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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and what kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff I never told you protection of by Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and we're thrilled to once again be joined by bridget Todd,

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Speaker 1: the wonderful, the marvelous, the magnificent, and the very busy.

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Speaker 2: We have missed you, Bridget Yes.

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Speaker 3: I have missed you all too, my favorite authors. It's

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Speaker 3: nice to be in the company of some literary ladies.

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Speaker 4: That's sounded like a foreign language, like who are you

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Speaker 4: talking about?

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Speaker 2: You just bring on guests. I'm here, yes, yes, are you?

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Speaker 2: Do you enjoy write it?

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Speaker 5: I used to enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: I was the kind of person who would labor over

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Speaker 3: every sentence, every word choice, and so writing a paragraph

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Speaker 3: would take me forever. It's one of the reasons why

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Speaker 3: I'm a podcaster, because I feel it's so much easier

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Speaker 3: to say it verbally. Once I started podcasting, I was

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Speaker 3: like writing, who I don't know her? Say it verbally.

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Speaker 3: But I used to enjoy it, Like I used to

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Speaker 3: like send pitches to freelance editors and stuff, and but yeah,

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Speaker 3: much less lately.

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Speaker 5: How about you?

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Speaker 3: What is your relationship to writing? The both of you

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Speaker 3: now that you're going to be published authors.

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Speaker 1: I love it. I we've we've talked about on the show.

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Speaker 1: Samantha and I have both done Nana Raimo, which I

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Speaker 1: know makes a lot of like editors roll their eyes,

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Speaker 1: but done that, and I have recently, during the pandemic

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Speaker 1: written a ton of fan fiction, like a actual shocking

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Speaker 1: amount perhaps which I've started publishing two I'll say rave reviews.

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Speaker 4: It's true she has a man art. I do.

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Speaker 5: People made art.

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Speaker 2: I got it.

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Speaker 5: People like it, Yes.

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Speaker 2: People like it, So I do love it. It is

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Speaker 2: something I enjoy.

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Speaker 1: But I guess one of the things about Nano Raimo

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Speaker 1: and fan fiction to a lesser extent is I was

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Speaker 1: kind of like you bridget with the editing and I

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Speaker 1: would get some in my head and like, this isn't perfect,

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Speaker 1: this isn't perfect. But Nano Raimo is like, I don't care,

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Speaker 1: get it done, but it has to happen. And then

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Speaker 1: you go back and maybe you get stuck in the

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Speaker 1: editing again. But it was a real nice for me

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Speaker 1: thing to do of getting out of my head and

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Speaker 1: just writing it.

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Speaker 2: And now we're reading some of that stuff on Spinty.

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Speaker 1: And then with fan fiction, it's nice because it's like

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Speaker 1: literally people like use this as an argument against it,

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, no, this is an argument for it.

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Speaker 1: Like it's a hobby and it's fun, Like I'm not

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Speaker 1: worried about like people will enjoy it.

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Speaker 2: I like it.

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Speaker 1: It's not gonna go anywhere, and that's fine, But I

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Speaker 1: just like doing it and I like writing, and it's

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Speaker 1: definitely kind of therapeutic for me.

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Speaker 4: Right, I don't do a lot of writing anymore. My

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Speaker 4: form of writing has always been fiction. But I'm also

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Speaker 4: one of those who it's the mood. The way my

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Speaker 4: mood fluctuates is how it goes. And the more depressive

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Speaker 4: I am, the more likely I'm going to write, And

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Speaker 4: the more depressive and likely I'm going to write, it's

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Speaker 4: gonna be sad. So I try to stay away from

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Speaker 4: that because I'm more fictional than anything else. I think,

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Speaker 4: for the most part, doing this type of work was

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Speaker 4: a whole different beast. Doing things like when we write

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Speaker 4: scripts and outlines and researching has been such a whole

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Speaker 4: different beast that it's kind of the only way I

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Speaker 4: do it now. Just come to just space out. I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I'm done. I'm not touching a pencil, pen or the

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Speaker 4: typewriter or a keyboard typewriter. I'm that old. That's how

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Speaker 4: long it's been.

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Speaker 5: All the quill pen.

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Speaker 4: Look, guys, I love typewriters. I love them so much.

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Speaker 4: I wish I could have like several, because I like

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Speaker 4: I would collect them, kind of like Tom Hanks does

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Speaker 4: if I had the money.

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Speaker 5: I had one in college. I thought I was so hip.

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Speaker 5: I didn't. I didn't use it. It was it was just

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Speaker 5: to like have and make me feel cool.

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Speaker 3: You know, any any to your point about being able

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Speaker 3: to have outlets to write where you're not you're not

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Speaker 3: so in your head about it. Like, that's something that

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Speaker 3: I think is really important about, like having a craft

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Speaker 3: that you're honing.

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Speaker 5: I have a post it ode on my laptop that

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Speaker 5: I'm looking at right now that says.

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Speaker 3: Do it because it's like for me, so often the

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Speaker 3: need to do something perfect or to produce something really

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Speaker 3: good just keeps me from doing anything. And so I like,

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Speaker 3: I think that we need to have outlets where the

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Speaker 3: point is doing it. The point is like actually putting

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Speaker 3: pen to paper or finger to keyboard and not really

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Speaker 3: being in your head and.

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Speaker 5: Worrying about like is it perfect?

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Speaker 3: And so I think, like, yeah, like times like the

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Speaker 3: National Novel Writing Month. Having things like that like that

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Speaker 3: kind of get you in the practice of just like

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Speaker 3: just focus on writing, execute, just.

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Speaker 5: Write, don't worry about it. Edit it later. Can be

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Speaker 5: really really powerful.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: They have a scriptwriting month too for people who do

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Speaker 4: need to Speaking of which, Annie has also other wars

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Speaker 4: that are not necessarily published, but they have been out

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Speaker 4: because she's done with the Twelve Days of Halloween the

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Speaker 4: all of that, So she's got work out there she has.

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Speaker 4: I feel like she didn't. She's not known, but she

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Speaker 4: definitely has credit.

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Speaker 2: I was just waiting for you to.

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Speaker 4: Say, I know you need someone else to I got to.

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Speaker 3: It's so funny how like it's so much easier to

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Speaker 3: like hype up a friend than it is to hype

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Speaker 3: up your own work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god. It just feels and I think

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Speaker 1: this is a lot of like conditioning we have. It

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Speaker 1: just feels like you're as a woman, like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: drawing too much attention to myself for oh, like what

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Speaker 1: if it's not that good?

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Speaker 4: Right, Like it's that good anyway, So you don't want

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Speaker 4: to talk about.

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Speaker 3: It, and no one wants to see no one wants

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Speaker 3: to seem like a bragger, but you should be bragging.

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Speaker 3: We should all be bragging. My friend Meredith Finder notte

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Speaker 3: a book called Brag Better that's all about the importance

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Speaker 3: of women bragging. Brag on yourself everyone and Sam and

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Speaker 3: listeners and listeners.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, well, speaking of I know you've been up

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Speaker 1: to a lot of stuff, bridget Do you want to

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Speaker 1: give us any highlights of what we talked?

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Speaker 5: What's happened?

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Speaker 3: Well, we have relaunched season four of my podcast There

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Speaker 3: Are No Girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 5: We launched it I think last week.

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Speaker 3: That's right, So I've been It's been one of those

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Speaker 3: speaking of like doing it crappy and just like getting

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Speaker 3: it out.

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Speaker 5: It was I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've been doing this podcast for years now,

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Speaker 3: but like got a little bit in my head and

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Speaker 3: was like paralyzed.

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Speaker 5: With an inability to just like do the thing.

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Speaker 3: Had some stuff to work through there, but you know,

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Speaker 3: it got done and it is people can listen to it.

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Speaker 3: It's ongoing now you can check it out. So that

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Speaker 3: was really exciting. We wrapped another podcast with Next Chapter

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Speaker 3: Podcasts called Beef, all about historical beef's and rivalries, which

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Speaker 3: is a kind of side interest of mine. Listen to

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Speaker 3: all eight episodes. It was super fun to make. My

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Speaker 3: favorite was.

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Speaker 5: Probably Anne Landers and Dear Abby. Did you know they

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Speaker 5: were sisters? I didn't know that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they were like sisters who had this intense rivalry

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Speaker 3: because they were both advice calumnists.

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Speaker 5: Fascinating stuff. Definitely check it out. Yeah, exciting times.

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Speaker 4: That's interesting. I wonder what like family events were, because

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Speaker 4: you know, those were the times that you sit together

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Speaker 4: and kind of moll over whatever troubles you might have,

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Speaker 4: boyfriend troubles, and the both of them trying to give

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Speaker 4: you advice. How annoying would that be?

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Speaker 5: I know, can you imagine my head?

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Speaker 4: I'd be like, Okay, one was bad enough, but both

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Speaker 4: of you have to put in your two says and

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Speaker 4: sound like your therapist. That's even worse.

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Speaker 5: God, you know, Christmas Dinners were a love that family.

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Speaker 2: Geez, was there advice like similar?

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Speaker 3: No, that was something that they had very distinctive advice styles.

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Speaker 3: One of them their the her advice was like much

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Speaker 3: more kind of like traditional. Another's was like their her

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Speaker 3: advice was much more like progressive. They had they had

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Speaker 3: different attitudes, like they accepted things like you know, like

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Speaker 3: gay rights and like having people like gay couples come

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Speaker 3: in with advice. They accepted those things on very different timelines,

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Speaker 3: like they had very different styles of advice. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: and it's fascinating. Uh, people should like if.

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Speaker 5: You were gonna, if you were interested.

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Speaker 3: That's the episode I feel but that's the one that

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Speaker 3: I feel like is like I learned the most about advice.

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Speaker 5: Well, I'll say one more thing.

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Speaker 3: This is like I'm going on way too long, but

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Speaker 3: it's I'm fascinated by it. Advice columns were kind of

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Speaker 3: predated this like Internet era idea of people publishing things

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Speaker 3: and then the readers being able to write in before

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Speaker 3: the days of the internet, in print the only place

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Speaker 3: where people would publish something, and then the readers would

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Speaker 3: then submit letters being like oh I don't know about that,

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Speaker 3: or submit letters at all, and you know, getting advice

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Speaker 3: was advice columns. And so the whole concept of a

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Speaker 3: readership being in conversation and in dialogue with a print

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Speaker 3: publisher that is now like part of the Internet really

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Speaker 3: got it start in advice columns. So fun fact, that's random.

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Speaker 2: So were you abby?

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Speaker 4: Your team is an you said, alienators?

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Speaker 5: I what a good question. I identify the team.

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Speaker 4: As a beef, there's a team.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, if there's a beef, there's a team. Exactly.

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Speaker 3: At times I identify with both. I think that dear

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Speaker 3: Abby definitely struck me as the pettier of the two,

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Speaker 3: and so I definitely saw a lot of myself in that.

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Speaker 3: So I at times I feel I see both.

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Speaker 5: I see myself in both of them.

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Speaker 3: Put it that way, Oh that's great, good, Yes, I

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Speaker 3: definitely I need to check that out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because for some reason, my Google updates all the

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Speaker 1: time to this day like gives me these kinds of

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Speaker 1: questions people are apparently still asking to advice columnist and

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Speaker 1: that when I read them, I'm like, this is wild,

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Speaker 1: this is a thing that is.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, I read advice columns.

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Speaker 3: It's like it's like my one of my favorite things.

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Speaker 3: I read advice columns every day. It's funny because I

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Speaker 3: was just talking to someone about an advice column I

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Speaker 3: read yesterday.

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Speaker 5: I think it was in.

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Speaker 3: Slate where a woman had set her single coworker up

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Speaker 3: with a friend of hers and they went on a

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Speaker 3: date at a bar and the coworker was like, well,

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Speaker 3: we're not we can't go out again. And she was

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Speaker 3: like why and it was because her friend at the

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Speaker 3: bar ordered a glass of plain milk.

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Speaker 5: And he was like, I can't see her again.

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Speaker 3: And so the letter writer was like, how could I

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Speaker 3: convince him that he's being ridiculous and like, let her

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Speaker 3: order whatever she wants.

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Speaker 5: She's a catch.

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Speaker 3: The weird petty stuff that people write into advice columns,

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Speaker 3: it just I'm endlessly fascinated by it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I feel like the update to that is the whole Creddit,

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Speaker 4: which I adore obviously.

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Speaker 5: Oh I love them. I love them. And like there

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Speaker 5: are podcasts where people people just read them. Yes, I'm addictions.

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Speaker 4: That's the entire podcast is they just read it and

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Speaker 4: then they talk about it. I'm like, wow, that's simple.

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Speaker 4: Can we do that? Yeah?

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Speaker 5: No, like six page research.

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Speaker 4: On no, no need twelve pages of things and reading

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Speaker 4: horrible things, thank you. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But it also just underscores like how people are doing

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Speaker 1: all kinds of things that I'm shocked by all the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really, It's so true, And like reading advice

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Speaker 3: columns and all of the like am I like humans

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Speaker 3: are fascinating. We are, we have fascinating motivations. We our

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Speaker 3: behavior is really fascinating. Like the ability for humans and

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Speaker 3: our behavior and our range of behaviors will.

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Speaker 5: Never cease to surprise me.

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Speaker 3: I'll put it that way, both in negative ways and

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Speaker 3: positive ways.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, yes, yes, well, I guess kind of like

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Speaker 6: segueing into technology, and it's changed how things are happening

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Speaker 6: and how we operate.

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Speaker 1: The topic you've bought today is so important, and I

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Speaker 1: know it's a question that a lot of people have,

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Speaker 1: So what are we talking about today?

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Speaker 3: So this is an important topic. You know, it's almost

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Speaker 3: been almost a year since the Supreme Court overturned ro

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Speaker 3: versus Wade, And after that happened, probably immediately, one of

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Speaker 3: the biggest issues that came up was this connection between

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Speaker 3: technology and abortion access. You know, like should I delete

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Speaker 3: my period tracker app? Like what like can I google abortion?

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Speaker 3: Am I going to go to jail? And so namely

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Speaker 3: this idea that all of the data from our smartphones

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Speaker 3: could and would be used to prosecute abortions. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: back in the day, in the days before row in

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy three, you know, it was a rough landscape

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Speaker 3: for abortion access. Obviously, we've made some really good progress,

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Speaker 3: you know, because of the expansion of things like pill

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Speaker 3: based abortion and you know, the ability to get pills

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Speaker 3: by mail. But in the days before Row in the seventies,

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Speaker 3: we'd all didn't carry like GPS devices in our pocket

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Speaker 3: or have this vast virtual network of mass surveillance that

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Speaker 3: could help criminalize people who need abortions in the communities

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Speaker 3: that help them.

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Speaker 5: And I am.

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Speaker 3: Sorry to say that Google, but the thing that most

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Speaker 3: of us use for our email, for our maps, for us,

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Speaker 3: our cell phones for some of us if you use

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Speaker 3: an Android or a Google phone, is a huge part.

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Speaker 5: Of that network. And so today I want to talk

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Speaker 5: about some.

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Speaker 3: Of the ways that Google has been collecting data related

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Speaker 3: to abortions, what Google has publicly said, what they're actually doing,

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Speaker 3: and some recent movement in news in that arena.

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Speaker 4: You know, I haven't really been thinking about it because

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Speaker 4: we've talked about again as you were talking about the

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Speaker 4: period tracker and then Facebook, because we already know some

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Speaker 4: of the headlines that it's made in what they've done

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Speaker 4: and how they have helped the anti abortion movement so

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Speaker 4: much in the whole whole right winged conversation. But I

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Speaker 4: really haven't thought about Google, even though I should be, like,

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Speaker 4: obviously we know Google minds a lot of data, and

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Speaker 4: there's still conversation about how much information they keep and

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Speaker 4: they spread. But I haven't really thought of it on

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Speaker 4: like par with what's going on with abortion. So can

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Speaker 4: you kind of explain what we're talking about here totally?

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Speaker 3: So I think what you just said, Sam, I've noticed

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Speaker 3: the same thing. I think that when it comes to

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Speaker 3: a lot of online harms, people think of Facebook, people

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Speaker 3: think of Twitter. Of course, Google is an interesting case.

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Speaker 3: I do think that anecdotally, Google has been able to

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Speaker 3: skirt a lot of public scrutiny about the way that

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Speaker 3: they handle some of this stuff in a way that

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Speaker 3: other platforms have not been able to skirt that kind

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Speaker 3: of scrutiny.

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Speaker 5: I think a lot about this. I think it's because.

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Speaker 3: Google offers a useful product for the world, right like, like

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Speaker 3: Google does make platforms and tools that are helpful to us. Facebook,

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Speaker 3: I feel like, is different and that like all they

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Speaker 3: really offer is like Facebook, WhatsApp, and Instagram.

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Speaker 5: Some of those are, you know, globally, some of.

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Speaker 3: Those platforms are like really useful, but here in the

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Speaker 3: United States, I feel like if Facebook disappeared, the tool

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Speaker 3: that they offer is not really as much of a

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Speaker 3: global good as Google. And so I think that for

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Speaker 3: that reason, I think that maybe that's why Google doesn't.

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Speaker 5: Come to mind when you think about these kind of harms.

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Speaker 3: But the reality is is that Google is really a

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Speaker 3: major player when it comes to the way that our

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Speaker 3: data can be misused, specifically to criminalize abortions. And so

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Speaker 3: shortly after Roe was overturned by the Supreme Court almost

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Speaker 3: a year ago, Google said that it would proactively delete

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Speaker 3: its location data when people visited quote, particularly personal places,

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Speaker 3: including a abortion clinics, hospitals, and shelters. Their statement said,

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Speaker 3: today we're announcing that if our systems identify that someone

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Speaker 3: has visited one of these places, we will delete these

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Speaker 3: entries from location history soon after they visit. This change

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Speaker 3: will take effect in the coming weeks. And so it's

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Speaker 3: really that last part of their statement that is important.

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Speaker 3: Like what does the word soon mean? Like my definition

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Speaker 3: of soon and Google's definition of soon might be two

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Speaker 3: different things. What does this will change will take effect

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Speaker 3: in the coming weeks? It's been almost a year, Like,

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Speaker 3: is that technically that is a matter of weeks? So, like,

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Speaker 3: is that what Google is defining as a couple of

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Speaker 3: weeks wouldn't be how I define it? And so this

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Speaker 3: was something that Google publicly agreed to do.

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Speaker 5: They didn't.

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Speaker 3: They will tell you that they just like decided to

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Speaker 3: do this as a public good on their own.

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Speaker 5: That's not exactly true.

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Speaker 3: There definitely were like digital rights groups behind the scenes

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Speaker 3: pressuring them to make this choice. But at any event,

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Speaker 3: they did, and they enjoyed a lot of positive glowing

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Speaker 3: press know for doing this. However, it's been almost a

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Speaker 3: year and Google has not really followed up in any

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Speaker 3: kind of a meaningful or consistent way in their promise

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Speaker 3: to delete this location history if they think that someone

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Speaker 3: is going to an abortion clinic. And that is really

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Speaker 3: concerning because we do live in a landscape where abortion

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Speaker 3: is so easily criminalized and your digital footprint can be

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Speaker 3: used to create evidence that you have tried to illegally

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Speaker 3: access information about abortion.

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Speaker 1: Right And the thing is like a lot of times

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Speaker 1: you're using like maps or GPS to get to any place,

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Speaker 1: like to get to an abortion clinic. And I will

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Speaker 1: say about Google, like, there are a lot of things

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Speaker 1: that you don't realize it's tracking, even if because I'm

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Speaker 1: somebody who's like I go in and I turn off,

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Speaker 1: Like you're not listening to my voice, you're not doing this,

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Speaker 1: you're not doing this, it's still doing it, Like I

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Speaker 1: can't figure out how, but it is. And once I

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Speaker 1: found a map of like everywhere i'd been, even though

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Speaker 1: I don't really use GPS that much, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's because of like emails I get it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you're going on this trip or oh you're doing this

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Speaker 1: thing Like I'm trying to figure it out but I can't.

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Speaker 1: But it was creepy, like you can go and find

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Speaker 1: a map of everywhere you've been, and it is frightening

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Speaker 1: when it can be used in this very scary landscape

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Speaker 1: in a case where against abortion or something in a

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Speaker 1: case of abortion. So it's not like sometimes when you

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Speaker 1: talk about stuff like this, it can feel very as

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Speaker 1: we've said several times on this show when you've been

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Speaker 1: on like oh that's an Internet thing.

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Speaker 2: I don't see it, so it's not.

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Speaker 1: Real, but it very much is, and there is data

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Speaker 1: around this whole thing right totally.

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Speaker 5: So this is not an Internet issue.

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Speaker 3: This is not an abstract issue or a hypothetical, far

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Speaker 3: away down the line, maybe one day issue. This is

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Speaker 3: an issue that's happening to people in their real lives

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Speaker 3: right now. So, just to set the scene, according to

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Speaker 3: Google's own transparency report, they have already been subpoenaed several

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Speaker 3: times for users data. In the second half of twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty one, they received eighteen thousand and thirty seven subpoenas

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Speaker 3: and twenty three thousand, nine hundred and twenty four search

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Speaker 3: warrants for user information. So it's pretty reasonable to conclude

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Speaker 3: that prosecutors and states were abortion is illegal might already

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Speaker 3: be making requests for personal data from Google to prosecute

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Speaker 3: those looking for abortions. Also, in terms of like where

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Speaker 3: we've already seen this happening, we already know that people

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Speaker 3: have already been charged with a painting abortions or helping

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Speaker 3: somebody a pain an abortion, with their digital footprint.

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Speaker 5: Being used as evidence.

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Speaker 3: You might remember that when Roe was overturned Mark Zuckerberg,

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Speaker 3: when he was asked about it, he said that he

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Speaker 3: was hoping that encrypting Facebook's messages would help protect people

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Speaker 3: from quote overbroad requests for information, but that did not

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Speaker 3: stop the company from handing over user information. In June,

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Speaker 3: before Roe was overturned, Facebook turned over the private messages

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Speaker 3: of a mother and daughter facing criminal charges for allegedly

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Speaker 3: carrying out an illegal abortion, and so, well.

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Speaker 5: This is happening now. It is not abstract.

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Speaker 3: People are currently embroiled and in legal situations that where

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Speaker 3: they're facing jail time because tech companies were like gave

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Speaker 3: over sensitive information that they had from folks who were

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Speaker 3: allegedly looking up information about abortion or talking about abortion.

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Speaker 3: And so the reason why we have some insight into

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Speaker 3: this is because of a new report from the digital

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Speaker 3: rights organization Accountable Tech. They did a couple of different

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Speaker 3: experiments to get a sense of how Google is tracking

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Speaker 3: and whether or not they're actually deleting this location information,

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Speaker 3: and they're just not. So they said that they were

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Speaker 3: going to and they are not. Like there's not any

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Speaker 3: other way to interpret kind of what's going on here.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: And as you're talking about it, I just realized I

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Speaker 4: get monthly information about where where you went this month,

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Speaker 4: like as if this is like hey, let's monthly review,

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Speaker 4: look at you. You traveled these places, as if to celebrate.

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Speaker 4: And now that I'm thinking about it, like wait, what

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Speaker 4: if I don't want to remember where I went the

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Speaker 4: last month? What is happening and I don't remember ever

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Speaker 4: saying yes I want this information, Yes, I want it

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Speaker 4: to be recorded, and yes, I want to be given

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Speaker 4: back to me. So if they have that so easily

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Speaker 4: given without me even prompting or asking for it, I

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Speaker 4: can't imagine what they actually have. And honestly, I can't

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Speaker 4: imagine how they decide what to delete if they're doing

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Speaker 4: specific locations, like how that would even come up, as

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Speaker 4: well as the fact that, yeah, if they have pinpointed

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Speaker 4: specific locations that would be easily trackable and easily used

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Speaker 4: against someone, right.

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Speaker 3: Totally, And Sam, your point is such a good one,

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Speaker 3: and I think it's a good like it provides a good,

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Speaker 3: zoomed out understanding of the issue, right because I get

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Speaker 3: those two like I've talked about this on my own

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Speaker 3: show about the Spotify rap, which I always enjoy getting.

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Speaker 3: But all of these ways that we have been condition

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Speaker 3: to believe that surveillance is a good thing, Like oh,

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Speaker 3: I want to get a summary of all the different

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Speaker 3: places I've traveled in the last month. How and it's

443
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 3: you know, all these pictures of where I was set

444
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:15,120
Speaker 3: to music that might feel exciting to get. And I'm

445
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 3: certainly susceptible to being excited to information about how I've

446
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 3: lived in my life but that is digital surveillance and

447
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 3: the way that we've been conditioned to think it is

448
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 3: not just commonplace to have our devices and our platforms

449
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 3: tracked and surveilled by big tech companies and used for

450
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 3: profit by those companies, but that we should be happy

451
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 3: that it's actually like cool and fun to see this

452
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,160
Speaker 3: information about ourselves and get these little, you know, summaries

453
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,160
Speaker 3: of what we listened to, where we went, what things

454
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 3: we bought, what we ate all of that, Like, there

455
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 3: really needs to be a fundamental reassessment of the relationship

456
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 3: between users and tech companies when it comes to our data,

457
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 3: because we deserve privacy.

458
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 5: Privacy should be the standard.

459
00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 3: But even if you dress it up with a little

460
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 3: mon or a little newsletter or whatever, that is still

461
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 3: surveillance and we should ultimately be questioning whether that, like

462
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 3: that fundamental relationship between user and platform. That's my soapbox

463
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 3: about about surveillance. Like I get upset about it because

464
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 3: it gets me too, Like I, even though I know

465
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 3: all of this stuff and I feel very strongly about it,

466
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 3: when I get a pretty you know breakdown of what

467
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 3: I listened to at the end of the year, I

468
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: like it. And so's it's so insidious how we've been

469
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 3: trained to like things that ultimately may not be good

470
00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 3: for us.

471
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I did. I was thinking about this the

472
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: other day because when I was in third grade, I

473
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 1: wrote this. We were supposed to tell a story, and

474
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: I wrote this story called the Right to be Forgotten.

475
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,479
Speaker 1: I was like, what was going on with me? Great title,

476
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: I know, but now to say it became a case

477
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: against Google where people were like, I don't want to

478
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 1: be remembered in certain ways where you can search me

479
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 1: on the Internet, and it was a case with the EU,

480
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: and so I revisited it like a couple of years

481
00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:05,719
Speaker 1: ago as an actor, and I did like the Right

482
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: to be Forgotten.

483
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,439
Speaker 2: And people afterwards were like, what are you talking about?

484
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: The kind of that idea of like maybe I just

485
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: don't want people to know there are certain parts I

486
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 1: just want to be private.

487
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: Oh my god, it is a time traveler, everybody.

488
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 3: It is wild that you're saying this literally. Yesterday I

489
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 3: did an interview with a UCLA Internet researcher named Olivia

490
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 3: Snow and we were talking. We were supplicitly talking about

491
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 3: the right to be forgotten when it comes to platforms.

492
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 3: I cannot believe that this is a concept that you

493
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 3: have been you know, grappling with since you were a child.

494
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 4: She does this a lot. There things that pop up

495
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 4: like she's like, that was my idea. I was like,

496
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 4: what ten years old?

497
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: When I was nine, I was doing that was like

498
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: the year I wrote out like all the like top

499
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: things I wanted to do before I died, Like.

500
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: I don't know what was going on going on? It's okay.

501
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: Well, going back to that study you mentioned, the accountable

502
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 1: tech thing, they did run a couple of specific experiments, right, Yeah,

503
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: it's really interesting.

504
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to kind of gloss over it, but folks

505
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 3: should definitely check out the study.

506
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 5: You can find that online.

507
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 3: But essentially they did I think three different experiments where

508
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 3: they had a staffer buy an unused, totally new Android

509
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 3: smartphone and then start a new test Google account and

510
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 3: they accepted all the default privacy settings, and they had

511
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 3: to staffer travel from one state to another two different

512
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 3: abortion providers, so in one and they traveled from Columbus,

513
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 3: Ohio to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and wound up that like planned

514
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 3: Parenthood of Pittsburgh and to see, you know, later how

515
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 3: that data would be handled In one test, a staffer

516
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: when they logged into the test account that they made

517
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 3: on her browser, so like she took her.

518
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 5: She took the phone to the clinic.

519
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: And then when she logged on on the browser I

520
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 3: think thirty days later under the Web and App activity

521
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: tab after she completed this test, she found a Google

522
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,199
Speaker 3: Map search query from the abortion provider that she visited

523
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,719
Speaker 3: stored on her account, So like, they're just not deleting

524
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 3: the data, like it's just like there's no other way

525
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: to interpret that information. And they did these tests in

526
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 3: three different ways, and each time there was some information

527
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 3: continued to be stored on these Google accounts, and so

528
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 3: according to Accountable Test, by retaining both location search query

529
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 3: and location history data, Google jeopardizes the health, safety, and

530
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: legal status of the users who visit reproductive care facilities

531
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 3: in states where abortion is criminalized.

532
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 5: If prosecutors in a state with.

533
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 3: A restrictive abortion law receive a tip about someone seeking

534
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 3: an abortion, a subpoena would likely force Google to hand

535
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 3: over this sensitive data. And again just to underscore that,

536
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 3: Google said that they were going to delete this data

537
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:04,479
Speaker 3: soon after a person visited. What they said was going

538
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: to was one of these sensitive sites, including abortion providers.

539
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,439
Speaker 3: And so this test that accountable Tech ran thirty days

540
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,880
Speaker 3: is how does how was Google defining soon in this situation?

541
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 5: Right?

542
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 3: Like I would argue that a month is enough time

543
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 3: to have deleted this, but perhaps Google disagrees. And so

544
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: it does really feel like this is a situation where

545
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 3: they're I mean, I'm no lawyer, but misleading the public

546
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 3: saying publicly they're doing one thing and then doing another

547
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 3: thing in actuality.

548
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 5: That could get people in serious legal trouble, you know.

549
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: Right, And that's that's the thing is like, I know

550
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about this later, but if if

551
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: company is telling me a thing, you know, I think

552
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,200
Speaker 1: a lot of people use the word like they call

553
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 1: me naive, which I don't think is fair. But like

554
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: if I'm like, oh, I trust that because that's what

555
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 1: they said, and then it could be used in a

556
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 1: criminal case despite what they said, like that feels both

557
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: wrong illegal, but also it's very scary, Like that is

558
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: very frightening scenario.

559
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: Exactly, and I think it really underscores how scary and

560
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 3: dire and complicated things can be for someone who is pregnant, right,

561
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 3: Like it's already it can already be a scary, intense time.

562
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 3: But adding on to this vibe of you can't trust

563
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 3: what these companies who say they are going to do

564
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 3: X to keep you safe a little bit more you

565
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: can't trust what they're saying. It just adds to this

566
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 3: complex web where it's difficult to know who you can trust.

567
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 5: And so I should note that most today, according to.

568
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 3: The Washington Post, most criminal charges for abortion are stemmed

569
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 3: from a human telling the authorities, not just from your

570
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: digital footprint being scraped by Google or something like that.

571
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 3: But we know that your digital footprint can be used

572
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 3: as evidence. And so you know, we live in this

573
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 3: climate where the condictive ex lovers, nosy neighbors, or even

574
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 3: just self appointed vigilantes who may have no connection to

575
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 3: someone who is pregnant at all, all of these people

576
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 3: can be threats. In Texas, a man filed a wrongful

577
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 3: death lawsuit against three women for allegedly helping his then

578
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 3: wife of pain pills that allegedly were used to induce

579
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 3: an abortion last year. If you're someone who is looking

580
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 3: for an abortion in a state where it's been criminalized,

581
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: not only do you need to think about who you

582
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 3: can trust, who has access to this information about you

583
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: who's in your community again, like even just like your

584
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: nosy neighbor next door who doesn't like you for no reason.

585
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: But also on top of that, you need to think

586
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: about your digital security. You need to think about how

587
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 3: you are accessing information and data online, and you need

588
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 3: to think about whether or not Google is being upfront

589
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 3: about what they're publicly saying about how they use that data.

590
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: It is an incredibly high burden that nobody should have

591
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 3: to deal with. It's already hard enough to be in

592
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 3: this situation. On top of it, you should not, as

593
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: a regular person, have to be parsing lies from a

594
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: platform like Google to make choices for your life and

595
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 3: for your health.

596
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: I know that you came on and talked about it,

597
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: I think pretty soon after roe versus Wade got overturned.

598
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: But kind of the like.

599
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 1: Unfortunate tips that people need to know about, like you know,

600
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 1: different as I was saying, Gmail being used, but like

601
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: having a separate Gmail account and using a private browser

602
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: and all these things that Like it's like you were saying,

603
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: it's a lot to ask of someone to know that

604
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: they need to do this.

605
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the which we shouldn't be asking this of people,

606
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 3: like you shouldn't have to be a digital security expert

607
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: just to make choices for your health. You shouldn't have

608
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 3: to know how to parse corporations public pr speak from

609
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 3: what they're actually doing. Like that is a lot for

610
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 3: someone to have to navigate. And so right after Roe

611
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: was overturned, we did an episode of There Are No

612
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 3: Girls on the Internet with a computer scientist and digital

613
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 3: security expert, doctor Jen Golbeck. If you know that name,

614
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 3: maybe you've seen her popular TikTok series educating people on

615
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 3: how to be more secure when navigating abortion information online.

616
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 3: I should tell you, like, I am not a lawyer,

617
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 3: I am at a digital security expert, So I want

618
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 3: to be clear about that. But I wanted to, just

619
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 3: if it's possible, play a little clip of what she

620
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 3: told me, because she is the expert. I don't want

621
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 3: to like summarize what she said. So you know, you've

622
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 3: mentioned a couple of like really great tips for folks

623
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 3: if you're if you're you know it, looking for abortion

624
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 3: pills and you want to do it, you know in

625
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 3: a way that you're going to be less likely to

626
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 3: be tracked, you know, using a tour browser, using incognito

627
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 3: mode when you search using.

628
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 5: Public Wi Fi.

629
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: Are there other tips that you want to shout out

630
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: for folks if you if they if they might need

631
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 3: this information.

632
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,800
Speaker 5: So that's all important stuff, I would say for sure.

633
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 7: The most important one is that you are not paying

634
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 7: with a credit card or a debit card connected to

635
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 7: your name, So figure out how much your medication is

636
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 7: going to cost. Use cash by like a Visa Vanilla

637
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 7: gift card, which you can get anywhere for that amount,

638
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 7: and then pay with a Visa Vanilla gift card. So

639
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 7: much of how we're tracked is through credit card number,

640
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 7: so definitely do that. And the other way that we're

641
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 7: really easily tracked is through email address. So set up

642
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 7: a fresh email address that you are only using to

643
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,400
Speaker 7: buy this abortion medication. Proton mail is the one site

644
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 7: that I recommended for this. It's free, it's encrypted, it's

645
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 7: really good and secure. You can just set up an

646
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 7: email address, use it to buyer medicine, don't use it

647
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 7: for anything else. If you do that, gift card fresh

648
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 7: email address on something like proton mail. You know, I

649
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 7: love Gmail, I use it right, but they track the

650
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 7: hell out of.

651
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 5: You on Gmail.

652
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 7: So proton mail email address, Vanilla gift card. You get

653
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 7: a eighty percent of the protection from tracking just from

654
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 7: those two measures, So you know that's easy and accessible

655
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 7: to anybody.

656
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 5: Definitely do that.

657
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, but she doesn't speak to like a map,

658
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: location data. And I think that's an interesting point that

659
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 3: when we were having conversations about how to stay secure,

660
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 3: it was really like searching things, paying for things. But

661
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: I guess it stands to reason that in twenty twenty

662
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 3: three you might be using Google Maps to access just

663
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,520
Speaker 3: like where am I going if I need to go

664
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 3: to go get an abortion, like where am I headed?

665
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 3: And it kind of reminds me of like the throwback idea,

666
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: how before the ubiquity of things like GPS, you had to.

667
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 5: Just know where you were going.

668
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: And I certainly there are places that I've been multiple

669
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 3: times in my life. I could get there through muscle memory.

670
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: Now with GPS, I'm like, oh, how do I get there?

671
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 3: And Yeah, it's just a good reminder of how much

672
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 3: these platforms like Google have become commonplace in our life,

673
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 3: and how they've gotten between us and the things that

674
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 3: we need to do, and.

675
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 5: We don't even we don't even necessarily really think.

676
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: About it, right, it's it's like a part of your

677
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: every day. It's like, how I'm not going to get

678
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: out a map. I often remember this time I had

679
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 1: to like proNT out a map quest page to go

680
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: meet a friend and I could never find her, and

681
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: my dad and I got in a huge fight about it.

682
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: I was like, this is what the map quests.

683
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 1: But now it's just like part of her every day

684
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: life and we don't think about it until it goes away,

685
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: and then you realize, like how much you rely on

686
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And that's true with this the

687
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,640
Speaker 1: clip that you just played of like you know, email

688
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: and using your credit card and your debit card, and

689
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: it kind of it bums me out because it felt

690
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: so much like how I went about downloading music illegally

691
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: for a while. And this is like a health procedure,

692
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: Like yeahal health procedure, and we're treating.

693
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 2: It like I'm on lime wire and the middle.

694
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 4: Ratle Wow throw it back.

695
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 8: Yeah.

696
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 4: I'm thinking about how people get the season desist from

697
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,439
Speaker 4: fbis for downloading movies today and even maybe a knock

698
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,359
Speaker 4: on the door. They go to that level just for

699
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 4: a movie. Don't get me wrong, you know whatever capitalism

700
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 4: it is where it is. But all the stuff that

701
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 4: I'm thinking about as we're sitting here talking about it,

702
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 4: I'm like, Yeah, I use GPS just to go home,

703
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,359
Speaker 4: and half the time it's because I want to get

704
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 4: traffic information. I need an ATA and I need to

705
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 4: know which was the best route and all these things,

706
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 4: and Google Map is my way to go obviously for

707
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 4: all of that. It's not just for the direction, and

708
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 4: sometimes it's to tell me that something's closed or open

709
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 4: half the time. And I can't imagine not using it

710
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 4: at this point because I'm so reliant on that for

711
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 4: my information, because I don't listen to live broadcast like

712
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,279
Speaker 4: radio when they used to do I guess they still

713
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 4: do traffic and weather and such, but I don't. I

714
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 4: literally say hey, Google, what's this? Something hucks back to

715
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 4: me okay, but you know just how quickly that becomes

716
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 4: the solution. And then hearing her talking about these processes,

717
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 4: it reminds me of trying to do like a spy movie, yeah,

718
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 4: where we have to go get a burner phone with

719
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 4: a burner credit card and make sure that we take

720
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 4: out the chip just in case that that gets followed.

721
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 4: I'm like the links that people are gonna have to

722
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 4: go to and most of the people who are having

723
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 4: to access this type of care do, as you said,

724
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 4: do not know how to do this, probably can't afford

725
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 4: to do some of these things, may not even have

726
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 4: access because we know that vanilla card, I don't buy

727
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 4: that because there's a three dollars fee at the very least,

728
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 4: that pisses me off.

729
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, you're angry about the wrong thing, right, No,

730
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 3: it's a totally a legitimate thing to be angry about.

731
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 3: And I think, like you know, I don't want to

732
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 3: make it sound like I am on like a like

733
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 3: I am so much more digitally secure than you, like,

734
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 3: I don't use these things.

735
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 5: I have a smartphone I could not find I cannot.

736
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 3: Get anywhere without Google Maps. I use these tools regularly.

737
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting that people who are not actively doing

738
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:06,399
Speaker 3: something that is potentially criminalized or illegal should stop using

739
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 3: Google Maps, should stop using Gmail, should should do these things. Right,

740
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 3: that's not necessarily realistic in twenty twenty three. I don't

741
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 3: live my life that way, but I do think it

742
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 3: is worth stepping back and just questioning what we give

743
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 3: up when we get these conveniences in our life and

744
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 3: just having an awareness of that, because yeah, I want

745
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 3: to be able to find the quickest route home, I

746
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: want to be able to avoid traffic. I want to

747
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 3: know if there's a police officer with a scanner there,

748
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 3: or a toll or whatever, or a road closure that

749
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 3: is convenient. That is how that is a convenient way

750
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 3: to live modern life in twenty twenty three. But it's

751
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 3: not just something that I'm being given without a cost.

752
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: And so I think that we should be really aware

753
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 3: and have a really good sense of what those costs are,

754
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 3: because it can be easy to think that there is

755
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 3: no cost and there's no such thing as a free lunch.

756
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 5: There is a cost.

757
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: You know, My dad is someone who does not trust GPS,

758
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 3: so he doesn't have when he gets in the car

759
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 3: to go on a trip, he's got those old.

760
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 5: School big road atlases under his.

761
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,480
Speaker 3: Seat still in twenty twenty three, God love them, and like,

762
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: but it's like as inconvenient as that is, that like

763
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 3: that is he's gaining something, So it's it's it's really

764
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: it's really about all of us making a cost benefit

765
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 3: analysis of what we are giving up versus what we

766
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 3: are getting and not thinking that like, oh, we're just

767
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 3: getting this cool new way to have a modern convenience

768
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:30,520
Speaker 3: in our life that's just coming at no cost for us.

769
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 5: There is a cost and we should be aware of it.

770
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 4: And that's the thing is, like the conversation is, should

771
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 4: there be a cost? Why can't we have access to

772
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 4: these amazing things? Yes, the privacy thing maybe, But even

773
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 4: on top of that, the fact that there is a

774
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 4: chance of being persecuted and prosecuted for a thing that

775
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 4: shouldn't be even a law, you know, to begin with,

776
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 4: and having conversations like people who are going after people

777
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 4: and who they're going after, and we know that these

778
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 4: laws typically go after the marginalized people as well as

779
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,879
Speaker 4: those in the lower or the social economic status. And

780
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 4: it's that that really is the burden of it all,

781
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 4: is that what this is doing is waging a war

782
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 4: and going after and persecuting people who in themselves are

783
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,919
Speaker 4: already down and out. I guess it is the best

784
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 4: way to put it, or already put at the bottom

785
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 4: end of the poll, like they're not having the opportunities

786
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 4: or the ability to even defend themselves. Some of the

787
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 4: cases that have come forward as abortion cases having miscarriages

788
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 4: who have been taken out of context and say they

789
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 4: try to get an abortion and a lot of them

790
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:33,919
Speaker 4: are refugees or in the immigrant status that I've seen

791
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 4: so many stories of that, and they have no way

792
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 4: of defending themselves because they don't get legal help. Typically

793
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 4: the good legal help will say it that way or

794
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 4: even the hearing. And when we talk about people who

795
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 4: are being held for immigration violations, like we've seen so

796
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 4: many conversations, well not enough because it doesn't get publicized

797
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 4: where convictions and things are of that nature coming out

798
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 4: from that or going after people who cannot get good representation.

799
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 4: And again, these laws even though it does affect everyone

800
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 4: and we should all be talking about it, but we

801
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,479
Speaker 4: know that who are truly affected are those who can't

802
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 4: represent themselves and advocate for themselves. And that's the whole conversation,

803
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 4: is what is happening, who is who is doing this?

804
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 4: And why can't we be safe from this? Why can't

805
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,720
Speaker 4: we like this shouldn't be one of the cost benefits.

806
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 4: It shouldn't be one or the other. It should be

807
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 4: that we have the rights to do this and feel

808
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 4: safe at the same time.

809
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:28,799
Speaker 3: I mean, like you put it so well, privacy is

810
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 3: a right. Digital privacy is a right, especially when it

811
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: comes to things that are sensitive like our health information

812
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 3: or health data visiting places like shelters or clinics. We

813
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 3: should have an expectation of privacy around those issues. If

814
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 3: you are someone who is already burdened by being a

815
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 3: marginalized person in society, if you are already burdened by

816
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 3: you know, maybe not having stable housing or not, or

817
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 3: having difficulties in your life on top of that, you

818
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 3: shouldn't have to know what a tore browser is just

819
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 3: to make safe decisions for your because of the whims of.

820
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:02,800
Speaker 5: A company like Google.

821
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 3: But right now, that's the landscape that Google is creating,

822
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: and they have the power and the ability to change that.

823
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 3: They have said they are going to not do that,

824
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,479
Speaker 3: and yet they just aren't. And so I completely agree

825
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 3: with you. I think that Google needs to decide if

826
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 3: they are going to be in the business of creating.

827
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 5: A world where privacy is a right.

828
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 3: And people have the expectation of privacy or not, and

829
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 3: if they're not going to, don't say otherwise. I think

830
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,160
Speaker 3: that's kind of one of the reasons why I get

831
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,240
Speaker 3: so angry about this, is like they're able to enjoy

832
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: this public perception of proactively trying to keep people a

833
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 3: little bit safer while not doing that. So why did

834
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 3: just say it if you weren't going to do it?

835
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 3: You know.

836
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I've been making all this money. I can

837
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,439
Speaker 1: only assume they just really make a lot of money

838
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: off our data.

839
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 3: So they're like, oh, like, I will talk all day.

840
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 3: Let's just say your assumption is correct. Your assumption is very,

841
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 3: very correct. And yeah, I think that, like, we need

842
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 3: to fundamentally change our understanding when it comes to the

843
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 3: relationship between users, our data and platforms. Like the fact

844
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 3: that Google it's so extracted, they take so much from us,

845
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 3: they can lie and misrepresent what they take from us

846
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 3: and how they take it, and they can make billions

847
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: of dollars off of it. Something is wrong with that equation.

848
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 3: We need to fundamentally rethink the relationship that users have

849
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 3: with platforms.

850
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 8: Yes, and there has been some attempts recently to kind

851
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 8: of change the situation.

852
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 5: That's right.

853
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: So just last week, nearly a dozen cent A Democrats

854
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 3: wrote to Google with questions about how it deletes users'

855
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 3: location history when they have visited these sensitive locations like

856
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 3: abortion clinics, expressing concerns that the company may not be

857
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:02,920
Speaker 3: consistently deleting the data as promised. These included Senators Amy Klobachar,

858
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 3: Elizabeth Warren, and Mazie Herano asking for answers from Google

859
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: about the types of locations they consider to be sensitive

860
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 3: and how long it takes for the company to automatically

861
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 3: delete visit history. Again they Google said it was going

862
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,720
Speaker 3: to be quote soon, Accountable Tech found that it hadn't

863
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 3: happened in thirty days after that visit, So, you know,

864
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 3: I think these senators are right to at least get

865
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 3: some clarity about, well, what do you consider soon? And

866
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 3: just a few days ago, Google was sued by an

867
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 3: anonymous complaintant claiming that Google unlawfully collects health data, including

868
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,439
Speaker 3: abortion searches, on third party websites that use Google tech.

869
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 3: Jane Doe, who is the complaintant their legal representation, is

870
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 3: looking to get the case certified as a class action

871
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 3: suit and claims that her private information was intercepted by

872
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 3: Google when she used the scheduling pages on Planned Parenthood's

873
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 3: website in twenty eighteen to search for an abortion provider.

874
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 3: So I think it's interesting that she is trying to

875
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 3: pursue this as a class action litigation because I do

876
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 3: think there is a class of people, like a large

877
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 3: group of people who are facing harm because of Google,

878
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 3: and it's not individuals, it is all of us. We

879
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,879
Speaker 3: are a collective harmed group. And so I really am

880
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 3: interested in the fact that this isn't just.

881
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 5: One person doing Google.

882
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 3: She is trying to do it as a class action

883
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,319
Speaker 3: lawsuit because it is representative, in my opinion, of a

884
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 3: collective harm.

885
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 4: That's interesting because we know that there's some class action

886
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 4: suits happening with Facebook, and it's a pretty big deal

887
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 4: because there's a couple with billions of dollars in hand.

888
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 4: We know that the EU has gone after a couple

889
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 4: of companies as well belowly vis it Twitter for billions

890
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 4: of dollars in fines possibly, But that's what's going to

891
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 4: change anything. We know that it's not actually about humanity,

892
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 4: it's about the money, and if it's going to cost

893
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 4: the money, then they're more likely to do something as

894
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 4: long as they don't have to pay out whatever it

895
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 4: may be, and just ten dollars a few pennies to

896
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 4: millions of people. There's a lot of money, so that's

897
00:44:57,719 --> 00:44:58,839
Speaker 4: actually a smart way to go.

898
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 5: I think Yeah, to just do a quick plug.

899
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,760
Speaker 3: If you are a US resident who used Facebook between

900
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 3: May twenty fourth, two thousand and seven and December twenty second,

901
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, you can file a monetary claim as

902
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 3: long as you do so before August twenty fifth, twenty

903
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 3: twenty three. And so it is. You know, for a

904
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,319
Speaker 3: company like Facebook, it probably won't won't be more than

905
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 3: like a slap on the wrist for them. It probably

906
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,439
Speaker 3: won't be something that they really like feel. But if

907
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 3: you are in the group that I just mentioned, I

908
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 3: absolutely am in that group, and I'm filing for my claim.

909
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 3: I think that anybody listening who was in that group

910
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,439
Speaker 3: should file for their claim because that is the only

911
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 3: way that these companies have. That's the only kind of

912
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: I mean, it makes me sad to say, but like,

913
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 3: we don't have a lot of recourse for companies like

914
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 3: like Meta and Google. There's not much that the average

915
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 3: user can do that will actually make them feel this.

916
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: And one way that we have is hitting them in

917
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 3: their pocketbook. And so, yeah, get your settlement, even if

918
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 3: it's ten dollars, Get your ten dollars and buy yourself

919
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 3: a coffee whatever.

920
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 4: Knowing that it's building up just we're just building up

921
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 4: the cost. And that's the thing is like we see

922
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 4: in so many things we've talked about civil suits when

923
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 4: it comes to like rape cases and sexual assault cases

924
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 4: and why they're important even though so many be like, oh,

925
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 4: you're just trying to go after the money. No, this

926
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 4: is a big deal because we know this is a

927
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 4: form of punishment that is more likely to happen rather

928
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 4: than the guilty not guilty judicial level of punishment. We

929
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 4: know this, So having things like this is really important

930
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 4: because it does make a stand, whether it's big or small.

931
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 4: Same thing with the dominion lawsuit that happened with Fox.

932
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 4: It was a big deal, like people were mad that

933
00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 4: they settled, but that cost really did hit them in

934
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 4: the end. And these types of things. Is this conversation

935
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 4: and it's going to be a precedent of what can

936
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 4: be filed later on because obviously things are building up.

937
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 4: As long as Google holds out and not actually deleting,

938
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 4: they're going to get more cases. If this goes forward

939
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 4: and wins, they're going to get more piled on. And

940
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 4: that's a good thing. A sad thing that it has

941
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 4: to get to that point, but it is a good thing.

942
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 4: So it's something that definitely we should watch definitely.

943
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 3: And you know, one question that I have is how

944
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 3: is it legal for Google to say one thing about

945
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,280
Speaker 3: their privacy policies and do another.

946
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 5: I again, I'm no lawyer.

947
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: I don't know how it is legal, though, Like I

948
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,520
Speaker 3: fully do not understand how Google can mislead the public

949
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 3: about data privacy practices. How that is legal under the

950
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: Federal Trade Commission. I'm the expert.

951
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 5: Don't understand it.

952
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 3: Maybe it's not legal, but whether or not it's illegal,

953
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 3: it is certainly unethical. It is unethical to say one

954
00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 3: thing and do another, and it is certainly unsafe. And

955
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 3: the bottom line is that people deserve privacy and it

956
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 3: shouldn't be up to the whims of the people who

957
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 3: run Google to decide whether or not we get it

958
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 3: or how.

959
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 5: We get it.

960
00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 3: We really need to rethink this this schema where the

961
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 3: people like tech leaders at Google, they are the ones

962
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 3: who decide whether or not we get privacy. People deserve privacy,

963
00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 3: especially when it comes to their health information, full stop, period,

964
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 3: end of sentence.

965
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 4: Right, And I wonder how much the government has done

966
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 4: because they've really taken away a lot of any kind

967
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 4: of power against these companies because we've seen so the

968
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 4: amount of updated agreements in ordering to use anything like

969
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 4: I think I got it for TikTok. I got well, TikTok.

970
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 4: We know they're underflying. We had that episode, but they

971
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 4: had a new agreement. I know Samsung continues to do

972
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 4: it every few months and the amount of privacy is

973
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 4: going away like it's it's interesting how quickly they're changing it.

974
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 4: And there's nothing you can do because you're already sucked

975
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 4: in to that system and that's what Google is doing.

976
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 4: And because of the way that the government has allowed

977
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 4: for these companies to be territorial and to continue to

978
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 4: gather that data. I'm not a conspiracist, but I think

979
00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 4: there's a bit conspiracy behind this and about how much

980
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 4: control they want to have over the individual citizens when

981
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:51,160
Speaker 4: that's concerning.

982
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the I'm with you, you don't

983
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,279
Speaker 3: tell that the conspiracy theorist at all. And I think

984
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: the first thing that we can do is really understand

985
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,360
Speaker 3: and what's being asked of us. And it's not easy

986
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 3: because they don't make it easy.

987
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 5: Like when you.

988
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 3: Get that twenty five page thing that you have to

989
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,280
Speaker 3: scroll down just to like log onto your phone.

990
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,399
Speaker 5: Come on, be real, Like, who is reading that?

991
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 3: Like, I don't false anybody for being like, oh, I'll

992
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 3: just hit agree. But it shouldn't be that way. You

993
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 3: shouldn't have to be a trained lawyer or trained in

994
00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 3: understanding tech speak and have to parse a thirty page

995
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 3: privacy agreement that you have to click through just to

996
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 3: get to your email, just to exist safely online with

997
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,919
Speaker 3: privacy and dignity, like.

998
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 5: People deserve that.

999
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 3: We have created, and we've accepted and tolerated and created

1000
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 3: a system that is so burdenous to the average citizen,

1001
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: and it should not be.

1002
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: That way right right, And.

1003
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: There is so much going on right now in terms

1004
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: of technology and tumultuous times and technology and understanding those

1005
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: kinds of things, and you Bridget are amazing at explaining

1006
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:06,760
Speaker 1: those kinds of things. So we always love having you here.

1007
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: But you're also like breaking down these issues all not

1008
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: without us on your own show.

1009
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 3: Thank you for that little introduction. So yeah, I don't

1010
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 3: know if other folks feel it, but I think in

1011
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 3: this particular moment in time, you know, we always talk

1012
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 3: about this sort of like the future of tech and

1013
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 3: what's next, it feels like we are in that moment today,

1014
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 3: right when it comes to platforms, with the state of

1015
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 3: Twitter and like what new platforms we're going to you know,

1016
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 3: pop up and where a we're all going to spend

1017
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 3: our time digitally, when it comes to conversations about the

1018
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 3: rise of AI, and when it comes to the increasing

1019
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 3: threat of you know, expanding tech surveillance, like we talked

1020
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 3: about today, it feels like a very weird time for

1021
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 3: technology and the Internet and where we're going in the future.

1022
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 3: And it feels like all that future conversation is actually

1023
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 3: here today, and so we're starting we have a new

1024
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 3: season on There Are No Girls on the Internet exploring

1025
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 3: how increasingly it feels like this future of technology is

1026
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 3: happening now, precisely because it is so important that the

1027
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,280
Speaker 3: voices of people who are traditionally left out of these conversations, women,

1028
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 3: people of color, queer folks, disabled folks, working folks are

1029
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 3: not left out of those conversations.

1030
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 5: And so if you want to.

1031
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,239
Speaker 3: Parse what it all means, where we've been and where

1032
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 3: we're going, and what we need to know to make

1033
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 3: sure that our voices are centered in these conversations, please

1034
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 3: check out the new season of My Pod.

1035
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 5: There are no girls on the internet where we are

1036
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:32,200
Speaker 5: doing just that.

1037
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, listeners go check it out. It does feel

1038
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: like we're in the is it Moore's curve? It feels

1039
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 1: like we're in the like real upward.

1040
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 5: For yeah, kind of siry? Good? Like what is it?

1041
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 4: Like?

1042
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 5: Good? She? Is it geometry? What is my curves and stuff? Good?

1043
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 5: Math reference? And wait a minute, wait math?

1044
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 1: You know that might not even be the correct term,

1045
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 1: but I think it is. And if it's not, then

1046
00:51:58,239 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: that's really funny.

1047
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 4: So whatever, Yeah curve.

1048
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, soll we always we love having you, We've missed you,

1049
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 1: and we always take up so much of your time,

1050
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 1: so I appreciate it.

1051
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 2: We could just talk to you forever about all kinds

1052
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 2: of things.

1053
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,640
Speaker 3: Oh my god, the pleasure, the pleasure is so mine.

1054
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 3: This is like, Yeah, I could talk to you guys,

1055
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 3: you all all day because it's just so nice to

1056
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: connect on these issues and I it's nice to be

1057
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 3: able to talk to them with YouTube.

1058
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,799
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, it really is. Well, where can the good

1059
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 2: listeners find you? Well?

1060
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 3: As I said, you can check out my podcast. There

1061
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 3: are no girls on the internet. Wherever you podcast we are, there.

1062
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:38,720
Speaker 5: Can follow me. I'm still on Twitter.

1063
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 3: Kind of at Bridget Marie can follow me on TikTok

1064
00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 3: at Bridget max Pods, I can follow me on Instagram

1065
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 3: at Bridget Marie and DC and I would love to

1066
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 3: have you on any of those platforms.

1067
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 2: Yes, and also beef, Oh yeah, beef.

1068
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 5: Don't don't sleep on beef.

1069
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 3: It's a little bit different than my usual content because

1070
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 3: it's just like so much of my content is like

1071
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 3: heavier and based around the Internet and like just like

1072
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 3: here's what you need to know if you're trying to

1073
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 3: have a good time and just nerd ad on some

1074
00:53:03,719 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 3: historical rivalries like Who's not definitely check out, be super fun.

1075
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: See what's going on in the advice call of World exactly. Yes, Yes, well,

1076
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you so much again for

1077
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,319
Speaker 1: being here, listeners. If you would like to contact us,

1078
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,840
Speaker 1: you can. Our email is Stephani your mom stuff at

1079
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:22,879
Speaker 1: iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter, I'm

1080
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: most Stuff podcast or in instagrament TikTok at Stuff I

1081
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: Never Told you, also on YouTube.

1082
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:28,879
Speaker 2: We do have a book coming out.

1083
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 1: You can pre order it as Stuff you Should Read

1084
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: Books dot com. Thank you as always to our super producer, Christina,

1085
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 1: our executive producer Maya and our contributor Joey.

1086
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,920
Speaker 2: Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff I

1087
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 2: Never told you. Disrection of by Heart Radio.

1088
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check

1089
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:44,800
Speaker 1: out the Heartradio Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to

1090
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: your favorite shows,