Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of
Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the
Speaker 1: Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.
Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,
Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.
Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.
Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you
Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help
Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes
Speaker 1: in their lives.
Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,
Speaker 2: a woman comes to us for help connecting with her husband,
Speaker 2: her children, and her own emotions.
Speaker 3: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of
Speaker 3: saying he loves me, like I have a hard time
Speaker 3: saying I love you back.
Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.
Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is
Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.
Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,
Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may
Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,
Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part
Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length
Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have
Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. So
Speaker 1: hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have this week
Speaker 1: at our box?
Speaker 2: Well, today we have a letter about trauma and its
Speaker 2: lasting effects on us and our relationships as adults. And
Speaker 2: it goes like this, Deotherapists. I am a mum of
Speaker 2: four boys, and I woke up to my emotions about
Speaker 2: four years ago. I was super emotionally repressed before this,
Speaker 2: and I'm learning that everything is about staying present to emotions.
Speaker 2: My issue is that I have a really difficult time
Speaker 2: being there for my children through their difficult emotions. As
Speaker 2: much as I know that being there for them and
Speaker 2: accepting their hard emotions is one of the biggest gifts
Speaker 2: I can give them, one of unconditional love and acceptance,
Speaker 2: I just can't do it. I turn myself off and disconnect,
Speaker 2: and I find that I need to be away from
Speaker 2: them when they are having meltdowns. I disengage and even
Speaker 2: dissociate to a certain extent. I feel that I'm failing
Speaker 2: them by not being there for them emotionally when they
Speaker 2: need me most. I think part of this may have
Speaker 2: to do with my not being okay with my own
Speaker 2: negative emotions. I've done a tremendous amount of self help
Speaker 2: work and work with a few different therapists to help
Speaker 2: me heal some childhood trauma. I feel bad that I
Speaker 2: can't engage and dive in all the way, and that
Speaker 2: really limits the depths of my relationships. It's like having
Speaker 2: the knowledge, but emotionally not being there. Thanks Melissa.
Speaker 1: So this is a really good example of what happened
Speaker 1: when you haven't had the experience of tolerating and embracing
Speaker 1: your own emotions, and they get triggered when other people
Speaker 1: around you have big am emotions and they're not shy
Speaker 1: about it, especially kids. Kids are not going to edit
Speaker 1: their emotions until they learn from the outside world that
Speaker 1: maybe they should. And I think what she's worried about
Speaker 1: is that somehow she's sending that message to them.
Speaker 2: I agree, and I think that she clearly loves her boys,
Speaker 2: and so I'm sure it must be really difficult for
Speaker 2: her that she feels disconnected from them in this specific way.
Speaker 2: And it's obviously going to be difficult for them as well,
Speaker 2: un as she can change it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think she's right when she talks about
Speaker 1: healing some childhood trauma, because when she talks about dissociating,
Speaker 1: that's what happens with trauma, is that the emotions, whether
Speaker 1: they're yours or there's someone's around you feel so big
Speaker 1: and so scary that you just don't want to be there,
Speaker 1: and so you emotionally remove yourself from the situation. And
Speaker 1: that's what she does. So let's go talk to her
Speaker 1: and find out a little bit more and see how
Speaker 1: we can help.
Speaker 2: You're listening to deal with the therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll
Speaker 2: be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and
Speaker 2: I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist. Hi Melissa,
Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Hi, Hi Melissa, Hi there.
Speaker 2: So we read your letter. You mentioned that you awoke
Speaker 2: to your emotions four years ago. Can you tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about what happened then and what this
Speaker 2: awakening was about?
Speaker 3: Sure, So, four years ago, I was a very emotionally
Speaker 3: not developed person. I was feeling things and feeling overwhelmed
Speaker 3: by them. But I had no way of putting words
Speaker 3: to them. And then my husband and I separated for
Speaker 3: over a year, and during that year I did a
Speaker 3: lot of self growth, self healing work that made me
Speaker 3: really really aware of what was going on and gave
Speaker 3: me a whole dictionaryan language for emotions.
Speaker 1: You and your husband got back together after a year.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 1: Did that have something to do with the fact that
Speaker 1: you were feeling cut off from your emotions?
Speaker 3: I think in all relationships there's two parts to making
Speaker 3: something work. I wasn't aware of what I needed. I
Speaker 3: wasn't able to express what I needed, and I think
Speaker 3: that made it very difficult for my husband to know.
Speaker 3: Because he's a good person and wants to do good
Speaker 3: things for me, he just has no clue. He's not
Speaker 3: able to and to it that himself. So with that said,
Speaker 3: my husband and two of my children are on the
Speaker 3: autistic spectrum high functioning autism. So I realized that about
Speaker 3: my husband about maybe six years ago, and I have
Speaker 3: done a lot of, you know, research, and immersed myself
Speaker 3: in that world.
Speaker 1: How long have you been married and how old are
Speaker 1: the four boys?
Speaker 3: So I've been married eighteen years and my boys are
Speaker 3: seventeen twelve six and one.
Speaker 2: You said that you had trouble with their difficult, big
Speaker 2: emotions when they have them. But tell us first how
Speaker 2: you deal with your own.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a big question. I started feeling them so before,
Speaker 3: I guess a couple of years ago. I was not
Speaker 3: allowing myself to feel them. I shut myself down. I
Speaker 3: was kind of like in survival mode. I tend to
Speaker 3: sit with them a lot more now, so I acknowledge them.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I have conversations with them. Mostly I think I'm
Speaker 3: in touch with them through my writing. So I write
Speaker 3: what I'm feeling. In the beginning, it was very difficult
Speaker 3: to figure it out. Like I would have a like
Speaker 3: a dictionary of feeling words, and I would know I'm
Speaker 3: feeling something, and I would like just scruffle through it
Speaker 3: and try to figure out what it is I'm feeling.
Speaker 3: And I'd go through all the words and like, oh
Speaker 3: my god, I'm feeling lonely and I'd laugh and cry.
Speaker 3: I figure it out heartbroken, and so I have words
Speaker 3: for them.
Speaker 1: There's an actual term for what you're describing. It's called alexiphymia,
Speaker 1: and it means that you don't have a vocabulary for
Speaker 1: what you're feeling. You don't know how to articulate what
Speaker 1: you're feeling, and so sometimes with little kids, we give
Speaker 1: them a chart sort of like the primary colors red, yellow, blue,
Speaker 1: It's happy, mad, sad, right, just to even have a
Speaker 1: place to start with. And I imagine that if you
Speaker 1: had no experience with your feelings, that you would have
Speaker 1: to learn a whole new vocabulary.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, it's like learning a new language. And
Speaker 3: it's so beautiful and so overwhelming, and it's incredible.
Speaker 2: We call that emotional literacy.
Speaker 3: Right, And I've realized now I'm an extremely emotional person,
Speaker 3: and I'll tell you how much I'm feeling anything. So
Speaker 3: in the beginning, I thought, you know, a lot of
Speaker 3: the lack of emotional connect with my husband was because
Speaker 3: he's on his back. But then I realized my part
Speaker 3: is was I was not in touch at all with
Speaker 3: what I was feeling. And you know, I put too
Speaker 3: much of the blame on him. I really did.
Speaker 1: You said a few minutes ago that you were in
Speaker 1: survival mode. What were you trying to survive?
Speaker 3: I would think I was just trying to survive day
Speaker 3: to day life. I had a very rough childhood. My
Speaker 3: marriage was very shaky from the beginning, and I have
Speaker 3: four kids and some of them are very high needs,
Speaker 3: and I was just trying to keep it together, just
Speaker 3: to function, to work, to eat, to feed myself, and
Speaker 3: I wasn't able to do so so well that self
Speaker 3: care wasn't amazing. And then as I developed with the
Speaker 3: emotional stuff, I became so much better at taking care
Speaker 3: of myself.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about the rough childhood?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I didn't realize growing up. My father
Speaker 3: had Asperger's very very like extreme rigid, and my mom
Speaker 3: is from a broken home. She was putting faster care
Speaker 3: as a child, and none of them had any emotional intelligence.
Speaker 3: There was definitely a lot of neglect going around, a
Speaker 3: lot of emotional abuse, some physical abuse.
Speaker 2: When is it you started to realize that your childhood
Speaker 2: wasn't the normal childhood in the sense that it had
Speaker 2: these challenges, because when we grow up, we don't know
Speaker 2: if what we're experiencing is common or not. Necessarily, when
Speaker 2: did you start to get how different your upbringing was.
Speaker 3: I think it started like in my twenties. I noticed
Speaker 3: things were off about it. I started seeing other families
Speaker 3: are different that fathers could be involved with their with
Speaker 3: their kids. I think as a child, I knew something
Speaker 3: was off. I just didn't know what.
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something that felt
Speaker 1: off to you in retrospect?
Speaker 3: My mother would have rages and become violent or just
Speaker 3: scream crazy stuff like I think the last time, maybe
Speaker 3: when I was about nineteen, she was complaining about my
Speaker 3: father not giving her enough money to do shopping, and
Speaker 3: I said something that nice to my dad, like stopping
Speaker 3: such a stingy person, or you know, something a child
Speaker 3: probably shouldn't say to a parent. But I kind of
Speaker 3: left the room, and all of a sudden, she came
Speaker 3: behind me and started like punching me in my head
Speaker 3: and like and just you know, chasing me and saying
Speaker 3: I'm going to kill you. Things like that where they're
Speaker 3: just I think anyone would really know that's off. So
Speaker 3: I think I've had to learn a lot on how
Speaker 3: to separate between you know, what's her and what's me.
Speaker 2: You said you've been in therapy over these past years.
Speaker 2: How much work have you done on trying to really
Speaker 2: understand the experience you had and as a child through
Speaker 2: the eyes of someone who then does recognize what was
Speaker 2: acceptable and what wasn't. How much self compassion have you
Speaker 2: developed for the experiences that you went through.
Speaker 3: The first therapist I saw her for many, many years,
Speaker 3: and she was like one of the CBT model kinds,
Speaker 3: and I don't think it really worked for me because
Speaker 3: she never reflected back. So I never had a sense
Speaker 3: of normalcy from her either, which means if I described
Speaker 3: something crazy, she wouldn't necessarily GOHI that's absolutely nuts. She
Speaker 3: would say, you know, how can we reframe that? Or
Speaker 3: it really didn't help me. I think about four years
Speaker 3: ago is when I really started looking at what happened
Speaker 3: and seeing it and working on the self compassion. I
Speaker 3: think that has been key.
Speaker 1: I think what you're really talking about is what we
Speaker 1: call emotional validation. And I think you were really craving
Speaker 1: that because when you were a girl, you must have
Speaker 1: wondered at some point is this typical? Or is this
Speaker 1: my fault? Or is something going on with my parents?
Speaker 1: And so you didn't get that emotional validation of yes,
Speaker 1: this is not okay, Yes this is not about you,
Speaker 1: Yes this is something that's going on with your parents.
Speaker 1: And so when you just told us the story of
Speaker 1: your mother had this reaction of where she started hitting
Speaker 1: your head. I don't know if you saw our faces,
Speaker 1: but we just empathized so much with the pain of
Speaker 1: that and the confusion and also the sense of betrayal
Speaker 1: that your parents are supposed to be the people who
Speaker 1: protect you and yet you're afraid of them. And if
Speaker 1: you don't get the validation, it's hard to know what
Speaker 1: to do with your own feelings when you have them.
Speaker 1: So when you said I'm actually a very emotional person,
Speaker 1: we're all very emotional People's human is you just aren't
Speaker 1: used to feeling your emotions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear that. I totally hear that.
Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit, then, what happens with your sons?
Speaker 2: You mentioned meltdowns in your letter. Could you give us
Speaker 2: an example of the kinds of situations that you find
Speaker 2: yourself in with your sons that you have a hard
Speaker 2: time dealing with emotionally, that you disconnect.
Speaker 3: Yesterday, my son came home and he wanted to hop
Speaker 3: on the computer, and I said, we're gonna help mommy
Speaker 3: for a little bit first, and you know, although I
Speaker 3: know it's unexpected, he had a complete meltdown. He's twelve.
Speaker 3: So you wouldn't expect him to lie on the floor crying, screaming.
Speaker 3: It was extremely loud, and I don't know what happens
Speaker 3: to me from loudness, but I can't manage it, like
Speaker 3: I'm very sensitive to noise. And then the end, I said,
Speaker 3: you know, like you have ten seconds to just get
Speaker 3: yourself to your room because you cannot stay here and
Speaker 3: scream while I'm cleaning with your other brother. And then
Speaker 3: I went out on the stroller with the baby and
Speaker 3: we went for a walk just to get a break
Speaker 3: from the noise. But I'm not there with him. I'm
Speaker 3: not there with him in the moment.
Speaker 1: You said you have two sons who are on the spectrum?
Speaker 1: Is that one of the suns?
Speaker 3: No, it's not. He's probably one of my easier ones.
Speaker 1: That reminds me a little bit of what happened with
Speaker 1: your parents, where they would have these very exaggerated reactions
Speaker 1: to things and you had to sit there and think, well,
Speaker 1: is this typical? Is this not typical? And I think
Speaker 1: the same thing with your son. You said, well, he's twelve,
Speaker 1: so I don't think he should be doing that, But
Speaker 1: at the same time, you're not really sure. I think
Speaker 1: that's sort of a replication of something that you've experienced
Speaker 1: your whole life, which is, how do I know what
Speaker 1: is typical acceptable?
Speaker 3: Totally relate to that? That really resonates.
Speaker 2: The example he gave Melissa is one in which your
Speaker 2: son had an unusual reaction. I'm curious about what happens
Speaker 2: in the regular life experiences when the boys feel sad
Speaker 2: or upset or disappointed or rejected. What happens in moments
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, my six year old might come and say
Speaker 3: his one year old brother smashes tower, he bolt, and
Speaker 3: he's really, like, really angry and really upset about it.
Speaker 3: I don't think I typically will respond with a lot
Speaker 3: of empathy. I'll say I'm sorry, but I don't really
Speaker 3: feel it, quite honestly, And you know, I might also
Speaker 3: shift some other responsibility to him, like you know, your
Speaker 3: brother's up right now and he can reach it, maybe
Speaker 3: he should be doing it on a different surface or
Speaker 3: in a different room with the door closes or something
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 1: What happens inside of you that kind of makes you disengage,
Speaker 1: Because the response I just heard was very dis engaged.
Speaker 3: I think because there's so much screaming and noise accompanied
Speaker 3: with it. It's really hard for me to even hear
Speaker 3: what he needs.
Speaker 1: But what actually happens in your body? Can you close
Speaker 1: your eyes for a minute and tell us what happens
Speaker 1: when you go back and think about that.
Speaker 3: I think I cringe, like at the noise, and I
Speaker 3: feel like I free somewhat. And I think if the
Speaker 3: noise level is high enough, I can't even think, like
Speaker 3: I can't figure out what I need to do, you know.
Speaker 3: I like if my kids screaming for food and they're
Speaker 3: hungry right now and I'm trying to get something, I'll
Speaker 3: open the fridge and not be able to get anything
Speaker 3: out because I'm not really functioning. I'm not really able
Speaker 3: to think, like, what is it I need to do
Speaker 3: next in order to help the child. I'm just more frozen.
Speaker 2: So the noise really makes a big difference to you.
Speaker 2: There's about the view that knows, Yeah, I can't spend
Speaker 2: a second going oh, I'm sorry, honey, and before you
Speaker 2: go to but maybe put it on the table because
Speaker 2: you can reach the younger brother. Is that something that
Speaker 2: comes to you in hindsight or is that something you
Speaker 2: recognize even in a moment, but feel frozen because of
Speaker 2: the noise.
Speaker 3: I think it's easier in hindsight, but many times it
Speaker 3: is in the moment, but I'm frozen, or because I
Speaker 3: feel like almost a repulsion to the child, like just
Speaker 3: get away from me, Just go away, leave me alone.
Speaker 2: Their pain is causing you so much distress when we
Speaker 2: feel pain, and emotional pain registers in the brain very
Speaker 2: very similarly to physical pain, and our response to physical
Speaker 2: pain is often to lash out in anger, and our
Speaker 2: response to emotional pain can be very similar sometimes. And
Speaker 2: so I'm assuming that at some of those moments their
Speaker 2: distress is triggering a lot of pain in you. Is
Speaker 2: that something that you've realized.
Speaker 3: I didn't realize, but it sounds true.
Speaker 2: So then it's about you being able to manage your
Speaker 2: pain as well as theirs, because that's what keeps getting triggered.
Speaker 3: I don't think I could do both at the same time.
Speaker 2: The question is whether you're doing either of them, because
Speaker 2: it sounds like when you freeze, then you're not dealing
Speaker 2: with yours or theirs.
Speaker 3: Correct them not.
Speaker 1: In response to threats, emotional threats, physical threats, there's fight,
Speaker 1: flight and freeze. So a lot of people know about
Speaker 1: fight or flight. In an argument like with a partner,
Speaker 1: for example, but especially with the history of trauma, freeze
Speaker 1: is very common, and I think what you're doing is
Speaker 1: you're going straight into freeze. And so as guy was saying,
Speaker 1: it's hard for you when you're frozen to manage your
Speaker 1: pain or your child's pain. You're standing in front of
Speaker 1: the refrigerator with the door open, unable to move. And
Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that would be
Speaker 1: really helpful is to understand a little bit more about
Speaker 1: how in the last four years since you've had this awakening,
Speaker 1: you've come to manage your own emotions.
Speaker 3: That's a big question. I think I do come to
Speaker 3: myself with a lot more self compassion, more like as
Speaker 3: a friend than as an enemy or a judge. Let's
Speaker 3: say I goof up, I know, messed up something, and
Speaker 3: I just put my friends in there and say, you know,
Speaker 3: if she messed up, how would I feel? And I
Speaker 3: would have a lot more compassion. So sometimes that helps.
Speaker 3: I engage in a lot of self soothing practices just
Speaker 3: to help me in general, with hot bath, hot shower, meditate,
Speaker 3: just physical things that I'm doing to calm myself.
Speaker 1: Do you notice in that moment when there's a lot
Speaker 1: of noise that it feels a lot like the noise
Speaker 1: when you were growing up, when you were being yelled at,
Speaker 1: when your parents were having big reactions to things. Does
Speaker 1: it feel reminiscent of that. Sometimes what kids do in
Speaker 1: that moment is they dissociate. They take themselves somewhere else
Speaker 1: in their minds. And you mentioned in your letter that
Speaker 1: sometimes you dissociate with the kids. Does that feel familiar
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 3: I haven't put the two and two together. It feels
Speaker 3: more if I had to put a word, like like
Speaker 3: being in trouble, like being on the hot seat.
Speaker 2: What's the part that feels like being on the hot seat?
Speaker 3: I guess when I hear screaming, I feel like I'm
Speaker 3: supposed to do something with it.
Speaker 2: So danger it feels like danger.
Speaker 3: It does feel like danger.
Speaker 1: Yes, Because when your parents would get very loud, you
Speaker 1: did feel like you were in trouble because they told
Speaker 1: you that you were the cause of their pain. Yes,
Speaker 1: And so every time you hear that loudness, you feel
Speaker 1: like I'm being blamed for this other person's pain, even
Speaker 1: though I'm not quite sure that I'm responsible for it.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: And now when your kids come to you and they
Speaker 1: get very loud, like, look what happened. He knocked down
Speaker 1: my tower. Even though he's not blaming you, he's coming
Speaker 1: to you because he's really upset. You hear it as
Speaker 1: and you, mom should have done something about this, and you,
Speaker 1: mom should have prevented him from knocking down my tower,
Speaker 1: and you, mom need to take away my anger and
Speaker 1: my pain at this, and you are to blame. I
Speaker 1: think that's the message that you're hearing from him.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds true.
Speaker 2: When you have these exchanges and you freeze, what happens afterwards?
Speaker 2: When you unfreeze? Do you do any kind of repair
Speaker 2: work with your son about it later on?
Speaker 3: I don't think I do most of the times, unless
Speaker 3: I like yell at the kid to just go away.
Speaker 3: I might apologize later I'm sorry I yelled at you.
Speaker 3: I shouldn't have done that.
Speaker 2: But you don't go back and say, do you want
Speaker 2: to talk more about how frustrating it is when you're
Speaker 2: building something and your brother comes and ruins it. You
Speaker 2: don't go back and try and talk to them about
Speaker 2: it when they're calmer, when you're karmo, when they're not shouting,
Speaker 2: when you can think, I do not.
Speaker 3: What do you think would happen if you did, I
Speaker 3: think they would explode again. I feel like it's going
Speaker 3: to dredge it up again for them and maybe for me.
Speaker 2: So the feeling you have is that they will not
Speaker 2: be able to control their emotions, even if they're calm
Speaker 2: in the moment, even if it's after the thing actually happened,
Speaker 2: that any discussion of something that's activating or upsetting, they
Speaker 2: will lose control. They will get loud, that you will freeze,
Speaker 2: and that whole cycle will happen. Yeah, but if that's
Speaker 2: not entirely true, what if they can talk about it
Speaker 2: when they're calmer and they're a little more removed and
Speaker 2: have more perspective. Do you think you'd be able to
Speaker 2: have that kind of conversation with them if they were calmer.
Speaker 3: Oh, I think I could. I think I just have
Speaker 3: to be patient, you know, to wait for them to
Speaker 3: completely calm down, and then to bring it up again.
Speaker 3: I guess be brave enough to go back into the
Speaker 3: arena because.
Speaker 2: The paradox of it is, and I think this might
Speaker 2: have been your experience too, that when your parent doesn't
Speaker 2: give you that emotional validation, it makes you get louder
Speaker 2: because you're trying to get something from them. They didn't
Speaker 2: hear it apparently the first time. They didn't get it
Speaker 2: the first time. So I think the way things happen
Speaker 2: now with you freezing and then being loud up this cycle,
Speaker 2: when in fact, if you approach them once they were
Speaker 2: calm and you will calm as well, what you would
Speaker 2: be pulling out of them would be something calmer that,
Speaker 2: in time would help them keep the lid perhaps on
Speaker 2: getting too loud when things happen, because they'd have a
Speaker 2: little bit more of the assurance that Mom can hear
Speaker 2: us even if we're not loud, and especially perhaps if
Speaker 2: we're not.
Speaker 3: I think that would be great.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about the marriage?
Speaker 1: You split up for a year, you got back together.
Speaker 1: What has it been like since you got back together?
Speaker 1: What has changed that has made it work better for
Speaker 1: both of you and particularly in terms of the emotional connection.
Speaker 3: So since we've got back what has changed, I feel
Speaker 3: is mostly on my part is the way I communicate,
Speaker 3: which means if I need something, I need to take
Speaker 3: a shower now, and I need you to watch the
Speaker 3: children while I take the shower. Before the breakup, I
Speaker 3: think I would not have been able to say it
Speaker 3: that way. I just would have been I need a shower,
Speaker 3: and he'd say later and then forget later, and I
Speaker 3: would just explode that I need a shower at some point.
Speaker 3: So I think being able just to verbalize what I
Speaker 3: need and just managing expectations on my part, expecting my
Speaker 3: husband to come with a whole boatload of empathy isn't
Speaker 3: really realistic, and part of it really isn't. Again, he
Speaker 3: had no modeling, you know as well. For that. I
Speaker 3: feel like I am happier, but not because he's, you know,
Speaker 3: stepping up and meeting my needs. It's because I'm stepping
Speaker 3: up a meeting my needs. I'm getting much better at
Speaker 3: self care, taking a lot of time for myself because
Speaker 3: I need a lot of quiet time just to be
Speaker 3: by myself.
Speaker 2: About that. By the way, how much are the five
Speaker 2: guys in the house aware that noise is really difficult
Speaker 2: for mom? Your husband? Is he clear about it or not?
Speaker 3: I think he is aware that it bothers me, but.
Speaker 2: That's putting it way too mildly. Because it bothers you
Speaker 2: means it's a little annoying, but you can manage it
Speaker 2: makes you freeze. It really activates you, it triggers you.
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering if he's clear enough about the fact
Speaker 2: that he could be useful by paying attention to the
Speaker 2: noise level in the house and stepping in, and that
Speaker 2: that would be a very helpful duty as a co
Speaker 2: parent and as a husband on his part. Do you
Speaker 2: think he's clear enough that he can actually add value
Speaker 2: there more than he might be at the moment.
Speaker 3: I think I'd have to verbalize it and express it
Speaker 3: in that way that I really need him to step
Speaker 3: up and help me with that. I find sometimes when
Speaker 3: I do express my overwhelm, he can get judgmental about it.
Speaker 1: What does that look like?
Speaker 3: Well, he'll tell me that it's not normal, or that
Speaker 3: other people aren't like that, or I really should get
Speaker 3: help for that to deal with it a little better.
Speaker 3: It's not empathy.
Speaker 2: I find that when somebody has a sensitivity that one
Speaker 2: of the best responses you can have when somebody says, well,
Speaker 2: you're sensitive, is to say, yes, I am. I have
Speaker 2: a sensitivity. That's why I'm asking for your help to
Speaker 2: kind of own the sensitivity rather than have to apologize
Speaker 2: for it or feel that it's something that you need
Speaker 2: to fix.
Speaker 3: I do own it, and I am very honest about
Speaker 3: being sensitive to many things. I do find that it
Speaker 3: turns judgmental where it's like, this is your issue, you
Speaker 3: need to get help for that.
Speaker 1: When you say that he's framing this as your issue.
Speaker 1: Did the two of you when you split up go
Speaker 1: to couple's therapy together. I'm a little bit unclear about
Speaker 1: who initiated the split up, what caused it, and then
Speaker 1: what did the two of you do to try to
Speaker 1: make things different so that you could come back to other.
Speaker 3: Okay, so before this the split up, we saw many
Speaker 3: marriage counselors. Many of the times my husband would stop
Speaker 3: after four six sessions and say, you know, and now
Speaker 3: I know what I'm supposed to do, so I just
Speaker 3: need to do it. Until then there's no point in continuing.
Speaker 1: Was it your idea to go to counseling?
Speaker 3: I absolutely pushed it. It was, you know, it was
Speaker 3: pretty much a thread over has had many times where
Speaker 3: he'd start, stop, start, stop, in and out all the time,
Speaker 3: but never voluntarily saying, hey, maybe we should get some help.
Speaker 3: So what I did find helpful was during the split up,
Speaker 3: somebody had recommended a marriage coach and it was very
Speaker 3: different from counseling, but it definitely was counseling. We worked
Speaker 3: with that person for maybe a year, just over a year,
Speaker 3: and she was incredible and skilled, and she was the
Speaker 3: one that helped me wake up to my emotions.
Speaker 1: What happened between you and your husband during that time
Speaker 1: in terms of getting closer? What did he learn about you?
Speaker 1: And what did you learn about him?
Speaker 3: I learned to be more vulnerable to him, to let
Speaker 3: him have space to be there for me as a husband.
Speaker 3: I think he did step up to the plate to
Speaker 3: a certain extent, maybe not as much as I would
Speaker 3: have liked. I do think him moving back was premature.
Speaker 3: I felt like I was pressured into it and I
Speaker 3: wasn't ready by him. I was pressured by him and
Speaker 3: a little bit by the marriage coach.
Speaker 1: Did your husband want to move back because he expressed
Speaker 1: missing you?
Speaker 3: No, he wanted to move back for other reasons. I
Speaker 3: think he was very shamed that a separation, I guess,
Speaker 3: and you know the circles where he's from, divorce is
Speaker 3: very frowned upon. He's from a country that just doesn't
Speaker 3: support that kind of stuff. I think he felt maybe
Speaker 3: like a failure. He felt rejected. There were many things
Speaker 3: he was feeling.
Speaker 1: You say you'd think he felt meaning, you're guessing or
Speaker 1: he was able to articulate those to you.
Speaker 3: He was able to articulate, maybe not directly, like he
Speaker 3: was saying I was always afraid I'd get married one
Speaker 3: day and it would never work out, or things like
Speaker 3: that where I could kind of guess that he was
Speaker 3: fearing rejection.
Speaker 1: But he never said I miss you.
Speaker 3: You know what he said, I miss you. But again,
Speaker 3: with people in the spectrum, there's usually no voice, fluctuation,
Speaker 3: or feeling behind it. He may have meant it. I'm
Speaker 3: not saying I felt it.
Speaker 1: I just want to say one thing about people on
Speaker 1: the spectrum that I think there's this misconception that they
Speaker 1: don't feel, and they absolutely feel, and maybe they don't
Speaker 1: express it well, and that is their challenge. So when
Speaker 1: you say there was no emotion in his voice when
Speaker 1: he said I miss you, that does not mean that
Speaker 1: he did not miss you. It means it might have
Speaker 1: sounded a bit mechanical or robotic in terms of the tone.
Speaker 1: But I think that you are very invested in this
Speaker 1: idea that because he's on the spectrum, that he doesn't
Speaker 1: have feelings, and that just not true. He has feelings,
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what to do with them or how
Speaker 1: to articulate them. And I think that you too, actually
Speaker 1: have more in common than you realize. And the way
Speaker 1: that this has been portrayed in your marriage, especially since
Speaker 1: the emotional awakening, has been that you're the one who
Speaker 1: knows how to feel and he doesn't know how to feel.
Speaker 1: And I think that it's something to consider that he
Speaker 1: does know how to feel, but like you, he doesn't
Speaker 1: know how to express it. And I think that there's
Speaker 1: no coincidence that the two of you ended up together
Speaker 1: in the first place.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you that one. I think it
Speaker 3: was also I was questioning where he was coming from.
Speaker 3: So although he may say, you know, I miss you,
Speaker 3: it may be like, hey, I'm not going to have
Speaker 3: a place to live next month, like I really need
Speaker 3: to move in. I was unsure as to which one
Speaker 3: it was that was pushing him saying I miss you.
Speaker 1: Right, And it could be lots of things like the
Speaker 1: logistical piece as well as the emotional piece. But do
Speaker 1: you notice that you didn't ask.
Speaker 3: No, I didn't ask.
Speaker 1: I judged right, and both of you do that to
Speaker 1: each other.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 2: Another thing to keep in mind with people on the
Speaker 2: spectrum is that they often can miss emotional cues. And
Speaker 2: so you're smiling, tell me about that.
Speaker 3: Yes, they definitely will the emotional cues, social cues, physical cues,
Speaker 3: every cue.
Speaker 4: That.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I take it from that that you've put a
Speaker 2: lot of cues out there and many of them did
Speaker 2: not come back. And when they miss them again, another
Speaker 2: misconceptionist that they ignore them. But to ignore something, it
Speaker 2: has to show up on your radar. And often what
Speaker 2: happens is it doesn't show up on the radar. So
Speaker 2: it's not ignoring, it's literally missing, not seeing. And I'm
Speaker 2: glad you know that. I mean, you know that enough
Speaker 2: to smile at it. So I'm glad you know that,
Speaker 2: because otherwise you can equally misjudge the lack of response
Speaker 2: is not caring when that's not the case. It might
Speaker 2: be caring.
Speaker 1: He's so frustrated by the way that noise triggers you
Speaker 1: because it doesn't trigger him in the same way, And
Speaker 1: you're so frustrated that he can't read these cues because
Speaker 1: you can read them very easily. And I think that
Speaker 1: the reason that we're talking about your marriage even though
Speaker 1: you wrote about your children, Is that what the two
Speaker 1: of you do in practice together will help you so
Speaker 1: much with what you do and what you practice with
Speaker 1: your children.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure there are opportunities where your husband passes
Speaker 2: by just as the baby is knocking down the tower
Speaker 2: of the six year old, or whatever the comparable situation
Speaker 2: would be with any of the other boys, and he's
Speaker 2: actually the first parent on the scene. Does he just
Speaker 2: keep walking? Does he intervene? What are his parenting efforts
Speaker 2: with the boys?
Speaker 3: I don't think he's an effective parent in terms of
Speaker 3: stopping it. He might say, well, it's a baby, so
Speaker 3: just let him smash it down. He might like push
Speaker 3: his brother over, and then he'll start yelling at the
Speaker 3: big brother for pushing his baby brother. So I find
Speaker 3: that when he gets involved, I have a lot more
Speaker 3: damage to have to restore than just had he not
Speaker 3: got involved at all.
Speaker 2: Okay, but again there's a bit of a similarity there
Speaker 2: because you had the response of, like, here's what you
Speaker 2: could have done differently rather than contain and validate the
Speaker 2: frustration of the six year old. But since the boys
Speaker 2: haven't been getting the emotional validation from either of you,
Speaker 2: is it something you would be able to have a
Speaker 2: conversation with your husband about that you might have to
Speaker 2: work together as a team so that you at least
Speaker 2: are able to do a little bit more of the
Speaker 2: emotional validation, because I think that if you had his support,
Speaker 2: either in saying to the kids, hey, hey, keep it down,
Speaker 2: lower your voices, or even just being there and standing
Speaker 2: next to you. Often what happens when their two parents
Speaker 2: in the home, If one of them is trying to
Speaker 2: manage a situation and the other just comes and stands
Speaker 2: next to them, doesn't say a word, it really feels
Speaker 2: to the kids like you're operating as a team, and
Speaker 2: it could feel to you like he's being supportive. But
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if his presence might help you unfreeze in
Speaker 2: those moments, or I hope the kids bring it down
Speaker 2: in terms of volume by a notch so you can
Speaker 2: then use some of the skills that you've been practicing
Speaker 2: to respond in a more empathetic and validating way.
Speaker 3: I love that idea of just his presence being there
Speaker 3: because I think that's something he can do and like
Speaker 3: not screw up.
Speaker 1: I just want to also just have you notice your
Speaker 1: language and you said, I think that's something he can
Speaker 1: do and not screw up. There's judgment in that, right,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that he picks up on that. And
Speaker 1: when Guy was talking about presence and having his presence
Speaker 1: there and how that might be more containing for the
Speaker 1: children to see their parents as a team, I wonder
Speaker 1: if his presence is also comforting to you, not in
Speaker 1: terms of in front of the kids, but you did
Speaker 1: decide to marry him, even after the emotional awakening, You
Speaker 1: decided you wanted to stay married to him. In what
Speaker 1: ways is his presence comforting to you? Tell us about
Speaker 1: the positive parts of this marriage.
Speaker 3: That's a hard question to answer. I think I'm disassociating, Melissa.
Speaker 2: I think part of why you might be dissociating is
Speaker 2: because what feels really difficult for you in this moment
Speaker 2: is to contemplate feeling close to him. The question was
Speaker 2: about what is good in the marriage, and that evokes
Speaker 2: emotional closeness, and I think that that's something that you're
Speaker 2: still struggling with. That the idea of the emotional closeness
Speaker 2: is what makes you very anxious and therefore kind of
Speaker 2: dissociate and separate yourself from that strong emotion and I'm
Speaker 2: wondering who in your life do you feel closest to emotionally.
Speaker 3: I have the closest bond with a friend. She does
Speaker 3: not live in my state. I run a support group
Speaker 3: for women with men on the spectrum and she is
Speaker 3: part of it, and we became close to friends through that.
Speaker 2: You're the one that's running the support group, and you
Speaker 2: get close to the person who's in the support group.
Speaker 2: So you can get close to someone because the situation
Speaker 2: almost forces the emotional connection. Because you're running the support group.
Speaker 2: It's your job to be open to the people in
Speaker 2: the group. But I think that it might be very
Speaker 2: hard for you outside of those very specific contexts to
Speaker 2: get close And that's part of the trauma work that
Speaker 2: you've referred to, that there's probably some more work to
Speaker 2: be done there.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I do fear closeness, yes, And that's part of what's
Speaker 2: happening with the boys. I think that to be there
Speaker 2: for them, to contain them, even in that minor frustration
Speaker 2: of the tower being broken, is to love them in
Speaker 2: a deep connective way that might feel threatening in an
Speaker 2: unconscious way because your history is that loving family can
Speaker 2: still be very scary because The thing that stood out
Speaker 2: for me about your description of your mum in that
Speaker 2: scenario was she hit you from behind. It was unexpected,
Speaker 2: it was as you were walking away. That's really difficult
Speaker 2: because when you grow up like that, you really don't
Speaker 2: know when it's coming, if it's from behind. And I
Speaker 2: think there's still work to be done there so that
Speaker 2: you can try and move past some of that trauma
Speaker 2: and that fear that gets triggered, because I think it's
Speaker 2: still operating now in the sense that it's keeping you
Speaker 2: from allowing yourself to get too close even to your children,
Speaker 2: to your husband, to people that you really actually do
Speaker 2: care about.
Speaker 3: What you're saying resonates. I'm like feeling hot, so I
Speaker 3: know it's it's true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you say you know it's true, does that
Speaker 1: mean that you think there might be other feelings about
Speaker 1: your husband that when you stood up there at your
Speaker 1: wedding and you said, I'm going to marry this person,
Speaker 1: did you feel like, yeah, he's okay? Or were you
Speaker 1: excited on some level to marry him even if you
Speaker 1: were also terrified.
Speaker 3: I think part of me was excited on some level.
Speaker 3: I think with a distance, then I've lost a lot
Speaker 3: of respect, and it's possible that respect keeps that distance.
Speaker 2: For me that but also you keep the distance from him.
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 2: So, Melissa, we have some advice for you, and it's
Speaker 2: in two parts. The first part is about the kids.
Speaker 2: We believe that you've been doing a lot of work
Speaker 2: on trying to become more emotionally literate in terms naming feelings,
Speaker 2: and we know that you really want to connect more
Speaker 2: with your kids. We do understand that in the moment
Speaker 2: when they're shouting or crying and it's loud, it is
Speaker 2: going to be very difficult to do that fight flight
Speaker 2: or freeze response is really big. Then it is hard
Speaker 2: to do something about in the moment. But you don't
Speaker 2: have to do it in a moment. If you're frozen,
Speaker 2: you can do it shortly after, once everyone is a
Speaker 2: little calmer. You included. So what would like you to
Speaker 2: do this week is to find opportunities that one of
Speaker 2: the kids is upset about something and you freeze up,
Speaker 2: and after that happens, we would like you to go
Speaker 2: to that child. And we're just going to use as
Speaker 2: an example the tower being toppled over by the baby.
Speaker 2: If after that happens, you can go to your six
Speaker 2: year old and do the emotional validation that is, help
Speaker 2: him name the feeling, because you have the names now,
Speaker 2: And the simple way to do that is to say
Speaker 2: to him something like, I know that when you're working
Speaker 2: on a tower and you've been putting effort into it
Speaker 2: and you're building it, and when your brother comes and
Speaker 2: topples it over, that can be really frustrating and you
Speaker 2: can be really angry. I understand that, and it's okay
Speaker 2: that you feel that way. Just that piece of emotional validation. Now.
Speaker 2: Your concern in the past has been that if you
Speaker 2: say something about his feelings he's feeling angry or he's
Speaker 2: feeling frustrated, it will activate him again and he'll feel
Speaker 2: angry and frustrated again, and then start chatting again, and
Speaker 2: back to frozen you go. However, emotional validation is really
Speaker 2: paradoxical in its impact, because while it seems that by
Speaker 2: bringing up the very emotion that upset him you will
Speaker 2: be igniting the flame again, you will actually be dousing it.
Speaker 2: We respond by calming when somebody really names that feeling,
Speaker 2: we have the same way. You get an insight when
Speaker 2: you ah, I found the feeling in the book you
Speaker 2: go ah, and there's a ease, there's an exhale that
Speaker 2: comes when that happens. That's what you can give each
Speaker 2: of the kids by doing this with them, by giving
Speaker 2: them the names so that they can name their feelings
Speaker 2: and learn to do it much younger than you did,
Speaker 2: and that will be a great gift that you can
Speaker 2: give them. And you can do it after the fact,
Speaker 2: when you're calm, when they're calme. So this week would
Speaker 2: like you to find opportunities to do that. That's the
Speaker 2: first part of the advice.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 1: Part two is that we want to help you think
Speaker 1: a little bit differently about that story that you have
Speaker 1: about you and your husband. The story that you have
Speaker 1: is that your husband is not capable of feeling emotions
Speaker 1: or responding to you in a way that will be
Speaker 1: emotionally satisfying. And we think that the part of that
Speaker 1: story that you're leaving out is that you have trouble
Speaker 1: doing the same thing with him. Now, the reasons might
Speaker 1: be different, but both of you judge the other person
Speaker 1: for the things that you're not getting from one another,
Speaker 1: and both of you think that it's the other person's fault.
Speaker 1: And so what we'd like you to do to help
Speaker 1: maybe edit that story a little bit and see if
Speaker 1: a truer story emerges. Is that we'd like to see
Speaker 1: you hold up your end of what you would like
Speaker 1: to happen in that marriage, which is do you ever
Speaker 1: take his hand? Do you ever show affection toward him?
Speaker 1: For example, in that time when he said that he
Speaker 1: wanted to come back and he said I miss you,
Speaker 1: you made an assumption about why he wanted to come back,
Speaker 1: but you didn't actually say to him, Hey, I'm really
Speaker 1: curious to learn more about what you mean by you
Speaker 1: miss me. So you didn't give him the opportunity to
Speaker 1: tell you something that would have been important for you
Speaker 1: to know, like what is it you mean? And I
Speaker 1: don't think that you were able to let yourself acknowledge
Speaker 1: what you missed about him, because I think there's a
Speaker 1: reason that you decided to re engage in the marriage
Speaker 1: that went beyond logistics or guilt or pressure. And you're nodding,
Speaker 1: so we can see that that's there. So what would
Speaker 1: like you to do this week with your husband is
Speaker 1: to respond to him without the judgment and the very
Speaker 1: rigid story that you have about his ability to be
Speaker 1: emotionally connected and to really consider your own challenges with
Speaker 1: emotional connection and to give in the marriage what you
Speaker 1: would like. You know, when we asked about you know
Speaker 1: the social cues that he misreads, you said, you know
Speaker 1: globally he misreads every single social cue. Does he you know,
Speaker 1: if he took his hand, what would he do with that?
Speaker 1: Are you aware of his sensitivities and the way that
Speaker 1: you're asking him to be aware of yours? And we
Speaker 1: want to see if you notice a difference in your
Speaker 1: own level of satisfaction this week? Do you feel a
Speaker 1: little bit better? Do you feel a tiny bit more
Speaker 1: connected if you do something that addresses your part in
Speaker 1: what's not working in terms of the connection in the marriage,
Speaker 1: and will that somehow influence him to feel more free
Speaker 1: to engage with you.
Speaker 3: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of
Speaker 3: saying he loves me, like I have a hard time
Speaker 3: saying I love you back.
Speaker 2: Do you have a hard time accepting that he does?
Speaker 3: I think for me, I don't know if it's sincere
Speaker 3: or not.
Speaker 2: How do you respond when he says it?
Speaker 3: I usually shrug it off.
Speaker 2: What if the next time he said I love you,
Speaker 2: you said it means a lot to me when you
Speaker 2: say it, I could try that. What will happen if
Speaker 2: you do is it will connect to you a little bit,
Speaker 2: to your feelings, so you might freeze or disassociate. But
Speaker 2: if you have trouble saying it with words, you can
Speaker 2: just walk up to him and rub his shoulder or
Speaker 2: his back to let him know in a gesture that
Speaker 2: you heard and you appreciate it. If you find it,
Speaker 2: you're freezing.
Speaker 3: Okay, So that's like a plan.
Speaker 1: Can you tell us any other examples of how he
Speaker 1: comes to you besides saying I love you.
Speaker 3: Sometimes he'll buy flowers, he will leave it in a
Speaker 3: bah somewhere, or sometimes he'll buy chocolate and just leave it.
Speaker 3: I don't usually receive it well because I feel like
Speaker 3: I need words to go with it and not just
Speaker 3: left around. Like I saw a bag of chocolate, so
Speaker 3: you know, I put it in the grocery shelf because
Speaker 3: I didn't realize they were for me.
Speaker 2: Well, the flowers, you can't mistake the flowers can so,
Speaker 2: and when you get the flowers, what we're suggesting is
Speaker 2: that you go up to and say, I found the flowers.
Speaker 2: That is so sweet, Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: I do. I tell them again, I say, you know,
Speaker 3: it's so thoughtful what you did, but I don't feel it.
Speaker 3: I'm saying it for him.
Speaker 2: But he doesn't have the words like you do. He
Speaker 2: doesn't have the book. All he has is the gestures,
Speaker 2: the actual action, And so it's important to remember that
Speaker 2: the actions really convey true emotion.
Speaker 3: They do I translate them that when he does things,
Speaker 3: he's saying, you know, I can't tell you in words
Speaker 3: what I think of you and how amazing you are,
Speaker 3: But through this little thing, I'm showing you that I am.
Speaker 3: Sometimes I just have to be perceptive and just accept it.
Speaker 1: You know, we have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis is
Speaker 1: that even if he were able to express it in
Speaker 1: words like he does when he says I love you,
Speaker 1: that you would freeze up at that.
Speaker 3: An ouch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay. You don't quite trust someone loving you.
Speaker 1: And so no matter how that's expressed, whether he literally
Speaker 1: says to you, I love you, you don't trust it.
Speaker 1: If he gets flowers but words don't come with it,
Speaker 1: you don't trust it. And so there will always be
Speaker 1: a way to defend against those feelings of this makes
Speaker 1: me really uncomfortable. I don't know how to receive love,
Speaker 1: so I'm going to devalue it, criticize it, and I
Speaker 1: want to just help dismantle the spectrum explanation because I'm
Speaker 1: not saying that that doesn't contribute towards some of what
Speaker 1: the two of you are experiencing. But I think you're
Speaker 1: giving it much more weight than it is actually contributing
Speaker 1: to what's going on between the two of you.
Speaker 3: You're right.
Speaker 2: The irony is that we often, as therapists, say to people,
Speaker 2: don't look at what someone says. Words are cheap. Look
Speaker 2: at what they do that will tell you their true feelings.
Speaker 2: It's advice we give a lot of the time, but
Speaker 2: it's valid here because look at what he does. He gets,
Speaker 2: the flowers, he gets, the chocolates. He even says I
Speaker 2: love you and I miss you, So he's communicating quite
Speaker 2: a bit about his feelings. It's so much to take
Speaker 2: in for you, you're so not used to it. But
Speaker 2: if you can remember that in part, what you're complaining
Speaker 2: about is that he doesn't make you feel enough that
Speaker 2: he loves you when he's actually making you feel it
Speaker 2: as much as you can tolerate, you're the one that's
Speaker 2: not able to tolerate much more right now. So if
Speaker 2: you can work on responding more to him so he
Speaker 2: feels less criticized and that his efforts are seen are
Speaker 2: better than not shrug, he'll be able to do more,
Speaker 2: even if not say more, And you might be able
Speaker 2: to absorb more. And that's a better cycle to be
Speaker 2: in him doing more, you absorbing more, you expressing more,
Speaker 2: him feeling more than doing more. That would be a
Speaker 2: great cycle for you. Guys.
Speaker 3: Wow, that.
Speaker 2: Good job of staying with us. By the way, thank
Speaker 2: you not dissociating because you're really paying attention. It's hard, yes,
Speaker 2: but you're doing a great job.
Speaker 1: We saw that it was hard, and at the same time,
Speaker 1: I think sometimes you don't realize how capable you are.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Thank you, guys, Thank you. Laurie.
Speaker 2: Melissa is really on a journey here in terms of
Speaker 2: discovering her emotional world. I'm very curious to see where
Speaker 2: she would be in five years or in ten years
Speaker 2: if she continued on this journey, because she's truly at
Speaker 2: the beginning of a process that I hope will be
Speaker 2: much more extended and run much deeper in all kinds
Speaker 2: of ways. And so I hope she'll be able to
Speaker 2: pull off what we've asked her to do without feeling
Speaker 2: too dissociated or too frozen by the emotion that comes up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that, and I was so glad
Speaker 1: that we were able to hear the part about her
Speaker 1: husband saying I love you and bringing her flowers. I
Speaker 1: was so moved by that, And you could see that
Speaker 1: she wanted to be moved by that, because we could
Speaker 1: see it in her body language and in her smile.
Speaker 1: But you can also see how much she feels like
Speaker 1: she needs to protect herself from any kind of emotion,
Speaker 1: whether it's an emotion that seems negative because of how
Speaker 1: she associates emotionality with what she experienced growing up, or
Speaker 1: even emotions that seem positive, like I miss you, I
Speaker 1: love you, leaving flowers, leaving chocolates, and exactly the way
Speaker 1: she wants it. But I also feel like that's a
Speaker 1: defense against her being able to really take in love.
Speaker 1: And so I'm excited to hear whether going back to
Speaker 1: her kids and validating their emotions will feel somewhat healing
Speaker 1: for her as well as for the kids, and also
Speaker 1: whether noticing her own resistance to expressing emotion in her
Speaker 1: marriage will bring out something different in her husband. You're
Speaker 1: listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be
Speaker 1: back after a short break.
Speaker 2: We heard from Melissa and we had asked it to
Speaker 2: do a few tasks, all of which are going to
Speaker 2: be emotionally uncomfortable for her. So let's see how she did.
Speaker 4: Hey, Lari and Guy, I just wanted to update you
Speaker 4: and like you know how my week was going. This week,
Speaker 4: I managed to validate my children twice, and I noticed
Speaker 4: a few things. One is it's much easier to do
Speaker 4: it not in the moment. The second thing I noticed
Speaker 4: is originally I believed that it would like reignite them
Speaker 4: if I bought it up. But I think that isn't true.
Speaker 4: I think the truth is I'm really really scared. I
Speaker 4: find it very hard to actually get the words of
Speaker 4: validation out. It's so hard to be present. Both times
Speaker 4: I ended up crying. I felt my stomach clench. It
Speaker 4: was hard for me. But I did notice my children
Speaker 4: did calm down quicker, and I did notice also that
Speaker 4: it created a closeness. I was able to do a
Speaker 4: lot more eye contact that felt really good, you know,
Speaker 4: much as I want that closeness like more than anything
Speaker 4: in the world. I'm also petrified of it. But the
Speaker 4: second thing I noticed was with my husband. I tried
Speaker 4: to be way more aware of the ways that he
Speaker 4: really is acting loving towards me. And you know, the
Speaker 4: stories that I really told myself regarding his ability or
Speaker 4: inability and my parts on not picking up on his
Speaker 4: social cues of his messages of love. And I actually
Speaker 4: share this with him. I shared with him how hard
Speaker 4: it is for me to you know, pick up on
Speaker 4: the love. And I told him to please cue me
Speaker 4: if he's doing something loving. And I'm you know, just
Speaker 4: dismissing it. But I did notice he said a few
Speaker 4: things and I just told him, you know, that means
Speaker 4: a lot to me, and I smiled and I accepted it.
Speaker 4: It really felt awesome, and I noticed, as there's a result,
Speaker 4: I'm feeling a little closer to him. One night this week,
Speaker 4: I was just lying on his arm, just feeling close
Speaker 4: to him, and you know, and I said to him
Speaker 4: something I've never said to him before. I said, you know, honey,
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm home and I don't think I've
Speaker 4: ever felt that before. And if that's not closeness. I'm
Speaker 4: not sure what it is, so again, I want you
Speaker 4: to thank you so much for all you've done to
Speaker 4: help guide me along this journey.
Speaker 1: I think Melissa did an excellent job with both her
Speaker 1: kids and her husband. And what I love so much
Speaker 1: was this concept of the feedback loop that sometimes people say,
Speaker 1: I have trouble interacting with these other people, and they
Speaker 1: don't realize their own role in it. So once she
Speaker 1: was able with her kids to calm down and come
Speaker 1: back to them in a moment when she could gather herself,
Speaker 1: her kids felt seen and heard and understood and they
Speaker 1: calmed down, and then again with that feedback loop, she
Speaker 1: was calmer with them, and I think with the husband
Speaker 1: there was that feedback loop too, where she did thing beautiful.
Speaker 1: She said, I want you to cue me when you're
Speaker 1: doing something loving in case I miss it, and then
Speaker 1: she was able to move closer to him, and that
Speaker 1: moment at the end where she said, you know, I
Speaker 1: feel closer to my entire family now, and that beautiful
Speaker 1: way of expressing it where she said, I was lying
Speaker 1: down with my husband and I told him that I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm home.
Speaker 2: I loved it too, I really did and what I
Speaker 2: really liked about it is that there were two leaps
Speaker 2: of faith. We were making the point with her. Emotion
Speaker 2: validation is scary. You're going to someone and saying you
Speaker 2: understand why they're having these intense emotions. It feels like
Speaker 2: you're igniting them. But when somebody feels understood, it does
Speaker 2: the opposite. And I remember she was a skeptic a
Speaker 2: bit when we said it. She tried it, she saw it,
Speaker 2: and the same thing with her husband. You know, the
Speaker 2: paradox is he's closed off. If I open up, I'll
Speaker 2: only feel more distant when he's closed off. But if
Speaker 2: you open yourself up to him, then you'll end up
Speaker 2: feeding closer. It wasn't obvious to her that these things
Speaker 2: will actually have the emotional impact for her that they did,
Speaker 2: But she took that leap of faith. She did it spectacularly,
Speaker 2: and I'm so glad that she got the results that
Speaker 2: she got because of it.
Speaker 1: I am too, And I hope what Melissa takes away,
Speaker 1: and also what our listeners take away, is that when
Speaker 1: other people feel understood and we let them know that
Speaker 1: we understand them, we start to feel more understood too.
Speaker 1: Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out a year later.
Speaker 5: The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with
Speaker 5: Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship.
Speaker 5: That helped me feel less confused about what it was
Speaker 5: that Blake was looking towards me for and what it
Speaker 5: is that he's looking for me.
Speaker 1: Now, Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't
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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,
Speaker 2: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio,