1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: In the last episode, I tackled the question of whether 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: we could really know what it's like to be someone else, 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: as in empathize with them so completely that we actually 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: really understand what it is to be in their shoes. Today, 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 1: we're going to ask could technology help us to get there? 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: Could we have dreams celebrities in which some people upload 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: their dreams and other people watch them and a dream 8 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: can go viral? How am I going to explain what 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: consciousness actually feels like through four movies that got it wrong? 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: Why don't you see your own blinks? 11 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: What would it be like to numb exactly one half 12 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: of your brain with barbituates? And what would it be 13 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: like to become a horse? Welcome to Intercosmos with me 14 00:00:56,720 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: David Eagelman. I'm a neuroscientist and author at Stanford and 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: in these episodes we sail deeply into our three pound 16 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: universe to understand why and how our lives look the 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: way they do. Today's episode is about the question of 18 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: whether we can ever really know what it is like 19 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: to be someone else. In the last episode, we discussed 20 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,720 Speaker 1: why we humans are all so different on the inside 21 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 1: and whether it's possible that the gaps are unbridgable, and 22 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: we examine this from the point of view of neuroscience 23 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: and philosophy and literature. But today we're going to turn 24 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: to the angle of technology. Could new technology ever allow 25 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: us to better understand other people? So let's start with 26 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: an old movie that I saw back in nineteen ninety five. 27 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: The movie is called Strange Days, and it explores the 28 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: idea of wearing this special helmet, and the helmet records 29 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,399 Speaker 1: the activity in your brain, all of your memories, your feelings, 30 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: your thoughts. It records that, and the recorded event is 31 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: frozen in time on a data disk. It's like an 32 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: MP four file, but one that captures not just audio 33 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: and video but everything. And then another person can put 34 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: on the helmet and they can experience it all. They 35 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: remember your memories, they feel your feelings, they think your 36 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: thoughts in that moment. In other words, you can live 37 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: a moment in the life of another person, and you 38 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: can also live the same moment of your life more 39 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: than once. So in the movie, a guy named Lenny 40 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: Nero is a former police officer who now works as 41 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: a playback artist in Los Angeles and ends up finding 42 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: a recording of a woman's last moments alive, and he 43 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: becomes involved in a murder investigation, and this leads him 44 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: to a group of people who are planning a terrorist attack, 45 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: and so he has to use his skills as a 46 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: playback artist to stop the attack and save the city. Okay, 47 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: but here's the part I want to concentrate on. Could 48 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: a helmet like this be possible? Could we get our 49 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: neurotechnology to a point where you could record one person's 50 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: experience and have a second person live it. And while 51 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 1: we're holding that question, I want to give a related example. 52 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: Some years ago, a futurist named Michael Andisimov proposed the 53 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: idea of dream celebrities. The idea here was that someday 54 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: in the future, presumably using nano robotics, people would be 55 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: able to record and upload their dreams and then other 56 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: people could watch them. So, could these versions of the 57 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: future be possible even though people are so different on 58 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: the inside, Could we leverage this imaginary futuristic tech in 59 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: this way to know what it is like to be 60 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: someone else? Now, I'm not speaking of this just in 61 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 1: terms of empathy, which I talked about in the last episode, 62 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: but in terms of uploading the experience of one person 63 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:21,359 Speaker 1: and then downloading it into the head of another. So 64 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: let's start today's journey with an idea that I started 65 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: chewing on a very long time ago when I was 66 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: in graduate school and learned about a medical procedure called 67 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: the Wata test WADA. Now, this is something that was 68 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: commonly used before brain surgery when the neurosurgeon is trying 69 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,240 Speaker 1: to determine which side of the brain, which hemisphere is 70 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,480 Speaker 1: responsible for language, because you want to make sure, as 71 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 1: the surgeon, not to damage critical areas involved in speech. 72 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: So what you do is inject a sedative, usually sodium 73 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: amma barbitol, into one hemisphere of the brain and that 74 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: hemisphere essentially goes to sleep for about five or ten minutes, 75 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: while the other hemisphere, the other half of your brain, 76 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:15,359 Speaker 1: remains active. And this is what allows the neurosurgeon to 77 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: test which side of the brain is dominant for language. 78 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: While one half of the brain is anesthetized, the patient 79 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: is asked to speak, to count, to name objects, to 80 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 1: follow commands, to recognize pictures, and you see if language 81 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: is impaired, and if so, then whichever hemisphere is anesthetized 82 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: is the one dominant for speech. Now, after the barbiturate 83 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,559 Speaker 1: wears off, wham, then you do it on the other side, 84 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: putting the other half of the brain to sleep and 85 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,239 Speaker 1: testing everything again. Now you might say, isn't language always 86 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: in the left hemisphere. No, it's about fifty to fifty 87 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: for left handed people. But also some people have a 88 00:05:56,520 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: typical brain organization, for example, if they've had early brain injuries, 89 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: so their language areas might end up in the right 90 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: hemisphere instead of the left. So this is why you 91 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: really want to make sure you know where language is 92 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: before you go cutting around in the brain, because obviously 93 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: one of the worst things you can do to somebody 94 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: is damage their ability to communicate with the outside world. Okay, 95 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: so what I told you is that this water test 96 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: temporarily shuts down one hemisphere at a time so that 97 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: you can assess things. Now, the first time I heard 98 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,599 Speaker 1: about this as a student, I wondered if it would 99 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: be possible to repurpose and expand this technique. For example, 100 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: a cat's brain is a lot like ours, except that 101 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: we have an enormous cerebrum while they have a larger cerebellum. 102 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: So could you put a very specific pattern of sedatives 103 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: into the brain in just the right regions to mold 104 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: your brain to be like a cat's. Now, this is 105 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: just fantasy, of course, no one's ever done this, and 106 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: it's hard to know. 107 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 2: How you would even know if you're doing it right. 108 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: If I do something and I get a very strange feeling, 109 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: how can I ever know that that's exactly what a 110 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: cat feels, as opposed to just some other interesting, weird feeling. Nonetheless, 111 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: you could get closer in theory than you might otherwise. 112 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: But there's a fundamental problem with this idea. And I 113 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: was chewing on this many years ago, and this became 114 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: the intellectual seed for one of my short stories in 115 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: my book some called Descent of Species. Now, I read 116 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: this story on the podcast about a year and a 117 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: half ago, but I'm going to read it again now 118 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 1: for a different purpose. And I'd like you to keep 119 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: your ears out for what the problem is about turning 120 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 1: your brain into someone else's. So here's the story descentive 121 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: Species from some in the afterlife, you are treated to 122 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 1: a generous opportunity. You can choose whatever you would like 123 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 1: to be in the next life. Would you like to 124 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: be a member of the opposite sex, born into royalty 125 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: a philosopher with bottomless profundity, a soldier facing triumphant battles. 126 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: But perhaps you've just returned here from a hard life. 127 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: Perhaps you were tortured by the enormity of the decisions 128 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 1: and responsibilities that surrounded you. And now there's only one 129 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: thing you yearn for, simplicity that's permissible. So for the 130 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:38,439 Speaker 1: next round, you choose to be a horse. You covet 131 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: the bliss of that simple life afternoons of grazing in 132 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: grassy fields, the handsome angles of your skeleton and the 133 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 1: prominence of your muscles, the piece of the slow flicking tail, 134 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,959 Speaker 1: or the steam rifling through your nostrils. As you lope 135 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: across snow blanketed planes. You announce your decision. Incantations are muttered, 136 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: a wand is waved, and your body begins to metamorphose 137 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: into a horse. Your muscles start to bulge, A mat 138 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 1: of strong hair erupts to cover you like a comfortable 139 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: blanket in winter. The thickening and lengthening of your neck 140 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: immediately feels normal as it comes about. Your carotid arteries 141 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: grow in diameter, your fingers blend hoofward, your knees stiffen, 142 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: your hips strengthen, and meanwhile, as your skull lengthens into 143 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 1: its new shape, your brain races in its changes. Your 144 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: cortex retreats as your cerebellum grows, the homunculus melts man 145 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: to horse. Neurons redirect, synapses, unplug and replug on their 146 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: way to equestrian patterns, and your dream of understanding what 147 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: it is like to be a horse gallops towards you 148 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: from the distance. Your concern about human affairs begins to 149 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: slip away, your cynicism about human behavior melts, and even 150 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: your human way of thinking begins to drift away from you. Suddenly, 151 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: for just a moment, you are aware of the problem 152 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: you overlooked. The more you become a horse, the more 153 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:25,880 Speaker 1: you forget the original wish. You forget what it was 154 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: like to be a human wondering what it was like 155 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: to be a horse. This moment of lucidity does not 156 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: last long, but it serves as the punishment for your sins. 157 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: A Promethean entrails pecking moment, crouching half horse, half man, 158 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: with the knowledge that you cannot appreciate the destination without 159 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: knowing the starting point. You cannot revel in the simplicity 160 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 1: unless you remember the alternatives. And that's not the worst 161 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: of your revelation. You realize that the next time you 162 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: reach here with your thick horse brain, you won't have 163 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 1: the capacity to ask to become a human again. 164 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: You won't understand what a human is. 165 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: Your choice to slide down the intelligent ladder is irreversible, 166 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: and just before you lose your final human faculties, you 167 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: painfully ponder what magnificent extraterrestrial creature, enthralled with the idea 168 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 1: of finding a simpler life chose in the last round 169 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: to become a human that was dessentive species from my 170 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: book sum and the punchline of the story tells you 171 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: everything you need to know for the context of today's question, 172 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: Can you really know what it's like to be something 173 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: else or someone else? The problem is, the more your 174 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: brain becomes something else, then the less you would be 175 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 1: able to keep track of the original you who was 176 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: asking the question. So could you modify your brain to 177 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: make it like a cat's brain? When you got there, 178 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be able to remember what the original question was. 179 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 1: So let's think about this and extend this. This is 180 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: the same as saying I want to be the actor 181 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: John Malkovich. If you were actually being John Malkovich, you 182 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: wouldn't remember what it was like to be you, wondering 183 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: what it was like to be he. And this is 184 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: the same problem with the movie Strange Days. During playback 185 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: with this helmet, the conceit is that the observer temporarily 186 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: quits his own memories in state of consciousness and takes 187 00:12:41,880 --> 00:13:03,160 Speaker 1: on that of someone else. Okay, so you can't change 188 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: your brain to be exactly someone else's and still retain 189 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: any notion of you. 190 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: But could you have an experience. 191 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: More like VR where you're still you, but you are 192 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: experiencing someone else's senses, like you're. 193 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: Seeing through their eyes. Well sort of. 194 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: But there's a very interesting thing that happens here which 195 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: exposes something very deep about perception. So to understand this, 196 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: we're gonna dive into four movies that try to do this, because, 197 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: as we'll see, this is actually a tougher challenge than 198 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: you might imagine. Okay, so, there was in fact a 199 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: movie called Being John Malkovich. You may have seen it. 200 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: In that movie, there's a struggling puppeteer who discovers a 201 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: hidden door that leads directly into the mind of the 202 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: actor John Malkovich. So for fifteen minutes at a time, 203 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: people can experience the world through Malkovich's eyes until they're 204 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: ejected onto the side of the New Jersey Turnpike. 205 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: Now, how did the. 206 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: Director Spike Jones actually implement this on camera? Well, when 207 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: a character enters the portal, the film switches to a 208 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: first person perspective, literally showing what John Malkovich sees through 209 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: his eyes. Now, to simulate the feeling of inhabiting another 210 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: person's body, what the camera does is mimic the movement 211 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: of the head and it shows us when Malkovich is blinking. 212 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,560 Speaker 1: Essentially the curtain drops because we're on the inside of 213 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: his head and we're seeing those eyelids. And there's also 214 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: a confined feeling of a tunnel. In these shots. The 215 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: edges of the frame are darker, giving the sense that 216 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: you're looking through a peopole or wearing blinkers. Now, this 217 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: is very interesting, right, because that's not actually your experience 218 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: of the world when you're inside your own head. So first, 219 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: what is the reason that you don't see your own blinks? 220 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: Is it because a blink is too fast to notice? 221 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: After all, it only takes eighty milliseconds. Well, no, that's 222 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: not it, because if you are looking out in a 223 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: well lit room and I flick the lights on it 224 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: off for just eighty milliseconds, you have no problem at 225 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: all detecting that. In fact, you can detect something much 226 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: shorter than that. So what's going on why don't you 227 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: see your own blinks? Well, the answer is that you 228 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: have circuitry in your midbrain that sends the motor command 229 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: to blink your eyelids, and it also sends a copy 230 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: of this command to your visual system so that it 231 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: knows a blink is coming. But there's even a deeper 232 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: answer here. The general story, as you have heard me 233 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: talk about in many other episodes, is that you're not 234 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 1: seeing the world out there. Exactly what you're seeing is 235 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: your internal model of what you believe is out there. 236 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:57,000 Speaker 1: It's a construction of your brain. Only five percent of 237 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: the input to your visual cortex is coming from the eye. 238 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: All the rest is feedback. It's internally generated activity telling 239 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: you what you expect to see given your entire history 240 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: with the world. And it turns out you don't need 241 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: your eyes at all for vision. You can have full, 242 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: rich visual experience even with your eyes closed. This is 243 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: the experience you have every night when you're dreaming, So 244 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: you only see your internal model of the world. And 245 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: this is why a blink does not disrupt your vision 246 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: because your brain knows it's coming, and so your model 247 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: that I am in this room or I'm walking along 248 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 1: the sidewalk, that show continues on even though the data 249 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: is interrupted every few seconds. So all this is to 250 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: say that if you were inside someone else's sensory experience, 251 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: you wouldn't see blinks, and also you wouldn't have tunnel vision. 252 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 2: Why not? After all, your visual field is only. 253 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: About one hundred and twenty degrees across out of the 254 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: three hundred and six degree world. You're only seeing a 255 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: slice of about a third of the vision that's available 256 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: around you. So why do we feel like the world 257 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 1: doesn't have edges. It's because what you experience is your 258 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: internal model of a full three hundred and sixty degree world. 259 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: And that's because you've looked around and you've filled in 260 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: the picture, sometimes with very low resolution and sometimes just 261 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: with assumption. But in any case, you have a sense 262 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: of a full world around you. So again, if you 263 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: were actually experiencing someone else's vision, it wouldn't look like 264 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: a tunnel. So this is a very difficult problem to 265 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 1: solve if you are Spike Jones or any movie director 266 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 1: and you're given this challenge of presenting what it would 267 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: be like to be inside someone else's head experiencing their vision. 268 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: And in fact, something that struck me is that Jones 269 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: put in the blinks and the tunnel vision, but he 270 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,360 Speaker 1: didn't display, for example, the fact that your eyes are 271 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: making large jump three times a second. These are called 272 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: the CODs. Even when you feel like you're just calmly 273 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: observing the world in front of you, your eyes are 274 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: constantly dashing around to find new information. Again, we're not 275 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:17,360 Speaker 1: aware of this because all we experience is our internal model, 276 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: and our eyes are just seeking new data to put 277 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: into that. By the way, if it doesn't feel like 278 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: your eyes are always dashing around, just get in the 279 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: habit of watching other people's eyes and you'll see that 280 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: they're making large jumps every third of a second. 281 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,239 Speaker 2: So look, I want you to try this. 282 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: Take the video camera on your phone and record the 283 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: scene around you, but jerk the camera around three times 284 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: a second, just like your eyes are doing. Now play 285 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 1: the video back, and you're gonna see that. It looks terrible. 286 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,439 Speaker 1: It's nauseating to try to watch this. Why because you're 287 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: not experiencing those movements. You're just experiencing your internal model. 288 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 1: And if your spike Jones and you really really wanted 289 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 1: to capture the information directly from somebody's eyeballs, you'd have 290 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: to take into account that you only have color vision 291 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 1: right at the very center of your visual field, because 292 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: that's where you have cones, the color photoreceptors, and your 293 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:17,959 Speaker 1: retina and everything in your periphery is taken care of 294 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:19,360 Speaker 1: by rods. 295 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 2: So that's black and white vision. Most of your. 296 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: Vision is black and white. But you never noticed this. 297 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: You think the whole world is in color simply because 298 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: you are moving your eyes around and your internal model 299 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: is keeping track of everything in color. Again, if you 300 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: don't believe me on this, ask your friend to take 301 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,879 Speaker 1: some colored dry erase markers and hold them in his 302 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: hand and whatever order he wants to put them in. Now, 303 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 1: stand just a few feet away from him and look 304 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: straight at his nose, and have him hold the markers 305 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: out at his arm's length, but don't look at the markers. 306 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: Stay fixed right on his nose and try to name 307 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: the order of the colors of the markers, and what 308 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: you'll see is that you can't even see the colors. 309 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: If you're actually trying to do a task that involves 310 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: color out in your periphery, you just can't do it 311 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: because there is no color out there. You have to 312 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: move your eyes there to see any color. Okay, So 313 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: let's get back to being John Malkovich. So Spike Jones 314 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: didn't include all these other flourishes about ciccads and black 315 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 1: and white vision in the periphery, but obviously it wouldn't 316 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: have helped if he did, it would have just made 317 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: it worse, because real vision is nothing like seeing blinks 318 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: and looking down a tunnel and seeing siccads and seeing 319 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 1: most of the world in black and white. Instead, the 320 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: experience of vision is like being embedded directly in a full, rich, 321 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: colorful world. So this is a tough challenge for a 322 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: movie director to make an attempt to step into someone 323 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 1: else's head. And it's not just being John Malkovich, but 324 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: lots of movies try this sort of thing, trying to 325 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: show what it's like for you to be inside someone 326 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 1: else experiencing what it's like to be them. So let's 327 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 1: return to the movie Strange Days. As I mentioned earlier, 328 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: in that movie, you can record an experience from someone, 329 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: let's say, while they're committing a robbery, and so we'll 330 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: put aside the problem that you can't experience the whole thing, 331 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: the emotions, the thoughts, the feelings. But again, we're just 332 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: going to ask what the movie director did to make 333 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: us feel like we were inside the visual system of another. 334 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: So when the director needed to show us this, he 335 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: showed us from a first person point of view, because 336 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: after all, that's what was being sold in the helmet. 337 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: And what we saw was the camera bouncing up and down, 338 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: indicating that the first person point of view we were 339 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: in was running on foot from the cops. Now, that 340 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: cracked me up because it represents a basic error of 341 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: what it's really like to be running. When you are running, 342 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,679 Speaker 1: your visible world does not bounce up and down. Your 343 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: visual system takes account of the movement of your muscles 344 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: and it compensates for that. As a result, your view 345 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: of the outside world is steady. And this is because 346 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: your conscious view is a notion of the world outside 347 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: of you. Your visual system isn't simply there to register 348 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: the data coming in. Whatever hits your eyes is simply 349 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: contributing to the model of a stable outside world. And 350 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: as I said, a lot of this has to do 351 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: with your body making predictions about how the world will 352 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: change when it moves. Just as one quick example of this, 353 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: do you think it would have helped if the director 354 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: in Strange Days had the protagonist's hands reaching in in 355 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: front of the camera. Would this look more realistic as 356 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: though your own hands were coming into your field of view. 357 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,400 Speaker 1: That would have made things even worse, even less convincing, 358 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: because although we do see our own hands reaching from 359 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 1: below our visual fields, we are the ones controlling them, 360 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: and that makes all the difference. We can predict exactly 361 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: where they are and when they'll appear, because the regions 362 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: of your brain that sends commands out to your body 363 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: also sends copies of those commands all around to the 364 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: rest of your brain, so that your visual system, for example, 365 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: knows what's coming. If you want to read more about this, 366 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: this is what's known as the motor efherence copy. Let 367 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 1: me give you a good example of this point. So 368 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,159 Speaker 1: let's look at the movie Hatchi. This movie is about 369 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: a college professor Richard Gere, who finds an abandoned puppy 370 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: at a train station and takes them home, and they 371 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: form a very close bond. And every day Hotchi waits 372 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,679 Speaker 1: at the train station for the Professor to return from work. 373 00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: But then the Professor dies unexpectedly, but Hotchie continues to 374 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: return to the train station every day, waiting faithfully for 375 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 1: nearly a decade, unaware that his owner is gone. It's 376 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: a total tear jerker. Now here's the thing. The director 377 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: wanted to show some of the shots from the dog's 378 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: point of view, so here's how he went about this. 379 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 2: First, he films the dog lying on. 380 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: The grass with legs stretched in front and chin on 381 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: the ground, watching the professor clipping the rose bushes, and 382 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: suddenly we cut to the dog's point of view. We 383 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: see the professor from a very low angle and in 384 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: black and white. Okay, fine, but to drive this point home, 385 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: we are then back outside the dog and we see 386 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: the dog roll over sideways onto the grass, and then 387 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: the director cuts to the internal dog camera and we 388 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: see the horizon rotate to vertical, and then we're back 389 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: outside the dog and we see the dog roll over 390 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: until his paws are sticking up in the air and 391 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: his head is upside down. And now the camera jumps 392 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: back into the dog and shows us the world of 393 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: the garden flipped. 394 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: One hundred and eighty degrees. 395 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 1: Now, this seems like a clever way to use the 396 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: camera to personalize the dog's experience. 397 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 2: Right wrong. 398 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,160 Speaker 1: There's an interesting rookie error of perception here. When your 399 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: head turns sideways, the world doesn't turn sideways. Try it. 400 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,679 Speaker 1: Try it turning your head the world remains stable, and 401 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: your internal model remains stable because you have a sense 402 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 1: of where gravity is. So seeing the world through someone's eyes, 403 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: whether John Malkovich or with the Strange Day's Helmet or 404 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: with Hatchie the Dog, it's not so straightforward to show. 405 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 1: And sometimes the difficulty is even more subtle than that. 406 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: For our fourth movie, take The Terminator played by Arnold Schwarzenegger, 407 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: where he's this killing machine from the future. So how 408 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: does the director try to show us the experience of 409 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: the robot. Well, occasionally the camera switches to the robots 410 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: first person point of view, and what does that look like? Well, 411 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: the shot shows the familiar cinematic landscape, whether he's in 412 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: a hallway or a city street or whatever. But it's 413 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: overlaid now with flickering data. You've got these red gridlines 414 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: and numbers scrolling past, and words pop up and flickers 415 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: of infrared and occasional diagnostic information. So this is meant 416 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: to communicate to us. Now you're seeing what the terminator sees. 417 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 1: But there's a funny paradox here because what we're really 418 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: being shown isn't a first person experience at all. It's 419 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,679 Speaker 1: like the robot has a little film crew living inside 420 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: his head, filming the world through his eyes and then 421 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: adding the heads up display. But that's not how brains 422 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,520 Speaker 1: or machines work. As we've been talking about, well, to 423 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: be inside of you is not the same as peering 424 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: out of your eyes like a camera. Consciousness is our 425 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: experience of being in the world. So in this case, 426 00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: if your consciousness showed numbers, who's watching those numbers? What 427 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 1: this actually suggests is that there's a little Schwarzenegger sitting 428 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: at the back of his head watching and reading these numbers. 429 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: In other words, you don't have a screen inside your mind, 430 00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: even for a robot, even if it were conscious, you 431 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: wouldn't experience an image with data superimposed. Information is encoded 432 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,680 Speaker 1: and interpreted in processed, but there's no need to visually 433 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: represent numbers for itself to read. 434 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 2: Think about it this way. Your brain doesn't. 435 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: Need to overlay subtitles when you recognize somebody's face. Imagine 436 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 1: there were words that read you are now looking at 437 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: the face of Susiq, and then you had to read 438 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: those words and then you understand that you're looking at 439 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: her face. That's not how it works. 440 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 2: You just have a direct experience. 441 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: There's nobody else for whom you would need to display 442 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: the words. So when filmmakers try to show us what 443 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: it is like to be someone or something else, what 444 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: they're really doing is showing us what they think it 445 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,640 Speaker 1: might be to look out from behind someone's eyes. But 446 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,199 Speaker 1: consciousness is not like that. You don't see blinks, you 447 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: don't see a tunnel, you don't see the world bouncing 448 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,240 Speaker 1: when you run, you don't see the world turn sideways 449 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: when you turn sideways, and you don't see words displayed 450 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: in your mind just for you to read and then 451 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: understand them. So what does this tell us? It reminds 452 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 1: us that conscious experience isn't about what your eyeballs are doing, 453 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: but instead what you're experiencing as your internal model. And 454 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: that's why, as clever as these movies are, they can 455 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: never really show us what it's like to be someone 456 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: else from the inside. At best, they give us a 457 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: visual metaphor, but that kind of metaphor is not even 458 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,280 Speaker 1: close to actual experience. So what we're seeing is that 459 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: the plot of Strange Days, where you live someone else's 460 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 1: experience and the way that they experienced it, is presumably impossible. 461 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: So to pull this all together, let's return to the 462 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: idea of dream celebrities, this idea of recording your dreams 463 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: and playing them to someone else and becoming a social 464 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: media star of the nocturnal world. So let's make sure 465 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: this is clear. You could imagine just getting the visuals 466 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: of what someone else saw, but there are a couple 467 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: of things to note here. If I just measured the 468 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: activity in your visual cortex while you dreamed, and then 469 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: I fed that same data into stimulation of my visual cortex, 470 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be exactly the same because even in the 471 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: primary visual cortex there are individual differences, So what I 472 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: saw would be a warped version of what you saw. Okay, 473 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: no problem. Some day in the future we could morph 474 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: from your visual cortex to my visual cortex and warp 475 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: the show appropriately. But the deeper problem is your experience 476 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: would just be like a VR visual experience, which is 477 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 1: different than you sharing your thoughts and emotions. For example, 478 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: let's say a particular face comes into your dream. I'd 479 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: see that face, but I wouldn't have any idea that 480 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: to you, to face strikes terror, or maybe the face 481 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: is someone you have a deep crush on, whereas I 482 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: don't know who it is. To me, it's just the 483 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: visual of two eyes and a nose and a mouth. 484 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: That's the difference between a purely visual facsimile on my 485 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 1: visual cortex and my brain becoming your brain and. 486 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 2: Experiencing what you experience. 487 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: So let's even imagine that you said, fine, let's figure 488 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 1: out all the rest of the circuitry and we warp 489 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: it so that you can have exactly what I have. 490 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: But this is just a bigger issue of what I 491 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: mentioned about the visual cortex. The detailed, three dimensional microstructure 492 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: of your brain is unique to you. That's why you 493 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: have your own thoughts and see the world your own way. 494 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: This is the major challenge of transferring thoughts from one 495 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: mind to another. I mentioned in an episode a while 496 00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: ago this scene from the Matrix where Trinity says, tank, 497 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: I need a program for a B two twelve helicopter 498 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: and he the operator, finds one and loads one, and 499 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 1: the knowledge is immediately present in her head. But the 500 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: problem is that Trinity's new knowledge rests in a network 501 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: of her old experiences. For example, pulling on the helicopter 502 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: stick is similar or to pulling on horses reins. And 503 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: the only way to get at this and put that 504 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: new knowledge in is if you knew every detail of 505 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,120 Speaker 1: Trinity's brain. But again, that's not even the deepest problem. 506 00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: The deepest problem is whether you could ever be two 507 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: people at once. If you were able to figure out 508 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: the mapping from your brain to someone else's brain so 509 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:25,800 Speaker 1: that you could somehow download his dream state into your head, 510 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,400 Speaker 1: you wouldn't be you anymore experiencing his dream You would 511 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: be someone else with no knowledge of you. And what's 512 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: the point of that? Okay, so what we talked about 513 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: so far is the possibility that becoming someone else is 514 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 1: going to be impossible. 515 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 2: But could you nonetheless get. 516 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: Closer by adding new inputs to the brain. Way back 517 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: in episode twelve, I talked about the technology that we 518 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: built in my lab, for example, a vest covered and 519 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: vibratory motors that can put specific patterns onto your torso 520 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: and you can feed in new data streams to the 521 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: brain that way. Could this give you some little window 522 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: into someone else's experience. So as one example, we shrunk 523 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 1: this vest down to a wristband, and then we had 524 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: people wear the wristband on one hand and a smart 525 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: watch on the other, and the smart watch tracks all 526 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: kinds of things about their physiology, like their heart rate 527 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: and heart rate variability and galvanic skin response. And we 528 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: had that data stream from the watch over the Internet 529 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: and into the wristband. So you are feeling a summarized 530 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: version of your physiological signals that are normally invisible. But 531 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: that's not the really interesting part. The really interesting part 532 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: was that we now put the wristband on someone else. 533 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: Say you're a romantic partner, and now he or she 534 00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: can be across the country, but can be constantly feeling 535 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,760 Speaker 1: your physiology and know when you're stressed and when your 536 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: heart rate is going up and your galvanic skin response 537 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: is rising. Now, I'm not totally clear whether this would 538 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: be good or bad for couples. But it is a 539 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: way of opening up a small channel into the experience 540 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 1: of someone else. And I think there are many ways 541 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: that adding new senses could bring you closer to someone 542 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: else's experience. For example, someone who is born blind is 543 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,799 Speaker 1: not able to understand what vision is. If you have 544 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: a friend who's born blind and you say, yeah, I'm 545 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: capturing photons from half a mile away, and I can 546 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: perceive what's out there, and the person walking towards me 547 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: from a distance, your friend. 548 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 2: Has no way of understanding that. Because they're your friend. 549 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: They might pretend that they sort of get it, but 550 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,879 Speaker 1: they can't because they've never had the experience of this 551 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:57,239 Speaker 1: super spy technology of capturing distant photons. So if you 552 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: took someone like Helen Keller who was born deaf and blind, 553 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: and you fed in the auditory and visual data, let's 554 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: say through a vest or wristband, so she could tap 555 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: into those experiences, I do think that would get her 556 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: slightly closer to understanding what it is like to be 557 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,160 Speaker 1: a hearing and cited person. So I think as we 558 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: get better at figuring out how to add senses directly 559 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 1: to the brain, we can at least get closer to 560 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,160 Speaker 1: understanding the sensory experiences that other people may have. And 561 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: I'll just mention that in an earlier episode, I've also 562 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: talked about how flexible the brain is in terms of 563 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: adding new interfaces for moving, like robotic arms that you 564 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: could control with your brain. The only point I want 565 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 1: to make today is that by coming to have a 566 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 1: different body, like let's say you're able to control a 567 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: robotic trunk, you might be able to get closer to 568 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: understanding what it is like to be another creature, like 569 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,279 Speaker 1: an elephant. Okay, so let's wrap up. We set out 570 00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:06,520 Speaker 1: today chasing a timeless question. Can we ever truly know 571 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: what it is like to be someone else? Not just 572 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: to guess or to empathize or imagine, but to be 573 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 1: in their skin, to see through their eyes, to feel 574 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:23,040 Speaker 1: with their nervous system. Technology peases us with this dream, 575 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: from the mind recording helmets of strange days to the 576 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 1: dream sharing fantasies of tomorrow's celebrity subconscious. But the closer 577 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: we approach the boundaries of another mind, the more we 578 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: find the self slipping through our fingers. To become someone 579 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 1: else is to lose the very self who wants to 580 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: know that, and we saw that consciousness is not a 581 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: camera looking out, but a story being told from the inside, 582 00:36:55,719 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 1: a model stitched together from prediction and memory and bodily anchoring. 583 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: And that story can't be exported wholesale. It's inseparable from 584 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: the teller. Now, movies try to do this. Directors try 585 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: to jump into other heads with first person shots and 586 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: tilted frames and blinking eyelids and bouncing camera rigs. But 587 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: even the cleverest cinematography can't breach the firewall of subjectivity. 588 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: You can mimic a viewpoint, but not the viewing. You 589 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: can borrow the eyes, but not the mind behind them. 590 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: And so every attempt to simulate another's experience is like 591 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: trying to paint a dream with a camera. The image 592 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:53,480 Speaker 1: may flicker with familiarity, but the feeling remains out of reach. Okay, 593 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: but still, when we're trying to understand someone else, we 594 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: can build bridges. Maybe they're not full crossings, but they're footpaths. 595 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: With wearable technology or shared biofeedback or sensory augmentation, we 596 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 1: can inch closer, not to being one another, but to 597 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,399 Speaker 1: understanding one another a little more richly, And. 598 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 2: Perhaps that's enough. 599 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: Perhaps the future is not about dissolving the boundaries between selves, 600 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:28,760 Speaker 1: but about illuminating those boundaries, tracing their contours with data 601 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: and compassion and curiosity. 602 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 2: We may never fully be each other, but we. 603 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: Might, with the right tools and intentions, meet more meaningfully 604 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: at the borders. Go to eagleman dot com slash podcast 605 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: more information and to find further reading. Find me on 606 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: substack or send me an email at podcasts at eagleman 607 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 1: dot com with questions or discussion, and check out and 608 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 1: subscribe to Inner Cosmos on YouTube for videos of each 609 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: episode and to leave comments Until next time. I'm David Eagleman, 610 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: and this is Inner Cosmos.