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Speaker 1: Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of

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Speaker 1: Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, and I write the

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Speaker 1: Dear Therapists advice column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 1: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 1: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: a woman comes to us for help connecting with her husband,

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Speaker 2: her children, and her own emotions.

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Speaker 3: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of

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Speaker 3: saying he loves me, like I have a hard time

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Speaker 3: saying I love you back.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 1: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 1: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 1: and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 1: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. So

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Speaker 1: hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have this week

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Speaker 1: at our box?

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Speaker 2: Well, today we have a letter about trauma and its

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Speaker 2: lasting effects on us and our relationships as adults. And

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Speaker 2: it goes like this, Deotherapists. I am a mum of

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Speaker 2: four boys, and I woke up to my emotions about

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Speaker 2: four years ago. I was super emotionally repressed before this,

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Speaker 2: and I'm learning that everything is about staying present to emotions.

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Speaker 2: My issue is that I have a really difficult time

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Speaker 2: being there for my children through their difficult emotions. As

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Speaker 2: much as I know that being there for them and

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Speaker 2: accepting their hard emotions is one of the biggest gifts

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Speaker 2: I can give them, one of unconditional love and acceptance,

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Speaker 2: I just can't do it. I turn myself off and disconnect,

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Speaker 2: and I find that I need to be away from

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Speaker 2: them when they are having meltdowns. I disengage and even

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Speaker 2: dissociate to a certain extent. I feel that I'm failing

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Speaker 2: them by not being there for them emotionally when they

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Speaker 2: need me most. I think part of this may have

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Speaker 2: to do with my not being okay with my own

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Speaker 2: negative emotions. I've done a tremendous amount of self help

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Speaker 2: work and work with a few different therapists to help

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Speaker 2: me heal some childhood trauma. I feel bad that I

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Speaker 2: can't engage and dive in all the way, and that

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Speaker 2: really limits the depths of my relationships. It's like having

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Speaker 2: the knowledge, but emotionally not being there. Thanks Melissa.

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Speaker 1: So this is a really good example of what happened

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Speaker 1: when you haven't had the experience of tolerating and embracing

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Speaker 1: your own emotions, and they get triggered when other people

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Speaker 1: around you have big am emotions and they're not shy

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Speaker 1: about it, especially kids. Kids are not going to edit

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Speaker 1: their emotions until they learn from the outside world that

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Speaker 1: maybe they should. And I think what she's worried about

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Speaker 1: is that somehow she's sending that message to them.

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Speaker 2: I agree, and I think that she clearly loves her boys,

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Speaker 2: and so I'm sure it must be really difficult for

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Speaker 2: her that she feels disconnected from them in this specific way.

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Speaker 2: And it's obviously going to be difficult for them as well,

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Speaker 2: un as she can change it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think she's right when she talks about

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Speaker 1: healing some childhood trauma, because when she talks about dissociating,

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Speaker 1: that's what happens with trauma, is that the emotions, whether

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Speaker 1: they're yours or there's someone's around you feel so big

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Speaker 1: and so scary that you just don't want to be there,

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Speaker 1: and so you emotionally remove yourself from the situation. And

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Speaker 1: that's what she does. So let's go talk to her

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Speaker 1: and find out a little bit more and see how

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Speaker 1: we can help.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to deal with the therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll

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Speaker 2: be back after a quick break. I'm Lori Gottlieb and

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Speaker 2: I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapist. Hi Melissa,

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Hi Melissa, Hi there.

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Speaker 2: So we read your letter. You mentioned that you awoke

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Speaker 2: to your emotions four years ago. Can you tell us

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Speaker 2: a little bit about what happened then and what this

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Speaker 2: awakening was about?

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Speaker 3: Sure, So, four years ago, I was a very emotionally

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Speaker 3: not developed person. I was feeling things and feeling overwhelmed

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Speaker 3: by them. But I had no way of putting words

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Speaker 3: to them. And then my husband and I separated for

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Speaker 3: over a year, and during that year I did a

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Speaker 3: lot of self growth, self healing work that made me

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Speaker 3: really really aware of what was going on and gave

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Speaker 3: me a whole dictionaryan language for emotions.

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Speaker 1: You and your husband got back together after a year.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Did that have something to do with the fact that

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Speaker 1: you were feeling cut off from your emotions?

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Speaker 3: I think in all relationships there's two parts to making

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Speaker 3: something work. I wasn't aware of what I needed. I

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Speaker 3: wasn't able to express what I needed, and I think

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Speaker 3: that made it very difficult for my husband to know.

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Speaker 3: Because he's a good person and wants to do good

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Speaker 3: things for me, he just has no clue. He's not

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Speaker 3: able to and to it that himself. So with that said,

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Speaker 3: my husband and two of my children are on the

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Speaker 3: autistic spectrum high functioning autism. So I realized that about

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Speaker 3: my husband about maybe six years ago, and I have

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Speaker 3: done a lot of, you know, research, and immersed myself

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Speaker 3: in that world.

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Speaker 1: How long have you been married and how old are

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Speaker 1: the four boys?

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Speaker 3: So I've been married eighteen years and my boys are

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Speaker 3: seventeen twelve six and one.

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Speaker 2: You said that you had trouble with their difficult, big

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Speaker 2: emotions when they have them. But tell us first how

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Speaker 2: you deal with your own.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's a big question. I started feeling them so before,

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Speaker 3: I guess a couple of years ago. I was not

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Speaker 3: allowing myself to feel them. I shut myself down. I

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Speaker 3: was kind of like in survival mode. I tend to

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Speaker 3: sit with them a lot more now, so I acknowledge them.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I have conversations with them. Mostly I think I'm

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Speaker 3: in touch with them through my writing. So I write

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Speaker 3: what I'm feeling. In the beginning, it was very difficult

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Speaker 3: to figure it out. Like I would have a like

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Speaker 3: a dictionary of feeling words, and I would know I'm

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Speaker 3: feeling something, and I would like just scruffle through it

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Speaker 3: and try to figure out what it is I'm feeling.

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Speaker 3: And I'd go through all the words and like, oh

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Speaker 3: my god, I'm feeling lonely and I'd laugh and cry.

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Speaker 3: I figure it out heartbroken, and so I have words

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Speaker 3: for them.

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Speaker 1: There's an actual term for what you're describing. It's called alexiphymia,

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Speaker 1: and it means that you don't have a vocabulary for

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Speaker 1: what you're feeling. You don't know how to articulate what

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Speaker 1: you're feeling, and so sometimes with little kids, we give

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Speaker 1: them a chart sort of like the primary colors red, yellow, blue,

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Speaker 1: It's happy, mad, sad, right, just to even have a

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Speaker 1: place to start with. And I imagine that if you

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Speaker 1: had no experience with your feelings, that you would have

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Speaker 1: to learn a whole new vocabulary.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, it's like learning a new language. And

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Speaker 3: it's so beautiful and so overwhelming, and it's incredible.

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Speaker 2: We call that emotional literacy.

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Speaker 3: Right, And I've realized now I'm an extremely emotional person,

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Speaker 3: and I'll tell you how much I'm feeling anything. So

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Speaker 3: in the beginning, I thought, you know, a lot of

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Speaker 3: the lack of emotional connect with my husband was because

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Speaker 3: he's on his back. But then I realized my part

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Speaker 3: is was I was not in touch at all with

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Speaker 3: what I was feeling. And you know, I put too

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Speaker 3: much of the blame on him. I really did.

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Speaker 1: You said a few minutes ago that you were in

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Speaker 1: survival mode. What were you trying to survive?

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Speaker 3: I would think I was just trying to survive day

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Speaker 3: to day life. I had a very rough childhood. My

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Speaker 3: marriage was very shaky from the beginning, and I have

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Speaker 3: four kids and some of them are very high needs,

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Speaker 3: and I was just trying to keep it together, just

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Speaker 3: to function, to work, to eat, to feed myself, and

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Speaker 3: I wasn't able to do so so well that self

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Speaker 3: care wasn't amazing. And then as I developed with the

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Speaker 3: emotional stuff, I became so much better at taking care

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Speaker 3: of myself.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about the rough childhood?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess I didn't realize growing up. My father

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Speaker 3: had Asperger's very very like extreme rigid, and my mom

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Speaker 3: is from a broken home. She was putting faster care

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Speaker 3: as a child, and none of them had any emotional intelligence.

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Speaker 3: There was definitely a lot of neglect going around, a

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Speaker 3: lot of emotional abuse, some physical abuse.

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Speaker 2: When is it you started to realize that your childhood

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Speaker 2: wasn't the normal childhood in the sense that it had

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Speaker 2: these challenges, because when we grow up, we don't know

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Speaker 2: if what we're experiencing is common or not. Necessarily, when

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Speaker 2: did you start to get how different your upbringing was.

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Speaker 3: I think it started like in my twenties. I noticed

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Speaker 3: things were off about it. I started seeing other families

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Speaker 3: are different that fathers could be involved with their with

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Speaker 3: their kids. I think as a child, I knew something

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Speaker 3: was off. I just didn't know what.

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Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something that felt

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Speaker 1: off to you in retrospect?

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Speaker 3: My mother would have rages and become violent or just

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Speaker 3: scream crazy stuff like I think the last time, maybe

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Speaker 3: when I was about nineteen, she was complaining about my

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Speaker 3: father not giving her enough money to do shopping, and

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Speaker 3: I said something that nice to my dad, like stopping

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Speaker 3: such a stingy person, or you know, something a child

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Speaker 3: probably shouldn't say to a parent. But I kind of

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Speaker 3: left the room, and all of a sudden, she came

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Speaker 3: behind me and started like punching me in my head

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Speaker 3: and like and just you know, chasing me and saying

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Speaker 3: I'm going to kill you. Things like that where they're

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Speaker 3: just I think anyone would really know that's off. So

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Speaker 3: I think I've had to learn a lot on how

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Speaker 3: to separate between you know, what's her and what's me.

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Speaker 2: You said you've been in therapy over these past years.

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Speaker 2: How much work have you done on trying to really

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Speaker 2: understand the experience you had and as a child through

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Speaker 2: the eyes of someone who then does recognize what was

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Speaker 2: acceptable and what wasn't. How much self compassion have you

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Speaker 2: developed for the experiences that you went through.

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Speaker 3: The first therapist I saw her for many, many years,

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Speaker 3: and she was like one of the CBT model kinds,

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Speaker 3: and I don't think it really worked for me because

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Speaker 3: she never reflected back. So I never had a sense

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Speaker 3: of normalcy from her either, which means if I described

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Speaker 3: something crazy, she wouldn't necessarily GOHI that's absolutely nuts. She

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Speaker 3: would say, you know, how can we reframe that? Or

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Speaker 3: it really didn't help me. I think about four years

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Speaker 3: ago is when I really started looking at what happened

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Speaker 3: and seeing it and working on the self compassion. I

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Speaker 3: think that has been key.

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Speaker 1: I think what you're really talking about is what we

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Speaker 1: call emotional validation. And I think you were really craving

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Speaker 1: that because when you were a girl, you must have

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Speaker 1: wondered at some point is this typical? Or is this

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Speaker 1: my fault? Or is something going on with my parents?

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Speaker 1: And so you didn't get that emotional validation of yes,

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Speaker 1: this is not okay, Yes this is not about you,

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Speaker 1: Yes this is something that's going on with your parents.

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Speaker 1: And so when you just told us the story of

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Speaker 1: your mother had this reaction of where she started hitting

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Speaker 1: your head. I don't know if you saw our faces,

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Speaker 1: but we just empathized so much with the pain of

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Speaker 1: that and the confusion and also the sense of betrayal

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Speaker 1: that your parents are supposed to be the people who

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Speaker 1: protect you and yet you're afraid of them. And if

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Speaker 1: you don't get the validation, it's hard to know what

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Speaker 1: to do with your own feelings when you have them.

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Speaker 1: So when you said I'm actually a very emotional person,

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Speaker 1: we're all very emotional People's human is you just aren't

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Speaker 1: used to feeling your emotions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear that. I totally hear that.

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Speaker 2: Tell us a little bit, then, what happens with your sons?

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Speaker 2: You mentioned meltdowns in your letter. Could you give us

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Speaker 2: an example of the kinds of situations that you find

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Speaker 2: yourself in with your sons that you have a hard

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Speaker 2: time dealing with emotionally, that you disconnect.

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Speaker 3: Yesterday, my son came home and he wanted to hop

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Speaker 3: on the computer, and I said, we're gonna help mommy

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Speaker 3: for a little bit first, and you know, although I

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Speaker 3: know it's unexpected, he had a complete meltdown. He's twelve.

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Speaker 3: So you wouldn't expect him to lie on the floor crying, screaming.

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Speaker 3: It was extremely loud, and I don't know what happens

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Speaker 3: to me from loudness, but I can't manage it, like

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Speaker 3: I'm very sensitive to noise. And then the end, I said,

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Speaker 3: you know, like you have ten seconds to just get

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Speaker 3: yourself to your room because you cannot stay here and

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Speaker 3: scream while I'm cleaning with your other brother. And then

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Speaker 3: I went out on the stroller with the baby and

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Speaker 3: we went for a walk just to get a break

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Speaker 3: from the noise. But I'm not there with him. I'm

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Speaker 3: not there with him in the moment.

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Speaker 1: You said you have two sons who are on the spectrum?

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Speaker 1: Is that one of the suns?

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Speaker 3: No, it's not. He's probably one of my easier ones.

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Speaker 1: That reminds me a little bit of what happened with

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Speaker 1: your parents, where they would have these very exaggerated reactions

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Speaker 1: to things and you had to sit there and think, well,

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Speaker 1: is this typical? Is this not typical? And I think

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Speaker 1: the same thing with your son. You said, well, he's twelve,

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Speaker 1: so I don't think he should be doing that, But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, you're not really sure. I think

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Speaker 1: that's sort of a replication of something that you've experienced

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Speaker 1: your whole life, which is, how do I know what

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Speaker 1: is typical acceptable?

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Speaker 3: Totally relate to that? That really resonates.

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Speaker 2: The example he gave Melissa is one in which your

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Speaker 2: son had an unusual reaction. I'm curious about what happens

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Speaker 2: in the regular life experiences when the boys feel sad

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Speaker 2: or upset or disappointed or rejected. What happens in moments

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, my six year old might come and say

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Speaker 3: his one year old brother smashes tower, he bolt, and

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Speaker 3: he's really, like, really angry and really upset about it.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I typically will respond with a lot

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Speaker 3: of empathy. I'll say I'm sorry, but I don't really

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Speaker 3: feel it, quite honestly, And you know, I might also

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Speaker 3: shift some other responsibility to him, like you know, your

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Speaker 3: brother's up right now and he can reach it, maybe

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Speaker 3: he should be doing it on a different surface or

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Speaker 3: in a different room with the door closes or something

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 1: What happens inside of you that kind of makes you disengage,

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Speaker 1: Because the response I just heard was very dis engaged.

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Speaker 3: I think because there's so much screaming and noise accompanied

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Speaker 3: with it. It's really hard for me to even hear

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Speaker 3: what he needs.

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Speaker 1: But what actually happens in your body? Can you close

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Speaker 1: your eyes for a minute and tell us what happens

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Speaker 1: when you go back and think about that.

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Speaker 3: I think I cringe, like at the noise, and I

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Speaker 3: feel like I free somewhat. And I think if the

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Speaker 3: noise level is high enough, I can't even think, like

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Speaker 3: I can't figure out what I need to do, you know.

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Speaker 3: I like if my kids screaming for food and they're

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Speaker 3: hungry right now and I'm trying to get something, I'll

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Speaker 3: open the fridge and not be able to get anything

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Speaker 3: out because I'm not really functioning. I'm not really able

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Speaker 3: to think, like, what is it I need to do

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Speaker 3: next in order to help the child. I'm just more frozen.

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Speaker 2: So the noise really makes a big difference to you.

303
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Speaker 2: There's about the view that knows, Yeah, I can't spend

304
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Speaker 2: a second going oh, I'm sorry, honey, and before you

305
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Speaker 2: go to but maybe put it on the table because

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Speaker 2: you can reach the younger brother. Is that something that

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Speaker 2: comes to you in hindsight or is that something you

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Speaker 2: recognize even in a moment, but feel frozen because of

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Speaker 2: the noise.

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Speaker 3: I think it's easier in hindsight, but many times it

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Speaker 3: is in the moment, but I'm frozen, or because I

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Speaker 3: feel like almost a repulsion to the child, like just

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Speaker 3: get away from me, Just go away, leave me alone.

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Speaker 2: Their pain is causing you so much distress when we

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Speaker 2: feel pain, and emotional pain registers in the brain very

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Speaker 2: very similarly to physical pain, and our response to physical

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Speaker 2: pain is often to lash out in anger, and our

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Speaker 2: response to emotional pain can be very similar sometimes. And

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Speaker 2: so I'm assuming that at some of those moments their

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Speaker 2: distress is triggering a lot of pain in you. Is

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Speaker 2: that something that you've realized.

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Speaker 3: I didn't realize, but it sounds true.

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Speaker 2: So then it's about you being able to manage your

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Speaker 2: pain as well as theirs, because that's what keeps getting triggered.

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Speaker 3: I don't think I could do both at the same time.

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Speaker 2: The question is whether you're doing either of them, because

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Speaker 2: it sounds like when you freeze, then you're not dealing

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Speaker 2: with yours or theirs.

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Speaker 3: Correct them not.

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Speaker 1: In response to threats, emotional threats, physical threats, there's fight,

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Speaker 1: flight and freeze. So a lot of people know about

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Speaker 1: fight or flight. In an argument like with a partner,

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Speaker 1: for example, but especially with the history of trauma, freeze

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Speaker 1: is very common, and I think what you're doing is

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Speaker 1: you're going straight into freeze. And so as guy was saying,

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Speaker 1: it's hard for you when you're frozen to manage your

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Speaker 1: pain or your child's pain. You're standing in front of

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Speaker 1: the refrigerator with the door open, unable to move. And

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Speaker 1: I think that one of the things that would be

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Speaker 1: really helpful is to understand a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: how in the last four years since you've had this awakening,

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Speaker 1: you've come to manage your own emotions.

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Speaker 3: That's a big question. I think I do come to

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Speaker 3: myself with a lot more self compassion, more like as

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Speaker 3: a friend than as an enemy or a judge. Let's

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Speaker 3: say I goof up, I know, messed up something, and

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Speaker 3: I just put my friends in there and say, you know,

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Speaker 3: if she messed up, how would I feel? And I

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Speaker 3: would have a lot more compassion. So sometimes that helps.

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Speaker 3: I engage in a lot of self soothing practices just

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Speaker 3: to help me in general, with hot bath, hot shower, meditate,

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Speaker 3: just physical things that I'm doing to calm myself.

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Speaker 1: Do you notice in that moment when there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of noise that it feels a lot like the noise

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Speaker 1: when you were growing up, when you were being yelled at,

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Speaker 1: when your parents were having big reactions to things. Does

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Speaker 1: it feel reminiscent of that. Sometimes what kids do in

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Speaker 1: that moment is they dissociate. They take themselves somewhere else

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Speaker 1: in their minds. And you mentioned in your letter that

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Speaker 1: sometimes you dissociate with the kids. Does that feel familiar

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 3: I haven't put the two and two together. It feels

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Speaker 3: more if I had to put a word, like like

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Speaker 3: being in trouble, like being on the hot seat.

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Speaker 2: What's the part that feels like being on the hot seat?

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Speaker 3: I guess when I hear screaming, I feel like I'm

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Speaker 3: supposed to do something with it.

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Speaker 2: So danger it feels like danger.

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Speaker 3: It does feel like danger.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Because when your parents would get very loud, you

371
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Speaker 1: did feel like you were in trouble because they told

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Speaker 1: you that you were the cause of their pain. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And so every time you hear that loudness, you feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm being blamed for this other person's pain, even

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Speaker 1: though I'm not quite sure that I'm responsible for it.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

377
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Speaker 1: And now when your kids come to you and they

378
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Speaker 1: get very loud, like, look what happened. He knocked down

379
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Speaker 1: my tower. Even though he's not blaming you, he's coming

380
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Speaker 1: to you because he's really upset. You hear it as

381
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,760
Speaker 1: and you, mom should have done something about this, and you,

382
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Speaker 1: mom should have prevented him from knocking down my tower,

383
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Speaker 1: and you, mom need to take away my anger and

384
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Speaker 1: my pain at this, and you are to blame. I

385
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Speaker 1: think that's the message that you're hearing from him.

386
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that sounds true.

387
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Speaker 2: When you have these exchanges and you freeze, what happens afterwards?

388
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Speaker 2: When you unfreeze? Do you do any kind of repair

389
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 2: work with your son about it later on?

390
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 3: I don't think I do most of the times, unless

391
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Speaker 3: I like yell at the kid to just go away.

392
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Speaker 3: I might apologize later I'm sorry I yelled at you.

393
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 3: I shouldn't have done that.

394
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Speaker 2: But you don't go back and say, do you want

395
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Speaker 2: to talk more about how frustrating it is when you're

396
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 2: building something and your brother comes and ruins it. You

397
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Speaker 2: don't go back and try and talk to them about

398
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Speaker 2: it when they're calmer, when you're karmo, when they're not shouting,

399
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Speaker 2: when you can think, I do not.

400
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Speaker 3: What do you think would happen if you did, I

401
00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 3: think they would explode again. I feel like it's going

402
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 3: to dredge it up again for them and maybe for me.

403
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,639
Speaker 2: So the feeling you have is that they will not

404
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 2: be able to control their emotions, even if they're calm

405
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 2: in the moment, even if it's after the thing actually happened,

406
00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:01,360
Speaker 2: that any discussion of something that's activating or upsetting, they

407
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 2: will lose control. They will get loud, that you will freeze,

408
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 2: and that whole cycle will happen. Yeah, but if that's

409
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 2: not entirely true, what if they can talk about it

410
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: when they're calmer and they're a little more removed and

411
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 2: have more perspective. Do you think you'd be able to

412
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,879
Speaker 2: have that kind of conversation with them if they were calmer.

413
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 3: Oh, I think I could. I think I just have

414
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:27,639
Speaker 3: to be patient, you know, to wait for them to

415
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 3: completely calm down, and then to bring it up again.

416
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,320
Speaker 3: I guess be brave enough to go back into the

417
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Speaker 3: arena because.

418
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Speaker 2: The paradox of it is, and I think this might

419
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 2: have been your experience too, that when your parent doesn't

420
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 2: give you that emotional validation, it makes you get louder

421
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: because you're trying to get something from them. They didn't

422
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 2: hear it apparently the first time. They didn't get it

423
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,639
Speaker 2: the first time. So I think the way things happen

424
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Speaker 2: now with you freezing and then being loud up this cycle,

425
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: when in fact, if you approach them once they were

426
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 2: calm and you will calm as well, what you would

427
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 2: be pulling out of them would be something calmer that,

428
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 2: in time would help them keep the lid perhaps on

429
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 2: getting too loud when things happen, because they'd have a

430
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,080
Speaker 2: little bit more of the assurance that Mom can hear

431
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: us even if we're not loud, and especially perhaps if

432
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 2: we're not.

433
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Speaker 3: I think that would be great.

434
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Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit more about the marriage?

435
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: You split up for a year, you got back together.

436
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: What has it been like since you got back together?

437
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: What has changed that has made it work better for

438
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: both of you and particularly in terms of the emotional connection.

439
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 3: So since we've got back what has changed, I feel

440
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 3: is mostly on my part is the way I communicate,

441
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 3: which means if I need something, I need to take

442
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 3: a shower now, and I need you to watch the

443
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 3: children while I take the shower. Before the breakup, I

444
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 3: think I would not have been able to say it

445
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 3: that way. I just would have been I need a shower,

446
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 3: and he'd say later and then forget later, and I

447
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 3: would just explode that I need a shower at some point.

448
00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: So I think being able just to verbalize what I

449
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 3: need and just managing expectations on my part, expecting my

450
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 3: husband to come with a whole boatload of empathy isn't

451
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 3: really realistic, and part of it really isn't. Again, he

452
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 3: had no modeling, you know as well. For that. I

453
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 3: feel like I am happier, but not because he's, you know,

454
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 3: stepping up and meeting my needs. It's because I'm stepping

455
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 3: up a meeting my needs. I'm getting much better at

456
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 3: self care, taking a lot of time for myself because

457
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 3: I need a lot of quiet time just to be

458
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: by myself.

459
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 2: About that. By the way, how much are the five

460
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: guys in the house aware that noise is really difficult

461
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 2: for mom? Your husband? Is he clear about it or not?

462
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: I think he is aware that it bothers me, but.

463
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: That's putting it way too mildly. Because it bothers you

464
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: means it's a little annoying, but you can manage it

465
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: makes you freeze. It really activates you, it triggers you.

466
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: And I'm wondering if he's clear enough about the fact

467
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 2: that he could be useful by paying attention to the

468
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: noise level in the house and stepping in, and that

469
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 2: that would be a very helpful duty as a co

470
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 2: parent and as a husband on his part. Do you

471
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 2: think he's clear enough that he can actually add value

472
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: there more than he might be at the moment.

473
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 3: I think I'd have to verbalize it and express it

474
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 3: in that way that I really need him to step

475
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 3: up and help me with that. I find sometimes when

476
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,160
Speaker 3: I do express my overwhelm, he can get judgmental about it.

477
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: What does that look like?

478
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 3: Well, he'll tell me that it's not normal, or that

479
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 3: other people aren't like that, or I really should get

480
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: help for that to deal with it a little better.

481
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 3: It's not empathy.

482
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 2: I find that when somebody has a sensitivity that one

483
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: of the best responses you can have when somebody says, well,

484
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: you're sensitive, is to say, yes, I am. I have

485
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 2: a sensitivity. That's why I'm asking for your help to

486
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 2: kind of own the sensitivity rather than have to apologize

487
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: for it or feel that it's something that you need

488
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: to fix.

489
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 3: I do own it, and I am very honest about

490
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 3: being sensitive to many things. I do find that it

491
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 3: turns judgmental where it's like, this is your issue, you

492
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 3: need to get help for that.

493
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: When you say that he's framing this as your issue.

494
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: Did the two of you when you split up go

495
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: to couple's therapy together. I'm a little bit unclear about

496
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: who initiated the split up, what caused it, and then

497
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: what did the two of you do to try to

498
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: make things different so that you could come back to other.

499
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 3: Okay, so before this the split up, we saw many

500
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 3: marriage counselors. Many of the times my husband would stop

501
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 3: after four six sessions and say, you know, and now

502
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: I know what I'm supposed to do, so I just

503
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 3: need to do it. Until then there's no point in continuing.

504
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 1: Was it your idea to go to counseling?

505
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 3: I absolutely pushed it. It was, you know, it was

506
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 3: pretty much a thread over has had many times where

507
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 3: he'd start, stop, start, stop, in and out all the time,

508
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 3: but never voluntarily saying, hey, maybe we should get some help.

509
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 3: So what I did find helpful was during the split up,

510
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 3: somebody had recommended a marriage coach and it was very

511
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 3: different from counseling, but it definitely was counseling. We worked

512
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: with that person for maybe a year, just over a year,

513
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 3: and she was incredible and skilled, and she was the

514
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 3: one that helped me wake up to my emotions.

515
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: What happened between you and your husband during that time

516
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: in terms of getting closer? What did he learn about you?

517
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: And what did you learn about him?

518
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,360
Speaker 3: I learned to be more vulnerable to him, to let

519
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 3: him have space to be there for me as a husband.

520
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 3: I think he did step up to the plate to

521
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 3: a certain extent, maybe not as much as I would

522
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 3: have liked. I do think him moving back was premature.

523
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 3: I felt like I was pressured into it and I

524
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 3: wasn't ready by him. I was pressured by him and

525
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 3: a little bit by the marriage coach.

526
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: Did your husband want to move back because he expressed

527
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: missing you?

528
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: No, he wanted to move back for other reasons. I

529
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 3: think he was very shamed that a separation, I guess,

530
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 3: and you know the circles where he's from, divorce is

531
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 3: very frowned upon. He's from a country that just doesn't

532
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 3: support that kind of stuff. I think he felt maybe

533
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: like a failure. He felt rejected. There were many things

534
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 3: he was feeling.

535
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,239
Speaker 1: You say you'd think he felt meaning, you're guessing or

536
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: he was able to articulate those to you.

537
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: He was able to articulate, maybe not directly, like he

538
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 3: was saying I was always afraid I'd get married one

539
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 3: day and it would never work out, or things like

540
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 3: that where I could kind of guess that he was

541
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 3: fearing rejection.

542
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: But he never said I miss you.

543
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 3: You know what he said, I miss you. But again,

544
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 3: with people in the spectrum, there's usually no voice, fluctuation,

545
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: or feeling behind it. He may have meant it. I'm

546
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 3: not saying I felt it.

547
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: I just want to say one thing about people on

548
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: the spectrum that I think there's this misconception that they

549
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: don't feel, and they absolutely feel, and maybe they don't

550
00:30:56,440 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: express it well, and that is their challenge. So when

551
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: you say there was no emotion in his voice when

552
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,720
Speaker 1: he said I miss you, that does not mean that

553
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: he did not miss you. It means it might have

554
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: sounded a bit mechanical or robotic in terms of the tone.

555
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: But I think that you are very invested in this

556
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: idea that because he's on the spectrum, that he doesn't

557
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 1: have feelings, and that just not true. He has feelings,

558
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what to do with them or how

559
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: to articulate them. And I think that you too, actually

560
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: have more in common than you realize. And the way

561
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: that this has been portrayed in your marriage, especially since

562
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: the emotional awakening, has been that you're the one who

563
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,479
Speaker 1: knows how to feel and he doesn't know how to feel.

564
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: And I think that it's something to consider that he

565
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: does know how to feel, but like you, he doesn't

566
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: know how to express it. And I think that there's

567
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 1: no coincidence that the two of you ended up together

568
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: in the first place.

569
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree with you that one. I think it

570
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 3: was also I was questioning where he was coming from.

571
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 3: So although he may say, you know, I miss you,

572
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 3: it may be like, hey, I'm not going to have

573
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,719
Speaker 3: a place to live next month, like I really need

574
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 3: to move in. I was unsure as to which one

575
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: it was that was pushing him saying I miss you.

576
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: Right, And it could be lots of things like the

577
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 1: logistical piece as well as the emotional piece. But do

578
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: you notice that you didn't ask.

579
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 3: No, I didn't ask.

580
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: I judged right, and both of you do that to

581
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: each other.

582
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 3: Yes.

583
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: Another thing to keep in mind with people on the

584
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: spectrum is that they often can miss emotional cues. And

585
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: so you're smiling, tell me about that.

586
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: Yes, they definitely will the emotional cues, social cues, physical cues,

587
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: every cue.

588
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 4: That.

589
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I take it from that that you've put a

590
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 2: lot of cues out there and many of them did

591
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: not come back. And when they miss them again, another

592
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: misconceptionist that they ignore them. But to ignore something, it

593
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: has to show up on your radar. And often what

594
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: happens is it doesn't show up on the radar. So

595
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 2: it's not ignoring, it's literally missing, not seeing. And I'm

596
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: glad you know that. I mean, you know that enough

597
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 2: to smile at it. So I'm glad you know that,

598
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: because otherwise you can equally misjudge the lack of response

599
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,720
Speaker 2: is not caring when that's not the case. It might

600
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: be caring.

601
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: He's so frustrated by the way that noise triggers you

602
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: because it doesn't trigger him in the same way, And

603
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: you're so frustrated that he can't read these cues because

604
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: you can read them very easily. And I think that

605
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: the reason that we're talking about your marriage even though

606
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: you wrote about your children, Is that what the two

607
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: of you do in practice together will help you so

608
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: much with what you do and what you practice with

609
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: your children.

610
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure there are opportunities where your husband passes

611
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: by just as the baby is knocking down the tower

612
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 2: of the six year old, or whatever the comparable situation

613
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: would be with any of the other boys, and he's

614
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 2: actually the first parent on the scene. Does he just

615
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: keep walking? Does he intervene? What are his parenting efforts

616
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,959
Speaker 2: with the boys?

617
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 3: I don't think he's an effective parent in terms of

618
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 3: stopping it. He might say, well, it's a baby, so

619
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 3: just let him smash it down. He might like push

620
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 3: his brother over, and then he'll start yelling at the

621
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 3: big brother for pushing his baby brother. So I find

622
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: that when he gets involved, I have a lot more

623
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 3: damage to have to restore than just had he not

624
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: got involved at all.

625
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: Okay, but again there's a bit of a similarity there

626
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: because you had the response of, like, here's what you

627
00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 2: could have done differently rather than contain and validate the

628
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: frustration of the six year old. But since the boys

629
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 2: haven't been getting the emotional validation from either of you,

630
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: is it something you would be able to have a

631
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,880
Speaker 2: conversation with your husband about that you might have to

632
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: work together as a team so that you at least

633
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 2: are able to do a little bit more of the

634
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: emotional validation, because I think that if you had his support,

635
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: either in saying to the kids, hey, hey, keep it down,

636
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 2: lower your voices, or even just being there and standing

637
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,320
Speaker 2: next to you. Often what happens when their two parents

638
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 2: in the home, If one of them is trying to

639
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: manage a situation and the other just comes and stands

640
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 2: next to them, doesn't say a word, it really feels

641
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 2: to the kids like you're operating as a team, and

642
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: it could feel to you like he's being supportive. But

643
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if his presence might help you unfreeze in

644
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: those moments, or I hope the kids bring it down

645
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: in terms of volume by a notch so you can

646
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: then use some of the skills that you've been practicing

647
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: to respond in a more empathetic and validating way.

648
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,400
Speaker 3: I love that idea of just his presence being there

649
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 3: because I think that's something he can do and like

650
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 3: not screw up.

651
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,799
Speaker 1: I just want to also just have you notice your

652
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: language and you said, I think that's something he can

653
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,399
Speaker 1: do and not screw up. There's judgment in that, right,

654
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,359
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that he picks up on that. And

655
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: when Guy was talking about presence and having his presence

656
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,320
Speaker 1: there and how that might be more containing for the

657
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: children to see their parents as a team, I wonder

658
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: if his presence is also comforting to you, not in

659
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 1: terms of in front of the kids, but you did

660
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: decide to marry him, even after the emotional awakening, You

661
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 1: decided you wanted to stay married to him. In what

662
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,800
Speaker 1: ways is his presence comforting to you? Tell us about

663
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: the positive parts of this marriage.

664
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: That's a hard question to answer. I think I'm disassociating, Melissa.

665
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: I think part of why you might be dissociating is

666
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: because what feels really difficult for you in this moment

667
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 2: is to contemplate feeling close to him. The question was

668
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,280
Speaker 2: about what is good in the marriage, and that evokes

669
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:37,919
Speaker 2: emotional closeness, and I think that that's something that you're

670
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 2: still struggling with. That the idea of the emotional closeness

671
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 2: is what makes you very anxious and therefore kind of

672
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: dissociate and separate yourself from that strong emotion and I'm

673
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: wondering who in your life do you feel closest to emotionally.

674
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 3: I have the closest bond with a friend. She does

675
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 3: not live in my state. I run a support group

676
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 3: for women with men on the spectrum and she is

677
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 3: part of it, and we became close to friends through that.

678
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: You're the one that's running the support group, and you

679
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: get close to the person who's in the support group.

680
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: So you can get close to someone because the situation

681
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 2: almost forces the emotional connection. Because you're running the support group.

682
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 2: It's your job to be open to the people in

683
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: the group. But I think that it might be very

684
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: hard for you outside of those very specific contexts to

685
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: get close And that's part of the trauma work that

686
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 2: you've referred to, that there's probably some more work to

687
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: be done there.

688
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

689
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: I do fear closeness, yes, And that's part of what's

690
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 2: happening with the boys. I think that to be there

691
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: for them, to contain them, even in that minor frustration

692
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 2: of the tower being broken, is to love them in

693
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: a deep connective way that might feel threatening in an

694
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 2: unconscious way because your history is that loving family can

695
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 2: still be very scary because The thing that stood out

696
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: for me about your description of your mum in that

697
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 2: scenario was she hit you from behind. It was unexpected,

698
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: it was as you were walking away. That's really difficult

699
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 2: because when you grow up like that, you really don't

700
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 2: know when it's coming, if it's from behind. And I

701
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: think there's still work to be done there so that

702
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,800
Speaker 2: you can try and move past some of that trauma

703
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 2: and that fear that gets triggered, because I think it's

704
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 2: still operating now in the sense that it's keeping you

705
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 2: from allowing yourself to get too close even to your children,

706
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 2: to your husband, to people that you really actually do

707
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 2: care about.

708
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 3: What you're saying resonates. I'm like feeling hot, so I

709
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 3: know it's it's true.

710
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you say you know it's true, does that

711
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 1: mean that you think there might be other feelings about

712
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: your husband that when you stood up there at your

713
00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: wedding and you said, I'm going to marry this person,

714
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: did you feel like, yeah, he's okay? Or were you

715
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: excited on some level to marry him even if you

716
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: were also terrified.

717
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 3: I think part of me was excited on some level.

718
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 3: I think with a distance, then I've lost a lot

719
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 3: of respect, and it's possible that respect keeps that distance.

720
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: For me that but also you keep the distance from him.

721
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 4: I do.

722
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: So, Melissa, we have some advice for you, and it's

723
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 2: in two parts. The first part is about the kids.

724
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: We believe that you've been doing a lot of work

725
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 2: on trying to become more emotionally literate in terms naming feelings,

726
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: and we know that you really want to connect more

727
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: with your kids. We do understand that in the moment

728
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 2: when they're shouting or crying and it's loud, it is

729
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: going to be very difficult to do that fight flight

730
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 2: or freeze response is really big. Then it is hard

731
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 2: to do something about in the moment. But you don't

732
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: have to do it in a moment. If you're frozen,

733
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 2: you can do it shortly after, once everyone is a

734
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: little calmer. You included. So what would like you to

735
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: do this week is to find opportunities that one of

736
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: the kids is upset about something and you freeze up,

737
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,479
Speaker 2: and after that happens, we would like you to go

738
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: to that child. And we're just going to use as

739
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,720
Speaker 2: an example the tower being toppled over by the baby.

740
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: If after that happens, you can go to your six

741
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 2: year old and do the emotional validation that is, help

742
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,479
Speaker 2: him name the feeling, because you have the names now,

743
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: And the simple way to do that is to say

744
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 2: to him something like, I know that when you're working

745
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 2: on a tower and you've been putting effort into it

746
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: and you're building it, and when your brother comes and

747
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: topples it over, that can be really frustrating and you

748
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 2: can be really angry. I understand that, and it's okay

749
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: that you feel that way. Just that piece of emotional validation. Now.

750
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: Your concern in the past has been that if you

751
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 2: say something about his feelings he's feeling angry or he's

752
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: feeling frustrated, it will activate him again and he'll feel

753
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 2: angry and frustrated again, and then start chatting again, and

754
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 2: back to frozen you go. However, emotional validation is really

755
00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 2: paradoxical in its impact, because while it seems that by

756
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: bringing up the very emotion that upset him you will

757
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 2: be igniting the flame again, you will actually be dousing it.

758
00:42:54,719 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 2: We respond by calming when somebody really names that feeling,

759
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 2: we have the same way. You get an insight when

760
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 2: you ah, I found the feeling in the book you

761
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 2: go ah, and there's a ease, there's an exhale that

762
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 2: comes when that happens. That's what you can give each

763
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: of the kids by doing this with them, by giving

764
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 2: them the names so that they can name their feelings

765
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 2: and learn to do it much younger than you did,

766
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 2: and that will be a great gift that you can

767
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 2: give them. And you can do it after the fact,

768
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: when you're calm, when they're calme. So this week would

769
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 2: like you to find opportunities to do that. That's the

770
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 2: first part of the advice.

771
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 3: Okay.

772
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 1: Part two is that we want to help you think

773
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: a little bit differently about that story that you have

774
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: about you and your husband. The story that you have

775
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: is that your husband is not capable of feeling emotions

776
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 1: or responding to you in a way that will be

777
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: emotionally satisfying. And we think that the part of that

778
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 1: story that you're leaving out is that you have trouble

779
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: doing the same thing with him. Now, the reasons might

780
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,280
Speaker 1: be different, but both of you judge the other person

781
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: for the things that you're not getting from one another,

782
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: and both of you think that it's the other person's fault.

783
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 1: And so what we'd like you to do to help

784
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: maybe edit that story a little bit and see if

785
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 1: a truer story emerges. Is that we'd like to see

786
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: you hold up your end of what you would like

787
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: to happen in that marriage, which is do you ever

788
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: take his hand? Do you ever show affection toward him?

789
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 1: For example, in that time when he said that he

790
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: wanted to come back and he said I miss you,

791
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: you made an assumption about why he wanted to come back,

792
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 1: but you didn't actually say to him, Hey, I'm really

793
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 1: curious to learn more about what you mean by you

794
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: miss me. So you didn't give him the opportunity to

795
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: tell you something that would have been important for you

796
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: to know, like what is it you mean? And I

797
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: don't think that you were able to let yourself acknowledge

798
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: what you missed about him, because I think there's a

799
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: reason that you decided to re engage in the marriage

800
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: that went beyond logistics or guilt or pressure. And you're nodding,

801
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: so we can see that that's there. So what would

802
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: like you to do this week with your husband is

803
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 1: to respond to him without the judgment and the very

804
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: rigid story that you have about his ability to be

805
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: emotionally connected and to really consider your own challenges with

806
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: emotional connection and to give in the marriage what you

807
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 1: would like. You know, when we asked about you know

808
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: the social cues that he misreads, you said, you know

809
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 1: globally he misreads every single social cue. Does he you know,

810
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:54,440
Speaker 1: if he took his hand, what would he do with that?

811
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 1: Are you aware of his sensitivities and the way that

812
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: you're asking him to be aware of yours? And we

813
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: want to see if you notice a difference in your

814
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: own level of satisfaction this week? Do you feel a

815
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: little bit better? Do you feel a tiny bit more

816
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: connected if you do something that addresses your part in

817
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,360
Speaker 1: what's not working in terms of the connection in the marriage,

818
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: and will that somehow influence him to feel more free

819
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: to engage with you.

820
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 3: It's funny because he's way more expressive in terms of

821
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,439
Speaker 3: saying he loves me, like I have a hard time

822
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 3: saying I love you back.

823
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 2: Do you have a hard time accepting that he does?

824
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 3: I think for me, I don't know if it's sincere

825
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 3: or not.

826
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: How do you respond when he says it?

827
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 3: I usually shrug it off.

828
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 2: What if the next time he said I love you,

829
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 2: you said it means a lot to me when you

830
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 2: say it, I could try that. What will happen if

831
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: you do is it will connect to you a little bit,

832
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 2: to your feelings, so you might freeze or disassociate. But

833
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,919
Speaker 2: if you have trouble saying it with words, you can

834
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 2: just walk up to him and rub his shoulder or

835
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,319
Speaker 2: his back to let him know in a gesture that

836
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: you heard and you appreciate it. If you find it,

837
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:17,080
Speaker 2: you're freezing.

838
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 3: Okay, So that's like a plan.

839
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: Can you tell us any other examples of how he

840
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: comes to you besides saying I love you.

841
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 3: Sometimes he'll buy flowers, he will leave it in a

842
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 3: bah somewhere, or sometimes he'll buy chocolate and just leave it.

843
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 3: I don't usually receive it well because I feel like

844
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 3: I need words to go with it and not just

845
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 3: left around. Like I saw a bag of chocolate, so

846
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 3: you know, I put it in the grocery shelf because

847
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 3: I didn't realize they were for me.

848
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 2: Well, the flowers, you can't mistake the flowers can so,

849
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: and when you get the flowers, what we're suggesting is

850
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,600
Speaker 2: that you go up to and say, I found the flowers.

851
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 2: That is so sweet, Thank you so much.

852
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 3: I do. I tell them again, I say, you know,

853
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,759
Speaker 3: it's so thoughtful what you did, but I don't feel it.

854
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 3: I'm saying it for him.

855
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: But he doesn't have the words like you do. He

856
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 2: doesn't have the book. All he has is the gestures,

857
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 2: the actual action, And so it's important to remember that

858
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 2: the actions really convey true emotion.

859
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 3: They do I translate them that when he does things,

860
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 3: he's saying, you know, I can't tell you in words

861
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,439
Speaker 3: what I think of you and how amazing you are,

862
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 3: But through this little thing, I'm showing you that I am.

863
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 3: Sometimes I just have to be perceptive and just accept it.

864
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: You know, we have a hypothesis, and the hypothesis is

865
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,799
Speaker 1: that even if he were able to express it in

866
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: words like he does when he says I love you,

867
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: that you would freeze up at that.

868
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 3: An ouch.

869
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay. You don't quite trust someone loving you.

870
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: And so no matter how that's expressed, whether he literally

871
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: says to you, I love you, you don't trust it.

872
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,799
Speaker 1: If he gets flowers but words don't come with it,

873
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 1: you don't trust it. And so there will always be

874
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: a way to defend against those feelings of this makes

875
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: me really uncomfortable. I don't know how to receive love,

876
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 1: so I'm going to devalue it, criticize it, and I

877
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: want to just help dismantle the spectrum explanation because I'm

878
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,879
Speaker 1: not saying that that doesn't contribute towards some of what

879
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,359
Speaker 1: the two of you are experiencing. But I think you're

880
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: giving it much more weight than it is actually contributing

881
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 1: to what's going on between the two of you.

882
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 3: You're right.

883
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 2: The irony is that we often, as therapists, say to people,

884
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 2: don't look at what someone says. Words are cheap. Look

885
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 2: at what they do that will tell you their true feelings.

886
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 2: It's advice we give a lot of the time, but

887
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,240
Speaker 2: it's valid here because look at what he does. He gets,

888
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 2: the flowers, he gets, the chocolates. He even says I

889
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 2: love you and I miss you, So he's communicating quite

890
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 2: a bit about his feelings. It's so much to take

891
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: in for you, you're so not used to it. But

892
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 2: if you can remember that in part, what you're complaining

893
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 2: about is that he doesn't make you feel enough that

894
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 2: he loves you when he's actually making you feel it

895
00:50:43,920 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 2: as much as you can tolerate, you're the one that's

896
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 2: not able to tolerate much more right now. So if

897
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: you can work on responding more to him so he

898
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 2: feels less criticized and that his efforts are seen are

899
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,399
Speaker 2: better than not shrug, he'll be able to do more,

900
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 2: even if not say more, And you might be able

901
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 2: to absorb more. And that's a better cycle to be

902
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,439
Speaker 2: in him doing more, you absorbing more, you expressing more,

903
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 2: him feeling more than doing more. That would be a

904
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 2: great cycle for you. Guys.

905
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 3: Wow, that.

906
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,479
Speaker 2: Good job of staying with us. By the way, thank

907
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 2: you not dissociating because you're really paying attention. It's hard, yes,

908
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 2: but you're doing a great job.

909
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:32,600
Speaker 1: We saw that it was hard, and at the same time,

910
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:35,439
Speaker 1: I think sometimes you don't realize how capable you are.

911
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,600
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Thank you, guys, Thank you. Laurie.

912
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 2: Melissa is really on a journey here in terms of

913
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 2: discovering her emotional world. I'm very curious to see where

914
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,439
Speaker 2: she would be in five years or in ten years

915
00:51:56,440 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: if she continued on this journey, because she's truly at

916
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 2: the beginning of a process that I hope will be

917
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 2: much more extended and run much deeper in all kinds

918
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 2: of ways. And so I hope she'll be able to

919
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 2: pull off what we've asked her to do without feeling

920
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 2: too dissociated or too frozen by the emotion that comes up.

921
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that, and I was so glad

922
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 1: that we were able to hear the part about her

923
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:29,200
Speaker 1: husband saying I love you and bringing her flowers. I

924
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: was so moved by that, And you could see that

925
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 1: she wanted to be moved by that, because we could

926
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: see it in her body language and in her smile.

927
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 1: But you can also see how much she feels like

928
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,720
Speaker 1: she needs to protect herself from any kind of emotion,

929
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: whether it's an emotion that seems negative because of how

930
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: she associates emotionality with what she experienced growing up, or

931
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: even emotions that seem positive, like I miss you, I

932
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: love you, leaving flowers, leaving chocolates, and exactly the way

933
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: she wants it. But I also feel like that's a

934
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: defense against her being able to really take in love.

935
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: And so I'm excited to hear whether going back to

936
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:16,280
Speaker 1: her kids and validating their emotions will feel somewhat healing

937
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: for her as well as for the kids, and also

938
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: whether noticing her own resistance to expressing emotion in her

939
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: marriage will bring out something different in her husband. You're

940
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll be

941
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 1: back after a short break.

942
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 2: We heard from Melissa and we had asked it to

943
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 2: do a few tasks, all of which are going to

944
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 2: be emotionally uncomfortable for her. So let's see how she did.

945
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 4: Hey, Lari and Guy, I just wanted to update you

946
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 4: and like you know how my week was going. This week,

947
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 4: I managed to validate my children twice, and I noticed

948
00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:13,399
Speaker 4: a few things. One is it's much easier to do

949
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,760
Speaker 4: it not in the moment. The second thing I noticed

950
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 4: is originally I believed that it would like reignite them

951
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 4: if I bought it up. But I think that isn't true.

952
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 4: I think the truth is I'm really really scared. I

953
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 4: find it very hard to actually get the words of

954
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:35,680
Speaker 4: validation out. It's so hard to be present. Both times

955
00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 4: I ended up crying. I felt my stomach clench. It

956
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 4: was hard for me. But I did notice my children

957
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 4: did calm down quicker, and I did notice also that

958
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 4: it created a closeness. I was able to do a

959
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 4: lot more eye contact that felt really good, you know,

960
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,240
Speaker 4: much as I want that closeness like more than anything

961
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 4: in the world. I'm also petrified of it. But the

962
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 4: second thing I noticed was with my husband. I tried

963
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,839
Speaker 4: to be way more aware of the ways that he

964
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 4: really is acting loving towards me. And you know, the

965
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 4: stories that I really told myself regarding his ability or

966
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 4: inability and my parts on not picking up on his

967
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 4: social cues of his messages of love. And I actually

968
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 4: share this with him. I shared with him how hard

969
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 4: it is for me to you know, pick up on

970
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 4: the love. And I told him to please cue me

971
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 4: if he's doing something loving. And I'm you know, just

972
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 4: dismissing it. But I did notice he said a few

973
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 4: things and I just told him, you know, that means

974
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 4: a lot to me, and I smiled and I accepted it.

975
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 4: It really felt awesome, and I noticed, as there's a result,

976
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 4: I'm feeling a little closer to him. One night this week,

977
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 4: I was just lying on his arm, just feeling close

978
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 4: to him, and you know, and I said to him

979
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,880
Speaker 4: something I've never said to him before. I said, you know, honey,

980
00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 4: I feel like I'm home and I don't think I've

981
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 4: ever felt that before. And if that's not closeness. I'm

982
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:12,319
Speaker 4: not sure what it is, so again, I want you

983
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 4: to thank you so much for all you've done to

984
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 4: help guide me along this journey.

985
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 1: I think Melissa did an excellent job with both her

986
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 1: kids and her husband. And what I love so much

987
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: was this concept of the feedback loop that sometimes people say,

988
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 1: I have trouble interacting with these other people, and they

989
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 1: don't realize their own role in it. So once she

990
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 1: was able with her kids to calm down and come

991
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: back to them in a moment when she could gather herself,

992
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,279
Speaker 1: her kids felt seen and heard and understood and they

993
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: calmed down, and then again with that feedback loop, she

994
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: was calmer with them, and I think with the husband

995
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,719
Speaker 1: there was that feedback loop too, where she did thing beautiful.

996
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 1: She said, I want you to cue me when you're

997
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,040
Speaker 1: doing something loving in case I miss it, and then

998
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,960
Speaker 1: she was able to move closer to him, and that

999
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 1: moment at the end where she said, you know, I

1000
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 1: feel closer to my entire family now, and that beautiful

1001
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,439
Speaker 1: way of expressing it where she said, I was lying

1002
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: down with my husband and I told him that I

1003
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: feel like I'm home.

1004
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 2: I loved it too, I really did and what I

1005
00:57:25,040 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 2: really liked about it is that there were two leaps

1006
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 2: of faith. We were making the point with her. Emotion

1007
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 2: validation is scary. You're going to someone and saying you

1008
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,120
Speaker 2: understand why they're having these intense emotions. It feels like

1009
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,640
Speaker 2: you're igniting them. But when somebody feels understood, it does

1010
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 2: the opposite. And I remember she was a skeptic a

1011
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 2: bit when we said it. She tried it, she saw it,

1012
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 2: and the same thing with her husband. You know, the

1013
00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 2: paradox is he's closed off. If I open up, I'll

1014
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,640
Speaker 2: only feel more distant when he's closed off. But if

1015
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 2: you open yourself up to him, then you'll end up

1016
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 2: feeding closer. It wasn't obvious to her that these things

1017
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 2: will actually have the emotional impact for her that they did,

1018
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 2: But she took that leap of faith. She did it spectacularly,

1019
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 2: and I'm so glad that she got the results that

1020
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 2: she got because of it.

1021
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 1: I am too, And I hope what Melissa takes away,

1022
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,040
Speaker 1: and also what our listeners take away, is that when

1023
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 1: other people feel understood and we let them know that

1024
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:29,000
Speaker 1: we understand them, we start to feel more understood too.

1025
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: Next week we'll get updates from last season sessions to

1026
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: find out how our advice worked out a year later.

1027
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 5: The aha moment was how you cast my relationship with

1028
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:50,640
Speaker 5: Blake as this pseudo parent and child's kind of relationship.

1029
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 5: That helped me feel less confused about what it was

1030
00:58:56,120 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 5: that Blake was looking towards me for and what it

1031
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 5: is that he's looking for me.

1032
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,919
Speaker 1: Now, Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

1033
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

1034
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

1035
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

1036
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

1037
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1038
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 2: Bigo Smooth, email us at Lorian Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1039
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1040
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

1041
00:59:35,040 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

1042
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: Wright and to our podcast fairy Godmother Katie Kuric.

1043
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

1044
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:50,840
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio,