WEBVTT - 25% of US Nurses Consider Quitting in 2023 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:03.600 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:08.119 Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. To remember 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.119 yesterday we were talking. You actually highlighted this uh and 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:13.160 put it on all of our radar earlier in the morning. 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:14.880 It was a Bloomberg Big take, and it was a 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.759 story that really talked about COVID. And we're not just 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.319 talking about long COVID. We're talking about three quarters of 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:24.760 survivors of critical COVID illness developing post intensive care syndrome. 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.120 It's a constellation of brain, lung and other physical problems 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:30.479 within three months of discharge. And this was from a 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.600 study that was put out in May. UH it rendered 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.080 some seven fifty thousand post i c U patients worldwide 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:40.240 at risk of cognitive dysfunction in the pandemics first year alone. 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:42.280 It's the result of some of the treatment that people 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.080 got when they went into the hospital. Uh. There are 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:48.400 some for some long term repercussion. We're not talking mild 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:50.920 COVID here. We're talking intubations. People who have been in 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.240 the su and the like. Yeah, and it's a tough 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.360 way of living for some individuals. It also puts more 0:00:55.360 --> 0:00:57.800 strain and stresses on the health care system and economy. 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:00.720 And someone who's very aware of the stresses that are 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:02.960 out there already when it comes to healthcare and nurses 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.440 in particular is Dr Iman Abuse. She's CEO and co 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.760 founder at Incredible Health. We always remind you that her 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.000 company is all about connecting hospitals with nurses and other 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.600 healthcare workers. She really has her finger when it comes 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.280 to the health care community and nurses in particular. Dr 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.319 is great to have you back with us. It's been 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.520 sometime since we last connected. We always love to ask 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:27.280 you about what you're seeing on the platform right now, 0:01:27.360 --> 0:01:29.800 what you're seeing when it comes to the nurses that 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.320 you connect with hospitals around the country, because it has 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.000 been a tough three years for them. Is it getting 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:39.479 any better? Thank you so much for having me. Uh So, 0:01:40.160 --> 0:01:42.080 there's some aspects that are getting better and some that 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:46.360 are not so. As we're going into three we're expecting 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.680 continuing wage inflation among permanent nurse workers. Uh you know, 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:53.480 and that's been you know, the wage increases have been 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.520 going on for multiple years now. That's a good thing. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.000 Is that a good thing? Like playing catch up with 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.000 what many would argue, Um, you know, healthcare workers, nurses 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.560 in particular, being underpaid. It's it's honestly a result of 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:09.800 just supply and demand and balances. When there's big labor shortages, 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:12.400 then then employers have to pay more for the labor 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:15.160 um And the other thing we're seeing as we're going 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.400 into next year is just higher high vacancy rates. The 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:21.720 US healthcare system has the highest vacancy rates in nursing 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.840 than in the history of the US healthcare system. Uh 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.040 and uh increasingly that we're seeing the highest turnovers ever 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:32.000 as well. So at is the annual turnover right now, 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.120 which is the highest it's ever been because of how 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:37.400 hard the job is. Is it because they should be 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:39.680 getting paid more? I mean, how much are they getting paid? 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:42.239 Why are we having such a problem here? Yeah, So 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.960 the big challenge is as a result of the pandemic, 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:49.120 there aren't enough Even prior to the pandemic, there weren't 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.160 enough nurses. The pandemic made that challenge even even worse. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.040 And so we're seeing very high levels of burnout and 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.639 nurses leaving the profession, either choosing to retire early or 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:02.639 leaving the profession permanent, or and there's also not enough 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:06.519 nurses being trained either, so it's a multifaceted problem for 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.160 why the turnover is so high. They are being overworked though, 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:11.040 dr abuzaid. You know, one of the things I think 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.119 about when it comes to immigration policy because I've often 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:16.799 been in hospitals where a lot of the nursing community 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:19.840 are immigrants, folks who have come from other countries, and 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.720 I do wonder as we look at what could potentially be, 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.480 you know, really life threatening shortages if we don't have 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:28.239 the nursing community there in our health care system. You know, 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:31.840 do we need to think about on a national level, 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.560 federal level when it comes to immigration policy of allowing 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:38.880 more in to potentially help the gaps that you are 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.360 facing in your community is facing absolutely, I mean, the 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:45.280 nursing shortage is the biggest labor shortage in the country, 0:03:45.720 --> 0:03:48.440 and of course other countries are having their own shortages 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:50.280 as well, so it's not a full proof solution to 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:52.920 just bring them from from outside. However, you know, we've 0:03:52.960 --> 0:03:55.480 seen record low levels of immigration into the U s 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.280 since two thousand sixteen, and we certainly don't have and 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.880 it's not keeping up with the demand the health care system. 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.080 So what's the what are the policy choices that need 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:06.840 that you know, policymakers need to make in order to 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.040 fix this. So it's this is not a new conversation 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:12.320 that we're having by any means, And it's like, hello, 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:14.920 we're just not getting the message here, right, So it's 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.640 gonna take multiple parties to address this. Government health care 0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:20.920 systems are educational systems, so on. So one thing I 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.480 know for sure for health care systems in particular is 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.920 that they are investing more and more in nurse career 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.600 advancement UH and more flexible scheduling because those those two 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:33.360 taxics in particular do encourage nurses to stay UH. And 0:04:33.400 --> 0:04:35.680 the number one reason why nurses are looking acuity job 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:37.720 is they're looking for more career advancement. And then the 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:39.920 second most common reason is they're looking for more work 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.680 life balance and and and a more flexible schedule. So 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.040 the health systems that are adapting to that are are 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.400 having a stronger retention. I also do wonder about in society. 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:49.680 I have a sister who is a nurse. I mean 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:51.960 we're talking, you know, decades ago, who also went out 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:53.840 to becoming an engineer. But she also then went back 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.400 to nursing and got a master's. But what I'm wondering 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:01.400 is do people not want to be nurses anymore? And 0:05:01.520 --> 0:05:06.400 how do you maybe change that? Sure? So, actually there's 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.599 record levels of applicants to nursing schools, so there are 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:11.680 there is a lot of demand from Americans who want 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:14.479 to become nurses. Unfortunately we don't are nursing schools can't 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.440 handle more capacity to train even more. Uh, they don't 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.240 have enough faculty too, because the faculties, uh you know, 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.760 they're losing them as well. And then there's another ball 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.880 in that happening after nursing school there aren't enough training 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:28.920 programs at hospitals and health systems across the country to 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.840 train large, large and larger cohorts of nursing um. And 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.120 then we also have the retirement challenge. This is an 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.359 at the average age of the US nursing workforce right 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.600 now is fifty two years old. Fortunately, we don't have 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.840 an aging population here in the United States that will 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.120 need long term care right And I'm obviously the infacetious 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:51.040 here alert So listen, I think I have I'm hopeful 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:53.080 for the future. I think market forces are really going 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.600 to force them. Are are already forcing change and UH 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.280 and and enforcing many many parties that talk to talk 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:03.359 about that a little of forces. So we're seeing hospitals 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:06.320 and health systems invest more in nursing career advancement, both 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:10.720 leadership training programs, cross training programs, specialization programs. We're also 0:06:10.800 --> 0:06:14.360 seeing um more and more flexibility on their schedules in 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.800 addition to adding more part time roles, more we can 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:19.400 shift options. Just to make you know, nursing a more 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.160 sustainable profession with a with a very with a very 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.760 busy life and the very and the various strains of 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:28.320 the of the job. What do nurses get paid? Uh, 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:32.039 it varies by depending on the state, depending on the specialty. 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.760 I'm in California right now, so they have the average 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.880 nursing salary in California is a hundred and twenty dollars. 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:42.760 Nationally the average is about eighty thou dollars. We're talking 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:47.120 hard work here, though, I mean long days. UH, some 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:50.200 flexibility when it comes to your schedule, right, but this 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:51.960 is really tough work and that's why we see so 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.479 much turnover. Absolutely, and then also you know, the pandemic 0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:57.440 didn't help with that, with the with the strain and 0:06:57.520 --> 0:06:59.480 anxiety that comes with a job too. What are you 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.240 seeing are you hearing from the nursing community a kind 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:04.479 of what's going on in hospitals? I guess what I'm 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:06.280 asking you is we talked a lot about COVID and 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:08.800 the impact. Um what we're seeing. Are they seeing any 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.360 kind of upticks or anything new that makes you a 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.400 little bit worried about what's to come? Yeah, so we 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.320 are still seeing very high levels of stress and burnout. Uh. 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.160 And then the other thing we're seeing those is you know, 0:07:20.240 --> 0:07:23.080 we we we have six hundred thousand nurses on our platforms. 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:25.280 Over ten percent of the U S nursing workforce uses 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:27.720 incredible health And we often ask why why are you 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:29.560 leaving your job or why are you considering a new job? 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:31.440 The number one reason why far as you're looking for 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:33.680 career advancement. The number two is that are looking more 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.200 for more flexible scheduling. Number three is are trying to 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.800 relocate or reduce their communite time. And then number four 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:41.280 is more pay. And it's in that order. And so 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.040 the hospitals and health systems that are putting together strategies, tactics, 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.600 programs that address those reasons are the ones that are 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.960 having the most success with hiring entertaining the talent. What 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:52.840 do they end up going and doing when nurses leave 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.600 the industry. I actually don't have much, to be honest, 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:58.160 I don't have a whole lot of data on that. 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:01.840 I just know that in the next twelve months of 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:06.680 nurses are considering leading the depression permanently. This just came 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:08.600 to mind. But I've and this is just anecdotal, but 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:10.480 I've spoken to a couple of people who are in 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:13.720 healthcare recently. One is an acupuncturist and others a physical therapist, 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:16.240 and both of them have told me that throughout the pandemic, 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:18.040 what they found is they don't necessarily have the tool 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.160 kits that are required to deal with what people want 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.600 right now. They end up feeling like they're therapists in 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.240 many cases when they're spending time with patients. Are you 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.600 hearing that from nurses, UM, we are. We're also seeing 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:34.360 nurses going to completely other industries to including technology, you know, 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:36.640 including other types of healthcare professions. I guess what I'm 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:38.960 saying is, like, what their training didn't set them up 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.400 for the way that patients are interacting with them. UM, 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.679 there's definitely more room for improvement in nurse training that 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:45.840 that that's for sure. But that's a forever thing. That's 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.120 you know, you can always get better. All Right, We're 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:49.839 gonna leave it on that note. Listen, take care of 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:53.040 a good holiday season and stay safe. Always fun to 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.000 check in with you, Dr Iman Abuse not only fun 0:08:56.080 --> 0:08:58.760 but really informative. She's co founder in chief executive officer 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:01.960 of Incredible Health, joining us via zoom from Austin, Texas. 0:09:02.120 --> 0:09:04.520 You know, it's interesting truly. My sister, you know, years 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:06.439 ago she had gone to college and wanted to be 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:08.319 a nurse, and she went to a nursing like a 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.439 two year nursing school program that was straight through. And 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.920 it's interesting the school has it was top in the country, 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:18.319 but it has been recently torn down as part of 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:20.560 it as part of a hospital system. So it's interesting 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:23.080 what she has to say about that the training facilities 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:25.719 are not necessarily there. And then you need, you know, 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:27.800 part of the learning experience. A big part of it 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.240 was you she would work in the hospital that was 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.160 connected to it, and you were working with patients and 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.560 learning in real time. And if you don't have those 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:38.679 hospital affiliations, it's just not the same thing. So who 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.920 takes care of us if we can't find the nurses. Gosh, 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.200 we're gonna go back to multigenerations. We're gonna need living 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:44.800 together so that we can take care of one another. 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:48.760 I look at you. You are so good luck finding 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:49.640 room in my apartment.