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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 3: a woman comes to us for help connecting with her husband,

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Speaker 3: her children, and her own emotions.

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Speaker 4: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of

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Speaker 4: saying he loves me, like I have a hard time

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Speaker 4: saying I love you back.

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Speaker 1: First A quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational per

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Speaker 1: This is only. It does not constitute medical or psychological

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Speaker 1: advice and is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 1: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 1: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

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Speaker 1: you may have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By

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Speaker 1: submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use

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Speaker 1: it in part or in full, and we may edit

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Speaker 1: it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear.

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Speaker 1: All names have been changed for the privacy of our

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Speaker 1: fellow travelers. So hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do we

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Speaker 1: have this week at our box?

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Speaker 3: Well, today we have a letter about trauma and its

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Speaker 3: lasting effects on us and our relationships as adults. And

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Speaker 3: it goes like this, Deotherapists. I am a mum of

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Speaker 3: four boys, and I woke up to my emotions about

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Speaker 3: four years ago. I was super emotionally repressed before this,

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Speaker 3: and I'm learning that everything is about staying present to emotions.

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Speaker 3: My issue is that I have a really different time

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Speaker 3: being there for my children through their difficult emotions. As

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Speaker 3: much as I know that being there for them and

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Speaker 3: accepting their hard emotions is one of the biggest gifts

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Speaker 3: I can give them, one of unconditional love and acceptance,

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Speaker 3: I just can't do it. I turn myself off and disconnect,

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Speaker 3: and I find that I need to be away from

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Speaker 3: them when they are having meltdowns, I disengage and even

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Speaker 3: dissociate to a certain extent. I feel that I'm failing

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Speaker 3: them by not being there for them emotionally when they

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Speaker 3: need me most. I think part of this may have

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Speaker 3: to do with my not being okay with my own

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Speaker 3: negative emotions. I've done a tremendous amount of self help

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Speaker 3: work and work with a few different therapists to help

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Speaker 3: me heal some childhood trauma. I feel bad that I

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Speaker 3: can't engage and dive in all the way, and that

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Speaker 3: really limits the depths of my relationships. It's like having

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Speaker 3: the knowledge, but emotionally not being there. Thanks Melissa.

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Speaker 1: So this is a really good example of what happened

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Speaker 1: when you haven't had the exp experience of tolerating and

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Speaker 1: embracing your own emotions, and they get triggered when other

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Speaker 1: people around you have big emotions and they're not shy

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Speaker 1: about it, especially kids. Kids are not going to edit

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Speaker 1: their emotions until they learn from the outside world that

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Speaker 1: maybe they should. And I think what she's worried about

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Speaker 1: is that somehow she's sending that message to them.

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Speaker 3: I agree, and I think that she clearly loves her boys,

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Speaker 3: and so I'm sure it must be really difficult for

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Speaker 3: her that she feels disconnected from them in this specific way,

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Speaker 3: and it's obviously going to be difficult for them as well,

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Speaker 3: un as she can change it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think she's right when she talks about

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Speaker 1: healing some childhood trauma, because when she talks about dissociating,

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Speaker 1: that's what happens with trauma, is that the emotions, whether

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Speaker 1: they're yours or there's someone's around you, feel so big

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Speaker 1: and so scary that you just don't want to be there,

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Speaker 1: and so you emotionally remove yourself from the situ situation.

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Speaker 1: And that's what she does. So let's go talk to

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Speaker 1: her and find out a little bit more and see

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Speaker 1: how we can help.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

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Speaker 3: after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy

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Speaker 3: Winch and this is Deo Therapist. Hi Melissa, Welcome to

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Speaker 3: the show.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Hi Melissa, Hi there.

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Speaker 3: So we read your letter. You mentioned that you awoke

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Speaker 3: to your emotions four years ago. Can you tell us

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Speaker 3: a little bit about what happened then and what this

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Speaker 3: awakening was about?

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Speaker 4: Sure? So, four years ago, I was a very emotionally

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Speaker 4: not developed person. I was feeling things and feeling overwhelmed

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Speaker 4: by them, but I had no way of putting words

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Speaker 4: to them. And then my husband and I separated for

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Speaker 4: over a year, and during that year I did a

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Speaker 4: lot of self growth, self healing work that made me

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Speaker 4: really really aware of what was going on and gave

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Speaker 4: me a whole dictionaryan language for emotions.

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Speaker 1: So you and your husband got back together after a year.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Did that have something to do with the fact that

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Speaker 1: you were feeling cut off from your emotions?

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Speaker 4: I think in all relationships there's two parts to making

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Speaker 4: something work. I wasn't aware of what I needed. I

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Speaker 4: wasn't able to express what I needed, and I think

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Speaker 4: that made it very difficult for my husband to know.

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Speaker 4: Because he's a good person and wants to do good

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Speaker 4: things for me, he just has no clue. He's not

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Speaker 4: able to and to it that himself. So with that said,

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Speaker 4: my husband and two of my children are on the

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Speaker 4: autistic spectrum high functioning autism. So I realized that about

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Speaker 4: my husband about maybe six years ago, and I have

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Speaker 4: done a lot of, you know, research, and immersed myself

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Speaker 4: in that world.

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Speaker 1: How long have you been married and how old are

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Speaker 1: the four boys.

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Speaker 4: So I've been married eighteen years and my boys are seventeen, twelve,

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Speaker 4: six and one.

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Speaker 3: You said that you had trouble with their difficult, big

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Speaker 3: emotions when they have them. But tell us first how

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Speaker 3: you deal with your own.

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Speaker 4: Oh, big question. I started feeling them so before, I

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Speaker 4: guess a couple of years ago. I was not allowing

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Speaker 4: myself to fill them. I shut myself down. I was

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Speaker 4: kind of like in survival mode. I tend to sit

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Speaker 4: with them a lot more now, so I acknowledge them.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I have conversations with them. Mostly I think I'm

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Speaker 4: in touch with them through my writing. So I write

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Speaker 4: what I'm feeling. In the beginning, it was very difficult

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Speaker 4: to figure it out. Like I would have a like

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Speaker 4: a dictionary of feeling words, and I would know I'm

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Speaker 4: feeling something, and I would like just scruffle through it

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Speaker 4: and try to figure out what it is I'm feeling.

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Speaker 4: And I'd go through all the words and like, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, I'm feeling lonely and I laugh and cry

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Speaker 4: on I figure it out heartbroken, And so I have

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Speaker 4: words for them.

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Speaker 1: There's an actual term for what you're describing. It's called alexiphymia,

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Speaker 1: And it means that you don't have a vocabulary for

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Speaker 1: what you're feeling. You don't know how to articulate what

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Speaker 1: you're feeling. And so sometimes with little kids, we give

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Speaker 1: them a chart sort of like the primary colors red, yellow, blue,

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Speaker 1: it's happy, mad, sad, right, just to even have a

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Speaker 1: place to start with. And I imagine that if you

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Speaker 1: had no experience with your feelings, that you would have

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Speaker 1: to learn a whole new vocabulary.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. It's like learning a new language. And

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Speaker 4: it's so beautiful and so overwhelming, and it's incredible.

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Speaker 3: We call that emotional literacy.

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Speaker 4: Right, And I've realized now I'm an extremely emotional person,

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Speaker 4: and I'll tell you how much I'm feeling anything. So

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Speaker 4: in the beginning, I thought, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 4: the lack of emotional connect with my husband was because

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Speaker 4: he's on the spectrum. But then I realized my part

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Speaker 4: is was I was not in touch at all with

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Speaker 4: what I was feeling. And I, you know, I put

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Speaker 4: too much of the blame on him, I really did.

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Speaker 1: You said a few minutes ago that you were in

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Speaker 1: survival mode. What were you trying to survive?

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Speaker 4: I would think I was just trying to survive day

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Speaker 4: to day life. I had a very rough childhood. My

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Speaker 4: marriage was very shaky from the beginning, and I have

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Speaker 4: four kids and some of them are very high needs,

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Speaker 4: and I was just trying to keep it together, just

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Speaker 4: to function, to work, to eat, to feed myself, and

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Speaker 4: I wasn't able to do so so well that self

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Speaker 4: care wasn't amazing. And then as I developed with the

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Speaker 4: emotional stuff, I I became so much better at taking

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Speaker 4: care of myself.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about the rough childhood?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I guess I didn't realize growing up. My father

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Speaker 4: had Asperger's very very like extreme rigid, and my mom

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Speaker 4: is from a broken home. She was putting faster care

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Speaker 4: as a child, and none of them had any emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 4: There was definitely a lot of neglect going around, a

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Speaker 4: lot of emotional abuse, some physical abuse.

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Speaker 3: When is it you started to realize that your childhood

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Speaker 3: wasn't the normal childhood in the sense that it had

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Speaker 3: these challenges, Because when we grow up, we don't know

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Speaker 3: if what we're experiencing is common or not. Necessarily, when

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Speaker 3: did you start to get how different your upbringing was.

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Speaker 4: I think it started like in my twenties, I noticed

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Speaker 4: things were off about it. I started seeing other families

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Speaker 4: are different, that fathers could be involved with their with

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Speaker 4: their kids. I think as a child, I knew something

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Speaker 4: was off. I just didn't know what.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something that felt

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Speaker 1: off to you in retrospect?

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Speaker 4: My mother would have rages and become violent or just

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Speaker 4: scream crazy stuff like I think the last time, maybe

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Speaker 4: when I was about nineteen, she was complaining about my

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Speaker 4: father not giving her enough money to do shopping. And

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Speaker 4: I said something that nice to my dad, like stopping

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Speaker 4: such a stingy person, or you know, something a child

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Speaker 4: probably shouldn't say to a parent. But I kind of

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Speaker 4: left the room, and all of a sudden, she came

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Speaker 4: behind me and started like punching me in my head

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Speaker 4: and like and just you know, chasing me and saying

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Speaker 4: I'm going to kill you. Things like that where they're

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Speaker 4: just I think anyone would really know that's off. So

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Speaker 4: I think I've had to learn a lot on how

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Speaker 4: to separate between you know, what's her and what's me.

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Speaker 3: You said you've been in therapy over these past years.

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Speaker 3: How much work have you done on trying to really

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Speaker 3: understand the experience you had as a child through the

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Speaker 3: eyes of someone who then does recognize what was acceptable

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Speaker 3: and what wasn't. How much self compassion have you developed

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Speaker 3: for the experiences that you went through.

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Speaker 4: The first therapist I saw her for many, many years,

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Speaker 4: and she was like one of the CBT model kinds,

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Speaker 4: and I don't think it really worked for me because

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Speaker 4: she never reflected back. So I never had a sense

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Speaker 4: of normalcy from her either, which means if I described

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Speaker 4: something crazy, she wouldn't necessarily go, hi, that's absolutely nuts.

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Speaker 4: She would say, you know, how can we reframe that?

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Speaker 4: Or it really didn't help me. I think about four

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Speaker 4: years ago is when I really started looking at what

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Speaker 4: happened and see and I'm working on the self compassion.

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Speaker 4: I think that has been key.

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Speaker 1: I think what you're really talking about is what we

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Speaker 1: call emotional validation. And I think you were really craving

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Speaker 1: that because when you were a girl, you must have

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Speaker 1: wondered at some point is this typical? Or is this

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Speaker 1: my fault? Or is something going on with my parents?

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Speaker 1: And so you didn't get that emotional validation of yes,

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Speaker 1: this is not okay, Yes this is not about you,

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Speaker 1: Yes this is something that's going on with your parents,

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Speaker 1: and so when you just told us the story of

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Speaker 1: your mother had this reaction of where she started hitting

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Speaker 1: your head. I don't know if you saw our faces,

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Speaker 1: but we just empathize so much with the pain of

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Speaker 1: that and the confusion, and also the sense of betrayal

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Speaker 1: that your parents are supposed to be the people who

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Speaker 1: protect you and yet you're afraid of them. And if

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Speaker 1: you don't get the validation, it's hard to know what

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Speaker 1: to do with your own feelings when you have them.

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Speaker 1: So when you said, I'm actually a very emotional person,

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Speaker 1: We're all very emotional people. That's what being human is.

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Speaker 1: You just aren't used to feeling your emotions. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: hear that.

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Speaker 4: I totally hear that.

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Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit. Then, what happens with your sons.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned meltdowns in your letter. Could you give us

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Speaker 3: an example of the kinds of situations that you find

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Speaker 3: yourself in with your sons that you have a hard

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Speaker 3: time dealing with emotionally, that you disconnect.

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Speaker 4: Yesterday, my son came home and he wanted to hop

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Speaker 4: on the computer, and I said, we're going to help

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Speaker 4: mommy for a little bit first. And you know, although

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Speaker 4: I know it's unexpected. He had a complete meltdown. He's twelve,

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Speaker 4: so you wouldn't expect them to lie on the floor crying, screaming.

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Speaker 4: It was extremely loud, and I don't know what happens

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Speaker 4: to me from loudness, but I can't manage like I'm

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Speaker 4: very sensitive to noise. And then the end, I said,

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Speaker 4: you know, like, you have ten seconds to just get

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Speaker 4: yourself to your room because you cannot stay here and

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Speaker 4: scream while I'm cleaning with your other brother. And then

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Speaker 4: I went out on the stroller with the baby and

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Speaker 4: we went for a walk just to get a break

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Speaker 4: from the noise. But I'm not there with him. I'm

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Speaker 4: not there with him in the moment.

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Speaker 1: You said, you have two sons who are on the spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Is that one of the suns?

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Speaker 4: No, it's not. He's probably one of my easier ones.

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Speaker 1: That reminds me a little bit of what happened with

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Speaker 1: your parents, where they would have these very exaggerated reactions

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Speaker 1: to things and you had to sit there and think, well,

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Speaker 1: is this typical? Is this not typical? And I think

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Speaker 1: the same thing with your son. You said, well, he's twelve,

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Speaker 1: so I don't think he should be doing that, but

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Speaker 1: at the same time you're not really sure. I think

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Speaker 1: that's sort of a replication of something that that you've

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Speaker 1: experienced your whole life, which is, how do I know

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Speaker 1: what is typical acceptable?

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Speaker 4: I totally relate to that. That really resonates.

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Speaker 3: The example he gave Melissa is one in which your

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Speaker 3: son had an unusual reaction. I'm curious about what happens

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Speaker 3: in the regular life experiences when the boys feel sad

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Speaker 3: or upset or disappointed or rejected. What happens in moments

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, my six year old might come and say

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Speaker 4: his one year old brother smashes tower, he bolt, and

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Speaker 4: he's really, like, really angry and really upset about it.

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Speaker 4: I don't think I typically will respond with a lot

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Speaker 4: of empathy. I'll say I'm sorry, but I don't really

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Speaker 4: feel it, quite honestly, And you know, I might also

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Speaker 4: shift some other responsibility to him, like you know, your

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Speaker 4: brother's up right now and he can reach it, and

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Speaker 4: maybe he should be doing it on a different surface

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Speaker 4: or in a different room where the door closes, or

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Speaker 4: something like that.

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Speaker 1: What happens inside of you that kind of makes you disengage,

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Speaker 1: Because the response I just heard was very disengaged.

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Speaker 4: I think because there's so much screaming and noise accompanied

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Speaker 4: with it, it's really hard for me to even hear

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Speaker 4: what he needs.

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Speaker 1: But what actually happens in your body? Can you close

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Speaker 1: your eyes for a minute and tell us what happens

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Speaker 1: when you go back and think about that.

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Speaker 4: I think I cringe like at the noise, and I

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Speaker 4: feel like I free somewhat. And I think if the

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Speaker 4: noise level is high enough, I can't even think, like

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Speaker 4: I can't figure out what I need to do. You know.

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Speaker 4: I like if my kids screaming for food and they're

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Speaker 4: hungry right now and I'm trying to get something, I'll

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Speaker 4: open the fridge and not be able to get anything

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Speaker 4: out because I'm not really functioning. I'm not really able

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Speaker 4: to think like what is it I need to do

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Speaker 4: next or to help the child. I'm just more frozen.

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Speaker 3: So the noise really makes a big difference to you.

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Speaker 3: There's a part of you that knows, Yeah, I can

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Speaker 3: spend a second going, oh, I'm sorry, honey, and before

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Speaker 3: you go to but maybe put it on the table

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Speaker 3: because you can reach the younger brother. Is that something

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Speaker 3: that comes to you in hindsight or is that something

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Speaker 3: you recognize even in a moment, but feel frozen because

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Speaker 3: of the noise.

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Speaker 4: I think it's easier in hindsight, but many times it

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Speaker 4: is in a moment but I'm frozen, or because I

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Speaker 4: feel like almost a repulsion to the child, like just

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Speaker 4: get away from me, just go away, leave me alone.

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Speaker 3: Their pain is causing you so much distress when we

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Speaker 3: feel pain, and emotional pain registers in the brain very

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Speaker 3: very similarly to physical pain, and our response to physical

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Speaker 3: pain is often to lash out in anger, and our

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Speaker 3: response to emotional pain can be very similar sometimes. And

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Speaker 3: so I'm assuming that at some of those moments is

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Speaker 3: triggering a lot of pain in you. Is that something

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Speaker 3: that you've realized.

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize, but it sounds true.

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Speaker 3: So then it's about you being able to manage your

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Speaker 3: pain as well as theirs, because that's what keeps getting triggered.

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Speaker 4: I don't think I could do both at the same time.

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Speaker 3: The question is whether you're doing either of them, because

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Speaker 3: it sounds like when you freeze, then you're not dealing

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Speaker 3: with yours or theirs.

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Speaker 4: Correct them not.

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Speaker 1: In response to threats, emotional threats, physical threats, there's fight,

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Speaker 1: flight and freeze. So a lot of people know about

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Speaker 1: fight or flight in an argument, like with a partner,

359
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Speaker 1: for example, but especially with the history of trauma, freeze

360
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Speaker 1: is very common. And I think what you're doing is

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Speaker 1: you're going straight into freeze. And so as guy was saying,

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Speaker 1: it's hard for you when you're frozen to manage your

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Speaker 1: pain or your child's pain, and you're standing in front

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Speaker 1: of the refrigerator with the door bent, unable to move.

365
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Speaker 1: And I think that one of the things that would

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Speaker 1: be really helpful is to understand a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about how in the last four years, since you've had

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Speaker 1: this awakening, you've come to manage your own emotions.

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Speaker 4: That's a big question. I think I do come to

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Speaker 4: myself with a lot more self compassion, more like as

371
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Speaker 4: a friend than as an enemy or a judge. Let's

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Speaker 4: say I goof up, I messed up something, and I

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Speaker 4: just put my friends in there and say, you know,

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Speaker 4: if she messed up, how would I feel? And I

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Speaker 4: would have a lot more compassion. So sometimes that helps

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Speaker 4: I engage in a lot of self soothing practices just

377
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Speaker 4: to help me in general, with hot bath, hot shower, meditate,

378
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Speaker 4: just physical things that I'm doing to calm myself.

379
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Speaker 1: Do you notice in that moment when there's a lot

380
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Speaker 1: of noise that it feels a lot like the noise

381
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Speaker 1: when you were growing up, when you were being yelled at,

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Speaker 1: when your parents were having big reactions to things. Does

383
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Speaker 1: it feel reminiscent of that. Sometimes what kids do in

384
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Speaker 1: that moment is they dissociate. They take themselves somewhere else

385
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Speaker 1: in their minds. And you mentioned in your letter that

386
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Speaker 1: sometimes you dissociate with the kids. Does that feel familiar

387
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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 4: I haven't put the two and two together. It feels

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Speaker 4: more if I had to put a word, like being

390
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Speaker 4: in trouble, like being on the hot seat.

391
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Speaker 3: What's the part that feels like being on the hot seat?

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Speaker 4: I guess when I hear screaming, I feel like I'm

393
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Speaker 4: supposed to do something with it.

394
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Speaker 3: So danger it feels like danger.

395
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Speaker 4: It does feel like danger, yes, Because when your parents.

396
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Speaker 1: Would get very loud, you did feel like you were

397
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Speaker 1: in trouble because they told you that you were the

398
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:26,999
Speaker 1: cause of their pain. Yes, And so every time you

399
00:23:27,079 --> 00:23:31,719
Speaker 1: hear that loudness, you feel like I'm being blamed for

400
00:23:31,839 --> 00:23:34,799
Speaker 1: this other person's pain, even though I'm not quite sure

401
00:23:34,799 --> 00:23:36,079
Speaker 1: that I'm responsible for it.

402
00:23:37,239 --> 00:23:37,559
Speaker 4: Yes.

403
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Speaker 1: And now when your kids come to you and they

404
00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 1: get very loud, like, look what happened. He knocked down

405
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Speaker 1: my tower. Even though he's not blaming you, he's coming

406
00:23:51,319 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: to you because he's really upset. You hear it as

407
00:23:55,319 --> 00:23:58,399
Speaker 1: and you, mom should have done something about this, and you,

408
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Speaker 1: mom should have prevented him from knocking down my tower,

409
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Speaker 1: and you, mom need to take away my anger and

410
00:24:03,839 --> 00:24:07,199
Speaker 1: my pain at this, and you are to blame. I

411
00:24:07,239 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 1: think that's the message that you're hearing from him.

412
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Speaker 4: Yeah, that sounds true.

413
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Speaker 3: When you have these exchanges and you freeze, what happens

414
00:24:17,839 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 3: afterwards when you unfreeze. Do you do any kind of

415
00:24:22,279 --> 00:24:25,679
Speaker 3: repair work with your son about it later on?

416
00:24:26,719 --> 00:24:29,039
Speaker 4: I don't think I do most of the times. Unless

417
00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 4: I like yell at the kid to just go away.

418
00:24:30,919 --> 00:24:33,079
Speaker 4: I might apologize later I'm sorry I yelled at you.

419
00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:34,039
Speaker 4: I shouldn't have done that.

420
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Speaker 3: But you don't go back and say, do you want

421
00:24:38,279 --> 00:24:41,079
Speaker 3: to talk more about how frustrating it is when you're

422
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,479
Speaker 3: building something and your brother comes and ruins it. You

423
00:24:44,519 --> 00:24:46,839
Speaker 3: don't go back and try and talk to them about

424
00:24:46,839 --> 00:24:49,279
Speaker 3: it when they're karmo, When you're karmo, when they're not

425
00:24:49,319 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 3: shouting when.

426
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Speaker 1: You can think, I do not. What do you think

427
00:24:52,639 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: would happen if you did?

428
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Speaker 4: I think they would explode again. I feel like it's

429
00:24:59,639 --> 00:25:01,959
Speaker 4: going to dredge it up again for them and maybe

430
00:25:01,999 --> 00:25:02,279
Speaker 4: for me.

431
00:25:03,839 --> 00:25:07,279
Speaker 3: So the feeling you have is that they will not

432
00:25:07,439 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 3: be able to control their emotions, even if they're calm

433
00:25:10,719 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 3: in the moment, even if it's after the thing actually happened,

434
00:25:13,639 --> 00:25:19,999
Speaker 3: that any discussion of something that's activating or upsetting, they

435
00:25:20,039 --> 00:25:23,119
Speaker 3: will lose control. They will get loud, that you will freeze,

436
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:27,759
Speaker 3: and that whole cycle will happen. Yeah, but if that's

437
00:25:27,839 --> 00:25:31,799
Speaker 3: not entirely true, what if they can talk about it

438
00:25:31,959 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 3: when they're calmer and they're a little more removed and

439
00:25:34,479 --> 00:25:37,719
Speaker 3: have more perspective. Do you think you'd be able to

440
00:25:37,759 --> 00:25:40,519
Speaker 3: have that kind of conversation with them if they were calmer.

441
00:25:40,959 --> 00:25:43,079
Speaker 4: Oh, I think I could. I think I just have

442
00:25:43,279 --> 00:25:46,279
Speaker 4: to be patient, you know, to wait for them to

443
00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,559
Speaker 4: completely calm down, and then to bring it up again.

444
00:25:50,599 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 4: I guess be brave enough to go back into the

445
00:25:52,999 --> 00:25:55,279
Speaker 4: arena because.

446
00:25:54,999 --> 00:25:58,319
Speaker 3: The paradox of it is, and I think this might

447
00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:01,719
Speaker 3: have been your experience too, that when your parent doesn't

448
00:26:02,079 --> 00:26:05,999
Speaker 3: give you that emotional validation. It makes you get louder

449
00:26:06,239 --> 00:26:09,319
Speaker 3: because you're trying to get something from them. They didn't

450
00:26:09,519 --> 00:26:12,039
Speaker 3: hear it apparently the first time. They didn't get it

451
00:26:12,599 --> 00:26:15,279
Speaker 3: the first time. So I think the way things happen

452
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,999
Speaker 3: now with you freezing and then being loud, sets up

453
00:26:18,999 --> 00:26:23,839
Speaker 3: this cycle. When in fact, if you approach them once

454
00:26:23,879 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 3: they were calm and you were calm as well, what

455
00:26:27,479 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 3: you would be pulling out of them would be something

456
00:26:29,719 --> 00:26:33,319
Speaker 3: calmer that in time would help them keep the lid

457
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,519
Speaker 3: perhaps on getting too loud when things happen, because they'd

458
00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 3: have a little bit more of the assurance that Mom

459
00:26:39,239 --> 00:26:42,519
Speaker 3: can hear us even if we're not loud, and especially

460
00:26:42,559 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 3: perhaps if we're not.

461
00:26:44,919 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 4: I think that would be great.

462
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about the

463
00:26:50,439 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: marriage you split up for a year, you got back together.

464
00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: What has it been like since you got back together?

465
00:26:57,679 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: What has changed that has made it work better for

466
00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:04,559
Speaker 1: both of you and particularly in terms of the emotional connection.

467
00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:09,599
Speaker 4: So since we've got back what has changed, I feel

468
00:27:09,679 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 4: is mostly on my part is the way I communicate,

469
00:27:13,239 --> 00:27:15,159
Speaker 4: which means if I need something, I need to take

470
00:27:15,199 --> 00:27:16,919
Speaker 4: a shower now, and I need you to watch the

471
00:27:16,999 --> 00:27:20,279
Speaker 4: children while I take the shower. Before the breakup, I

472
00:27:20,319 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 4: think I would not have been able to say it

473
00:27:22,479 --> 00:27:24,599
Speaker 4: that way. I just would have been I need a shower,

474
00:27:24,599 --> 00:27:26,999
Speaker 4: and he'd say later and then forget later, and I

475
00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:29,159
Speaker 4: would just explode that I need a shower at some point.

476
00:27:29,479 --> 00:27:31,959
Speaker 4: So I think being able just to verbalize what I

477
00:27:31,999 --> 00:27:36,519
Speaker 4: need and just managing expectations on my part, expecting my

478
00:27:36,639 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 4: husband to come with a whole boatload of empathy isn't

479
00:27:40,719 --> 00:27:44,079
Speaker 4: really realistic, and part of it really isn't. Again, he

480
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,919
Speaker 4: had no modeling, you know as well. For that, I

481
00:27:46,999 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 4: feel like I am happier, but not because he's, you know,

482
00:27:50,479 --> 00:27:53,599
Speaker 4: stepping up I meeting my needs. It's because I'm stepping

483
00:27:53,679 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 4: up at meeting my needs. I'm getting much better at

484
00:27:57,679 --> 00:28:01,239
Speaker 4: self care, taking a lot of time for myself because

485
00:28:01,319 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 4: I need a lot of quiet time just to be

486
00:28:03,279 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 4: by myself.

487
00:28:05,239 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 3: About that, By the way, how much are the five

488
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 3: guys in the house aware that noise is really difficult

489
00:28:14,439 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 3: for mum? Your husband? Is he clear about it or not?

490
00:28:20,199 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 4: I think he is aware that it bothers me, but.

491
00:28:22,959 --> 00:28:26,599
Speaker 3: That's putting it way too mildly. Because it bothers you

492
00:28:26,759 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 3: means it's a little annoying, but you can manage. It

493
00:28:29,399 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 3: makes you freeze, it really activates you. It triggers you.

494
00:28:33,159 --> 00:28:35,919
Speaker 3: And I'm wondering if he's clear enough about the fact

495
00:28:35,919 --> 00:28:40,599
Speaker 3: that he could be useful by paying attention to the

496
00:28:40,639 --> 00:28:43,959
Speaker 3: noise level in the house and stepping in, and that

497
00:28:43,959 --> 00:28:47,639
Speaker 3: that would be a very helpful duty as a co

498
00:28:47,839 --> 00:28:49,999
Speaker 3: parent and as a husband on his part. Do you

499
00:28:49,999 --> 00:28:52,319
Speaker 3: think he's clear enough that he can actually add value

500
00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:54,399
Speaker 3: there more than he might be at the moment.

501
00:28:55,119 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 4: I think I'd have to verbalize it and express it

502
00:28:58,239 --> 00:29:01,159
Speaker 4: in that way that I really need him to step

503
00:29:01,239 --> 00:29:04,279
Speaker 4: up and help me with that. I find sometimes when

504
00:29:04,319 --> 00:29:07,799
Speaker 4: I do express my overwhelm, he can get judgmental about it.

505
00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:11,239
Speaker 1: What does that look like, Well.

506
00:29:10,959 --> 00:29:14,479
Speaker 4: He'll tell me that it's not normal, that other people

507
00:29:14,519 --> 00:29:18,519
Speaker 4: aren't like that, or I really should get help for

508
00:29:18,639 --> 00:29:22,079
Speaker 4: that to deal with it a little better. It's not empathy.

509
00:29:23,039 --> 00:29:26,999
Speaker 3: I find that when somebody has a sensitivity that one

510
00:29:26,999 --> 00:29:29,879
Speaker 3: of the best responses you can have when somebody says, well,

511
00:29:29,879 --> 00:29:32,759
Speaker 3: you're sensitive, is to say, yes, I am. I have

512
00:29:32,839 --> 00:29:36,999
Speaker 3: a sensitivity. That's why I'm asking for your help to

513
00:29:37,079 --> 00:29:40,679
Speaker 3: kind of own the sensitivity rather than have to apologize

514
00:29:40,719 --> 00:29:43,239
Speaker 3: for it or feel that it's something that you need

515
00:29:43,279 --> 00:29:43,639
Speaker 3: to fix.

516
00:29:44,279 --> 00:29:47,519
Speaker 4: I do own it, and I am very honest about

517
00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:51,079
Speaker 4: being sensitive to many things. I do find that a

518
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:54,759
Speaker 4: turns judgmental where it's like, this is your issue, you

519
00:29:54,799 --> 00:29:55,959
Speaker 4: need to get help for that.

520
00:29:56,519 --> 00:30:00,719
Speaker 1: When you say that he's framing this as your issue.

521
00:30:02,199 --> 00:30:04,199
Speaker 1: Did the two of you when you split up go

522
00:30:04,319 --> 00:30:08,639
Speaker 1: to couple's therapy together. I'm a little bit unclear about

523
00:30:08,959 --> 00:30:13,359
Speaker 1: who initiated the split up, what caused it, and then

524
00:30:14,119 --> 00:30:15,959
Speaker 1: what did the two of you do to try to

525
00:30:16,239 --> 00:30:18,879
Speaker 1: make things different so that you could come back together.

526
00:30:19,479 --> 00:30:24,479
Speaker 4: Okay, so before the split up, we saw many marriage counselors.

527
00:30:24,999 --> 00:30:27,479
Speaker 4: Many of the times my husband would stop after four

528
00:30:27,519 --> 00:30:29,439
Speaker 4: six sessions and say, you know, and now I know

529
00:30:29,479 --> 00:30:31,279
Speaker 4: what I'm supposed to do, so I just need to

530
00:30:31,279 --> 00:30:33,679
Speaker 4: do it until then there's no point in continuing.

531
00:30:34,279 --> 00:30:36,759
Speaker 1: Was it your idea to go to counseling?

532
00:30:37,119 --> 00:30:38,599
Speaker 4: I absolutely pushed it.

533
00:30:38,479 --> 00:30:38,919
Speaker 1: It was.

534
00:30:39,159 --> 00:30:41,239
Speaker 4: You know, it was pretty much a thread over his

535
00:30:41,319 --> 00:30:44,759
Speaker 4: head many times where he'd start, stop, start, stop, in

536
00:30:44,799 --> 00:30:48,279
Speaker 4: and out all the time, but never voluntarily saying, hey,

537
00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 4: maybe we should get some help. So what I did

538
00:30:51,479 --> 00:30:55,599
Speaker 4: find helpful was during the split up, somebody had recommended

539
00:30:55,639 --> 00:31:00,879
Speaker 4: a marriage coach, and it was very different from counseling,

540
00:31:01,079 --> 00:31:05,279
Speaker 4: but it definitely was counseling. We worked with that person

541
00:31:05,359 --> 00:31:09,879
Speaker 4: for maybe a year, just over a year, and she

542
00:31:10,119 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 4: was incredible and skilled, and she was the one that

543
00:31:13,279 --> 00:31:15,559
Speaker 4: helped me wake up to my emotions.

544
00:31:16,159 --> 00:31:18,959
Speaker 1: What happened between you and your husband during that time

545
00:31:19,119 --> 00:31:21,639
Speaker 1: in terms of getting closer? What did he learn about

546
00:31:21,679 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 1: you and what did you learn about him?

547
00:31:24,839 --> 00:31:27,999
Speaker 4: I learned to be more vulnerable to him, to let

548
00:31:28,079 --> 00:31:30,999
Speaker 4: him have space to be there for me as a husband.

549
00:31:31,559 --> 00:31:34,559
Speaker 4: I think he did step up to the plate to

550
00:31:34,639 --> 00:31:38,039
Speaker 4: a certain extent, maybe not as much as I would

551
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:41,959
Speaker 4: have liked. I do think him moving back was premature.

552
00:31:42,999 --> 00:31:45,479
Speaker 4: I felt like I was pressured into it and I

553
00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:49,799
Speaker 4: wasn't ready by him. I was pressured by him and

554
00:31:49,919 --> 00:31:51,519
Speaker 4: a little bit by the marriage coach.

555
00:31:52,879 --> 00:31:55,679
Speaker 1: Did your husband want to move back because he expressed

556
00:31:55,759 --> 00:31:58,399
Speaker 1: missing you?

557
00:31:58,439 --> 00:32:01,319
Speaker 4: No, he wanted to move back for other reasons. I

558
00:32:01,359 --> 00:32:05,039
Speaker 4: think he was very shamed at a separation, I guess,

559
00:32:05,199 --> 00:32:07,879
Speaker 4: and you know, the circles where he's from, divorce is

560
00:32:07,999 --> 00:32:12,559
Speaker 4: very frowned upon. He's from a country that just doesn't

561
00:32:12,599 --> 00:32:16,959
Speaker 4: support that kind of stuff. I think he felt maybe

562
00:32:17,239 --> 00:32:20,159
Speaker 4: like a failure, he felt rejected. There were many things

563
00:32:20,159 --> 00:32:20,919
Speaker 4: he was feeling.

564
00:32:21,679 --> 00:32:24,879
Speaker 1: You say you'd think he felt, meaning, you're guessing or

565
00:32:25,199 --> 00:32:27,359
Speaker 1: he was able to articulate those to you.

566
00:32:29,519 --> 00:32:32,279
Speaker 4: He was able to articulate, maybe not directly, like he

567
00:32:32,319 --> 00:32:34,399
Speaker 4: was saying I was always afraid I'd get married one

568
00:32:34,439 --> 00:32:36,319
Speaker 4: day and it would never work out, or things like

569
00:32:36,359 --> 00:32:38,399
Speaker 4: that where I could kind of guess that he was

570
00:32:38,959 --> 00:32:39,839
Speaker 4: fearing rejection.

571
00:32:42,439 --> 00:32:47,599
Speaker 1: But he never said I miss you.

572
00:32:47,599 --> 00:32:50,319
Speaker 4: You know what he said, I miss you. But again,

573
00:32:52,239 --> 00:32:56,799
Speaker 4: with people in the spectrum, there's usually no voice, fluctuation,

574
00:32:57,599 --> 00:33:01,079
Speaker 4: or feeling behind it. He may have meant it. I'm

575
00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:02,519
Speaker 4: not saying I felt it.

576
00:33:03,719 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 1: I just want to say one thing about people on

577
00:33:05,759 --> 00:33:09,519
Speaker 1: the spectrum that I think there's this misconception that they

578
00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:15,039
Speaker 1: don't feel, and they absolutely feel, and maybe they don't

579
00:33:15,079 --> 00:33:18,839
Speaker 1: express it well, and that is their challenge. So when

580
00:33:18,839 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 1: you say there was no emotion in his voice when

581
00:33:20,759 --> 00:33:24,359
Speaker 1: he said I miss you, that does not mean that

582
00:33:24,439 --> 00:33:27,319
Speaker 1: he did not miss you. It means it might have

583
00:33:27,399 --> 00:33:31,639
Speaker 1: sounded a bit mechanical or robotic in terms of the tone.

584
00:33:33,079 --> 00:33:36,519
Speaker 1: But I think that you are very invested in this

585
00:33:36,679 --> 00:33:40,799
Speaker 1: idea that because he's on the spectrum that he doesn't

586
00:33:40,799 --> 00:33:45,599
Speaker 1: have feelings, and that just not true. He has feelings,

587
00:33:45,639 --> 00:33:49,039
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what to do with them or how

588
00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:51,159
Speaker 1: to articulate them. And I think that you too, actually

589
00:33:51,159 --> 00:33:55,919
Speaker 1: have more in common than you realize. And the way

590
00:33:55,959 --> 00:33:59,279
Speaker 1: that this has been portrayed in your marriage, especially since

591
00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:02,119
Speaker 1: the emotional awakening, has been that you're the one who

592
00:34:02,119 --> 00:34:04,119
Speaker 1: knows how to feel and he doesn't know how to feel.

593
00:34:05,999 --> 00:34:08,519
Speaker 1: And I think that it's something to consider that he

594
00:34:08,599 --> 00:34:10,999
Speaker 1: does know how to feel, but like you, he doesn't

595
00:34:11,039 --> 00:34:13,079
Speaker 1: know how to express it. And I think that there's

596
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:15,999
Speaker 1: no coincidence that the two of you ended up together

597
00:34:16,479 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 1: in the first place.

598
00:34:20,279 --> 00:34:24,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree with you that one. I think it

599
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 4: was also I was questioning where he was coming from.

600
00:34:29,119 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 4: So although he may say, you know, I miss you,

601
00:34:31,999 --> 00:34:33,999
Speaker 4: it may be like, hey, I'm not going to have

602
00:34:34,039 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 4: a place to live next month, like I really need

603
00:34:36,399 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 4: to move in. I was unsure as to which one

604
00:34:39,519 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 4: it was that was pushing him saying I miss you.

605
00:34:42,919 --> 00:34:45,519
Speaker 1: Right, And it could be lots of things like the

606
00:34:45,559 --> 00:34:49,159
Speaker 1: logistical piece as well as the emotional piece. But do

607
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:50,559
Speaker 1: you notice that you didn't.

608
00:34:50,279 --> 00:34:55,159
Speaker 4: Ask no, I didn't ask, I judged.

609
00:34:56,279 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 1: Right, and both of you do that to each other.

610
00:34:59,479 --> 00:34:59,839
Speaker 4: Yes.

611
00:35:02,879 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 3: Another thing to keep in mind with people on the

612
00:35:05,479 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 3: spectrum is that they often can miss emotional cues, and

613
00:35:11,519 --> 00:35:15,399
Speaker 3: so you're smiling tell me about that.

614
00:35:16,399 --> 00:35:21,599
Speaker 4: Yes, they definitely will miss the emotional cues, social cues,

615
00:35:21,679 --> 00:35:23,479
Speaker 4: physical cues, every cue that.

616
00:35:24,759 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I take it from that that you've put a

617
00:35:26,799 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 3: lot of cues out there and many of them did

618
00:35:29,359 --> 00:35:32,039
Speaker 3: not come back. And when they miss them again, another

619
00:35:32,079 --> 00:35:35,199
Speaker 3: misconceptionist that they ignore them. But to ignore something, it

620
00:35:35,199 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 3: has to show up on your radar. And often what

621
00:35:38,319 --> 00:35:40,959
Speaker 3: happens is it doesn't show up on the radar. So

622
00:35:41,039 --> 00:35:45,679
Speaker 3: it's not ignoring, it's literally missing, not seeing. And I'm

623
00:35:45,759 --> 00:35:47,519
Speaker 3: glad you know that. I mean you know that enough

624
00:35:47,519 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 3: to smile at it. So I'm glad you know that,

625
00:35:49,359 --> 00:35:53,519
Speaker 3: because otherwise you can equally misjudge their lack of response

626
00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 3: is not caring when that's not the case. It might

627
00:35:56,399 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 3: be caring.

628
00:35:57,639 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: He's so frustrated by the way that noise triggers you

629
00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:03,199
Speaker 1: because it doesn't trigger him in the same way, and

630
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,199
Speaker 1: you're so frustrated that he can't read these cues because

631
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,199
Speaker 1: you can read them very easily. And I think that

632
00:36:09,479 --> 00:36:11,599
Speaker 1: the reason that we're talking about your marriage, even though

633
00:36:11,599 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 1: you wrote about your children, is that what the two

634
00:36:16,279 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 1: of you do in practice together will help you so

635
00:36:19,639 --> 00:36:22,199
Speaker 1: much with what you do and what you practice with

636
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:22,839
Speaker 1: your children.

637
00:36:23,639 --> 00:36:27,999
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sure there are opportunities where your husband passes

638
00:36:28,039 --> 00:36:31,079
Speaker 3: by just as the baby is knocking down the tower

639
00:36:31,119 --> 00:36:33,999
Speaker 3: of the six year old or whatever the comparable situation

640
00:36:34,039 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 3: would be with any of the other boys, and he's

641
00:36:36,359 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 3: actually the first parent on the scene. Does he just

642
00:36:40,479 --> 00:36:43,559
Speaker 3: keep walking? Does he intervene? What are his parenting efforts

643
00:36:43,599 --> 00:36:44,599
Speaker 3: with the boys?

644
00:36:44,839 --> 00:36:46,959
Speaker 4: I don't think he's an effective parent in terms of

645
00:36:47,039 --> 00:36:49,119
Speaker 4: stopping it. He might say, well, it's a baby, so

646
00:36:49,319 --> 00:36:51,639
Speaker 4: just let him smash it down. He might push his

647
00:36:51,679 --> 00:36:54,599
Speaker 4: brother over, and then he'll start yelling at the big

648
00:36:54,639 --> 00:36:59,679
Speaker 4: brother for pushing his baby brother. So I find that

649
00:36:59,999 --> 00:37:03,119
Speaker 4: when he gets involved, I have a lot more damage

650
00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:06,639
Speaker 4: to have to restore than just had he not got

651
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 4: involved at all.

652
00:37:09,639 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 3: Okay, but again there's a bit of a similarity there

653
00:37:12,439 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 3: because you had the response of, like, here's what you

654
00:37:14,799 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 3: could have done differently rather than contain and validate the

655
00:37:19,799 --> 00:37:23,679
Speaker 3: frustration of the six year old. But since the boys

656
00:37:23,879 --> 00:37:27,519
Speaker 3: haven't been getting the emotional validation from either of you.

657
00:37:29,599 --> 00:37:31,639
Speaker 3: Is it something you would be able to have a

658
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,519
Speaker 3: conversation with your husband about that you might have to

659
00:37:35,559 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 3: work together as a team so that you at least

660
00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 3: are able to do a little bit more of the

661
00:37:43,399 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 3: emotional validation, because I think that if you had his support,

662
00:37:48,119 --> 00:37:50,679
Speaker 3: either in saying to the kids, hey, hey, keep it down,

663
00:37:50,799 --> 00:37:54,959
Speaker 3: lower your voices, or even just being there and standing

664
00:37:55,039 --> 00:37:57,559
Speaker 3: next to you. Often what happens when there are two

665
00:37:57,639 --> 00:37:59,519
Speaker 3: parents in the home If one of them is trying

666
00:37:59,519 --> 00:38:03,079
Speaker 3: to manage a situation and the other just comes and

667
00:38:03,119 --> 00:38:05,999
Speaker 3: stands next to them, doesn't say a word, it really

668
00:38:06,279 --> 00:38:09,119
Speaker 3: feels to the kids like you're operating as a team,

669
00:38:09,679 --> 00:38:12,479
Speaker 3: and it could feel to you like he's being supportive.

670
00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:17,199
Speaker 3: But I'm wondering if his presence might help you unfreeze

671
00:38:17,479 --> 00:38:20,199
Speaker 3: in those moments or help the kids bring it down

672
00:38:20,799 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 3: in terms of volume by a notch so you can

673
00:38:23,399 --> 00:38:26,639
Speaker 3: then use some of the skills that you've been practicing

674
00:38:26,919 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 3: to respond in a more empathetic and validating way.

675
00:38:32,319 --> 00:38:34,999
Speaker 4: I love that idea of just his presence being there,

676
00:38:35,799 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 4: because I think that's something he can do and like

677
00:38:38,439 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 4: not screw up I.

678
00:38:39,759 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 1: Just want to also just have you notice your language,

679
00:38:41,959 --> 00:38:43,399
Speaker 1: and you said, I think that's something he can do

680
00:38:43,439 --> 00:38:48,639
Speaker 1: and not screw up. There's judgment in that, right, and

681
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: I'm sure that he picks up on that. And when

682
00:38:53,439 --> 00:38:56,559
Speaker 1: Guy was talking about presence and having his presence there

683
00:38:56,599 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: and how that might be more containing for the children

684
00:38:59,439 --> 00:39:03,999
Speaker 1: to see their parents as a team, I wonder if

685
00:39:03,999 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: his presence is also comforting to you, not in terms

686
00:39:06,759 --> 00:39:10,479
Speaker 1: of in front of the kids, but you did decide

687
00:39:10,759 --> 00:39:16,319
Speaker 1: to marry him, even after the emotional awakening, You decided

688
00:39:16,359 --> 00:39:20,519
Speaker 1: you wanted to stay married to him. In what ways

689
00:39:21,039 --> 00:39:23,639
Speaker 1: is his presence comforting to you? Tell us about the

690
00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 1: positive parts of this marriage.

691
00:39:26,679 --> 00:39:33,639
Speaker 4: That's a hard question to answer. I think I'm disassociating, Melissa.

692
00:39:33,679 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 3: I think part of why you might be dissociating is

693
00:39:37,799 --> 00:39:42,039
Speaker 3: because what feels really difficult for you in this moment

694
00:39:42,839 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 3: is to contemplate feeling close to him. The question was

695
00:39:46,799 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 3: about what is good in the marriage, and that evokes

696
00:39:51,479 --> 00:39:56,559
Speaker 3: emotional closeness, and I think that that's something that you're

697
00:39:56,639 --> 00:40:01,479
Speaker 3: still struggling with. That the idea of the emotional closeness

698
00:40:01,639 --> 00:40:05,999
Speaker 3: is what makes you very anxious and therefore kind of

699
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 3: dissociate and separate yourself from that strong emotion. And I'm

700
00:40:12,319 --> 00:40:16,679
Speaker 3: wondering who in your life do you feel closest to emotionally.

701
00:40:17,199 --> 00:40:21,479
Speaker 4: I have the closest bond with a friend. She does

702
00:40:21,519 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 4: not live in my state. I run a support group

703
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 4: for women with men on the spectrum and she is

704
00:40:31,559 --> 00:40:35,039
Speaker 4: part of it, and we became close to friends through that.

705
00:40:36,679 --> 00:40:38,679
Speaker 3: You're the one that's running the support group, and you

706
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,039
Speaker 3: get close to the person who's in the support group.

707
00:40:42,959 --> 00:40:45,679
Speaker 3: So you can get close to someone because the situation

708
00:40:45,879 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 3: almost forces the emotional connection. Because you're running the support group,

709
00:40:50,479 --> 00:40:53,519
Speaker 3: it's your job to be open to the people in

710
00:40:53,559 --> 00:40:57,159
Speaker 3: the group. But I think that it might be very

711
00:40:57,159 --> 00:41:01,479
Speaker 3: hard for you outside of those very specific contexts to

712
00:41:01,759 --> 00:41:04,519
Speaker 3: get close. And that's part of the trauma work that

713
00:41:04,559 --> 00:41:08,839
Speaker 3: you referred to, that there's probably some more work to

714
00:41:08,879 --> 00:41:10,039
Speaker 3: be done.

715
00:41:10,279 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

716
00:41:11,319 --> 00:41:15,159
Speaker 5: I do fear closeness, yes, And that's part of what's

717
00:41:15,159 --> 00:41:17,959
Speaker 5: happening with the boys. I think that to be there

718
00:41:17,999 --> 00:41:21,679
Speaker 5: for them, to contain them, even in that minor frustration

719
00:41:21,839 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 5: of the tower being broken, is to love them in

720
00:41:25,319 --> 00:41:30,439
Speaker 5: a deep connective way that might feel threatening in an

721
00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:34,639
Speaker 5: unconscious way because your history is that loving family can

722
00:41:34,679 --> 00:41:37,999
Speaker 5: still be very scary. Because the thing that stood out

723
00:41:37,999 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 5: for me about your description of your mum in that

724
00:41:39,959 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 5: scenario was she hit you from behind. It was unexpected,

725
00:41:43,399 --> 00:41:46,559
Speaker 5: it was as you were walking away. That's really difficult

726
00:41:46,599 --> 00:41:48,439
Speaker 5: because when you grow up like that, you really don't

727
00:41:48,439 --> 00:41:51,359
Speaker 5: know when it's coming if it's from behind. And I

728
00:41:51,399 --> 00:41:54,479
Speaker 5: think there's still work to be done there so that

729
00:41:54,519 --> 00:41:57,479
Speaker 5: you can try and move past some of that trauma

730
00:41:57,599 --> 00:42:00,999
Speaker 5: and that fear that gets triggered, because I think it's

731
00:42:00,999 --> 00:42:04,079
Speaker 5: still operating now in the sense that it's keeping you

732
00:42:04,999 --> 00:42:09,599
Speaker 5: from allowing yourself to get too close even to your chin,

733
00:42:09,919 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 5: to your husband, to people that you really actually do

734
00:42:13,959 --> 00:42:14,479
Speaker 5: care about.

735
00:42:15,079 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 4: What you're saying resonates. I'm like feeling hot, so I

736
00:42:18,399 --> 00:42:19,039
Speaker 4: know it's true.

737
00:42:20,839 --> 00:42:23,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you say you know it's true, does that

738
00:42:23,679 --> 00:42:25,879
Speaker 1: mean that you think there might be other feelings about

739
00:42:25,879 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: your husband that when you stood up there at your

740
00:42:29,399 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: wedding and you said, I'm going to marry this person,

741
00:42:34,919 --> 00:42:38,039
Speaker 1: did you feel like, yeah, he's okay, or were you

742
00:42:38,159 --> 00:42:40,639
Speaker 1: excited on some level to marry him even if you

743
00:42:40,679 --> 00:42:41,679
Speaker 1: were also terrified.

744
00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:45,719
Speaker 4: I think part of me was excited on some level.

745
00:42:46,839 --> 00:42:50,559
Speaker 4: I think with a distance, then I've lost a lot

746
00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:54,999
Speaker 4: of respect, and it's possible that respect keeps that distance.

747
00:42:54,599 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 3: For me that but also you keep the distance from him.

748
00:43:00,839 --> 00:43:01,159
Speaker 4: I do.

749
00:43:07,039 --> 00:43:10,199
Speaker 3: So, Melissa, we have some advice for you, and it's

750
00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:12,959
Speaker 3: in two parts. The first part is about the kids.

751
00:43:14,119 --> 00:43:16,039
Speaker 3: We believe that you've been doing a lot of work

752
00:43:16,479 --> 00:43:22,519
Speaker 3: on trying to become more emotionally literate in terms naming feelings,

753
00:43:23,119 --> 00:43:25,919
Speaker 3: and we know that you really want to connect more

754
00:43:26,279 --> 00:43:29,559
Speaker 3: with your kids. We do understand that in the moment,

755
00:43:29,879 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 3: when they're shouting or crying and it's loud, it is

756
00:43:32,959 --> 00:43:36,559
Speaker 3: going to be very difficult to do that fight flight

757
00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 3: or freeze response is really big. Then it is hard

758
00:43:40,359 --> 00:43:43,199
Speaker 3: to do something about in the moment. But you don't

759
00:43:43,279 --> 00:43:45,319
Speaker 3: have to do it in a moment. If you're frozen,

760
00:43:45,839 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 3: you can do it shortly after, once everyone is a

761
00:43:48,839 --> 00:43:51,599
Speaker 3: little calmer. You included. So what would like you to

762
00:43:51,639 --> 00:43:56,159
Speaker 3: do this week is to find opportunities that one of

763
00:43:56,199 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 3: the kids is upset about something and you freeze up,

764
00:44:00,279 --> 00:44:03,119
Speaker 3: and after that happens, we would like you to go

765
00:44:03,399 --> 00:44:04,959
Speaker 3: to that child. And we're just going to use as

766
00:44:04,959 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 3: an example the tower being toppled over by the baby.

767
00:44:09,479 --> 00:44:11,519
Speaker 3: After that happens, you can go to your six year

768
00:44:11,519 --> 00:44:17,399
Speaker 3: old and do the emotional validation that is, help him

769
00:44:17,839 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 3: name the feeling, because you have the names now, And

770
00:44:20,759 --> 00:44:23,039
Speaker 3: the simple way to do that is to say to

771
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 3: him something like, I know that when you're working on

772
00:44:26,279 --> 00:44:29,519
Speaker 3: a tower and you've been putting effort into it and

773
00:44:29,599 --> 00:44:32,599
Speaker 3: you're building it, and when your brother comes and topples

774
00:44:32,599 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 3: it over, that can be really frustrating and you can

775
00:44:36,399 --> 00:44:39,919
Speaker 3: be really angry. I understand that, and it's okay that

776
00:44:39,959 --> 00:44:44,959
Speaker 3: you feel that way. Just that piece of emotional validation.

777
00:44:45,079 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: Now.

778
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 3: Your concern in the past has been that if you

779
00:44:47,399 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 3: say something about his feelings he's feeling angry or he's

780
00:44:50,279 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 3: feeling frustrated, it will activate him again. Then he'll feel

781
00:44:53,839 --> 00:44:56,479
Speaker 3: angry and frustrated again, and then start chatting again, and

782
00:44:56,519 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 3: back to frozen you go. However, emotional validation is really

783
00:45:01,759 --> 00:45:06,119
Speaker 3: paradoxical in its impact, because while it seems that by

784
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 3: bringing up the very emotion that upset him you'll be

785
00:45:09,359 --> 00:45:12,639
Speaker 3: igniting the flame again, you will actually be dousing it.

786
00:45:13,359 --> 00:45:19,079
Speaker 3: We respond by calming when somebody really names that feeling.

787
00:45:19,359 --> 00:45:21,999
Speaker 3: We have the same way. You get an insight when

788
00:45:22,039 --> 00:45:23,879
Speaker 3: you are I found the feeling in the book, you

789
00:45:23,959 --> 00:45:27,679
Speaker 3: go ah, and there's a ease, there's an exhale that

790
00:45:27,799 --> 00:45:31,359
Speaker 3: comes when that happens. That's what you can give each

791
00:45:31,399 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 3: of the kids by doing this with them, by giving

792
00:45:34,359 --> 00:45:36,999
Speaker 3: them the names so that they can name their feelings

793
00:45:36,999 --> 00:45:39,039
Speaker 3: and learn to do it much younger than you did,

794
00:45:39,639 --> 00:45:43,159
Speaker 3: and that will be a great gift that you can

795
00:45:43,159 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 3: give them. And you can do it after the fact

796
00:45:45,879 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 3: when you're calm, when they're calm. So this week, we'd

797
00:45:48,959 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 3: like you to find opportunities to do that. That's the

798
00:45:52,319 --> 00:45:53,559
Speaker 3: first part of the advice.

799
00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:54,479
Speaker 4: Okay.

800
00:45:55,199 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 1: Part two is that we want to help you think

801
00:45:57,759 --> 00:46:00,679
Speaker 1: a little bit differently about that story that you have

802
00:46:00,799 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: about you and your husband. The story that you have

803
00:46:03,919 --> 00:46:08,559
Speaker 1: is that your husband is not capable of feeling emotions

804
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 1: or responding to you in a way that will be

805
00:46:10,439 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: emotionally satisfying. And we think that the part of that

806
00:46:15,879 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: story that you're leaving out is that you have trouble

807
00:46:20,399 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 1: doing the same thing with him.

808
00:46:22,599 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 3: Now.

809
00:46:22,879 --> 00:46:26,079
Speaker 1: The reasons might be different, but both of you judge

810
00:46:26,119 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: the other person for the things that you're not getting

811
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: from one another, and both of you think that it's

812
00:46:32,319 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: the other person's fault, and so what we'd like you

813
00:46:35,439 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: to do to help maybe edit that story a little

814
00:46:38,759 --> 00:46:44,159
Speaker 1: bit and see if a truer story emerges, is that

815
00:46:44,839 --> 00:46:47,679
Speaker 1: we'd like to see you hold up your end of

816
00:46:47,679 --> 00:46:51,119
Speaker 1: what you would like to happen in that marriage, which

817
00:46:51,159 --> 00:46:54,039
Speaker 1: is do you ever take his hand? Do you ever

818
00:46:54,079 --> 00:46:57,999
Speaker 1: show affection toward him? For example, in that time when

819
00:46:58,079 --> 00:46:59,879
Speaker 1: he said that he wanted to come back and he

820
00:46:59,959 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 1: said I miss you, you made an assumption about why

821
00:47:03,319 --> 00:47:05,959
Speaker 1: he wanted to come back, but you didn't actually say

822
00:47:05,999 --> 00:47:08,959
Speaker 1: to him, Hey, I'm really curious to learn more about

823
00:47:08,999 --> 00:47:12,679
Speaker 1: what you mean by you miss me. So you didn't

824
00:47:12,679 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 1: give him the opportunity to tell you something that would

825
00:47:15,399 --> 00:47:16,599
Speaker 1: have been important for you to.

826
00:47:16,519 --> 00:47:19,679
Speaker 3: Know, like what is it you miss.

827
00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:21,159
Speaker 1: And I don't think that you were able to let

828
00:47:21,159 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: yourself acknowledge what you missed about him, because I think

829
00:47:26,439 --> 00:47:31,199
Speaker 1: there's a reason that you decided to re engage in

830
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 1: the marriage that went beyond logistics or guilt or pressure.

831
00:47:35,359 --> 00:47:37,679
Speaker 1: And you're nodding, so we can see that that's there.

832
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: So what would like you to do this week with

833
00:47:40,839 --> 00:47:44,559
Speaker 1: your husband is to respond to him without the judgment

834
00:47:44,839 --> 00:47:49,039
Speaker 1: and the very rigid story that you have about his

835
00:47:49,199 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: ability to be emotionally connected and to really consider your

836
00:47:54,319 --> 00:47:59,559
Speaker 1: own challenges with emotional connection and to give in the

837
00:47:59,639 --> 00:48:03,559
Speaker 1: marriage what you would like. You know, when we asked about,

838
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 1: you know, the social cues that he misreads, you said,

839
00:48:06,279 --> 00:48:10,119
Speaker 1: you know globally he misreads every single social cue? Does

840
00:48:10,159 --> 00:48:12,599
Speaker 1: he you know, if he took his hand, what would

841
00:48:12,599 --> 00:48:15,639
Speaker 1: he do with that? Are you aware of his sensitivities

842
00:48:15,639 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: in the way that you're asking him to be aware

843
00:48:17,399 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: of yours? And we want to see if you notice

844
00:48:20,759 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: a difference in your own level of satisfaction this week?

845
00:48:24,319 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: Do you feel a little bit better? Do you feel

846
00:48:26,879 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 1: a tiny bit more connected if you do something that

847
00:48:30,999 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 1: addresses your part in what's not working in terms of

848
00:48:34,919 --> 00:48:37,679
Speaker 1: the connection in the marriage, and will that somehow influence

849
00:48:37,759 --> 00:48:42,479
Speaker 1: him to feel more free to engage with you.

850
00:48:42,879 --> 00:48:45,679
Speaker 4: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of

851
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,079
Speaker 4: saying he loves me, like I have a hard time

852
00:48:48,119 --> 00:48:49,119
Speaker 4: saying I love you back.

853
00:48:50,319 --> 00:48:52,879
Speaker 3: Do you have a hard time accepting that he does?

854
00:48:54,839 --> 00:48:57,119
Speaker 4: I think for me, I don't know if it's sincere

855
00:48:57,199 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 4: or not.

856
00:48:59,599 --> 00:49:01,119
Speaker 3: How do you respond when he says it?

857
00:49:02,799 --> 00:49:04,079
Speaker 4: I usually shrug it off.

858
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:08,479
Speaker 3: What if the next time he said I love you.

859
00:49:08,479 --> 00:49:10,879
Speaker 3: You said it means a lot to me when you

860
00:49:10,879 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 3: say it.

861
00:49:13,359 --> 00:49:14,039
Speaker 4: I could try that.

862
00:49:15,599 --> 00:49:18,039
Speaker 3: What will happen if you do is it will connect

863
00:49:18,079 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 3: to you a little bit, to your feelings, so you

864
00:49:20,839 --> 00:49:26,359
Speaker 3: might freeze or disassociate. But if you have trouble saying

865
00:49:26,399 --> 00:49:28,519
Speaker 3: it with words, you can just walk up to him

866
00:49:28,519 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 3: and rub his shoulder or his back to let him

867
00:49:31,399 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 3: know in a gesture that you heard and you appreciate it.

868
00:49:34,439 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 3: If you find it, you're freezing.

869
00:49:37,639 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 4: Okay, So that's like a plan.

870
00:49:42,199 --> 00:49:44,439
Speaker 1: Can you tell us any other examples of how he

871
00:49:44,559 --> 00:49:46,519
Speaker 1: comes to you besides saying I love you.

872
00:49:48,079 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 4: Sometimes he'll buy flowers. He will leave it in a

873
00:49:52,319 --> 00:49:57,159
Speaker 4: bah somewhere, or sometimes he'll buy chocolate and just leave it.

874
00:49:58,679 --> 00:50:01,079
Speaker 4: I don't usually receive it well because I feel like

875
00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:03,039
Speaker 4: I need words to go with it and not just

876
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 4: left around. Like I saw a bag of chocolate, so

877
00:50:06,399 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 4: you know, I put it in the grocery shelf because

878
00:50:08,399 --> 00:50:09,679
Speaker 4: I didn't realize there were for me.

879
00:50:10,759 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 3: Well, the flowers. You can't mistake the flowers. I can't

880
00:50:13,879 --> 00:50:17,079
Speaker 3: so the flowers. And when you get the flowers, what

881
00:50:17,119 --> 00:50:19,039
Speaker 3: we're suggesting is that you go up to him and say,

882
00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:22,079
Speaker 3: I found the flowers. That is so sweet, thank you

883
00:50:22,119 --> 00:50:22,559
Speaker 3: so much.

884
00:50:23,199 --> 00:50:23,919
Speaker 6: I do.

885
00:50:24,479 --> 00:50:26,479
Speaker 4: I tell them again, I say, you know, it's so

886
00:50:26,599 --> 00:50:29,679
Speaker 4: thoughtful what you did. But I don't feel that I'm

887
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,079
Speaker 4: saying it for him.

888
00:50:32,119 --> 00:50:34,079
Speaker 3: But he doesn't have the words like you do. He

889
00:50:34,119 --> 00:50:36,879
Speaker 3: doesn't have the book. All he has is the gestures,

890
00:50:36,919 --> 00:50:41,839
Speaker 3: the actual action, And so it's important to remember that

891
00:50:41,919 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 3: the actions really convey true emotion.

892
00:50:46,279 --> 00:50:49,359
Speaker 4: They do I translate them that when he does things,

893
00:50:49,399 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 4: he's saying, you know, I can't tell you in words

894
00:50:53,159 --> 00:50:55,079
Speaker 4: what I think of you and how amazing you are.

895
00:50:55,159 --> 00:50:59,199
Speaker 4: But through this little thing, I'm showing you that I am.

896
00:51:00,479 --> 00:51:04,799
Speaker 4: Sometimes I just have to be perceptive and just accept it.

897
00:51:06,519 --> 00:51:11,079
Speaker 1: You know, we have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis is

898
00:51:11,119 --> 00:51:14,439
Speaker 1: that even if he were able to express it in

899
00:51:14,479 --> 00:51:16,159
Speaker 1: words like he does when he says I love you,

900
00:51:17,839 --> 00:51:20,719
Speaker 1: that you would freeze up at.

901
00:51:20,599 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 4: That an ouch.

902
00:51:23,599 --> 00:51:29,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay. You don't quite trust someone loving you.

903
00:51:31,119 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 1: And so no matter how that's expressed, whether he literally

904
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,079
Speaker 1: says to you, I love you, you don't trust it.

905
00:51:36,119 --> 00:51:38,439
Speaker 1: If he gets flowers but words don't come with it,

906
00:51:38,679 --> 00:51:41,079
Speaker 1: you don't trust it. And so there will always be

907
00:51:41,119 --> 00:51:44,599
Speaker 1: a way to defend against those feelings of this makes

908
00:51:44,639 --> 00:51:47,199
Speaker 1: me really uncomfortable. I don't know how to receive love,

909
00:51:47,279 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: so I'm going to devalue it, criticize it, and I

910
00:51:52,319 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: want to just help dismantle the spectrum explanation because I'm

911
00:51:58,279 --> 00:52:01,519
Speaker 1: not saying that that doesn't contribute towards some of what

912
00:52:01,559 --> 00:52:03,999
Speaker 1: the two of you are experiencing. But I think you're

913
00:52:04,119 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: giving it much more weight than it is actually attributing

914
00:52:09,799 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: to what's going on between the two of you.

915
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:13,159
Speaker 4: You're right.

916
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 3: The irony is that we often, as therapists, say to people,

917
00:52:19,159 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 3: don't look at what someone says. Words are cheap. Look

918
00:52:23,359 --> 00:52:26,399
Speaker 3: at what they do that will tell you their true feelings.

919
00:52:26,759 --> 00:52:29,119
Speaker 3: It's advice we give a lot of the time, but

920
00:52:29,159 --> 00:52:33,519
Speaker 3: it's valid here because look at what he does. He

921
00:52:33,599 --> 00:52:37,559
Speaker 3: gets the flowers, he gets the chocolates. He even says

922
00:52:37,999 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 3: I love you and I miss you, So he's communicating

923
00:52:42,639 --> 00:52:46,319
Speaker 3: quite a bit about his feelings. It's so much to

924
00:52:46,399 --> 00:52:48,479
Speaker 3: take in for you, you're so not used to it.

925
00:52:49,439 --> 00:52:53,199
Speaker 3: But if you can remember that in part, what you're

926
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:58,199
Speaker 3: complaining about is that he doesn't make you feel enough

927
00:52:58,439 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 3: that he loves you. When he's actually making you feel

928
00:53:02,439 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 3: it as much as you can tolerate. You're the one

929
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:09,519
Speaker 3: that's not able to tolerate much more right now. If

930
00:53:09,519 --> 00:53:13,919
Speaker 3: you can work on responding more to him so he

931
00:53:13,959 --> 00:53:17,639
Speaker 3: feels less criticized and that his efforts are seen are

932
00:53:17,679 --> 00:53:21,039
Speaker 3: better than not shrugged off, he'll be able to do more,

933
00:53:21,079 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 3: even if not say more, and you might be able

934
00:53:23,919 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 3: to absorb more. And that's a better cycle to be

935
00:53:27,999 --> 00:53:31,079
Speaker 3: in him doing more, you absorbing more, you expressing more,

936
00:53:31,159 --> 00:53:34,039
Speaker 3: him feeling more than doing more. That would be a

937
00:53:34,079 --> 00:53:35,479
Speaker 3: great cycle for you. Guys.

938
00:53:35,879 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 4: Wow, that.

939
00:53:39,759 --> 00:53:42,119
Speaker 3: Good job of staying with us. By the way, thank

940
00:53:42,159 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 3: you not dissociating because you're really paying attention. It's hard, yes,

941
00:53:47,799 --> 00:53:49,119
Speaker 3: but you're doing a great job.

942
00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: We saw that it was hard, and at the same time,

943
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,119
Speaker 1: I think sometimes you don't realize how capable you are.

944
00:53:54,679 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Thank you, guys, Thank you. Laurie.

945
00:54:04,879 --> 00:54:08,239
Speaker 3: Melissa is really on a journey here in terms of

946
00:54:08,359 --> 00:54:12,679
Speaker 3: discovering her emotional world. I'm very curious to see where

947
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:15,079
Speaker 3: she would be in five years or in ten years

948
00:54:15,079 --> 00:54:17,919
Speaker 3: if she continued on this journey, because she's truly at

949
00:54:17,919 --> 00:54:20,239
Speaker 3: the beginning of a process that I hope will be

950
00:54:20,359 --> 00:54:23,479
Speaker 3: much more extended and run much deeper in all kinds

951
00:54:23,519 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 3: of ways. And so I hope she'll be able to

952
00:54:27,479 --> 00:54:30,199
Speaker 3: pull off what we've asked her to do without feeling

953
00:54:30,999 --> 00:54:35,479
Speaker 3: too dissociated or too frozen by the emotion that comes up.

954
00:54:35,799 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that, And I was so glad

955
00:54:38,759 --> 00:54:43,639
Speaker 1: that we were able to hear the part about her

956
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:47,839
Speaker 1: husband saying I love you and bringing her flowers. I

957
00:54:47,959 --> 00:54:51,399
Speaker 1: was so moved by that, and you could see that

958
00:54:51,479 --> 00:54:54,039
Speaker 1: she wanted to be moved by that, because we could

959
00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:56,639
Speaker 1: see it in her body language and in her smile.

960
00:54:57,479 --> 00:55:00,199
Speaker 1: But you can also see how much she feels like

961
00:55:00,279 --> 00:55:03,359
Speaker 1: she needs to protect herself from any kind of emotion,

962
00:55:03,519 --> 00:55:06,839
Speaker 1: whether it's an emotion that seems negative because of how

963
00:55:06,879 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: she associates emotionality with what she experienced growing up, or

964
00:55:11,879 --> 00:55:15,119
Speaker 1: even emotions that seem positive, like I miss you, I

965
00:55:15,159 --> 00:55:18,839
Speaker 1: love you. Leaving flowers, leaving chocolates might not be done

966
00:55:18,839 --> 00:55:21,119
Speaker 1: in exactly the way she wants it, but I also

967
00:55:21,159 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 1: feel like that's a defense against her being able to

968
00:55:23,879 --> 00:55:28,479
Speaker 1: really take in love. And so I'm excited to hear

969
00:55:29,519 --> 00:55:33,559
Speaker 1: whether going back to her kids and validating their emotions

970
00:55:33,599 --> 00:55:36,119
Speaker 1: will feel somewhat healing for her as well as for

971
00:55:36,199 --> 00:55:41,039
Speaker 1: the kids, and also whether noticing her own resistance to

972
00:55:41,919 --> 00:55:45,279
Speaker 1: expressing emotion in her marriage will bring out something different

973
00:55:45,359 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 1: in her husband. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my

974
00:55:54,479 --> 00:55:57,079
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

975
00:56:08,679 --> 00:56:10,999
Speaker 3: We heard from Lissa and we had asked it to

976
00:56:11,039 --> 00:56:13,519
Speaker 3: do a few tasks, all of which are going to

977
00:56:13,559 --> 00:56:16,919
Speaker 3: be emotionally uncomfortable for her. So let's see how she did.

978
00:56:17,439 --> 00:56:20,479
Speaker 7: Hilari and Guy, I just wanted to update you and

979
00:56:20,559 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 7: like you know, how my week was going. This week,

980
00:56:23,279 --> 00:56:28,079
Speaker 7: I managed to validate my children twice, and I noticed

981
00:56:28,119 --> 00:56:31,999
Speaker 7: a few things. One is it's much easier to do

982
00:56:32,479 --> 00:56:36,399
Speaker 7: it not in the moment. The second thing I noticed

983
00:56:36,439 --> 00:56:39,599
Speaker 7: is originally I believed that it would like reignite them

984
00:56:39,599 --> 00:56:43,119
Speaker 7: if I bought it up. But I think that isn't true.

985
00:56:43,159 --> 00:56:46,959
Speaker 7: I think the truth is I'm really, really scared. I

986
00:56:47,079 --> 00:56:49,999
Speaker 7: find it very hard to actually get the words of

987
00:56:50,079 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 7: validation out. It's so hard to be present. Both times

988
00:56:54,359 --> 00:56:58,999
Speaker 7: I ended up crying, I felt my stomach clench. It

989
00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:02,039
Speaker 7: was it was hard for me. But I did notice

990
00:57:02,279 --> 00:57:07,559
Speaker 7: my children did calm down quicker. And I did notice

991
00:57:07,679 --> 00:57:13,679
Speaker 7: also that it created a closeness. I was able to

992
00:57:13,839 --> 00:57:17,079
Speaker 7: do a lot more eye contact that felt really good.

993
00:57:18,039 --> 00:57:20,839
Speaker 7: You know. It's as much as I want that closeness

994
00:57:20,999 --> 00:57:24,079
Speaker 7: like more than anything in the world, I'm also petrified

995
00:57:24,119 --> 00:57:27,519
Speaker 7: of it. But the second thing I noticed was with

996
00:57:27,559 --> 00:57:31,519
Speaker 7: my husband. I tried to be way more aware of

997
00:57:31,559 --> 00:57:34,519
Speaker 7: the ways that he really is acting loving towards me.

998
00:57:35,319 --> 00:57:38,119
Speaker 7: And you know, the stories that I really told myself

999
00:57:38,279 --> 00:57:42,079
Speaker 7: regarding his ability or inability and my parts on not

1000
00:57:42,119 --> 00:57:45,519
Speaker 7: picking up on his social cues of his messages of love.

1001
00:57:45,559 --> 00:57:47,959
Speaker 7: And I actually share this with him. I shared with

1002
00:57:48,039 --> 00:57:50,399
Speaker 7: him how hard it is for me to you know,

1003
00:57:51,319 --> 00:57:53,639
Speaker 7: pick up on the love. And I told him to

1004
00:57:53,639 --> 00:57:56,159
Speaker 7: please cue me if he's doing something loving. And I'm,

1005
00:57:56,359 --> 00:57:59,639
Speaker 7: you know, just dismissing it. But I did notice he

1006
00:57:59,759 --> 00:58:01,719
Speaker 7: said a few things and I just told him, you know,

1007
00:58:01,839 --> 00:58:03,559
Speaker 7: that means a lot to me, and I smiled and

1008
00:58:03,599 --> 00:58:08,599
Speaker 7: I accepted it. It really felt awesome, And I noticed,

1009
00:58:08,639 --> 00:58:11,279
Speaker 7: as there's a rose, I'm feeling a little closer to him.

1010
00:58:11,919 --> 00:58:14,919
Speaker 7: One night this week, I was just lying on his arm,

1011
00:58:14,959 --> 00:58:17,279
Speaker 7: just feeling close to him, you know, and I said

1012
00:58:17,319 --> 00:58:19,679
Speaker 7: to him something I've never said to him before. I

1013
00:58:19,679 --> 00:58:23,039
Speaker 7: said to him, you know, honey, I feel like I'm

1014
00:58:23,079 --> 00:58:25,919
Speaker 7: home and I don't think I've ever felt that before.

1015
00:58:26,559 --> 00:58:29,439
Speaker 7: And if that's not closeness, I'm not sure what it is.

1016
00:58:30,039 --> 00:58:31,799
Speaker 7: So again, I want you to thank you so much

1017
00:58:31,959 --> 00:58:38,839
Speaker 7: for all you've done to help guide me along this journey.

1018
00:58:39,799 --> 00:58:42,999
Speaker 1: I think Melissa did an excellent job with both her

1019
00:58:43,119 --> 00:58:46,959
Speaker 1: kids and her husband, And what I love so much

1020
00:58:47,079 --> 00:58:51,319
Speaker 1: was this concept of the feedback loop that sometimes people say,

1021
00:58:51,759 --> 00:58:54,879
Speaker 1: I have trouble interacting with these other people, and they

1022
00:58:54,879 --> 00:58:57,479
Speaker 1: don't realize their own role in it. So once she

1023
00:58:57,679 --> 00:59:01,159
Speaker 1: was able with her kids to calm down and come

1024
00:59:01,199 --> 00:59:04,279
Speaker 1: back to them in a moment when she could gather herself,

1025
00:59:05,079 --> 00:59:08,919
Speaker 1: her kids felt seen and heard and understood and they

1026
00:59:08,999 --> 00:59:12,479
Speaker 1: calmed down. And then again with that feedback loop, she

1027
00:59:12,799 --> 00:59:15,599
Speaker 1: was calmer with them, and I think with the husband

1028
00:59:15,639 --> 00:59:19,359
Speaker 1: there was that feedback loop too where she did something beautiful.

1029
00:59:19,399 --> 00:59:20,879
Speaker 1: She said, I want you to cue me when you're

1030
00:59:20,879 --> 00:59:23,679
Speaker 1: doing something loving in case I miss it, and then

1031
00:59:23,719 --> 00:59:26,639
Speaker 1: she was able to move closer to him, and that

1032
00:59:26,799 --> 00:59:28,959
Speaker 1: moment at the end where she said, you know, I

1033
00:59:28,999 --> 00:59:34,039
Speaker 1: feel closer to my entire family now, and that beautiful

1034
00:59:34,079 --> 00:59:36,079
Speaker 1: way of expressing it where she said I was lying

1035
00:59:36,159 --> 00:59:38,959
Speaker 1: down with my husband, and I told him that I

1036
00:59:38,959 --> 00:59:40,039
Speaker 1: feel like I'm home.

1037
00:59:41,399 --> 00:59:43,599
Speaker 3: I loved it too, I really did. And what I

1038
00:59:43,679 --> 00:59:47,039
Speaker 3: really liked about it is that there were two leaps

1039
00:59:47,079 --> 00:59:49,359
Speaker 3: of faith. We were making the point with her. Emotion

1040
00:59:49,599 --> 00:59:53,399
Speaker 3: validation is scary. You were going to someone and saying

1041
00:59:53,799 --> 00:59:57,639
Speaker 3: you understand why they're having these intense emotions. It feels

1042
00:59:57,679 --> 01:00:02,039
Speaker 3: like you're igniting them. But when somebody feels understood, it

1043
01:00:02,079 --> 01:00:04,359
Speaker 3: does the opposite. And I remember she was a skeptic

1044
01:00:04,359 --> 01:00:06,839
Speaker 3: of it when we said it, she tried it, she

1045
01:00:06,959 --> 01:00:09,479
Speaker 3: saw it. And the same thing with a husband. You know,

1046
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:12,999
Speaker 3: the paradox is he's closed off. If I open up,

1047
01:00:12,999 --> 01:00:15,999
Speaker 3: I only feel more distant when he's closed off. But

1048
01:00:16,119 --> 01:00:18,759
Speaker 3: if you open yourself up to him, then you'll end

1049
01:00:18,839 --> 01:00:21,279
Speaker 3: up feeling closer. It wasn't obvious to her that these

1050
01:00:21,319 --> 01:00:24,479
Speaker 3: things will actually have the emotional impact for her that

1051
01:00:24,599 --> 01:00:27,079
Speaker 3: they did, but she took that leap of faith. She

1052
01:00:27,119 --> 01:00:31,439
Speaker 3: did it spectacularly, and I'm so glad that she got

1053
01:00:31,479 --> 01:00:33,039
Speaker 3: the results that she got because of it.

1054
01:00:33,399 --> 01:00:35,879
Speaker 1: I am too, And I hope what Melissa takes away,

1055
01:00:35,999 --> 01:00:38,679
Speaker 1: and also what our listeners take away, is that when

1056
01:00:38,839 --> 01:00:42,879
Speaker 1: other people feel understood, and we let them know that

1057
01:00:43,319 --> 01:00:47,639
Speaker 1: we understand them, we start to feel more understood too.

1058
01:00:51,919 --> 01:00:54,959
Speaker 1: Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to

1059
01:00:54,999 --> 01:00:57,719
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out a year later.

1060
01:00:58,119 --> 01:01:04,319
Speaker 6: The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with

1061
01:01:04,359 --> 01:01:09,239
Speaker 6: Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship.

1062
01:01:09,679 --> 01:01:14,639
Speaker 6: That helped me feel less confused about what it was

1063
01:01:14,759 --> 01:01:19,959
Speaker 6: that Blake was looking towards me for and what it

1064
01:01:20,039 --> 01:01:21,399
Speaker 6: is that he's looking for me.

1065
01:01:21,519 --> 01:01:25,559
Speaker 1: Now, Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

1066
01:01:25,799 --> 01:01:28,239
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

1067
01:01:28,239 --> 01:01:31,839
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

1068
01:01:31,839 --> 01:01:34,079
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

1069
01:01:34,119 --> 01:01:37,559
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

1070
01:01:38,159 --> 01:01:40,399
Speaker 3: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1071
01:01:40,399 --> 01:01:45,599
Speaker 3: Bigel Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1072
01:01:45,839 --> 01:01:49,439
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1073
01:01:49,479 --> 01:01:53,639
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

1074
01:01:53,679 --> 01:01:57,239
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

1075
01:01:57,279 --> 01:02:00,759
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast Fairy godmother, Katie Kuric.

1076
01:02:01,439 --> 01:02:03,719
Speaker 3: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

1077
01:02:03,959 --> 01:02:10,559
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio