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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Barbed Left Podcast. My

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Speaker 1: guest today is Reman with the Magic Mean Yes what

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Speaker 1: origin himself? What are you doing? Pretty well, considering Bob,

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Speaker 1: considering what we've been through and you know, and and

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Speaker 1: the frustration of not being able to work as much

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Speaker 1: as we want to. But there we are, okay. So

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Speaker 1: have you coped with a lockdown? Well? I have to

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Speaker 1: say that the first two months I was really enjoying because, um,

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Speaker 1: I'm here with my wife. I've never spent a spring

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Speaker 1: since we've been in this house, which is in the

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Speaker 1: past six years, and it's in the most beautiful setting,

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Speaker 1: and I've never had the chance to share with her,

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Speaker 1: you know, everything coming out in wonderful bloom and walking

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Speaker 1: and being able to spend time with her. I've always

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Speaker 1: been on tour somewhere, which is fine in itself. But

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Speaker 1: for those first two months, it was like a justified

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Speaker 1: holiday and something that we really enjoyed together. But I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you what, after about four or five months, I

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Speaker 1: just had enough And now I'm screaming because we started

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Speaker 1: a new album and um, I'd already ready written three

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Speaker 1: songs for it, and we we got into a finished

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Speaker 1: stage and we were really feeling like we were rocking UM,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly we couldn't do anymore. And and uh,

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Speaker 1: we did another couple of tracks where I could actually

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Speaker 1: use technology as it is and sending over what we

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Speaker 1: used to call the tapes a long time ago to

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Speaker 1: UM to a bass player who lives in Denmark and

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Speaker 1: he would put his part on, you know, in the

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Speaker 1: way that people do like that. But I love, actually

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Speaker 1: on some of the songs the whole band to be together,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes it can take you in a direction, even

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Speaker 1: when you're on sound check and you think you've got

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Speaker 1: something that really works, UM, but it tells you within

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Speaker 1: a couple of minutes no, that that that's that's not

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Speaker 1: how I thought it would be at all, and you

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Speaker 1: take it into a different direction. And so we've got

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Speaker 1: our first meeting and rehearsal together and recording with the

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Speaker 1: whole band again together UM in two weeks time, and

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Speaker 1: I'm so looking forward to that. I have to say, now,

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Speaker 1: you say you're in this beautiful occasion for the last

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Speaker 1: six years without giving the address, generally speaking, where is it.

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Speaker 1: It's in It's in Hampshire, UM, and I'm about an

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Speaker 1: hour south of London and it's in the beginnings of

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Speaker 1: what is known as the South Downs National Park. So

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Speaker 1: the countryside around here is absolutely glorious. Um And I

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Speaker 1: had no idea it was as absolutely lovely as this,

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Speaker 1: but it really really is. Everywhere you go in whatever

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Speaker 1: direction you go, you go through gorgeous villages, gorgeous protected countryside.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a very lucky place to be.

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Speaker 1: I think we're very lucky. So if you've only been

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Speaker 1: there for six years, where were you before and what

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Speaker 1: motivated you to here? We were actually in a house

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Speaker 1: that we've been in for thirty eight years in Beforshire,

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Speaker 1: which is north of London. Um, in a little village

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Speaker 1: called Silso and Stilso was a lovely little village when

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Speaker 1: we first moved into it, but as is the way

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Speaker 1: of the world, it got gradually built built up more

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Speaker 1: and more, and bypasses and and main traffic roads went

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Speaker 1: all around the place. Um and it's I think we've

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Speaker 1: just got out in time. My wife said, UM, if

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Speaker 1: we are going to move, we've got to do it

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Speaker 1: now before we get too old. So so we made

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Speaker 1: that decision. Okay, generally speaking, are you turned on creatively

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Speaker 1: by the city or by the country's isolation help or

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Speaker 1: does inspiration come from other actions going downtown people come in. Well,

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Speaker 1: I mean anything can give you a little bit of inspiration.

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Speaker 1: And when when you're in lockdown and you're not doing

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Speaker 1: anything at all, um that that's not the greatest place

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Speaker 1: to be. Um. I always remember Charlie Parker reading about

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Speaker 1: Charlie Parker saying that UM to a young Miles Davis.

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Speaker 1: I think it was so it might have been somebody

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Speaker 1: else saying, listen, whatever you do, even if it's just

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Speaker 1: a walk outside down the alleyway in between sets, do

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Speaker 1: it so that you get some sort of outside input

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Speaker 1: that can just I don't know, just broaden your perception

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Speaker 1: a little bit, you know, in whatever way. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's very true. Actually, I think you do need

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Speaker 1: um other things going on. And I have to say

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Speaker 1: the more I've been in lockdown that to some degree,

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Speaker 1: the less I've wanted to go out, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's a good thing. Um Well, I found the

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Speaker 1: same thing in that I'm almost you know, the first

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Speaker 1: month or two of lockdown, people called you haven't heard

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Speaker 1: from in years. Then that stop. It's like I don't

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Speaker 1: want an intermediate zone. I want to be hunkered down

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Speaker 1: and then if everything's open, I'll go out in between.

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Speaker 1: It is just too frustrating. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. So how

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Speaker 1: have you filled the time you're reading, you're listening and

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Speaker 1: s eating? Would even doing? Yeah, I mean I have

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Speaker 1: to say so that much really current music, and um,

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Speaker 1: I mean maybe that's just a factor of my age. Really, UM,

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Speaker 1: I still do you know what. I still go back

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Speaker 1: sometimes and play the early Ray Charles records or UM

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Speaker 1: or the Miles Davis um albums Night when he first

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Speaker 1: got together with John Coltry and Canniball Laderie, and I

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Speaker 1: can still sing some of the solos on those very

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Speaker 1: first records that I that I got to know in

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Speaker 1: those days. And I've got a jukebox, and my jukebox

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Speaker 1: is full of early Elvis and Little Richard and and

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Speaker 1: you know all those all those things, um, And I

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Speaker 1: do find from my limited perception, I do find quite

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Speaker 1: a lot of modern music. Not everything, but quite a

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Speaker 1: lot of modern music, a little bit mechanical in in

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Speaker 1: just it's just the way it affects me. And I

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Speaker 1: often think that where and when we started out to

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Speaker 1: make anything work, you had to make You had to

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Speaker 1: have a structure that worked. You have to you have

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Speaker 1: to write something with a good chord sequence with um,

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Speaker 1: with something that just works and builds and has a shape. Um.

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Speaker 1: And these days it's to make something work. You can

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Speaker 1: every everybody samples things, and you can just loop a

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Speaker 1: drum loop and you can get a great sounding little

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Speaker 1: bass loop and throw that on and and and it

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Speaker 1: sounds like a groove immediately. And you can put two

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Speaker 1: or three things together and it almost sounds like a record.

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Speaker 1: And and then you auto shoot the vocals and you

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Speaker 1: get that sort of metallic sound on the voice that

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Speaker 1: everyone seems to have these days. Um. You know, I

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm this is a huge generalization, and I

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Speaker 1: quite understand that. No. I mean, the you know there

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Speaker 1: thinking amongst older people is if you trash the younger music,

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Speaker 1: you just don't get it. It's a nege. But we

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Speaker 1: lived through the Renaissance. I mean, I always say, like

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Speaker 1: in painting and sculpture, there was only one renaissance. They've

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Speaker 1: been painting and sculpting since then and the era certainly

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Speaker 1: you were a member of that in the sixties and

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Speaker 1: the seventies. That's why they call it classic rock, but

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Speaker 1: switching gears a little bit. You talk about your wife,

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Speaker 1: You've only been married once, right, I've only been married once.

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Speaker 1: I met my wife when she was eighteen and I

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Speaker 1: was twenty two. Uh, and we we sort of lived

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Speaker 1: together for a few years and then we got married

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two. And I'll tell you what, Bob,

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Speaker 1: and this is not just sentimentality. We're happier now than

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Speaker 1: we've ever been. Okay, what was she doing when you

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Speaker 1: were she was eighteen? And where were you at in

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Speaker 1: your career when you were twenty two? Um, when I

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Speaker 1: was twenty two, we'd already I was nineteen when she's

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Speaker 1: not there, became a number one record in cash box. Um,

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Speaker 1: and our first gig in America was at the Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: Fox Mary the Case Show Christmas Day in nineteen sixty four,

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Speaker 1: and we were we were scared shitless actually, because we

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Speaker 1: we thought, here we are five skinny, young white Englishman

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Speaker 1: and we're going to go and play with some of

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Speaker 1: our heroes, like you know, Benny King, Patty LaBelle was

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Speaker 1: on there, Um, Dion Warrick, and and we thought they're

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Speaker 1: gonna hate us because they're gonna say these guys coming

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Speaker 1: over and creaming, you know, creaming everything, and they're just

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Speaker 1: bringing back American music. But it's a pale imitation. But

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Speaker 1: that wasn't the way they they looked at it at all.

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Speaker 1: And I remember we actually walked into the Brooklyn Fox

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Speaker 1: and we had a sound check and the person sound

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Speaker 1: checking before us was Patty LaBelle, and we thought, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, you know, how how are we gonna you know,

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Speaker 1: we were nineteen years old, how are we gonna follow that?

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Speaker 1: But you know, we did, and she became a really

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Speaker 1: good friend and she introduced us to remember her saying,

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Speaker 1: there's this young kid on the block. You've really got

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Speaker 1: to check out our names a wreatha. And this was

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Speaker 1: the day. These were the days before Aretha was a

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Speaker 1: soul singer. She was doing her cabaret thing with CBS

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Speaker 1: UM and uh and she told us about Nina Simone

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Speaker 1: and it was just wonderful, and she would she would

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Speaker 1: just talk to us every night and tell us about

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Speaker 1: the Black Church and how that affected how they sang,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and how obviously Aretha came up and

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Speaker 1: probably Nina as well, and how she came up and

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Speaker 1: how that affected her um her style of singing, and

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Speaker 1: obviously that's where Ray Charles came from in the first

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Speaker 1: place as well. Um, and it was just it was

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Speaker 1: just wonderful. But you're totally right, I I think I

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Speaker 1: was so so fortunate to be born in the time

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Speaker 1: of what was a great cultural explosion because we just

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Speaker 1: had the war and in the UK ten years after

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Speaker 1: the war there was real austerity, that really was and

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Speaker 1: suddenly the younger generation started to get a little bit

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Speaker 1: of money. Um, we heard Elvis, which actually lew our

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Speaker 1: socks off. I mean, for me, it was like hearing

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Speaker 1: black music by proxy, because I had never heard any

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Speaker 1: rhythm and blues at that point. And I know I'm

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Speaker 1: not the only one. I mean it was the same

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Speaker 1: for the Beatles, for Van Morrison, Eric Burden, all these guys. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it was just a wonderful time to be ensconced

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Speaker 1: in all that. And and I mentioned the early Miles

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Speaker 1: Davis group that was fantastic as well, huge energy, but

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Speaker 1: really really inventive and and and the wonderful thing was

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Speaker 1: that the older guy, once we were lucky enough to

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Speaker 1: get a record deal, the older guys in the record

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Speaker 1: business didn't understand what was going on. They hadn't got

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Speaker 1: a clue, so they left it up to the bands.

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Speaker 1: They left it up to them to follow whatever direction

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Speaker 1: they wanted because they were from a previous generation. And

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Speaker 1: it meant that there was none of this um product

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Speaker 1: management all the time, and all the sort of DJ

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Speaker 1: what do you call it, playlists and and and and

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Speaker 1: very governed you know, playlists or anything like that. And

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Speaker 1: you know what, the people the public absolutely adored that.

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Speaker 1: They ended adored the real enthusiasm of the DJs who

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Speaker 1: would get knocked out by a particular record and play

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Speaker 1: it and play and that enthusiasm really infected the listening audience.

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Speaker 1: It was just a fantastic time. Um, we'll get back

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Speaker 1: to that time. Let's just kind of close the loop

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Speaker 1: on this. So how did you How did you meet

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Speaker 1: your wife? I met my wife because sorry, I was

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Speaker 1: whispering on there and going around and around the houses.

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Speaker 1: But when we did them marry the case show, Um,

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Speaker 1: there was some choreography that was going on on the show,

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Speaker 1: and there was the choreographer was a woman called or

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Speaker 1: a girl called Molly Malloyer, and she got married to

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Speaker 1: she started going out with Paul Atkinson and guitarres and

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Speaker 1: eventually married him. And she came over to the UK

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Speaker 1: and she formed a dance company and my wife was

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Speaker 1: the lead dancer in that in that dance company at

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Speaker 1: that time. And I went to Um, I went to

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Speaker 1: a party one night. UM, and uh, she grew up.

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Speaker 1: My my wife grew up with someone called Arlene Phillips,

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Speaker 1: who who who has made a name as a choreographer

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Speaker 1: over here, and she's been on the you know, the

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Speaker 1: dance programs and everything. Um. And I thought she had

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Speaker 1: the most beautiful face I've ever seen in my life.

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Speaker 1: And uh, Colin the bastard actually got in there before

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Speaker 1: me and said and invited her out and actually took

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Speaker 1: her out. And I had phoned Colin up because Colin

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Speaker 1: and I we've always been really good friends and and

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Speaker 1: Colin and I I had this thing where we wouldn't

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Speaker 1: try and step on each other's toes if when it

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Speaker 1: came to girls, you know. So I phoned him up

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Speaker 1: and said, look, I know this is really unusual, Colin,

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Speaker 1: but would you mind if I I said, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: pretty besotted with Kathy. Would you mind if I gave

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Speaker 1: a call And he said, listen, mate, He said, you

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Speaker 1: might you might even marry her. Ha ha. So so

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Speaker 1: so go ahead if you feel that strongly. So I did,

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Speaker 1: and then went out with her and we we never

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Speaker 1: looked back, really, I mean we It was a pretty

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Speaker 1: loose relationship for maybe two two or three years. Then

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Speaker 1: we moved in together, and then we got married. So

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Speaker 1: how do you keep it together? The itinerant life of

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Speaker 1: a musician? I know, Well, the thing was because maybe

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Speaker 1: because her life started as a dancer. She became an

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Speaker 1: analystic psychotherapist in the second half of her life, but

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Speaker 1: in that first half of the life, she was a dancer,

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Speaker 1: so she understood, um, what creativity was and how you

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Speaker 1: had to follow it, etcetera, etcetera. And she was always,

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Speaker 1: you know, wonderful about that. I still feel very guilty

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Speaker 1: now when we go on tour, because you know, we often, Bob,

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Speaker 1: we often do three tours a year in America. Um,

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Speaker 1: and that means a long time away. Um. And I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't say we're isolated here, but it's, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's a pretty secluded spot and uh. And

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Speaker 1: I often feel that I'm being very unfair to her,

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Speaker 1: but in actual fact, um, it's it's worked beautifully. I

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Speaker 1: mean maybe that helps in a way because it always

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Speaker 1: feels great when we get back together again. And how

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Speaker 1: many kids do you have and what are they up to? Now?

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Speaker 1: We've got two kids. A daughter is actually an academic

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Speaker 1: but she um is living with her husband in Austria.

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Speaker 1: And we've got one grandson, which is the only one

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Speaker 1: we're going to get which is which is her son.

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Speaker 1: And and my son unfortunately has some mental health problems.

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Speaker 1: But he met a lovely girl who was actually a

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Speaker 1: great university um uh when she had a mental breakdown

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Speaker 1: and they got together and they've been together now for

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Speaker 1: twenty years. Um. And that's fantastic. And my wife and

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Speaker 1: my daughter is very very happy in Austria uh and

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Speaker 1: having a great life. So you know, we have to

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Speaker 1: count a blessings really, I think. And are they off

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Speaker 1: the pay roll they make it independently or you help

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Speaker 1: them out. I don't have to help my daughter out

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Speaker 1: at all. Her and her family are doing brilliantly well. Um.

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Speaker 1: But and she writes academic books and one thing and another,

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Speaker 1: and she's the most beautiful girl as well. She looks fantastic,

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Speaker 1: which she's not a girl anymore now she's you know,

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Speaker 1: for they thought it, um, but my son I help

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Speaker 1: out and I account myself in the most privileged position

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Speaker 1: to be able to be in a position where I

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Speaker 1: can continue to support them so that they don't have

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Speaker 1: to live off the government or whatever. So they have

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Speaker 1: a good life. It's fairly sheltered life, but you know,

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Speaker 1: they're very happy. So I'm I'm very happy with that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's go back to the beginning. Where in the UK

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Speaker 1: are you originally from St Alban's which is a little

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Speaker 1: It's not a little, it's a city twenty miles outside London,

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Speaker 1: north of London, and lived there for when we went

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Speaker 1: to Bedfordshire that that's only up the road as well,

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Speaker 1: because I always wanted to be in touch with my

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Speaker 1: mom and dad as well. My dad was a a

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Speaker 1: a dance band musician from the age of seventeen to

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Speaker 1: the age of eighty three. There was a there was

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Speaker 1: a wonderful moment when we had a guy doing our

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Speaker 1: boiler in sils and he came up and said, what's

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Speaker 1: your dad? Then? Is he is he a musician at all?

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Speaker 1: I said, yeah, he's he's got his own dance band,

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Speaker 1: he's and is he how old is he? I said,

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Speaker 1: what is as one now? And he went, oh, my god,

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Speaker 1: and I said um. And just the other day he

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Speaker 1: was complaining he wasn't getting enough work. Okay, so you're

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Speaker 1: growing up at St. Alban's. How many kids in the family, Um,

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Speaker 1: just two. In our family, my mom was was one

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Speaker 1: of eight children, UM, and and all the brothers and sisters.

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Speaker 1: Her brothers and sisters had kids, and some of them

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Speaker 1: had three four kids. I think one of them had

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Speaker 1: five actually, So I had a huge number of cousins

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Speaker 1: and they all stayed around the Stormers area, so there

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Speaker 1: was always a very good family social scene around St. Orban's.

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Speaker 1: We all lived very close and we all used to

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Speaker 1: visit each other. My my closest cousin was Jim Rodford,

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Speaker 1: the guy who was later in the Kinks but formed

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Speaker 1: Argent with me um and later in the Incarnation of

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Speaker 1: the Zombies. UM. And he became a mentor of mine

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Speaker 1: because he was four years older than me, and he

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Speaker 1: was the guy that introduced me to the music at Elvis. UM.

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Speaker 1: I remember one day I went down to his house,

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Speaker 1: only four dred yards away. His mom was my mom's

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Speaker 1: best friend, and um, he was playing me some Bill Haley,

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Speaker 1: and I said, well, it's all right, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't mind it, okay, okay, And he said, well, let's

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Speaker 1: listen to this, and he played me handled and it

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Speaker 1: just blew me away, blew my world away, spun my

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Speaker 1: world around, and then to my parents horror. For six months,

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to hear anything but the royalst rock

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Speaker 1: and roll. I could get my hands on Little Richard

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Speaker 1: as it was at the time, you know, Jerry Lee

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Speaker 1: Lewis of course, um and then that quickly introduced me

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Speaker 1: to Ray Charls and all that sort of thing. But

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Speaker 1: it was a very very musical family. My mom got

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Speaker 1: me involved in a great choir from the Asia of

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Speaker 1: about ten years old, and that gave me a real,

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Speaker 1: really broad sort of panoply of a sort of umbrella

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Speaker 1: of music. And and by almost by the condition of

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Speaker 1: os Moses, I sort of you know, drew that in

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Speaker 1: and and and it exposed me to stuff that I

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Speaker 1: would never have heard otherwise, wonderful music by Bark and

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Speaker 1: you know all the other things. But at the same time,

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Speaker 1: that's when we started the zombies, and and I couldn't

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Speaker 1: bear to tell the master of the music that I

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00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,919
Speaker 1: was going off early on a Sunday evening to do

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Speaker 1: a gig with the zombies of rock and roll, gimee

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00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:14,920
Speaker 1: with the zombies, you know, and at one for a second, sorry,

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Speaker 1: did your mother work outside the home? She didn't know

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Speaker 1: what she did much later in her life she did.

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Speaker 1: When you were growing up, she didn't. And that was

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Speaker 1: your was your father's main source of income. The group

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Speaker 1: know that his main source of income was as an

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Speaker 1: aeronautical engineer. He worked in a in a the hat

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Speaker 1: Field Aeronautical Works, which was about five miles away from St. Orban's.

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Speaker 1: And Colin came from Hatfield, and you know that that

348
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Speaker 1: provided a link as well. But I don't think and

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Speaker 1: his father worked there too. Um, Jim's father worked there,

350
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Speaker 1: but I don't think they. I mean, obviously Jim's father

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Speaker 1: and my father knew each other, but I don't think

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Speaker 1: Colin's father ever did. But there we are, okay, and

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Speaker 1: your sibling older, younger male female. It's it's my sister

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Speaker 1: and she's ten years tipped between ten eleven years younger

355
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Speaker 1: than me. Okay, so you're the golden child and you're

356
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Speaker 1: growing up in St Alban. Sounds like your father made

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Speaker 1: a good living, so it wasn't like you were economically struggling. Well,

358
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,439
Speaker 1: we weren't economically struggling struggling, but we lived in a

359
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Speaker 1: council house. We lived in a council house, UM, and

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Speaker 1: my father UM was making out the time twenty pounds

361
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Speaker 1: a week. UM. This was in which was much more

362
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Speaker 1: of an average wage, but a lowish average wage at

363
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Speaker 1: the time. And you're growing up, you're going to school.

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Speaker 1: What kind of student were you? Were you popular? Do

365
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Speaker 1: you fit in? And we're more of a loner. I

366
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Speaker 1: was fairly much of a loner. I mean not completely loner. Um.

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Speaker 1: It was a school that my mother really wanted me

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Speaker 1: to get into. It's it's what we call a public

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Speaker 1: school over here, which is it's like a private school

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Speaker 1: to either. It's only called public because I think King

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Speaker 1: King Henry the eighth um designated a few schools for

372
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Speaker 1: the children of the clergy or something like that, so

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Speaker 1: it became more of a public school anyway. I had

374
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Speaker 1: to take an exam. I got a scholarship to go there,

375
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Speaker 1: which was a very good start. But after being in

376
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Speaker 1: the sort of B form, I quickly was pushed down

377
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Speaker 1: to the C form and it wasn't until the streams

378
00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 1: divided and I could concentrate on the arts rather than

379
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Speaker 1: the arts and the sciences that that I started to

380
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Speaker 1: make more of a mark academically. Um. And there was

381
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Speaker 1: only one thing I was ever any good at, bob,

382
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Speaker 1: and that was English. And and I would have certainly

383
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Speaker 1: gone to university at the time if it hadn't been

384
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Speaker 1: for the band starting to take off. But so so

385
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 1: that route was then closed to me. Um. But you know,

386
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,560
Speaker 1: but it was a very it was. It was a

387
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 1: pretty highly rated school. Okay, so you're growing up, when

388
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Speaker 1: do you start taking the piano or whatever you take lessons? Well,

389
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Speaker 1: I only ever had two years piano lessons in my life,

390
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Speaker 1: and that was between the ages of nine, nine and eleven,

391
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Speaker 1: Between the ages of nine years old and eleven years old. Yeah, Um,

392
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Speaker 1: And you know what, in that time, I played the

393
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Speaker 1: piano less than, uh, than I ever did before or afterwards.

394
00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 1: I always I could always pick out a tune on

395
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Speaker 1: the piano, and in fact, strangely enough, I remember my

396
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: parents buying me a harmonica when I was about seven

397
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,560
Speaker 1: or eight years old, And somehow I always had this

398
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: um facility to look at music visually and and I

399
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,560
Speaker 1: could always work out where the tune had to go

400
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,879
Speaker 1: when I was playing the harmonica, because I could I

401
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: could work out that this was a whole whole tone,

402
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: that was a whole tone, that was a half tone.

403
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: It just seemed natural to me somehow, so I could

404
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 1: always play a tune on anything that people gave me.

405
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,960
Speaker 1: When I first picked up a guitar, I I saw

406
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 1: immediately that, you know, two threats was a tone and

407
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 1: then just one threats half a tone, So I could

408
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 1: always do that. UM and I played by air really

409
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,399
Speaker 1: and when I when I had the piano lessons, it

410
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,080
Speaker 1: gave me the very basic grounding of what mew of

411
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: what notes were and how they associated with notes on

412
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: the piano. And then when I was in the choir

413
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 1: it showed when I when we were singing, we obviously

414
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: sang by music all the time, so that gave me

415
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: a good grounding there. But that was it, really, And

416
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,840
Speaker 1: and then I started playing by here. I remember there

417
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: was a song called Swinging Shepherd Blues. That was the

418
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: first thing I ever worked out the piano. It was

419
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,719
Speaker 1: a hit hit song before rock and roll. UM, and

420
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: I thought I discovered the whole secret of Western harmony

421
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 1: because I just I played everything in the key of

422
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: C at the time, and I worked out that if

423
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,639
Speaker 1: you played you know what I know now know as

424
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: a triad, you know, a basic call of C, C, E,

425
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,679
Speaker 1: N G, and then move my hands up there, right

426
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: up all the way up to an octave, that I

427
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 1: could harmonize. I thought almost any melody with one of

428
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 1: those three or four chords that were there. And it

429
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: was much later that I got more sophisticated and started

430
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: to experiment from there. But that was the first thing.

431
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: And that The amazing thing is I only read about

432
00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: a year ago that that Paul McCartney said something very

433
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: very similar. He said, I always tell people that start

434
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 1: to try and play the piano, play everything in the

435
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: key of C, and if you just move those three

436
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: notes all the way up, you can you can harmonize.

437
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: You know, most things are after a fashion. So that

438
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: was how I taught myself. But you know, I wasn't

439
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: alone in that many most people in the world of

440
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: rock and roll ourself took I have to say, so

441
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: you don't read music at this point. At that point

442
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 1: I read music very simply. But I could read music

443
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: because I spent so long in this quiet, which was

444
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: great choir. Um I could I could then site read

445
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: single lines um almost at any level. But that doesn't

446
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: mean that I could translate that to the piano, you know,

447
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: which is much more um um polytonal obviously UM. So

448
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: there were two different things. But when I came off that,

449
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: sorry i'm jumping all over the place here. But when

450
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: I came off the road, um actually with our after Argent,

451
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: because I was between the zombies and Argent. I was

452
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 1: on the road for twelve years, I think something like that.

453
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 1: And then I've just wanted to rest from that for

454
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: a while, and I thought, I'm going to come off

455
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: the road and I'm going to do two things. First

456
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: of all, I'm not going to write anything myself, and

457
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: then secondly, if anything interesting is offered to me, I'll

458
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: do it if I if I think it's interesting. And thirdly,

459
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to learn to sight read. So I took

460
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 1: any piece of music, no matter how difficult or how easy,

461
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 1: put it on the piano in front of me, and

462
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: for a couple of hours every day I would play it.

463
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: I try and play in tempo, but no matter how

464
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: funear really slow it was, I just try and play it,

465
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 1: and it's only like learning a language, you know. After

466
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: a year, I was in a completely different place and

467
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: I could site read pretty much most things. Um So

468
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 1: that was when I taught myself that really, and that

469
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: was when I was oh god, that wasn't about seventy

470
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,119
Speaker 1: six at that point. Okay, let's go back to what

471
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: it was like. Tell us more about the austerity and

472
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: when it goes from black and white to color. Well,

473
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: an example is that things were incredibly austere for I

474
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: would say ten years, but in the UK and certainly

475
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: in England where I was between nineteen, it was incredibly austere.

476
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: And they were the first years of my life really.

477
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,920
Speaker 1: Um I remember everything was rationed. I remember once going

478
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: into a grocery store with my mother, and I remember

479
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: her putting her ration thing down and buying some potatoes.

480
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: And I thought, she's not getting enough potatoes for the

481
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: money she's spending on them. And I picked out another

482
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: one and put it in her basket, and then we

483
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 1: took it home and she and then she said to me,

484
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: you put a potato in the basket, You've got to

485
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: take it back. And I was completely mortified, you know,

486
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 1: and I sort of went back until this potato paper.

487
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: But that was the sort of rationing that was going

488
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 1: on at the time. Um. But then suddenly there was

489
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: a little bit more money. Suddenly things started to change.

490
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: But I remember when I first heard Elvis when I

491
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 1: was eleven. Very soon after that, there was a broadcast

492
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: from America which showed Elvis at one of the very

493
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: very early live shows, this very grainy, black and white thing.

494
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 1: It was probably the ground old opry or something. I

495
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 1: don't know, but it was just like magic to me.

496
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,320
Speaker 1: And I looked at this thing and it was like

497
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: a being from another universe. You know. This didn't seem

498
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: to have any relation to anything that was going on

499
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: in the UK. All the clothes looked totally different. Um.

500
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: The way he was seeing was like nothing I'd ever heard.

501
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: It was the most exciting thing I've ever seen. And

502
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 1: I remember thinking, oh God, I've got to have a

503
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: bit of that in some way or other. And I'm

504
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: sure the whole of the youth of England was thinking

505
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: thinking the same thing. Um. You know. It was just

506
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: like a huge wave crashing on the on the shore. Um.

507
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: And and that lasted really for for for some time. UM.

508
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: And incidentally, the most extraordinary thing was when we finally

509
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: went over to the Marry the K show. We learned

510
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: much later in the nineties when I was having an

511
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,360
Speaker 1: interview with the DJ, that Elvis had three of my

512
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: songs on his jukebox and this was what what was this, Bob?

513
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: Eight years well, the beginning of it was eight years

514
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: after I had first seen this being from another planet.

515
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 1: And it's like when I first went to As a contrast,

516
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: when I first went to New York, I hated it

517
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: because it was so full of energy and aggression that

518
00:29:31,480 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: that that was my first impression of it. But in

519
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: fact it became one of my favorite cities because it

520
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: seemed to have an honesty about it at the same time,

521
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: and musically it was just brilliant and you could go

522
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 1: and see anything. I mean, I know, Chris White and

523
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: I um walked into um a jazz club after the

524
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: show one night, and we saw Roland Kirk and we

525
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: were the only two people in in in the jazz

526
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: club apart from a completely dead drunk I and his

527
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: slightly less drunk um woman and and and he was

528
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 1: making loads of noise and everything, and I thought, I

529
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: can't believe this, you know, even then we were starting

530
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,640
Speaker 1: to venerate these guys, you know, And and that was

531
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: the situation. And it seemed and the cars all seemed

532
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: like mobile jukeboxes to me, you know, whereas all the

533
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: English cars look very it's safe, and you know, not

534
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: all of them was the e type jag which was wonderful.

535
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: But apart from that, and they were so big, and

536
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: it was such a such a different world, and and

537
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: and that caused and together with a little bit more

538
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: money coming through, young people started to be taken more seriously.

539
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: And then with the music what I said before about

540
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: the older guys in the record companies not understanding what

541
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: was going on, it gave a great feeling of power

542
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: to the young people. And then of course the Beatles

543
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: hit the scene in nineteen sixty two in the u

544
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: kay a little bit before the US and um, and

545
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: they were a complete breath of fresh air because their

546
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: music had uh grittiness and vitality but huge invention. Um

547
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: it was it was like England winning the World Cup

548
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: every week because particularly when they first went to America,

549
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: suddenly this completely unbelievable thing was happening, whereby they were

550
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: becoming the most important young rock and roll Act. And

551
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: they were English, and this was in America where they

552
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: had all their influences from and where all their idols

553
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: were as well. You know, there's absolutely no no difference

554
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: between them and us in that way. Um and uh.

555
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: And and it was that explosion out of austerity, and

556
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: it really was austere. Every everything was. It felt like

557
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 1: the world was pretty much in black and white when

558
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 1: I when I was ten years old, eleven years old,

559
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: and then it gradually opened up. And then suddenly the

560
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: young people, um started to be able to um cause

561
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: an explosion in in all the arts, in fashion, um,

562
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: you know, in in everything really um. And it just

563
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 1: felt the most exciting time to be young, and the

564
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: young people seemed to have some sort of real power

565
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: for the first time. And I always think that that

566
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: that was to do also with news starting to come

567
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: from you know, Vietnam. That was a little bit later

568
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: of course as well, um, but but where you could

569
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 1: actually see really what was happening in the world for

570
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: the first time, and the young people were making up

571
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 1: their own minds and they were refusing to do some

572
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 1: things that the older people wanted them to do. And

573
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: you know, in in so many ways it was such

574
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: an exciting time. Okay, so you're in the choir at

575
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 1: what point and then you say, ultimately Sunday night, you're

576
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: playing rock and raw. Tell me about the decision a

577
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: former band and what the early adventures in forming bands

578
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 1: were like. Well, okay, in those days, um, the amplification

579
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: and all the equipment was extremely primitive. And at that meeting,

580
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: I've already told you about with Jim Rodford when he

581
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: played me Elvis, he had already formed a skiffle group

582
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: and he played teaches space with a string um and

583
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 1: and and a tea chest, and he up to his

584
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 1: death he could still get some great notes out of

585
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: a teacher space with with string and he would do

586
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 1: occasional nights doing that, which was absolutely fantastic. UM. And

587
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: of course Lonnie Donegan was the first person to bring

588
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: um his version of blues over which was um, you know,

589
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: not not quite the blues of Muddy Waters and Johnny Hooker,

590
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: but it was it was blues and and and people

591
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 1: were becoming enamored with that. Jim had got his band,

592
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: got who were called the Bluetones, and he got and

593
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: they got some of the earliest electrical equipment in the

594
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: whole of the south of England and um he was fifteen.

595
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: I was eleven at that time when he was in

596
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: the skiffle group. UM. I went to see him, maybe

597
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: when I was twelve or third seen and I was

598
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: so blown away by this, and I thought, well, I

599
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: have to in some way or other former band whenever

600
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: I can. UM. And there was one day, UM, a

601
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: couple of years later from that, I think I was

602
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: fifteen when I walked into a form room to see

603
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 1: a friend another form to my own, and Paul Atkinson

604
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: was in the corner. There was a little folk club

605
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: going on and he was playing an acoustic guitar and

606
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: I thought, that guy has got a really good sense

607
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: of rhythm. Um, I wonder if you'd like to be

608
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: in a band And I said, Um, I'm thinking of

609
00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: forming a band. Do you want to join? He said yeah,

610
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: I don't mind. I felt fantastic, right and I thought, okay,

611
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: where can I go from here? And I thought my

612
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: friend who lived close to me was building a bass guitar.

613
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: He never played a note of anything in his life,

614
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: but I went round to his house that night and um,

615
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 1: and I said to him, how's your basically start coming

616
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: on and he said, well it's nearly finished. I said, fantastic.

617
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: I said when will it be finished? He said will

618
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: it be finished this week? Really? I'm I'm there, really

619
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: with it. I said, fantastic. Do you want to be

620
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 1: in a band and he said, well, yeah, I don't mind.

621
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 1: And he said, I've got this mate who sits behind

622
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: me at school. His name was Arnold A. And Colin

623
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:42,399
Speaker 1: Blanstone was b who sat behind him. And he said

624
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: he plays, he plays guitar and he sings a bit.

625
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: I said, bring him along, bring him along, And then

626
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, we just need a drummer now. And

627
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:56,719
Speaker 1: uh as school had an army cadet force. So on

628
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: that Friday I went along to their march past and

629
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: I picked out the guy who on military side drum

630
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: seemed to have the best sense of real And I

631
00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: called him afterwards and said, oh hi, I'm My name

632
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: is rod And who you? He said, I'm Hu and

633
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: and I said do you want to be in the band?

634
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: He said yeah, that would be good. So within two

635
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: weeks we had our first rehearsal. Jim Rodford as always

636
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: a wonderful, wonderfully helpful guy, fantastic enabler, and as I say,

637
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: it was always a mental to me. And he drove me.

638
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: I couldn't drive, and he drove me to our first rehearsal. Um.

639
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: I remember that in the in the the playground, if

640
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: you like, um up break, I was going up to

641
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: Paul Atkinson and said, we should play an instrumental first.

642
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,919
Speaker 1: We should do this song called Malaguena. He goes down,

643
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: la la la la la la la la, you know,

644
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: and and he went, okay, hang on and he kept

645
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: forget sing it, and I kept saying it to him

646
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: at every every break, and he sort of learned that

647
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: we and we all drove up, and we drove up

648
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 1: and we met outside a pub. On this pub, I

649
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: mean we were we were too young to go into it,

650
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,320
Speaker 1: but we met outside and as we pulled out, I

651
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: said to Jim, oh god, I hope that you know.

652
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: The one guy I didn't know was was Colin Bloodstone.

653
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: And there was this guy standing there looking really mean,

654
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 1: with a plaster across his nose, two black eyes, um,

655
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: and he was a rugby player and he broken his nose.

656
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: I said to Jim, oh, my god, I hope that's

657
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: not him. And it was, of course and we went

658
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 1: and had our first rehearsal. We thought we were great.

659
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: I mean we Jim showed Hugh the very first kick

660
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: drum and backbeat that he had ever played, and something

661
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,240
Speaker 1: simple on the symbols, which, to be fair, Hugh picked

662
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 1: up in absolutely no time at all. And then and

663
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: then uh uh we had all the blue tones gear.

664
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: So Paul's bass went through this wonderful fox and um,

665
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 1: and there was another Vox thirty white amp as well.

666
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:12,879
Speaker 1: I think that we the rest of us went through,

667
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 1: including the vocals. Um. And I was supposed to be

668
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: the singer, so we we we We tried out an

669
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: instrumental and Colin kept getting the line wrong, so so um.

670
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: I then wandered over in a break to an old

671
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: beaten up old piano and I played. I started playing Nutrocker,

672
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: the old b Bumbler and the stingers um hit at

673
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: the time, um um dumb da dad, you know, And

674
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 1: he came running over to me and said you sound fantastic.

675
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: He said you've got to play piano in the group,

676
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: and I said, well, not really, no, It's it's not

677
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: as sort of group as the guitar group, isn't it.

678
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: I mean, no, i'm i'm, I'm, I'm I'm going to

679
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 1: be the singer, you know, so he said okay, And

680
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 1: then a few minutes later we had another coffee break.

681
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: He picked up his guitar, started playing an old Rick

682
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: Nelson's song and started singing. I thought, my God, is

683
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: so fantastic. And I went over and said, I had

684
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: no idea you could sing like that. You've got to

685
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: be the singer. And okay, I'll play piano. And then

686
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: for the next two years I suffered the worst beaten up.

687
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: Old acoustic piano is usually at least to SENDI tone

688
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: down from concert pitch, so everyone had to tune down,

689
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: um and and and my life changed the day when

690
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: I found a hone a pianet, the electric pianet that

691
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: we actually used for years, and I did, she's not

692
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: there on that as well. But that's that's that's how

693
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: the fact. And Jim Rodford, I mean, we thought we

694
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: sounded pretty good at that first rehearsal. Then second rehearsal

695
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: when we didn't have the bluetoone s gear, we thought

696
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 1: we sounded terrible. But on that first rehearsal we thought

697
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: we sounded pretty good. And Jim many many years later

698
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: said to us, do you know what at that first rehearsal?

699
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: And I thought, no chance. Okay, so you have that

700
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: first rehearsal, how what year is that? And how long

701
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: after that do you start playing gigs? That was the

702
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: nine We started playing gigs after about nine months. And

703
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: when I say started playing, they were few and far between.

704
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 1: The first gig we had was a corner's rugby club

705
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,840
Speaker 1: and they had a dance band evening and an interval.

706
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: There were about fifteen people there, um you know, probably

707
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: about seven couples and one extra bloke. And in the

708
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: interval we got up and did a half an hour

709
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: set and the half an hour set went down a

710
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: complete storm, even with those few people, and what was

711
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: going on on the terrible amplification and do you know what?

712
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 1: We we then started to build up completely a local scene.

713
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: We never played outside St Orbans. It was always in

714
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 1: St Organs. We played about three church halls always um

715
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: and um. This rugby club and this rugby club became

716
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: After fifteen people on that first gig, we then by

717
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 1: the end, but that was in nineteen sixty two. I

718
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: think when we when we had our first gig, or

719
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 1: maybe late sixty one, but sixty sixty two and then

720
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 1: um by nineties sixty three. UM, they had to have

721
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,719
Speaker 1: a marquee that took four or five hundred people, and

722
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: we used to get four or five hundred people in,

723
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 1: you know, to play our and they only they didn't

724
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: have any proper electrical outlet, so they had a generator,

725
00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: and we knew that the generator would be brilliant for

726
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 1: the first hour. After that it would slowly wind down.

727
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: Eventually there wasn't enough to power my electric piano by

728
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 1: the time I got an electric piano, and I would

729
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: have to just bang a tam Marine and standard. So

730
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: how do you start writing songs? I UM. I always

731
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: thought that the first song I ever wrote was something

732
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 1: called It's all Right with Me, which was on our

733
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: first album UM. But I later found out that I

734
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: had written a song for the Bluetones, unbelievably um uh,

735
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 1: just about the same time that Please Please Me came out.

736
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: And it doesn't sound like it's derivative of Please Please Me,

737
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 1: but it was really um and it does sound a

738
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: bit beatly. But they actually their manager really liked the

739
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: song and he'd gotten to record it in Olympic Studios,

740
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: which was you know, a major major studio that's where

741
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: the Stones used to record, etcetera. UM, and so that

742
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: was the first song I ever wrote. It was called UM,

743
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:44,399
Speaker 1: the Lonely One I think it was called the Lonely

744
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: One UM and UM. So that was the very first song.

745
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 1: The second song we used to do in our Zombies

746
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: set UM it was called It's all Right with Me

747
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 1: and it was like an early rock and roll song,

748
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,400
Speaker 1: UM with a bit of rhythm and blues thrown in.

749
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,799
Speaker 1: Then we won a heart Speat competition and the heart

750
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: Speat competition was it's because it's Heartfordshire, so it was

751
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 1: heart speat play on words UM. And we actually played

752
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: against Jim's band in in the in the final of

753
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:21,319
Speaker 1: this competition UM, along with three other fans as well,

754
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: and we actually won the competition. And after the competition,

755
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: after the after we won the final, UM, there was

756
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 1: a knock on our dressing room door and it was

757
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: Dick Roe, who was the head of Decca Records, and

758
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: he said, we'd like to make a single with you, uh,

759
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: and we said fantastic, okay, So UM, we we thought

760
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: we would record the Gershroing song that we did in

761
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 1: an as set summertime. Um. And we were doing it

762
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: at this very small studio and we got involved then

763
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: through a friend of one of Chris's relatives was a musician.

764
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 1: I think he was. I can't remember in what way,

765
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: but he was. He was, it's quite a well known

766
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: a musician in the business. He said, I've got this

767
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: great friend who's a really good producer. He said, I

768
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: think you should have a professional producer produce your records.

769
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: And we said, well, okay, great, um. And he said also,

770
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: he said, taking the dip Row Decker contract and get

771
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: him to look at it and see if there are

772
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: things in there that shouldn't be in there. And um.

773
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: This guy was called Ken Jones. We met with Ken,

774
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 1: really liked him. He said, Dick Rose contract is pretty good. Actually,

775
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: he said, but there are one of two things that

776
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: I would change in that. And he said, these are

777
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: my suggestions. So we did. Role was fine with that,

778
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: and he changed them and we did our first session.

779
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: And the first session was in two weeks time and

780
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 1: he said, Ken said, you know, if you like, he said,

781
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: I know, we're recording sometimes, he said, but if you like,

782
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,240
Speaker 1: you could try and write something yourselves. So I went away,

783
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: and Chris White went away, and Colin just didn't think

784
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,440
Speaker 1: any more about it, neither neither did the other two guys. Um.

785
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: And then Colin couldn't believe it when when I called

786
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,960
Speaker 1: him and said, I've got this song, can we rehearse it?

787
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: And that was She's Not There? Um, and and that

788
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: you know, and that that really was the third song.

789
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 1: But really I've always felt that was the second song

790
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: I ever wrote, and we recorded that in nineties sixty four,

791
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 1: in the summer of nineties four. Tell me what the

792
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:33,359
Speaker 1: inspiration was and how you wrote She's Not There? Well,

793
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 1: the inspiration was the session coming up, and and the

794
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 1: fact that I was just hugely, hugely enthusiastic about music,

795
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 1: I mean about any kind of music, but particularly rock

796
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 1: and roll at the time, and particularly the Beatles that

797
00:45:47,480 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: had just exploded onto the scene and loved, loved everything

798
00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: that they brought to rock and roll music at that time. UM.

799
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: So I desperately wanted to be part of that, and

800
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: I desperately wanted to write. And with that naivety and

801
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: arrogance that you always have, maybe only once when you're

802
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: you know, seventeen or eighteen years old, I thought yeah,

803
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 1: I can write something that's as good as the Beatles,

804
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 1: and and Colin is going to sound fantastic singing it,

805
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 1: and the record is going to sound great. I couldn't

806
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: imagine anything else. I you know, years later, my god,

807
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 1: the pitfalls you have when you're recording and you know

808
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 1: the fact that you get a great sound in a

809
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 1: record studio and that everything works is you know, that's

810
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,439
Speaker 1: that's not a higher chance. But at the time, that's

811
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: what I thought happened. Um and and really and so

812
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, I've got I've got a couple of

813
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: weeks to write this. So I went back and I thought, right,

814
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 1: I'll play I'll play a couple of records, try and

815
00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: get in the mood, see if anything triggers an idea.

816
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: And I put an old john Ley Hooker song on

817
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: on to Johnny Hooker album and the first track on

818
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: the album was no One Told Me. Now. I rushed

819
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: to add that the that was the only lyric that

820
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: had anything to do with anything in the song, just

821
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 1: that those opening three words no one. No One told me?

822
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,480
Speaker 1: Um And I thought, you know that that sort of

823
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 1: trips off the tongue. I like the way that trips

824
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: all the time, I thought I'm gonna I thought to myself,

825
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna we've a story around that. And the one

826
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 1: the one thing in my mind immediately I have to say,

827
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: was the structure of the song. And I thought, I

828
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: want to start it with a um, something that has

829
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: a really blues melody, a blues scale for the melodic

830
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: part of it, you know, for the verse um, and

831
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: that's based around like a minor blues scale UM. And

832
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,800
Speaker 1: then the second part of the song, I want to

833
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: go into three part harmony because we always used to

834
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 1: do a lot of harmony right from the beginning actually,

835
00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: and I thought that would be great, you know, to

836
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: include lots of harmony. And then the third part of

837
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: this song, which turned out to be We'll let me

838
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: tell you about the way she looked and all that

839
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,760
Speaker 1: I wanted to really build and I wanted to change

840
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 1: the meter of the words to help that as well.

841
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: You know, We'll let me tell you about the way

842
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: she looked, the way she acted, you know, put the

843
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: stress in the different things. So it just sort of

844
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: grew and then ended on a major chord, because the

845
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: whole thing was in the minor ended on a major chord.

846
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: And then fell right back down again to a moody

847
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: verse again with a minor blue scar and minor chords,

848
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: and that was the inspiration really UM. And so there

849
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 1: were all sorts of indirect things coming through UM. The

850
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: Beatles were an influence in the sense of wanting to

851
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: have the harmonies, wanting to include all that UM. And

852
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 1: actually Ringo was an influence as well from the Beatles,

853
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: because not not that we copied a riff of his,

854
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: but the way he used to break up the verse

855
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: rhythms quite often, like on Ticket to Ride or UM.

856
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: You know, he would break up the verse rhythm and

857
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 1: then go into a more of a steady group and

858
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: bit and build things from there. I loved that, and

859
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, it would be great to have a

860
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 1: little bit of that involved, which is how the bomb

861
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: but but Blood you know how that came about at

862
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:21,439
Speaker 1: the very beginning UM and uh. Years and years later,

863
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 1: I met Pat Matheney when he was just starting out,

864
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 1: and I thought it was a fantastic the thing that

865
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: I've seen that Joe papsts in New York, UM, and

866
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 1: he was only just starting to get known and it

867
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:36,920
Speaker 1: there was a jazz musician that introduced us, and this

868
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: jazz musician didn't know who I was, no reason why

869
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: he should. And he said, old Pat Metheny, this is that.

870
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 1: What's your name? And said Rod rod Argent and patmtheny

871
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:46,799
Speaker 1: said Rod Argent. He said you're the guy. He said,

872
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: with all that modal stuff you played and she's not there.

873
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: That made me think I had a way ahead doing

874
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: what I wanted to do with fuse, you know, fusing

875
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 1: different elements, etcetera. And I thanked him very much, and

876
00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: I thought to myself, there's nothing modal about she's not there.

877
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: And I went back and what I had originally thought

878
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,800
Speaker 1: was just as simple. I am honored to d chord

879
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,439
Speaker 1: that the melody worked around. I'd actually put a really

880
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: little modal scale without even realizing, because I'd listened to

881
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: a lot of Miles and Milestones, which was the very

882
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: first modal thing that Mars ever did. Was one of

883
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: my first jazz purchases. I could only afford the EP,

884
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: so I bought the EP, and and and so all

885
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: those sort of indirect influences were coming through, and I

886
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: think later on um things from classical music were sort

887
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: of influencing me, but never in a conscious way. Bob.

888
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 1: It was always I thought we were just doing you know,

889
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 1: the equivalent of songs, beatless songs or any other hit

890
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: that was going on at the time, and yet those

891
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: other things sort of found their way through, and I

892
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: think it was I think that was totemic of of

893
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: a lot of English stuff, actually, because I remember talking

894
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: to John Steele from The Animals and he said that

895
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 1: when he played Lethouse the Rising Sun when they recorded it,

896
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 1: he was imagining he was playing the Jimmy Smith record

897
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: of Walk on the wild Side. So you know, those

898
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,879
Speaker 1: very indirect things, um, we we're all around. I think

899
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: so that. I think they were the inspirations of of

900
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 1: of starting to write and if She's not there, okay,

901
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: the Zombies records had a dark quality and that made

902
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: them magical. Was that in the song? Or was that Ken?

903
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: Johns Oh, well, I don't I don't want to sound

904
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: like I'm boasting, but I think it has to be

905
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 1: in the song. Really, Um, I don't think it was

906
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 1: it was Ken. I mean, although you know, I must

907
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,919
Speaker 1: say the you know, the echoes used on Colin's voice,

908
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: particularly She's not there, We're really really good, um, but

909
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: he just really used to master my recordings were done

910
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 1: very very quickly. We rehearsed. We rehearsed at home. Uh,

911
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 1: in my mom's front room actually with the piano. And

912
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: the poor guy next door was on night work, so

913
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:21,560
Speaker 1: that that was that was pretty hard for him. Um,

914
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 1: but he never complained. But um. We used to rehearse

915
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: everything and then we would record, I think in a

916
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: three hour session in those very early days, we might

917
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 1: do three songs in it or yeah in three hours. Okay,

918
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 1: so she's not there, it's cut. Do you think you

919
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: have a hit? How does it become a hit and

920
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: what does that feel like? One of the things we

921
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: did was she's not there was Um. We we recorded

922
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:51,439
Speaker 1: it and we thought it sounded pretty good. I thought

923
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 1: it sounded lovely. We're very excited about it. Um, but

924
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 1: we thought it needed just something else a little bit.

925
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: And so in those days, you recorded on four tracks

926
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 1: and then you mix the four down to one tomorrow

927
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,800
Speaker 1: because there was nothing else. There was just mornow and

928
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 1: as you if you wanted an extra track, as you

929
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: mixed to monow, you would add that extra track. And

930
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: we added a drum track, which put a flame on

931
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: the beginning because originally it was a bomb but but

932
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: but but this became bomb but but plut and and

933
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,759
Speaker 1: and then just a little bit extra on the on

934
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: the bridge into the chorus. UM, and that for me,

935
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 1: that was an important part of the record later on,

936
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: because we thought records only had a life of two

937
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: or three months, and then then you never hear it again, so,

938
00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 1: you know, we we go away, and then two or

939
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:49,920
Speaker 1: three years later some student engineer at Decca remixed it

940
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 1: in stereo, but of course he didn't have that extra

941
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 1: drum track. So very often now even the mix that

942
00:53:56,000 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: you hear on quite successful commercials UM is the stereo

943
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 1: version without that extra groove, which makes it sound much

944
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 1: more cool to me. But with all that in mind,

945
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 1: I thought what we ended up with when Ken, when

946
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: it had all been mixed, because also the you may

947
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,839
Speaker 1: have heard this story, Bob, but the engineer UM at

948
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: the time got very very drunk because he had been

949
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,760
Speaker 1: at a wedding in the afternoon and we were recording

950
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: through the night, UM and UM. He passed out, UM.

951
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: And when he passed out, we we we all carried

952
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: him upstairs, put him in the cab, and he went home.

953
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,920
Speaker 1: And Ken Jones said to the Taypop the assistant engineer,

954
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: you're going to have to carry on with the session.

955
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 1: And that tape hop was Gus Dudgeon and that was

956
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 1: his first ever That was his first ever um uh

957
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: experience as a first engineer, you know. Um. So anyway

958
00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: to two of the sides that we can't were brought

959
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 1: round who um uh one of the one of our

960
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: houses and Kem played it to us and said, we've

961
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:08,759
Speaker 1: got to choose which is the single, And it was

962
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:11,200
Speaker 1: between She's Not There and You Made Me Feel Good,

963
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 1: which was the Chris White b side, um, and we

964
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: found it hard to make up my mind. We thought

965
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: they both sounded really good. Um and I was I

966
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,240
Speaker 1: secretly preferred She's Not There, But then I would wouldn't

967
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: I because I wrote it? But um, Luckily for me,

968
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: the decision came down to um, She's not there, uh

969
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: and and I and again with that naivety and arrogance,

970
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: we just, you know, we just expected it to be

971
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 1: a hit. We had a huge break because there was

972
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 1: almost no place right at the beginning when the record

973
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: first came out where you could hear records on the radio.

974
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:56,720
Speaker 1: The BBC was the only major station that played records,

975
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: and they had half an hour a week of records,

976
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 1: I think that was it, and and they'd only play

977
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:03,319
Speaker 1: half of them, you know. It was that sort of thing.

978
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 1: But there was this TV program called Jukebox Jury, and

979
00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 1: they would play a minute and a half or something

980
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 1: like that of a record or two minutes maximum, and

981
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: the panel would would either vos a hit or a miss.

982
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 1: Um and George Harrison happened to be on the week

983
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: that we were lucky enough to get this. She's not

984
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: there but put on Jukebox Jury, and I was watching

985
00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: it like this because you know, the beech the beetles,

986
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: to us, like to every other young musician at that time,

987
00:56:36,680 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: were God's and I thought, please don't let him say

988
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 1: anything bad about the record, Oh please, you know. But

989
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 1: Um and I. As each record came on, he was

990
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:49,600
Speaker 1: never nasty, but he was sort of saying, well, no,

991
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: I don't think so, you know, and that sounds pretty

992
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 1: ordinary actually to me, you know, and all that, and

993
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 1: then we played ours, and I was looking from behind

994
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:02,800
Speaker 1: the sofa, you know, and he said, well done, zombies,

995
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,439
Speaker 1: and then he actually says something about our cart remember

996
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: what it was now, something about the piano, so is

997
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: it said, you know, if that's the if that's their

998
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: real Paris, that's great. I thought, what what was that?

999
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 1: Did I hear that correctly? You know? And and I'm

1000
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: sure that gave it its first leg up. And then

1001
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: very soon after that, all the Pirates started to broadcast

1002
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 1: with these young DJs who were full of passion and

1003
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 1: enthusiasm about the music that they were playing, and they

1004
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 1: played She's Not There a lot, uh, and you know,

1005
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: it was just such a lucky time. I mean, we

1006
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,240
Speaker 1: were so lucky with that timing. Okay, so that's a

1007
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: huge hit. How does Torno come about? Well, the net

1008
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: The follow up in in the UK was leave Me Be.

1009
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: And it's not that I don't have the utmost respective

1010
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 1: Chris for longwriter, but we thought it was a terrible record,

1011
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,200
Speaker 1: a terrible single, and we thought it was very really

1012
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: limp and weak. And that came out and it was

1013
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: a huge flop in the UK, and in the end

1014
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: we only ever had one hit in in the UK um,

1015
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: and I'm sure that was the reason. Um. And then

1016
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: because of that in the States they decided to miss

1017
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,240
Speaker 1: out Leave Me Be and put tell Her No out

1018
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: Now Tell Her Now as a song came about because

1019
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: we've been on a package tour in the UK with

1020
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: Dion Warwick and the Isley brothers. The Isley brothers were

1021
00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: they were just fantastic and they were absolutely they became

1022
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: really good friends. And Ronnie Eilis got the most beautiful voice,

1023
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,720
Speaker 1: you know, and and they were giving us all sorts

1024
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: of tips and they were really really lovely. Um And

1025
00:58:51,920 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: but Dion Warwick was having hits in the US and

1026
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 1: in the UK, although most of her hits in the

1027
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: UK were covered by people like Sylla Black UM and

1028
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: Dion Morritt was getting really annoyed about this, you know,

1029
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 1: because she said, can't you find some of your own songwriters?

1030
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, do you know what? I love

1031
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:17,600
Speaker 1: some of the back right stuff I've been hearing. And

1032
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: I absolutely loved the way that he was taking things

1033
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 1: away from just playing chords into more jazz informed cards

1034
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 1: like um without wanting to get too technical, like major

1035
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,760
Speaker 1: seventh major, ninth major e levenths and and and and

1036
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: things like that. And I thought, I would love to,

1037
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,240
Speaker 1: you know, put some of that into what we're doing.

1038
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: And I wrote this song again fairly quickly called tell

1039
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: Her No, which was using these major chords, but with

1040
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: some jazz colorations in them as well. Now, you know,

1041
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: tell her no. It sounds like a very simple song,

1042
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: and it is. And I always think that when things

1043
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 1: really work, they always sound simple. But it me that necessarily, um,

1044
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 1: there's not something nice going on underneath, or something that's

1045
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 1: a little bit more inventive going on underneath, you just

1046
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: shouldn't be aware of it. I guess really, um and

1047
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: um anyway that that that was how how Teleno was written,

1048
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:20,760
Speaker 1: um and um to you know, she used pleasure to

1049
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 1: us because when we were recording it, as we were

1050
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: recording it, uh um not al Cope al Gallico, publisher

1051
01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: in the States, phoned us up, which was a big

1052
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:33,600
Speaker 1: deal in those days, phone from the U S to

1053
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: UK while we were recording, and so I just wanted

1054
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: you to know that she's not there is number one

1055
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 1: so over here now. Um. So we were knocked out. Um.

1056
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 1: And and then the next thing we sent him was

1057
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: tell her No, And luckily it became a top five

1058
01:00:51,400 --> 01:00:55,919
Speaker 1: record as well. Okay, how does the being ultimately peter

1059
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: out and break up? And then it is the story

1060
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 1: t about our Cooper pushing the button and time of

1061
01:01:03,040 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: the season. True, Um, what happened was that although we

1062
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: love Ken and he was a great musician, really good

1063
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 1: pianist himself. Um, he was an old school guy. And

1064
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,960
Speaker 1: whereas we felt that on the very first session that

1065
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 1: he did with us he was a great producer because

1066
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 1: he just got the best out of the songs, after

1067
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: that he seemed very intent on trying to analyze wasn't

1068
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 1: made the first record successful? Excuse me? And in his

1069
01:01:36,440 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: mind he thought, well, you know, there's a really breathy

1070
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 1: quality to Colin, so we've got to emphasize that. And uh.

1071
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: And rather than taking whatever song was Chris or I

1072
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 1: had written and then getting the best out of them,

1073
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 1: he was trying to fashion them in a certain sort

1074
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: of way. We did. We did a a song, I

1075
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,919
Speaker 1: think our third single in the States was called She's

1076
01:01:57,960 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: Coming Home, and he tried to fashion it just like

1077
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,080
Speaker 1: the Righteous Brothers of You. You lost that loving feeling.

1078
01:02:03,080 --> 01:02:04,720
Speaker 1: He was putting the same sort of echo on it

1079
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 1: and throwing it that way, you know, And we thought

1080
01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,360
Speaker 1: this was so wrong. We thought it should just be

1081
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: good production is just getting the very best out of

1082
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 1: what what you were doing. Anyway, To cut the long

1083
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: story short, we had lots of singles, and none of

1084
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 1: them were hits in the UK. Um and although we

1085
01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 1: later found out that around the world many of these

1086
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: have been hits actually. Um. But but in those days

1087
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:34,680
Speaker 1: you didn't get news all that quickly. You know, you

1088
01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 1: you can have a hit now in our to Mongolia

1089
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:40,920
Speaker 1: and no within an hour or two, but but in

1090
01:02:41,000 --> 01:02:44,040
Speaker 1: those days, you know, it probably took you might never

1091
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 1: find out. Um. So it had the result that Chris

1092
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 1: and I, because we had very honest publishers, um, we

1093
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:54,920
Speaker 1: got all the money that we would do from writing,

1094
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:57,680
Speaker 1: so we were doing pretty well and we didn't have

1095
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 1: money problems. The rest of the band were completely broke.

1096
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: And because we were based very much in the UK,

1097
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 1: and I have to say, there was a little little

1098
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 1: bit of exportation going on, and we'd be on tour

1099
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 1: in America and we'd be on tour with big hit

1100
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:18,320
Speaker 1: records and and and and playing with on massive shows

1101
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 1: to twenty people and just breaking even by the time

1102
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: we got back, and somebody else was making a huge

1103
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 1: amount of money and it wasn't us. So that was

1104
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: their situation. And one day, um, well, there were two things. Okay.

1105
01:03:31,560 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 1: So first of all, we were looking back on the

1106
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:37,720
Speaker 1: singles that we recorded, and Chris and I were thinking

1107
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 1: what happened to that song? We did a demo on

1108
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 1: the demos a lot better than the final record you

1109
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 1: know where Where's we recorded? Um? One of my sons

1110
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 1: called is this a Dream? And it was really rocking

1111
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: in the studio and we were never allowed into the mixes. Um.

1112
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 1: Ken Jones would always insist on mixing it by himself.

1113
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 1: And we came back from the pub after he had

1114
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 1: mixed it, and Colin said, is that the song we recorded?

1115
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,840
Speaker 1: I mean he thought it was almost a different song. Um.

1116
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: And we've had enough of this, you know. And I

1117
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 1: said to Chris, look if we're going to break up

1118
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 1: because some of the guys have got no money and

1119
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: Paul Atkinson was getting married to Molly Molly malloy and

1120
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: he said, I've got no money and I want to

1121
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: get married. I've got to get another job. I'm sorry, guys,

1122
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 1: but I'm going to leave. And we were all still friends.

1123
01:04:26,920 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 1: There was no antipathy in the band. We were just

1124
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:33,880
Speaker 1: we were all friends. Um. But things were breaking down

1125
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:36,400
Speaker 1: and I said to Chris, look, we've got we've got

1126
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 1: to do at least one album where we can write

1127
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 1: some material and have it realized in the way at

1128
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 1: least that we hear it, and if nobody likes it,

1129
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: there's nothing we can do. But at least, you know,

1130
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: we feel satisfied that we've actually got it down on record.

1131
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: And so and I had to say that Ken was

1132
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 1: great about this, and he said, okay, if you want

1133
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:58,960
Speaker 1: to produce something yourself, he said, I'll support you. I'll

1134
01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: go to UM. I'll go to E M I and

1135
01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:04,440
Speaker 1: see if I can get you a deal. And I asked,

1136
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 1: you said you should try and record an abbey Road

1137
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 1: And we said, well, surely you have to be signed

1138
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: to E M I to record Abbey Road. And I said,

1139
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 1: you know, the Beetles are uh the biggest act there.

1140
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 1: So anyway, he got it somehow he used his influence.

1141
01:05:23,560 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 1: We've got a thousand pounds, which even then wasn't a

1142
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 1: huge amount of money to do an album. And we

1143
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:31,919
Speaker 1: walked into Abbey Road just as the Beatles a week

1144
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:36,880
Speaker 1: before had walked out having recorded Sergeant Pepper and they

1145
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 1: had left quite a lot of stuff around the studio.

1146
01:05:40,760 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 1: Thank god that John Lennon left his meloton there and

1147
01:05:44,640 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: without asking him, Sorry, John, UM, I just used it

1148
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 1: and and used it all over. Obviously an oracle, but

1149
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,680
Speaker 1: it was great because we because we had no money,

1150
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: we really rehearsed and rehearsed, and we rehearsed, and we

1151
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:02,840
Speaker 1: put the back into acts down and and and the

1152
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: lead vocal as we heard it and the harmon is

1153
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:11,440
Speaker 1: actually But then because the Beatles have worked out technically

1154
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 1: how to get slightly more than four tracks, they managed

1155
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:17,840
Speaker 1: to get seven tracks. Um. They didn't have an eight

1156
01:06:17,840 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: track machine in the country like Brian Wilson had had,

1157
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: but they managed to get the boffins at Abbey Road

1158
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: to work out a way of having seven tracks. And

1159
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,920
Speaker 1: so what we would do is we would record exactly

1160
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: as we heard things, and it would be recorded in

1161
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 1: a way that we'd heard it. And we were over

1162
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 1: the moon about this. And then even though it was

1163
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 1: really prepared, we had a bit of spontaneous chance of

1164
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: improvisation or just a last minute thought. And even on

1165
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: on the time of the season. I remember we recorded

1166
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: that and another track, the backing track of it, in

1167
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: three hours time the season as something else. At the

1168
01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 1: same time. Um, and as we were playing through we

1169
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 1: all thought it sounded pretty good. Um and um, But

1170
01:07:06,960 --> 01:07:11,280
Speaker 1: I said to Hugh where it had been doom doom doom, sorry,

1171
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 1: doom doom doom check, doom doom doom chap like that.

1172
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:18,200
Speaker 1: I said, sounds great, But I said, you know what,

1173
01:07:18,360 --> 01:07:20,920
Speaker 1: I can hear a bit of percussion either side of

1174
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 1: the backbeat. I can hear doo doo doo ah like that.

1175
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: And honestly, he said, well, if you hear that, he said,

1176
01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 1: you know, we've still got a few minutes going there

1177
01:07:31,000 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: and bang it through. And we had Jeff Emrick as

1178
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: um engineer on that particular track, and I had to say,

1179
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: right from the beginning, the sound was brilliant, and there

1180
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 1: was something about even when we recorded before those those

1181
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:49,959
Speaker 1: bits um, there was something magical about the way he'd

1182
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 1: recorded the tom tom's with the bass. It just sounded.

1183
01:07:55,000 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: It sounded so right, and we were really excited. But

1184
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 1: we put this improvisation thing um and that that's the

1185
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:05,440
Speaker 1: one I really remember on that that particular track. It

1186
01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: was done so quickly, but when it finished, we thought,

1187
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:12,920
Speaker 1: that's the best we can do for an album. We

1188
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: were all all really happy with all the tracks. We

1189
01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 1: thought it was great, but we thought, if no one

1190
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:21,839
Speaker 1: likes it, what can we do? You know. So anyway,

1191
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: it came out in the UK because everything was very

1192
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: based locally at that time. It was it was much

1193
01:08:27,320 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 1: more hard. It was even hard from a business point

1194
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: of view to go to the States because I mean

1195
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 1: we at one point we had to um swap on

1196
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:39,960
Speaker 1: the Musicians Union with a Duke Ellington orchestra, you know,

1197
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 1: so all these things were going on. Um. But it

1198
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 1: finished and then we thought, we put one single out.

1199
01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:51,320
Speaker 1: If the single was a hit, fantastic. If it's not,

1200
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:54,920
Speaker 1: then okay, at least we've got something that we really

1201
01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:59,720
Speaker 1: like and it's there. So we have one DJ in

1202
01:08:59,800 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 1: the hole of the country who liked it, Kenny Everett.

1203
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:06,400
Speaker 1: This guy called Kenny Everett who was a really cool DJ,

1204
01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 1: and we had one meeting with him and he said,

1205
01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:13,599
Speaker 1: I hear you're broken up, and we said, yeah, yeah,

1206
01:09:13,760 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: but well we've had you know, we've put the first

1207
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 1: single out. Nobody's playing it, he said, I play it,

1208
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 1: he said, And he played it once a week on

1209
01:09:20,600 --> 01:09:23,040
Speaker 1: his program or something like that. But it just died

1210
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:25,960
Speaker 1: of death and we broke up and that was the reason.

1211
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: But we were really happy from how it sounded um,

1212
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 1: but we were unhappy from the fact that it wasn't

1213
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 1: a hit, of course, and then if anyone has said

1214
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:40,599
Speaker 1: to us that in fifty five years time it would

1215
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: be selling far more every year, and it ever did

1216
01:09:44,160 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 1: when it first came out, we we did. We have

1217
01:09:46,880 --> 01:09:50,360
Speaker 1: thought he was absolutely crazy. But you know, that's the

1218
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 1: weird thing about life. So after me the record is

1219
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:58,040
Speaker 1: a gigantic smash. The band has already broken up. What

1220
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 1: is that experience? Like, how do you decide to form Argent? Well,

1221
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 1: as soon as the Zombies broke up, I stayed together

1222
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 1: professionally with Chris White, and we decided to form a

1223
01:10:11,880 --> 01:10:15,679
Speaker 1: production company and then we start. Then we thought, okay,

1224
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:18,640
Speaker 1: we're going to have to try and get someone to

1225
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:24,120
Speaker 1: finance this production partnership. And I didn't think how we

1226
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:27,879
Speaker 1: were going to do that. But then suddenly we'd already

1227
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 1: well formed by by Argent at the time that that

1228
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,680
Speaker 1: UM the Time of the Season started to be a

1229
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:38,640
Speaker 1: hit in the States, because it came it was a

1230
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:43,720
Speaker 1: hit eighteen months after UM. Obviously an Oracle came out,

1231
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:46,240
Speaker 1: and I mean that was in sixty seven where we

1232
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 1: actually finished it, and it was sixty nine before it

1233
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:54,759
Speaker 1: finally like like crawling up the up the top hundred

1234
01:10:54,840 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 1: until it finally ended up right at the top, which

1235
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:01,400
Speaker 1: was just wonderful. UM. And we only found that out

1236
01:11:01,439 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 1: actually two or three months before it reached number one,

1237
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:07,799
Speaker 1: because we've got a call from our Gallico, the publisher

1238
01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 1: in America, saying, this is starting to be a hit.

1239
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 1: He said, One guy in Idaho in Boise, Idaho are

1240
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 1: starting to play this, just one guy, he said, and

1241
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:22,519
Speaker 1: unbelievably in a very very slow pattern, like a like

1242
01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,200
Speaker 1: a stone in the pond. The ripples are starting to

1243
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 1: cause UM success and and those ripples are causing people

1244
01:11:31,640 --> 01:11:35,320
Speaker 1: UM to start spreading the news. And then of course

1245
01:11:35,400 --> 01:11:37,720
Speaker 1: it absolutely caught fire at a certain point, and then

1246
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 1: it and then then with complete wonder we were looking

1247
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:45,600
Speaker 1: at the you know, the top twenties, seeing some of

1248
01:11:45,680 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 1: their heroes, uh beneath us, you know, and there there

1249
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 1: we were, and it was wonderful and actually it felt

1250
01:11:54,439 --> 01:11:58,719
Speaker 1: it felt glorious because already Chris and I were able

1251
01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 1: to go over to UM Clive Davis and we're able

1252
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: to say we've got a number one single that Chris

1253
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 1: and I have produced UM and we've already planned a

1254
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 1: solo album for Colin Bloodstone, which was one year, um,

1255
01:12:14,040 --> 01:12:17,639
Speaker 1: which I still think is a great album. UM and UM.

1256
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 1: And we formed another band called Argent and we played

1257
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 1: two or three tracks that we've already got and he

1258
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:29,000
Speaker 1: loved it and he and and he said, yeah, okay,

1259
01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:33,799
Speaker 1: we'll we'll, we'll, we'll released that. UM. I mean Clive

1260
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,519
Speaker 1: was was one of the guys that I'm sorry, I'm

1261
01:12:36,520 --> 01:12:39,960
Speaker 1: going back to your previous question now. Uh. He was.

1262
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 1: He was the guy that said, um, when our Cooper

1263
01:12:44,400 --> 01:12:49,000
Speaker 1: came over in sixty seven, UM, he just signed with

1264
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 1: Clive Davis as the top A n R man in CBS. UM,

1265
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 1: and he came over to the UK and he wrote

1266
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:03,839
Speaker 1: this thing which said, um, I bring back two hundred albums.

1267
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 1: And you know the the rows amongst Thorns were were

1268
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:12,080
Speaker 1: obviously an oracle. And he went back at a meeting

1269
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:16,720
Speaker 1: with Clive Davis and said, there's only one album that

1270
01:13:16,880 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 1: I think that wherever that is, whoever is, he's got it.

1271
01:13:20,960 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 1: UM in the whole world. You've got to buy it is.

1272
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:25,680
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter how much it costs, You've got to

1273
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:29,000
Speaker 1: buy that album and release it. And Clive said, well,

1274
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 1: we've we've we've bought it, but we decided to to

1275
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:35,200
Speaker 1: to to not not not release it, you know, we

1276
01:13:35,360 --> 01:13:40,000
Speaker 1: passed and and Alan said, well, you you've got you've

1277
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:42,760
Speaker 1: got to you've got to release it, and he was

1278
01:13:43,000 --> 01:13:49,200
Speaker 1: on um. It was it was completely to al that

1279
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:51,599
Speaker 1: that it was down to him that it was released.

1280
01:13:51,640 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 1: It would not have released otherwise. And then Clive, who

1281
01:13:55,920 --> 01:14:01,479
Speaker 1: didn't really see it at that time, released um Bush's Tail,

1282
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 1: which is one of my favorite albums on the album

1283
01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:06,840
Speaker 1: but never a single in a million years. I loved

1284
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 1: his song. I thought it was great, an anti war

1285
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:12,640
Speaker 1: song um and of course it was a it was

1286
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:17,679
Speaker 1: a stiff and then he released Caraself forty four which

1287
01:14:17,800 --> 01:14:20,759
Speaker 1: also did nothing. And then finally, as a last gasp,

1288
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:22,639
Speaker 1: you put Time in the Season out and of course

1289
01:14:22,680 --> 01:14:24,200
Speaker 1: it was then that it was a hit, and so

1290
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:29,599
Speaker 1: he was then really really up for doing a production

1291
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:33,320
Speaker 1: contract and and and releasing Oja. So for Chris and

1292
01:14:33,439 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 1: I it was like a dream. We were going over

1293
01:14:35,800 --> 01:14:38,799
Speaker 1: with the number one record and it felt really easy

1294
01:14:39,280 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 1: to to form a form an album and we were off. Okay,

1295
01:14:44,479 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 1: so you have a production company, how do you hook

1296
01:14:47,200 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 1: up with Russ Ballard and decide you're going to be

1297
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:53,280
Speaker 1: back in a group. And then the first two records

1298
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 1: have great tracks, but there's not really any financial success

1299
01:14:56,400 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 1: commercial success. We went into a uh Russ and Bob Henrick.

1300
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: Russ ball and Bob Henrick, we're playing in Unit four

1301
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: plus two at the time, and Jim Rodford again. I

1302
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:13,400
Speaker 1: formed argent with Jim and he said, you know, he said,

1303
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:16,599
Speaker 1: there's a great drama that's playing in Unit four plus

1304
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:20,000
Speaker 1: two at the moment. He wasn't the Roulettes with Russ Ballard.

1305
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,280
Speaker 1: They were in the Roulettes together, and they're they're two

1306
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,360
Speaker 1: really really good people. I've never seen him play, and

1307
01:15:27,040 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 1: he said, you should really try and catch them, see

1308
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:32,200
Speaker 1: what you think. And Chris and I found out they

1309
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: were playing a little church hall, and I said, I'll

1310
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 1: tell you what, Chris. We'll pretend that we were just

1311
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:42,640
Speaker 1: passing and we saw the sign outside that it was

1312
01:15:42,760 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 1: Unit four plus two and we're wandering and and and

1313
01:15:46,880 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 1: just to say hello and um, just as an accident.

1314
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:57,040
Speaker 1: We'll be passing and we're walking and we we sought

1315
01:15:57,120 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 1: out this little church hall in the back of beyond

1316
01:15:59,640 --> 01:16:03,680
Speaker 1: and we went past this um this church hall, and

1317
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:07,880
Speaker 1: we went in until our horror, we couldn't lose ourselves

1318
01:16:07,880 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 1: at the back of the hall because there are only

1319
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:13,640
Speaker 1: about ten people in the hall. So so we we

1320
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:15,559
Speaker 1: sat at the back of the hall or were still

1321
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 1: at the back of the hall feeling and they looked

1322
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 1: and saw us and sort of went, you know, because

1323
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:24,479
Speaker 1: they fainally knew it. They sort of had messas I think,

1324
01:16:24,560 --> 01:16:27,640
Speaker 1: or at least they knew Chris or something I can't remember. Um,

1325
01:16:27,960 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 1: but anyway, or we knew Lem Lubin. I think we

1326
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:33,720
Speaker 1: knew Lem Lubin who was in the in the in

1327
01:16:33,800 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 1: the band. Anyway, we went back we we thought they

1328
01:16:36,960 --> 01:16:40,519
Speaker 1: were great. I thought I thought Russ was fantastic when

1329
01:16:40,600 --> 01:16:43,360
Speaker 1: he when he was singing bits and pieces, because I

1330
01:16:43,439 --> 01:16:47,160
Speaker 1: think it was Tommy Moyler that was mainly the lead singer. Um.

1331
01:16:47,960 --> 01:16:51,160
Speaker 1: And we went backstage afterwards and they had a new

1332
01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:54,240
Speaker 1: manager and we felt really embarrassed because we were sitting

1333
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:58,240
Speaker 1: at the back of the hall, back of the changing room. Uh.

1334
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:02,799
Speaker 1: And the the manager went crashing in his new manager

1335
01:17:03,120 --> 01:17:07,439
Speaker 1: and said, um, I can tell you in three words

1336
01:17:07,720 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 1: what's wrong with this band. And we sort of looked

1337
01:17:10,040 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 1: at him and thought, of God, we shouldn't be there really,

1338
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:17,280
Speaker 1: and he said stop drinking, and were completely apart because

1339
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:20,280
Speaker 1: those three songs were stopped drinking those three words so

1340
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:24,439
Speaker 1: well stopped drinking anyway. We thought they were great and

1341
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:26,720
Speaker 1: we asked them. We we we met up with him

1342
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 1: in London and said, look, we're starting this this thing.

1343
01:17:30,640 --> 01:17:33,320
Speaker 1: I've got a couple of songs I've written, like honey

1344
01:17:33,400 --> 01:17:37,200
Speaker 1: at the time, um, and I can't remember a couple

1345
01:17:37,240 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 1: of things. And they said, yeah, I think we play

1346
01:17:40,960 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 1: some demos that we had and they really liked it

1347
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 1: and said yeah, yeah, we should, we should, we should.

1348
01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:46,800
Speaker 1: And we said and I said, well, we've got to

1349
01:17:46,840 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 1: have a name. Um. And but we were going to

1350
01:17:52,160 --> 01:17:55,600
Speaker 1: call them because of Argent meaning silver, we were going

1351
01:17:55,640 --> 01:17:58,840
Speaker 1: to call them something like silver, Surfa or something. We said, well, no,

1352
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:01,960
Speaker 1: we can't call it that that that's that's not right, um.

1353
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 1: And in the end Bob Henry said we should call

1354
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:07,519
Speaker 1: it Argent. I said no, no, no, because it was

1355
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 1: one of those things like when you're in the back

1356
01:18:09,439 --> 01:18:13,720
Speaker 1: of the classroom. I was always really embarrassed when when

1357
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:17,040
Speaker 1: my name came out Argent, you know, I thought, you know,

1358
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,400
Speaker 1: reminded me of school sort of thing. But in the end,

1359
01:18:21,600 --> 01:18:26,559
Speaker 1: against my against what I wanted to do, he made

1360
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 1: it UM. He decided to that that we'd had the

1361
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:33,920
Speaker 1: name as Argent, and so that became the name of

1362
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,479
Speaker 1: the of the record of the group and then the

1363
01:18:37,520 --> 01:18:40,559
Speaker 1: first record UM and we and we formed the band

1364
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:46,599
Speaker 1: and we did the first album in a very small

1365
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:49,000
Speaker 1: studio that had just started and it was a great

1366
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:53,040
Speaker 1: little studio called Sound Techniques. And we loved the album.

1367
01:18:53,160 --> 01:18:56,599
Speaker 1: We really were very very proud of our first album, Argent.

1368
01:18:56,840 --> 01:19:00,120
Speaker 1: In some ways, it's still my favorite album, but it

1369
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:06,160
Speaker 1: was it sounded like very much UM, a natural UM,

1370
01:19:07,120 --> 01:19:11,160
Speaker 1: a natural follow on from what what we've been doing

1371
01:19:11,439 --> 01:19:14,360
Speaker 1: with the zombies UM. And they loved it as well.

1372
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:19,759
Speaker 1: They loved obviously Oracle and everything UM and we recorded

1373
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,719
Speaker 1: this thing. Now. The one thing that was bad about

1374
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:25,719
Speaker 1: that and and Ring of Hands, which was the second band,

1375
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:30,639
Speaker 1: was that we felt the actual sound quality in Sound Techniques.

1376
01:19:30,800 --> 01:19:32,280
Speaker 1: We thought it was great, but we thought it was

1377
01:19:32,280 --> 01:19:35,600
Speaker 1: a bit small as a sound. And then if you

1378
01:19:35,800 --> 01:19:41,160
Speaker 1: heard it against UM another hit record that will come out.

1379
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:46,080
Speaker 1: Their records always sounded a bit more powerful and strangely enough,

1380
01:19:46,280 --> 01:19:48,479
Speaker 1: not that long ago, a few years ago, maybe ten

1381
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:52,920
Speaker 1: years ago, they had they made Sony made a five

1382
01:19:54,120 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 1: a five CD box set, UM of CDs that they

1383
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 1: they remastered it, and they remastered with the sort of

1384
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:08,320
Speaker 1: marvelous things that you can do these days with remastering

1385
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 1: with multi band compression. So suddenly it felt that the

1386
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:15,479
Speaker 1: part that the parts that we put on the album

1387
01:20:15,920 --> 01:20:20,640
Speaker 1: was suddenly able to um compete with the sort of

1388
01:20:20,680 --> 01:20:25,519
Speaker 1: albums from whatever was around. It would be the right level,

1389
01:20:25,800 --> 01:20:28,040
Speaker 1: it would have the right impact of everything that was

1390
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:33,439
Speaker 1: going on. Unfortunately they deleted from the five CD box

1391
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 1: set and I can't get it anymore now, but that

1392
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:39,560
Speaker 1: that really it was a great thing for me to

1393
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:42,320
Speaker 1: get to get that and and I really think that

1394
01:20:42,680 --> 01:20:46,679
Speaker 1: if we'd have managed to get a bigger our sound

1395
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:49,599
Speaker 1: from the album, we just stood a much more chance

1396
01:20:49,640 --> 01:20:51,920
Speaker 1: of having a hit record with the with the with

1397
01:20:52,040 --> 01:20:54,639
Speaker 1: the first album, and and that was the main reason

1398
01:20:54,720 --> 01:20:57,280
Speaker 1: why we went to abbey Road again for for the

1399
01:20:57,439 --> 01:21:00,720
Speaker 1: album which became hold your Head Up in It. Um.

1400
01:21:01,120 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 1: It was because of that, because we wanted a bigger

1401
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 1: sound out of what we were doing. But I still

1402
01:21:06,160 --> 01:21:10,559
Speaker 1: think that we were most at one with those first

1403
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 1: two albums, and I still absolutely love those first two albums,

1404
01:21:14,280 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 1: and I think that Russ's voice was really really special.

1405
01:21:20,960 --> 01:21:23,479
Speaker 1: Um In the way that he could be really powerful

1406
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 1: at the same time when he was singing um more

1407
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 1: tenderly if you like, he had this wonderful high lyrical

1408
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:35,040
Speaker 1: quality as well when he was singing Listen. Liar is

1409
01:21:35,120 --> 01:21:38,840
Speaker 1: one of my favorite tracks of all time. Literally, I

1410
01:21:38,960 --> 01:21:41,519
Speaker 1: will say I didn't buy the album when Napster Hit

1411
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:44,920
Speaker 1: was one of the first songs I downloaded. To this day,

1412
01:21:44,960 --> 01:21:48,400
Speaker 1: I played incessantly the sound of the record. Mean three

1413
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:51,160
Speaker 1: Dark Knight cover is good, but it's nowhere close to

1414
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:55,840
Speaker 1: the original. Oh bless you mate, Yeah, well, thank you. Well.

1415
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,559
Speaker 1: We loved it, and our idea was that the actual

1416
01:21:58,640 --> 01:22:02,680
Speaker 1: chorus of b that I should have really smashed out.

1417
01:22:02,880 --> 01:22:05,400
Speaker 1: But of course it had the effect because the actual

1418
01:22:06,439 --> 01:22:09,040
Speaker 1: sound as it was at the time was that a

1419
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 1: little bit quieter, So it made a lot of the

1420
01:22:11,640 --> 01:22:14,760
Speaker 1: verses sounded very quiet, and then the liar sort of

1421
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:17,280
Speaker 1: came out at the sort of normal level in a sense,

1422
01:22:17,560 --> 01:22:19,479
Speaker 1: it wasn't. It didn't end out when it was on

1423
01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:23,280
Speaker 1: the radio sounding us as dramatic, dramatic as it should

1424
01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,479
Speaker 1: have been. Um, But I I thought it was beautifully

1425
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:28,800
Speaker 1: put together, and I loved how we were all playing.

1426
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:31,759
Speaker 1: I thought Jim Rodford as well. I thought the best

1427
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:35,600
Speaker 1: bass playing at that time was really fantastic UM and

1428
01:22:35,760 --> 01:22:40,960
Speaker 1: Bob's drumming was really solid, you know, and exciting. It was.

1429
01:22:41,200 --> 01:22:45,320
Speaker 1: It was those first two or three years were really

1430
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:50,640
Speaker 1: really great fun and we had some very bad experiences.

1431
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 1: We did. We did a one of the first venues

1432
01:22:57,320 --> 01:23:00,720
Speaker 1: that we did was in the It was either the

1433
01:23:00,720 --> 01:23:03,559
Speaker 1: Whiskey of Go Go or The troubad Or, I can't remember.

1434
01:23:04,120 --> 01:23:08,920
Speaker 1: And to our amazement when everybody turned out, Frank's Apple

1435
01:23:09,080 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 1: was there, Jimi Hendrix, Um, Eric Burden, just just everybody

1436
01:23:15,479 --> 01:23:19,280
Speaker 1: was there and we zoomed into the first record. I

1437
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 1: had two Leslie's and they were amplified from UM UH

1438
01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:31,479
Speaker 1: a changing room that the UM support band had on

1439
01:23:31,560 --> 01:23:36,240
Speaker 1: the support band, and I can quite understand this. We're

1440
01:23:36,360 --> 01:23:40,639
Speaker 1: drowned out by this Leslie speaker in their changing room

1441
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:46,880
Speaker 1: UM and that was so that we could amplify the

1442
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:52,479
Speaker 1: Leslie speakers without it being having feedback. So the actual

1443
01:23:52,520 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 1: effect was that after the first two minutes of the

1444
01:23:56,360 --> 01:23:59,120
Speaker 1: first song, you suddenly couldn't hear the organ for the

1445
01:23:59,200 --> 01:24:02,200
Speaker 1: rest of the whole the whole set and the organ

1446
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:04,080
Speaker 1: was a really big part of what we were doing,

1447
01:24:04,680 --> 01:24:08,240
Speaker 1: and I was. It just sounded like disaster to me,

1448
01:24:08,760 --> 01:24:11,160
Speaker 1: and people were very sort of kind about it. But

1449
01:24:11,720 --> 01:24:13,519
Speaker 1: you know, it was a really it was the opposite

1450
01:24:13,560 --> 01:24:16,439
Speaker 1: of Elton John doing the was it the whiskey Truber

1451
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:20,320
Speaker 1: or I can't remember, you know when he came from nowhere?

1452
01:24:20,800 --> 01:24:26,240
Speaker 1: But I had this suddenly, this shuge, huge explosion of success,

1453
01:24:26,360 --> 01:24:29,680
Speaker 1: you know, But we had the complete opposite because what

1454
01:24:29,840 --> 01:24:33,040
Speaker 1: had been great gigs for us just turned out to be,

1455
01:24:33,439 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 1: you know, no real impact. So that that was really

1456
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:38,240
Speaker 1: a great sense. You know a lot of things went

1457
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 1: wrong in a in a okay, So ultimately you cut

1458
01:24:47,439 --> 01:24:51,080
Speaker 1: all together, now hold your head up as a gigantic kit.

1459
01:24:51,720 --> 01:24:54,120
Speaker 1: You followed up with God gave rock and roll to

1460
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:57,600
Speaker 1: you on the In Deep album, which really was as

1461
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:01,120
Speaker 1: stiff at the era and has become classic because of

1462
01:25:01,240 --> 01:25:04,880
Speaker 1: covers thereafter, even though I think your version is the best. Um,

1463
01:25:05,680 --> 01:25:09,440
Speaker 1: so walk us through the creation of that, the disappointment

1464
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:14,280
Speaker 1: and the ultimate leaving of Russ from margin. Well, I

1465
01:25:14,360 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 1: mean there were there were several reasons. Really, Um, I

1466
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:22,200
Speaker 1: think that um, God gave rock and roll to you

1467
01:25:22,320 --> 01:25:26,360
Speaker 1: when it started, Um, it was actually it was a

1468
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:29,640
Speaker 1: rock and roll tempo. It was. God gave rock and

1469
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:32,920
Speaker 1: roll to you know. It was like a double time

1470
01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:38,040
Speaker 1: almost rock and roll thing. Um but as we always did.

1471
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:41,760
Speaker 1: I mean, Russ was a great songwriter, but um, as

1472
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:44,800
Speaker 1: always we were, all four of us, would would would

1473
01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:48,479
Speaker 1: take an original idea and we would mess around with

1474
01:25:48,479 --> 01:25:52,280
Speaker 1: the arrangement hugely. And and I have to say, I

1475
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:55,080
Speaker 1: don't know if Russia remembers at this, but I said,

1476
01:25:55,240 --> 01:25:58,160
Speaker 1: do you know what we could do? We could make

1477
01:25:58,200 --> 01:26:02,720
Speaker 1: it halftime. God gave rock and roll to, you know.

1478
01:26:03,120 --> 01:26:06,040
Speaker 1: I said, we could have quite heavy, almost like an

1479
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:10,479
Speaker 1: industrial field to it. And I changed one of the chords. Um,

1480
01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:15,840
Speaker 1: DoD DoD DoD do that bit there, um and uh.

1481
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:18,120
Speaker 1: And we worked on it, and then we worked on

1482
01:26:18,479 --> 01:26:22,040
Speaker 1: really having cascading vocals and everything at the end. And

1483
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:24,640
Speaker 1: we weren't thinking of it. We weren't thinking of it

1484
01:26:24,720 --> 01:26:26,760
Speaker 1: as a single at the time. We were thinking it

1485
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:29,960
Speaker 1: purely as an album track and starting and having many

1486
01:26:30,080 --> 01:26:32,720
Speaker 1: layers and then really building at the very end to

1487
01:26:32,840 --> 01:26:37,200
Speaker 1: a this cascading harmonies, you know, which which we really

1488
01:26:37,280 --> 01:26:40,559
Speaker 1: loved when it When it came out, um and uh,

1489
01:26:41,320 --> 01:26:45,040
Speaker 1: it was it was used um as as a single

1490
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:49,680
Speaker 1: after it came out and people, I love the song basically,

1491
01:26:50,240 --> 01:26:52,160
Speaker 1: and you know, first of all, we weren't thinking of

1492
01:26:52,280 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 1: it as a as a single, and in fact, we

1493
01:26:55,080 --> 01:26:57,599
Speaker 1: weren't thinking of Hold Your Head Up as a single either. Um.

1494
01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:00,360
Speaker 1: In fact, no one was having singles at that particular time.

1495
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 1: But it became a hit when they when they cut

1496
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:09,120
Speaker 1: out three and a half minutes of organ solo, which

1497
01:27:09,240 --> 01:27:12,640
Speaker 1: is fair enough, you know, um, But you know, it

1498
01:27:12,840 --> 01:27:14,439
Speaker 1: was all it was all really good at the time,

1499
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:18,160
Speaker 1: but then it's like everything else. It's like with the Beatles.

1500
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:20,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I always sort of the Beatles as the

1501
01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:25,920
Speaker 1: first progressive UM group ever, right from the beginning. I mean,

1502
01:27:25,960 --> 01:27:28,680
Speaker 1: whether it was Revolution number nine, or whether it was

1503
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:33,760
Speaker 1: trying their ideas on helter skelter or whatever it was,

1504
01:27:34,120 --> 01:27:38,080
Speaker 1: or using music concrete or or whatever. There was so

1505
01:27:38,280 --> 01:27:41,000
Speaker 1: much of that going on, and we were always trying

1506
01:27:41,040 --> 01:27:43,840
Speaker 1: to go to the edge of boundaries, and we were

1507
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:47,400
Speaker 1: always trying to push things and they didn't always work

1508
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:49,760
Speaker 1: in in in a way that they should have done,

1509
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:51,560
Speaker 1: but we were trying all the time to do it.

1510
01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 1: And in the end Russ wanted to do much more

1511
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:57,879
Speaker 1: straightforward songs, and I quite understand that and we remained

1512
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:00,719
Speaker 1: really good friends. But in the end, it's that I'm gonna,

1513
01:28:01,479 --> 01:28:03,800
Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to leave and just go for

1514
01:28:03,880 --> 01:28:06,320
Speaker 1: a solo career and just do some more straightforward songs,

1515
01:28:06,800 --> 01:28:09,120
Speaker 1: and that that seemed fair enough to me at the time.

1516
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:12,519
Speaker 1: And and and then and then we broke up. You know,

1517
01:28:13,479 --> 01:28:15,200
Speaker 1: that was it really tell me. The story of the

1518
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,120
Speaker 1: creation recording of Hold Your Head Up. Hold Your Head

1519
01:28:18,200 --> 01:28:22,880
Speaker 1: Up was done Chris White and I shared UM an

1520
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:26,320
Speaker 1: apartment we had We had a bedroom each, and there

1521
01:28:26,400 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 1: was a third guy who did the um the artwork

1522
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:33,040
Speaker 1: for obviously an oracle as well, so that that was

1523
01:28:33,160 --> 01:28:35,679
Speaker 1: the three of us and we had a room each

1524
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:38,519
Speaker 1: at the time we were just doing that. At the beginning, UM,

1525
01:28:40,560 --> 01:28:43,880
Speaker 1: Hold your Head Up was a song that Chris came

1526
01:28:43,920 --> 01:28:46,320
Speaker 1: into me and said, I've got this song. And I

1527
01:28:46,439 --> 01:28:49,040
Speaker 1: had to say that if you're talking about a song

1528
01:28:49,160 --> 01:28:56,000
Speaker 1: that comes from lyrically and UM from the guitar motif,

1529
01:28:56,760 --> 01:29:00,719
Speaker 1: then that was absolutely Chris White. UM. But then again,

1530
01:29:01,040 --> 01:29:03,560
Speaker 1: like with everything, Chris and I used to work on

1531
01:29:03,680 --> 01:29:06,680
Speaker 1: things together, change some of the chords and and do

1532
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:09,720
Speaker 1: one thing and another. And I did as I always did.

1533
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:13,080
Speaker 1: I did lots of the arranging side of what was

1534
01:29:13,120 --> 01:29:15,320
Speaker 1: going on and how we were going to structure the

1535
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:20,120
Speaker 1: whole thing together. Um, but that original motif, you know,

1536
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:25,240
Speaker 1: and and that lovely guitar motif was was Chris White's. Um.

1537
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:28,920
Speaker 1: So he did the song. We went into Abbey Road

1538
01:29:28,960 --> 01:29:32,559
Speaker 1: to to record it. We didn't even record, we didn't

1539
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:36,000
Speaker 1: even rehearse it. We went in to record it and

1540
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:41,519
Speaker 1: we played it through to Bob Henry and we we

1541
01:29:41,640 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 1: did the unbelievably. I mean, we did thirty two takes

1542
01:29:45,080 --> 01:29:49,880
Speaker 1: on it, but we took tape one and um, it

1543
01:29:50,040 --> 01:29:52,920
Speaker 1: was six and a half minutes, and we just went

1544
01:29:53,040 --> 01:29:55,439
Speaker 1: on and built, you know, just improvised the middle part

1545
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:58,559
Speaker 1: and just built, built it and built it until at

1546
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:01,120
Speaker 1: the end we were happy with what we got. And

1547
01:30:01,400 --> 01:30:03,840
Speaker 1: my god, we stayed there for another four or five hours,

1548
01:30:03,920 --> 01:30:06,600
Speaker 1: doing about thirty two takes, but we went back to

1549
01:30:06,880 --> 01:30:10,639
Speaker 1: one because the great thing was that everyone was really

1550
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:16,160
Speaker 1: really listening, and Barbara Henry was listening so acutely to

1551
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:20,880
Speaker 1: too where the song was going. And unbelievably we got

1552
01:30:20,960 --> 01:30:23,880
Speaker 1: through the whole thing without making mistakes. But it felt

1553
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:27,519
Speaker 1: fresh and fresh and improvised, and we thought immediately we

1554
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:30,599
Speaker 1: could do much better. But we never never achieved anything better.

1555
01:30:30,640 --> 01:30:36,600
Speaker 1: It was just that fresh, early um, early response to

1556
01:30:36,680 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 1: the original idea, um and and and and that's how

1557
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:45,960
Speaker 1: it turned out. And unbelievably, um we all sang on

1558
01:30:46,040 --> 01:30:49,800
Speaker 1: the chorus um and it was actually which nobody got

1559
01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 1: until absolutely recently. It was the words will holding it

1560
01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:57,200
Speaker 1: Chris why it wrote it? And he had his wife

1561
01:30:57,280 --> 01:30:58,920
Speaker 1: in mind, and it was because she was going to

1562
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,040
Speaker 1: a difficult time and it was hold your head up

1563
01:31:01,160 --> 01:31:05,080
Speaker 1: woman basically not not whole as everyone thought it was you,

1564
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 1: but I would go ah at the top and that

1565
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:11,840
Speaker 1: sort of covered the woman really. Um. So, so that

1566
01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:14,000
Speaker 1: that was the story of the of the single. Really,

1567
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:15,680
Speaker 1: But what was it like when it all of a

1568
01:31:15,720 --> 01:31:19,320
Speaker 1: sudden became it was everywhere in the summer of seventy two,

1569
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:23,400
Speaker 1: I mean it became absolutely gigantic, bigger than anything you'd

1570
01:31:23,439 --> 01:31:27,639
Speaker 1: experienced previously. What was that experience from your viewpoint? Well,

1571
01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:32,639
Speaker 1: it was fantastic again. But um, when we when we toured,

1572
01:31:33,360 --> 01:31:36,000
Speaker 1: we never had this sort of we never had the

1573
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:39,240
Speaker 1: sort of manager the I mean it wasn't that the

1574
01:31:39,320 --> 01:31:43,479
Speaker 1: managers were We're bad or cheating or anything like that.

1575
01:31:44,120 --> 01:31:48,960
Speaker 1: They just weren't really quite the right quality UM. And

1576
01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 1: it really strange enough, it's only in the you know,

1577
01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:53,600
Speaker 1: to delete Mars forward, and I only do that for

1578
01:31:53,640 --> 01:31:56,559
Speaker 1: a set. UM. In the last six or seven years,

1579
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:01,960
Speaker 1: we've suddenly had um management that I've got everything right

1580
01:32:02,080 --> 01:32:05,719
Speaker 1: and I've understood everything they should be doing, which means

1581
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:09,760
Speaker 1: that that it's enabled us to grow in this incarnation

1582
01:32:09,800 --> 01:32:12,760
Speaker 1: of the Zombies Pristance. But the but at that time

1583
01:32:13,640 --> 01:32:16,400
Speaker 1: there were always things wrong from the management side of

1584
01:32:16,960 --> 01:32:21,200
Speaker 1: a point of view, UM and and I'm sure that's

1585
01:32:21,280 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 1: what actually went wrong with it. But we had some

1586
01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:27,680
Speaker 1: great shows. You know, we had some really great shows UM,

1587
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:33,320
Speaker 1: but we we had some disastrous, very very important gigs.

1588
01:32:33,439 --> 01:32:35,200
Speaker 1: There was one gig in New York that we did

1589
01:32:36,560 --> 01:32:40,400
Speaker 1: and we've just done the previous day. In Canada, We've

1590
01:32:40,439 --> 01:32:46,680
Speaker 1: done a gig with Richie Blackmore for Rainbow, UH and

1591
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:49,880
Speaker 1: I have to you know, I don't know if if

1592
01:32:50,000 --> 01:32:54,439
Speaker 1: Rischie would agree, but we we really went down very

1593
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:57,360
Speaker 1: much better than than the Rainbow went down. And then

1594
01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:00,800
Speaker 1: our next gig was in New York and we have

1595
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:04,519
Speaker 1: this big gig there and by halfway through our show,

1596
01:33:05,200 --> 01:33:09,479
Speaker 1: everyone's response are completely tailed off because someone had really

1597
01:33:10,240 --> 01:33:14,439
Speaker 1: UM it was a real tragedy. They'd really, uh, what's

1598
01:33:14,560 --> 01:33:20,800
Speaker 1: what's the what's the word they I can't think the word.

1599
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:25,000
Speaker 1: But they become a disaster because someone had We had

1600
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:31,040
Speaker 1: a disaster with the organ. They they they pulled some

1601
01:33:31,280 --> 01:33:33,720
Speaker 1: plugs out or something, and it was like playing a

1602
01:33:33,880 --> 01:33:37,600
Speaker 1: very small light sound on the organ instead of the

1603
01:33:38,200 --> 01:33:41,000
Speaker 1: roaring sound that we should have had. And so for instance,

1604
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: in in in hold your head up when it should

1605
01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:47,960
Speaker 1: have been um completely blowing things away. It was it

1606
01:33:48,080 --> 01:33:53,160
Speaker 1: was really disaster and we were absolutely yeah, it was

1607
01:33:53,200 --> 01:33:56,759
Speaker 1: disasters for us. And I remember going um to Maxis

1608
01:33:56,800 --> 01:34:00,240
Speaker 1: Karasas City afterwards and I just I just wanted to

1609
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:03,920
Speaker 1: commit suicide. I happened to meet Brian May there and said,

1610
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:06,080
Speaker 1: we just had the most awful gig in the world,

1611
01:34:06,160 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 1: you know. He said, oh, I'm sure it wasn't that bad,

1612
01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:11,120
Speaker 1: but it but it was. We had some uh, some people,

1613
01:34:11,760 --> 01:34:16,840
Speaker 1: you know, um making a mess of things. Okay, So

1614
01:34:17,960 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 1: Argent breaks up, You become a producer. You have a

1615
01:34:21,000 --> 01:34:26,880
Speaker 1: gigantic hit with Tanita ticker hum, twisting my sobriety, and

1616
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:32,080
Speaker 1: then she completely disappears. How did you find her? How

1617
01:34:32,120 --> 01:34:34,439
Speaker 1: did you create? The hit? Was the video was all

1618
01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:39,960
Speaker 1: over MTV and why did she disappear? My My, my colleague,

1619
01:34:40,120 --> 01:34:42,920
Speaker 1: my co production colleague was Pete Peter van Hook, who

1620
01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:50,280
Speaker 1: for years was Van Morrison's drummer UM and his tour

1621
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:52,920
Speaker 1: manager at the time with someone called Paul Charles who

1622
01:34:53,040 --> 01:34:57,680
Speaker 1: became the head of a really big agency UM. And

1623
01:34:58,160 --> 01:35:01,280
Speaker 1: he found Tanita tick around at the age of seventeen,

1624
01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:04,960
Speaker 1: just playing with a single guitar in a small club

1625
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:08,080
Speaker 1: and that's the only thing that she's done. And and

1626
01:35:08,680 --> 01:35:12,680
Speaker 1: Paul asked us to produce an album for her. So

1627
01:35:13,320 --> 01:35:14,800
Speaker 1: he said, I want I want to get a deal

1628
01:35:14,920 --> 01:35:18,320
Speaker 1: with UM. I can't remember who the deal was now,

1629
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:23,200
Speaker 1: but anyway, he wanted just he wanted to get a deal, uh,

1630
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:26,120
Speaker 1: and I think the Universal I can't remember, but UM

1631
01:35:27,760 --> 01:35:29,760
Speaker 1: he said, will you do three demos? So we did

1632
01:35:29,800 --> 01:35:33,200
Speaker 1: three demos and one of those demos was Twist Twisting

1633
01:35:33,240 --> 01:35:37,560
Speaker 1: my Sobriety. But Pete had the inspired idea that that

1634
01:35:38,080 --> 01:35:41,800
Speaker 1: she should sound really comfortable, she should feel really at

1635
01:35:41,840 --> 01:35:44,080
Speaker 1: home when she recorded. So he said, I'm going to

1636
01:35:44,160 --> 01:35:47,599
Speaker 1: put down a little drum machine that gives a very

1637
01:35:47,720 --> 01:35:55,080
Speaker 1: simple um metronomes sort of effect. UM, and then she's

1638
01:35:55,080 --> 01:35:58,639
Speaker 1: going to play an acoustic guitar and on the acoustic guitar,

1639
01:35:59,320 --> 01:36:01,280
Speaker 1: UM is, this is going to be something that she's

1640
01:36:01,600 --> 01:36:04,719
Speaker 1: totally at home with, and it's just gonna be voice

1641
01:36:04,760 --> 01:36:08,160
Speaker 1: and guitar. And so she she did this. It was

1642
01:36:08,240 --> 01:36:11,880
Speaker 1: just a very simple UM demos sort of drum track

1643
01:36:12,920 --> 01:36:15,720
Speaker 1: on a drum machine. She laid down the guitar and

1644
01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:20,160
Speaker 1: then she did what became the master vocal and then

1645
01:36:20,400 --> 01:36:24,080
Speaker 1: Pete and I started building up on much more UM

1646
01:36:25,040 --> 01:36:33,560
Speaker 1: uh complicated UM surround for her musically, UM and I

1647
01:36:33,720 --> 01:36:37,479
Speaker 1: put people a drum, a proper drum track on, I

1648
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:41,360
Speaker 1: put a keyboard based on it, I put some uh

1649
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:45,519
Speaker 1: an oboe line, and I put one or two other

1650
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:50,080
Speaker 1: things on as well. UM and it sounded absolutely beautiful.

1651
01:36:50,240 --> 01:36:51,800
Speaker 1: And we did we did the whole album like that,

1652
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:54,000
Speaker 1: and on one or two of the tracks we we

1653
01:36:54,160 --> 01:36:56,680
Speaker 1: which exactly the same thing, and on one or two

1654
01:36:56,760 --> 01:37:00,920
Speaker 1: things we changed the the chords completely and and and

1655
01:37:01,040 --> 01:37:07,000
Speaker 1: put some very um, very sophisticated chords around what she

1656
01:37:07,160 --> 01:37:10,040
Speaker 1: was doing. But it worked beautifully because she felt totally

1657
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:13,120
Speaker 1: at home doing it. UM and I think that could

1658
01:37:13,160 --> 01:37:16,320
Speaker 1: only ever happen once when she was seventeen, because it

1659
01:37:16,439 --> 01:37:20,400
Speaker 1: was a huge hit. It sold something like four million

1660
01:37:20,600 --> 01:37:26,840
Speaker 1: albums worldwide, uh, in particularly in Europe. UM. And after that,

1661
01:37:27,080 --> 01:37:30,719
Speaker 1: quite understandably, she wanted to use her own touring band

1662
01:37:31,120 --> 01:37:35,760
Speaker 1: instead of US, just UM building up a surround for

1663
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:42,080
Speaker 1: her UM. And she did that and and it was

1664
01:37:42,800 --> 01:37:46,040
Speaker 1: I think it was a more ordinary result. And then

1665
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:48,240
Speaker 1: after that she wanted to co produce it, and for

1666
01:37:48,400 --> 01:37:53,479
Speaker 1: me it became again even more ordinary, even though some

1667
01:37:53,600 --> 01:37:55,920
Speaker 1: of the stuff was nice on it, and and and

1668
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:59,519
Speaker 1: the sales just went from four million I think the

1669
01:37:59,600 --> 01:38:01,840
Speaker 1: second second album did a million and a half, which

1670
01:38:01,920 --> 01:38:05,560
Speaker 1: was still yeah, good. But then after that it was

1671
01:38:05,600 --> 01:38:08,200
Speaker 1: almost nothing until it just faded away. And it's a

1672
01:38:08,240 --> 01:38:10,880
Speaker 1: great shame. But um, I thought it was very special.

1673
01:38:10,960 --> 01:38:14,400
Speaker 1: The first album absolutely most of the world agreed. Okay,

1674
01:38:14,439 --> 01:38:19,400
Speaker 1: at this late date, who owns your songs? And do

1675
01:38:19,680 --> 01:38:24,280
Speaker 1: you get appropriately paid? The earlier stuff? Is that reverted

1676
01:38:24,360 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 1: in the UK? You talked about our Galago Calico. In

1677
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:31,559
Speaker 1: the US, copyright seems to be forever we have reversion rates.

1678
01:38:31,880 --> 01:38:35,720
Speaker 1: What's the status of all you're publishing? Um it it

1679
01:38:35,920 --> 01:38:39,240
Speaker 1: was owned. The deal was done in the sixties, so

1680
01:38:39,479 --> 01:38:41,920
Speaker 1: it was a fifty fifty deal as everything was then

1681
01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:46,559
Speaker 1: UM and it remained a fifty fifties deal. UM. Uh

1682
01:38:46,960 --> 01:38:50,160
Speaker 1: So all the early stuff UM, including the ours A

1683
01:38:50,240 --> 01:38:55,280
Speaker 1: stuff as as well, was with a company called Marquis

1684
01:38:55,400 --> 01:38:59,519
Speaker 1: Music and Verily Music, which was owned by Carol Broughton,

1685
01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:06,080
Speaker 1: and it was totally UM. That has now transferred but

1686
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:11,320
Speaker 1: still on a similar basis to UM wise music who

1687
01:39:11,439 --> 01:39:15,160
Speaker 1: seem really good. I mean that's only happened recently, but

1688
01:39:15,400 --> 01:39:20,040
Speaker 1: all that early stuff is I'm afraid. But then most

1689
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:23,919
Speaker 1: things in the sixties were and in the early seventies

1690
01:39:23,960 --> 01:39:28,920
Speaker 1: were that UM and UM. And that's just how things

1691
01:39:28,960 --> 01:39:33,559
Speaker 1: are at the moment. Okay. It's so at this point,

1692
01:39:33,840 --> 01:39:36,639
Speaker 1: if you didn't want to have any other forms of income,

1693
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:39,160
Speaker 1: does enough come in from your songs that you could

1694
01:39:39,200 --> 01:39:42,759
Speaker 1: live a comfortable life. Yes, And that's what's been wonderful,

1695
01:39:43,040 --> 01:39:45,200
Speaker 1: because the thing is it it means that we can

1696
01:39:46,080 --> 01:39:50,479
Speaker 1: we can do what we want through enthusiasm and energy UM.

1697
01:39:50,840 --> 01:39:56,840
Speaker 1: And we can still do the absolutely rejuvenating thing of

1698
01:39:57,000 --> 01:39:59,920
Speaker 1: continuing to make music in the way that we've always

1699
01:40:00,000 --> 01:40:04,160
Speaker 1: aid music and and and get excited about how we're recording,

1700
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:07,840
Speaker 1: and and and and through making a musical idea of

1701
01:40:07,880 --> 01:40:11,720
Speaker 1: work and and seeing that start to come together. Um

1702
01:40:12,360 --> 01:40:17,240
Speaker 1: and and and the thing is those early things from

1703
01:40:17,320 --> 01:40:21,120
Speaker 1: she's not there time of the season and tell her no,

1704
01:40:21,400 --> 01:40:24,280
Speaker 1: hold your head up, and one or two other things. Um,

1705
01:40:25,360 --> 01:40:28,920
Speaker 1: they that they've really provided a fantastic income which has

1706
01:40:29,000 --> 01:40:31,600
Speaker 1: given the freedom to be able to do what we

1707
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:34,880
Speaker 1: want to do. Um. You know, because this is a

1708
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:37,880
Speaker 1: very short life really that everybody has. As you get older,

1709
01:40:37,960 --> 01:40:41,880
Speaker 1: it feels shorter and shorter, and it just means that

1710
01:40:42,400 --> 01:40:46,760
Speaker 1: that you know, you can actually you can actually um

1711
01:40:47,760 --> 01:40:51,479
Speaker 1: continue to do what you want to do and to

1712
01:40:51,640 --> 01:40:55,280
Speaker 1: build things, and to continue to write and and then

1713
01:40:55,360 --> 01:40:58,080
Speaker 1: have that wonderful, rejuvenating feeling of being able to go

1714
01:40:58,240 --> 01:41:01,479
Speaker 1: on the road um and and see people who a

1715
01:41:01,640 --> 01:41:06,040
Speaker 1: completely different generation often respond to what we're doing, um

1716
01:41:06,160 --> 01:41:10,280
Speaker 1: and getting that energy back from from people sometimes. I mean,

1717
01:41:11,439 --> 01:41:14,320
Speaker 1: obviously we've got people of our our own age who

1718
01:41:14,400 --> 01:41:17,680
Speaker 1: listened to us, but also we have some very young

1719
01:41:17,760 --> 01:41:20,160
Speaker 1: people as well. We always have a young component in

1720
01:41:20,240 --> 01:41:23,680
Speaker 1: the audience. UM. And and the thought of still being

1721
01:41:23,720 --> 01:41:28,439
Speaker 1: able to still be able to connect with people of

1722
01:41:28,520 --> 01:41:31,960
Speaker 1: a present generation is it's really unlooked for and quite

1723
01:41:32,000 --> 01:41:35,360
Speaker 1: extraordinary and and and that's something that I would never

1724
01:41:35,760 --> 01:41:38,559
Speaker 1: have dreamed of. Actually, so I think we feel very

1725
01:41:38,600 --> 01:41:41,920
Speaker 1: lucky to be at that point. Well, right, this has

1726
01:41:42,000 --> 01:41:45,600
Speaker 1: been brilliant. You're a great storyteller. Thanks so much for

1727
01:41:45,720 --> 01:41:48,439
Speaker 1: taking the time to talk to me. Oh, thanks so much.

1728
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:52,160
Speaker 1: Thank you. Till next time. This is Barberth Sex