asciverate, repudiate, and revoke my citizenship if

570
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 15: any ever existed with the legal fiction known as the

571
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 15: United States Government, USA Incorporated and any and all subsidiary corporations, State, County, City.

572
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: Not a citizen of the US government.

573
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:56,720
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I totally get him on the stand. Doctor

574
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 2: Angela Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist at angela Arnold dot com.

575
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: What about this guy? He's what did he say?

576
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: He's repudiating and asseverating and revoking his citizenship if any

577
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: ever existed?

578
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 1: Phil Day on cross right.

579
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 13: He's like the linkpin. Is he the person who possibly

580
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 13: set up this whold God's misfits organization.

581
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 1: I guess not. I just lost all faith in you. Woman.

582
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: You think this guy, he's writing his manifestos and asking

583
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: people how long does DNA last in dirt? You think

584
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 2: he is the mastermind the brilliant criminal.

585
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: Seriously, did you just say that?

586
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 11: Well?

587
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,800
Speaker 13: I mean, Nancy, I wonder if he's the mastermind behind

588
00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 13: God's miss the Stars.

589
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: You said it again?

590
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 2: Okay, Angela, if I may call you that. No, he's

591
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: not a mastermind of anything. Any ding dong that writes

592
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: a manifesto like this and goes around asking how does

593
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,759
Speaker 2: DNA lasting dirt? Like That's not a giveaway. I did

594
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: something really bad. My DNA may end up in an

595
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 2: ice chest with two dead bodies. Okay, Alan Bennett, I

596
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: guess all of her degrees did not prepare her for

597
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 2: this moment. How much would you like to get this

598
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,839
Speaker 2: guy on cross examination? He's totally the weak link. Go

599
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 2: for it.

600
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 10: No, And I think that's what the doctor's point may be.

601
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 10: That's the scariest part of all of this is that.

602
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 11: That guy is the mastermind.

603
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 10: That's the guy who's deposited all the funds into this

604
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:35,760
Speaker 10: brain trust.

605
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: Okay, you know what I'm clearly screaming out the window

606
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: on Park Avenue. Chris mcdunna joining me, Director, Cold Case Foundation,

607
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 2: homicide detective. He's not the mastermind. The grandma is the mastermind.

608
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 2: Could you please explain why this guy, mister is hewng

609
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 2: is DNA lasting dirt, Why he's not the mastermind?

610
00:36:58,600 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 11: Yeah?

611
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 6: Great, the masterminding if anything. You know, when you thought

612
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 6: you've seen everything, here come the misfits. And you know

613
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 6: he's just one of those, you know, not the sharpest

614
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 6: tool on the shed for lack of a better term.

615
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 6: And he sounds like a sober and citizen, you know,

616
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 6: those guys and gals that say, hey, I'm not part

617
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,840
Speaker 6: of the United States. I'm in the middle of nowhere,

618
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 6: so therefore you have no authority over me. So I

619
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 6: agree with you one hundred percent, Nancy. He's the weak link.

620
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 6: The authorities keep the pressure on him, and hopefully he's

621
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 6: already talked.

622
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 2: Okay, guys, we are waiting as this case inches forward

623
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 2: to trial. And here's my advice to the prosecutor. Since

624
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 2: nobody asked, don't take a plea. Do not take a plea.

625
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: Two ladies, mothers are dead and likely may have died

626
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 2: in that ice chest or else they had their brains

627
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: beaten out with a hammer on the highway.

628
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: Uh huh. Don't take a deal with one of them.

629
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 1: You don't need a deal.

630
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: Let them all stew in the same pot. We stop

631
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: to remember Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Just twenty nine, Deputy

632
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 2: Sheriff Tucker Blakely shot and killed responding to a domestic Knoxville, Tennessee,

633
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 2: US Army Vet combat medic. He has survived by a

634
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: grieving wife, Katerina, and his five year old little boy,

635
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 2: American hero, Deputy Sheriff Tucker Blakely. Let me thank all

636
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 2: of our guests. What a brain trust joining us today.

637
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 2: But I especially want to thank you for being with

638
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 2: us tonight and every night. Thank you to our MSM

639
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 2: viewers and family. Nancy Gray signing off good night

640
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 14: Friend said to be at